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What happened to the stone box that held the golden plates in the Hill Cumorah? | Ep. 199
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Joseph Smith claimed to have recovered the golden “Book of Mormon” plates from a stone box embedded in a hill later named Cumorah. Is that stone box still there? If not, what happened to it? Did anyone else ever see it? In this episode, David explores these questions and more.
Video transcript: saintsunscripted.com/faith-an...
- David Whitmer interview, Salt Lake Herald-Republican, August 12, 1875 (reprinted from Chicago Times): bit.ly/3zu82IR
- David Whitmer interview, Deseret Evening News, August 16, 1878 (interview with P. Wilhelm Poulson): bit.ly/3lJybzR
- David Whitmer interview, Deseret Evening News, June 11, 1881 (reprinted from Kansas City Journal, June 5, 1881): bit.ly/40kOItf
- David Whitmer interview, Chicago Times, 17 Oct. 1881 (reprinted in Saints’ Herald 28 [15 Nov. 1881]: 346-347): bit.ly/3GgSNqj
- “Reminiscences of Joseph the Prophet, And the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon” by Elder Edward Stevenson, 1893: bit.ly/3m3EH4E
- Photo from 1907 of where the plates were supposedly buried: bit.ly/3n9rh7v
- “A Story on Canvas, Paper, and Glass: The Early Visual Images of the Hill Cumorah,” by Richard Holtzapfel and Cameron Packer (BYU Studies): bit.ly/3U3V4uK
- Short article from Salt Lake Tribune (Oct. 1, 1872) challenging Orson Pratt to account for the stone box: bit.ly/40mUqL9
- Sidney Rigdon emphatically stated that he had never met Joseph Smith until after the Book of Mormon was already published: bit.ly/40DIV1Q
- Some additional information on Lorenzo Saunders via FamilySearch: bit.ly/40YAVsk
- A mention from “Mormonism In All Ages,” by Jonathan B. Turner (1841), pg. 15: “He went, and found them deposited in a box of stone, near the surface of the earth, nicely secured both from air and moisture, by means of a peculiar cement applied to the joints of the box.” Source: bit.ly/3lMlYKM
- In this anti-Latter-day Saint work, Martin Harris is credited with referring to the container as “a box or ark”: bit.ly/3nhzuX9
- “Acquiring Cumorah,” by Cameron J. Packer (BYU Studies): bit.ly/3MzcAp5
Notes:
- In Orlando Saunders’ interview, the interviewed mentioned, “Well; you seem to differ a little from a good many of the stories told about these people.” Orlando responded, “I have told you just what I know about them, and you will have to go somewhere else for a different story.” It seems to me that he was aware of the malicious rumors that had been spread about the Smiths and was intentional about not perpetuating them (unlike Orlando’s younger brother, Lorenzo). Source: See “Early Mormon Documents” by Dan Vogel, 2:102-103
- John Hyde Jr. complained in “Mormonism, its Leaders and Designs,” that after Joseph’s opening of the box in 1823, “after the snows and rains of four winters such a box would be quite barer, and would have been inspected and robbed. To say that God should act thus in preserving ‘his holy word’ is ridiculous and improbable.” If the box had remained undiscovered for several centuries by that point, it does not strain credulity for it to last another few years. That said, if the box were left open and exposed after Joseph retrieved the plates in 1827, it may have been more noticeable and susceptible to the tampering of others. Source: bit.ly/3KgoaDW
- Lorenzo Saunders and Pomeroy Tucker (probably among others?) reported that men looking for treasure had dug a rather prominent hole on the northeastern side of the hill (according to Saunders). Critic Dan Vogel suggests that the men that David Whitmer overhears talking about the “place in the hill that [Joseph] took them out of” might be confusing the true site with this other hole. There’s no way to verify that theory, but at any rate, if David’s testimony is to be believed (which I believe it should be), then David actually later visited the hill and saw for himself the box made out of stones fixed in some kind of cement. This would not have been present in the other alleged hole.
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In all my years in this church I had never thought about this question. People have asked me what happened to the plates but never what happened to the stone box. Very interesting video.
It's clear that a lot of research goes into these videos. Pro sources and con sources. Thanks for all you do to shed light on these topics.
Hey Tyler, I just watched the video, I have a similar sentiment, well researched!
I served in the Cumorah Mission, it was common knowledge that the hill Cumorah had been dug up from top to bottom by the residents of the county.
Doesn’t matter if the entire NY state population dug up the hill…..there would be artifacts of some sort supporting this nonsense.
Moroni, Comora?
And they found nothing. The whole story is lame.
@@johncunningham739 actually you’re wrong. They found the empty cement box.
@@UVJ_Scott Did they find the toad spirit sitting in it still?
Dude! I’ve wondered about this for years! Answering personal questions or at least helping to answer such questions is one reason why I love this channel!
You hear about the boy that fell into a room at the Hill Cumorah? Some folks took photos and there was a shelf and everything in said room.
There is some who believe that it may have been the cave wherein many Nephite records were kept. Mormon was told by Ammaron to move the records from the Hill Shim. Did he move them to a room in Cumorah? Perhaps. There are accounts by Brigham Young of Joseph and Oliver having entered a room wherein where many plates including the sword of Laban. Brigham said there were enough records to fill several wagons. Why would he say that? Could the records have been moved after the translation work was done? Considering that many would have torn the hill apart looking for gold plates, it is possible that they were moved back to the original holding place: Hill Shim. David Whitmer did say that the plates were moved and would not be found by anyone.
@@danpiedra3910 The LDS CHURCH of Carrot Chasers with egg on their faces. What a damning Historical backward, Religion, the first presidency needs a Church Court Disciplinary Hearing from the Masses, for misleading them with three standard works of doctrine , all proven to be False.
I was just wondering about this after reading Joseph's testimony ended a Google search and found this video. Thank you for putting out so many well-researched and informative videos!
Almost all of your videos strengthen my testimony. This one included. I love the stories and documents presented. Thank you for your insight and research.
How did your testomony strength?
@@sampathrathnayaka3905 My testimony was strengthened by having information and documents supporting that there was a stone box.
Thanks for your continued support!
@@dwRS1 there never was a box, plates, or anything that Smith dreamt up. Keep on looking, nothing will ever be found. Smith was a manipulative opportunist.
@@clurkroberts2650 You have a right to your opinion. If you read the Book of Mormon with an open mind you might feel differently. Good luck.
Wow Snell! That's awesome. You nailed an unimaginable question
Top quality stuff! How you find your information and sources is a miracle. Plus I'm a Saunders and will have to do some "digging" of my own now...
Another great video. Good work!
Thanks!
I love the recent edition of the voice acting or narration for the various quotes. Really feels like they are more real life that way. Thank you for putting together such great videos.
Glad you're enjoying the new additions to the show!
I feel like this has come up in other comments and replies. Time for some new material. But of course I agree with the sentiment! 😆
While I fully believe God can hide anything from mankind, it is awesome to see these historical sources. It makes so much sense that the stones would have been dug up, moved, etc. with the ever changing landscape.
The modern day Hill Cumorah is completely the wrong hill. All the testimonies in this video were referring to a hill to the North of the hill with the Visitor Center. What they called "Hill Cumorah" is today known as "Miners Hill". This is the hill that Joseph Smith was always referring to. Everything that happened happened on this hill, not the hill to the South we call Cumorah.
The cavity near the top on the West side is well documented and photographed.
Miners Hill was excavated in 2015 and the cavity in the hill was reopened by some friends or brothers. I don't recall the details.
In 1907 a photo of Miners Hill was taken by the same photographer that took the photo of the sacred grove. I forget his name.
The cave on Miners Hill was photographed and documented in the 1970's as well.
Nothing at all happened on the hill with the visitor center where they used to do the pageant. It's been completely misidentified, possibly on purpose.
Sources please.
You are referring to the hill where the printers manuscript was probably copied in a cave. That was never claimed to be the hill, Camorah however. The hill with the visitor center is correct.
Man, all those wasted years and efforts putting on that pageant. I saw it in the 1970 and Pres Kimball was there, you'd think a prophet of God would have clued us in on the real hill.
I love how the BOM is changed again recently, regarding the uniformed Nephite, an a artists impression of the suit of amour, when authorities were questioned on the design, the drawing was withdrawn, as no evidence was found to even consider that artists impression. so too is the egyptian facisimilie on back where the translation was totally incorrect, seems everything is disappearing, ,the plates and even our testimonies .
an internal memo lettered within the first presidency asked the same question from one elder to another, its believed the Hill directly opposite the visitors center is in fact the Hill
Thank you,well done 👍👍
Thanks!
I love the sound effects at 1:28, the WHOOOSH as the concrete box is rotating 😄
I love this video!
Maintaining extremely high content creation quality. Nailed it!
Thanks!
I always thought the box was still there, but hidden, but it looks like it was destroyed 😢
But at least not before the Restoration was fully underway. 😊
@@Vetionarianbut book of Abraham is proven to be false so if he lied he can lie again and he said he never had more than one wife and he lied to Emma if he lied once he could lie again, Adam and Eve were not in Missouri in the Garden of Eden….
I loved this. Great explanation. I have always wondered this and all the sources make it helpful to put a hypothesis together. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed the episode!
I had a teacher in grade who told me the angel took it and the plates and re-buried them way down deep within the hill.
On my mission a man we tracted into insisted that he KNEW that that gold bible was on a turn table on top of some stone box pedestal in the Salt Lake Temple, with a glass dome over it and a spotlight shining down on it.
So that is now my head-canon.
I was told that the Pope had them. 😂
@@SlimmerKimmers And he keeps them locked in the Ark of the Covenant, which is stowed in Noah's Ark, locked in a storage shed located in Atlantis.
@@BodkinVanHorn-zs8npand guarded by Cherubim and a flaming sword
Non-LDS here, my question for this, how difficult would it have been for someone to create this box during that time? It's very difficult to go off eye witness testimony from people in general today, much less hundreds of years ago because people lie out of emotion to prove or disprove things. Logical and critical thinking is what's leading this question, beliefs of whether any of this existed or not is out of the question with this, and just assuming it all existed for the sake of the question. I'm very fascinated with history.
This is a good question and I'm grateful for the respectful way in which you asked it. Thank you. Here are some of my thoughts:
It certainly wouldn't have been impossible to create a stone box. The hardest part, I would imagine, would have been making your own cement (I don't know how to do that, but maybe it was more common knowledge in the 1800s, idk.) I don't recall Joseph Smith having much experience in masonry by 1827, but I can't imagine a stone box would have been too difficult. Inscribed metal plates, a breastplate, and the Urim and Thummim inlaid into metal spectacles, however, would require a lot more expertise. Honestly if I were inventing a religion, it would have been easier to just say, "God has revealed directly to my mind a sacred text! I wrote it down. Here it is," as opposed to forging a bunch of artifacts that relatively few people even ended up seeing.
Regarding witness testimony -- I totally see what you're saying. Just because David Whitmer saw a stone box doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. Some might believe that Joseph just made the box himself. That's fair. I can't prove that that wasn't the case any more than critics can prove it was. This reasoning becomes more challenging, though, when, for example, the 3 witnesses of the Book of Mormon plates (one of which was David Whitmer who I quoted extensively in this video) claim to have been shown the golden plates by a literal angel of God. Angels are hard to fake. Of course, skeptics find ways around that as well -- maybe they were hypnotized, or on psychedelic drugs, or only thought they saw the angel in their mind's eye, etc. All of those explanations sound far fetched to me (yes, even more far-fetched than actually seeing an angel), given the wealth of testimony we have from the witnesses, even after they left the Church. But good people can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions about it. Latter-day Saints teach that the best way to discover whether or not the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be is to sincerely study the book, ponder its teachings, and to ask God in prayer if it is true or not. Ultimately, a testimony of spiritual things needs to come from a spiritual source. Everything else (including this video) is interesting but tangential. Shoot me a message on Facebook if you have additional questions or would like to keep chatting! facebook.com/DavidSnellSaintsUnscripted/
@@davidsnell2605 thank you for the reply. That was my assumption also, that Joseph wouldn’t have had that kind of knowledge to craft it. It seems that the negative witnesses in this case were people that already had bad blood with Joseph and his family from prior events, which is why I mentioned not being able to go off everyone’s eyewitness testimony. It would seem to me, that logical thinking in this case would conclude that something was there and even if the contents inside were not seen by anyone, it’s a little difficult to dispute that there was a concrete box there, which Joseph would probably have a very difficult time constructing. There’s quite a bit about the LDS religion that I am skeptical about, which is fine, I’m sure I have some beliefs that you may be skeptical about as well, but when it comes to the history aspect of this, specifically this situation, it has my spidey senses tingling and wanting to know more lol. I think I’m going to try and dig into this further. Again, thank you for your reply.
@@davidsnell2605Here's the thing. One can believe the BOM and even believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. That doesn't necessarily lead in a straight line to a belief in the LDS church. I just don't see that as a logical necessity.
The cement would still be present according to the story. And cement is commonly analyzed. The odd thing is the stones were left? That is a problem, because all other things are gone, so why were the stones left? If all were left or all were taken it would not be such a problem.
@@GUAMANIANable yeah I'd agree with that. For example, depending on where you land when it comes to prophetic succession you may find yourself in a variety of camps. I think Brigham Young's route makes the most sense (we've done a few videos on the succession crisis), but there are plenty who have disagreed with that.
Insightful and honest.
Wonderful video!
Thank you very much!
I pumped septic tanks for 6 months. I came to the conclusion that the stone box was miraculous. We would open up tanks that had sound lids and find snakes and insects in there frequently. The fact that water didn’t flood the box and fill it wrecking the contents is at the very least good engineering. I have seen hopewell-adena copper plate objects, breastplates and jewelry from that area and time. They are all so deeply corroded that even if something was written on them by the time they get to us you can’t read it. This was really a fantastic project to get he plates to Joseph before he translated anything. So that box could be a complete miracle and I would be just fine with it.
That stone box is a full of the same stuff you pumped out.
@@yomuno2511 Based on the quality of your comments I can see your mind is filled with stuff far worse than what we pumped, and I know the Book of Mormon is true and I spirited of God and nothing like what came out of a septic tank.
Or maybe the stone box never existed.. which is probably the case.
Completely unrealistic
It's amazing that they went to so much trouble...and pointlessly so. As the official story clearly indicates, a resurrected man angel, like Moroni could just haul the plates up to a storage unit in heaven for safekeeping at any time. Why bother keeping it in a moldy stone box on the side of a drumlin near Palmyra? Furthermore, as the official story also clearly indicates, it was never necessary for Joseph Smith to even look at the gold plates, since the translation was done by way of either a magic rock in a hat or magic translation crystals wired up to a breastplate, neither of which required anyone to actually look at the plates. Finally, the whole thing would have gone a lot better if angels would have just created a perfect translation in heaven and then had it delivered to Joe by way of the glow-in-the-dark resurrected man angel named Moroni. Instead, all we get is 200 years of believers trying to explain why all the physical evidence is gone...dog-ate-my-homework style.
Thanks. I had had this question, and you are the first that answered ot for me. Cool
@@Jozeemoss
I dont understand your response
Love this channel so much
♥
Really interesting. I have wondered about that for awhile.
I never really thought about that. It would make sense for it to be destroyed though. The hill was practically destroyed in the topsoil by gold diggers, and when they found it, they probably dug all around it looking for anything else, destroying it in the process or something.
You bealive the Garden of Eden was in Missouri
@@dannielcruz460 what does that have to do with my comment?
Wasn't the hill full of trees before it was farmed? I'm no geologist but it seems that it would be plausible that even if the box weren't removed, removing the trees and plant life would make it easy for soil to be washed down the hill and bury it or wash it away too. That's what happened to the water meter cover in my brother's front yard in a matter of a few years, so we had to find it with a magnet. 🤷♂
My mother prayed for knowledge about the Mormon belief so she could tell her children. After her prayer she saw a bright light and a man in white robes and bare feet not touching the floor. He spoke, “I am Moroni.” Then he disappeared. My mother called me on the phone and asked, “Who is Moroni?”
Uh huh
you need to ring moroni because nephi was the first angel in church history documented as the first, when Joseph passed, it was deemed that Moroni was translated from the plate to fit it in( Nephis name was twinked out ), and the revelation changed to suit the BOM as we read it today.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent" ( Jn 17:3) So what does it mean to know Him ? To , enter into the everlasting covenant as administered in our temples, and by staying on the covenant path find, Christ (2 Ne 32:5-6), that ought to be far more important than to find the stone box. That ought to be our quest; that is the hereitage of the saints of God. ( Good luck in finding the stone box)
Interesting
If you have a testimony of the book of Mormon, it's no mystery. God can hide whatever He wants in the earth for however long He wants.
Exactly
Was there a Urim Thummin? in there? Or a seer stone?
Honestly curious - how do LDS people explain the reality of the Hill Cumorah and the angel Moroni and the reality that Camorah was a place with a city called Moroni before Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon (and easily could have appeared in a book available in Joseph’s time)? How could this be coincidental? Again, genuinely curious - I’ve seen LDS people critique away other CES letter things, but this coincidence seems hard to explain away.
Good question -- I briefly touch on this question in this video: ua-cam.com/video/8h0Bfc8-gsE/v-deo.html
Here's a transcript of the relevant portion: "...there’s also the theory that Joseph got the name Cumorah from the Comoros Islands off the coast of Mozambique over 8000 miles away. To spice things up, critics are quick to point out that there’s a city in this island country called Moroni.
But critics have struggled to piece together how Joseph would have known about Moroni, considering the fact that in Joseph’s time Moroni was so small that nobody has yet found a map or gazette contemporary to Joseph that goes to the trouble of identifying it. But could it possibly just be coincidence that a name as unique as Moroni exists outside the Book of Mormon? Well, considering the fact that some of the other locations in this country are Domoni, Chomoni, Fomboni, and Pomoni, I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch.
---------------------------------------------
So, ultimately, I would disagree with the notion that this information "easily could have appeared in a book available in Joseph's time." No one has found one, yet. And even if they did find one, they'd also need to sincerely figure out how realistic it would have been for Joseph to have had access to it. I think it's all just a coincidence. Shoot me a message on Facebook if you'd like to chat more about this! Thanks for the sincere question.
@@davidsnell2605 I hope you'll read my reply above and check out the article - it even appears in an LDS publication
@@levipatrickdiaz comments containing links (from non-moderators) are automatically blocked on our channel to prevent trolls from posting inappropriate content. You'll have to send the link over to me in a personal message.
@@davidsnell2605 Sure! What's the best way to do that?
@@levipatrickdiaz if you have Facebook, shoot me a message here: facebook.com/DavidSnellSaintsUnscripted/
Archaeologists have been excavating the ruins of ancient sites that have been discovered under the current cities bearing the same name as the site it was built upon. It is completely in keeping with this pattern that the stone box may actually be 10 or 20 feet below the current surface of the earth.
Where is it today
What weight could the gold plates have been estimated to be?
According to Willard Chase, Joseph told him in 1827 that the plates weighed between 40 and 60 pounds.
So the box was there, and then people moved it. Interesting. The box itself would be most interesting as it was sealed with "concrete". Anti-Mormon Bigots used to say they didn't have concrete back then, but archeology has indeed found concrete, but not from that era in North America. I'm guessing it was a clay slurry that was used to seal the box and it dried out, looking like concrete. Maybe. Most interesting.
what about the stories we have heard of "many other records" were there and not allowed to be taken, what about labens sword, wasn't that there as well, or was that not part of the story
Was the angel Moroni an Italian?
I had a grade school teacher who said the plates and stone box were re-buried by the angel in the Hill Cumorah.
The Angel Moroni took them when the translation was complete.
I'll tell you what that today, about 2 hours ago. This question popped into my head, and then all of a sudden you have an episode on it. Inspired timing? 🤔
Now here's an idea for the next Indiana Jones movie!
Saw it last night. LIked it better than the last one.
Babylon Bee already made an article about that 😅
Working title: Indiana Jones and the Massive Fraud
@@Red-gp9hn Dang, my intention is never to imitate the Bee lol
The Lord will not please, if our faith will base on material things or an objects, the reason why even that stone box was destroyed. The Lord works with men, not in an object. He is more on the testimonies, let everyone asked him in prayer if the witnessed was true.
Perhaps it became slippery, and "slipped into the earth..."
I can’t say for certain but there is an account by my father who lived in New York as a child. My grandfather was a master electrician and he was contracted by the church to help build the patent center in the hill cumorah and my father and his siblings would go and help my grandfather when they were children. My father has told me and my siblings and I have asked my aunts and uncles and they said the same thing. That one day he was playing with a ball with his siblings on the hill cumorah when my grandfather was building the stage. And the ball was kicked off into a large bush. When they went to get the ball my dad had to reach past the bushes and when he looked inside he said he saw a stone box like Joseph smith described but he couldn’t get to the box. He said the bushes were to thick to get through and guarding the box was hornets and spiders and all types of bugs. My dad ran to get my grandfather and show him what he had found but when they came back they couldn’t find the bush or the box again.
" He said the bushes were to thick to get through and guarding the box was hornets and spiders and all types of bugs."
So, no bloody Spanish ghost guarding the box, then?
Hey I just wanted to say I love these videos! I’m a faithful member, soon to be missionary. I had a question for you and I’ll be posting this on a few videos in hope of a response. I think it’s possible, but do we believe that those who truly believe in Christ, and pray can be involved in miracles. For instance, can we affirm healings done by baptists and Catholics without taking away from our own beliefs?
We believe that God loves all of his children and that there are true believers of Christ found in many non-LDS congregations. We are taught that miracles occur when there is faith in Christ.
Therefore, miracles can and do occur outside of the bounds of the priesthood. Faith miracles will never be proof of religion but rather proof of faith.
The truths we hold dear are confirmed by the testimony of the Holy Ghost. If we ask with a sincere heart, real intent, and faith in Christ, we can know the truth of all things through the power of the Holy Ghost.
According to general authorities, yes
@@dane_with_swag Cool. Where’d you get it? I’d like to read or listen to it.
I've never heard of a miracle in the LDS, but miracles have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with God.
Hey guy!
Egg eyes!
@@SaintsUnscripted 🥚👀
Hay guise!
@@taylor_su da da duhhhhhh
Do the Mormons still have Smith's seer stone? If they could image it with x rays or an MRI or some such, and it isn't just a rock, that would help to make their case.
There is a photograph of what looks like a stone box that looked like it was ripped from the ground on the hill cumorah but it is unclear if it’s was the stone box in question. I saw the photo at a FARMS presentation years ago at BYU with Mr Lyons. I forget how old the black and white photo was supposedly taken.
Yeah....No Tablets...No stone Box...What about a copy of the original Book of Morman first printing may I see that?
The hill did itself did exist. Not long ago during our era a small boy fell in a hole on this hill , and was rescued. Now what is strange. Many have said that the land in this area could not support caves because of the way the land is formed. But what was found when this boy was rescued is that the hill had a basic concrete inner box shape. But nothing was in it. We feel the members removed everything out of it. Where it is only the church knows. And this is as it should be.
Source?
It seems to me that in the 18 hundreds people didn’t have many options to entertain themselves imagine not having all the technology that we enjoy in the present! They were hungry for money and very very very bored desperate to find treasures and exciting stories to tell !! Joseph S tells so many stories angels coming to him angels appearing !! Well where are those angels now? How come these visions stop , like the story where Brigham Y face turns into JS face !!! These are the stories that these people love !! But they don’t happen anymore
I’ve always wanted to go search the hill! If you set up a ‘go fund me’, I’ll go search the hill again and the surrounding hills for all the other records! It’s always been a dream of mine.
They are not there, so you will be wasting time.
LOL. In 1965, when I was 10 years old, my family visited the area. My two brothers and I ran all over that hill looking for that stone box. And then in 1995, I took my wife and four kids there. My then 14 year old son ran all over the hill looking for that stone box. I daresay that tens of millions of people have looked for that stone box over the last 193 years, including millions who attended the Hill Cumorah Pageant for decades.
So if such a box existed, it would have been found long before now.
@@randyjordan5521 No, the box was removed by someone. So quit wasting time! It is gone!
thats where it needs to stay as a dream,
Wasn’t there also a cave full of treasures in the hill?
no. No treasure was ever reported to be found by Joseph Smith between 1820 and 1826. The only treasure he claims to have found was the stone box with the plates. Which conveniently no one ever saw, except for witnesses whose accounts differ greatly because they saw them with "spiritual eyes".
@@Jozeemoss How do you determine whether a story is fiction?
No
@@thepianist7084 I wasn’t looking for a six paragraph essay. Slow down.
No, that wasn’t something witnesses claimed or no, there isn’t a cave full of treasures in the hill?
@@mikefoxtrot1314 apparently wagon loads of plates, hows that for treasure, how about the door suddenly opening .the makings of a movie, fiction or non fiction,
This video is like a juicy grape on the side of my dinner plate of church history. It is a minor topic, and yet so satisfying.
And every time you try to get it with your fork to eat it, it just rolls under the tines and shoots across the plate. Impossibly elusive.😂
I cannot understand how all of you believe any of this.
Look
Edward Stevenson! That's my great Grandpa. Also Elder Stevenson's
Well it was never there and Joe never showed it to anyone. And how did a sward fit in there
Someone once said even if the gold plates are on display in plain sight in some museum detractors will continue to mock the Book of Mormon...why?...read last chapter of Moroni.
Because they need a reason to fall back on when science and logic prove it false...
What a ridiculous statement. It’s pure speculation what someone would do in a hypothetical situation when one element in the situation is fictional. It’s like saying “even if they saw me pull Excalibur from the stone, they wouldn’t believe I was the real king of England”. It’s not real!!!!
Someone once said even if the BoM was obvious fiction, believers would continue to proclaim it true. Why? Because it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Why, that makes perfect sense. I'm surprised that museums have displayed King Tut's treasures, because viewers just look at them and mock, mock, mock.
We were always told in church that the box and plates were taken back to heaven.
Right and pages cannot be reproduced, no bodies found, absolutely 0 evidence jut a child molester's word. That chmo made a lot of money with this fraud and was then killed by his own friends.
I have certainly been taught that regarding the plates, but I don't recall being taught that about the box itself.
Going back to a question from an 1871 Tribune as if the whole question of the plates hasn’t been questioned and debunked in Joseph Smith’s time and every time since.
Hey Salvatore! Good to hear from you. Crazy you should comment -- I was just watching your music video (yet again) a couple of weeks ago, because it's such a gem.
Yeah, this has been a topic (among many many others regarding the plates) people have certainly been talking about long before and long after the Trib article, I just liked how they worded it in 1871 :).
@@davidsnell2605 Very kind of you to say. I will be commenting a lot more. It’s good to get the other perspective out there. We’ll see what makes it through the censors.
What happened to the rock?
David Whitmer: *"He again opened the box, and in it saw the book,* and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. *He saw in the box something like a toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man,* and struck him on the side of his head. - Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, *when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously.* After recovering from his fright, he inquired why he could not obtain the plates; to which the spirit made reply, because you have not obeyed your orders. He then inquired when he could have them, and was answered thus: come one year from this day, and bring with you your oldest brother, and you shall have them. *This spirit, he said was the spirit of the prophet who wrote this book,* and who was sent to Joseph Smith, to make known these things to him."
Willard Chase: "but fearing some one might discover where he got it, he laid it down to place back the top stone, as he found it; and turning round, to his surprise there was no book in sight. *He again opened the box, and in it saw the book,* and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. *He saw in the box something like a toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man,* and struck him on the side of his head."
Benjamin Saunders: "I heard tell my Mother and Sister *how he procured the plates.* He said he was directed by an angel were it was. He went in the night to get the plates. When he took the plates *there was something down near the box that looked some like a toad that rose up into a [102] man* which forbid him to take the plates." from History of Joseph Smith
The narrator's voice sounds familiar... at any rate you should have all your qoutes narrated by the voice of Joshua Graham 😊
I dunnon where the stone box went, but I think I know where it came from:
NEAR the west Bank of the Coneaught River there
are the remains of an ancient fort. As I was walk
ing and forming various conjectures respecting the
character situation & numbers of those people who
far exceeded the present Indians in works of art and
inginuety, I hapned to tread on a flat stone. This
was at a small distance from the fort, <fe it lay on the
top of a great small mound of Earth exactly horizon
tal. The face of it had a singular appearance. I
discovered a number of characters, which appeared
to me to be letters, but so much effaced by the rav
ages of time, that I could not read the inscription.
With the assistance of a leaver I raised the stone.
But you may easily conjecture my astonishment
when I discovered that its ends and sides rested on
stones & that it was designed as a cover to an artificial Cave. I found by examining that its sides were
lined with stones built in a connical form with down, & that it was about eight feet deep. Deter
mined to investigate the design of this extraordinary
work of antiquity, I prepared myself with the neces
sary requisites for that purpose and descended to the
Bottom of the Cave. Observing one side to be per
pendicular nearly three feet from the bottom, I began
to inspect that part with accuracy. Here I noticed a
big flat stone fixed in the form of a doar. I immedi
ately tore it down and Lo, a cavity within the wall
presented itself it being about three feet in diamiter
from side to side and about two feet high. Within
this cavity I found an earthern Box with a cover which
shut it perfectly tite. The Box was two feet in length
one & half in breadth & one & three inches in diame
ter. My mind filled with awful sensations which
crowded fast upon me would hardly permit my hands
to remove this venerable deposit, but curiosity soon
gained the assendency & the box was taken & raised
to open it. When I had removed the Cover I found
that it contained twenty-eight rolls of parchment-&-
that when - - - appeared to be manuscrips written in
eligant hand with Roman Letters & in the Latin Lan
guage.
They were written on a variety of Subjects. But
the Roll which principally attracted my attention
contained a history of the author s life & that part
of America which extends along the great Lakes &
the waters of the Mississippy.
Extracts of the most interesting and important matters contined in this Roll I take the liberty to pub
lish.
Gentle Reader, tread lightly on the ashes of the
venerable dead. Thou must know that this Country
was once inhabited by great and powerful nations
considerably civilized & skilled in the arts of war, <t
that on ground where thou now treadeat many a
bloody Battle hath been fought, & heroes by thou
sands have been made to bite the dust.
I am intrigued to know where this story came from.
@@BodkinVanHorn-zs8np "The "manuscript story" of Reverend Solomon Spalding : or, "Manuscript found" : from a verbatim copy of the original now in the Library of Oberlin College, Ohio : including correspondence touching the manuscript, its preservation and transmission until it came into the hands of the publishers"
Fairytale
It never existed. Unless people want to use the same excuse that Joseph Smith used during his treasure digging career to explain why he never found anything. "It became slippery and slid deeper into the Earth." This line he used to use while treasure digging happens to be where the idea that talks about the same thing in the Book of Mormon comes from.
So Oliver Cowdery saw plates, box, and angels but he wasn’t moved enough spiritually to not leave the church, enter an argument that ultimately results in a law suit with the church? Yea right. Seems like those experiences would change a man forever.
Who is to say that Joseph Smith did not make the stone box. If there were golden plates he would not even been able to carry them by himself because of the weight of the plates.
The plates' weight was reported to be about 50 lbs by both Martin Harris and William Smith who both (in their words) "hefted" the plates. That together with the dimensions given 6" x 8" x 4" of hammered sheets works very well with the metallic alloy the Spaniards called "Tumbaga".
Tumbaga is an alloy of gold, copper and sometimes silver that after the workpiece has been completed, is then treated with an acid wash which removed the copper from the surface and shown of gold instead.
darlarider9243 do you realize Joseph was a farm worker in a time before mechanization? People who use their muscles all day are strong.
haahaa its not even good christian fan fiction !!!
The box exists. The golden plates exist. The church is true.
Bible states clearly humans cannot become angels. Moroni???
Read the testimony of Josephs' father in law Isaac Hale. You will now all you need to about this claptrap.
All a fake and fraud
Not true..Mr Rourke and Tattoo are watching the box as we speak 😂
I was told by the Missionaries that the plates were returned to heaven.
Yep, as was all physical evidence for the existence of the hundreds of thousands of Book of Mormon people who supposedly lived in the Americas for a thousand years. That's because you are supposed to live by faith, not by real things.
Yes, the plates were taken by their steward (Moroni) after the translation was complete. This episode is about the box that the plates were initially found in.
@@davidsnell2605 "the plates were taken by their steward (Moroni) after the translation was complete."
The dog ate Joseph's homework.
@@randyjordan5521 you're certainly entitled to that perspective :). Have a great day!
@@davidsnell2605 You can't prove a negative. No stone box=no golden plates=no Nephites or Lamanites.
Joseph Smith likely got his idea for his story of finding the plates in a stone box from the introduction to Solomon Spaulding's unpublished "Manuscript Found" circa 1815. Smith's and Spaulding's narratives are so similar that it's impossible to believe that Smith didn't borrow from it.
Nothing happened to it. It never existed.
25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that ALL MANKIND, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, MUST BE BORN AGAIN; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
26 And thus they BECOME NEW CREATURES; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
Great scripture! We don't all start out as children of God, do we?
@@fightingfortruth9806 Of course we do!
Show me in Scripture then. It is true we begin as the offspring of God, but we don't become children of God until we follow Jesus Christ.
@@fightingfortruth9806 We are ALL children of God the Father. We become children of God the Son (Jesus Christ) when we formally accept Him as our Saviour by following Him and being baptized.
The scriptures don't support that.
Matthew 5:
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 13:
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Luke 6
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
John 8
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 12
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God...
I could keep going.
Sadly, we do not have any of the object that came out of the stone box either. No gold plates, not interpreters (breastplate). What do we have? The seer stone JS used when searching for "treasures" that sadly were never found. So, there never was a stone box, never were gold plates, never were ancient interpreters. The "seer stone" is all we will ever have in terms of a relic relating to the comming forth of the ficticious BOM.
A lot of witnesses disagree with you on that point. Even enemies of Joseph.
@@loudogg73 Why then is the seer stone the only item the church has in it's possession?
What I stated is factual. We do not have anything but the seer stone.
Moroni took back the other items.
@@caseykaelin9430 Did he? I use to believe he did. But, in the case of the Book of Abraham, JS told us the papyri were written on by the hand of Abraham (they were not and they were not even from Abrahams time period) JS also said he translated the Egyptian papyri. He did not. The papyri have been translated and bear no resemblance to the BOA or JS description of the vignettes that are included.
So, we learn that JS lied about them being Abrahams writings on the papyri and his claim that he translated the papyri.
I can then deduce that he also lied about the other translation story about the BOM.
The 3rd example of he’s deception is his claim to have translated one of the Kinderhook plates that were later determined to be a hoax.
When our faith in God leads us to believe that he can send angels with gold plates and he can make word appear on rocks, it becomes easier for cunning individuals to manipulate us while claiming that god is doing miraculous thing that can never be disproven until we get to heaven and learn that the promises these cunning men have made were simply deception and lies.
If a prophet is caught in a lie or his prophecies do your come true we can know it is not of god. If we ignore the signs then we allow ourselves to be deceived.
@@ericredd5590 Wasn't the papyri in question burned in a fire? The small fragments he bought and that survived don't have anything to do with the Book of Abraham. The reports we have on it state that it was a long scroll or something like 20 ft plus.
Also, it doesn't sound like he thought much of the Kinderhook plates. Only comparing one symbol to one he knew. He seems to have lost interest after that.
Let’s look at the sources of that era, evidence points that the box is definitely located in Joseph Smiths imagination.
Religion is so much,,,,well lots of bologna: Fed to the weak minded.
The whereabouts of the stone box? Probably the same place as the golden plates as neither of them ever existed except in Joseph Smith's vivid imagination. Yep!