Snow, the most notorious villain of the Artosis cinematic universe, going against the superhero Light, redeemer of all Terrans - it could only be epic!
What's going to be next? An infested Terran win? Seriously though, I've never favorited a game on this channel in the past, I couldn't favorite this match fast enough.
Not in a normal macro game, generally. Like you see in this VOD, it has to catch them off guard or come at just the right timing. I'm not sure if the deep 6 strat is still viable in today's TvP meta, but it's been used before as a strategy vs fast thirds from Protoss. Notably, the games where I've seen deep 6 work is when the Terran also builds a turret ring before dropping 5 additional rax
Bio loses unless you can keep Reavers off the field, which Light barely managed to do with his handful of Wraiths. If Wraiths died this would pretty much be over.
He means you can't play a long macro game as bio vs protoss, which there is a lot of truth to, although there are exceptions if you get the perfect map for it an an extraordinary player. He knows about bio all ins. This was an innovative variant of a concept Artosis knows about, which is the bio all in vs Protoss.
I like the point Artosis makes in the beginning. Winning the tournament doesn't make you the best player, it makes you the tournament champion. Pretty much by definition of what it means to be good, the best player is FAVORED to win the tournament or any individual matchup (and not even necessarily so if their matchups are uneven), but in a 24-player tournament it could well be that the best player is 10% likely to win the whole thing, say (while the second-best would be at mere 9%). If you look at Chess communities for instance, they have no trouble calling Magnus Carlsen the best player even though he didn't even participate in the championships this year.
Magnus Carlsen has a very decorated and successful career, quite possibly the most in Chess history, and is an EXTREMELY consistent player. i would say Light is definitely an extremely, extremely good player, but a part of being a good player is being _consistent_ and getting big and defining wins under your belt. you can say someone is "favored" all you like but that doesnt actually mean anything if it's not put into practice. Light definitely _has_ these defining wins for his career, against Soma, against Best, against Bisu, Stork, Rain, Action, Jaedong, Snow, Soulkey, and more. but the whole idea of someone being "favored" just isnt really a reasonable or useful concept on its own, imo.
@@Templarfreakwhat you are saying is right imo. When Flash plays ASL, he is favored but he is also delivering by winning consistently. Thats what makes him the best.
@@Templarfreak But what if nobody in the whole world is "consistent" in the way you mean? Then no one is best? There is no player so good that he can "consistently" beat other top players, except Flash (and even he isn't so good at the moment, still being relatively out of practice). It is emphatically not true that Magnus Carlsen consistently beats other top chess players. He usually draws, and in any given game, he might win or lose. It's only in long matches with lots of games that he consistently comes out on top, because he is slightly better than his opponent. In the same way, over long stretches of games, Light consistently beats other top players on average. That's what makes him the best. Or in other words, if he's not the best, who is better?
Light is a demon. Unbelievable to see how precisely he used 3 wraiths at any given point while also maneuvering MM around like that. I don’t see many players being able to pull off that degree of control or macro against a player like snow. Like I don’t fundamentally understand how he (or any one for that matter) can execute that so well.
I think it's more of a surprise than anything else. Similar to how JyJ won the first game vs Soulkey on ASL16. The one makes something completely different to what his opponent believes.
Artosis I think it would be nice to get like a 30-60s summary of the game at the end with closing thoughts. Maybe most people wouldn’t watch but I’d be interested to hear your recap and overall takeaways.
Summary of bio play vs toss: - Build primarily used to catch the Protoss off-guard - Can be effective if Protoss doesn't scout, is greedy or is going carriers - If scouted, HTs and reavers annihilate bio - Essentially an all-in as there is no transition potential (no factories) - Wraiths added here are more unique and attempt to counter reaver play - Major disadvantage is the extremely high apm/skill required to control 3 distinct unit groups of wraths, bio and tanks. Key points of game: - After zealot pressure ended, they were approximately even in economy (only 4 probes more, equivalent to a standard opening) - 11:05 minor trade advantage for T, 2 free goons - Elimination of 4th base of Protoss inconsequential, not many probes lost and Snow only needs to survive the attack. - 11:35 minor trade advantage for T - 13:00 start of the engagement favours T, then trades even out as the battle progresses. P army is scattered across 3 areas of the map and hence not trading as efficiently. - Snow needed a few better scarabs to connect with clumps of marines keep the game in check - its not obvious but Light is trying extremely hard to maneouver his marines away from scarabs, or only letting scarabs kill 1-2 at a time. Scarabs only get good connections past 13 mins. Light victory: 4/5 Strategy (unscouted but Snow already has reaver tech) 5/5 Execution (insanely difficult)
It takes a lot of mind games, otherwise protoss will crush it every time when it comes to bio vs protoss. Mech vs zerg used to be quite common and it's still strong except at the highest level.
Wow that was different and exciting! It makes me feel like it's a shame that bio is not a legitimate option against Protoss. But still nice to know once in a while it can be brought in with the right mind games. The way siege tanks, bio, and wraiths were mixed together to counter reavers as best as they could was very impressive and interesting.
Marines would need to receive some buffs and probably Ghosts as well so they can support Marines vs Reavers. But it aint gonna happen cause Brood War never gets balance patches
Now as I think, marines + tanks can kinda work vs protoss, since tanks counter reavers, while marines counter zealots even better than vultures, and counter dragoons as well; their damage output is so high. Of course you need wraiths or goliaths to counter shuttles
Here's a perfect example. Soulkey just won ASL But Ample (who isn't even a top Terran player) demolished Soulkey in SCSL just a month ago. Winning a tournament doesn't you the "best".... sometimes, the stars just aligns in your favor
Once Light had a position behind bridges one option he could have chosen is 2 dropships and drop mnm into main probe line, its tough for pvt to respond properly and its not even much investment for light. What a nice versatile build
Missed this when it came out. What a beautiful game. Such interesting compositions and interactions. One of my favourite games I've watched in a while!
S rank game! And the wraiths, oh my GOODNESS. SO MUCH VALUE from those wraiths! So many observers and shuttles shut down. And the tank leap frogging and such a FAST PUSH from Light! AMAZING GAME!!!
Tanks kept Reavers at bay and shelled the buildings, the marines mostly deal with zealots and provided a meat shield for the tanks... the real mvps were the wraiths tho sniping shuttles.
They sure did, ive read about it somewhere, except the Wraith part. They intended the use of Tank+M&M to be the main army composition, but they didnt take the power of Reavers and Storm into account.
@@stambe8605 Well I bet they did indeed think cloaked wraiths would counter reavers in shuttles or at least make it hard to use, and that science vessels with EMP would counter high templars and ghosts with lockdown would counter carriers. In fact this, along with a lot of drop ships, is exactly what Heartcutter always advocated as the best or correct way to play terran. He called it 'Deep 6' because he would fast expand (for the era) and crank out 6 barracks and 2 factories and a starport or 2. He only built 1 wraith, to deter reavers and scout with, then rushed up to science facility to get science vessels and ghosts with lockdown for his end game comp. He got some pretty decent wins against good competition for the time, talking like 2000-2002ish. But even then Koreans were showing that mech was the easier way to play so his style never caught on, but it was nostalgic to see Light bringing a version of it back.
@@nHautamaki you realise how micro intensive would it be to play that way, how easy to lose as well one bad engage and you're done, emp is so slow that probably templars could use storm anyway ghost don't do well against toss anyway
I have always wondered in TvP where the wraiths are used like in this game more often. Even if P went Arbiter as well, a few wraiths can sneak by and snipe them down if they dare try to Recall into the main/expansions.
What a strong push! Light, well done! Haven’t seen strong wraith played like this before to stop Shuttles and Reavers. It really helped out the team very efficiently. Nice game for both players!
Nothing has hyped me quite as much as this game. That was beautiful. Btw Reaver aint the main problem for M&M, its the freaking Shuttle. Without Shuttles, playing around Reavers would be MUCH MUCH easier when using bio.
Awesome game. Love watching stimmed marines shred zealots. Also, does this necessarily have to be an all-in? Even if it doesn't kill toss, it could at least do serious damage to them and prevent them from expanding. Meanwhile while they're on the backfoot terran can tech up and expand?
The fun thing is that bio absolutely melts protoss units. I remember some games on blue storm where bio was used against carrier and absolutely shredded interceptors. Pity that marines die so quickly to reavers and storms.
WAIT WAIT WAIT, wasn't it 76 or *probably/perhaps* it was that slightly other 'side-by-side' main bases map that the Protoss to Terran (cam't remember his name) went full Wraiths into later drops on the high platforms in the last A.S.L.
Snow, the most notorious villain of the Artosis cinematic universe, going against the superhero Light, redeemer of all Terrans - it could only be epic!
Doesn’t get any better than this. Intense and entertaining game played at the highest level.
i never saw this kind of stuff in SC2 and it was always so sad. SC is a funner game to observe
@@Spazzfrom.1989 never paid much attention to SC2. 🤷♂️
it actually worked lol. the wraiths are the glue that held it together
Yeah that is the harder part of this build, keeping those 3 wraiths alive all game to continue to kill shuttles.
goliaths instead of wraiths could probably work, too@@JoshDragRace0688
Which is why this isn't going to become the "meta". Few Terrans have the control to pull it off. @@JoshDragRace0688
lot of good observer snipes, some off-screen
Leta is coming back boys!
Artosis: You can't go bio in Pvt.
Light: and I took that as a challenge.
It's not really a bio at all. More like Marine meatshield + ground Mech. Lot of noob players all go for this build. Marine into tanks and push out.
@MarcoAshford lmao why you gotta call me out like that. Terran is not my main tho, my monkey toss brain just wants to pump marines and tanks.
Wow what an incredible gem of a game--thank you arty!!!!!
What's going to be next? An infested Terran win? Seriously though, I've never favorited a game on this channel in the past, I couldn't favorite this match fast enough.
I love that this happened to Snow of all ppl, after he did that nasty Scout play vs Arty.
Yeah, he deserved a beating like this.
arty explaining why you can't go bio vs toss only for Light to go bio vs toss
Not in a normal macro game, generally. Like you see in this VOD, it has to catch them off guard or come at just the right timing. I'm not sure if the deep 6 strat is still viable in today's TvP meta, but it's been used before as a strategy vs fast thirds from Protoss. Notably, the games where I've seen deep 6 work is when the Terran also builds a turret ring before dropping 5 additional rax
Bio loses unless you can keep Reavers off the field, which Light barely managed to do with his handful of Wraiths. If Wraiths died this would pretty much be over.
a couple corsairs turn the tide in this game - but he didn't make any air @@Appletank8
@@vitaminamulti Pretty much, yeah. Snow liked his Reaver play more, and didn't make the switch until it was too late.
He means you can't play a long macro game as bio vs protoss, which there is a lot of truth to, although there are exceptions if you get the perfect map for it an an extraordinary player. He knows about bio all ins. This was an innovative variant of a concept Artosis knows about, which is the bio all in vs Protoss.
That was WILD! Eliminating Snow with Terrans so fast with such an unorthodox build! WOW!
I like the point Artosis makes in the beginning. Winning the tournament doesn't make you the best player, it makes you the tournament champion. Pretty much by definition of what it means to be good, the best player is FAVORED to win the tournament or any individual matchup (and not even necessarily so if their matchups are uneven), but in a 24-player tournament it could well be that the best player is 10% likely to win the whole thing, say (while the second-best would be at mere 9%). If you look at Chess communities for instance, they have no trouble calling Magnus Carlsen the best player even though he didn't even participate in the championships this year.
Magnus Carlsen has a very decorated and successful career, quite possibly the most in Chess history, and is an EXTREMELY consistent player. i would say Light is definitely an extremely, extremely good player, but a part of being a good player is being _consistent_ and getting big and defining wins under your belt. you can say someone is "favored" all you like but that doesnt actually mean anything if it's not put into practice. Light definitely _has_ these defining wins for his career, against Soma, against Best, against Bisu, Stork, Rain, Action, Jaedong, Snow, Soulkey, and more. but the whole idea of someone being "favored" just isnt really a reasonable or useful concept on its own, imo.
@@Templarfreakwhat you are saying is right imo. When Flash plays ASL, he is favored but he is also delivering by winning consistently. Thats what makes him the best.
A big change in ASL last years has been bo1 instead of bo3. Much more chance and opportunity to get a quick win and advance
@@Templarfreak But what if nobody in the whole world is "consistent" in the way you mean? Then no one is best?
There is no player so good that he can "consistently" beat other top players, except Flash (and even he isn't so good at the moment, still being relatively out of practice). It is emphatically not true that Magnus Carlsen consistently beats other top chess players. He usually draws, and in any given game, he might win or lose. It's only in long matches with lots of games that he consistently comes out on top, because he is slightly better than his opponent. In the same way, over long stretches of games, Light consistently beats other top players on average. That's what makes him the best.
Or in other words, if he's not the best, who is better?
but chess is a less random game. a "fairer" game. the best player almost always wins the tournaments.
Just stranding Snow's reaver by destroying the associated Shuttle in the beginning is cathartic enough 😆
Best TvP in a long time! Amazing strat and execution
I dont think you realize the insane control and apm required to push like this. This was unreal.
Only the best terran in the world can pull it off
Light is a demon. Unbelievable to see how precisely he used 3 wraiths at any given point while also maneuvering MM around like that. I don’t see many players being able to pull off that degree of control or macro against a player like snow. Like I don’t fundamentally understand how he (or any one for that matter) can execute that so well.
This is how terran should work. Combined arms instead of mech ginder. Also that wasnt bio... it was all three.
Terrans have the best army composition, so many options and synergies, it only requires huge skill
@@FlymanMS he only needed constant 350plus apm and was still losing a lot of free marines
I think it's more of a surprise than anything else. Similar to how JyJ won the first game vs Soulkey on ASL16. The one makes something completely different to what his opponent believes.
beautiful countering @@stefanstoyanov4926
I really appreciate the realism in seeing tanks backed by marines in action. It adds a layer of immersion for me
someone get RT some Tylenol, as he's getting chills often lol
u were so satisfied to see your worst enemy be beaten by a bio terran player, artosisu is in heaven!
Woo! Another day, another great cast of Brood War. Upvote to prevent spoilers :D
Spoiler blocking top comments are great. So many videos I've not bothered to watch because immediately visible top comment spoiler
"You go mech against toss because of reavers."
Light: "Hold my beer."
Artosis I think it would be nice to get like a 30-60s summary of the game at the end with closing thoughts. Maybe most people wouldn’t watch but I’d be interested to hear your recap and overall takeaways.
I would like that as well!
That would be cool, especially for unorthodox games like this one.
I was just thinking I really wanted something like that, especially for this game
Summary of bio play vs toss:
- Build primarily used to catch the Protoss off-guard
- Can be effective if Protoss doesn't scout, is greedy or is going carriers
- If scouted, HTs and reavers annihilate bio
- Essentially an all-in as there is no transition potential (no factories)
- Wraiths added here are more unique and attempt to counter reaver play
- Major disadvantage is the extremely high apm/skill required to control 3 distinct unit groups of wraths, bio and tanks.
Key points of game:
- After zealot pressure ended, they were approximately even in economy (only 4 probes more, equivalent to a standard opening)
- 11:05 minor trade advantage for T, 2 free goons
- Elimination of 4th base of Protoss inconsequential, not many probes lost and Snow only needs to survive the attack.
- 11:35 minor trade advantage for T
- 13:00 start of the engagement favours T, then trades even out as the battle progresses. P army is scattered across 3 areas of the map and hence not trading as efficiently.
- Snow needed a few better scarabs to connect with clumps of marines keep the game in check - its not obvious but Light is trying extremely hard to maneouver his marines away from scarabs, or only letting scarabs kill 1-2 at a time. Scarabs only get good connections past 13 mins.
Light victory:
4/5 Strategy (unscouted but Snow already has reaver tech)
5/5 Execution (insanely difficult)
@@whymecma Well, we got the Summary guys 😀
that was legit fucking beautiful to watch
I personally would love to see more BIO vs toss and more MECH vs zerg but I understand its not as easy or doable.
you should see flash's old tvz games. which is what he is still doing up to now.
It takes a lot of mind games, otherwise protoss will crush it every time when it comes to bio vs protoss. Mech vs zerg used to be quite common and it's still strong except at the highest level.
I remember Advokat a Russian terran player beat Jaedong with mech - this looked amazing!
So nice to see some novelty and that it actually worked gg
wow, bio + tank + wraith composition seems pretty strong
I don't think I've ever seen someone switch to bio _after_ they've already seen reavers.
Bless whoever recommend this game.
Wow that was different and exciting! It makes me feel like it's a shame that bio is not a legitimate option against Protoss. But still nice to know once in a while it can be brought in with the right mind games. The way siege tanks, bio, and wraiths were mixed together to counter reavers as best as they could was very impressive and interesting.
Marines would need to receive some buffs and probably Ghosts as well so they can support Marines vs Reavers. But it aint gonna happen cause Brood War never gets balance patches
Now as I think, marines + tanks can kinda work vs protoss, since tanks counter reavers, while marines counter zealots even better than vultures, and counter dragoons as well; their damage output is so high. Of course you need wraiths or goliaths to counter shuttles
I wish more pros tried this style. Its beautiful to watch
I love to see Bio vs Toss more~
Wow that was a really hype game. Showing the levels
Here's a perfect example.
Soulkey just won ASL
But Ample (who isn't even a top Terran player) demolished Soulkey in SCSL just a month ago.
Winning a tournament doesn't you the "best".... sometimes, the stars just aligns in your favor
WOW. My Jaw was on the floor for most of this game. Thanks for such a great cast!
Bio beats Protoss? More like everything but the kitchen sink beat Protoss. That was a wild mix of units. :D
That wraith control though oO
Completely denying the Reaver play.
What a gamer!
Once Light had a position behind bridges one option he could have chosen is 2 dropships and drop mnm into main probe line, its tough for pvt to respond properly and its not even much investment for light.
What a nice versatile build
Yee good idea
I absolutely love all the wraith plays we've been seeing lately, such a fun unit to see being microed well
Missed this when it came out. What a beautiful game. Such interesting compositions and interactions. One of my favourite games I've watched in a while!
The way blizzard intended terran army to be.
We just witnessed Light changing the META for TVP to what irlt should have been all along. 🎉🎉🎉
S rank game!
And the wraiths, oh my GOODNESS. SO MUCH VALUE from those wraiths! So many observers and shuttles shut down.
And the tank leap frogging and such a FAST PUSH from Light! AMAZING GAME!!!
I had never seen snow on his knees like that. He lost every trade
I love how Artosis talks 5 min about how you can't go bio in PvT and then light goes 2x starport into Bio xD
God damn I love light. He’s such an exciting player to watch. Thanks for casting Arty
Really enjoyed this cast
This was awesome. These unexpected builds and strategies are so refreshing
Great cast as always, but I don't know if I'd say Marines and medic...
Those tanks were pretty critical so I suppose it'd be more of a hybrid build
Definitely flexing the 1-1-1 power of Terran
Tanks kept Reavers at bay and shelled the buildings, the marines mostly deal with zealots and provided a meat shield for the tanks... the real mvps were the wraiths tho sniping shuttles.
Gg, thanks for the cast Artosis.
I imagine this game is how the designers thought pvt would work at high level way back when they first made the game.
They sure did, ive read about it somewhere, except the Wraith part. They intended the use of Tank+M&M to be the main army composition, but they didnt take the power of Reavers and Storm into account.
@@stambe8605 Well I bet they did indeed think cloaked wraiths would counter reavers in shuttles or at least make it hard to use, and that science vessels with EMP would counter high templars and ghosts with lockdown would counter carriers. In fact this, along with a lot of drop ships, is exactly what Heartcutter always advocated as the best or correct way to play terran. He called it 'Deep 6' because he would fast expand (for the era) and crank out 6 barracks and 2 factories and a starport or 2. He only built 1 wraith, to deter reavers and scout with, then rushed up to science facility to get science vessels and ghosts with lockdown for his end game comp. He got some pretty decent wins against good competition for the time, talking like 2000-2002ish. But even then Koreans were showing that mech was the easier way to play so his style never caught on, but it was nostalgic to see Light bringing a version of it back.
@@nHautamaki you realise how micro intensive would it be to play that way, how easy to lose as well one bad engage and you're done, emp is so slow that probably templars could use storm anyway ghost don't do well against toss anyway
Marines meat shielding the tanks.
I love it.
So satisfying to see protoss losing so fast
Not quite a Deep Six, but equally ballsy by Light.
This is some heroic Slayers Boxer stuff right here
Terran was tech switching every time for the direct counter. It’s like how Zerg does vs Protoss when they suddenly hatch 11 mutas
Wraiths: weak vs Protoss
Bio: weak vs Protoss
Wraiths AND Bio: Strong vs Protoss?
Can't believe he went for bio, what a mad lad!
Appreciate these casts Artosis
I have always wondered in TvP where the wraiths are used like in this game more often. Even if P went Arbiter as well, a few wraiths can sneak by and snipe them down if they dare try to Recall into the main/expansions.
Great games lately Artosis. Keep up the S tier casts!
Double Starport all the way across the skyyyyy...
What a strong push! Light, well done! Haven’t seen strong wraith played like this before to stop Shuttles and Reavers. It really helped out the team very efficiently. Nice game for both players!
gotta keep those wraiths dancing all day! great game!!
TvP bio is very cool, a pity it so rare. You have to be really great at micro to kill reavers, or kill protoss before he gets them.
2:17 I heard Snow evil laugh and feet clapping when he killed 1 SCV and steal gas from Teeran
Nothing has hyped me quite as much as this game. That was beautiful.
Btw Reaver aint the main problem for M&M, its the freaking Shuttle. Without Shuttles, playing around Reavers would be MUCH MUCH easier when using bio.
Found a perfect counterplay to Snow) aka 'I know that you'll be going reavers'
I enjoy these videos thanks Bro !!!! Keep up the good work Sir
Awesome game. Love watching stimmed marines shred zealots.
Also, does this necessarily have to be an all-in? Even if it doesn't kill toss, it could at least do serious damage to them and prevent them from expanding. Meanwhile while they're on the backfoot terran can tech up and expand?
Well, it’s still an all-in in that you have to do significant damage with the push or you will be so far behind
Fun game. Good casting. Thanks!
Holy hell the mind games
One of the best TvsZ I never seen!
Fuck yeah! We gotta see this build more! Screw Stinky Protoss!
fantastic game! really enjoyed this one
A good ol' Marine Tank roflstomp.
Artosis getting chills ✅
light always seems to have twice as many units as anyone else at a given point in the game
Nice to see Terran breaking from monochromatic unit production.
This will change the whole game.
This game was insane. Props to Dudenerd for the recommendation! If he has any more you should cast those too.
Insane how confident Light was with his wraith play, won him the game for sure
sick game. Love how the wraiths give the benefit of preventing zealot bombs.
Wraiths were the true mvps, supporting the tank/marine combo
I_was_hoping_youd_cast_this_one_great_game
Woah what a strat. GGs!
wowzers that was nuts
The fun thing is that bio absolutely melts protoss units. I remember some games on blue storm where bio was used against carrier and absolutely shredded interceptors.
Pity that marines die so quickly to reavers and storms.
One of my favorite matches
Sick game, damn Light is so good, and SnOw almost held that!
Eh, even if Snow fought off that wave, he has lost two bases... He was basically dead already.
This is why i love starcraft. Wow what a game and casted by the best to ever do it.
amazing game thank you
He had medics. He could blind the observers to decrease maximum supply of protoss.
Not that he was ever supply blocked but still, could be funny.
WAIT WAIT WAIT, wasn't it 76 or *probably/perhaps* it was that slightly other 'side-by-side' main bases map that the Protoss to Terran (cam't remember his name) went full Wraiths into later drops on the high platforms in the last A.S.L.
OOHHH DOUBLE WRAITHBOW!!
Time to eat breakfast and watch StarCraft
Same, only he it is late lunch time :D
I love Protoss. Protoss is the Terran Music of Starcraft races
I wish I could pull off a bio opener, into two port wraith, into mech, back into bio. Lol
Holy cow what a difference in gameplay. Marines get so many last hits on those marines after the siege tank fire.
light guy has been around since boxer time
1:57 bro at this point if protoss doesn’t win.
Cool build!
This is brutal
game looks just like my ladder games
OMG, one of the best games I've ever seen!
I swear i think snow was clapping with his feet for 3 minutes straight at the start of the game with that probe harassment