25:00 So narcissists don't technically lie, but rewrite history as it suits them and then firmly believe in it, whereas Psychopaths consciously manipulate, gaslight etc. What about Malignant Narcissist who are a mix of both? I have one in my family and there is a very long-term plan behind what she does but whenever you go near to pointing out any incongruencies she seems firmly convinced that she's a morally irreprehensible person acting out of good faith and either justifies her behavior due to someone else's "fault" or denies the fact. In both cases in a very aggressive way of course.
I have always thought of narcissism as being egodystonic vs egosyntonic. It is precisely because they are egodystonic that they resort to a false self in the way that someone with anxiety might develop OCD to create external order to cope with their internal maelstrom.
I left my one because it wasn’t the first narc I have been in a relationship with so he was easy to let go this time, he messaged me yday asking for money I said hell no my boundaries are strong built now it’s hard because I always feel bad even tho I shouldn’t my hearts to pure but I have to keep remembering these people are users and abusers they mean you no good ever 🙅🏽♀️🙅🏽♀️🙅🏽♀️
It's like once they see you dont reflect them perfectly anymore they need to shatter you. They can hyper focus on you to catch you slipping just to find a reason to break you. It's like murder...slow torture. Hate. Sticks & stones may break my bones but your words murder me.
"Narcissistic never interacts with you, but the internal object in his mind that represents you" that's a big and interesting thing to say - tha explains the basic lack of interest, let alone lack of empathy, and the anger is causes when you do things that are not as they want/ the tiptoeing around them.
Excellent podcast. Very high level and superbly insightful. Covert narcissism is perhaps the most invidious form of personality disorder (speaking from experience, sad to say). Thank you for the excellent teaching. Cheers!
What makes me the most upset about a narcissist is that they tear you down and seek out your vulnerabilities to bring themselves up. My biggest mistake when breaking up with my ex was telling her she was a narcissist. I was met with rage, projections. The funniest thing of it all was that she was just repeating what I was saying about her back to me…and I was the narcissist.😂😂
Around 40 minutes in, re: the etiology of clinical narcissism, it seems like possibly narcissists raise narcissists or borderlines. This has been my experience as a woman with bpd and a mother who is definitely clinically narcissistic. She did raise my brother and I to be unable to have our own identity as it seems she views is as an extension of herself almost like she is unable to conceive of other people outside of herself or outside of their effect TO herself. My brother is a drug addict; a man who has never had a sexual relationship because of the emotional and physical incest she put us through. And I became borderline. Certainly I have an addictive personality as well, but my borderline personality has me continually in series relationships and unable to be alone, unable to really even possess my own identity separate from my intimate partners. And as you have described, I've experienced the switch to psychopathy in situations where I feel threatened of abandonment. Is there no way out of this existence? I've been desperately trying to find out if I also have clinical narcissism like my mother as I do see similarities and now you've pointed out that they are one and the same painting. What does it matter anyway as I am definitely borderline; I don't know why I distress myself over this other than I desperately want to separate myself and distance myself from my horrible mother.
Narcissistic Mothers definitely create sons that end up taking refuge in drugs. It's absolutely heart wrenching to witness and be part of such a family and watching yourself and your siblings going through destructive behaviors that can be very dangerous.
44 minutes in there is mention of non-identical twins and one becoming narcissistic while the other does not become this way. I am an identical twin and my twin possesses narcissistic traits and is likely a malignant narcissist. We suffered identical childhood abuse to include denial of the children's reality, but twin claims to outsiders that she is the hero that saved her twin from abuse. This absolutely can happen in identical twins. Small point but necessary here.
In my defense, once I entered what would be the final discard, the first thing I said was, I'm an idiot. LOL Cognitive dissonance is crazy. I knew all the flags, I just didn't know why I couldn't leave. Now I do.
Sam, I find the description of the relational dynamics fascinating. It occurs to me that these dynamics happen in all intimate partnerships where we embark on a shared fantasy, only to wake up to the reality of the other. I wonder if all relationships involve sub-clinical narcissism. It would be great to hear your opinion on that.
Learning all the time with Sam's expertise to understand my current situation. Yes "the island of stability" (her 40 year marriage) & chaos not work in her case but moving house around the UK all the time. Great to have a logical critical brain!
Why does the narc in my life always say *“you’re not my mother”* ?? If I suggest or ask something he thinks I’m trying to control him. Baffles me because that’s not what I’m trying to do. Also, he has never discarded me. I can never stick around long enough because it’s so awful so I end up leaving. And of course I go back and do it all over again. But he has never once left me alone. Even when he had a girlfriend. It took me 4 years to heal and move on and he got upset STILL. FOUR YEARS LATER AND HE HAD A GIRLFRIEND but I was the one who was wrong. Smh. lol. Every holiday he used as an excuse to send flowers and reach out. Stalks and Hoovers any and every single time I leave. Never fails. I’ve even had a restraining order before. Nothing works.
Aloha🌺 In my opinion and experience, the discarding phase does not always involve physical abandonment. The fact that he had a girlfriend while still in a relationship with you might be a form of discard. Neglect and withholding are other possible tactics. I do not think the phases are always rigidly distinct nor traverse extended periods of time. The cycle can occur, especially the longer you are in the relationship, in one conversation or one day. The man I left years ago, who continues his vindictive rage and destruction, would profess his undying love for me while simultaneously ruining an aspect of my life. He has a successful career and is practically intelligent, but as Vaknin accurately describes, these people suffer a stunted development. It can be confusing to interact with someone who uses adult vocabulary yet possesses the underlying psychology of a small angry child. I hope you remain free of this cycle, it is a deplorable waste of human life and ability!
@@Beleeber No. I’m saying that during the time he had a girlfriend he was upset with me because I had a boyfriend as well. It took me 4 years to start dating. He had someone the same week. He thought I was wrong for moving on even though he had a girlfriend himself.
@@shiloh7344 You misunderstood. I did all the leaving. On one of those occasions I had gotten a restraining order against him and he had another girlfriend that same week. He got upset with me when I moved on FOUR YEARS LATER. He kept trying to talk, date, and everything while he had this girlfriend. When he sent flowers he would get mad at me for not saying thank you or acknowledging him. He showed up at my house almost daily while he had this girlfriend. I’m going to stop here because the story is 15 years long and the FBI even had to get involved.
@@Beleeber No he didn’t threaten me. When it expired we spoke about it…. Well no, HE spoke about it. I say this because he completely dominated the “discussion” and I never got a word in. He said he was bitter and wanted me to pay do redo the vacation over again. He took me to the Bahamas and assaulted me on international waters. That’s the reason for the FBI. My mother warned me not to go and I should’ve known better. He ruins every vacation and holiday so I shouldn’t have expected to have a good time. This was the first and only time he ever laid a hand on me. He was embarrassed and afraid of the backlash once we got back home and promised to never do it again and he hasn’t. That may be the only promise he ever kept but I enforced it with a restraining order.
Thank you. This helped explain several things. The main for me was my struggle to forgive them they know not what they do, when they sure do know. It's that they don't know why.
@@karenarev conciousness is simply awareness so no, i dont think that. and. no. everyone has the capacity to regret their actions. you mean remorse. i don't experience that, and on second thought i can't recall a time that i actually did. There are concerns for consequences, which manifest as anxiety, which appears to be remorse, however it is just anxiety or frustration at the root. edit: since writing this comment i realize i'm not primarily narcissistic but rather psychopathic (my clinician referred me to BPD and NPD but she is an absolute dunce so i don't care)
@@karenarevthey have fear for the consequences of their actions. I don't know how much they have what you or I would call "regret" or "remorse". You have to have a core being to experience those things, and it's impossible to imagine what it's like to not have an inner core of being. I'd imagine it's *stressful* to be a narc, but not necessarily sad to them. You're assuming they have the same heart as you or any other non-narc, which they do not. Why would they be sad for hurting something they view as a mere object? And that's the bottom line of it: the narc views you, me and every other person in the world as mere objects. The main thing they suffer from are the consequences of their actions, but I don't think they experience "pain" in the way you may think.
@@jazeenharal6013 it's all very confusing. The professor says that Narcs breed Narcs. My mother as far as I understand is some kind of a Narc. So where does that leave me? Am I also a Narc? I do have feelings and feel remorse. But I see a strong conviction on oline community to blame this disorder proudly. Isn't this just another defense mechanism created to mask anger and projection?
What if we met at school and married for 25 years 🤔 this is half my fault then surly at 16/17 he was not narcissistic till years later when ours sons got to about 8 things changed they are now 20,11 and 3 think honestly our third pushed him too far I finally put him out at xmas
I laughed so fucking hard during the "babies suck" diatribe lmao I have 4 kids. Love them all incredibly! But you're not wrong haha! Thank goodness for oxytocin.
Dr Vaknin. I work in behavorial health and I was recently in a relationship with a man I believe suffers from NPD , there were times when I literally saw that child before me. It was quite shocking to see a frightened little person in front of me as if i was a horrible person. Im familiar with dissociation, I would love to learn more from you about this type of dissociation if possible.
.My Narcissist demanded that i. provide him with my email😢 password, telephone number and amount of money i have in checking account...He, then, announced he was married to me, without, even meeting..he stated that i must "submit to ur man"..wee had, only, texted at that point. He love bombed. Then, later, he started the deevaluation stage after i broke up with him for first time.
Sorry until I had to arrange cover fir work he says he misses us and he's thinks I'll still take him back is it because I put him out he didn't finish the discard faze that he's doing this?
He has not got another great source. Will come back and treat you worse, takes you taking him back as accepting his behaviour. Will get much worse. Will find other better sources then discard you again. Forever cycle that gets more painful. Choose how many times you want to jump on.
I'm guessing you aren't trained, licensed or have the knowledge/experience to diagnose personality disorders. Especially on close family members, where your own biases and self-interests would make an accurate assessment impossible. Narcissism is the latest buzzword that allows us to discard people without the work or honest discomfort of understanding another human and making compromises because we value their company. Before you diagnose your loved ones, take a deep look at yourself first and note your faults, foibles and imperfections. Then sit down and talk to them. "Hey, is there something wrong? Are you okay?" Explain how their behavior has affected you, ask why they've been acting a certain way, and see if they are willing to change or at least try to change. They may say they act that way because of they way you have been treating them. Don't try to deflect or invalidate negative things they say about you, be prepared to own that shit and do some changing yourself. Because, guess what, You are not perfect. If they just deny or gaslight things you know for certain are true (facts) then maybe (MAYBE!) you have a narcissist on your hands. Remember, depression, anxiety, ptsd, etc etc can be confused with narcissism to the arm chair, dunning-kruger psychologist.
Hi Sam Please can you give us the data of the scientific study on the brain waves you mentioned in which the narcissist's brain waves are coordinated with the victim's brain waves. Thank you
@@samvakninHi Sam, thanks for your response, that's very kind of you. I think I already found the video where they talk about these studies where the coordination of brain waves between the narcissist and their victim is observed, I'm only halfway through and I hope it's the video, in fact this is the link and please let me know if is what is right ua-cam.com/video/gHAeew65frU/v-deo.htmlsi=Yl30qElNvpZjICti
The problem with the theory about genetic cause's based on 5 siblings with different out comes, and same parent/ treatment, is that the parent at the beginning, ( with the first child) isn't the same parent with the 2nd 3rd and definitely not the last, because people change and evolve and age ( get tired) Basically change with time , also the 1st child may not have the support of the 2nd 3rd because siblings do support each other, sometimes the last child is left alone to deal with abuse as the others have grown , moved out / away and the 1st child also doesn't have the support of older siblings.
25:00 So narcissists don't technically lie, but rewrite history as it suits them and then firmly believe in it, whereas Psychopaths consciously manipulate, gaslight etc. What about Malignant Narcissist who are a mix of both? I have one in my family and there is a very long-term plan behind what she does but whenever you go near to pointing out any incongruencies she seems firmly convinced that she's a morally irreprehensible person acting out of good faith and either justifies her behavior due to someone else's "fault" or denies the fact. In both cases in a very aggressive way of course.
Malignant narcissist is a narcissist. But he is capable of BOTH lying and confabulating. He is also capable of gaslighting.
@@samvaknin I see. Thanks a lot for your reply Prof Vaknin.
I have always thought of narcissism as being egodystonic vs egosyntonic. It is precisely because they are egodystonic that they resort to a false self in the way that someone with anxiety might develop OCD to create external order to cope with their internal maelstrom.
Vaknin's talks have become a delicious indulgence in knowledge for me. This one is a three course meal.
Well said my friend ♦️
I think he is quite brilliant too!
Well said!!!!
I left my one because it wasn’t the first narc I have been in a relationship with so he was easy to let go this time, he messaged me yday asking for money I said hell no my boundaries are strong built now it’s hard because I always feel bad even tho I shouldn’t my hearts to pure but I have to keep remembering these people are users and abusers they mean you no good ever 🙅🏽♀️🙅🏽♀️🙅🏽♀️
It's like once they see you dont reflect them perfectly anymore they need to shatter you. They can hyper focus on you to catch you slipping just to find a reason to break you. It's like murder...slow torture. Hate. Sticks & stones may break my bones but your words murder me.
"Narcissistic never interacts with you, but the internal object in his mind that represents you" that's a big and interesting thing to say - tha explains the basic lack of interest, let alone lack of empathy, and the anger is causes when you do things that are not as they want/ the tiptoeing around them.
Excellent podcast. Very high level and superbly insightful. Covert narcissism is perhaps the most invidious form of personality disorder (speaking from experience, sad to say). Thank you for the excellent teaching. Cheers!
What makes me the most upset about a narcissist is that they tear you down and seek out your vulnerabilities to bring themselves up. My biggest mistake when breaking up with my ex was telling her she was a narcissist. I was met with rage, projections. The funniest thing of it all was that she was just repeating what I was saying about her back to me…and I was the narcissist.😂😂
More like 10 to 15%?? Please come to my house at Thanksgiving. They are all there!
😂😂😂
Around 40 minutes in, re: the etiology of clinical narcissism, it seems like possibly narcissists raise narcissists or borderlines. This has been my experience as a woman with bpd and a mother who is definitely clinically narcissistic. She did raise my brother and I to be unable to have our own identity as it seems she views is as an extension of herself almost like she is unable to conceive of other people outside of herself or outside of their effect TO herself. My brother is a drug addict; a man who has never had a sexual relationship because of the emotional and physical incest she put us through. And I became borderline. Certainly I have an addictive personality as well, but my borderline personality has me continually in series relationships and unable to be alone, unable to really even possess my own identity separate from my intimate partners. And as you have described, I've experienced the switch to psychopathy in situations where I feel threatened of abandonment. Is there no way out of this existence? I've been desperately trying to find out if I also have clinical narcissism like my mother as I do see similarities and now you've pointed out that they are one and the same painting. What does it matter anyway as I am definitely borderline; I don't know why I distress myself over this other than I desperately want to separate myself and distance myself from my horrible mother.
Narcissistic Mothers definitely create sons that end up taking refuge in drugs. It's absolutely heart wrenching to witness and be part of such a family and watching yourself and your siblings going through destructive behaviors that can be very dangerous.
44 minutes in there is mention of non-identical twins and one becoming narcissistic while the other does not become this way. I am an identical twin and my twin possesses narcissistic traits and is likely a malignant narcissist. We suffered identical childhood abuse to include denial of the children's reality, but twin claims to outsiders that she is the hero that saved her twin from abuse. This absolutely can happen in identical twins. Small point but necessary here.
In my defense, once I entered what would be the final discard, the first thing I said was, I'm an idiot.
LOL
Cognitive dissonance is crazy. I knew all the flags, I just didn't know why I couldn't leave.
Now I do.
Trauma bond?
I think your definition of child abuse is spot on. Great work Sam.
1:26:31 Cults, in a sense, are shared fantasy pyramid schemes.
It is child neglect. Its also deliberate.
Sam, I find the description of the relational dynamics fascinating. It occurs to me that these dynamics happen in all intimate partnerships where we embark on a shared fantasy, only to wake up to the reality of the other. I wonder if all relationships involve sub-clinical narcissism. It would be great to hear your opinion on that.
Learning all the time with Sam's expertise to understand my current situation. Yes "the island of stability" (her 40 year marriage) & chaos not work in her case but moving house around the UK all the time. Great to have a logical critical brain!
Why does the narc in my life always say *“you’re not my mother”* ?? If I suggest or ask something he thinks I’m trying to control him. Baffles me because that’s not what I’m trying to do.
Also, he has never discarded me. I can never stick around long enough because it’s so awful so I end up leaving. And of course I go back and do it all over again. But he has never once left me alone. Even when he had a girlfriend. It took me 4 years to heal and move on and he got upset STILL. FOUR YEARS LATER AND HE HAD A GIRLFRIEND but I was the one who was wrong. Smh. lol.
Every holiday he used as an excuse to send flowers and reach out. Stalks and Hoovers any and every single time I leave. Never fails. I’ve even had a restraining order before. Nothing works.
Aloha🌺 In my opinion and experience, the discarding phase does not always involve physical abandonment. The fact that he had a girlfriend while still in a relationship with you might be a form of discard. Neglect and withholding are other possible tactics.
I do not think the phases are always rigidly distinct nor traverse extended periods of time. The cycle can occur, especially the longer you are in the relationship, in one conversation or one day.
The man I left years ago, who continues his vindictive rage and destruction, would profess his undying love for me while simultaneously ruining an aspect of my life.
He has a successful career and is practically intelligent, but as Vaknin accurately describes, these people suffer a stunted development. It can be confusing to interact with someone who uses adult vocabulary yet possesses the underlying psychology of a small angry child.
I hope you remain free of this cycle, it is a deplorable waste of human life and ability!
@@Beleeber No. I’m saying that during the time he had a girlfriend he was upset with me because I had a boyfriend as well. It took me 4 years to start dating. He had someone the same week. He thought I was wrong for moving on even though he had a girlfriend himself.
@@shiloh7344 You misunderstood. I did all the leaving. On one of those occasions I had gotten a restraining order against him and he had another girlfriend that same week. He got upset with me when I moved on FOUR YEARS LATER. He kept trying to talk, date, and everything while he had this girlfriend. When he sent flowers he would get mad at me for not saying thank you or acknowledging him. He showed up at my house almost daily while he had this girlfriend. I’m going to stop here because the story is 15 years long and the FBI even had to get involved.
@@Beleeber No he didn’t threaten me. When it expired we spoke about it…. Well no, HE spoke about it. I say this because he completely dominated the “discussion” and I never got a word in. He said he was bitter and wanted me to pay do redo the vacation over again. He took me to the Bahamas and assaulted me on international waters. That’s the reason for the FBI. My mother warned me not to go and I should’ve known better. He ruins every vacation and holiday so I shouldn’t have expected to have a good time. This was the first and only time he ever laid a hand on me. He was embarrassed and afraid of the backlash once we got back home and promised to never do it again and he hasn’t. That may be the only promise he ever kept but I enforced it with a restraining order.
@@Beleeber the restraining order was for a year. He contacted me 3 months into it through a texting app.
Thank you. This helped explain several things. The main for me was my struggle to forgive them they know not what they do, when they sure do know. It's that they don't know why.
@@vikkiweigel2504 my dad told me he didn't care to hear it. Which means I have no say, no voice. He knows the truth but doesn't care.
I hung on every word and think this is a truly remarkable coverage of this pandemic, Prof Vaknin is the real deal!
I think being a narcissist is very painful
Do you think narcissists have no consciousness of pain they caused? Feel nothing? No regret?
u dont need to "hurt loved ones" to be a narc, genius@@garykeating4964
@@karenarev conciousness is simply awareness so no, i dont think that. and. no. everyone has the capacity to regret their actions. you mean remorse. i don't experience that, and on second thought i can't recall a time that i actually did. There are concerns for consequences, which manifest as anxiety, which appears to be remorse, however it is just anxiety or frustration at the root. edit: since writing this comment i realize i'm not primarily narcissistic but rather psychopathic (my clinician referred me to BPD and NPD but she is an absolute dunce so i don't care)
@@karenarevthey have fear for the consequences of their actions. I don't know how much they have what you or I would call "regret" or "remorse".
You have to have a core being to experience those things, and it's impossible to imagine what it's like to not have an inner core of being.
I'd imagine it's *stressful* to be a narc, but not necessarily sad to them. You're assuming they have the same heart as you or any other non-narc, which they do not.
Why would they be sad for hurting something they view as a mere object? And that's the bottom line of it: the narc views you, me and every other person in the world as mere objects.
The main thing they suffer from are the consequences of their actions, but I don't think they experience "pain" in the way you may think.
@@jazeenharal6013 it's all very confusing. The professor says that Narcs breed Narcs. My mother as far as I understand is some kind of a Narc. So where does that leave me? Am I also a Narc? I do have feelings and feel remorse. But I see a strong conviction on oline community to blame this disorder proudly. Isn't this just another defense mechanism created to mask anger and projection?
Agree with cluster B as diagnosis instead of menu of subtypes. - layman/Psych student
Has anyone found any practical separation therapy for this?
Watch the NA recovery and healing playlist.
Thank you 💙
What if we met at school and married for 25 years 🤔 this is half my fault then surly at 16/17 he was not narcissistic till years later when ours sons got to about 8 things changed they are now 20,11 and 3 think honestly our third pushed him too far I finally put him out at xmas
Hahaaa Get rid of this shared fantasy ! “YouAreHigh!”😂 Love this Sam 😊
I found out my husband had gone outside the marriage on Xmas day I went no contact
Thanks Sam.
How can narcs hold adult jobs, when there emotional maturity is that of such a young child
?
You do not need emotional maturity to hold a job, only cognitive maturity. This is how machines are perfectly capable of replacing human jobs.
I laughed so fucking hard during the "babies suck" diatribe lmao
I have 4 kids. Love them all incredibly! But you're not wrong haha! Thank goodness for oxytocin.
Dr Vaknin. I work in behavorial health and I was recently in a relationship with a man I believe suffers from NPD , there were times when I literally saw that child before me. It was quite shocking to see a frightened little person in front of me as if i was a horrible person. Im familiar with dissociation, I would love to learn more from you about this type of dissociation if possible.
Watch the From Child to Narcissist playlist and search the channel for “dissoc”.
Is there a light side?
There is not. Get away from them.
100 % sir sam vaknim
.My Narcissist demanded that i. provide him with my email😢 password, telephone number and amount of money i have in checking account...He, then, announced he was married to me, without, even meeting..he stated that i must "submit to ur man"..wee had, only, texted at that point.
He love bombed. Then, later, he started the deevaluation stage after i broke up with him for first time.
😂😂😂😂 i like the question about self awareness of narcissists.Marred ? If you can only count their mistresses , thousands.
Sorry until I had to arrange cover fir work he says he misses us and he's thinks I'll still take him back is it because I put him out he didn't finish the discard faze that he's doing this?
He has not got another great source. Will come back and treat you worse, takes you taking him back as accepting his behaviour. Will get much worse. Will find other better sources then discard you again. Forever cycle that gets more painful. Choose how many times you want to jump on.
I'm guessing you aren't trained, licensed or have the knowledge/experience to diagnose personality disorders. Especially on close family members, where your own biases and self-interests would make an accurate assessment impossible. Narcissism is the latest buzzword that allows us to discard people without the work or honest discomfort of understanding another human and making compromises because we value their company. Before you diagnose your loved ones, take a deep look at yourself first and note your faults, foibles and imperfections. Then sit down and talk to them. "Hey, is there something wrong? Are you okay?" Explain how their behavior has affected you, ask why they've been acting a certain way, and see if they are willing to change or at least try to change. They may say they act that way because of they way you have been treating them. Don't try to deflect or invalidate negative things they say about you, be prepared to own that shit and do some changing yourself. Because, guess what, You are not perfect. If they just deny or gaslight things you know for certain are true (facts) then maybe (MAYBE!) you have a narcissist on your hands. Remember, depression, anxiety, ptsd, etc etc can be confused with narcissism to the arm chair, dunning-kruger psychologist.
Hi Sam Please can you give us the data of the scientific study on the brain waves you mentioned in which the narcissist's brain waves are coordinated with the victim's brain waves. Thank you
Search the channel for "entrain".
@@samvakninHi Sam, thanks for your response, that's very kind of you. I think I already found the video where they talk about these studies where the coordination of brain waves between the narcissist and their victim is observed, I'm only halfway through and I hope it's the video, in fact this is the link and please let me know if is what is right ua-cam.com/video/gHAeew65frU/v-deo.htmlsi=Yl30qElNvpZjICti
The problem with the theory about genetic cause's based on 5 siblings with different out comes, and same parent/ treatment, is that the parent at the beginning, ( with the first child) isn't the same parent with the 2nd 3rd and definitely not the last, because people change and evolve and age ( get tired) Basically change with time , also the 1st child may not have the support of the 2nd 3rd because siblings do support each other, sometimes the last child is left alone to deal with abuse as the others have grown , moved out / away and the 1st child also doesn't have the support of older siblings.
True. But we have the same outcomes with non-identical twins: one becomes a narcissist, the other doesn't.
@samvaknin that is interesting , could be one gets targeted more than other for some reason , definitely worth the research.
@@sheerkatdotcomtrauma can happen in many areas of life; also you can build resilience if lucky