Evidences of the Book of Mormon: Plates
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- Joseph Smith claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from a set of golden plates that were given to him by an angel named Moroni. After the translation was completed, however, Joseph reported that he returned the plates to the angel. Because of this they are unavailable for examination today. Is there any evidence that the plates actually existed, or must believers accept Joseph Smith's account strictly on faith? Who were the three and eight Witnesses whose testimonies have appeared in the Book of Mormon since 1830? And did anyone besides the official witnesses see the angel or physically encounter the plates? This video explores the history behind the witnesses to the Book of Mormon and explains why their combined testimony strongly indicates that Joseph Smith did in fact possess plates "with the appearance of gold" which he translated by the gift and power of God.
To learn more about the plates and the witnesses, read the KnoWhy articles here:
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So what you’re saying is that there is no evidence of the plates
Well if eye witness testimony is not evidence a lot of criminals will need to be freed.
So do you reject the validity of all Witnesses or just those you disagree with? What about the Bible, the majority of events can not be confirmed without appeal to witnesses. A majority of convictions in the US legal system are based on testimony. All of those should be thrown out?
@@brettmajeske3525 Then if you dont believe the witnesses in the Bible, why should people believe in the bom?
@@allisonalexander2269 What makes you think Brett doesn't believe the witnesses in the Bible? Go back and read it again. Without any preconceived notions.
Hylandan The most important, that God want us to know the Truth by the Power of Holy Ghost!! Faith is your power to find the Truth!
If an angel of God showed them the plates and they believed that those words were divinely inspired and saw with thier own eyes that it was true and real, why would they EVER falter and leave the church...
Shannin gaskin , good point...
I have known a lot of people who say that they know that the church is true and yet they still decide to be inactive. Believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ is much easier than living it. When you throw persecution and suffering on top of that it makes it even more difficult. For example Peter denied his savior 3 times even though he new he was the Son of God and witnessed many miracles. But, it doesn't change the fact that he still believed in Jesus as the Son of God. On top of that many of the leaders in the synagogues believed in Jesus when they heard his teachings and saw him work miracles but still refused to admit it out loud because they cared more about what the people of the world would think of them than what God would think. John 12:43
God did not call upon men who were perfect to be his witnesses for the BoM but rather men that he knew would not deny. The fact that some of the witnesses left church does not weaken the case for there divine testimonies but actually strengthens it because it weakens the other side of the argument for motive.
@@paulbrungardt9823 The prophets of the Old testament were polygamist as well. And in the eyes of the people of their day they were criminals too.
Free agency. The host just said that all witnesses said that they all maintained their testimonies of the plates and the angels. It is to the skeptics to prove that it did not happen.
@@paulbrungardt9823 Do you have any prove from first hand sources that Joseph even made that so called moon prophecy?
Sorry, but you have very low standards of evidence.
Actually eye witness accounts will get you a conviction in a court of law.
@@caseykaelin2352 Travis Walton also had eye witnesses to Alien abduction, plus passed polygraph tests. You're grasping for straws.
@@bebeezra lf we are going to dismiss eye witness accounts why not dismiss the gospels? They are just eye witness accounts.
@@caseykaelin2352 *BINGO!* You are on to a train of thought few choose to follow to its logical conclusion.
You are correct, the Bible is riddled with discrepancies, many of them irreconcilable contradictions. *Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John didn't even write the Gospels.*
It is hard to know whether Moses ever existed and what, exactly, the historical Jesus even taught. The historical narratives of the Old Testament are filled with legendary fabrications. The book of Acts in the New Testament contains historically unreliable information about the life and teachings of Paul to name just a few.
Most of the books of the New Testament are *pseudonymous* -written not by the apostles but by later *writers claiming to be apostles.*
Someone who lives nearly a century after you, writes in your name pseudonymously is *not* a reliable "eye-witness" testimony of anything.
_"The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable."_
- James A. Garfield
Did you ever stop to think that people don't want to admit they're liars because of social repercussions?
Did you ever stop to think that they had no reason to lie?
But Joseph did not lie.
Joseph Did Lie... Joseph Lied to Emma about polygamy, in fact he married 22 wives before telling Emma.. So he did in fact lie.. If he lied to Emma then why would he not have lied about the plates?? @@tucuxi70
As a former Mormon, it makes me so sick seeing educated guys like this one defend the integrity of the church history. It makes me sick because you know they know the facts, yet choose to carefully arrange the story in order to make it sound legit. Focusing on the 5% of Mormon history that paints a heavenly picture of the church, and ignoring the 95% that damns it.
Very well stated.
Bingo
It's actually the other way around. Richard Bushman interestingly points out that in the case of early Mormonism it’s the critics. not the Mormons, who have to dispose of the primary sources, the historical documents. You have to just get rid of them because you have the witnesses saying, “Look, I held them.”, “I saw with these eyes, I know what I'm talking about”.
@@havegottogitgud1864 ok.... Martin Harris witnessed for other religions too so you HAVE to believe in the other religions if that is your logic. Most of the witnesses also said Joseph was a fallen prophet so you HAVE to believe them on that, or do you get to pick and choose?
@@utahbac9882
The key issue here is of three honorable men reporting the same complex audiovisual vision. Even if you want to dismiss the Three Witnesses you have the Eight and Mary Whitmer to deal with.
Has anybody done spacial studies to estimate the expected density of characters on the plates, their equivalent font size, and what languages would have the capacity to convey 500+ pages of text on plates that meet the specifications described by witnesses?
All I know is that one character represents one idea that would cover several words -- like Japanese or Chinese characters (conji)
Ward radio podcast had a guest on their show a while ago that talked about it for a bit
Why all the hate? If you don't believe or aren't interested, that's fine. Go live your lives and find some joy. Some of us find our joy in the Book of Mormon; why do you care?
Because you indoctrinate your innocent children with rubbish, and you try and spread absurd crap like Native Americans (like me) have Middle Eastern roots.
It still blows my mind that grown adults with fully functioning brains are willing to believe the supernatural.
Either they are wrong or you are nearsighted.
Often religion can give people a moral compass and something to live/die for. You might not need that, but a lot of people do.
@@karel8y I vote wrong.
If any of those 3 had ever gone back on their initial statements , they had everything to lose! Their integrity, honesty, and reputation would have been destroyed ruining their livelihoods. J Smith had access to making metal plates cause his father had a shed to fashion metal objects. Also for all the hoopla surrounding these “places”, he never even needed them. He never used them in any translation or copy any manuscript whatsoever. And, tell me, if any you had really seen those miraculous set of plates, would you EVER leave that church? No. After the real apostles witnessed events surrounding Jesus’s resurrection, they not only stayed, but they went to their deaths in defense of what they saw. Plates were a fraud.
I wonder where the Book of Mormon came from then? Even if Joseph Smith fabricated the book, there must be a God and
who does he help? Is this one of his many lies? Well, I guess he wasn't in Liberty Jail then. He didn't break down the
Nauvoo Expositor printing press. He didn't go to Massachusetts looking for money to help with debts. I could probably
name others. Oh I guess polygamy is a fraud too.
@@stanleyhall8951 I’m not sure what you are saying. Are you defending Smith?
Yes I'm defending Smith. It's all part of his history what I stated.
To denounce a persecuted faith throughout the eastern united states would not ruin their livelihoods, what a fabricated narrative. People would have lauded them with praise because many were against them.
@@boltrooktwo Are you defending Joseph Smith? You must not be aware of the reasons he personally was being “persecuted” as you call it. He defrauded many folks along the way, first starting with his treasure seeking fiasco, then forming his own army and claiming his kingship, burning down the Nauvoo printing press building and finally establishing an illegal anti bank defrauding dozens out of their savings. That was the group who came after him when he was finally captured having been on the run. While in jail,, he was given a smuggled gun and killed 2 men before the angry mob got the best of him. He was definitely not a martyr, just a common criminal who was so charismatic, folks believed his lies, even poor Emma.. I suggest if you want to know the true history and not what you’ve been told, that you seek out the amazing documents and evidence of a former Mormon Susan Tanner at Utah lighthouse ministries If you really want to know the truth, then you should have no fear investigating. Your eternity actually is at stake because it depends on what you believe about Jesus Christ and the Word of God. That’s the only reason I’m so passionate about sharing what I know.
If this counts as unrefutable evidence, that means big foot, the lochness monster, and aliens at Roswell are all true, which is exciting to me!
And considerably more plausible 😁
disagree, The things you compare the Book of mormon too are incomparable. Of course there is no evidence of the book of Mormon, the angel took it all back after the work was done. The fact that there is no evidence of the Book of Mormon is ACTUALLY PROOF of its truth.
@@mikkifrompreston4396 Hah Good one
@@mikkifrompreston4396 lol
@@mikkifrompreston4396 What is wrong with the bible? There is a warning that if anything is added to it or taken away from it, or another god is preached about. The Book of Mormon, which LDS missionaries will try and convince you is a testament of prophets who lived on the American continent. It is completely false and there have been attempts to find artifacts and proof of its claims. One glaring falsehood is that the Book of Mormon states in Alma 7:10 that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. Clearly, that is untrue, as the bible states He was born in Bethlehem.
I would say to anyone reading this comment, the Mormon church bears all the hallmarks of a cult. '...a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.' The teaching that Jesus was once a man that became a god and that man can become a god, is heresy, espoused by the Mormons. The final object is to stand before Jesus and Joseph Smith to be judged 'worthy'.
The Mormon Jesus is very different to the one in the bible that died for the sins of mankind and promises that those who believe in Him and call on His name shall be saved.
'He who has ears, let him hear." Matthew 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
I'm not a Latter day saint but am fascinated about these issues. Could you guys estimate how much 40-60lb lead, iron, copper or tin cost back in 1829, Palmyra? It would tell something about the forgeing theory. Could Joseph Smith have realistically afforded to that amount of metal?!
Definitely if he used Tin. Also, Tin checks out on the weight 40-60 pounds. Gold does not, it would be much heavier. Tin plates would have been easy to craft, then keep them covered up so there is an actual physical object that people could see or even touch, even though there was little or nothing actually inscribed on the blank tin plates. The "sealed portion" that people like Emma "felt" I imagine was a solid portion of tin because Joseph didn't want to take the time to make that many more individual tin plates. The reason the plates needed to be gold is because Joseph already had a "gold treasure" yarn he has spun up leading into the year when he "found" the plates. He had been spinning up this yarn about the golden treasure for many years. He realized over time the treasure thing was not going to fly, but a hidden ancient record could work. It was a common fraud practiced back in that time to claim someone found a hidden ancient record that they translated back in that day. Don't ask me why, just cultural I guess because of all the speculation of the history of Native Americans.
The Book of Mormon (BoM) has a lot of text, including reoetutuiysbess abd excursions which including on metal would have been quite expensive. I have a problem imagining how such a long, wandering text could be written down (engraved by hand) on so little metal. I have all kinds of other doubts about the BoM, but I'l leave it at that for now. My maternal grandfather and family Mormons go back several generations, close to the history re. Salt Lake City, where my mother and uncle were born. Their father (my grandpa) had 22 wives in all, which made life hellish for my dear mother and my uncle, her brother. i am Lutheran.
I don’t know you but I have a love for you and your good ancestors. Hope you make it back some day brother.
Assuming there were100-200 pages, the plates would have weighed 200 lbs. if they were indeed a gold-steel alloy.
@@CadillacBunner The witnesses all agree they were between 40-60 pounds. Therefore very little gold in the alloy. I suspect they were copper or copper alloy due to all of the ancient prehistorical copper mines in the northwest. They can be gold in color. But we know they were 40-60 pounds through eyewitnesses.
I have ocean front property in Kansas for sale I have signed statements from my family and friends if you want evidence
Gary Stavropoulos that is hilarious !!!!!!
@jouxpane what a bad troll
@jouxpane wat
@jouxpane not cool bro
@jouxpane how am i ridiculing your beliefs? I guess thats your belief making reference of Godly things to dirty jokes...😏
The issue I have with the "witnesses" is that they were made up almost entirely of family members of both Smith and Whitmer. The lack of credible witnesses outside the familial influence of Smith and Whitmer is quite suspect. Further, and briefly, we have no other historical record of an angelic delivery of writings wherein the writings were "given back" after they were allegedly translated. In other words, it seems to fall well outside the realm of plausible, especially in view of the lack of any evidence whatsoever that they ever existed in the first place. Had an angel asked the finders of the Nag Hammadi or Dead Sea Scrolls to put them back after they had examined them, then perhaps we could lend at least a minimal amount of credence to the story. But again, 13 of the witnesses were related directly to Smith or Whitmer.
So what? God works in mysterious ways.
Not to mention the Harris & Whitmer families had interest in the production of the BOM as (Harris) had invested in funding for the printing of it and they were planning on selling the book for money....
@@chubbuck35 Which would only matter if he actually made any money off the deal, when he did not.
@@chubbuck35 But they never received any money from the sale. That would seem to disprove your assertion.
I agree. I didn’t know they were relatives of Joseph Smith. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Joseph Smith indicted for fraud? Why would God choose him as a prophet with so many decent non criminals to choose from?
The story is unbelievable on its face. The lds is a cult religion.
That’s one of the biggest mysteries of all: William McLellin was excommunicated three times, yet maintained a testimony of the Book of Mormon throughout his life. He hates Joseph Smith, wanted him dead. But he wouldn’t bash the BoM. Human psychology is strange indeed
The Mormon Church is a natural draw for religious flakes and fruitcakes... all those unhappy with the contents of the Bible!
Almost like the witnesses didn’t want to be branded as liars and frauds later in life by admitting it was all made up. Not that strange, actually.
the fact that someone who first hand witnessed that event and still left the church is all you need to know. imagine if peter, after witnessing the resurrection of jesus, eventually decided christianity wasnt for him… that’d utterly undermine everything.
Is there a second part to this that isn't linked? This is titled "Evidences" yet I haven't heard anything other than accounts of a tiny handful of people that, unless I'm mistaken, are all related in some very close way. I know little of Mormonism other than it should be very clear to any rational person that these plates never existed and the entire story was fabricated to give Smith and his followers more power. Can someone please link me some physical evidence? Otherwise I'd be happy to tell you the story, corroborated by many of my friends and family that this was all made up. They'll be very consistent in that throughout their lifetimes, so using the "logic" in this video, that this was all made up. Scary.
Ross Carlson your right that don’t exist on this planet or in this world! God has them now, he did this to test our faith.
If you don't already believe and are rational you won't be convinced.
Show me some physical evidence of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, other than what is written by witnesses in the New Testament or prophesied about in the Old Testament.
Jesse Crawford The new testament was not written by witnesses and many of the "prophecies" of the old testament are not about Jesus or are not even prophecies.
Gary Stavropoulos show me the physical evidence of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.
Whitmer first heard of Joseph Smith and the golden plates in 1828 when he made a business trip to Palmyra, New York, and there talked with his friend Oliver Cowdery, who believed that there "must be some truth to the matter."[9]
ok.......?
Oliver was Josephs cousin
Later, Whitmer and Cowdery would "out" Smith as an adulterer for the Fanny Algier affair... guess the angel didn't impress them, much?
Can somebody please explain this to me: if God went through all the trouble for 800 years for these ancient prophets to record all these writings, a lot of people dying to preserve these golden plates. Why then did God just have Joseph Smith look at a rock that he found while digging a well, by putting it in a top hat, in order to translate, while the plates themselves sat covered in linen or sometimes not even in the same room? I cannot figure that one out.
Jared Grant why did Christ have to use mud to restore the site of a blind man. I would have preferred that he used a more sophisticated method. When was the last time you produced a work comparable to the book of Mormon with your head buried in a hat? Try to produce even one chapter. Maybe Alma 36 which is written in ancient Hebraic form, inverted parallelisms. This is ancient Hebraic chiasmus which was unknown to the best scholars in Joseph Smith’s time let alone a frontier farm boy with less than two years of formal education. Am I impressed? Very. Then there is the powerful spirit that accompanies the book of Mormon which powerfully testifies of Jesus Christ. I know the Holy Spirit when I feel it. It doesn’t hurt my feelings how it was translated.
I think the hat method actually proves that he wasn't reading from any other source. Translating or "transmitting" an average of 3-5000 words per day, which is virtually impossible by today's standards, throws all the theories that he copied from something right out the window.
Dado6 yeah it’s not like people can make things up on the spot
@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 I doubt jared grant will even try proving your point.
@@theaprilfool1109 try it see if you can get even one fallower to your church with your book that you wright from a hat.
If I write that I’ve seen them, does that make the story true?
I have serious questions about the 3 and 8 witnesses. For starters, Martin Harris wasn't even there when the angel appeared. That's troubling because he was the most skeptical due to the fact that he was under pressure to mortgage his farm to pay the publisher. In the end, Joseph had to convince him he had seen the angel after he assured him the books copyright would be sold for a profit in America or Canada. And the 8 witnesses are less impressive when you realize they all come from just two families, the Smiths and the Whitmers. When you consider Oliver Cowdery was Josephs cousin you realize that the entire charades of witnessing gold plates was likely to convince one man, Martin Harris, to pay for the publishing with the promise of making money. Joseph needed Martin Harris to pay for the publishing so bad he agreed to allow Martin to scribe for the entire translation. This fell apart when Martin Harris demanded to show the first 116 pages to his wife as proof of the work they were doing. Martin lost the pages and the plan was almost completely destroyed. Joseph had to sneak out of town in the middle of the night to come up with a plan on how to replace the lost pages. God told him to stay in his hideout and take a year off until a new scribe could be sent to him. The new scribe, Oliver Cowdery, shows up and the translation is completed in a couple of days. My guess is that Oliver Cowdery already had the completed replacement pages before he ever found Joseph. Oliver arrived in Palmyra first and then found Joseph in PA. He probably needed Joseph Sr. to tell him were Joseph Jr. was hiding. If God was really sending Oliver to Joseph as he promised, it would make more sense to just send him directly to the hideout. God would know where that is after all and translating the book is a priority I would assume. Anyway, the three witnesses saw a vision so that's all good I guess except the bit about Martin not being there. The 8 witnesses could have been fooled by just a couple of tin plate mock ups. If I saw one or two tin plates that were golden in color I wouldn't be lying if I said "I saw and handled golden plates". They show in the images the 8 witnesses holding a big gold book of plates but the testimony says "as many of the leaves". To me it sounds like Joseph handed them one or two loose plates. It would be nice if we ever got to see actual signatures of these men but no signatures have ever been published. The signatures that were published are all in the handwriting of Oliver Cowdery. Seems suspicious, maybe even fraud? David Whitmer said he did sign his own name and was surprised to see his name in Olivers handwriting. Another person who was there said David Whitmer asked Oliver to sign for him. Seems legit. It would also be nice if the church still had the golden plates. Churches hold on to there artifacts like hoarders. The LDS church just published pictures of the seer stone Joseph used. Whats the big deal about not showing the plates. The plates are physical and have been on Earth for hundreds, thousands of years even. Why did God take them? Another thing that would be nice is if Joseph actually used the plates in the translation process. All the trouble to forge gold and engrave on the plates, then preserve them in the hill and Joseph didn't need them at all for the translation process? He left them in other rooms of the house while he looked at his seer stone in his hat. Could have happened I suppose. In the end the Book of Mormon is true. As long as you ignore the anachronisms, the King James Bible plagiarisms, the Late War plagiarisms, the horses, the wheat, the barley, the silk, the elephants, the wheels, the coins, the metals, the compass, the submarines, the lack of any definable geographical locations, the lack of wives names, the lack of Jewish feasts and rituals, the lack of music and colors, the Greek words (Christ), the French word (not kidding), the lack of cold weather like snow storms or winter, and the lack of anything Mormonism whatsoever like baptism for the dead, temple sealings, temple endowments, temple washings, home teaching, polygamy, bi-annual general conference, patriarchal blessings, stakes, wards, bishops, deacons, the fact that Jesus suffered in the garden and not on the cross, the fact that God the Father is a physical exalted man, the fact that Mary was not a virgin, the fact that the atonement does not cover murder... ignore all this... and the Book of Mormon is true... probably.
Your argument is ridiculous....it never ceases to amaze me that so called Christians will hold the Book of Mormon and the Prophet Joseph Smith to their brand of "testing" yet fail to see that these same tests placed upon the Bible and the prophets therein would garner the same result. According to their "tests" it is crazy that Joseph Smith actually was able to translate using a stone, but yet it''s perfectly plausible that Moses parted the Red Sea by raising a staff.
It's actually a good thing when the most skeptical witness ends up believing in his experience, and invests money in something he believes in, and never retracts his testimony.
Referring to any of them as skeptical is like pointing out the tallest midget or the nicest guy in prison.
Nathan Wilson midgets are not tall people in prison probably are not very nice. The "witnesses" saw the plates under a cloth and lifted a box they were allegedly in. Are you able to determine the contents of boxes simply by lifting them or knowing exactly what is hidden under a cloth? They were not skeptical. It seems more likely they were gullible or In on the con.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not man made, i assure you that. And someday you will come to know that brother.
If you were just reading the comments you'd think this video had like 1 like and 10k dislikes 😂. But then again, videos about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints generally attract a ton of very... emphatic protesters.
I basically came here to see how ludicrous their proof was so yeah ... checks out.
There's a reason so many people don't believe in the book of Mormon, and are interested in how/why people believe it and attempt to defend its veracity/legitimacy.
@@Mockturtlesoup1 You're certainly right about that!
@@Mockturtlesoup1 Aside from the concepts of a Modern Prophecy, Secret History, and American Pride it's just like any other religious sect of Christianity especially when you compare their revisionist superstition to that of Catholicism.
The Mormon Church is like any other Christian Denomination but it actually receives way more backlash from Critics because of all of the false propaganda that makes them look ridiculous.
All you have to do is watch or read actual teachings directly stated by the Mormon Church and you will realize how everyone got Mormons all wrong and how naive and gullible they were to listen to Conspiracy Theories and Negative Gossip.
Don't tell me people actually believe their crazy relatives with no doubt like they're Jesus Christ himself.....
That's because the whole story is so ludicrous. I'd say that videos about the church of Scientology's doctrines re: the evil galactic warlord Xenu get a lot of negative comments too.
What's strange to me is that of all three witnesses saw an angel give Smith the golden plates, and the power to read it, to create a religion....left their religion. Why leave something that was clearly born out of the supernatural? That's weird
Steven Young Martin Harris, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdrey all left the church Due to a falling out with the Prophet Joseph Smith. Each one vehemently defended the literal reality of their testimonies. Later, Oliver Cowdrey and Martin Harris did return to the church and were rebaptized. Although David Whitmer continued to feel that the main body of the church were in error, He defended his testimony emphatically throughout his long life. None of the three ever denied their testimonies. Each of them had deathbed experiences where they all told of the literal reality of the vision they saw and heard. Is this proof? No, only a reason to read the book of Mormon, ask God for your own witness of its truthfulness. Good luck friend
I love the typical passive-aggressiveness that comes along with Mormon apologetics. It's the usual F-U with a smile.
Steven Young No passive aggressiveness at all on my part. Just sharing some cool historical facts and extending a hand in friendship. Thanks for Sharing your thoughts Steve.
@@boogersnut You're stupid.
@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 what I find strange is the fact that while they left a church after seeing an angel, they would not deny the fact they saw said angel and the plates. people can leave a religion for many reasons however God told these men if they held true to their testimonies that they would be justified by the lord, they didn't need to be active members to be saved they needed to keep and hold true to their testimony which they did. why did they should be your next question.
Maintaining their testimonies was actually the more self-interested move. It is certainly better for PR to commit to your testimony of an absurdity than to admit that you were at one point lying and perpetuating a scam. You see the same thing with many crypto projects today. Teams are forced to pretend that they believed in their projects to avoid prosecution when the whole point was just to scam people.
Back then, however the law wasn't as strong as it is today (e.g.- hate crimes, protection etc). So for many of these witnesses (especially the ones that left the church initially) You'd think that "self preservation" of self + family would be the most important. (Due to corrupt judges, mobs, persecutors of the saints, etc). So recanting (especially if it weren't true) would be much easier. However knowing what they knew (and the fact that all witnesses) held true - should give one pause for thought. Perhaps - their own testimonies, and moral consciences and fear of God (for the truth) was more important to them than what others outside the faith thought. Anyway food for thought :)
@@nute742 The law was apparently strong enough for Joseph Smith to be convicted of being a Con Man
@@nute742 Joseph Smith said that the moon was inhabited by people six feet tall who dressed like Quakers and lived to be 1,000 years old (Source: Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, a devout Mormon contemporary of Joseph Smith; copy at Utah State Historical Society, Vol. 2, p. 166). Smith said the "gulf stream" resulted from the city of Enoch being taken out from the place where the Gulf of Mexico is. LOLOLOLOL
@@Baltimore813 Hey, who knows? (truth is stranger than fiction, lol). Moses parted the red sea and adam lived over 900 years and the city of enoch was taken up into heaven (?) So there is definitely a lot we know (but even more than we still don't know). Interesting things to ponder
@@Baltimore813 The law also convicted Christ too! (Laws of men are not always just). Many good people over 1000s of years have been put into prison, enslaved or abused. (hopefully we can all do better in the future). This will be so when Jesus returns (very shortly)
I’m so glad God haven’t claimed the holy Bible back to heavens...
You know where the tablets with the 10 Commandments are?
@@jwhippet8313 STUPID analogy. Your entire BS book is based on these plates. THERE IS NO evidence at all outside the BOM that Jesus visited the Americas. When Jesus appeared in the Holy Land there was literally an explosion of written and physical evidence to confirm it. There is no such evidence for the BOM. You are deceived.
Jay Lexter how could a 14 year old boy conjure up 600 + pages? Tell me.
Jay Lexter we don’t need proof, our evidence lies in our testimony
@@jwhippet8313 Ethiopia.
You say the they had nothing to gain or lose after showing a newspaper article of one defending his testimony.
He would lose reputation through notoriety... Which would ruin you, especially amongst religious people...
He gained fame. Which is always lucrative...
Joseph Smith ended up losing his life, sadly. Very few prophets are received by their countrymen.
@@johnroberts6695 JS lost his life as he tried to escape prison by violence. He was no prophet, just a little fraud who finally got what was coming to him.
@@jaylexter1029 So Joseph Smith was trying to shoot a peacefully-led mob of concerned citizens who came to the Carthage Jail to voice their concerns about Mormonism? And with no provocation, he commenced to shoot them. Is that what you're saying? And that he was trying to escape justice with a cheap pepperbox pistol that misfired more than it fired? You are, sir, delusional. Do some research before you come here and look foolish. Joseph Smith was a good, decent, honorable man and you have no idea what you're talking about.
The book of Mormon is a true testament of Jesus Christ. I encourage all to study, ponder and pray for your own witness from God. It was through revelation that Peter knew that Jesus was the son of God and the Christ. It is through the Holy Spirit but you can also know that the book of Mormon is true and that the gospel of Christ with its proper keys and authority has been restored.
YES. Getting people to rely on revelation is too often met with ridicule and derision. And this ensures that many people will be populating the Terrestrial Kingdom, when they could have been inhabiting the Celestial Kingdom.
How do we know that these three witnesses "had nothing to gain" from maintaining the truth of their original accounts? There could easily be some things we simply aren't aware of.
Also, imo sticking with the lie would be much easier than having to admit you'd been lying to everyone the entire time, don't y'all agree?
@Azrael De Lion Yeah he lost me when he said "They had nothing to gain", that's a matter of perspective. Sometimes you have to hold to the lie because are ashamed of the truth and worry about the consequences. But I will say in defense of Mormonism the story of the golden plates has changed over the years. Some say it was a spiritual set of plates not a physical one.
Many of the witnesses were excommunicated, had ruined reputations, or both. Many of their families and their own lives were also in danger. They lost all power in the church and their personal lives, yet none ever retracted their testimonies (any record indicating they may have were second hand accounts written decades after they died by people who likely had little if no relation to the witnesses).
@@juliajohnson9491 All the more reason to stick to their story. Admitting any lie would make things that much worse for them, don't you think?
@@rhutabaga420 Possibly, but you forget that their lives were in great danger. That danger could have stopped had they stated the BoM was fabricated. Additionally, many felt that Joseph Smith had ruined their lives, so it would be probable that they would want to get back at him for ruining their lives. This would have been easiest to do by stating the plates weren’t real. Also, one witness had a falling out with Joseph Smith and left the church, but later rejoined after Smith died. That doesn’t sound like something someone would do if their account was fake. I’m not saying there’s no way you’re right, but it seems that the witnesses likely had very little, if anything, to gain from maintaining their testimonies.
@@juliajohnson9491 How would stating that it was all fabricated take the danger away?
Most of the witnesses were family relatives? What were their characters like, were they honest and is there any evidence of that?
There is. David Whitmer has countless sources of those who knew him after he left the church who testified of his character as a man of integrity and honesty.
joseph smiths family were money diggers. Which was illegal
So Let's get the Plates and do a fresh translation of the Book of Mormon .. As I am sure that as you are that the BoM has been Corrupted by updated versions by 4,000 changes
Lets get together. You bring the gold plates and I will bring a hat with a magic seer stone.
There is no proof whatsoever that the golden plates ever existed.
But there is some decent anecdotal evidence. Such evidence is used consistently in reconstructing historical events. I don't buy into the Mormon stuff, but comments like yours are just lazy.
Ross Carlsen............as a former Catholic (and later a former atheist) I can assure you that you will best be served by simply reading the Book of Mormon fully ---- and with a pure and open mind.........while actually seeing and handling the plates yourself would be nice, the Lord Jesus Christ's gospel asks of us to assess a matter through study and prayer ; and this is what the Apostle had in mind when he said : " prove all things" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)......as an aside, the BOM plates have something in common with the "Ark of the Covenant" -----both have been taken back to heaven (see Revelation --11:19--).....the only difference being that only the BOM plates had 12 eye witnesses that actually were allowed to touch the plates.......but you will best be served by approaching reading the BOM with a trusting and open mind ---- the same mindset that most accord the Bible with........I promise you that if you do this, a heavenly spirit will feel delicious in your soul as you read, and you will come to know by the revelations of the holy ghost that it is inspired of God........the BOM has the most delicious insights and healing doctrines, and if regularly read for the rest of your life, you will become all that your divine potential has waiting to be un-locked.......you will become a disciple of Christ........and this is the highest achievement of mortality.....and the key to inheriting "all that the Father hath" ........in short, the most powerful evidence the plates existed is not in touching the plates, but in reading repeatedly the whole book.
borrowed tomb lol no
@borrowed tomb Yea that's silly ! Not how it works ! Only if your praying to the devil ! You must first believe something could possibly be true before you can even have a possibility of receiving a spiritual witness.
I like how a dude who saw all this go down and still was like “nah imma, leave nuts to this”
Idk about y’all but if I saw an angel I don’t think I would ever “fall away” from the church...
Well, the prophet David in old testament was a man of God but still commit adultery. :)
South park on the mormons is gold. I highly recommend it.
Joseph Smith was too poor to afford lead, so it must have been gold Inside the box. Makes perfect sense.
That's not what the video was saying at all.
Where’s your proof
Martin Harris’ point was that Joseph didn’t have the money or resources to produce a forgery.
He never ended up saying they were gold, in fact he mentions that if they were too light to be gold
@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 In Grandins publishing their was a lending library.
Were the plates necessary for the lds faith, since they were not used in translation, the stone and hat was used according to what I studied,
One scholar, Don Bradley, has said that when Joseph translated with the Urim and Thummim it was required that the plates be present and uncovered, I believe likely when translating the lost 116 pages this is what occurred.
Also, we don't have every piece of the puzzle about what happened during the translation, so it's hard to set in stone what actually happened during that time period.
Did Joseph have to give the angel the secret handshake? Hahahaha
Dan Nulton - Really?? Of course he did... otherwise the Angel could not have told the difference between the real Joseph Smith he gave the plates too... and the fake one who returned the plates.
That's an intelligent comment
They found very similar description of plates in a Columbian tomb. Egyptian hyroglyphic with hebrew translation (alphabet). Not a LDS member. But just seems that there may be some truth to BOM.
I need a source for this please
@HelloDocMode
Gold Plates found by Marcos Montezuma in 2011.
If we take these testimonies as true, then we can infer that Joseph Smith did have plates. That's not unreasonable either, as similar plates in stone boxes have been found in other places. That still doesn't mean that he was able to translate them into English. Smith's false claims about the Book of Abraham should really cast doubt on his claims about the Book of Mormon.
As much as Id like to believe you, it doesn’t account for the very detailed, extremely difficult text of the plates that makes up the book, and their historical accuracy.
@@markcavandish1295 Well, that seems easy enough: Joseph Smith could simply have made it all up, probably inspired by things around him
@@markcavandish1295 Please tell me you don't actually believe that the BoM is historically accurate 🤣
@@jacobopstad5483 it’s easy to dismiss the book on the whole, I get it. But it’s also incredibly dishonest to discredit the amount of work that’s in there. This isn’t some novel like Lord of the Rings that he spent his life on. It’s much deeper, way more complex and has many more moving parts. It really does read similar to the Bible, so if it’s that easy to write why isn’t there more scripture out there believable enough to convince millions to join?
Have you ever read the Quran? It’s like reading dark ages literature. It’s very simple and stern. Very controlling.
Don’t get me wrong, I left the church years ago for my personal reasons, but you’ll need to come up with a better argument for discrediting the BofM.
@@markcavandish1295 As a creative work, yes, I agree that there is a lot of credit to give. It is a compelling story and has influenced history for nearly 200 years already. It is interesting that you mention Lord of the Rings. A quick google search tells me it took 12 years for JRR Tolkien to write and then 5 more years to publish The Lord of the Rings. How long did it take Joseph Smith?
At any rate, I also agree that there are other, much more damning reasons to discredit the BoM (DNA evidence, archeological evidence, eye-witness accounts of the "translation" process, etc. Take your pick).
At this point, I'm forced to conclude that Joseph Smith was a gifted and charismatic scam artist who was good at getting people to believe in supernatural claims.
I'm a Latter Day Saint and testify that The Book of Mormon is the word of God.
I am a Christian and I testify you have been deceived...
What difference does it make whether the plates existed or not? He used a rock in a hat, and often the plates were in a different room or hidden in the woods.
LOL
"So what’s the purpose of the plates? ... Well, they’re an absolutely indigestible lump in the throat of people like you. That’s what they’re there for. Because you can’t explain them away. And they should give you pause. You ought to think about this and what it implies. Whatever else you may think about Mormon theology ... there were plates. Where did they come from?" Daniel C. Peterson.
According to David whitmer , joseph looked into a hat to translate the BOM, the plates were never used in translation.....
David whither told different stories and was involved in persecuting the saints. He never denied seeing the plates but other than that he was not consistent with his story.
@@carryk7295 doesn't surprise me....
mostly correct, Joseph did a lot of translating with his face in a hat and the plates in another room. However he was still translating from the gold plates by the gift and power of God. And many will say that the plates served the role of being a catalyst for the spiritual experience and allowing him to translate them.
Strictly speaking, the plates were unnecessary, the book could have been written through direct inspiration from God with no tangible source material. However, the plates are necessary in the sense that they give concrete historical weight to his claims, even if they're only there to stump anti-mormons who can't explain them away.
@@KnuttyEntertainment The gold plates can easily be explained away. They never existed and Joseph Smith completely fabricated the Book of Mormon. There's mounds of evidence to prove this. Joseph Smith was a lying, treasonous, pedophile. He was certainly not the glorious human being the church portrays him to be. He was a liar literally lying to wives about his other wives claiming he didn't have other wives. His 1st wife caught him having sex out in a barn with one of his other wives when Emma didn't even know he had another wife. He stole other men's wives. 11 of his wives were still married to other men when they got married to Joseph. He sent some of those men off on missions and married their wives when they were gone.
He was a false prophet there were many prophecies he claimed to make which never came to fulfillment and all it takes is one not to happen for someone to be a false profit.
He was charged with treason and being held for trial for treason along with other things when he was killed.
That's certainly not a godly man. That's a man pretending to be a man of God when the reality of his action shows hes a follower of satan.
The claim by Joseph and the church has always been that they were translated by the "gift and power of God" He did use the Urim and Thummim at the beginning before switching to the stone and hat.
It doesn't really matter if Joseph had golden plates or not. Show me any manuscript, anywhere in the world, written in "Reformed Egyptian" to prove that this language actually existed. At least that 'mistranslated' Bible can still be translated today, because there are actual ancient manuscripts written in Hebrew and Greek.
Hebrews writing in a form of hieratic Egyptian has long been proven my friend. knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/did-ancient-israelites-write-egyptian
Zander Sturgill It's funny that the Hebrews, who had their own language and considered the Egyptians their enemies, would take on reformed Egyptian to start documenting their religious texts.
I guess so. The point is they did it, as archaeology demonstrates.
Hieratic 'might' be "Reformed Egyptian", but you don't know. Did Joseph copy any of the characters from the plates so that we can verify if it is Hieratic script?
In the Book of Mormon, Nephi says he was writing in Egyptian in 600BC. Archaeologists have found hundreds of artifacts in Israel, dating to around 600BC, demonstrating that ancient Hebrews did write in a type of Egyptian, and were even trained. That's what the article I sent you is saying. That language/writing was passed down 1,000 years from Nephi to Moroni. Moroni says they "altered" it according to their own language. If Joseph copied it, then he copied the altered version. Languages and writings change after 1,000 years. That is demonstrably true. The reformed Egyptian mentioned in the Book of Mormon is very plausible. Does this prove the Book of Mormon is true? No, it just proves that that little detail is plausible.
Are we not willing to accept the fact that in the early 19th century many Americans felt that the veil between the spiritual and the material was very thin. It would have been very easy to convince oneself that a dream or hallucination had actually happened physically. Even in our present world, where we accept material evidence and discount spiritual evidence, the temptation remains to confuse the two types of witness. Had there been 100, or even 50 or 25 witnesses whose independent accounts agreed on all essential particulars, the Mormon Church would be in a much better position to advocate for the existence of the golden plates. Since Smith was quoting ideas and information as early as 1824 that later appeared in the BOM, it's especially difficult to accept the story of the plates as anything more than a fanciful illusion in some young men's minds.
So, there are no further evidence other than internal witnesses. Expected too much from the video...
@Dominus Illuminatio Mea kindly refrain from that tone. It would turn off any potential converts as we are the reflection of our beliefs.
How can you be certain that you can trust your senses at all times? Have you heard of the term folie a deux?
This is a great effort to do some real apologetics. I see a few problems though
1. It makes the claim that they had nothing to gain and everything to lose by keeping their testimony. That wouldn't be true because if they admitting that they made up the story they would loose their reputation of being trustworthy, something that especially in that day meant a whole lot.
2. It downplays the importance of two of the men leaving the church. If this really was true that these men witnessed such an event why would they ever leave the church that God had miraculously confirmed to them?
3. Whitmers own testimony implies that they didn't actually see the angel since 'no man can see the face of an angel' which contradicts him saying he saw with his eyes.
4. The video keeps claiming that the fact that some of the witnesses either were excommunicated from the church or left the church helps corroborate the story. How does this follow? People leaving a group that they once supported shows they no longer believe not that they still believe.
5. It makes a grand assumption that we must take another follower of Mormonism's word for believing that Joseph Smith didn't have the resources to create a fake. If we simply assume that this was just part of the ruse then all of these other 'evidences' are clearly explained.
Bearded Disciple hahaha the guy said there's no proof Joseph faked the plates, hahaha. Yeah angels take stuff to heaven all the time.
RE: 1. I don't buy that fact that they'd lose their reputation of being trustworthy. They could've simply said they were tricked and provided an explanation of JS trickery (If that we actually the case). I don't think history would agree with you that they'd lose their reputation of being trustworthy since many Americans didn't trust / like Mormons anyhow.
RE: 2 and 4. If people left the church or believed it were a fraud why would they maintain their testimony of the events? It's a fairly simple concept. A modern example of this would be Leah Remini who had been a part of Scientology and is now openly critical of it after she left it.
RE: 3. I don't really get what your implying. Needs clarification.
RE: 5 : The only assumption that the video makes is you have to take another's word for something unless you have evidence to prove that what they are saying is false.
"Joseph "may" have done this and "probably" did that. Since the people who knew Joseph best treat the plates as fact, a skeptical analysis lacks evidence. A series of surmises replaces documented narrative."
Just because you don't like the facts doesn't mean you can fabricate another story without evidence to prove the original story incorrect.
Where'd he say that angels take stuff to heaven all the time. Sounds like a straw man to me.
Marcus Norton where did the angel take the plates then?
Marcus Norton you religious nut jobs always cry "straw man" when something sounds completely dumb as shit. Like an angel taking 300 lb plates into heaven.
I have a South Park view of Mormons and Mormonism.
The story is pretty wild, but
Iv never met a Mormon I didn't like.
However, Iv met plenty of Mormon haters whom I cant stand.
I try to avoid hateful assholes who just want to show off their false superiority by bashing good people.
It's nice to hear the perspective from people outside Mormonism and anti-Mormonism. Thanks.
Zander Sturgill
Thanks!
I love you guys and gals.
The southpark episode of mormons. I know funny.
I like everything you say except the bit about the Mezoamerican alloy.The hill Cumorah which is in the state of New York, is where Moroni said in the Book of Mormon that the last battles between the Nephites and Lamanites took place, and that this hill was also the repository he chose for the plates. How do you explain Moroni traveling from New York to Central America to get the alloy to make the plates, specially when in North America and around upstate New York, metals to make common alloys have been found to be present and available to the prophets of the Book of Mormon, including Moroni?
Nice does not mean that Mormons are not deceived. I do not hate Mormons. I have no reason to. They have never done anything to me. But if we tell them Mormonism is OK because they are nice people we do them a great disservice. Ask any ex- Mormon who has come out of that cult
Mary Whitmer's Nephew, who is the one who claimed it was Moroni who visited her, implied that Mary misunderstood her experience.
In her original statement, she said that the person, who showed her the plates, introduced himself as "Brother Nephi."
The translation was not yet available to the public for her to know that name.
Moroni appeared to Joseph and the witnesses in the appearance of the prime of his life, as an angel would.
Yet "Brother Nephi" was described by Mary to be an old man of around 70, just as the "Three Nephites" or any other translated person would appear.
I would take her word for it as an actual witness Mary Whitmer, over the hearsay of someone like her nephew who changed the details.
🤣😂🤣🤣😂
Yes, and it isn’t possible that none of the folks perpetrating the fraud could have been talking about it before it was released to the unsuspecting public.
All these links of 'proof' link to a Mormon website. If that's not an open bias, then I don't know what is.
lol all anti Mormon theories are from born again web sites or people in science that have agendas. but nice try
@@iconacy Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present to you the one of the most common complexes associated with cults: 'Any one who disagrees with us is lying or has an agenda'.
In fact, a persecution complex is so powerful it's something that drives cult members to participate in activities they know will be demonized, just to say that they've been persecuted for their faith.
Its one bias or the other. "Neutrality" is an illusion
So 20-30 small plates contained enough information to fill a 500+ page book. I guess that works since Joseph didn’t even use the plates to translate them. You know, the more I think about Mormonism and examine apologists’ mental gymnastics, the more ridiculous it becomes.
You have free will to choose whatever you like. If you do find the one "right way" please tell us about it. I'd like to be on the right way, as well.
@@CadillacBunner There is no right way. That's the problem with religion
@@CadillacBunner life is meaningless and there is no god
Well ya see, 15% of the Book of Mormon text is copied straight from the Bible, and then there's the 1,404 repetitions of "and it came to pass." So the whole 500 pages didn't need to be on the golden plates.
@@CadillacBunner Jesus told us yhe “right way” when He declared that He was building His church on the “rock” and promised that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it. I’m gonna trust Jesus.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9)
What’s this background music?
The Book of Mormon is true. I don't need a video about mortal and fallible witnesses - I have the Holy Spirit's witness and the testimony of Christ that I was doing His work when I shared it. No testimony could have ever been so powerful as the witness I received from God.
You could turn those plates, through reasoning, into whatever you want to make them: a heavy brick, an imagination and a dark hat or a combined effort of several authors helping Joseph Smith. You can found some seemingly solid elaborate paradigm of reasoning whichever way you want for or against it to justify your intentions or skepticism. You can settle on that one most recent claim that supports your desires to believe or not believe.
Believing could make your life tougher or more full of joy. Some people suffer a life of pain and trials for Christ's sake, and some find a life of contentment, peace and joy because of the Gospel of Jesus Christ restored to the Earth. And just like science is always discovering endless small particle components and larger expanses of the Universe, you can do the same with Spiritual truth. With a particle of faith, you can get on your knees and pray with a sincere heart, and receive a witness. You can know over time through experience or instantly by the sure witness from God that it's all true.
The Book of Mormon is true. And what we need to gain salvation can only be found in the true Church of Jesus Christ. That church has been reestablished on the Earth at the command of Jesus Christ. It again is lead by a Prophet and 12 Apostles who are lead by Jesus Christ.
dude there is no evidence whatsoever that it happened. Just some people who said ' oh it happened ' therefore bigfoot has to exist cause many say he does...aliens exist..leprechauns, etc.
It's all true. I saw the plates just the other day when I was talking to Joseph Smith and the angel. They said that they were making an updated version and it would be released soon as a paperback and an ebook. I tried to convince them to make an audiobook, but they said that this might hurt the book sales, but I said that people would get both. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Tristram Shandy all three of those already exist, wise guy...
@@tannerwellsteed502 Gee, who would have guessed? Probably just as fraudulent as this bazaar story.
Testimonies do not count as evidence, evidence is something tangible in my opinion. The book of Abraham was NOT a translation, so now I doubt the translation of the B of M.
Guys, if anyone ever tries to make you doubt the veracity of the plates….
Turn it off,
like a light switch
Just go click!
Regarding your argument at about the 4minute mark: there is no credible evidence that the original gold plates ever existed.
The author, Joseph Smith said his Book of Mormon was the "most correct book on earth", some of his family and friends were convinced as well, and signed up as witness for him.
He also said he'd done more than Jesus Christ and his Apostles ever did, ( History of the church, Vol 6 pgs. 408-409),
He was arrested and died in a shootout, gun in hand at Carthage jail, killing a man or two.
Thanks, but I'll stick with the Bible and follow Christ and his teachings.
Kind regards to all, especially Mormon folk.
He truly sounds like the sort of man you can trust with your life and eternal future.! :-)
The scripture says, "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it." Doctrine and Covenants 153:3. Also Joseph Smith only fired his weapon but never hit anyone at carthage jail. You conveniently and deceptively left out and twisted key words and truths in order to push your false agenda. Here are two scriptures Malachi 4:1 and 2 Nephi 29.
That is why we left mormon church. After 35year of being member, finally we opend our eyes and read only holy bible. As the bible said dont add or less any teachings in th holy bible
@@42N8_1 " Joseph Smith only fired his weapon but never hit anyone at carthage jail.'
So, he wasn't a "martyr" then, was he. Martyrs willingly go to their deaths and do not fight back
@@yohanlisting9387 You realize it says that in Deuteronomy too? Just saying.
Joseph isn't the Author. Ancient prophets of the house of Israel who followed God's teachings were. Joseph Smith translated it. If you believe he wrote it then you must believe he is one of the greatest, most gifted authors of all time. 65 working days, no drafts, dictated to scribes without rewrites and picking up where he left off without having anything read back to him, with some of the most profound doctrines and sermons of religion? Most impressive.
And this holy book I am reading now. This book testifies the Bible that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ are real. And that’s my testimony. I am Filipina from🇵🇭
It’s a blessing for me to get a chance to read this book.
Jesus Christ is real. This Mormonism is a fake cult. It was sad to see these people in Philippines trying to convert Filipinos when I was there.
I was a mormon for 20 years. I believed it because it felt right and I liked the people and stories.
Bit when I found out that Joseph smith said that angels commanded him to marry 14 year old children, and said God will destroy his first wife Emma if she was against it I knew it was a lie.
But I still love the LDS people individually. You just shouldn't give them your money
You need to be wary of implying (mostly visually) that the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica. The church has never stated officially where the narrative occurred and there is some serious disagreement between various LDS groups. It would be better not to get caught up in any of the bickering about this issue. It doesn't really matter where it occurred because the book is true. Good work and keep it up.
Including the part where being black is a curse?
Just a comment, the Book of Mormon is around 500 pages, so, each page of 8.5x11 takes about 1.5 cubes of 1x1x1 in of gold, that cube is .7 lb. so the book takes 750 cubes of gold that is equivalent to 525lb aprox. So handed by hand? Interesting
The video actually specifically addresses this. It mentions Tumbaga, and GOLDEN ALLOY found in Mesoamerica. With this golden alloy, it would have weighed 60 pounds.
ua-cam.com/video/Gg0wbY6czNU/v-deo.html
Yeah, even tho Moron1 wrote the record on TuDumba, he had to lie to Joe and say it was written on gold. Angels often lie to prophets just to fuck with them.
@@morondefender84 Hey, now... it's credible... Joseph kept all of the extra leaves of Tumbaga right next to the Vibranium and Adamantium.
Moron Defender, Gold is also a color
@@devonblake731 Hahahahaha True!
The notion that they were tin doesn't take into account the actual text of the Book of Mormon, which contained numerous Hebraisms, prophecies, references to cities and geographical references. Also, many who saw and hefted the plates were able to feel them through the cloth sack, or pillowcase he kept them in.
As the video explains, there were many who saw and felt the plates. Then there was Mary Whitmer, who was shown the plates by a kindly, elderly man. She had been upset at Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery because they were occupied with the translation and she felt they should be helping out with the chores. The man who showed her the plates explained to her the importance of the work they were engaged in, and afterwards, she no longer was put out by their work of translation.
Not only are there so many witnesses, there were many who had visions and revelations independent of Joseph Smith. Orson Hyde, for example, had a vision that lasted nearly six hours. He saw the chores and other places he would subsequently visit, including Jerusalem and Constantinople. And Parley P. Pratt received many revelations as to where he should visit. This way he visited many places where he baptized entire congregations.
There were many other people who had marvelous experiences that were unprecedented. Never since ancient times have so many people had so many such experiences.
I've never found any place or time where there were so many witnesses, and not one person ever later said that they either fabricated or had received a false revelation or a false witness of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon or any of the revelations Smith had. Again, it's unprecedented. There have been many false prophets in the past, but do you know of any who had so many witnesses? The answer is none. Zip, nada, zero. And Muhammad and Ellen G. White, two well known claimants as prophets, never had a single witness, other than themselves, of their divine calling. If Smith was a false prophet, he would be the first one in the history of the planet with multitudes of witnesses. No other prophet since Jesus Christ and Moses had so many witnesses of their divine calling.
He was a true prophet of God.
Mormons say that He was a prophet, but he does not satisfy what the requirements of what a prophet is!
So to clarify. A dozen or so people saying they saw this is enough evidence to believe that God himself gave gold plates from heaven to a person? No
The testimony of the 3 is that they saw an angel. The testimony of the 8 and others is that they saw and handled the plates themselves. Each person has to read and study them for themselves and ask God with real intent and a sincere heart and are promised that they will know the truth of the Book of Mormon teachings by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is the promise at the end of the book.
@@joeshawcroft7121 All of that was total nonsense. None of that addressed the concern of trusting people saying they saw something.
What I always found interesting was Joseph Smith learned he needed 3 witnesses for the gold plates while translating the gold plates with Oliver Cowdery. The requirement for 3 witnesses was written on the gold plates. Logically you would assume Joseph Smith would gather up 2 more people to join Oliver Cowdery. They would all go to Joseph Smith's house and he would lift the cloth that was covering the actual plates. That's what real witnesses would do. But no. He takes them all into the woods to see a vision of the gold plates? And the story of what happened in the woods is basically The Emperors New Clothes, only without the kid.
So Martin Harris held a box that supposedly contained the plates and he said it felt like eaither lead or gold was in the box? Why not bricks? Joseph could have put anything heavy in that box.
Contrast the plates with the egyptian papyri. Joseph Smith proudly displayed the papyri to anyone who wanted to see it, for a fee of course. The obvious difference is he actually had authentic, egyptian papyri.
The Bible says 2 or 3 witnesses. Martin Harris was the mark that need convincing so he would pay for the publication. Oliver and Martin would be 2 witnesses but not if Martin backs out or was not fooled. Whitmer was brought in so even if Harris backed out, there would still be 2 witnesses. Martin Harris did actually back out that day and did not see the plates with the other two witnesses. Joseph had to go find him and convince him he saw the vision as well.
@@redfightblue The whole story about having to go out into the woods and pray and have the angel show them the plates is silly on its face. If Joseph had the plates in his house, why didn't he just show them to the guys there? Furthermore, why didn't he show them to scholars, to prove that they were ancient? The whole story is obviously the same kind of deception Joseph used in his treasure-digging days.
The witness of an angel and the plates is more profound than the plates alone as seen by the eight witnesses. Whitmer's various recounting of the event is particularly astounding.
@@joseph732 Now, if there was only some actual physical evidence to support the Book of Mormon story, Whitmer's account might be believable.
@@randyjordan5521 The Book of Mormon itself is pretty profound evidence that supernatural forces were at play. Hard to believe that such a complex book accepted by millions could have been fabricated by a virtual illiterate 23 year old.
Very helpful and informative! Thank you!
What do you think of the bible when it says beside Yahweh there is no god
Mormons has too many Ms
Joseph Smith said that the moon was inhabited by people six feet tall who dressed like Quakers and lived to be 1,000 years old (Source: Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, a devout Mormon contemporary of Joseph Smith; copy at Utah State Historical Society, Vol. 2, p. 166). Smith said the "gulf stream" resulted from the city of Enoch being taken out from the place where the Gulf of Mexico is. LOL He was a convicted Con Man, people. Mormonism and Scientology are the two religions I believe I could literally swear to you are total and complete BS
@@bobbybower9405 Yahweh (God of the old testament) was referring to Jesus Christ, our one and only savoir. He also had a father (God), and the Holy Ghost confirms that.
Here is a list of questions that an honest seeker of truth might raise:
• Is there a single reference-just one-in Joseph’s journals or written correspondence suggesting he might have read or had conversations concerning any of these historical sources before translating the Book of Mormon?
• Is there any evidence he visited the libraries where these books were supposedly located? No.
• Did Emma Smith, who was married to him, ever comment that he referred to any of these books before the Book of Mormon was translated?
• Is there any record that he had any of these books present when he translated the Book of Mormon?
Do the critics expect us to believe that Joseph searched out and studied all these resources on Native American life; inhaled the related conversations on the topic; winnowed out the irrelevant; organized the remainder into an intricate story involving hundreds of characters, numerous locations, and detailed war strategies; and then dictated it with perfect recollection, without any notes whatsoever-no outline, no three-by-five cards, nothing-a fact acknowledged even among the critics?30 And during it all, no one remembered him going to these libraries, bringing any such books home, having any conversations concerning this research, or making any diary entries to the same. Where, I ask you, is the hard evidence?
The Book of Mormon is the SINGLE greatest evidence of the existence of the plates. As far as many Bible readers are concerned, they have never seen the papyrus that they used to translate the Bible, but folks have no problem accepting the Bible on its own merits. The Latter-day Saints feel the same way. I certainly do. I believe the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and the Holy Ghost has testified that they are true and reliable witnesses of Christ and his gospel.
That is an awesome insight. Thank you for sharing!
What did Martin Harris think of James Strang's holy plates, pray tell? If his testimony is valid for Joseph it's valid for James
His testimony with regard to Strang is not that he saw an angel confirming witness.
Thank you, this was timely and gives me a lot to ponder about.
Liked, subbed
Let’s just say, for the sake of conversation, that he did have gold plates that he could somehow translate. Doesn’t change the fact that the content of the material is false. It teaches a polytheistic religion. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are monotheistic. Mormonism, a new religion, is polytheistic.
I would think Moroni would know what the plates were made of. He said they were made of pure gold. Mosiah 8:9:” and for a testimony, that the things that they had said are true, they have brought 24 plates, which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.”
Whether the plates existed or not is a moot point because there were no plates used in the supposed 'translation' of the Book of Mormon. Eyewitness accounts by several of his scribes, such as his wife Emma, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer, say that there were no plates used in the supposed translation. Instead, they recount that the method of 'translating' was by placing a rock (found at the bottom of a well, NOT found in the supposed stone box hid up by "Moroni"), into his hat, burying his face in the hat, and then dictating to his current scribe. Emma's account states: "In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us." Martin Harris "said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone... By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin.." David Whitmer's account: "I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe....He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation...". Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, gave a first-hand account: "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes - Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
Three of the witnesses later testified that they only saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes", not their natural eyes. Here's a question: If the plates were actual, physical plates, which were hidden from view inside the house, why did the men have to go into the woods and pray to see them? Why not just uncover the plates while everyone was in the house? An enlightening video on UA-cam titled, "Witnesses to the Golden Plates" gives a brief overview of the witnesses and their belief in "Second Sight" by which they believed they had seen actual plates. A thorough article presenting both sides of the question can be read at www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm.
"Three of the witnesses later testified that they only saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes", not their natural eyes.'
You are mistaken. Give us the credible source and exact quote.
"why did the men have to go into the woods and pray to see them? "
Why did Christ appear only to his disciples after the resurrection in the room? Why not go to Caesar, the Rabbis, etc Why not go to the temple whee everyone could see Him
"second sight"
The eight witnesses gave testimony ==== **we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon** all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, **for we have seen and hefted**
John H. Gilbert:
Martin was in the office when I finished setting up the testimony of the three witnesses,-(Harris-Cowdery and Whitmer-) I said to him,-"Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" Martin looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, "No, I saw them with a spir[i]tual eye."[2]
Pomeroy Tucker in his book Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism (1867) also refers to Harris using the phrase "spiritual eye":
How to reconcile the act of Harris in signing his name to such a statement, in view of the character of honesty which had always been conceded to him, could never be easily explained. In reply to uncharitable suggestions of his neighbors, he used to practise a good deal of his characteristic jargon about "seeing with the spiritual eye," and the like. [3]
The quote in question is from a letter from Stephen Burnett to "Br. Johnson" on 15 April 1838:
when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundation was sapped & the entire superstructure fell in heap of ruins, I therefore three week since in the Stone Chapel...renounced the Book of Mormon...after we were done speaking M Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city throught [sic] a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of---[him/me?] but should have let it passed as it was..
Here are a couple quotes you might find interesting
1. Stephen Burnett is repeating a story which he alone is a witness and is contradicited by every statement by Harris .In the very same year that he left the church.
I find it interesting that you can give it any credibility. If Harris had indeed made such a statement IN PUBLIC, there should be many witnesses to such an "amazing" story. but NADA, NOTHING, NOBODY ELSE MENTIONS IT
In this public meeting of members of the church he stands alone.
2. Gilbert's account was given many years afterward but pretends to give the entire conversation word of word. We can only guess the exact words that Harris said, but I agree he probably did use the phrase "spiritual eyes".
3. You missed these accounts
"Well, just as plain as you see that chopping block, I saw the plates; and sooner than I would deny it I would lay my head upon that chopping block and let you chop it off.[1]
George Mantle recalls what Martin Harris said while he was in Birmingham on a mission for the Strangites. This was well after Martin had left the Church:
When we came out of the meeting Martin Harris was beset with a crowd in the street, expecting that he would furnish them with material to war against Mormonism; but when he was asked if Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, he answered yes; and when asked if the Book of Mormon was true, this was his answer: 'Do you know that is the sun shining on us? Because as sure as you know that, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that he translated that book by the power of God.'[1]
"Do you know that is the sun shining on us? Because as sure as you know that, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that he translated that book by the power of God."
Where in this statement did he say he saw the plates? NO one is questioning that he believed in it just weather he saw them or not.
Actually they all testified of the physical plates, just as the video stated. Whether they were used directly is a different topic. Joseph translated through inspiration, not through character to character comparison like a scientist. Besides, Joseph even said he directly translated the title page, and Martin Harris said they copied directly some of the characters. To claim there were no plates goes against witness statements and evidences. Here's a good video.
ua-cam.com/video/xbXkQ6TvdzM/v-deo.html
..if they saw the plates,and this testiomy is soo important..then explain why the plates WERE NOT EVEN USED IN WRITING THE BOM!!
kymopar
Book of Mormon Central answered that question here.
ua-cam.com/video/xbXkQ6TvdzM/v-deo.html
this answer is beyond STUPID!..just so you know who you are dealing with..i served a mission..served in the elders q. was high p. group leader..and 2nd col in bishopric..i have forgot more about the church than most people know.,.
@@kymopar why did you leave
@@johnlewis6526 because the church is a sick joke..
@@zandersturgill i just watched the video..please tell me you are kidding..
If the plates were real, then God would allow for every one to see, not to wonder if they did exist. God said to trust no man. Trust in Jesus. You can't go wrong.
So, you know the mid of God then? I'm surprised you haven't come up with the Book if Richard.
If Mormons love and believe the Bible, why is the Book of Mormon so important to them?
Great video. Thank you for producing it. I’ve read it many times and know it to be the word of god.
What's the issue God has with evidence?
It's not the Word of God
How about how much the "golden plates" would have weighed, given the dimensions provided by Joseph Smith, Jr. (7in x 8in x 4in)? Solid gold weighs 11.06oz per cubic inch, which means that the "golden plates" would have weighed 155lbs. That means that 16yr old Joseph Smith, Jr. dug them up and hoisted them up from out of a hole below ground with no help and no special tools. He then ran about 3mi while carrying these 155lbs golden plates without stopping, save to encounter three separate aggressors, only to fight off each one, single-handedly, suffering no defeat. This is all highly improbable.
@@WatchList-xf8ic I agree with you 💯
Witnesses also said a Bible wasn't present while translation and we all know that was a lie.
What do you mean about bible being present?
@@floatingtigerscarriff6664 the witnesses said no Bible was present while translating, that was said because so much of the King James Version was in the BofM, but there were errors copied into BofM… for example,
‘The word “dragon[s]” is mentioned in the Book of Mormon three times. The first is in 2 Nephi 23:22, but is taken from Isaiah, which record the Nephites obtained from the Brass Plates before they left Jerusalem (1 Nephi 5). In fact, the word “dragon” or “dragons” was used in the Old Testament numerous times. This beast is sometimes referred to as living in the sea or fresh water with grass, reeds, and rushes.’
This is copied from an LDS apologist website but after finding the Rosetta Stone etc they found ‘Dragon’ was a misinterpretation, the correct word was hyena or jackal. But Joseph just copied right from the Bible and there is no way to refute it so there WAS a Bible present and Joseph DID copy it rendering the witnesses accountability shot to hell.
Problem with the whole story is, you have to believe in the existence of "angels", and you have to believe that they manifest themselves to mortals. Rational people doe not believe either of those things.
I think you are confusing belief with knowledge. Belief inherently requires faith in something that is not seen or directly known. If we are talking about intellectual knowledge though, there is way more evidence to the veracity of these claims than there is to the contrary. The Book of Mormon is a book that cannot be explained away in any rational way that holds up. "Joseph Plagiarized it", this has been disproven by detailed scientific analysis multiple times. "Joseph just made it up", absolutely impossible for an uneducated farm boy to dictate in around 65 days a document (from memory) as complex and intricate, with as many historical details, consistent geographies, complex hebraic structures, etc. "somebody else wrote it", there has been no credible evidence to support this. Around 20 individuals say they not only saw the plates but many of them touched them, held them, looked at the characters. So how did the Book of Mormon get here? The answer is through the power of God. Through the ministration of angels. Belief requires faith and there are over 17 million people on this planet (many of them academics, PhDs, scientists, etc.) that are very rational people, and believe that these things are true.
@@Bookofmormoncentralofficial People "believe that these things are true" because they so desperately WANT them to be true! The LDS church lays out such a wonderful "plan of salvation" and immortality that many people find it too appealing to resist.
We need it in it's original language. ls it also lost?
According to your logic, every conspiracy theory ever is true, because a hand full of people believe it.
Ganesh God - NO.. not that they believe it... but that they testified of what they saw... independent of all the others.
@@MrNirom1 If they "testified of what they saw" then they clearly believe it. My point is anyone can say they saw ghosts with metal books in a forest but most people would think they are retarded i.e me. The reason this religion exists is stupid. Thanks for wasting 4 minutes of day
Is it true that Joseph Smith's father made those thin metal bands used to hold wooden barrels together? The ability to make thin metal barrel bands isn't too far from being able to create thin metal rectangular pages bound by three rings. My thought is that as long as you keep the created plates in a cloth sack or covered by some sort of cloth you could let people handle them thru the cloth. The fact that some said they saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes" tells me that there was a reason they couldn't just look at them freely, handle them freely, inspect them carefully. And if they were actually silver in color like the metal found encircling wooden barrels, it would seem to me that if you waited till night time and allowed some to see the plates uncovered, the low color temperature of a torch or light from flame could cast an orange color.
If the gold plates never existed, how did Joseph get numerous witnesses to stand by their stories until their dying day, even when some of them later became angry with Joseph and left the Church?
How could Joseph have known about ancient cement technology in the first century B.C. in Mesoamerica?
How could Joseph Smith make up dozens of names in the Book of Mormon that would later be shown to be authentic ancient Semitic names?
Where did Joseph Smith get the idea of ancient scriptures written on metal plates?
How did Joseph Smith know about ancient practices regarding preservations of sacred texts?
Why do other ancient documents support the Book of Mormon's idea that the ancient Joseph prophesied of Moses and Aaron?
If there was no apostasy in the Church of Jesus Christ, then what happened to prophets?
If Joseph Smith just made up the idea of vicarious baptism for the dead, why do numerous ancient documents validate the LDS claim that this was an authentic early Christian practice?
At a time when all Christian churches taught that temples were no longer needed, how did Joseph so effectively restore the ancient temple concept on his own?
What other church better corresponds with early Christianity in terms of teaching the true relationship between faith, grace, and works?
Why do the earliest Christian writings sound much closer to LDS theology than they to modern "mainstream" Christianity?
If it's unchristian, unbiblical, and evil to believe that humans have divine potential, why do many Biblical and early Christian sources speak of the humans becoming "gods"?
If the Bible is infallible, by whose authority were the various books of the Bible selected in an infallible manner? By whose authority were the infallible translations made and approved?
Who authorized the changes in the ritual of baptism that occurred since the New Testament Church? And who in your church has true authority from God to perform baptisms?
If the Book of Abraham is a fraud, then how do you account for the details in the text that would later be given extensive support by numerous ancient documents that were not available to Joseph Smith?
@@lootingiv4058 Regarding your first point, I suspect witnesses only saw plates with their “spiritual eyes” in a vision. Martin Harris even said so. And for some reason, the witnesses had to be taken out into the woods to see the plates. Translation had already begun so I didn’t. Smith just show them the plates right then and there. I sense great deception there of Penn &Teller quality. And they probably all felt there was something mystical about Joseph Smith. And maybe had fear of what spirits and demons could visit them if they were to go against Smith. So wouldn’t go against the document that they signed saying they saw plates. A document that Joseph Smith wrote up and they just applied their signature to. How many agreements on the Internet have we all said we’d ead as we click “I’ve read this agreement” button. I’m going to try my best to give a response to each of your very general points. I believe there’s a reason for keeping them general because as you get into the details with each one you can see them unravel.
@@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist ok but the thing is that 2 of the witnesses happened at the same time but the other one was seperate so he would have had to create the illusion twice which isnt very possible. im not going to debate with you anymore for this reason:
evidence of anti-mormon always comes up. but then in later years those things get solved and answered and then anti mormons just come up with more reasons on why its false. no matter how much evidence there is towards it people are going to fail to believe it. an angel could come down and tell you its true but you would put it off as an illusion or a dream and it didnt actually happen. its up the the person the believe of its truthfullness no matter how much evidence there is for or against it. no matter what happens you are hard in your heart so you will not appreciate it. the bible supports the book of mormon and the book of mormon supports the bible period. you can go on about anything you want but i will not even read or respond to anything else you say because you simply dont want to believe its true so you wont. you cant believe in something that you dont want to so have a nice day and i hope the spirit will find a way into your heart.
Ephesians 4:18:
having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness in their heart
Have a nice day
@@lootingiv4058 Galatians 1:8. All that really needs be said on this issue.
@@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist bruh 🤣 who was being spoken to in that verse??? The GALATIANS. They had been converted from paganism and jewism. He was telling them not to return to that even if an "angel" told them too. for sure got nothing to prove against the Book of Mormon since literally every "come back" you have had i have demolished and you still never answered my questions lol. im blocking you now because i know i said i wouldnt respond but its just too dang funny watching people try to discredit the church and then not think about it logically. have a nice day
Why doesn’t he tell us what Cowdrey did during the ten years he was out of the church ?
When it comes to god nothing is convenient because working by faith and growing it is not a convenient process. Stretching your patience to its limit so you can have and acquire the gift of greater patience is not convenient. Waiting and watching to see that which the world says has never been seen nor can be seen nor ever will be seen and then as you begin to see you get to be told by the same that you didn’t see anything. Not a path of convenience
Wow guys. 8 witnesses.... That's so much evidence I'm convinced.
Especially when you realize they were all family and friends of Joseph Smith, and several of them later turned on Joseph Smith and either left or were kicked out of his church. Hard to resist that kind of powerful witness testimony. Lol
How do you figure the witnesses had nothing to loose and everything to gain by recanting their testimony? I would think they'd lose all credibility with friends and family not to mention get a major a$$ kicking from folks who believed and invested their hears and funds and certainly sacrificed some close relationships to become part of the church. On the contrary they may not have had anything to gain by maintaining their testimony but ßurely had much to lose by recanting.
Interesting take, However - think about how much pressure (coming from outsiders or haters) once some of these witnesses left the church to recant (or disavow) them. However maybe a "higher" force kept them (witnesses) in fear of being honest (for the sake of their own honor, truth, and salvation). Anyway food for thought :)
@@nute742 cult
@@BeardedDragonMan1997 maybe that's a good thing actually LOL
When Jesus was here many thought that was a cult. A famous scripture says many are misled and few find the way. Many parts of Christianity today and other religions have billions of members so maybe that would make the few(like in the time of christ) in Good company! Anyway food for thought.
@@nute742 So they would bow to pressure from strangers over their instinct for self-preservation of their relationships with family and friends, and keeping their reputations intact? Not a strong argument.
@@ChaChaDancin No, actually I think you might've been confused what was mentioned. I said "regardless" of outside pressures (or inside pressures) the (witnesses) stuck to their testimonies (despite any relationship problems or earthly consequences, etc). Because they "valued" the truth and their relationship with God (and what they saw) vs what everyone else would think or do. Jesus himself taught to be true disciples we need to be willing to leave it all behind (even family (friends, money - which can be tough no doubt) and follow up (bearing up ones cross) to be deemed worthy. That's what these brothers did. (So in that sense it was the best strategy they could do and they will be rewarded for that, despite not being perfect as we all are). Question is what is our best strategy (what do we need to give up or are willing to follow him)? Okay god bless and peace out :)
How about how much the "golden plates" would have weighed, given the dimensions provided by Joseph Smith, Jr. (7in x 8in x 4in)? Solid gold weighs 11.06oz per cubic inch, which means that the "golden plates" would have weighed 155lbs. That means that 16yr old Joseph Smith, Jr. dug them up and hoisted them up from out of a hole below ground with no help and no special tools. He then ran about 3mi while carrying these 155lbs golden plates without stopping, save to encounter three separate aggressors, only to fight off each one, single-handedly, suffering no defeat. This is all highly improbable.
Well, Jesus did say there would be false prophets in the last days.
so who else is here cause telltale roasted this video?
Strange how most of the witnesses seem to be related.
@Dominus Illuminatio Mea I am so glad I know My Father because people like you who jump on a public platform and call someone you don't even know ignorant is cowardly. Lot of keyboard thugs. I am a child of The Most High thank you. I'll pray for you.
Let's see the plates
They're leaving the church doesn't support it NOT being a scam? If they saw an Angel deliver plates from God, why would you dare to leave that religion?
Could the plates been made of brass? It can look golden...
Yes
Their is a metal called tambuga
Joseph said they had the appearance of gold. They were actually made with a gold and brass or bronze mixture. It's what kept them from corroding.if they were made of brass only they would have corroded long ago I think
It wouldn’t have the density tho
I doubt the gold plates existed but if they did it was fake. People had an interest to lie about it. Mormonism is heretical
Yes.. our evidence is unquestionable, three! Count them! Three, separate witnesses.. cognitive dissonance at its finest.
11 total witnesses who gave their testimony in the intro pages of the book. Those are testimonies to the world. A few others saw them who gave personal testimony.
Why would God hide the plates in the first place. He does nothing in secret. If the plates would increase peoples faith, why take them away?
🤣😂😃🤣😂😃😆
I'm laughing at the Gold plates story.
Joseph Smith was a treasure hunter and said that the writing was in " reformed Egyption. " " Mark Twain called him out as a phony there is no credibility to this bogus story.
Awesome. Thank you for posting this.
The eight wittnesses were the Smiths and Whitmers Why not a Doctor or Lawyer
Or Martin Harris wife ? Now that would be a witness !
Cuz they are not worthy to see it....try imagining what would happen if that would be the case isnt that a little of not Gods way of dealing his things?
Why would God always make prophets as a witness why not Kings just to ensure that the people would believe that those things are true?
Oliver Cowdery was a respected Lawyer. David Whitmer was a mayor and city councilman. Martin Harris a prosperous land-owner.
Btw Martin Harris' wife was shown the plates in a dream.
Joseph smith chose the most weak people on this,so he can fear them with god's anger in order to do his work easily .
Jesus Christ said come follow me, He didn't say come follow Joseph Smith!! And in Matthew Jesus clearly says there are NO marriage's in Heaven!! Read the Bible.
Find ANY iron artifacts? How about any coins of gold or silver? Steel mill remains? Any ancient chariots in North America or South America? Any silk ever show up in any archeological digs? Didn't think so. You won't either.
JAMES WALTERMATH YES METAL SWORDS ,HELMETS AND OTHER OBEJECTS INCLUDING STEEL HAS BEEN FOUND. YES MODELS OF CHARIOTS HAVE BEEN FOUND AND THE STONE ROADS THEY COULD HAVE TRAVELED ON. YES THE NATIVE AMERICANS USED A FORM OF SILK. BEST STUDY UP PAL
well JS found Gold plates and you cant seem to accept that so if I was to find a gold coin that's going to be the proof you need? what a simpleton.
@@henochparks facts 100% yet they wont look into this its to shaking for their born again faith.