I miss when blood angels had their own tactical squad. Despite the proportion issue with firstborn the way they’re built was superior. Before we used to be able to swap out entire chest pieces and use weapons from other space marine kits like devastators, now with the new way primaris are made have none of that conversion/flexability
That was the first GW thing I brought in 2018 since quitting in mid 90s. I was amazed how detailed they were and the endless options you could build from that kit. On ebay that kit fetches well over £100 now!
I think the whole Primaris/First Born lore thing is completely bonkers. They should have just replaced the old kits with newer, larger, fresher designs. And it's not too late. They could easily just discontinue all the First Born kits/units, merge their rules with their "Primaris" equivalents or make new equivalents, and then retcon the entire lore.
I was thinking the same thing. Not every part of a model needs corresponding lore explanation. Just make them bigger. If you absolutely NEED lore explanation, then just say new armor was created lol.
100% it was a shitshow, compare it to chaos SM, they got new units and a larger scale but retainted the Rhino/pred and all of thier old units and the players loved it. In the lore they mentioned primaris are larger as that matches the table models but there is no answer to why CSM are suddenly as large as primaris and Cadians are now the size of firstborns lol the lore is totally scuffed.
@@MyAlessandro1995 i have been playing warhammer games since the late 80s. this is not remotely true. they take their time buying the new kits. but almost everyone i have ever met has updated thier marines and other models to the new kit.
GW has ditched the "Primaris" word from the range, as it was just a ploy to sell both old and new SM. Now that they no longer produce the firstborn and have gotten rid of most of their stock, it's safe for them to just have SM instead of having that separation. If you look at the 10th edition codex, you'll see that it says "Intercessors" and not "Primaris Intercessors", having removed it from all units and keywords.
On one hand I like it, on the other it feels weird to have an army of objectively taller "space marines" when stacked up next to chaos. Now it just feels like Chaos are perpetually out of date, instead of highlighting that they're an inferior (but not by much) version of astartes.
@@clinch4402 Until they release the next codex and let out a new range that will be taller than the actual ones. I'm wondering if they will come out with some "oh, Fabius has come with an idea..." and then repeat the same process. Who knows. I'm already out, I'll watch the developments with my pop corn on the side 😎
Just remember, unless you are a serious tournement player, none of this matters. I just bought some old tactical squad off ebay and 5th edition rulebook and guess what nothing is stopping me from playing it. Nothing.
I hope they make a new firstborn MK VII kit. The space marine heroes were absolutely gorgeous, honestly my favorite standard marine models. I’m sad the new heroes are primaris, literally look the same as normal kits. The firstborn heroes are good scale compared to primaris imo, just slightly shorter, while being noticeable larger than (most) regular human models.
I've just ended up placing my old chaos/tactical marines directly onto a 32mm base, and the height is close enough to Primaris. What will be confusing is if they retire the first born tanks, considering chaos still use them.
It would not shock me to see a new rhino kit down the road. It would be an earthquake in the hobby, I'm sure, but its such a big part of the range...it would probably sell well just because so many armies use it. And once you have the rhino, you can make all the other vehicles very quickly.
The scale increase was a good move, but I still don't like or use "Primaris" I like the older armour models better, they have character, will probably just end up using Horus Heresy models as proxy's if I ever need to expand my army once the last Firstborn kits is retired. As for a new sized tactical or devastator squad I don't think it will happen, Space Marines are the poster boy starter faction, having a variety of weapon options will probably be thought of as to confusing for new players, hence the more fixed loadouts of the Primaris releases.
As someone who got in part way through 8th, I find the primaris design philosophy is incredibly hit or miss. The improvements just seem to be implementing parts of the Firstborn design philosophy while their bigger misses seem to be their attempts at implementating aspects original to Primaris.
Great vid! Good use of the visuals. As a FB enjoyer, I will say the direction is headed in the right direction for Primaris....the smooth bubble power pack is still a problem for me but that seems to be a me thing lol.... There are things I like about both the FB kits and the Primaris kits. What I don't like, is the narrative feel of the Primaris, on the whole, they seem storm trooperish and I think their unit specialization works hard against the idea of scarcity and small chapter size. In a GW article leading up to 10th they mention how the FB 'Care for each greave as a relic' and the Primaris treat their war gear in a much more utilitarian fashion.....I just really hated that. I feel they continue to work against the vibe of 40k....of course I can head canon that but still I think that informs how the design team feels about it. Oh well, change happens, and the direction is improving, so hopefully it continues :)
I think currently there’s not much incentive for GW to do that until sisters of battle/silence have a replacement for rhinos and chaos have a replacement for rhinos/predators/vindicators.
@mogwaiman6048 they are the exact same kit, only difference is the chaos vehicle upgrade sprue, every vehicle they have removed were space marine only vehicles. They will not remove the ones shared between the ranges.
The silly thing is that I think they could have done a full range “scale-up” and made money without messing the community around with the Primaris thing. People are always starting new armies, I think they are/were scared that the OG people in the community would just stop buying their models
i will buy no more marines. I did not actually play them. but i enjoyed collecting them and built a full 1000 man chapter. which i am still painting on. i give my new marines i get in bundle boxes to my son. it helps him expand his army and i get the models i want with the terrain.
I think the best way forward is to ditch all the first born kits and give intercessors the same load out options as tactical squads - e.g. special weapon, heavy weapon. Updated landraider kit (or assault ramp repulsor variant), replacement whirlwind or thunderfire cannon and a new flyer, marines will be sorted then 😁
Get a 3d printer and you can find all sorts of good firstborn kits that match the new 30k plastics. If i ever started a space marine army id have a whole army of firstborn with "counts as" units for any primaris squads i would need.
they could just release an upgrade sprue for intercessors to make them into tactical load outs / devastator load outs .. just do a weapons sprue upgrade / helmet to allow a special weapon / heavy weapon into a 10man inty squad and you can replace the tacs ./.. 6 heavy weapons in a kit then can make a dev squad out of primaris as well ..
Just saw this video and I enjoyed it. I do love Primaris Marines, but I also do love the 30k Firstborn marines. I did find the original 40k sculpts a bit "derpy" but 30k is firstborn marines done very well. A small "nitpick" if you don't mind lol When you showed the images of firstborn still in 40k, you showed a pic of Grimaldus of the Black Templars. He actually is Primaris now, alongside Helbrect and The Emperor's Champion. All 3 of them are all Primaris now. Back when GW announced the new versions of the models, they said in that announcement page, that all 3 have crossed the Rubicon Primaris. They kept the old helmets but they are canonically Primaris now.
Everyone's lore is theirs to enjoy on their own, and your dudes are your dudes. If you want to run Firstborn go for it, there isn't a lot of support going forward, but the horus heresy models might provide some solid alternatives. Helmet swaps are also a good option, you can run whichever tacticus models in the current supported squads and run mark 7 helmets. Cool video, thanks for sharing.
I do like the terminators, scouts, and a lot of the characters. My main issue with a lot of the primaris/40k kits is I feel they’re made to minimize 3rd party bits/copyright, but my issue is the sprue design not necessarily the way they look if that makes sense, especially the recent stuff. Which is why I buy more 30k stuff but I do still pick up 40K kits. I liked the new jump intercessor Captain IMO they’re going to do Horus heresy/historical ranges. So they’re going to regulate a lot of “first born” stuff to older eras
There's a few interesting factors at play, and great video, enjoyed it a lot. 1) Size of models. Nearly everyone is happier the recent models are bigger. Having Space Marines the same size as human guard doesn't fit the lore, or look impressive on the table. The thing GW needs to keep an eye on is not making everything always bigger, as otherwise we're gonna be playing on tennis courts in 10 years time. 2) Primaris design vs Firstborn marine design. Very subjective, but most 40k fans I think prefer the newer sculpts which are being more faithful to the established and loved space marine aesthetic and mix of armour marks, chapter heraldry and so on is what makes space marines interesting. 3) Lore. The introduction of Primaris, their in-universe impact and their new technology are the antithesis of a stagnating and dying Imperium of Man. A necessary change to drive product line expansion, but it is at odds with the whole point of 40k (in my opinion). A clumsy way of going about changing the space marine product range, but i think the return to space marine DNA in recent years is only a good thing. Kind of explains why Horus Heresy has also been able to be so popular. 4) Logistics. So much of GW's product range is space marines, to the point it can't keep up with itself, but also other factions lose out on updates and getting to a level of parity with space marine players. On the flip side, there's only so many space marines one person needs before you get oversaturated with the same models.
The BS with the Primaris is why I quit playing back in early 8th ed. Finding someone to buy my 5Kish points of firstborn Blood Angels is going to be a pain.
Just commenting my thoughts on if they release the MKVII armour, - With the Horus heresy rolling in the old armour marks, I would imagine they’d save the iconic space marine mark until last (MkVii) - The MkVii (Aquila) came out towards the end of the Horus heresy as the scientists on Mars developing it fled to Terra, - It would be a fitting end to the Horus heresy edition to release them, - Would think they’d create the models for them following the same pattern as armour mark is compatible with the upgrade weapons and shares the same posing, Those are my hopes at least,
I will say, I don't hate the Primaris MODELS in themselves, but I really do dislike the range philosophy of having each squad type be ludicrously specialized as if they were Eldar Aspect Warriors. I liked the *relative* simplicity and flexibility that the basic marines had, and then you could add more specialized variants for the Chapter-specific Codices. I've always thought, for example, that the Reivers should have been a Raven Guard thing, the Centurions a Imperial Fists thing, Infernus a Salamanders thing, etc. Maybe with some overlap. Also, the open-top vehicles DO look very silly.
I cant wait for Grey Knights refresh. I proxy my horus heresy as a 40k army. Happy they keep the tactical squad in the datasheet, ust need to change the bases. We lost the assault squad with jumpacks in 10th taugh.
I think the way they did the sternguard could work for other units, like devastators and tacticals. The primaris never really bothered me other than the cost of replacing all my firstborn, but now that I have loads of them and that cost is behind me, I guess I'm more accepting, :)
My Blood Angels collection includes models from 1st and 2nd edition. What a difference in scale! I have several squads of the old metal Terminators. These look tiny compared to the current Primaris Marines. Of course I have replaced them with the plastics. I finished painting them about 6 months before the new 10th edition Terminators came out. Sigh. I won't be upsizing my terminators again. One minor observation. The 32mm bases in current use are taller than the 25mm bases Space Marines were sold with previously. The height difference is a little exaggerated as a result.
dude, you made me go and buy a 10 man tac squad of 2014 BA cause you told me they are OOP and super hard to find. lol i found them bundled with a razorback for 40 bucks.
I am building my first SM army in 10th edition, and i wanted to only use the old forstborne models i have lying around from other boxes. And it struck me how hard it was to build a functional 1000 pts infantery army. The firstborne captain or luitenant is pretty much the only hero choice you have, and then i filled the rest with vanguard veterans, tyrannic war veterans, devestator squads and scouts
Just use firstborn as primaris units. Hellblasters - full squads of plasma guns Infernus - full squads of flamers Intercessors- tactical squads with all boltguns Assault intercessors - chainswords and bolt pistols Jump intercessors - assault squads with chainswords Desolators- full missile launcher squads Outriders- bike squads Primaris atv- attack bike Redemptor- dreadnought with assault cannon or plasma cannon and heavy flamer fist Ballistus- lascannon and missile dreadnought
Sure, couts-as/proxy is fine, but my point was to try to build a fully firstborne army, models and rules, in spite of the primaris posterboys. And it made me sad to realize how much the army index shits on the firstborne to sell new kits. I will probably only play it once or twice and then go back to my scratch-bashed mek-ork army that never becoms obsolete because the models are made of literal trash.
I finished my firstborn army of 20+ years a few years ago. Dont play only collect, but honestly i would probably go into collecting primaris or even another faction, but from what i have seen everything is very monopose, and prices are just crazy now.
Overall i like the primaris model range. There are some im not a fan of like inceptors and the impulsor but that was true of the firstborns. Main thing i dont like is the lore change. They could have just rescaled and called all the new models a step forward in technology and a new codex issued by guilliman explaining the more specialised nature
I like the 9th edition primaris marines in the starter set. I didn’t like the 8th ones so much tbh. I like the death watch minis a lot. Tbh they should’ve just scaled them up and didn’t really make the primaris thing. I like the heroes marines and 30k marines a lot. I do like some of it primaris kits though.
I had this concern with how they treated Slaaneshi Chaos Space Marines as well, where they are attempting to demote and downplay the existence event though there is the history of Emperors Children turn to Chaos in books and such, just feels like they give She Who Thirsts the curtain pull whenever the popularity rises more, in exchange for something "family friendly" like a wannabe dark mechanicus daemonhead
I really wish the primaris bullshit didn't exist, and that these new models were just space marines with new armor, weapons, vehicles, tech and combat doctrins. That way it wouldn't mess up the lore, but it was not to be 😓
I think overall primaris are prettier, tho I do love grungy aesthetic of squat marines and I think it was a big miss not to implement this aspects of design to primaris, considering how big of a deal relics of the old time is in 40k. Maybe giving primaria more and more customization options is a good thing to return a flavour of old marines yet making them look actually good for someone not familiar with 40k in the first place. You don't see these weird screwed up proportiona of sm models in old art so you shouldn't see it in models
My theory is that GW wanted to do a complete scale change but given the backlash of Warhammer going to AoS and people not being able to play with their current models to a degree, they chose to gradually phases the OG models out and added Primaris to cannon as a way of explaining why the two different scales were in the same army
If l knew in 8th ed (started collecting in the end of 7th) that my WS would be hone in 9 years l wouldn't have invested 6 years in to buying, building and painting my army.
@@wyrdwulf999 *shrugs* it’s just a theory. A game theory. I saw pictures of people burning their Warhammer armies and paired with the fact that primaris came out of nowhere with mixed armies looking daft… doesn’t seem that far fetched to me
I've had a foot in WH since about 2006 but never got into the hobby mostly the books, games and that. The DA announcements in December is what got me to cave xD I loved the look of all the new scales and designs, I never had the nostalgia of the old stuff and they weren't my cuppa tea. But it's probably a common theme for new players
Beside the fact that Primaris Marines were probably made to cover some Black Library "New lore"," bigger and better Space Marines. I really don't see why they just didn't say, Ok,10,000 year later New Armour types Equiment, Etc. and just upscale the New Models. I mean when you thinnk about it. Just what are they planning for the first born? Is the lore going to be well, just like the Thunder Warriors, The First Born have to be done way with? I really don't get it. It's like, well,. we did it once so,. let's do it again kinda thing. I find that, Well,. Kinda stupid. If you go that route then in 10 years there's going to be a 3rd generation Space Marine with a Anti coruption Gene and they're going to be even bigger and better. Face it the whole thing is really, WG is just a greedy company that keeps trying to find new ways/ reasons for people to spend more money on their products. When in fact, they can't even flech out the newer Core rule books and codices with out erratas even before they bring the next one out. The latest being goiing from 9th ed. to 10th.
GW being GW had a good thing and soiled it to try and make money. GW stated they are not replacing first born when Primaris first came out (you can still find the quote in the Warhammer Community site I believe), obviously that was a lie. The removal of the BA tacticals and other firstborn kits made it obvious they are getting phased out. Personally I don't give a toss about modern GW or Primaris, they have become a terrible company over the years and I think Primaris lore is an extremely shallow excuse to try and increase sales. This crap about Firstborns can't ride in Primaris tanks etc was a total shitshow, the better way was slow upscales like with the chaos space marines slowly getting larger and more new units, almost nobody complains about that. The Orks and Eldar that just got new, larger scale kits as well saw little complaints although the Ork boys were a bit of a fail as they are now mono-pose and when you have a "horde army" that's monopose it doesn't look as good, also the unit loadout options don't quite work. Firstborn kits are easier to build, look great, and STILL have more chapter unique kits (Sapcewolves longfangs, BA Death Company, Sanguinary Guard to name a few) and are now cheap on ebay, it's a win-win for me. The reason primaris get the MK7 helmets is because they are a better design and even GW has to admit they are more iconic then the primaris ones. GW is purely a profit-seeking entity and they are shameless about it, they recently released the older, smaller firstborns in the Macragge boxset re-release at a higher price then the original and with less components, this "collectors kit" is largely useless in the modern game but they knew it would make money, they act like ebay scalpers with their own products.
I prefer the Firstborn aesthetic and size. I find the Primaris too big. I wasn’t concerned about “True Scale”, GW could have just changed the lore or just made the few Guard minis they had smaller. I’m thankful for the Horus Heresy range at the moment and eBay.
The new mk6 and 3s are perfect scale compared to primaris lore wise I think. Just wish primaris was never a thing, it was just a new armour mark and the were the height of the new 6s and 3s... then we would have all the weak bs lore about cawl and guillimans plan blah blah blah.
6:28 I disagree with the design getting better. Scale 100% but design. it's just picking bits from the fitst born range, then just discarding the rest. Like all the variations in helmets and armour is gone to the point. it's all just harmoginised and same looking outside of charaters and revamped first born kits like the sternguard. Like all the flavour and extra customisation is gone from the kits. 14:04 that's because they are chapter specific. It's good that they are improving but that doesn't excuse how mid the overall range has been. I collect primaris, but it isn't that fun when most of the flavour of the model comes from the gun its holding if it isn't designed to be something special
My army 4 squads of bikes, two command biker squads, 6 land speeders , 13 attack bikes, 2 khans, 2stormseers, 1 chaplain, 1 tech marine all on bikes. 20 sniper scouts. Started building them at the end of 7th ed. Finished at the end of 9th. And then 10th codex marines invalidated my army. I don't like how primaris look like. The new speeders are tank sized and look stupid , the quad is horrible , the outriders and outrider champ are meh in general and comparing to classic white scar bikers they are just bland . The heros , aside for the chaplain, don't exist . The sniper scouts are gone too. I would say, l am one of those people who spend a ton of time and money on their army and now are unhappy , because the army is gone. Also the whole , so just play HH, doesn't work . hh players are like historical players they dont want to see any mk7 etc armour, the w40k armies don't really translate in to HH either. A pure bike army of WS in HH doesn't use regular bikes. It uses jetbikes and FW landspeeders
I will say to be fair your army is more likely to be accepted by a horus heresy group, MK VII was used at the siege of terra and the white scars were there. Not to mention you can use the spatha bike profiles for everything.
I do not play Primaris and I do not like them (neither the dumb as shit lore, nor the designs that look as if some pubescents have designed them to compensate something). I do not play in tournaments, so I will take firstborn models to the field and use the rules of Primaris units for them which are similar. Luckily I am in the position to have enough money to afford even overpriced oop figures. So GW can do whatever they want, I do not care very much! I am in the hobby since 1990 and always went with the figures and rule sets I liked the most and I do not intend to do otherwise in the future. Just my 2 cents!
It's not really right to say that the "Primaris design philosophy looks good now", because it's really just a quick rehash of what the firstborn already brought to the table save for proportions. Gravis looks ugly, anti-grav tanks are still stupid, the jorts of the phobos armour are hideous, and the new guns, like the desolation squad launchers.... yeah. Primaris brought no in-lore "cool stuff" to the space marines to appreciate. But I enjoy your vids and takes!
The modular armour is cool as hell, gravis is cool, phobos looks infinitely better than scout armour. The anti grav tanks are fine the repulsor especially. You just dont want to let go of your blackberry curve and wont admit the obvious advancements of anything new.
@dancallan7907 'advancements of anything new' used to be something that literally wasn't a thing in 40k. 'Forget the promise of progress' etc. Primaris are fine with me all the same, just another mark of armour and marine basically but yeah grav tanks are not my fav aesthetic for the Imperium.
@dancallan7907 What modular armour? First born had that with all the different marks that could be bashed together now there's only tacticus and all tacticus looks the same unless it's an old character who has been made into a primaris but gets to keep most of their old armour.
More detail doesn't make something good. It wasn't that they were lacking detail, it was that the generic space soldier design language of all varieties of Primaris and their vehicles etc is absolute gutter trash.
primaris bolters look soo ugly . they are comically large and cover the entire upper half of the marine . the hekmet design is and weird kneeguards are goofy as hell
I was not happy about the change in scale. Neither were my friends. You keep saying most people were happy but I think it was mostly four year olds who were happy about the duplofication of 40k.
I bet if you propped them up on some cork or something like that and painted them well 90% of people wouldn’t notice or care if you used firstborn. I recently lost a bunch of models due to edition change. My big mek either kustom force field and grot tanks z. LEGENDS. All my friends expensive dark vengeance autogun cultists, NO LONGER LEGAL lol
Bin them all they are clapped and shit. They should have gone at the start of 8th with the refresh. Drip taking them away just annoys both sides and pleases no one. They should have ripped the bandade off in one go. I dont want to see any of these units in 11th. Its thankfully looking like there wont be any upscaled midget marine or new intercessor kit with tactical loadout. They have clearly gone in another direction with dedicated units for every roll. A tactical intersessor squad now would be weird.
I liked the first born, but they look laughably unproportional compared to the primaris. If both would have been released at the same time I doubt people would have picked firstborn. It is just nostalgia for many people that they might prefer the old ones. At least that is my humble opinion. Having their financial/time investment getting devalued by GW is of course very unfortunate. But the firstborn looked like old school toys that probably would have a harder and harder time to attract new customers.
I miss when blood angels had their own tactical squad. Despite the proportion issue with firstborn the way they’re built was superior. Before we used to be able to swap out entire chest pieces and use weapons from other space marine kits like devastators, now with the new way primaris are made have none of that conversion/flexability
That was the first GW thing I brought in 2018 since quitting in mid 90s. I was amazed how detailed they were and the endless options you could build from that kit. On ebay that kit fetches well over £100 now!
Buy them from china
i love the firstborn design in everything so much more, the only thing primaris have is that they are bigger. i really dont like the grav tanks :(
100% agreed!!!
I play OPR with firstborn or 3D printed firstborn truescaled.
I think the whole Primaris/First Born lore thing is completely bonkers. They should have just replaced the old kits with newer, larger, fresher designs. And it's not too late. They could easily just discontinue all the First Born kits/units, merge their rules with their "Primaris" equivalents or make new equivalents, and then retcon the entire lore.
I was thinking the same thing. Not every part of a model needs corresponding lore explanation. Just make them bigger. If you absolutely NEED lore explanation, then just say new armor was created lol.
Nobody would have bought them, they would re base them and add some cork under the marine to make them taller
100% it was a shitshow, compare it to chaos SM, they got new units and a larger scale but retainted the Rhino/pred and all of thier old units and the players loved it. In the lore they mentioned primaris are larger as that matches the table models but there is no answer to why CSM are suddenly as large as primaris and Cadians are now the size of firstborns lol the lore is totally scuffed.
@@GloriousGrunt I totally agree. Terminators look much the same as they did in early 90s - just bigger.
@@MyAlessandro1995 i have been playing warhammer games since the late 80s. this is not remotely true. they take their time buying the new kits. but almost everyone i have ever met has updated thier marines and other models to the new kit.
Box naught still imo the best looking dreadnaught
GW has ditched the "Primaris" word from the range, as it was just a ploy to sell both old and new SM. Now that they no longer produce the firstborn and have gotten rid of most of their stock, it's safe for them to just have SM instead of having that separation. If you look at the 10th edition codex, you'll see that it says "Intercessors" and not "Primaris Intercessors", having removed it from all units and keywords.
On one hand I like it, on the other it feels weird to have an army of objectively taller "space marines" when stacked up next to chaos. Now it just feels like Chaos are perpetually out of date, instead of highlighting that they're an inferior (but not by much) version of astartes.
@@clinch4402 Until they release the next codex and let out a new range that will be taller than the actual ones. I'm wondering if they will come out with some "oh, Fabius has come with an idea..." and then repeat the same process. Who knows. I'm already out, I'll watch the developments with my pop corn on the side 😎
The whole primaris thing is dumb
Proving it as the cash grab that it actually was, and GW as the liars we knew they were.
True about the Primaris keyword, but now it's just hidden in the datasheet under phobos/tacticus/gravis instead.
Im glad i still have a lot of the firstborn models and vehicles still to build and paint.
Same, love my Land Speeder Storm and scouts.
I have played Chaos for 20 years. I refuse to replace most of my models.
Also, you sound remarkably like Gavin Free.
GW killing off the old guard really wronged me, so much so that i instantly quit buying from them
Imperial guard? Yea right after they released an upgrade kit for them too that was a WILD greedy move
Just remember, unless you are a serious tournement player, none of this matters. I just bought some old tactical squad off ebay and 5th edition rulebook and guess what nothing is stopping me from playing it. Nothing.
this is the way 😎🤙
100% correct. i play 2nd 4th and 9th with my friends.
I hope they make a new firstborn MK VII kit. The space marine heroes were absolutely gorgeous, honestly my favorite standard marine models. I’m sad the new heroes are primaris, literally look the same as normal kits.
The firstborn heroes are good scale compared to primaris imo, just slightly shorter, while being noticeable larger than (most) regular human models.
Couldn't agree more
It’s a shame GW’s retired the DA Company Vets/Fallen kit.
They’re still on sale at 3rd Party stores and online. Get them before now before they’re all gone.
Size wasn't that much of an issue as proportions. I personally like post 2014 characters, they look decent.
A Heroes sized Mk7 kit would sell I think.
I've just ended up placing my old chaos/tactical marines directly onto a 32mm base, and the height is close enough to Primaris. What will be confusing is if they retire the first born tanks, considering chaos still use them.
It would not shock me to see a new rhino kit down the road. It would be an earthquake in the hobby, I'm sure, but its such a big part of the range...it would probably sell well just because so many armies use it. And once you have the rhino, you can make all the other vehicles very quickly.
I have 2nd edition and 3rd edition marines, to me some of coolest models GW made
The scale increase was a good move, but I still don't like or use "Primaris" I like the older armour models better, they have character, will probably just end up using Horus Heresy models as proxy's if I ever need to expand my army once the last Firstborn kits is retired.
As for a new sized tactical or devastator squad I don't think it will happen, Space Marines are the poster boy starter faction, having a variety of weapon options will probably be thought of as to confusing for new players, hence the more fixed loadouts of the Primaris releases.
I'm pissed about the possibility of losing my FB deathwatch
As someone who got in part way through 8th, I find the primaris design philosophy is incredibly hit or miss. The improvements just seem to be implementing parts of the Firstborn design philosophy while their bigger misses seem to be their attempts at implementating aspects original to Primaris.
Great vid! Good use of the visuals.
As a FB enjoyer, I will say the direction is headed in the right direction for Primaris....the smooth bubble power pack is still a problem for me but that seems to be a me thing lol....
There are things I like about both the FB kits and the Primaris kits. What I don't like, is the narrative feel of the Primaris, on the whole, they seem storm trooperish and I think their unit specialization works hard against the idea of scarcity and small chapter size. In a GW article leading up to 10th they mention how the FB 'Care for each greave as a relic' and the Primaris treat their war gear in a much more utilitarian fashion.....I just really hated that. I feel they continue to work against the vibe of 40k....of course I can head canon that but still I think that informs how the design team feels about it. Oh well, change happens, and the direction is improving, so hopefully it continues :)
30k's success means that even if they die off in 40k, there will always be first born options
I like Primaris assembly and body proportions more, but I can’t help but love and want more Firstborn.
Rhinos and Predators will go to Legends just like the Land Speeder has.
I think currently there’s not much incentive for GW to do that until sisters of battle/silence have a replacement for rhinos and chaos have a replacement for rhinos/predators/vindicators.
@@Rottenflieger. GW just won't box rhinos and predators for space marines
As long as they are an option for chaos they won't get rid of them
@@colinbielat8558 they just won't be boxed for space marines.
@mogwaiman6048 they are the exact same kit, only difference is the chaos vehicle upgrade sprue, every vehicle they have removed were space marine only vehicles. They will not remove the ones shared between the ranges.
The silly thing is that I think they could have done a full range “scale-up” and made money without messing the community around with the Primaris thing. People are always starting new armies, I think they are/were scared that the OG people in the community would just stop buying their models
i will buy no more marines. I did not actually play them. but i enjoyed collecting them and built a full 1000 man chapter. which i am still painting on. i give my new marines i get in bundle boxes to my son. it helps him expand his army and i get the models i want with the terrain.
I think the best way forward is to ditch all the first born kits and give intercessors the same load out options as tactical squads - e.g. special weapon, heavy weapon. Updated landraider kit (or assault ramp repulsor variant), replacement whirlwind or thunderfire cannon and a new flyer, marines will be sorted then 😁
I’d rather them release a new primaris tactical squad with head swaps different armour marks etc.
as a painter I dont care about the loadout I care about the appearance, the new helmets suck, I want those MK 7's back
How do you plY white scars without bike characters, biker squads, biker honor guards etc?
@@piotrjeske4599 I’m that stuff will come the same time as the Raven wing refresh, along with multi part outriders.
@@artycharr
I like the new helmet. As much as the Mk VII and Mk VI
Get a 3d printer and you can find all sorts of good firstborn kits that match the new 30k plastics. If i ever started a space marine army id have a whole army of firstborn with "counts as" units for any primaris squads i would need.
they could just release an upgrade sprue for intercessors to make them into tactical load outs / devastator load outs .. just do a weapons sprue upgrade / helmet to allow a special weapon / heavy weapon into a 10man inty squad and you can replace the tacs ./.. 6 heavy weapons in a kit then can make a dev squad out of primaris as well ..
They should but then they wouldn't be able to sell you more plastic kits
God those BA Tacticals are gorgeous
Primaris was the biggest reddit moment in all of 40k
Just update the MKVII kits and move them to the HH range. Win win. Even the Baal Predator is now 'available' in 30k.
Isn't MKVII post-heresy?
@@wyrdwulf999 Nah it was around for the Siege of Terra but not in huge numbers. Same with the modern terminator armour
Yeah, I saw the games workshop website have the rhino was in stock on Friday
Just saw this video and I enjoyed it. I do love Primaris Marines, but I also do love the 30k Firstborn marines. I did find the original 40k sculpts a bit "derpy" but 30k is firstborn marines done very well. A small "nitpick" if you don't mind lol When you showed the images of firstborn still in 40k, you showed a pic of Grimaldus of the Black Templars. He actually is Primaris now, alongside Helbrect and The Emperor's Champion. All 3 of them are all Primaris now. Back when GW announced the new versions of the models, they said in that announcement page, that all 3 have crossed the Rubicon Primaris. They kept the old helmets but they are canonically Primaris now.
Everyone's lore is theirs to enjoy on their own, and your dudes are your dudes. If you want to run Firstborn go for it, there isn't a lot of support going forward, but the horus heresy models might provide some solid alternatives. Helmet swaps are also a good option, you can run whichever tacticus models in the current supported squads and run mark 7 helmets. Cool video, thanks for sharing.
I do like the terminators, scouts, and a lot of the characters.
My main issue with a lot of the primaris/40k kits is I feel they’re made to minimize 3rd party bits/copyright, but my issue is the sprue design not necessarily the way they look if that makes sense, especially the recent stuff. Which is why I buy more 30k stuff but I do still pick up 40K kits. I liked the new jump intercessor Captain
IMO they’re going to do Horus heresy/historical ranges. So they’re going to regulate a lot of “first born” stuff to older eras
FIRSTBORN FOR LIFE BROTHERS
Good One!
Is there a source of info that states which wave or year each 40K model was released.
They just made Truescale marines. But they wanted to make sure that you bought in and didn't just use their old smaller models.
There's a few interesting factors at play, and great video, enjoyed it a lot. 1) Size of models. Nearly everyone is happier the recent models are bigger. Having Space Marines the same size as human guard doesn't fit the lore, or look impressive on the table. The thing GW needs to keep an eye on is not making everything always bigger, as otherwise we're gonna be playing on tennis courts in 10 years time. 2) Primaris design vs Firstborn marine design. Very subjective, but most 40k fans I think prefer the newer sculpts which are being more faithful to the established and loved space marine aesthetic and mix of armour marks, chapter heraldry and so on is what makes space marines interesting. 3) Lore. The introduction of Primaris, their in-universe impact and their new technology are the antithesis of a stagnating and dying Imperium of Man. A necessary change to drive product line expansion, but it is at odds with the whole point of 40k (in my opinion). A clumsy way of going about changing the space marine product range, but i think the return to space marine DNA in recent years is only a good thing. Kind of explains why Horus Heresy has also been able to be so popular. 4) Logistics. So much of GW's product range is space marines, to the point it can't keep up with itself, but also other factions lose out on updates and getting to a level of parity with space marine players. On the flip side, there's only so many space marines one person needs before you get oversaturated with the same models.
The BS with the Primaris is why I quit playing back in early 8th ed. Finding someone to buy my 5Kish points of firstborn Blood Angels is going to be a pain.
Just commenting my thoughts on if they release the MKVII armour,
- With the Horus heresy rolling in the old armour marks, I would imagine they’d save the iconic space marine mark until last (MkVii)
- The MkVii (Aquila) came out towards the end of the Horus heresy as the scientists on Mars developing it fled to Terra,
- It would be a fitting end to the Horus heresy edition to release them,
- Would think they’d create the models for them following the same pattern as armour mark is compatible with the upgrade weapons and shares the same posing,
Those are my hopes at least,
I will say, I don't hate the Primaris MODELS in themselves, but I really do dislike the range philosophy of having each squad type be ludicrously specialized as if they were Eldar Aspect Warriors. I liked the *relative* simplicity and flexibility that the basic marines had, and then you could add more specialized variants for the Chapter-specific Codices. I've always thought, for example, that the Reivers should have been a Raven Guard thing, the Centurions a Imperial Fists thing, Infernus a Salamanders thing, etc. Maybe with some overlap.
Also, the open-top vehicles DO look very silly.
I cant wait for Grey Knights refresh. I proxy my horus heresy as a 40k army. Happy they keep the tactical squad in the datasheet, ust need to change the bases. We lost the assault squad with jumpacks in 10th taugh.
I think the way they did the sternguard could work for other units, like devastators and tacticals. The primaris never really bothered me other than the cost of replacing all my firstborn, but now that I have loads of them and that cost is behind me, I guess I'm more accepting, :)
i wouldn't mind seeing returned firstborn in a new scale. we'll have to wait and see I guess. i'd definitely grab some new firstborn kits fsho.
Ill never stop replacing my primaris helmets with firstborn helmets.
Yeah, Primaris helmets look stupid and boring.
My Blood Angels collection includes models from 1st and 2nd edition. What a difference in scale! I have several squads of the old metal Terminators. These look tiny compared to the current Primaris Marines. Of course I have replaced them with the plastics. I finished painting them about 6 months before the new 10th edition Terminators came out. Sigh. I won't be upsizing my terminators again.
One minor observation. The 32mm bases in current use are taller than the 25mm bases Space Marines were sold with previously. The height difference is a little exaggerated as a result.
Is there any reason to buy first born, I play BA
dude, you made me go and buy a 10 man tac squad of 2014 BA cause you told me they are OOP and super hard to find. lol i found them bundled with a razorback for 40 bucks.
I am building my first SM army in 10th edition, and i wanted to only use the old forstborne models i have lying around from other boxes. And it struck me how hard it was to build a functional 1000 pts infantery army.
The firstborne captain or luitenant is pretty much the only hero choice you have, and then i filled the rest with vanguard veterans, tyrannic war veterans, devestator squads and scouts
Just use firstborn as primaris units.
Hellblasters - full squads of plasma guns
Infernus - full squads of flamers
Intercessors- tactical squads with all boltguns
Assault intercessors - chainswords and bolt pistols
Jump intercessors - assault squads with chainswords
Desolators- full missile launcher squads
Outriders- bike squads
Primaris atv- attack bike
Redemptor- dreadnought with assault cannon or plasma cannon and heavy flamer fist
Ballistus- lascannon and missile dreadnought
Sure, couts-as/proxy is fine, but my point was to try to build a fully firstborne army, models and rules, in spite of the primaris posterboys.
And it made me sad to realize how much the army index shits on the firstborne to sell new kits.
I will probably only play it once or twice and then go back to my scratch-bashed mek-ork army that never becoms obsolete because the models are made of literal trash.
Play OnePageRules
I finished my firstborn army of 20+ years a few years ago.
Dont play only collect, but honestly i would probably go into collecting primaris or even another faction, but from what i have seen everything is very monopose, and prices are just crazy now.
Is the BA tactical squad much bigger than the standard tactical squad?
very similar as they are both from around 2013-14. That era was a jump in size over the 2012 and earlier firstborn though
Does anyone think they will remake the mk7 armour like they did for hourus Heresy mk 3 & 6 ..?
There's lore justifications and they realistically are gonna do a campaign based on the scouring I believe, so eventually (hopefully) yes
I play Deathwatch, and I am a fan of both Firstborn and Primaris kits. Both are like cakes, I get to eat well everywhere!
Finally, someone is reasonable. Wish your view was more the norm!
The Grey Knights rejected the primaris?
Chaos marines are firstborn too.
Overall i like the primaris model range. There are some im not a fan of like inceptors and the impulsor but that was true of the firstborns. Main thing i dont like is the lore change. They could have just rescaled and called all the new models a step forward in technology and a new codex issued by guilliman explaining the more specialised nature
I like the 9th edition primaris marines in the starter set. I didn’t like the 8th ones so much tbh. I like the death watch minis a lot. Tbh they should’ve just scaled them up and didn’t really make the primaris thing. I like the heroes marines and 30k marines a lot. I do like some of it primaris kits though.
And.. even... today
i am confused. why is every word its own sentence?
I had this concern with how they treated Slaaneshi Chaos Space Marines as well, where they are attempting to demote and downplay the existence event though there is the history of Emperors Children turn to Chaos in books and such, just feels like they give She Who Thirsts the curtain pull whenever the popularity rises more, in exchange for something "family friendly" like a wannabe dark mechanicus daemonhead
If it is not broke, don't fix it.
Upscaling should not happened in the first place .
I don’t like the new range at all but I only collect and play 30k
I really wish the primaris bullshit didn't exist, and that these new models were just space marines with new armor, weapons, vehicles, tech and combat doctrins. That way it wouldn't mess up the lore, but it was not to be 😓
I wouldn't be surprised if GW phases out Firstborn altogether and replaces them all with Primaris.
I think overall primaris are prettier, tho I do love grungy aesthetic of squat marines and I think it was a big miss not to implement this aspects of design to primaris, considering how big of a deal relics of the old time is in 40k. Maybe giving primaria more and more customization options is a good thing to return a flavour of old marines yet making them look actually good for someone not familiar with 40k in the first place. You don't see these weird screwed up proportiona of sm models in old art so you shouldn't see it in models
First
Podger, the kind of guy to stack the deck when playing go-fish with a child 😂😂
My theory is that GW wanted to do a complete scale change but given the backlash of Warhammer going to AoS and people not being able to play with their current models to a degree, they chose to gradually phases the OG models out and added Primaris to cannon as a way of explaining why the two different scales were in the same army
If l knew in 8th ed (started collecting in the end of 7th) that my WS would be hone in 9 years l wouldn't have invested 6 years in to buying, building and painting my army.
@@piotrjeske4599 and yet you can play them in the free One Page Rules. The money that I would have spent on GW is now going towards a 3D printer.
I have read this kind of explanation pretty often ... and I find it stupid.
@@wyrdwulf999 *shrugs* it’s just a theory. A game theory. I saw pictures of people burning their Warhammer armies and paired with the fact that primaris came out of nowhere with mixed armies looking daft… doesn’t seem that far fetched to me
I've had a foot in WH since about 2006 but never got into the hobby mostly the books, games and that. The DA announcements in December is what got me to cave xD I loved the look of all the new scales and designs, I never had the nostalgia of the old stuff and they weren't my cuppa tea. But it's probably a common theme for new players
Brrrrrr
Beside the fact that Primaris Marines were probably made to cover some Black Library "New lore"," bigger and better Space Marines. I really don't see why they just didn't say, Ok,10,000 year later New Armour types Equiment, Etc. and just upscale the New Models. I mean when you thinnk about it. Just what are they planning for the first born? Is the lore going to be well, just like the Thunder Warriors, The First Born have to be done way with? I really don't get it. It's like, well,. we did it once so,. let's do it again kinda thing. I find that, Well,. Kinda stupid. If you go that route then in 10 years there's going to be a 3rd generation Space Marine with a Anti coruption Gene and they're going to be even bigger and better. Face it the whole thing is really, WG is just a greedy company that keeps trying to find new ways/ reasons for people to spend more money on their products. When in fact, they can't even flech out the newer Core rule books and codices with out erratas even before they bring the next one out. The latest being goiing from 9th ed. to 10th.
original and best.
GW being GW had a good thing and soiled it to try and make money.
GW stated they are not replacing first born when Primaris first came out (you can still find the quote in the Warhammer Community site I believe), obviously that was a lie. The removal of the BA tacticals and other firstborn kits made it obvious they are getting phased out.
Personally I don't give a toss about modern GW or Primaris, they have become a terrible company over the years and I think Primaris lore is an extremely shallow excuse to try and increase sales.
This crap about Firstborns can't ride in Primaris tanks etc was a total shitshow, the better way was slow upscales like with the chaos space marines slowly getting larger and more new units, almost nobody complains about that. The Orks and Eldar that just got new, larger scale kits as well saw little complaints although the Ork boys were a bit of a fail as they are now mono-pose and when you have a "horde army" that's monopose it doesn't look as good, also the unit loadout options don't quite work.
Firstborn kits are easier to build, look great, and STILL have more chapter unique kits (Sapcewolves longfangs, BA Death Company, Sanguinary Guard to name a few) and are now cheap on ebay, it's a win-win for me.
The reason primaris get the MK7 helmets is because they are a better design and even GW has to admit they are more iconic then the primaris ones.
GW is purely a profit-seeking entity and they are shameless about it, they recently released the older, smaller firstborns in the Macragge boxset re-release at a higher price then the original and with less components, this "collectors kit" is largely useless in the modern game but they knew it would make money, they act like ebay scalpers with their own products.
I prefer the Firstborn aesthetic and size. I find the Primaris too big. I wasn’t concerned about “True Scale”, GW could have just changed the lore or just made the few Guard minis they had smaller. I’m thankful for the Horus Heresy range at the moment and eBay.
The new mk6 and 3s are perfect scale compared to primaris lore wise I think. Just wish primaris was never a thing, it was just a new armour mark and the were the height of the new 6s and 3s...
then we would have all the weak bs lore about cawl and guillimans plan blah blah blah.
6:28 I disagree with the design getting better. Scale 100% but design. it's just picking bits from the fitst born range, then just discarding the rest. Like all the variations in helmets and armour is gone to the point. it's all just harmoginised and same looking outside of charaters and revamped first born kits like the sternguard.
Like all the flavour and extra customisation is gone from the kits.
14:04 that's because they are chapter specific. It's good that they are improving but that doesn't excuse how mid the overall range has been.
I collect primaris, but it isn't that fun when most of the flavour of the model comes from the gun its holding if it isn't designed to be something special
First Born = Peak Space Marines
Primaris better? lol
My army 4 squads of bikes, two command biker squads, 6 land speeders , 13 attack bikes, 2 khans, 2stormseers, 1 chaplain, 1 tech marine all on bikes. 20 sniper scouts. Started building them at the end of 7th ed. Finished at the end of 9th. And then 10th codex marines invalidated my army. I don't like how primaris look like. The new speeders are tank sized and look stupid , the quad is horrible , the outriders and outrider champ are meh in general and comparing to classic white scar bikers they are just bland . The heros , aside for the chaplain, don't exist . The sniper scouts are gone too. I would say, l am one of those people who spend a ton of time and money on their army and now are unhappy , because the army is gone.
Also the whole , so just play HH, doesn't work . hh players are like historical players they dont want to see any mk7 etc armour, the w40k armies don't really translate in to HH either. A pure bike army of WS in HH doesn't use regular bikes. It uses jetbikes and FW landspeeders
I will say to be fair your army is more likely to be accepted by a horus heresy group, MK VII was used at the siege of terra and the white scars were there. Not to mention you can use the spatha bike profiles for everything.
I hope new Primaris update Horus Heresy infantry unit types.
I do not play Primaris and I do not like them (neither the dumb as shit lore, nor the designs that look as if some pubescents have designed them to compensate something). I do not play in tournaments, so I will take firstborn models to the field and use the rules of Primaris units for them which are similar. Luckily I am in the position to have enough money to afford even overpriced oop figures. So GW can do whatever they want, I do not care very much! I am in the hobby since 1990 and always went with the figures and rule sets I liked the most and I do not intend to do otherwise in the future. Just my 2 cents!
You're not alone 😎🤙
Same here mate. First born for life
Idk I could suggest a 3d printer or something and just making the helmets and other things to make them feel firstborn
Hell yeah brother, just got back into it recently and been clearing ebay for firstborn 😂
Just buy from china
It's not really right to say that the "Primaris design philosophy looks good now", because it's really just a quick rehash of what the firstborn already brought to the table save for proportions. Gravis looks ugly, anti-grav tanks are still stupid, the jorts of the phobos armour are hideous, and the new guns, like the desolation squad launchers.... yeah. Primaris brought no in-lore "cool stuff" to the space marines to appreciate. But I enjoy your vids and takes!
The modular armour is cool as hell, gravis is cool, phobos looks infinitely better than scout armour. The anti grav tanks are fine the repulsor especially. You just dont want to let go of your blackberry curve and wont admit the obvious advancements of anything new.
@dancallan7907 'advancements of anything new' used to be something that literally wasn't a thing in 40k. 'Forget the promise of progress' etc. Primaris are fine with me all the same, just another mark of armour and marine basically but yeah grav tanks are not my fav aesthetic for the Imperium.
@dancallan7907 What modular armour?
First born had that with all the different marks that could be bashed together now there's only tacticus and all tacticus looks the same unless it's an old character who has been made into a primaris but gets to keep most of their old armour.
The lore is dumb and the size of them is dumb, the grav tanks look rubbish
@@dancallan7907 You're taking this weirdly personal. Chill! Enjoy your invader ATV🦼
More detail doesn't make something good. It wasn't that they were lacking detail, it was that the generic space soldier design language of all varieties of Primaris and their vehicles etc is absolute gutter trash.
Almost like white people lol
primaris bolters look soo ugly . they are comically large and cover the entire upper half of the marine . the hekmet design is and weird kneeguards are goofy as hell
I was not happy about the change in scale. Neither were my friends. You keep saying most people were happy but I think it was mostly four year olds who were happy about the duplofication of 40k.
I bet if you propped them up on some cork or something like that and painted them well 90% of people wouldn’t notice or care if you used firstborn.
I recently lost a bunch of models due to edition change. My big mek either kustom force field and grot tanks z. LEGENDS. All my friends expensive dark vengeance autogun cultists, NO LONGER LEGAL lol
Bin them all they are clapped and shit. They should have gone at the start of 8th with the refresh. Drip taking them away just annoys both sides and pleases no one. They should have ripped the bandade off in one go. I dont want to see any of these units in 11th. Its thankfully looking like there wont be any upscaled midget marine or new intercessor kit with tactical loadout. They have clearly gone in another direction with dedicated units for every roll. A tactical intersessor squad now would be weird.
I liked the first born, but they look laughably unproportional compared to the primaris. If both would have been released at the same time I doubt people would have picked firstborn. It is just nostalgia for many people that they might prefer the old ones. At least that is my humble opinion. Having their financial/time investment getting devalued by GW is of course very unfortunate. But the firstborn looked like old school toys that probably would have a harder and harder time to attract new customers.