Book of Mormon as Literature
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- Опубліковано 21 січ 2022
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Timeline of the Pre-Columbian Americas:
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Who Wrote the Bible?
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Video Credits:
Narration/Charts: Matt Baker usefulcharts.com/
Animation: Syawish Rehman / @almuqaddimahyt
Audio Editing: Jack Rackam / @jackrackam
Intro music: "Lord of the Land" by Kevin MacLeod and licensed under Creative Commons Attribution license 4.0. incompetech.com
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With all your religious education do you think you could write a book like the Book of Mormon?
Where is the ancient manuscripts to support the book of Mormon?
I’m begging you man, a usefulcharts video on the different off shoots of Christianity would be amazingggggggggggg, every single one of your videos are incredible and whenever I show them to any of my friends in the faith (Jews, Christian’s, and Muslims), they’re alway blown away by the level of detail and accuracy and I feel like there’s no UA-camr who could do the Christian’s schisms as much Justice to the topic as you would. Love your work man!
I've actually already started working on it!
@@UsefulCharts you’re awesome! I’m excited as hell to see it
@@endeverafter2 Excited as *heaven*
@@UsefulCharts Oh this will be AWESOME
@@UsefulCharts I can hardly wait
As someone with no connection to Mormonism and only experienced it through television, thank you for breaking it down from a secular point of view. I always appreciate how respectful you are of all of these faith-based theories and discussions.
He may be respectful and the first part is pretty accurate but when he actually talks about the Book of Mormon and how it came about, he has a lot of things very wrong.
Yeah he did his best but there are some implications he makes here that are less accurate. You should read the Book of Mormon to truly grasp it.
Being a Malaysian 🇲🇾, I spat out my drink when I heard Malaysia as a setting for the book of Mormon. I never knew about it until now. Great and informative video!
There are over 100 models for Book of Mormon Geography. The only one that makes sense is where it actually happened--ancient America.
Bhahahaha 😂
@@brucelloyd7496 Well, I'll concede that it makes more sense than scientology.
Obligatory "Diorang dah lama rancang bro, kita je yang lalai" comment
@@brucelloyd7496 why doesn't any book of the bible mention it? Only the book of Mormon. Its very different from the bible.
I read the Book of Mormon maybe ten or so times growing up, spent hours of private study time and went to classes dedicated to studying every chapter and verse for hidden divine wisdom (not at all a unique experience in the LDS Church). The discussion here about how its contents could be explained from a secular perspective were things that I came across from time to time online, but they always seemed forbidden and transgressive. I was a little scared and worried that someone nefarious was trying to trick me.
In my questioning and worrying I could have been well served by a video like this delivered clearly and neutrally from a third party coming from a place of pure academic curiosity. Seeing something like this now feels like a nostalgic bit of closure now that I've spent most of my adult life outside the church, and (much like you mentioned) I can now look back with a little more appreciation of how such a strange and unique piece of 19th century American literature happened to play such a large role in my life.
Great video as always!
Is it not ironic...that the people you thought were trying to trick you...weren't? And it turned out...the people who actually tricked you...were the people making you feel as if someone else...was trying to trick you. Irony...at its best.
Well, you did get tricked. But by someone with sore hands
@@baberoot1998 Tbh, I don't think it's entirely fair to say they were trying to trick OP. Many members grew up in the church, and so belief in the Book of Mormon is often a cornerstone of their sense of self and belonging. Teaching it to others is probably the most logical thing to do for them
It is sad to think someone would say this is not biased. Is that the state of our education?
It may have a non-biased tone. All suggestions made are one-sided at best and cherry-picked at worst.
I guess this guy says he is a theist. So he isn’t actually analyzing literature or any other evidence. There are nearly 100 words in the Book of Mormon that can clearly be traced to ancient languages. These were words not in any Bible or Hebrew text at the time. I don’t think Joseph Smith could have “guessed” so many correctly. Furthermore there are the Chiasmus. They were not widely known about at the time. There are other hebraisms that are not in the King James Bible (ie the use of thieves vs robbers) the KJV translators use interchangeably but are clearly different Hebrew concepts. This is known now that Hebrew is actually well studied.
I could go on. Why does the Book of Mormon say Moses disappeared when the Bible at the time didn’t? It was pretty bold for Joseph Smith to contradict the Bible. Since then accounts have come forward indeed suggesting Moses was translated.
Cleary there is strong evidence there was multiple ancient influences in the Book of Mormon. Influences not present at the time it was published. I could go on.
This video does a decent job at parroting old tropes and pretends to throw in an occasional positive comment. It is not cerebral or intellectual. It is tired and boring and designed to flatter and calm both the listener and the producer. What did modern population size have to do with anything?
I love how the narrator brought up the Pearl of Great Price (nothing to do with the Book of Mormon) and then failed to bring up the Book of Moses (in the same book) that has pages and pages of stories of Enoch. Stories that have only since been discovered in the Dead Sea scrolls etc. What influenced that? BTW if you are interested in the Book of Abraham see books by Yale Egyptologist John Gee.
One-sided at best. Cherry-picked at worst.
Sincere effort: minimal.
I get it. The Book of Mormon is hard to believe in and yet it “hisses” forth; forcing the people to accept or reject it. I don’t think that is a reason to be biased.
Also, I agree with your comment that most Latter-day Saints treat information like this as “taboo”. I would say most Latter-day Saints are fairly biased as well. As you pointed out, that aspect of Latter-day Saint culture it is not helpful or healthy. Let’s not pretend this video is close to impartial. Again that would not be helpful or healthy.
Chiasmus, like those found in Dr Seuss? Look at the cherry-picker calling the kettle black
Really would love something like this on the Indian epics , Vedas , the Buddhism sutras, The avesta etc if you choose to continue this. Much love!
i second that!
I would absolutely love to see a presentation on the many Indian texts, especially the Vedas, but I understand that they're a *very* broad topic that may be too much to broach in videos like these
he did one on the Mahabarata, I think
So I guess the story of Jewish expats in the Americas wasn’t enough of an “Indian epic” for you, huh? 😂
I would also love a video on Iranian and Indian religions
Matt, another job well done! I'm a Jewish college student studying history, and your channel has influenced my love of the subject for years now. Another interesting topic could be the Baha'i Faith, I'd love to learn more about them!
Definitely one of my favorites (I know some really good people who are bahai) that I know virtually nothing about
I've heard of that religion many times.. probably read the Urantia book as well.
Baha’i is what happened when you imagine the Mormons happening in Persia.
As an ex shia persian from the city where baha'ism began I tell you:
It's WAY more f'ed up than Islam and mormonism combined.
This is generally very good, but the section about early Mormon history felt a bit rough. Identifying Sidney Rigdon as a "helper" who could have helped create the Book of Mormon is something of a trope but untenable historically: Sidney Rigdon didn't meet Joseph Smith until December 1830, after the publication of the Book of Mormon.
He was probably talking about Martin Harris. Harris was the one who lost the pages
@@majenharden I think it is that there are a few eye witnesses that put rigdon in New York with smith before the attested first meeting. These are circumstantial at best but not out of the realm of possibility
@@majenharden No, the Smith-Rigdon theory is one parroted quite frequently, and relies on conspiracy.
Most of these conspiracy theories rely on the assumption that the Book of Mormon is anything to be impressed by. It's an extremely unimpressive book that someone with a middle school education and an overactive imagination could have easily winged out.
@@mathewfinchhave you personally read it? It seems like it would be pretty obvious if that were the case, and there wouldn't be an entire religion built around it...?
Very well done! I am a person who was raised Mormon, was very devout into my twenties, and still has close friends and family who are Mormon.
My own change in beliefs corresponded with a deep dive into Mormon history that lasted years. It is quite impressive how you condense a fairly comprehensive overview into such a brief video, and it miraculously still manages to make sense!
I also love your videos on the authorship of the Bible (another of my personal favorite areas of study). I highly recommend that series!
Many are called, few are chosen.
Many think they are chosen, but few take seriously the call to "love their neighbor as themselves"
I learned a lot from your Q'uran video, have to admit that as a practicing LDS Christian I was a little nervous about your announcement that you would be making this video, but I figured that if you were as respectful about it as you were in the Q'uran video I'd give it a go. Thankfully you did not disappoint!
LDS aren't considered Christians since they teach heretical doctrines.
Only themselves think of themselves as Christian
@Bryce Calabaza We believe that Jesus is God like other Christians which is the definition of Christianity. Like mentioned in the video we are just not Nicene Christians. That like saying early Christians are not Christians and therefore are heretical.
Qur"'"an
@@abdal-adl2540 Thank you for correcting me
@Bryce Calabaza You may no longer be an LDS Christian in name, but you still have the same arrogant belief that you have all the truth. That's something I've grown to really dislike about us.
This was fantastic!! I dedicated the first 25yrs of my life to this religion and this was a beautiful overview. I wish this overview existed when I was a kid.
It did, it was just harder to find before the internet.
As an ex-Mormon, did he leave out important books? I thought Pearl of Great Price was another requirement? Married a Mormon, so I had to learn a few things, but didn't convert.
@@christopherwoods5150 Yeah the Pearl of Great Price and doctrine and covenants are important too. But this video was specifically addressing the Book of Mormon and it's history.
Those are purported to be modern revelation, not a history like the book of mormon.
@@darkwitnesslxx Thank you!
Growing up as a Mormon, or LDS as they prefer to call it, this was both very informative and pretty accurate. Well done.
Still Mormon? How do Mormons react to someone abandoning faith?
@@kekzealot3568 I am. It's different just based on who your parents are. Some continue to love and support their children no matter what. Others will ostracize and exclude from family gatherings.
@@spencer4164 are you still a follower because you have faith or because you are afraid of being ostracized
@@kekzealot3568 I'm an ex-mormon. I've definitely seen a mix of support and shunning. Church leaders often give reasons for why members leave, and they're rarely, if ever, reasons that leave the person who leaves with any dignity. The assumption is usually that the person was lazy, wanted to sin, offended by someone in the church, or deceived by Satan. It's hard for many members to accept that a person left simply because that's where they felt the evidence or even their morals led them.
@@kekzealot3568 no I am not, and believe it or not, most of the members feel sad when a friend or family member leaves their church but the majority of members don’t treat us “Jack Mormons” who have left the church, any differently. There aren’t any rules or even recommendations in the church doctoring instructing members to cut ties with friends or family members who aren’t members anymore, even if their loved ones speak out about the Mormons. But there are people who let it rip their families apart
This contains one of the best short summaries of the structure and basic story of the Book of Mormon that I have ever seen done by an outsider. Excellent work.
As a member of the LDS Church, I found your presentation of the Book of Mormon from a faithful perspective, quite accurate. I also appreciate your historical view of the origins of the Book of Mormon.
@@hanz3967 : unfortunetly this is the first unappropriate comment I found so far on this great channel. I do not see the benefit of offending people randomly.
Honest question Mr Lund; If you today profess as a member of the LDS church, how do you reconcile the reality of what Matt showed us here in his video? Does the reality of the knowledge that circa 589 BC (much less 3000 BC) travel to America ... simply didnt happen in reality ... and the likelihood of 18 century American individuals literally 'coming up with' a religion to suit the times ... you can see where I'm going here.
Your belief is provably false in reality historically, based on 'plates' that likely never existed in the first place, and professed by creators whos primary interest was clearly self aggrandisement? How do you justify being a member of a group that has no clear theological basis beyond literally ... a guy ... writing a book with his head stuck in a hat.
If Matt here was 'accurate', how does that transform into a basis for a belief?
@@hanz3967 hey atheist here, have you not noticed the comments here?
They show a lot of common courtesy, do you not know how to take social cues?
If you don't then learn.
@@hanz3967 - at least in all of those examples, there are also unattached scholastic evidence of Jesus existing, Mohamed existing etc, as well (to the point) as secular evidence of their movements and actions and the groups of people following them.
We also have parallel historical and archaeological facts that back up the environments and worlds they were in. How they related to their world and others in it, are generally in compliance with historical knowledge of the world around them.
With Mormon we have none of that, except as Matt points out an early America tender and ready to believe in ... something ... of a society.
Nothing prior to Smith can be proven historically about America, nothing.
@@hanz3967 I know about what a lot of religious and colonialism did, I am a New Zealand Maori our history with the English is similar but I don't hold it against the new generation but I do want them to learn both sides of history.
If there's one thing I have learnt through history is that no culture is without it's atrocious crimes against a different people group.
So please let me give you one piece of advice look at your own cultures history first, make sure to look at the good and the bad and it will give you a reason to be humble.
I'd love to see you do the history of the American Baptists. I did a report on it a couple decades ago and it was very interesting and I wish I had kept my notes. Better yet, I'd rather have a quick summary from someone as educated as you going through the origins and controversies.
This 100 times ! I'd love to get a timeline of the diversity of American Protestant denomination. There's a lot of interesting history there to break down
mark twain described it's literary value, as follows: "The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle - keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate.”
Mark Twain didn't look into it closely enough. I will grant that its pseudo-King James style is often ponderous and cloying. But Grant Hardy has done a fascinating study of its narratology. The main narrators give their personal stories as well as larger-scale accounts of their society and doctrinal content, and those three components, well, don't always all neatly pull in the same direction. The narration is structured to draw your eye away from the tensions among them, but read it "against the grain" to pick them up, and there's startling human depth, pathos, and irony beneath the faith-promoting surface.
Now, if you go for theology, it's ... not univocal there either. And at one point one of its prophets (Abinadi) just casually blows up a foundational presupposition of centuries of soteriological debate (the fixedness of the Son's nature), which is fun (if you're a turbodork).
And Twain was a humorist, first and foremost. If he couldn't make a joke out of something, it was of no value to him.
I am also going to note that if he is going to compare TBOM to "chloroform in print" he should have mentioned The Book of Ether! This was a totally missed opportunity and shows that Twain was off his form at that particular time!
Well, he did spend a lot of the time face-down in his hat...
Even Joseph Smith doesn't deny that the Book of Mormon was anything short of a miracle. To be able to explain everything about it from an intellectual or secular point of view without a reasonable doubt would disqualify it as being miraculously conceived. Yet Joseph never deviated from the explanation that it was given him to translate by the "power of God." Mister Twain, on the point of a miracle, we don't disagree!
On the point about it being sleepy, like Christ through his prophets have said time and time again, "their ears are dull of hearing" "listening they hear not, and seeing they see not!" "They need to be nursed by milk before they can eat meat".
We are all at varying degrees in our understanding of God and Godly things. But God gifts only those who love him the ability to see things that are largely unseen/unheard by the majority. Many are called, but only few are chosen. To me Joseph Smith was undoubtedly chosen, and like others before him, died a martyr to bring a message of truth to the earth.
Btw Mark Twain, what's so sleepy about learning that Christ is the Savior of the world, and that children who die before the age of accountability, like my baby daughter? It's a book that brings hope to those who are seeking for a hopeful message in a world that is largely unforgiving and cannot offer any consolation except for, 'my daughter is dead and her body is gone, eaten by worms.' End of story. Where's the inspiration in that? Where's the meaning in life?
I'm so glad I found this channel. The video's on religions are particularly good in my opinion. Amazing!!!
As a Mormon myself, this was very well done Matt!! There were even some new things I learned, like the Malaysian theory I personally have always understood that nothing in the Book or Mormon or Bible for that matter should be taken as unequivocal fact, but rather used as a guide. Keep up the great work my friend!!
@@peggymattie5191 have a happy Saturday and a great rest of your weekend!
@@peggymattie5191 Why must bigots like you always target people who believe in different things than you? I am a Christian, but I am gay. Does that make me not a Christian? No! Who are you to judge someone based on what they believe in? Read Matthew 7:1-3. Also, didn't Jesus say "Love thy neighbor as thyself, that is the greatest commandment of all"? We are all human beings, fellow travelers to the grave. Why can't we just let people live their lives the way they want to as long as they aren't hurting you?
@@peggymattie5191 did you… not watch the video? Look at the graphic shown at 3:15. The creator doesn’t say that it’s another testament, just another branch off of the “early Christian” family of beliefs. Also, the commenter that started this thread never said the Book of Mormon is a New Testament. They just presented the idea/belief that these ancient writings shouldn’t be taken as fact, but read for the overarching lessons they can teach us, similar to how we the lessons fictional books can try to convey. Jesus fucking Christ can we have some listening/reading comprehension anymore?
@@RiskyOpinions You are no better than her. Just keep your opinions to yourself. Didn't any of you learn that if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all?
@@RiskyOpinions Well, I guess I'll see you down there. Didn't Jesus say to Love thy neighbor as thyself? It is one of the Ten Commandments after all.
I love your video style, measured and steady and always easy to understand. And the content is always quality! I'll be sharing this with a few friends who are interested in this topic.
As an ex-Jehovah's Witness, I would love to see you cover them and their translations (I hear they've got a new one since I left) of the Bible. They also do not believe in The Trinity and believe all other Abrahamic religions to be misguided. Anyhow, I think it'd be interesting to see an academic breakdown of their history and worked happily answer questions about their beliefs, though I am several years removed nowadays.
Thank you knowing better
@C thanks! Though the lack of birthday parties never bothered me. The main negative was not getting to date as a teen and having to figure everything out in my twenties that everone else already knew.
@@preparation.kaician I hope you're doing fine now.
The Salvation Army would be a good one. Most people think of their charities but rarely do they think of how the church works, its foundations with William Booth and its use of a military structure.
And they don't encourage nor require baptism for membership. 🤷♂️
@@Austin8thGenTexan They also run legal slavery by using homeless and addicts as their workforce , no pay . You work or they make you homeless again
@@Austin8thGenTexan They don't do Communion/Eurcharist either
@@mrmcface713 That's because they have a problem with alcohol, as they have a lot to do with cleaning up the mess it creates in society.
Small typo error at 24:23. The range for "Mormons settle in Utah" shown spanning from 1847 to... 1847
Not sure if this is a big enough deal to warrant a correction but I'm pretty sure you intended a different year there, yes?
Either way, this video is amazing and I'm so glad that people like you do what you do. We are lucky to have Matt Baker!!!
Utah still exists so really any ending date doesnt make sense.
Maybe he meant 1858 b/c that was when Brigham Young was fired as governor of Utah, and the period of theocratic Utah ends.
As a member of the LDS faith, I just want to thank you for your academic and unbiased view. Excellent video.
God created man, man created religion!
God created man to serve Him, man created religion for its followers to serve.
Religious men serve religion more than they serve God.
Jesus wants us to follow Him, not religion.
Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way.
Jesus said Follow Me, not follow me then pick some brand of worldly religion to follow also.
Jesus never followed a religion. In fact Jesus was against the religious people of His day and He even went as far as to call them the children of the devil.
The 12 disciples never followed religion, they only followed Jesus.
So why is it that Mormons and other religious people believe they need to create or join a religion????
People seek after religion because Jesus and the Gospel are no longer enough for them.
As Jesus is no longer enough for them they create a religion to follow.
It is like the people of Moses' day, where the people created a golden calf and worshiped it.
Mormons have set their religion before them like an idol. They worship it and they defend it.
Mormons need their book of Mormon because they believe that the Bible which contains all that Jesus did and taught is not enough for them.
Mormons believe "church" = a religious institution
Christians know "church" = people, followers of Jesus, His sheep.
Mormons are not Christians. They put their religion first and Jesus last.
Mormons are Mormon first and Christians second.
Mormons will always defend their religion because they hold it closer to their heart than they do Jesus and His Gospel.
Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth.
Mormons belong to: The Church Of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Deceived
The Book Of Mormon is The Most Corrected Book Upon The Earth
The Book Of Mormon is Another Deception Of The Anti Christ
The Book Of Mormon is Joseph's Myth
Christians will always attack religion because IT is not of God.
Mormons will always defend their religion because THEY are not of God.
Religious people always need a religion to go through to get to God.
Christians only need Jesus to get to Him and the Father.
Any time that a church tells you that you have to go through them to get to God it is usually a cult.
When Mormons bear testimonies it is more so to convince EACH OTHER that their religion is true than to bear witness or convince non believers.
Mormons spend so much of their time bearing testimonies on the book of mormon being true and their church being true.
Christians already know that the bible is true and we know that anyone who follows Jesus are His true church.
Christians just get on with teaching the gospels and all that is contained within the bible.
Mormons just continue trying to convince everyone that their book of Mormon is true rather than devoting all their time to teaching anything out of it.
Mormons believe they can be married for all eternity.
The bible tells us that there is NO marriage beyond this life.
It also tells us that there is neither male nor female.
Mormons choose to believe fables over the truth which is the Holy Bible.
Jesus leads to salvation.
Joseph leads to damnation.
So Mormons, who will you choose? Jesus or Joseph?
Love your videos. Clear, concise and leading to curiousity and further research for many. Very good.
This is fascinating!! Thanks so much for all that you do 🙏 🤲
Loving this series! Please continue with other holy books as well!
Your channel is just phenomenal. I appreciate you so much. You are always so respectful as you present the full picture and I wish this could be provided to every young person. I bought your book as an effort to support. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and for your thorough, patient research! 😅
I'm Braziliam. From the very little I've heard from American entertainment productions (like movies, series and even UA-cam videos), I've always thought of mormons as a regular branch of protestant Christianity, but more "radical", "fundamentalists" or "conservantive".
I'd NEVER imagined it would remotely envolve Hebrews and Jesus himself in the Americas, let alone envolving the Native Americans. I'm absolutely blown away by this! Thank you so much! Now I'm so curious to find out what they believe Jesus did here in the Americas and how they think of him differently.
It's all in the book! 🙂
Basically establish his church: preform miracles (healing the sick, curing blindness or lameness and the like), call 12 disciples, preach a sermon similar to the sermon on the mount in the new testament, give bread and wine like the last supper and command the people to hold communion (although mormons call it "the sacrament" rather than communion) once a week, quoted a couple old testament prophets etc. Mormons often compare the part of the book where Jesus visits the Americas (3rd Nephi chapters 11-30) to the gospels in the New Testament
Pretty similar stuff that Jesus did elsewhere. The only difference I can think of is that Jesus claimed that he has many other groups of followers and more scriptures would come forward besides the Bible & BoM
The Book of Mormon asserts that because indigenous Americans are descendants of ancient Israelites, they had prophets that prophesied of the coming of Jesus. And saw signs of Jesus' birth, and death. When Jesus was resurrected and appeared to his disciples in Judea, he left telling them, "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold". Mormons assert this is a reference to the people in the Americas who were following Hebrew traditions. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus appears to the people in the Americas, establishes his church in the same organization as the Judean church, with 12 apostles chosen from among the Nephites. He preaches the sermon on the mount to them, which is mirrored by the passages in the New Testament, with minor changes. He institutes communion (called the sacrament by Mormons), he heals the sick, blesses the children, and then leaves by ascension back into heaven.
The period after is described as a period of peace that lasted 400 years, with people having no divisions, no "ites", and lived under a sort of communalism. But people started to divide themselves with believers and non-believers, and 400 years after the coming of Christ they have a great war where the believers are all destroyed.
Also an important distinction, Mormons believe the Christian church fell away from the true way. By the time the Catholic church was organized the true church was lost in both the Americas and in the old world. Hence why Joseph Smith was the prophet that restored the true church of Jesus Christ.
What do native Americans have to say about the Mormon view of their history? Is there anything at all in Native American oral traditions that is suggestive of an American Jesus? Or A church of Jesus in America?
I have learned so much from this channel 💜💜💜
You do a phenomenal job of cutting up giant religious concepts into bite-sized pieces that I can comprehend and build from.
I was raised in a non-religious household. I never took interest in the Bible (or any other religious text for that matter), so I never learned the stories and the relationships.
I appreciate your hard work! Keep at it! 💜
I really love how respectful you are when talking about many different religions. You are a clear example how these discussions should happen in our daily lives. Thank you :)
Wonderful presentation of the facts! You have done such great work and it’s a pleasure to listen and watch all of your videos
Great review of the Book of Mormon storyline. I appreciate the respecrful and pragmatic approach you take with your videos. It makes them easy to watch even if I dont agree with everything said. Both books mentioned in this video that could have neen the basis for Joseph Smith when writing the Book of Mormon have been shown by LDS scholars to be a big stretch. Considering that Joseph Smith was practically illiterate, as explained by his wife who taught school at one point, its highly unlikely he could write such a massive book in a timespan of 90 days which is how long it took. Translating an existing ancient record is a semsible explanation.
I am a practicing member of the LDS faith but I still enjoyed this and other videos you create.
Thanks!
I am an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with a religious themed UA-cam channel. This video was very well done. In fact, up until the moment the video talked about the lost 116 pages and the different theories for the source of the Book of Mormon, this video could have been mistaken for a video produced by the Church itself, in my opinion. There was only one very MINOR error in the video's content - when it was said that Moroni put the small plates with the large plates. But even that error was corrected by a later comment in the video.
Thank you for doing this video, including sharing all of your historical perspectives. Well done!
[Updated] I agree with another commenter who said it seemed like there was less of an historical or scientific "consensus" surrounding the most probable theory for the origin of the content of the Book of Mormon when compared with the consensus theories you presented for other religious scripture. In this way, this video fell a little short of your other "Who wrote it...?" videos.
Considering that the timeline of the publication of the Book of Mormon is relatively recent and the writing process is relatively historically documented, it seems like there should be a straightforward consensus theory, well supported by the evidence, for who actually wrote the Book of Mormon, if Joseph Smith was NOT himself the source of the material at the tender age of 22-24. (This, by the way, is the same age as most of the undergraduate college students I have taught who can barely write a couple coherent pages over a semester, let alone a 500-page tome and pass it off to millions as scripture.)
Your previous videos determined that the historical Moses (if he existed) probably didn't write the books of Moses; the historical Paul wrote a few (but not all) of the books attributed to Paul; and Mohammad never physically wrote down any of the Quran.
I'll point out that young Joseph Smith (who also wrote two additional scripturally canonized books) is, therefore, unique in the history of people who have written documents that are subsequently accepted by millions of people around the world to be holy scripture.
Precisely none of the other historical authors of scripture penned anything accepted by a religion as scripture immediately upon its publication. Joseph Smith also started a world religion (now larger than Judaism) that has spread around the globe arguably faster than Paul's Christianity or Muhammad's Islam.
Regardless of what you think of Joseph Smith, or whether you believe he wrote, plagiarized (from where?), or translated the Book of Mormon, you have to see that his work was unique.
And all of this so that he could live a life of poverty and be assassinated at age 38.
What covenant did God give you.
@@jacovawernett3077 I'm not sure what you're talking about, but thanks for commenting.
@@talkofchrist ...Eli, Eli, lema sabbacthani. If you don't know what I am talking about just ask. What else would a woman who God told she is the Twin Soul of Yeshua say. Did you for 2 years prophesize the Global Pandemic declaration would be declared on March 11th. No. I did. It is also the anniversary of the Fukushima tsunami. 2011.
@@jacovawernett3077 I'm familiar with Matthew 27:46 and Psalms 22:1, but I still don't understand your question, which is why I said I don't know what you're talking about. But thanks for the guessing game. I'm done playing.
The issue with the book of mormon is that by comparison to the quran and the bible, there is not a lot of research into it's origins. There are entire career paths and universities dedicated to the origins of Christianity and Islam while there are a rare few individuals who secularly study the origins of the Book of Mormon. Also, to be frank with you, most non-mormon scholars would not likely even find the origins of the BoM to be an interesting endeavor as it is not a very large religion, and has not had a large impact on modern society or history. Therefore, there is not a large group of scholars from which a real "general consensus" could even be established when it comes to the BoM. As far as Muhammad goes, the consensus is that Muhammad did not PHYSICALLY write the Quran but that he narrated a complex book with many novel and poetic Arabic lines. As we both know, Joseph did not write the first copy of the BoM either, he dictated it to scribes. The video suggests that JS very well could have narrated a story like the BoM just as an illiterate Muhammad could have dictated the Quran. Both the Quran and the BoM contain narratives, writing styles, and ideas that existed in the time and place of each individual. Also, it is a bit silly to act like the BoM is some literary masterpiece that a 22 year old couldn't create. It is quite dry and repetitive throughout and not that particularly creative when you consider the ideas espoused in it were in circulation in the time and place of JS.
Also, religious books can be accepted by millions of people for many reasons, the book itself does not have to be of great quality in order to accomplish this. As pointed out in the video, the BoM gained traction at the time due to the emotional appeal it would have to those looking to find Christ in the Americas to and to those who already believed that natives were descendants of the lost ten tribes.
As always, a carefully considered and respectful approach. Truly appreciated. I also would be interested if you looked at the religious texts from the Indian subcontinent.
That was really interesting, thank you for putting it together.
I love this channel. I've learnt so many nuggets of wisdom helping to shape my opinion on these religions. Thank you!
This is a very coherent presentation of what has otherwise always seemed to me a very perplexing belief system. Good job!
Another amazing video! Thank you! I am Mormon and you did a fantastic and respectful job!!!
Another excellent video, thanks for sharing your knowledge and understanding.
Another great video! I was waiting for this one.
I find all of these analyses fascinating, thank you for doing them. I had a friend in college who was Baha'i, he was reluctant to talk about his religion since they have a restriction from proselytizing. I think it could do with a good third party analysis for people though.
It would be cool if you covered the history of the SDA church since it’s one of the main denominations that spring from the Great Awakening. As a former SDA member, I always found the history of the church fascinating. Maybe you could even do a series on the American Christian denominations like JW, SDA, Christ Science, etc.
I would love to see the history of SDA as well. Im not an SDA but i do have a lot of SDAs in my family clan and i studied in an adventist-run university.
In our curriculum, we have 4 classes of adventist theology. One here is called "Denominational History" which tackles about the history of SDA church. There are parts in the church history that made me do a 10th read because it's unique yet unbiblical, such as the investigative judgement, the entry of the room of holy of holies, soul sleep, tall jovian people and they're envy at us, and EGWs counsels that are now debunked. However, this university still follows the debunked teachings of EGW and treats it as the revelation from God. They see people who debunked her teachings as an anti-SDA even the de bunkers are SDAs themselves.
Even so, the story of EHG from getting hit by a stone on her head to become EGW and proclaimed that she is the messenger of God even she copied majority of her writings from other writers, is fascinating and good read. Not to be followed, but just as good read, to kill time.
Yes, please give a similar run through the general Adventist movement and Ellen Whites writings. I realised during your respons video to your videos that you have been brought up in a church influenced by the Adventist movement. Being brought up in the Seventh Day Adventist Church i just recently started to be aware of the part of the history surrounding the church that is not thought within the church itself.
I love that you declare your perspective up front. I happen to share it mostly, being a pretty secular Christian myself, but your commitment to academic honesty as demonstrated by declaring it to people with other perspectives is commendable.
Oooh, I’ve been WAITING for this one!
I am a Catholic but the way you present religions and historical data (such as alternate monarchs of European powers) are amazing.
Loving your videos on different scriptures, it's very fascinating to learn
Wow this was a great video as usual, thanks for the point of view!!
This is an awesome video though very complete and digestible with as few biases as possible. Always appreciate your content!
Hello. I really love this series which I find very instructive. Would you consider doing a video on the Baha'i faith ?
No.
Sorry.
I am not a LDS but was totally enthralled by your dissertation of the Mormon religion. WOW!!! The Best I’ve Ever heard!!! Brilliant!!! Incredible!!! You are amazing !!! Keep on doing what you’re doing. God bless you and your family my friend!!!🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️🤷🏽♂️
Brilliant work as always Matt.a really useful insight into a fairly young religion.
Thanks for many very interesting and enlighting videos! ❤️🎯
I've been a Mormon all my life and still am now, and i think you did a great job on this video. Very neutral, informative, and focused on the facts. You don't tell us what to believe but instead present the known facts and theories from those facts. Thank you for taking the time to research this.
I converted to the church at 19 and don't think it was very neutral. Talking about treasure digging or the Book of Abraham were completely unneccesary to explaining the Book of Mormon itself.
@fbi9792 I agree with you about that but also just saying if you look on youtube for content about the LDS church about 90% of it is just people yelling that its a cult and that Joseph Smith is a liar and all that
So seeing this is definently a lot more neutral than pretty much everything else
God created man, man created religion!
God created man to serve Him, man created religion for its followers to serve.
Religious men serve religion more than they serve God.
Jesus wants us to follow Him, not religion.
Jesus said I Am the way, not religion is the way.
Jesus said Follow Me, not follow me then pick some brand of worldly religion to follow also.
Jesus never followed a religion. In fact Jesus was against the religious people of His day and He even went as far as to call them the children of the devil.
The 12 disciples never followed religion, they only followed Jesus.
So why is it that Mormons and other religious people believe they need to create or join a religion????
People seek after religion because Jesus and the Gospel are no longer enough for them.
As Jesus is no longer enough for them they create a religion to follow.
It is like the people of Moses' day, where the people created a golden calf and worshiped it.
Mormons have set their religion before them like an idol. They worship it and they defend it.
Mormons need their book of Mormon because they believe that the Bible which contains all that Jesus did and taught is not enough for them.
Mormons believe "church" = a religious institution
Christians know "church" = people, followers of Jesus, His sheep.
Mormons are not Christians. They put their religion first and Jesus last.
Mormons are Mormon first and Christians second.
Mormons will always defend their religion because they hold it closer to their heart than they do Jesus and His Gospel.
Mormons are the most deceived church upon the earth.
Mormons belong to: The Church Of Joseph Smith of Latter Day Deceived
The Book Of Mormon is The Most Corrected Book Upon The Earth
The Book Of Mormon is Another Deception Of The Anti Christ
The Book Of Mormon is Joseph's Myth
Christians will always attack religion because IT is not of God.
Mormons will always defend their religion because THEY are not of God.
Religious people always need a religion to go through to get to God.
Christians only need Jesus to get to Him and the Father.
Any time that a church tells you that you have to go through them to get to God it is usually a cult.
When Mormons bear testimonies it is more so to convince EACH OTHER that their religion is true than to bear witness or convince non believers.
Mormons spend so much of their time bearing testimonies on the book of mormon being true and their church being true.
Christians already know that the bible is true and we know that anyone who follows Jesus are His true church.
Christians just get on with teaching the gospels and all that is contained within the bible.
Mormons just continue trying to convince everyone that their book of Mormon is true rather than devoting all their time to teaching anything out of it.
Mormons believe they can be married for all eternity.
The bible tells us that there is NO marriage beyond this life.
It also tells us that there is neither male nor female.
Mormons choose to believe fables over the truth which is the Holy Bible.
Jesus leads to salvation.
Joseph leads to damnation.
So Mormons, who will you choose? Jesus or Joseph?
As a member of the LDS church this was great. Thanks for the respectful approach. I know you only broke down the major groups LDS , Community of Christ, and Fundamentalist groups but there are several others most are branches in the Fundamentalist branch. There are other break away groups from the Community of Christ. Essentially conservative members left as the Community of Christ became more liberal.
Don't follow any brand of religion. All of them are false!!
Repent of your religion(s)!!
Turn back to Jesus and the one true gospel!!
Thanks for doing this video. Love your approach to this kind of topic.
Great video! Fair and unbiased presentation.
Great video, I found the whole nephite lamanite subplot hard to sit through, but the discussion about interpretations and literary influences was an excellent summary of the subject matter. ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ 5 stars!
You're work is impeccable! As a former Catholic who's been a Muslim for 13 years now, I really appreciate all your work.
As a member of the church, I honestly was going in with a bit of uncertainty of whether it would be the usual "No evidence, church bad, bla bla bla stuff." But I got to be honest, this was respectful of our material while being critical in several aspects. And it does make sense outside of having faith in the church for this view to be exposed. Anyway, thank you for the great video.
_... the usual "No evidence, church bad, bla bla bla stuff."_
I can't speak for your experience, but Matt's not like that. In all his videos, he's respectful to the subject, whatever religion, sect, or cult it may be. He has to be, living in a glass house as he is! 😂
@Bryce Calabaza With so many people claiming to present the Truth and most saying different things. Then I say your comment is uninformed. As there is evidence and science and historical findings match the Book of Mormon much more closely in 2022 than they did in 1830. Read stuff presented by those who believe in it. You might be quite surprised. Cities, highways, vast trade networks, writing, advanced culture, accurate description of middle eastern Bedouin life. All of which was contrary to common knowledge of the 1820s.
@@callishutchings7644 Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
@@baberoot1998 you must win all the debates
Awesome work!
From my studies, I seem to remember that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon in a matter of a few months. He never had his scribe read back to him what he had previously written but continued the translation right were he left off.
There is no problem with continuity in the Book nor are there discrepancies or even broken plots or unfinished stories, which would be amazing and possibly impossible for a writer to do
Thanks Matt, it'd be brilliant if you covered other religions as well. I'm learning here
That was really good brother. Thank you.
One of the things I love about these types of videos on Matt's channel is the comment section, always full of people sharing other resources or lines of inquiry into other religions, usually more esoteric ones or ones with very small, but devoted followers.
As a former Mormon I found your research and the presentation extremely informative. I left the "church" before apologists came up with the new revisionist interpretations of the Lamanites that you mention, and I was unaware of Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins."
I grew up on the property next to Ann Lee's Shaker settlement in Watervliet, New York and later lived in the burned out district of New York so I was well aware of the mystic traditions that pervaded the homegrown religions in rural upstate New York during the Second Great Awakening. I was twice a performer in the Hill Cumorah Pageant and would mention that the numerous myths associated with the hill have been found by archeologists to be bogus.
I would like to point out that the 1611 KJV was not only an inspiration to the Book of Mormon, but there are many passages directly plagiarized from it. I haven't made a count of them myself, but someone found that "twenty-seven chapters in the KJV of the Bible are repeated almost verbatim in the 239 chapters of the Book of Mormon." Also, in the slide comparing the size of religious groups the PEW Research Center now considers the non-religiously affiliated or "nones" to be a religious group that outnumbers Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, etc.
And just a pet peeve. An irritation I find in the nomenclature used by both the media and religionists is to refer to groups like the Warren Jeffs' group as "cults" yet they refer to those that have have grown in both numbers and social acceptance as "churches."
Thank you for the great work you do in preparing and executing these educational timelines.
I appreciate your calm scientific approach to these very complex and sensitive topics instead of taking the more common route of calling it all a cult ❤️
Well, using the definition he gave is his video on Armstrongism, Mormonism doesn't qualify as a cult. An argument could be made for them meeting the definition in the days of Joseph Smith, but as the old adage goes cult + time = main stream religion.
You're the coolest person that has ever lived for making these videos.
I've been to the Hill Cumorah, it's beautiful. I fell down it and have a scar on my knee now, so I tell people I was attacked by an ancient prophet as a transition into an explanation of our culture and history. My 7th great-grandfather converted to the church soon after it was founded, and his son was one of the founders of Salt Lake City and also the University of Utah. There is a lot of stigma around people of our beliefs, so I'm glad you covered this topic so respectfully. I know there are some really crazy Mormons out there, but like any other religion there are also some really great people as well. This is a great video that makes some great points while not being dismissive of our culture and beliefs. Thank you.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about it like you presented, the historical developments along with the mythology helps a lot in the understanding. I'm not Mormon, having been Roman Catholic for many years. I converted to Wicca in my mid-30s and when I was teaching, I had a two week class I taught on comparative religions, since I believe that you really shouldn't go into a religion without knowing what else is out there. I'm also a historian and I find historical religious development very interesting. I just found this channel and have spent several hours today digging through the videos. Great work, everyone! I can recommend a comparative study of the various beliefs of that umbrella group called Paganism/NeoPaganism, the development of the various sects. As I said, this was interesting history, thank you for making it.
Very interesting video again. I don't think you've done a complete overview of the various forms of Christianity yet? But based on these video there are probably several videos in there: early christianity before the Council of Nicea and/or up until the Reformation, the development of Protestantism in both Europe and North America after the Reformation.
The book View of the Hebrews actually bears testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon from start to finish. As a Mormon, I loved the book, thanks for sharing it on your video. See what many native american tribes believed: "Whence their ideas that their ancestors once had the book of God; and then were happy; but that they lost it; and then became miserable; but that they will have this book again at some time?" That's why Oliver Cowdery offered to help Joseph, because he read this book and he knew that Joseph was translating something special, that the native americans believed to be the Book of God. Just amazing!
Excellent work!
Thank you for that video. It gave a well overview of that topic. And I learned even something (Malaysia Hypothesis). Honestly I had hoped, to find a deeper answer into the question WHO actually wrote it. Writing-Analytics seem to indicate that it actually was Smith. But it is to me still hard to believe he could have done it alone. And the supporting theories are to me a bit too fuzzy. But going into this topic would be probably too deep for such a channel and bore the majority of the audience who are not so much into mormonism details. :D
11:14 Wait... there's a claim that the Book of Mormon is set in Malaysia? This is the first time I've heard of this claim!
Why do I hear Malaysia mentioned in the weirdest and most unexpecting of places? XD
I'm not a Mormon, but I understand the Malaysian hypothesis is because 1. the Book of Mormon describes a route into Arabia and then through the Indian Ocean, which better fits a journey to Southeast Asia than through the Pacific to the Americas, 2. there have been Jewish and Christian communities in India and Southeast Asia, 3. the Book of Mormon appears to refer to iron tools, to horses, and possibly to elephants, and 4. there is a Narrow Neck of Land in what's now southern Thailand.
It is called..."grasping at straws". (Because they know that the "it happened in the America's, is so outlandish an idea...that they are grasping at the "Malaysian" theory). It is all made up by Joseph Smith. Made up. Fiction. Period.
@@baberoot1998 Most likely the Malaysian hypothesis is a measure of how much of Joe Smith's story would fit anywhere with suitable geography, and suitable conditions. But suppose it's actually true. Suppose Joe Smith found and miraculously translated a history of the Malay peninsula, which a last exile brought to the Americas for safe-keeping. Suppose it can be proven. Some of his interpretations would be spectacularly wrong. So that would do nothing to confirm Joe Smith's later teachings, let along Brigham Young's, and if anything, it would raise more questions.
Love your stuff
You’re opening many eyes, thanks
LDS here, great video.
Really well done as always 👏 I found the mention of the book at the end interesting because as an ex-Mormon I would agree with Palmer's view on it.
Many people argue that the creation of Mormonism was a scam to get wealth or women, while Mormons question that asking "what did they really gain", but I think if you look at the other writings by the founders of Mormonism, the stuff in Pearl of Great Price in particular (kinda surprised the other two books weren't touched on), you kinda get a sense that they believed in what they were doing even if they knew the BoM itself wasn't historically true. It is similar to what you said in the Bible series that writers would sometimes knowingly make up stories or exaggerate existing stories for the purpose of spreading a specific message. For Mormonism, I think that message was one that included some emerging American values of the time like freedom of religion which is enshrined in Mormonism, Articles of Faith 11 (Pearl of Great Price), as well as a greater focus on personal spirituality and forgiveness over social law and punishment.
The beginning of Mormon history according to it's founders starts by saying that Joseph Smith was confused and dissatisfied with all of the emerging denominations at the time and decided to take the matter to God through prayer, thus leading to Moroni's visit and the subsequent revelation of the tablets. I do believe that Mormonism was founded on that dissatisfaction and a desire to do better, as far as they saw it.
If one thinks of the BoM as aspirational sex fantasy for men running the world it makes perfect sense.
Even today, non Mormons always wonder about the sex paractices of Mormons.
They are viewed a s a sex cult.
Well said.
I’m a Mormon too but just to humor you: they gained practically a whole kingdom, hundreds of billions of dollars, a militia and power, just sayin. None of that really matters though because ultimately the message is don’t do things that are bad for you or society 😂😂
Excellent video as always! Almost at 1 million subscribers! I've been a watcher and commenter since around 20k!
Great work!
Thank you for a very interesting and informative and respectful approach to explaining the Book of Mormon.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS/MORMON) for over 30 years and I learned things.
How about something on the more esoteric stuff? Golden Dawn, Thelema, Crowley, and the relationship between those and some of the later religions like Wicca, Neo-Paganism, and even Scientology. I think it'd make for a great chart/video based on influences like you've done here.
Agreed. I thought about how interesting some of these may be as well- Scientology also came to mind for me. I’d like a thorough chart of it. All we have now is the South Park episode.
Yes please!
@@richard2524 You need big ɓalls to do that, and probably not on YT. Copyright and such. SP only got away with that AND a libel suit because they wrote the episode in such a way that even the lawsuit-happy CoS knew that it would blow up in their face, and that only worked because SP is a big name.....
Book of Urantia?
I love your channel. I, along with alot of the people here, im sure, appreciate the time and effort you have put into creating this presentation. These charts are perfect for a nerd like me, and I will be ordering the evolution one, the world history one, and writing systems one
Thank you, Matt!
My computer battery died so I put a rock in my hat and watched this video from there.
Great work, Matt!
I'm a faithful member of the Church and I laughed
@@ldsviking Good to hear! I didn't mean it disrespectfully. :)
This video made me understand the Mormons much better and feel even closer with them
well structured, good rhythm bravo
Yeah, a new one! Thanks 😊 I think, this would be also really fascinating to Mr.Beat, and you know why. 😀
Rastafarianism would be super interesting to look into due to the lineage aspect.
Ah yeah, the ol' magic glasses. I got mine from an advert in the back of a comic book
Thanks for sharing the video
Great video thanks!
You make excellent videos my friend. I am LDS and, although I disagree with some of the points you made (especially in the latter half of your video), I think this was fairly thorough and very enjoyable.
It is always interesting to see the perspective of non LDS humans commenting on my beliefs. I would love to have your notes and sources.
Thanks for the great videos. @UsefulCharts
Thanks for this. As an ex-Mormon I found it gave a helpful perspective on what I once was very committed to.
Thank you for doing this video and I couldn’t help but hear the south park music about Joseph smith
This was amazing, even though I am not a member of the LDS I have read several chapters of the Book of Mormon and found it a pretty good read. I plan to finish it in the future.
Wow! It has a nice message. You can pray for it as well. ❤
I would like to see more on Orthodox Christianity!
Love your videos! I’m a member of this Church and I was excited to hear your thoughts in this video. For the most part I thought you were pretty fair but a little disappointed that a some of your personal opinion was mixed in there with your research. But I guess it is your channel lol overall I enjoyed it 👍
Great video! Please do one on the early Christian church, the church fathers, what their relationships were and when they lived…
awesome video! cant believe im only now discovering it. im not lds myself but am very interested in it! the book of mormon definitely has its holes, but some of the answers ive been given are interesting when i asked. im not sure if these are widely held as it was just a few of my friends that told me but basically the book and what is in it was perfect for the people at the time. like you mentioned, alot of parallels could be made to popular beliefs during the early 1800's and thats cause the book of mormon isnt a direct translation! most languages cant be "directly" translated of course, and require some interpretation to find out what someone was trying to say. a famous example of a flaw in the book is the mention of horses, which werent in the americas until much later. the reason theyre mentioned is because its most likely the golden plates had llama or something like that, and when joseph smith read about a 4 legged animal used for travel, he thought "that sounds like a horse" and put it in. this might also explain some the implied racism in the book, but this one has multiple theories. maybe nephi wanted to talk about the evil/darkness in ones heart and joseph smith made it physical, as the darkness being their skin :/ the other theory is that the true restored church would never have formed at all at that time if it allowed black people, and forming the church was more important than including everyone, but i dont like that one either as it implies God had to compromise which doesnt sound right 🤔of course maybe i misunderstood what i was being told, or that theory is wrong completely and its really something else but thats just what ive gathered from asking around
also, bigfoot is also cain. really! one of the leaders of the church said so in the 1800s and that right there is one of the coolest explanations for bigfoot ever