Sanguinius Vs Horus Vs Retcons | Was Old Warhammer 40K Lore Better?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 січ 2025
- The greatest Primarch fight of all time wasn't always the same as it is now. In fact, Games Workshop has changed the battle between Sanguinius and Horus quite a few times over the many editions of Warhammer 40K.
From the Rogue Trader era lore to the most recent rendition, in Dan Abnett's masterful end to the Horus Heresy series The End and the Death part 2, we look at the various iterations of this epic fight. Comparing the old lore with the new, and putting to rest some rumors that just won't go away.
I tried as hard as I could to dig up something definitive in the lore to suggest that Sanguinius put a chink in Horus's armor and that chink allowed the Emperor to triumph over Horus, but it was not to be. Perhaps the biggest talking point about the fate of Sanguinius in the Warhammer 40K community is a legend. In-universe Imperial propaganda at best.
If you love Warhammer 40K lore, deep dives, hot takes, and conspiracy theories then subscribe to the channel as that is all I do.
And if you really love what I do you can support the channel by joining as a member, and you'll gain access to some fun perks.
/ @inquisitorromanov
#warhammer #warhammer40K #horushersy #siegeofterra #sanguinius #horuslupercal #gamesworkshop #bloodangels #primarchs #lore
The way I see it Sanguinius whooped regular Horus, and only lost when he was fighting 4 Chaos Gods through him. This “new lore” just solidifies the Angel as the ultimate GOAT of all the Emperor’s Sons.
It took the greatest evil powers of the entire 40k universe simultaneously juicing a brother Primarch to finally put Sanguinius down…it literally took a being who was 4x stronger than the Emperor himself to beat him.
Real talk he is the ultimate heroe
Sanguinis literally cemented his "HIM" status when he defeated a titan, gave the most epic speech ever, held the enternity gate, killed Angron multiple times in their engagement, ripped out his butcher nails, and then demanded he be teleported to the vengeful spirit. Even chaos Horus was like " Yeah this guy easily is the strongest. Gotta get rid of him Asap"
Sanguinis and the blood angels are the goats and I dont even main them
@@majortughjedi9813 word
@@majortughjedi9813 sanguineous just had more plot armor, his legion is mid and he is too tbh, kind of boring even though good in combat. He's got nothing on the khan.
Then he got practically 1 shotted by Horus. Lol. He will never be stronger than Horus
@@ShaneLitterini one shoted becouse horus had 4 chaos dicks in his ass at the time
@@ShaneLitterini My guy, Horus was sitting on his ship jerking off, Sanguinius fought the galaxy’s hardest the entire day then went to fight Horus
As a 25+ year Blood Angel fan, I can tell you there is no better irony and writing than what we got here. It clearly shows the Angel, massively wounded and exhausted, absolutely wrecked Non-Juice Horus. Destroys his armor and goes for killing blow. Then Horus’s ultimate trickery surfaces and just like how the Emperor “healed” and repaired those around him when he shed the Dark King aura, Horus’ life bar essentially fills back up for round 2. Except that now he is godlike and surpasses even the Emperor in power. Sanguinius had no chance and still showed Horus just how good he still was.
The imperial propaganda part makes perfect sense and makes me laugh a little. How fitting.
By the Blood 🩸
its better now. Period. Horus was unstoppable. Thats the idea.
100%
Exactly like he was supposed to be because otherwise what’s the point 😭😭😭
And then he died by the hands of his father....so....what was this part of him being unstoppable....well?
It's has to be done also since they planned to bring back all loyalist primarch at some point they need the Angel to be Humanized for some reason he's just too likable and powerful for them.
They'll bring Horus and Sangy back too, eventually
30 plus years and I still wasn't ready for that fight.
Right there’s with you
I got into this about 2 years ago. I feel lucky to have a huge backlog of ready-made greatness!
@@Erebusdidnothingwrongish it’s insane how much there is to dive into. I’ve read well over a hundred books over the years and haven’t even put a dent in the total amount of lore.
@ I'm at about 60-80 books in. I work as a doorman doing security, looking mean, but herding out with one headphone in. I think my boss thinks it's for the radio system lol. Mean looking scared face nerd. That's me and happy to be that way 💯🇬🇧❤️ ps.. I would like a longish obscure audiobook 40K to try. I have hammered to crime 40K recently. King of the spoil was the last book. Any thoughts. I have not read much tau ork or eldari ✌️All prise to Space King!
Sanguinius really gets worked over in the new lore, it kinda crushes me to see him so brutalized, even though I don't greatly love Sanguinius.
After all that...I had no choice but to love Sanginius. I was an actual Blood Angels/Sanguinius hater for 20+ years as they were my main foe on the tabletop.
Now, I am fully converted. Probably gonna start celebrating Sanguinalla.
I dont think so. Sanguinius was already hurt pretty bad and still managed to rolfstomp Horus until he went all super saiyan with the Chaos Juice. Sanguinius absolutely wrecks non-Chaos Horus, and it wouldnt even have been close.
Blood Angels fans confirmed as Fraudulent
I’m watching the Emperor kill Horus after this. This makes my blood rage
6:39 It was today I learned Jack Black did a background cameo on the artwork for Unremembered Empire.
The original lore wouldnt have worked in the horus heresy series. It was far too cheesy
@@cmarsh9988 care to elaborate? What specifically was cheesy? And what do you mean by cheesy?
Isn't Warhammer cheesy?
Always has been absolutely cheese 🧀 but that’s part of the fun of it.
Its over the top. “Space King” is pure parody
I agree but it’s mainly that it doesn’t make sense because Horus was obviously suppose to be way beyond Sangy atp! So to have Horus wounded wouldn’t make any sense, the new lore is way better imo (same with Horus vs Big E too)!
peak content. More subs deserved
Thanks so much, really appreciate that!
Here’s why they retconnned it - either they did it to make his death not matter so his sons get the black rage from that worthless psychic death - if he died Nobly then maybe it lessens their rage or his rage and they are more like….well it was worth it in the end and he thought his death was worth it so no giant psychic shockwaves or anger.
Which audio book did you listen to this from?
The End and The Death part 2, and some from part 3 for the recent lore. All the older stuff was out of codices and rulebooks, etc.
Great vid, I love that the old lore propaganda of Sangy’s sacrifice still lives on in lore and in our world. Again it shows that faith is a good weapon even if it’s rooted in lies!
I'm a warhammer 40k noob, but I really love the new lore and agree that it expands the story.
Awesome! I think they're working on brining us something very special. Warhammer 40K is about to turn 40.
Go back to Harry potter, dork. The new lore sucks and is not good.
Sanguinius died for us all!
I wonder, if we see the Loyalists Primarhes and others. Talk to Sanguinius body one by one to say their goodbyes, to their beloved angel brother. But what do you guys think? 😢
No
@@mr.raider7865Okay, why?
Well, Dorn and Valdor at least get to say some goodbyes. Though they don't get all sentimental for regular humans, they show they aren't quite as stoic as they're made out to be. Valdor even goes so far as to say he didn't hate Sanguinius, though he tried his damnedest to hate him...and that's about as sappy and sentimental as it gets.
@@vontheunknown7982 why would we? We honestly have more important shit to be reading about considering most of the primarches barely see each other as related, so it wouldn't really be as impactful as you are thinking.
@@mr.raider7865It wouldn't have taken that long, just a simple morning of a hero and that's it. Warhammer books are long as it is if you have a if you have a problem with then that's just you
Though there might be a chance Sanginius may return when the shards are all formed, I'm more curious about how they will bring back Horus, but what are your thoughts on Horus possible return? I know there are people that don't want him to return, but there are discussions that his return may be great and necessary because it would be an awesome redemption arc. While literally everyone and everything is against him, he would try his soul-crushing best to make things right and return to his father. I think it would be great that if he returns, he would have the same small, weak, skrawny body that he had in his youth.
I would love Horus to return. I absolutely love the character, he’s awesome and I find it so telling that they changed it where he’s no longer obliterated. Big E just killed him, but it doesn’t say his soul was nuked.
I say bring him back! 40K will he 40 in a couple of years…less even. They’re going to give us something big.
MY LIEGE!!!!! *drops weapons, eyes go black, fangs & claws grow longer, savagely bites toward the closest throat(friend or foe), howling in pain*
Bybthe Blood🩸🩸🩸!
So Horus Reached through the warp to grab Sanguinius's ankle? or did i miss understand that bit?
Yes. He grabbed the ankle by tearing through the 8th dimension apparently. I took that as one way of describing warp shenanigans.
@@InquisitorRomanov Thats how my mind saw it.😁Nice reading BTW good voice inflection. may i suggest you EQ out a little of the high end as your S's were a bit spikey.
Dante talks to Sanguinius's soul in Devastation of Bal. I doubt GW is going bring him back unless they're really desperate but his soul is still in the warp it's most likely fragmented due to dying in place that has a high concentration of chaos.
If anything Horus and Sanguinius are in similar circumstances, their souls fragmented so it's hard to fully bring them back. But I'd say it's probably easier to bring Sangy back due to less of his being tied to chaos
It was only one aspect of his shattered soul…is how I read that. It goes deeper into it in Darkness in the Blood too. Mephiston, Dante, Sanguinor…all seem to have a bit.
But also TEATD let us see his consciousness sharded and rain down like spears, causing the the Black Rage.
@InquisitorRomanov I do agree that his soul is shattered, it's even implied that the Vengeful spirit has a piece too. I'm just saying it's not impossible to bring him back it's just hella difficult.
Old warhammer is warhammer, it’s the thing that got GW to this point and it is better. New Warhammer is simply wearing a skin suit. I was looking forward to the end and the death however it was disappointing considering it was covering one of the most climactic moments within warhammer.
Anyone who legit hates Sanguinius can't be trusted
Isn't that an Alpharius quote?
40k used to be just a setting for a wargame. It then got turned into a “media property”. What works for one won’t necessarily work for the other. I feel like it’s a better “IP” now but a worse wargame setting due to being less wide open and more nailed down.
Very well said. I love this fleshed out grimdark universe, and all the setting, but I miss the tiny company with the super underground weird game I was into.
Tetcons sick. Retcon GW.
Nar, don't agree, less is more. But I still really liked your video, thank you.
Fair enough, I can certainly see why you feel that way.
Every person who read the Siege of Terra novels and has basic reading comprehension considers the new lore better. There's a couple of things I'd have changed but overall it's much better than the original. People who believe otherwise have either not read it or they are coping.
Not according to these comments
@InquisitorRomanov Most comments I read agree that it's better now.
Yeah, there’s really a few on here where people like the old lore. But it is rare…true.
I was a bit shocked myself. After reading through all that old lore when making this video I was shocked at how vague and unrefined it all was. Like literally the very first mention of Sanguinius was a one liner stating he died. WTF?!
Yeah the new lore is miles beyond the old, I agree 100%. But it still had people shilling for it like it was better.
I mean we’re literally comparing a single sentence or a couple throw away paragraphs to an entire series of novels. Exceptionally deep and long novels too.
Sorry if my last comment came across the wrong way…I agree with you totally.
But yeah, some folks have said they like the old stuff better.
This isn’t the chaos gods oh the power is but this is all Horus . The pettiness the sneering resentment the raging insecurity in this we see that despite Horus professed love for Sanguinus that to was a lie mired in jealousy. I believe it started way back when Sanguinus was under Horus wing on the vengeful spirit the charm the courage the compassion the grace Horus noticed how even his own sons l loved and admired him hell even Abbadon was besotted by him . This where I believe it started and what made it worse the most savage cut was that Horus knew in his heart that Sanguinus loved and respected him .He knew that his hidden hatred of sanguinus was a coping mechanism for his own self hatred and that was unforgivable. Sanguinus had even taken his hate from him ..I don’t think this was chaos corruption I think this that Sanguinus humiliated and broken was the price that Horus demanded of the chaos gods Even then Sanguinus couldn’t even give him that .By forcing him to kill Sanguinus he denied Horus the grand gesture of forgiveness for all Sanguinus perceived crimes against him. Bloody hell did I just try and psychoanalyse made up space gods sorry I must still be drunk lol
It happens. I mean, they certainly all could use some therapy.
@ lol I think as fans we forget that 40k was conceived by young guys on a few rainy nights in Nottingham over probably copious amounts of alcohol. Curry and cannabis where they ran with the idea of a universe inspired by frank Herberts Dune ,Tolkien and for some unknown reason Miltons paradise lost . Warhammer 40k is basically a conversation that happens between a bunch of friends who are very drunk very high probably both that has gotten extremely out of hand lol all of these decades later we fans are trying to find some underlying philosophical meaning to what is basically the ramblings of a bunch drunken nerds lol Think about it the concept space marines ( when authors really think about it they come up with names like Sardukar or Jedi or Dorsai not our lovable nerds marines are cool right but marines in space how cool is that) but the concept of an 8ft tall angry space man is like something Napoleon Dynamite would come up with so all the plot holes are probably not part of some cynical hidden agenda it’s probably that nobody expected it to last this long or get this big lol
That is a very good point. I mean, here we are 38 years into 40K, and I don't know about you but I have smoked my self stupid tonight...yeah, I remember seeing the Rogue Trader rulebook and the Space Marines kit, and the first Land Raider kit and thinking oh wow, finally a game where I can play Star Wars vs. Aliens vs. all the other sci-fi franchises.
But I still to this day believe that they took the most from Michael Moorcock and they literally owe him a billion dollars.
@@InquisitorRomanov lol certainly the chaos part and the similarities in appearance of Fulgrim and a certain Elric of Melniboné cmon their not even trying to hide it lol
Yes it was!
I think the way theyve progressed the story and altered it, especially the way they've made the Emperor into a villian really bothers me!
You were not paying attention if you think anything has changed in that regard.
The Emperor is the single greatest villain in al of fiction....and has been for at least 27 years now.
@@jamesmaybrick6750 are you blind??? The Emperor is clearly "evil". He's an awful father, and absent leader, and first class manipulator.
@@InquisitorRomanovdude, how is countering the gods of chaos, which are evil and disgusting, to preserve humanity, evil?
@@regularrory4692 You can be a villain despite having noble intentions. The Emperor did mean well, that I do not doubt but he's similar to a guy like Magneto. The Emperor firmly believes the means will be justified by the end. This does cause him to stray into morally grey territory at best, and down right evil at worst. I mean the man literally enslaved Angron and forced him to watch his comrades die, he lied and manipulated others to do his bidding, among countless other things.
Yeah the ending with Horus and the emperor that was horrible
I don’t get how one just changes the lore of a battle? It’s kinda insane
Yeah, but the thing is, in a way we are only just now finally getting the actual lore. All the old books, for years, told us the end result...but nothing ever detailed the battle between the Angel and the Lupercal. It was there, but never described, just talked about in a past tense. But it is actually insane, you're right about that, that they did what they did with it...especially after making us think certain things for so long. I love how they pulled the rug out from under us.
Untrustworthy narrator gives GW a lot of wiggling room in terms of changes to lore whether its adding or taking away certain things. So I the future this could all change
@@InquisitorRomanov Honestly, even apart from all that, which is totally fair, the initial seeds of this are so old that I don't really hold it against them to modify certain things later. I think it is fair that with a few decades of hindsight, they might feel like they have a slightly better idea of how to handle certain things. And, like you say, it's not like it was all that detailed or explicit in the first place.
you make a distinction in this video between fluff and lore, but there's no difference and the terms are actually interchangeable with fluff being preferred by most warhammer enjoyers. a couple of people have said online that fluff is somehow less developed or less serious than lore, but that's just their opinions and seems to be a very recent invention. i've always said fluff, as has everyone i know who's into warhammer, to mean background lore & in-universe events. it's a fandom-specific term that should be preserved in my opinion so whenever you think lore, say fluff ;)
to the point of the video subject though, yeah the abnett version of the fight is the best. expertly done. the whole chink in the armour thing isn't necessary to the story really, emps was stronger than horus without there being a "weak spot in his armour" as evidenced by him not wanting to use his full power out of sentimentality. as a sidenote, the second person narrative is a great touch
I said fluff for decades. But I find the term too flippant now.
Yeah, that second person narrative really makes it. Masterfully done now, where the older versions really just read like little blurbs out of a rulebook.
@@InquisitorRomanov fair enough, i find the term "lore" to be quite self-serious so it goes both ways really. maybe we need an intermediate term between the two. "flore"? "loff"? actually never mind :/
Wow all the Sanguinius haters really rallied to this video. That's crazy. You can love more than 1 Primarch y'all lmao
It is astounding how tribal people become over their fictional heroic preferences. My primarch tier list video got me death threats.
@@InquisitorRomanov Seriously? That's insane. Sorry that happened bro that's actually terrifying. Some people really suffer from having nothing better to do
Guilliman fans. I figured it was really just some 12 year olds who just learned about Space Marine 2 and was acting edgy, and not real life ninjas...but you never know.
Personally, I think Sanguinius was stupid, and selfish. He was a pretty boy, who was really a vicious, genocidal maniac, like his creator, hiding behind a veneer of respectability and charisma. He marched off to be killed by Horus, when there was nothing forcing him to do so. He made no attempt to change things, and was seemingly too stupid to know that the future is fluid, and he could only see a certain amount of them, like his creator. If he saw his death, he should've also seen what his short-sighted, useless martyrdom would do to his legion, cursing them, forever. They can thank him for the Black Rage, just as they can thank the Corpse Emperor for the Red Thirst. Konrad Curze was just as dumb, literally sitting there and letting a nobody kill him, just to prove a point. Doc Brown from Back to the Future was smarter than Sanguinius. When he saw himself gunned down in the future, he bought a ballistic vest. Also, as far as I know, Sanguinius' essence was not destroyed; it's imprisoned onboard the Vengeful Sprit, trapped by the Warp.
No...the crystalline statues that materialize and dematerialize on the Vengeful Spirit are not trapped souls, just warp echos.
Also, why so spicy about other people loving Sanguinius? Oh, I get it...you're Guilliman. Of course you'd feel that way. He steals your thunder, but it's okay. People love you too Bobby G. No need to be jealous.
@@InquisitorRomanov remember, supposedly the Primarchs didn't have souls; they were essences captured from the Warp by the Corpse Emperor, and installed into genetically engineered bodies. That's why a lot of people believe they could be brought back, if you could just figure out the process that the Corpse Emperor used. As for Guilliman, he loved Sanguinius. Don't know why.
Because Sanguinius is absolutely awesome. I'd say that's why. But it really did take 25 years or more of hating on Blood Angels (as my hated foe on the tabletop) and my friend dying and painting an army in his honor...now I get them and their primarch. But I was on team Sanguinius sucks from the 90's through just a couple years ago. So I really do get both perspectives...and felt just like you do for a long time, I was pretty much just talking shit earlier. Funny how I'll shill for the Angel now, lol!
@@InquisitorRomanov nah. He's one of the worst. I'd put him in the same category as Angron. Just as Angron cursed his sons with the Butchers Nails, Sanguinius cursed his with his mindless rage. Not only that, a mindless rage that will almost guaranteed get them driven insane and killed. He might even be as bad as Perturabo, who killed his own sons by decimation. It's unforgivable. The man knew he would curse his gene sons for generations to come, in perpetuity, all because he mindlessly followed "fate". Angron did it, because he was insane, and the Corpse Emperor did everything in his power to make it worse. Perterabo did it, because he only cared about himself, and cared nothing about his sons, since they didn't meet his idiotic standards. Sanguinius? He did it, because he just didn't care. That's pure evil, just like the Corpse Emperor. He hides behind a face of respectability and nobility, like the Corpse Emperor, when he's anything but. He was a selfish, psychopathic, hypocritical, bloodthirsty killer.
@@RobouteGuilliman-M41 Wow that's a really bad take Bobby G
Anyone who has read the Horus Heresy knows that the new stuff is ten thousand times darker than the old stuff. It makes classic 40k look like a screwball comedy. Ten thousand times darker, forty thousand times grimmer. It isn’t even worth comparing. Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau and I talked it over and we are in agreement.
I stand right there with you guys. Funny enough in my last video’s comments someone said it isn’t grimdark anymore.
Um actually the most tragic part of Warhammer history would be when FULGRUM cheated in a duel against the beloved general primarch Ferrus Manus. ( The gorgon) . I can't believe that people love sanguinis simply because he looks cool and acts like a hero. A true hero (like ferrus Manus) would lay his life down for those around him ( like ferrus). Sanguinis only fought Horus because he wanted to save his father.( Selfish personal gain) In contrast ferrus is more of a hero than sanguinis because of his superior humility and eagerness to self sacrifice for the betterment of his fellows and not just his own father. So truly sanguinis is not nearly as heroic as ferrus Manus and so that trait is beloved without merit at all.
Nice! One of the first Sons of the Gorgon to rear his head on the channel. You guys are rare indeed.
I agree with you about Ferrus, disagree with you about Sanguinius. Weird how people are so tribal in the 40K community. Can’t we love them both?
But to be fair, I hated Sanguinius with a passion from 1990’s until just a few years ago. I fully understand why people don’t like him.
But I didn’t find Ferrus Manus’ death tragic, except tragic for Fulgrim. Manus died like a boss. On his feet, fighting like a Primarch to the end. That’s how he’d want to go. How any warrior would want to go…
Not tragic at all. Sanguinius died in denial, fighting against his known fate and had his soul destroyed…super tragic.
Such a hateful comment towards a Primarch that went to fight against the most horrible monster that universe had to offer