Faction Icons - A Historical Analysis - Medieval 2 Total War
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- Опубліковано 31 січ 2020
- Welcome to this weeks Total War Profiled Episode, and today we will be looking into the Historical Accuracy behind the Faction Icons of Medieval 2 Total War.
For the most part they seem accurate, but there's a few interesting things to point out here.
Most seems to be based off of Flags and Coat of Arms from the Time, or in some rare cases, Religion.
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Enjoy : ) - Ігри
Turns out Denmark is a raven, I never knew. Thank You comments for letting me know : )
Next Weeks Total War Profiled Episode will be looking into the Geograthy of Attila Total War.
If there is any interesting info you may have about it, please let me now, so I don't miss anything. : )
The holy raven
Its the raven of Odin, representing the Norse faith
It's a specific raven. That particular design is assosiated with the Vikings, in particular, Ragnar Lothbrok and his family
It was used by the Vikings also the flag of Egypt in game is the same with the mamluks
@@ShadowMinnie More Germanic in general. The reason that Odin is different specifically to the Norse is because their language(later, languages) evolved with less influence from southern European languages, but, also, because they were the last Germanic pagans, so they simply had more myths.
Not covering the rebel banner 0/10
XD
For Roman ( Byzantine ) flag:
-purple was the color of royalty in ancient Rome and when Empire split in 2 the Eastern Rome actually adopted that color and used it until 1453.
-The 4 'B' letters have a meaning as each represent one word, all together they say: 'Basileùs basiléon basileuónton basileúei' which means: Emperor of Emperors ruling over Emperors.
Another interesting fact: Fleur de-lis actually has few different meaning for the French.
-It is royal symbol because of it's ties to the baptism of Clovis 1'st King of Franks.
-It represents the Virgin Mary.
-It is symbol that represents Jeanne d'Arc.
-It is also the symbol of Christianity, becasue it has 3 leafs representing "Holy Trinity".
2SSSR2 “emperor of emperors ruling over emperors” was that mean to stick it to the Persians who use the title “king of kings”?
@@goldenfiberwheat238 I highly doubt this since this was used by the Paleologoi family, in the latter days of the empire.
"The Timurids' three circles in a triangle are meant to represent peace, which is exactly what they bring in game...
okay, maybe not..." XD
And I bet the triangular-white-circle, blue-banner ment "war", wich is why they never used it. ;)
Well, if Timurids destroy all other factions, they will obtain peace.
@@ilgattopardo3231 XD
If there is no one left there is no war
The problem with faction icons (in general) is that national symbols are quite fluid and change constantly in a span of some decades or centuries. Especially in Medieval times, where nations did not exist, the representing coat of arms was that of the ruling house. Of course, giving a faction a constant faction banner simplifies the development but a lot of the in game symbols weren't even mentioned until like 13th century or even later.
Isn't Denmark's a Raven?
Cause of the famous Vikings who bore the Raven sigil when they went to raid England?
Probably meant to symbolize the ravens Hugin and Munin, Odin's world-travelling ravens!
@@ComradeTiberius nah, deffintly vikings
@@wieprzdiukdetruffe5863 What?
@@ComradeTiberius that raven, there's only one on viking banner
@@wieprzdiukdetruffe5863 I know.
For Denmark that's a raven not a dragon
I assume the devs used a crescent on a green background for the Turks to tie in with their Ottoman successors (the crescent with a star on a red or green background was a symbol used by the ottomans)
In addition, the Mongol flag is based of the Golden Horde flag, another mongol successor state, the devs probably took alot from successor states so they are more recognizable to an audience
The mongol symbol is the golden horde flag
the DEVS probably went for recognisability rather than historical accuracy
The flag of Denmark is a version of the Raven Banner, a symbol for the norse pagans, and among the many heraldric symbols Viking warriors of old used to paint on their shields.
...Which is pretty weird, since Medieval 2 takes place long after the Norse converted to Christianity.
Although I love the Viking era and its style of imagery, I always hated the use of the raven in Denmark's crest in game. Its really jarring to see 15th century Danish knights in full plate displaying a tribal looking emblem from 600 years earlier.
Also, I hated how Hungary's colours are a nasty looking salmon pink and lime green combo, which is a shame because I like their starting position, their units and just the history and culture of medieval Hungary generally.
I like Hungary’s colors to be honest
Okay so for the Milan stemma, the child actually is an enemy being eaten by the snake (or dragon), the snake (or dragon) represents the Sforza family. Anyway lovely video!
Interesting to know. Thanks : )
Still, it's a weird image to have XD
Let's not forget that the heraldic serpent we're talking about originally appears in the coat of arms of the Visconti family, before being linked to the Sforza family itself.
There is literally not one single dragon anywhere on the Danish coat of arms.
Imagine Milan also being a blue faction right next to blue France blue Scotland and blue Russia. Wait....
Venice has the best one.
Fuck you greedy venician merchant. :P
I always thought the Milanese flag was a dragon breathing fire, until I watched this video
Have you ever seen Melkor and Indiana Jones in the same room at the same time?
As a Scot, seeing the St Andrews cross instead of the lion rampant to represent our kingdom is thoroughly disappointing.
Eh. It is slightly anachronistic, since St. Andrew’s Cross wasn’t a widespread Scottish symbol until the late Middle Ages. But I like the color scheme better for the game’s visuals, having a yellow-colored Scotland is just... wrong.
Yeah, I'm in complete agreement here.
Not having the lion rampant is extremely disappointing.
But the blue and white of the saltire is a nicer colour scheme. And distinct. Which I'm assuming is why they went that way.
:O
Point conceded, Jacobite, even though putting the original Scottish coat of arms would have made things way more complicated, iconography-wise, on the main strategic screen. Anachronistic, by all means, but let's say it was a practical choice.
The other half in Hungary's coat of arms has nothing to do with Austria. The red and white stripes are the colours of the Árpád-dynasty, the founding dynasty of the kingdom. And the cross is on 3 hills which contain multiple possible explanations.
The Polish faction icon is based on the Piast dynasty's coat of arms, not on the modern Polish (although it's also flipped the other way around).
Also, the Mongol flag is based on one of the flags of the Golden Horde, a successor state to Genghis' empire.
Yes but the modern eagle is also based on the Piast dynasty eagle so it's the same idea
@@xbox_cheeto5338
There were many variations of the white eagle on a red background. Current coat of arms is fairly new, but quite old versions exist elsewhere, for example the coat of arms of the Greater Poland Voivodeship:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland_Voivodeship
@@narfash-yt Could it not be argued that this is just the same symbol being used again? With a generically Polish name corresponding to that region, it would make sense to once again likewise use generic federal iconography for the voivodeship rather than say something relevant like a historical Poznan symbol.
@@xbox_cheeto5338 tldr: it's complicated.
1. Throughout 1000 years of history, there have been numerous varieties of the white eagle so it is difficult to count them all. Many of them still exist here and there.
2. Yes, they all come from the coat of arms of the Piast dynasty.
3. Different variations and details have different meanings.
And now things get complicated.
4. The Greater Poland Voivodeship is different from the Greater Poland region (Polonia Maior / Wielkopolska). The original coat of arms of Greater Poland (region) was the black head of the aurochs and looks like this:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_wojew%C3%B3dztwa_kaliskiego
5. The present coat of arms of the Greater Poland Voivodeship (not historical region) is a contemporary interpretation based on the coat of arms of the local branch of the Piast dynasty from the 13th century. The main difference is the lack of a crown.
So, back to the discussion, it's the same idea indeed, but variations and details make huge difference.
If game begins somewhere in 12-13th century it could be eagle of Przemysl II or something similiar:
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przemys%C5%82_II
...but if Kingdom of Poland starts as Lesser Poland/Polonia Minor/Malopolska region (like in Medieval Kingdoms 1212 mod) things become complicated again.
Conclusion: There is no avoidance of controversy, so any early white eagle variant would fit and I have absolutely no problem with that.
@@narfash-yt Yes, and medieval two rarely goes by a literal historic approach, instead favouring capturing a given era's vibe and atmosphere, as well as balance. Adding to this, they likewise tend to give more generalized flags/crests and symbols. But for Melkor here he's making this video concept for fun just to see what technically could point towards a specific era/date if it had to be done
I thought the Hungarian flag in M2tw was a white tree when i was a kid
@Arya Are you from the land of the white tree?
@@Randomstuffs261 those hondorians...
Milan's red snake eating a person looks more like the blues snake eating a person than the green snake with a crown
The animals on the English flag or rather coat of arms are actually leopards, as at the time the crusaders were unaware of the difference.
Contemporary French sources referred to the symbols on the heraldry using the word for leopard yet switched to lion much later on.
Additionally, artificial purple coloration was a rarity in the ancient world [before synthetic dyes] producable only through the strenuous harvesting of certain coastal snails.
As a result, the wealthy and in high birth could afford or were so ordained to purchase or don the color, hence the imperial term 'born in the purple' for family of the Emperor.
Found this channel today, i love it
But the Timirids do bring peace wherever they go. They make a desert and call it peace.
About Poland. It's inverted, simplified version of many variants of Polish white eagle on red background. Modern one doesn't have golden stripes on wings, but medieval one had. Edit: Double checked. On king's Zygmunt II August's coat of arms eagle faces right instead of left
The papal states had a red background with white keys at the time I believe.
Or maybe red and yellow. I'm not sure
MELKOR is Harrison Ford. Prove me wrong
Cripes! I never knew that the red thing on the Milanese symbol was a kid being eaten by the snake!
milanese used green uniforms, thats why they are green
turquoise colour got its name from turks, thats why they make them that colour
and egypt idk but is always yellow and it should be so im happy with that
Damn Thats a good video , Melkor !!
The Portuguese flag represents (accurately) their 12-13th century flag:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PortugueseFlag1185.svg
Although at the time of the game's start, it should be this one:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/PortugueseFlag1095.svg/800px-PortugueseFlag1095.svg.png
The original flag was a blue cross, which was then turned into 5 blue shields shaped as the cross representing the 5 Moorish Kings slain at the battle of Ourique in 1139 (Where a miracle _allegedly_ occurred and Afonso I was thus proclaimed King by his soldiers in the aftermath).
The symbol has nothing to do with the discoveries or the Americas, and the only _promise_ Afonso I "made to God" was to expand the Catholic faith into infidel land, which meant the south of Iberia during the Reconquista (which he did, doubling the size of Portugal during his lifetime).
This symbol became the symbol of Portugal untill this very day, and is the most integral part of their national symbols, being present in the centre of every single national flags, no matter how many times changed, a few examples:
15th century:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/PortugueseFlag1485.svg/800px-PortugueseFlag1485.svg.png
17th Century
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Flag_of_Portugal_%281495%29.svg/800px-Flag_of_Portugal_%281495%29.svg.png
19th Century:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Flag_of_Portugal_%281830%29.svg/800px-Flag_of_Portugal_%281830%29.svg.png
And of course, as you pointed out, its still in their modern flag today.
I do think the Double Cross for Hungary is actually a Pagan symbol for their Tree of life. Which carried over to become their state symbol
Historically the Muslims did not use the crescent and star until the 13th century. Also the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum the Anatolian parts of the Seljuk Turks used a double headed eagle as their standard.
Damn, man! You like Indiana Jones too? I like you even MORE already!
And I thought I knew a bit of history...
The eagle of the danish flag comes from the pagan norse mythology, and was used by most norse peoples before they converted to christianity.
The five shields of the portuguese flag represent the five moorish kings that Afonso the conqueror defeated in Ourique. The white dots are the 30 coins of wich Judas betrayed Jesus.
the eagle is not based on thr current Coat of Arms but on the one of Piast dynasty ruling Poland from 966 to 1370. Their eagle resembles the in-game icon almost perfectly: Piast eagle imgur.com/a/TNieuQE
Wait I've always thought Milan had a dragon
2:16 that’s the symbol of Norse paganism
Awesome
There is no yellow color in coat of arms. We always say gold. So it's gold eagle, not yellow one. Lust little trivia.
Or, as we would say when blazoning coat of arms... and Or isn't a conjunction, in this case! 😀
Mongolian flag looks simular to the flag of the golden horde.
Yeah, the Danish CoA shouldn't have been the raven, since that's primarily representative of pagan viking age Denmark, which frankly Denmark still was in 1080 (although its kings were Christian, the majority of the population was still pagan), but given that the game lasts until the 16th century it would've been better off with the CoA it was given in Stainless Steel.
On the Byzantine flag: One theory is that those are indeed four Bs or betas, but another one is that they are meant to be fire starters, symbolizing the light of Antiquety and Greco-Roman civilization, which Byzantium was keeping alive.
Absolutely wrong on the Hungarian flag. That coat of arms, the one of modern Hungary, is made of two halves. The stripes aren't really Austrian (Austria has the old Babenberg flag, and that one has red-white-red stripes, not half a dozen), they are called Arpad stripes and were used by the head of House Arpad as their personal seal. They sometimes had lions on red stripes. Wikipedia has it right, here's a reconstructed and colored seal of Arpad king Emeric: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Coa_Hungary_Country_History_Imre_%281196-1204%29.svg/230px-Coa_Hungary_Country_History_Imre_%281196-1204%29.svg.png
Here's also original seal: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Imrich_pecet.jpg
The second half, double cross on three hills, first appears on currecny by Bela III, with the cross possibly referencing his brief time as hier to the Byzantine throne. To put long stroy really short, this coat of arms slowly crept from coins to a few personal seals to being seen as representing Hungary itself. It was most prominently used by the Anjou kings, quartered with Arpad stripes, and while they were only two Anjou kings, their regin was both long and prosperous, at a time when most Europe was going to the dogs from Black Death.
Bela III silver coin: i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dhEAAOSww5hZFwH3/s-l400.jpg
Chronica Picta, c1350, double cross by itself: www.hung-art.hu/kep/zmisc/miniatur/14_sz/kronika/1/kron1_05.jpg
Chronica Picta, Arpad stripes by themselves: u.smedata.sk/blog/article/1/39/394491/394491_article_photo_Fcip8Fw0_600x.jpeg?r=28ad
For Islamic flags, Egypt uses one of the early Ottoman flags, adpoted after 1514, almost verbatim with changed colors: qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b5549276166f562eab53b3b9ef628166
For Turks, they are supposed to represent two different real world factions, Seljuks in early game, and Ottomans in late game. Their flag is taken from just about the most well-known flag of Ottoman empire, from 1773 (the star later changed into 5-point version): qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d7be10f3547bef20fdd72b93e3f59391 , but weirdly enough, the 1773 flag change also changed colors, making the flag red, not green.
It would be fair to say that the Islamic icons are frankenflags, mashed together from various sources.
St Peter famously being a keyblade wielder after all
Scott Elder BIDEO BAME
I know that is just more unecessary work and nitpicking but u ever noticed the little flag/battle stantards that units uses in game, the ruskies have a really good one with Jesus which i find very cool
Castillo is pronounced differently, the double l becomes a j like the way you pronounce the y in yeah for example
Phonologically speaking: a palatal approximant, yes 😀
Polish Eagle it doesn't matter is looking on right or left. Still is the most beautiful emblem in entire Medieval2 👍
Someone probably said this, but the Mongolian icon is supposed to represent the Golden Horde (I think)
Timurids, the bringers of peace...and death lots of death
The earliest Holy Roman Emperor to use the imperial eagle for certain was Henry VI in the late 1100s.
The Oriflamme is also visible on the French general's unit in every battle when you zoom in. Also, your pronunciation is hilariously bad, makes the videos even funnier!
Indeed, in the faction leader and the heir's unit. But then the problem is, in another generals (of other factions, like england' generals) I seen the "fleur de lis".
Denmark's flag is a raven, an iconic creature in Norse mythology.
EDIT: Eh, someone commented that already. Ah, well...
cool cool
It’s CASTIYO Not castilo
Will you do the same for let say, Empire?
Probably not Empire, but I have done Rome TW, and will probably do Rome 2 and Attila at some point.
Scotland keeping it simple 🏴
The Danish emblem is likely a crow or raven, Odin's crow / raven perhaps. Don't you watch Vikings mate? Then again Denmark was Christian before M2TW campaign starts!
In ETW I was always confused when fighting the French, because I wasn't always sure if they were fleeing or just french.
Many symbols in M2TW are the way they are in oder to fit into the coloursceme(which is really patronizing if you ask me, this isn't aoe, you don't need playercolours) as you pointed out for the HRE. Milan going green for example, also I assume it's just an inverison of the Logo of Alpha romeo :D
What about Kingdoms icons?
It will happen eventually. : )
@@MelkorGG you're one of the best and most informative total war youtubers, keep up the good work
Stay to the very end just cause of that outro music
It's a clip taking from the Rome Total War Soundtrack: Contemplation - if you wanted the full thing : )
@@MelkorGG Thanks, I actually knew because of your video on rome total war music! I didn't even know about until this channel.
2:52 cries in español
Bro, your discord invite link doesnt work.
I just tried it now and it worked.
People have had this issue before. Usually copy and pasting it into a different tab usually works, rather than clicking the link.
What accent is this?
Yorkshire : )
Moor simplified version xDDD
Tbh, Scotland isn’t right
Yeah they should have a red lion in a yellow background
Nope the byzantine flag's origin Is actually From serbia its Our coat of Arms meaning quadrouple s or on serbian (samo sloga Srbina spasava) meaning only unity saves the serb
The "dragons" in the danish CoA are actually lions.
melkor these are modern flags..
What?
@@MelkorGG the portugese one is a modern flag