For some reason I have always over complicated the shrinkage and either came up short or gave to much on my center line mark... Let me tell you something Bill, after all this time and trying to learn from other electricans you explained it so easily that I'm mind blown and how easy you put it out to understand and how! Thank you for this content!!!
That’s how I was taught how to bend with that size emt. Not to date myself but we also bent Shepherds hooks when needed in certain situations. Nice old school video Bill👍 that’s how ya do it.
Bill love what u do , these videos are great refresher 4 us guys who have bell doing this 4 a few years & great 4 the younger guys who are just getting into the trade.
Thank you for your teaching sir. I have used rigid conduit with the machine bender and now I’m doing emt which is WAY easier to bend but also easy to mess up since it bends rather easy. I needed a refresher and learned more than what I expected as far as the way you se the bender instead of putting the conduit on the floor every time you bend you stand it up the whole time. Thanks again
Star Notch Arrow, Star Notch Arrow, Star Notch Arrow, Star Notch Arrow, Star Notch Arrow!!! I’m used to the standard method 45, 22.5, flip 22.5… I’m going to try this at work tonight!!! Union worker on school projects…
Mr. Bill from Sparky Channel, thanks you in abundance for your time and sharing of the craft. From a first year apprentice learning the game 1 lesson at a time. You definitely made this make sense to me. Thanks 🙏🏾💯👷🏾♂️
Question, On the bending part you did star, knotch, arrow for the bends, I know there is a reason for that, but what would have happened if you bent them all on the same bending point?
Great video and yes, I’m late to comment but I wasn’t an electrician back then. My question is…how do you determine that the shrinkage is 3/16 and not 1/4, or 3/8, or 1/2”. Please and thank you.
What is that mark you made on the ideal aluminum bender between the star and the notch? See 05:30. I think you have another video on that? Was that the center of a 60 degree for something?
Hey Bill, Super nice videos! Ive been watching your vids and reading all the comments, and im still curious if anyone could tell me how to use this method on a 15°/30° 3 point? What would the multiplier be? • 3 instead of 2.5? if so what would the shrink be on a 15°/30° push through 3 point? would it still be 1/8in the same as a 15/30 using the traditional method? my uglys book is otw in the mail, im hoping my questions can also be answered there.
Well done Weldon. I can tell you're a union brother, because you don't wear a tool pouch. All my workers wear a tool pouch, because I limit borrowing tools on a job as much as I can. The old school guy that I am.
Hi Thomas! Actually I am wearing a tool pouch in the video. It's a small one though because I figure that if I only need 6 tools why wear a pouch with 47 tools in it? I also have a very nice Veto tote filled with tools for back-up. Thanks!
@@SparkyChannel Tool pouches are faster to retrieve tools. I know where every tool is, by touch. I understand if you are going to bend conduit all day long, you don't need a full tool pouch. Does everyone on your work crew carry a tote? When I came up in the trade, a long time ago, half of the "electricians" had a screwdriver and a pair of lineman pliers in their back pocket. Then whey needed to borrow tools someone else's I wish you the best.
Nice video, love the push through method trick. Is there any way you can do a four-point saddle push through method? That would be an awesome video. Thanks. Also is there a book that you might be able to reference that has all the shrink calculations and multipliers and things like that.
I don't recommend the 4 pt saddle push-through method but here's a really good alternative method: IDEAL National Championship Pro 2nd Round Parallel EMT Bends: ua-cam.com/video/UJka4Z5LemY/v-deo.html For multipliers: How To Memorize EMT Multipliers, Shrink and Outer Marks of 3 Point Saddle Bends: ua-cam.com/video/_NWRVqWFtk0/v-deo.html
You can make a 1” 3 point saddle by using 22.5 ,11 ,11 bends. The multiplier is 5 instead of 2.5 and the shrinkage is 3/16” per 2 inches, instead of 1. Just a heads up
Inverse of the sine of the outside angle is how you find the multiplier for all bends. Sin(11°) is 0.1908 1/0.1908 = 5.24. Rounds down to 5. I know a lot you guys know this already but i just found out 😂
@@landonmiller9896 can't really explain it further than what I laid out. All I know is that the inverse of the sine of a particular degree is how we get all of our multipliers. I don't know why exactly that is. If you take the sine of 30 degrees you get 0.5. (Sin(30) = 0.5). You invert it(1÷0.5) and you get 2 as in the distance multiplier for 30 degree offset bends. I should look into the "why".
So, I think if you use 22.5° for the center bend, you should use 5.125 for 11.25° bends as your multiplier because he used 2.5 as his, which is pretty close to the multiplier of 22.5° (2.61). You can find the multiplier of any degree by 1/sin(X°). 1/sin(30)=2, 1/sin(45)=1.41, etc.
Just curious why star, Notch then arrow? What difference would be in your bends if you maintained all of them on one of them vs 3 different back of bends?
How would you decide when to put the mark on the arrow, notch or star ? Or can you use the same throughout all the marks ? I thought the middle mark is on the notch and the two outer marks are on the arrow
That's with the traditional method where the end bends both have the bender head pointing back at the center. With this push through method you keep the bender head the same direction all the way. Traditionally, both outer bends would use the arrow.
Hey brother I’m sorry to bother you but I was just wondering my local IBEW isn’t taking applications at the moment and even if they do I don’t know if I’ll be able to get in. Is there any other option for me to become a licensed electrician without the IBEW? Could I get the same sufficient schooling somewhere else without their apprenticeship?
Union is only one way bro, non union is still a valid option and pathway for sure. Perhaps the union offers maybe more supplementary courses and training throughout ur apprenticeship but non union still requires school and need the minimum hours requirement (at least in Ontario Canada) try non union for a bit at least until ur hall opens applications for a bit so you have a bit of experience
Nick and ElementFreedive are both correct. There is more than one way for sure. It's probably different from state to state but it's all about experience. However you can get the experience will work as long as you can prove it.
Can you please explain the difference between the star, the Notch, and the arrow. It seems complicated than there are three different ways to bend the same material for the same reasons. Call me a greenhorn but I'm still not clear on why there are so many different notches Stars etc for a measurement on a bender, can't they just keep it simple and have 1.2 bend the pipe that is a sure thing all the time or are there different techniques and styles to this but I am unaware of
Mr Sparky sir, I've noticed that some people bend a *four* point saddle with push-through, but they bend all the marks on the arrow. You don't do it that way ..are they doing it wrong? Does that way make it inaccurate?
You’d have to either do an additional cut on the front end of the pipe, or move your marks up to account for the saddle not being centered with the obstruction. It’s way easier to just bend 2 offsets opposite of each other with a pipe flip between them.
Actually they should be doing it all on center of bend like you would on an electric bender. If you do them all on the arrow it will shift your center point.
Not 100% clear. The first bend or star is meant to fit onto the left side and the cut side, arrow bend goes to the right side? Otherwise, wow, so great!
Go bend a 1” kick on rigid with the push through method and see how well it works lol on the ground you’ve got a lot more leverage for harder to bend pipe
I'll start using 2 1/2" as a standard as well, but I wonder where you got that from? I was never taught that. I just assumed we took however much inches the obstacle was and multiplied it by the multiplier of the biggest angle. so for instance, with the a 15-30-15 degree three-point, I would multiply by 2.0. I have always used the push-through method, and another guy asked me why I don't use the Star-notch-notch method? And I said I wasn't taught that way. Honestly didn't have a good answer, but he says it works for him. So I don't know. Great video though!
Here's the reason this "works"... ehh sort of, and how to fix it. The only thing you changed was bending the first bend on the star. It sort of works because bending on the arrow is kind of like the start of the bend, and you can see that bending a 22.5 on the star makes it... sort of the start of the bend. In other words, it's nearly the same bend in reverse. However, your final product was actually off. You can see that one bend mark is about 1/2" up further from the bend compared to the other bend mark. That means the star really isn't the right place for this. The star was off by about 1/2". To make this more accurate, make an exact 22.5 degree bend with a piece of scrap, then flip it around in your bender, and see where the mark lands. Wherever that is, that's your bender benchmark, for that bender and conduit. You can also find your bender benchmark the same way for 15 degree bends, for the 15-30-15 saddles.
I was reading in my conduit bending book from my apprenticeship and I read that for the push through method for a 3 bend saddle that (like you said) a benchmark should be made on the bender for the center of a 22.5 degree bend for the two outside bends, like you stated. And that also to find the distance to the outside bends from the center bend is to multiply the height of the obstruction by 2.6 and then also add the outside diameter of the conduit to this measurement.
@@lazarevic95 Yes, that's a somewhat more mathematical way as described in NJATC book for push through. What Sparky did was measure and mark the conduit exactly like a traditional bend. So Sparky used the traditional 2.5 multiplier. Also he opted for the 2nd and 3rd bend to face the first bend (which is fine in the traditional method). The only thing he did differently was make the first bend "backwards" (relative to the traditional method). The trick there is to find the proper place align the bender facing "backwards" with the first bend mark so that it makes the exact same bend. The star might be a fair approximation. If you have a lot of bends to make on a bender, you can figure out exactly where the proper place is and make your own benchmark on the bender. It'll be a different mark for a 22.5 (22.5 45 22.5) and for a 15 (15 30 15). If you read through the comments, other people have some other ideas on how to do it.
Your charting for center stage f bend, if you bend the conduit on center of bend for that shoe the bemds will always be spot on. You have to do it that way on large conduit in electric benders
Hi Bill from Sparky Channel
Love love love your videos
Learn something new every time
Thanks for such great demonstrations
My pleasure Jeff. I have a lot of fun making the videos. I particularly enjoy the emt bending videos. ⚡
Great video Bill! These keep my mind refreshed as i forget some things after not doing them for a while.
Sounds good, thanks!
Star, notch, arrow or SNAP was always an easy way for me to remember it. Great video as usual. Thanks Bill.
Excellent tip, thanks!
Where's the P?
@@Jaw-t3t P for Push-Through xD
For some reason I have always over complicated the shrinkage and either came up short or gave to much on my center line mark... Let me tell you something Bill, after all this time and trying to learn from other electricans you explained it so easily that I'm mind blown and how easy you put it out to understand and how! Thank you for this content!!!
I love getting that center line mark correct. It makes me happy if it comes out right on. LOL! Thanks so much! ⚡
@@SparkyChannel absolutely! Awesome job 👍
This video came down from the heavens! Thanks. The push through method is perfect when working with a short piece of pipe.
Did my first 3 bend saddle without any waste by watching this instructional video. Very clear and concise instructions. Thx
Excellent!
That’s how I was taught how to bend with that size emt. Not to date myself but we also bent Shepherds hooks when needed in certain situations. Nice old school video Bill👍 that’s how ya do it.
Great demo Wild Bill ... That band saw cut through that pipe like butter ...
Thanks Eddy! Oh yes, it sure does cut emt like butter. It's small and light too. ⚡
Thank you I'm going repeat this video over and over and I'm back in the field.
Sounds good Theo! ⚡
Bill love what u do , these videos are great refresher 4 us guys who have bell doing this 4 a few years & great 4 the younger guys who are just getting into the trade.
Excellent, thanks Joshua!
Awesome old timer!! Saved my run...
Nice to see this. I've always used the standard way of bending. Bend the center first then keeping the hook pointed to the center of the saddle.
That works great!
Nice breakdown and thanks for showing different brands of bender! You’re the man.
Thanks! Yes, I have quite a collection of them. ⚡
Thank you for your teaching sir. I have used rigid conduit with the machine bender and now I’m doing emt which is WAY easier to bend but also easy to mess up since it bends rather easy. I needed a refresher and learned more than what I expected as far as the way you se the bender instead of putting the conduit on the floor every time you bend you stand it up the whole time. Thanks again
Star Notch Arrow, Star Notch Arrow, Star Notch Arrow, Star Notch Arrow, Star Notch Arrow!!!
I’m used to the standard method 45, 22.5, flip 22.5…
I’m going to try this at work tonight!!!
Union worker on school projects…
Excellent!
Great video. I like how you showed the different benders to highlight the notch and star. You are a great instructor. Thank you for the video.
I appreciate that! Thanks!
Bill, thanks so much for this. SNA is easy to remember and easy to bend! Again thank you from an amateur.
It's a SNAp!
Mr. Bill from Sparky Channel, thanks you in abundance for your time and sharing of the craft. From a first year apprentice learning the game 1 lesson at a time. You definitely made this make sense to me. Thanks 🙏🏾💯👷🏾♂️
You are very welcome! Best wishes!
Nice demo. Extremely handy to have an idea how to do this when running wire outside the wall is your best option.
It's a straight bend without rotating the pipe or changing positions of the shoe/bender
Question, On the bending part you did star, knotch, arrow for the bends, I know there is a reason for that, but what would have happened if you bent them all on the same bending point?
that would make the 2 parts not even length to the center of the saddle
Can you make a video showing us how to make a 3 bend saddle on a cyclone bender?
Wow didnt know there's another way of bending 3-point saddle! I might replace the original method with this!
@Sparky Channel. Thanks Bill for another educational video.
Hope you and your family stay safe and well.
Happy Easter.
Thanks so much! You guys have a great Easter as well!
Thank You Your vid’s are always informative.
Glad you like them! Thanks Donald!
Appreciate the guide my friend. Nice guy, relaxed and eductional
Glad to help!
Great video and yes, I’m late to comment but I wasn’t an electrician back then.
My question is…how do you determine that the shrinkage is 3/16 and not 1/4, or 3/8, or 1/2”.
Please and thank you.
What is that mark you made on the ideal aluminum bender between the star and the notch? See 05:30. I think you have another video on that? Was that the center of a 60 degree for something?
Does it matter which way you start the star, notch , arrow?
Hey Bill, Super nice videos! Ive been watching your vids and reading all the comments, and im still curious if anyone could tell me how to use this method on a 15°/30° 3 point? What would the multiplier be? • 3 instead of 2.5? if so what would the shrink be on a 15°/30° push through 3 point? would it still be 1/8in the same as a 15/30 using the traditional method?
my uglys book is otw in the mail, im hoping my questions can also be answered there.
Hi Bill, will this method work with other degrees, like, 10:20 and 10°I do realize I will have to use a different number for shrink though.?
Yes it will. See my video: Do Cables Need to be Supported When Fishing Them Behind Walls? NEC 334.30 (B): ua-cam.com/video/TbAFRzp1PZ8/v-deo.html
Great method! Thank you, Master!
Thanks Gustavo!
Well done Weldon. I can tell you're a union brother, because you don't wear a tool pouch. All my workers wear a tool pouch, because I limit borrowing tools on a job as much as I can.
The old school guy that I am.
Hi Thomas! Actually I am wearing a tool pouch in the video. It's a small one though because I figure that if I only need 6 tools why wear a pouch with 47 tools in it? I also have a very nice Veto tote filled with tools for back-up. Thanks!
@@SparkyChannel Tool pouches are faster to retrieve tools. I know where every tool is, by touch.
I understand if you are going to bend conduit all day long, you don't need a full tool pouch.
Does everyone on your work crew carry a tote? When I came up in the trade, a long time ago, half of the "electricians" had a screwdriver and a pair of lineman pliers in their back pocket. Then whey needed to borrow tools someone else's
I wish you the best.
@@thomaswatkins6652 I always have some beater tools available for borrowing. LOL!
@@SparkyChannel I may take you up on that one day. Thanks.
Can I use the same method for 15 ,30,15
Nice video, love the push through method trick. Is there any way you can do a four-point saddle push through method? That would be an awesome video. Thanks. Also is there a book that you might be able to reference that has all the shrink calculations and multipliers and things like that.
I don't recommend the 4 pt saddle push-through method but here's a really good alternative method:
IDEAL National Championship Pro 2nd Round Parallel EMT Bends: ua-cam.com/video/UJka4Z5LemY/v-deo.html
For multipliers:
How To Memorize EMT Multipliers, Shrink and Outer Marks of 3 Point Saddle Bends: ua-cam.com/video/_NWRVqWFtk0/v-deo.html
Thanks Bill.
No problem, thanks!
Wish someone would post a good video of 3 point saddles with shallower angles such as 30/15 or 20/10
Here you go: How to Make a 15°, 30°, 15° Three Point Saddle Bend: ua-cam.com/video/P8D5St2mof4/v-deo.html
You can also use a multiplier of 3 instead of 2.6 and make all 3 bends on the notch. 🙂
Interesting, thanks!
You can make a 1” 3 point saddle by using 22.5 ,11 ,11 bends. The multiplier is 5 instead of 2.5 and the shrinkage is 3/16” per 2 inches, instead of 1. Just a heads up
Inverse of the sine of the outside angle is how you find the multiplier for all bends.
Sin(11°) is 0.1908
1/0.1908 = 5.24.
Rounds down to 5.
I know a lot you guys know this already but i just found out 😂
@@EmoDKTsuchiyacan you explain?
@@landonmiller9896 can't really explain it further than what I laid out. All I know is that the inverse of the sine of a particular degree is how we get all of our multipliers. I don't know why exactly that is.
If you take the sine of 30 degrees you get 0.5. (Sin(30) = 0.5). You invert it(1÷0.5) and you get 2 as in the distance multiplier for 30 degree offset bends.
I should look into the "why".
Does the math stay the same if you are using your center of bend for 22.5 on your hand bender
So, I think if you use 22.5° for the center bend, you should use 5.125 for 11.25° bends as your multiplier because he used 2.5 as his, which is pretty close to the multiplier of 22.5° (2.61).
You can find the multiplier of any degree by 1/sin(X°). 1/sin(30)=2, 1/sin(45)=1.41, etc.
I don't think this method works for 22.5 center bend. Only for the 45.
Just curious why star, Notch then arrow? What difference would be in your bends if you maintained all of them on one of them vs 3 different back of bends?
How would you decide when to put the mark on the arrow, notch or star ? Or can you use the same throughout all the marks ? I thought the middle mark is on the notch and the two outer marks are on the arrow
That's with the traditional method where the end bends both have the bender head pointing back at the center. With this push through method you keep the bender head the same direction all the way. Traditionally, both outer bends would use the arrow.
So for the push through method, the multiplier will always be 2.5 for the outer marks?
For Sparky's method, yes. However, Sparky's method isn't precise and you can see his bend was actually off. The star point made that side too short.
Hey brother I’m sorry to bother you but I was just wondering my local IBEW isn’t taking applications at the moment and even if they do I don’t know if I’ll be able to get in. Is there any other option for me to become a licensed electrician without the IBEW? Could I get the same sufficient schooling somewhere else without their apprenticeship?
Union is only one way bro, non union is still a valid option and pathway for sure. Perhaps the union offers maybe more supplementary courses and training throughout ur apprenticeship but non union still requires school and need the minimum hours requirement (at least in Ontario Canada) try non union for a bit at least until ur hall opens applications for a bit so you have a bit of experience
Nick and ElementFreedive are both correct. There is more than one way for sure. It's probably different from state to state but it's all about experience. However you can get the experience will work as long as you can prove it.
Thank you!
Welcome!
Can you please explain the difference between the star, the Notch, and the arrow. It seems complicated than there are three different ways to bend the same material for the same reasons. Call me a greenhorn but I'm still not clear on why there are so many different notches Stars etc for a measurement on a bender, can't they just keep it simple and have 1.2 bend the pipe that is a sure thing all the time or are there different techniques and styles to this but I am unaware of
Awesome video thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
So you can upload a video to fix a HOT/GROUND reversed receptacle on your channel.
It's on my list.
Can I always use 2 1/2” for my putter marks?
Putter marks?
@@SparkyChannel he meant outer marks. Like if you have a different sized pipe, does the multiplier change?
I was taught to bend all on the notches and you don’t have to calculate shrinkage it looks good to me but I’m curious if anyone else does this
Interesting can i do 15,30,15 using all notches
Mr Sparky sir, I've noticed that some people bend a *four* point saddle with push-through, but they bend all the marks on the arrow. You don't do it that way
..are they doing it wrong? Does that way make it inaccurate?
You’d have to either do an additional cut on the front end of the pipe, or move your marks up to account for the saddle not being centered with the obstruction. It’s way easier to just bend 2 offsets opposite of each other with a pipe flip between them.
@@ActingLikeABoss I see, that makes sense. Doing it all in one direction shifts the whole saddle over a bit.
Actually they should be doing it all on center of bend like you would on an electric bender. If you do them all on the arrow it will shift your center point.
When are you going to do PVC conduit
🤩🍻🍺😊
It's on my list. Cheers with beers! ⚡
Thank you sir
No problem, thanks!
Not 100% clear. The first bend or star is meant to fit onto the left side and the cut side, arrow bend goes to the right side? Otherwise, wow, so great!
How many employees do u have Bill? I thinking about hiring a couple guys.
None right now. 😊😊😊 Best wishes!
Nice
Thanks Rick!
Why not use the push through for everything all the time ? When would non push through be better ?
Never. Not sure why they even teach the other technique.
The push through method is superior in every way.
Go bend a 1” kick on rigid with the push through method and see how well it works lol on the ground you’ve got a lot more leverage for harder to bend pipe
the poor guy trying to run that PVC is going to hate you...
Hi Ken! Who is running PVC?
@@SparkyChannel whoever is putting in that stick of 2" next to the ABS you put the saddle over.
@@kenbrown2808 Oh. LOL!
LOL - With all the measurement and figuring, I thought maybe you were going to cut it to length before bending it, too!
That would have been cool, maybe next time! ⚡
I didnt know a star could be used that way.
Yep.
Hey sparky line up your one hole straps
Thanks!
I'll start using 2 1/2" as a standard as well, but I wonder where you got that from? I was never taught that. I just assumed we took however much inches the obstacle was and multiplied it by the multiplier of the biggest angle. so for instance, with the a 15-30-15 degree three-point, I would multiply by 2.0. I have always used the push-through method, and another guy asked me why I don't use the Star-notch-notch method? And I said I wasn't taught that way. Honestly didn't have a good answer, but he says it works for him. So I don't know. Great video though!
2.0 multiplier for 30 degrees is for offsets (and 4 point saddles), not 3-point saddles.
I'll bet this would be a head scratcher if I only had a metric tape measure.
I do understand.
Still kicking sir bill huh, nice demo itz informative...
Yeah, still kickin'! LOL! Thanks! ⚡
Here's the reason this "works"... ehh sort of, and how to fix it. The only thing you changed was bending the first bend on the star. It sort of works because bending on the arrow is kind of like the start of the bend, and you can see that bending a 22.5 on the star makes it... sort of the start of the bend. In other words, it's nearly the same bend in reverse. However, your final product was actually off. You can see that one bend mark is about 1/2" up further from the bend compared to the other bend mark. That means the star really isn't the right place for this. The star was off by about 1/2". To make this more accurate, make an exact 22.5 degree bend with a piece of scrap, then flip it around in your bender, and see where the mark lands. Wherever that is, that's your bender benchmark, for that bender and conduit. You can also find your bender benchmark the same way for 15 degree bends, for the 15-30-15 saddles.
I was reading in my conduit bending book from my apprenticeship and I read that for the push through method for a 3 bend saddle that (like you said) a benchmark should be made on the bender for the center of a 22.5 degree bend for the two outside bends, like you stated. And that also to find the distance to the outside bends from the center bend is to multiply the height of the obstruction by 2.6 and then also add the outside diameter of the conduit to this measurement.
@@lazarevic95 Yes, that's a somewhat more mathematical way as described in NJATC book for push through. What Sparky did was measure and mark the conduit exactly like a traditional bend. So Sparky used the traditional 2.5 multiplier. Also he opted for the 2nd and 3rd bend to face the first bend (which is fine in the traditional method). The only thing he did differently was make the first bend "backwards" (relative to the traditional method). The trick there is to find the proper place align the bender facing "backwards" with the first bend mark so that it makes the exact same bend. The star might be a fair approximation. If you have a lot of bends to make on a bender, you can figure out exactly where the proper place is and make your own benchmark on the bender. It'll be a different mark for a 22.5 (22.5 45 22.5) and for a 15 (15 30 15). If you read through the comments, other people have some other ideas on how to do it.
@@CoolHandLouis Okay I understand what you're saying. Thanks for the info!
Your charting for center stage f bend, if you bend the conduit on center of bend for that shoe the bemds will always be spot on. You have to do it that way on large conduit in electric benders
That bend was dead on. What are you looking at?
👍💯
😊
If I told you that was a magic trick, would everyone know I was an amateur?
Yeah, I think so. :)
Bill!
Happy Easter Bryan!
Happy Easter 🐣
3weysuiche
Here you go: How To Wire a 3-Way Switch System: ua-cam.com/video/cOFKnAGOPg4/v-deo.html