Basic refreshes are fine, especially rescales, but if, for example it creates more than triple the rules bloat, it defeats some of the purpose. A primaris devestator squad would make sense, and I think people would have less problem with it. But when they replace the devastators with the missile squad, plasma squad, rocket squad, and the eventual lascannon or grav squad, it’s a bit annoying. Same thing with Assault Intercessors and Jump Intercessors. Why did those two kits have to be split when the assault marine kit did the same thing with less workload for GW? Same thing with the primaris dreadnoughts, speeders, etc. Business decision, of course. But when the “upgrade” path requires more dosh for parity with older items, and with less customization, it’s a downgrade imo.
Perfectly put. If GW were actually suffering from having to make too many kits, they'd easily be able to alleviate it by just being less greedy with the specialization of units. A good example of what should be done is the Loota kit, which can be made into Burna boyz easily.
A single consumer on average will buy more boxes when there are hellblasters, desolation marines, infernus marines, eradicators etc as opposed to buying 4x devastator squads. It leads to more rules bloat but then they retire just as much old stuff. Overall it's the best way to shift boxes of models.
Legends has a bad connotation that people need to change their perspective on. It sucks for tournament players, sure, but I don't think most people play tournaments anyways
I agree with this. My local GW store owner told me directly that even in their store tournaments, they FULLY allow all Legends units. The only place that unanimously bans Legends units are massive, national-level tournaments because there's money and actual prizes on the line, so letting somebody bring a crazy good Legends unit is a big no-no.
What if a new player bought these models and all of a sudden they become legends? I was genuinely considering buying the Tarantulos Brood, but now I'm thankful I didn't because months later I'd get the rude awakening that my models are no longer playable in the game I bought them for. For long-time collectors, sure not as big of an issue, but for any casual wargamer or new players this makes me never want to buy anything GW, because all my models now potentially have a short artificial shelf life
No to be too cynical but if it took you months to reconsider buying that set probably only proves that Tarantulos had to go because you were not the only who decided to not buy them eventually I guess.
It isn't exactly business savvy to eliminate consumer confidence by scrapping some products that are barely 2 years old. Why buy the new stormcast eternals if they're going to be replaced in 3 to 6 years? Worse than that, why waste your most vulnerable currency, time?
By that logic why release a new video game every 2 years (or even every year) that completely deletes everyone's progress in the old game? It's not business savvy to release a game players know is going to be obsolete in less than 18 months (and often times much shorter than that).
@@jamesdo3086 These aren't the same hobby, personally I feel this is apples and oranges. AND there have still been cases of backlash against this, no one liked starting over in destiny 2 and losing all their stuff, and it certainly didnt help with the state that game launched in.
Probably the best thing about the AoS phase out is they are giving people a years notice, that is a good thing. IMO what makes the Space Marine model retirement a bit harder is that the new units typically are plainer and have fewer options in the rules. Even if the newer models are “better”. It does make sense from a business stand point, tough to be too upset about it…..but I am still 😅😅 lol
plainer is an understatement, they are vanilla as fuck, seriously their arguement of "its too much ornamentation" makes no sense when you look at the chaos units, the night lords, the dark angels etc. then you get just plain ultramarines, with nothing that stands out about them, worse the new armor looks boring too, even the basic one, its got stupid slits on the front of the helmet isntead of those iconic mouth grills/beaks, they just have a huge identity problem.
@@artycharr How can you look to the standard tactical squad and the basic Interssessors and say that both are not the same in terms of ornamentation? About the helmets I think it is a matter of taste. I, for once, much prefer the newer ones than the old angry marines grills (the beaks are good though ).
In a way I see your point. I just wish GW would provide more miniatures or refresh some of the stuff for other factions. They sometimes remove stuff from other factions with no model to replace it with. I know Space Marines sell well but at least give the other factions something instead of making more stuff for marines.
oh and one more thing, I still have a copy of monopoly from 1999 in a cupboard, it still plays monopoly and the rules are different for every version of monopoly that comes out but the pieces never really change, a board game doesnt have an expiry date, however GW does have an attention span issue.
Pretty sad how the fans are treated. Not sure if I want to devote more money and time to a hobby that will leave me behind. Maybe time to invest into other hobbies like mountain bike riding or programming. Who says the person who already bought are not going to keep buying. Thank you for this Great explanation about how GW sees me. The foresight is to realize that maybe need to find a new hobbies
I’m of two minds about this but full disclosure I’m not an AoS player. First, I do see the business side of it and it does make sense. You do need to cut costs where possible and inventory costs money. That’s fair. I do question though retiring models that are not very old. That will harm your sales moving forward too because people will be gun shy. How will they know the very expensive models they buy today will be supported tomorrow? Would it really be that difficult to have rules for old miniatures simply come out less frequently? Especially if GW was up front about it that these models are going to be retired and the rules support will be less frequent, updated maybe every edition with a PDF, is that really too much to ask for?
Plus you gotta remember the customer who is most pissed off about this is the one not buying much anyway. Losing them as a customer isn't much of a loss
@@podger_minis Their not buying much *today. A lot of us are recurring players who take a break every few editions. I can tell you if my 3rd Edition Eldar army was unplayable, I wouldn't have started back into the hobby and started 2 new ones. It doesn't damage sales today, but it damages future sales of returning customers.
There's a long history of models coming and going from GW games, but this one felt like something new, a reality check for sure. The assumption that stuff would hang on until it was almost on Antiques Roadshow is gone now, anything could potentially go at any time. in the long run it might just mean more games, and the stuff that has truly stayed collectible over decades will show up in its own game mode. the Old World is doing better than I thought it would, so I fully expect to see some kind of oldhammery vehicle for flogging all the old 40k models to show up in the next 5 years. Either a timeline shift for Heresy or something new. I feel like it's more a problem for casual collectors than serious gamers, when you don't care about the games but find yourself only wanting models they don't sell anymore, that's not a fun place to be.
I think the main problem isnt that they make new models that are better and look nice, its the fact that games workshop could so easily just balance the old models too and just have more models for you to play with. The whales would still buy everything and it would make the company more trustworthy. Updates and refreshes are just much better.
I do believe they are also attempting to listen to competitive players, lots of people have complained about the functional overlap in units. Which is a self inflicted problem from GW, with them releasing never ending stormcast kits. They genuinely could have just wrote average rules for them, like they used to do historically and people wouldn't use them. However they feel like they have to cull them, to appease the ever growing esports mindset sweeping the hobby.
It's one thing to discontinue or update kits with new ones. I doubt the new terminators or sternguard went over badly with anyone. I just don't see the need for the "legends classification". Without rules updates the vast majority of units fall by the wayside anyway.
I got back into the hobby via Dark Angels just over a year ago and figured out quickly the difference between Primaris and older kits. Thankfully I made a decision to avoid the old stuff, except for 'sprue upgrade' sort of purposes. Meanwhile I kept watching all these people buying units upon units of old deathwing terminators and ravenwing bikes. I could see what was about to happen, even as a new player, I guess it's down to how hyperfocused you are on the landscape
@@LongWarEnjoyer I'm not saying I don't like the old kits, just that I've been wary of them as a new player. I last played the game in '96 so the old termies are beautiful to me lol
I completely agree in general, I think the bigger issue is if you buy something and it immediately becomes invalid. If they remove rules support for a kit, they should give advance notice, I shouldn’t have to figure this out at the start of the edition. I think that’s what annoyed people with Legends at the start of 40k 10th. I had a friend who got into the hobby and after half a year lost half his army to legends of the horus heresy
I would definitely have 3x as many Models in my 30 years of GW experience as can be seen in the Pictures, but I have always sold parts from time to time to use the Money for new Armies. I have a 3D printer for 2 years now and only buy Datacards from GW
Solution to Range Rotation: Play older editions and host your own old edition narrative tournaments to deter metagamers Solution to Range Rotation: Play One Page Rules or other mini agnostic games with these models, even TTRPGS can use many old minis I really appreciate your perspective. We often get "GW BAD" crammed down our throats so its nice to see the other side of the coin. It makes complete sense from a business perspective, it just sucks as a consumer that wants to play competitive. If you play casually, none of this will really affect you unless you wanted these models. Even still, just lurk on Ebay or the like
I mostly agree with you. Nonetheless retiring models earlier than before will influence buying decisions as the value over time is now effectively reduced.
I can certainly understand how it can hurt. I think there are potentially two ways to soften the blow, speaking as a relatively new player: Avoid accumulating a pile of shame. My first hobby goal was to assemble whatever I get so that I can use and enjoy them on the table. Secondly, paint them yourself or have them done by someone else to a high enough standard that you can enjoy them on your shelf for years to come.
Sorry but I personally feel that 6 to 8 years is an incredibly abnormally short amount of time for a model in a wargame. I wont accept comparisons to other products as I feel they're apples to oranges. I think the points you make are clear, revelant, and logical, but I don't feel I have to like them. I feel like this is looking at a bad part of bussiness and shruging it off because its "just bussiness" and we have to accept it. I dont know that I agree. Also on the worst end, the warcry "Horns of Hashut" had only been released for 2 years. Which is hillarious short for these types of models.
Haven’t seen anyone online with this take yet, so glad to find someone else who understands that this is an unfortunate but necessary thing for the model range, the games and the business that produces them instead of just rage baiting for views. It definitely sucks for those affected, but it’s a necessary evil if we want things to continue to progress. These old models won’t just evaporate either, it’s pretty much only something that affects competitive players in official tournaments, outside of that we are still free to proxy and improvise as much as we like. Not a popular take but I think it’s the case.
The first two edition's worth of stormcast have been completely removed. That isn't something that effects only competitive players. I'm not against progress, or new releases, but it is currently coming at the expense of maintaining the existing systems and ranges. Look at the whole logistics fiasco for the past 12 months.
@@1rnw792 I get what you mean, but if you can use the legends rules or proxy the old models for the new ones and still use the new rules everywhere other than a competitive setting, how doesn’t it? If a friend of mine wanted to use his old stormcast I wouldn’t have a problem with it at all
Meanwhile in battletch a game's company much smaller then GW with a market share equall to 40k Id say in games/models/toys(GW wants to be compared to Hasbro, Lego, Bandai, chess so be it.) always for 40 years has updated every rules to the new models and they always seek to bring out more and more models from the back catlog to normal production or print on demend... If Battletech can do all of this including having old abd new models on sell at once with rules for both why can't GW? Do they hate money and their fans or what? Like remember the race last year between Battletech's Kickstarter, Star wars shatterpoint a new game and Warhammer 40k 11? Like GW got 3rd in a race everyone said they would haddly win... Why? mainly because they refused to sell copies to people who wanted them when the other two didn't... Also all of the other odd cjhoices GW makes from shutting down animators to making their box prices higher and higher for much worse value. So honestly people need to stop lying for GW if they want GW to make better products at better prices... Like why s saying GW can't have old marines and new marines at the same time is a good thing or even true?
The only way GW can win is to make everything made to order, every one still has access to their kits thay way and they only need to make a product once it has already sold so it saves on space. To make it work there would need to be alot of in house chnages but it can be done and they can still make a profit and keep everyone happy.
As an Aos player, i think its good to remove models to prevent bloat. Its great to have variety, but when 3 different models serve the same role, it just gets too likely that you will buy a model and then after balance it may become unusable I like Stormcasts models, but the army was so wide it was what stopped me from jumping in Now, they should prioritize older models, and even more just dont bloat the game to begin with, but in the current state i think it was a necessary decision. I also think that instead of just removing models to release new ones, they should re-work older models, it brings money while not upsetting so many players
I'm okay with most of the squats. BoC go to old world which is probably suitable given their age. Bonesplitterz were a subfaction that almost no one played and barely had any variety of models. The Stormcast is probably the worst out of all these and that's just down to their own mistakes. Practically releasing an entire new army of Stormcast every edition was never going to end well. Now we just have to wait and see if this is them actually trying to reduce bloat or simply GW being greedy as usual.
Honestly I think this went over so badly because they didn't explain better. If they said, yeah, we want to do stuff with these guys but for bow they have to go away... They're not making money or whatever. If they just would have said that I think that would have gone over a bit better
i HOPE this comes to primaris because lets be real, MANY of them like sigmarines do the same job which is why they will be obsolete when you base everything on fomo... people wont buy the same unit when there is another one that does the same thing but better. this is tbh a big W because GW cant focus on 100 games where each game has dozens of units for each faction. we can see it when it says " out of stock". i dont feel bad for anyone because its the addicted fans that make these situations instead of not calling out GW for their bs. people cant take a breath because its just new faction after faction and its LIMITED
I've been hearing this argument over and over again and its dumb. The models may be 6-10 years old, but that does not mean everyone who has those models have had them for 6-10 years. Furthermore, this hobby is by nature a slow hobby. Buying a full 2000pts army can be done in an instant, but most people buy it over time and painting it can take ages.
This argument only makes half sense. They can stop producing models sure but there’s no reason they have to stop printing warscrolls for the people who bought them. Especially if the models are 6-8 years old.
Well dunno If I've said it you b4 but I'll say it again were in a new era n gw is now a sports shop lol except miniature painting takes a long time ⌛️ ⏲️ 😅
I can’t accept 8-10 years is a good lifespan for a wargaming army. People will not buy everything on release date, and it can take years to paint and assemble an army. If they update a kit, they should keep the old one usable in the new rules players pay for. Those players are still active and still buying other things and spending a lot of money: it is not comparable to a F2P player of a mobile game. You want war gamers to invest in the hobby, and invalidating their models is an awful way to do this. This is not MTG.
The reason there not popular is cause they were designed poorly and no one liked them. 3rd edition was the first time they got models people like for Stormcast so they ditched all the other ones. They kept throwing the same model design and were tired of being bulled and called "Fatcast." So they finally put a braincell together and made a good design. Now, they are confident enough to sell Stormcasts that wont be made fun of.
the new ones look like metalic handsome squidward, they dont look like an improvement, they are just slimline, they have no character, they have no interesting features and are thouroughly bland.
so I love Stormcast Eternals.. starting with AOS last year was my first step back into collecting and playing warhammer! I loved the Vindictors and the Orruk Kruleboys that come in the set... now.. I didnt want to buy any models from the first and second releases of AOS because tbh... the models look like shit.. they look like they were designed 20 years ago... they are too chunky.. and they dont look right next to newer models... thats an honest feel and opinion.. sometimes.. new is just better..
Podger nails it again. A great level-headed take on what is, as you say, probably a purely business decision. Be that for SCE because the bloat was hindering the rules team, BoC because the specialist design studio wanted them, or BS because they'd introduced KBZ to replace them. Whilst products were released so much slower 20, 30 years ago with this quickening pace I think you're right to say that players should buy armies with their eyes open to there being a limit to the competitive viability of those models. Model collectors and casual gamers don't have that problem (as a collector and painter my problem is more about the decision to collect an army now, or wait for a range refresh). I'm not sure these culls will be so severe with the dawn of every new edition, but I do think retirments will be regular.
To someone that plays a lot of video games, headlines like these sound terrible. Then i remember that most of this stuff is completely made up. Its not like your model will vanish or you cant play with them anymore. Unlike in modern games, where things you purchased can be taken away from you at any time.
" you cant play with them anymore." anyone who plays with warhammer plays competetively, you dont play to lose, you play to win, otherwise you wouldnt bother and in that regard, you cant play competetively with these models because you cannot use proxy models in a competetive scenario.
@@artycharr I dont play the game myself so i suppose my point of view is from a spectators pov. But isnt warhammer played for fun? Surely saying that "anyone who plays with warhammer plays competitively" is just false. Also cant you just play an earlier edition of the game?
@@artycharr Yes you don't play to lose but it doesn't mean you play necessarily play competitively. Most players are casual players, not competitive players and are just having fun they can still play those models in legends if they really wish to. Also for competition it's always better to avoid being overloaded by minis or rules as it would be hell to balance especially when it's already hard enough to do. I understand it suck to lose model but it's necessary for the game to evolve plus for the moment it looks to be a better refresh than 40k
@@Itz2Cat I think a better way of putting this than any of what these otehr commenters are saying is to state that with an unsupported model you have a harder time finding an opponent. When these models stop being sold, they stop getting rules for the game. So in, roughly 3 years when 4th edition leaves and 5th edition shows up, they won't have rules anymore. (They'll have something called 'Legends' rules in 4th meaning they're still losing official rules earlier than I'm stating here.) Finding someone to play an earlier edition can be harder than you think. If you're lucky, you probably have a nearby club for you town with perhaps 10 other players (depending on your area, speaking from my personal experience), If they dont want to play an older edition, you simply can't. And its generally a social norm to use the most recent set of rules. Overall its just harder for you to get games with models that aren't "Offically supported" anymore
Do you know how tone deaf this comment is? MTG is much cheaper and the cards can be used right out of the pack. You don’t need to build them and paint them before you can officially play them.
that´s not true, MTG has several formats where all cards are pretty much useable. I think GW would be benefitted by that, more formats, however I don´t think the rules team would be able to support several formats seeing they pretty much abandoned Combat Patrol rules.
@@AresGodofWargames Thanks I am aware. I used to play it for years. Trouble is when you venture outside of standard thing get really unbalanced and not fun imo. At least with GW things could still stay relevant with updates to the rules and codexes.
Unless your an eldar phoenix lord then that one sculpt you got in the 90s will be around into the 22nd century
Your tone and cadence are perfect for this kind of message.
What do you mean my Blood Angels Honor guard doesn’t have rules anymore!?!?!? 😡😡😡
Basic refreshes are fine, especially rescales, but if, for example it creates more than triple the rules bloat, it defeats some of the purpose. A primaris devestator squad would make sense, and I think people would have less problem with it. But when they replace the devastators with the missile squad, plasma squad, rocket squad, and the eventual lascannon or grav squad, it’s a bit annoying. Same thing with Assault Intercessors and Jump Intercessors. Why did those two kits have to be split when the assault marine kit did the same thing with less workload for GW? Same thing with the primaris dreadnoughts, speeders, etc. Business decision, of course. But when the “upgrade” path requires more dosh for parity with older items, and with less customization, it’s a downgrade imo.
Perfectly put. If GW were actually suffering from having to make too many kits, they'd easily be able to alleviate it by just being less greedy with the specialization of units. A good example of what should be done is the Loota kit, which can be made into Burna boyz easily.
A single consumer on average will buy more boxes when there are hellblasters, desolation marines, infernus marines, eradicators etc as opposed to buying 4x devastator squads.
It leads to more rules bloat but then they retire just as much old stuff.
Overall it's the best way to shift boxes of models.
Legends has a bad connotation that people need to change their perspective on. It sucks for tournament players, sure, but I don't think most people play tournaments anyways
They should rename legends in Non-tournaments allowed - tournaments allowed
Legends essentially means it will only get rules for the edition its dropped and then thereafter will be lost to the sands of time.
I agree with this. My local GW store owner told me directly that even in their store tournaments, they FULLY allow all Legends units. The only place that unanimously bans Legends units are massive, national-level tournaments because there's money and actual prizes on the line, so letting somebody bring a crazy good Legends unit is a big no-no.
What if a new player bought these models and all of a sudden they become legends? I was genuinely considering buying the Tarantulos Brood, but now I'm thankful I didn't because months later I'd get the rude awakening that my models are no longer playable in the game I bought them for. For long-time collectors, sure not as big of an issue, but for any casual wargamer or new players this makes me never want to buy anything GW, because all my models now potentially have a short artificial shelf life
No to be too cynical but if it took you months to reconsider buying that set probably only proves that Tarantulos had to go because you were not the only who decided to not buy them eventually I guess.
It isn't exactly business savvy to eliminate consumer confidence by scrapping some products that are barely 2 years old.
Why buy the new stormcast eternals if they're going to be replaced in 3 to 6 years? Worse than that, why waste your most vulnerable currency, time?
By that logic why release a new video game every 2 years (or even every year) that completely deletes everyone's progress in the old game? It's not business savvy to release a game players know is going to be obsolete in less than 18 months (and often times much shorter than that).
@@jamesdo3086 There's a big difference between the amount of time and energy put into a physical process as opposed to a digital medium.
@@jamesdo3086
These aren't the same hobby, personally I feel this is apples and oranges. AND there have still been cases of backlash against this, no one liked starting over in destiny 2 and losing all their stuff, and it certainly didnt help with the state that game launched in.
100% especially if you put serious work into your army over the course of a year or even more
Voice like butter talking about a interesting hobby. One of my go-to hobby channels.
Probably the best thing about the AoS phase out is they are giving people a years notice, that is a good thing.
IMO what makes the Space Marine model retirement a bit harder is that the new units typically are plainer and have fewer options in the rules. Even if the newer models are “better”. It does make sense from a business stand point, tough to be too upset about it…..but I am still 😅😅 lol
plainer is an understatement, they are vanilla as fuck, seriously their arguement of "its too much ornamentation" makes no sense when you look at the chaos units, the night lords, the dark angels etc. then you get just plain ultramarines, with nothing that stands out about them, worse the new armor looks boring too, even the basic one, its got stupid slits on the front of the helmet isntead of those iconic mouth grills/beaks, they just have a huge identity problem.
@@artycharr How can you look to the standard tactical squad and the basic Interssessors and say that both are not the same in terms of ornamentation? About the helmets I think it is a matter of taste. I, for once, much prefer the newer ones than the old angry marines grills (the beaks are good though ).
In a way I see your point. I just wish GW would provide more miniatures or refresh some of the stuff for other factions. They sometimes remove stuff from other factions with no model to replace it with. I know Space Marines sell well but at least give the other factions something instead of making more stuff for marines.
Firstborn Black Templats forever ! ! !
Ten years from now I will have my rules for casual gaming .
Im alright with refreshes of models. Like style updates. As long as the faction is still around. Squatting shouldn't exist in a game like this.
oh and one more thing, I still have a copy of monopoly from 1999 in a cupboard, it still plays monopoly and the rules are different for every version of monopoly that comes out but the pieces never really change, a board game doesnt have an expiry date, however GW does have an attention span issue.
Monopoly? You might as well bring up your cup and ball toy lmfao
Just because an edition changes, doesn't mean you can't still play it.
To say the GW business model and running costs are completely different to monopoly is an understatement... I see virtually no analogy worth drawing
Pretty sad how the fans are treated. Not sure if I want to devote more money and time to a hobby that will leave me behind. Maybe time to invest into other hobbies like mountain bike riding or programming. Who says the person who already bought are not going to keep buying. Thank you for this Great explanation about how GW sees me. The foresight is to realize that maybe need to find a new hobbies
There are other wargames and other ways to use the miniatures. I recommend giving an eye to OPR before leaving the hobby. It saved it for me.
I’m of two minds about this but full disclosure I’m not an AoS player. First, I do see the business side of it and it does make sense. You do need to cut costs where possible and inventory costs money. That’s fair.
I do question though retiring models that are not very old. That will harm your sales moving forward too because people will be gun shy. How will they know the very expensive models they buy today will be supported tomorrow? Would it really be that difficult to have rules for old miniatures simply come out less frequently? Especially if GW was up front about it that these models are going to be retired and the rules support will be less frequent, updated maybe every edition with a PDF, is that really too much to ask for?
They only retire stuff that isn't really selling. Given they are likely updating a bunch of these sculpts I suspect long term it'll help sales
Plus you gotta remember the customer who is most pissed off about this is the one not buying much anyway. Losing them as a customer isn't much of a loss
@@podger_minis Their not buying much *today. A lot of us are recurring players who take a break every few editions. I can tell you if my 3rd Edition Eldar army was unplayable, I wouldn't have started back into the hobby and started 2 new ones. It doesn't damage sales today, but it damages future sales of returning customers.
There's a long history of models coming and going from GW games, but this one felt like something new, a reality check for sure. The assumption that stuff would hang on until it was almost on Antiques Roadshow is gone now, anything could potentially go at any time. in the long run it might just mean more games, and the stuff that has truly stayed collectible over decades will show up in its own game mode. the Old World is doing better than I thought it would, so I fully expect to see some kind of oldhammery vehicle for flogging all the old 40k models to show up in the next 5 years. Either a timeline shift for Heresy or something new. I feel like it's more a problem for casual collectors than serious gamers, when you don't care about the games but find yourself only wanting models they don't sell anymore, that's not a fun place to be.
I think the main problem isnt that they make new models that are better and look nice, its the fact that games workshop could so easily just balance the old models too and just have more models for you to play with. The whales would still buy everything and it would make the company more trustworthy. Updates and refreshes are just much better.
I do believe they are also attempting to listen to competitive players, lots of people have complained about the functional overlap in units. Which is a self inflicted problem from GW, with them releasing never ending stormcast kits.
They genuinely could have just wrote average rules for them, like they used to do historically and people wouldn't use them. However they feel like they have to cull them, to appease the ever growing esports mindset sweeping the hobby.
Competitive players are shitbags who ruined 40k
I like it how down to Earth you are with your opinion.
5:27 Thank you soo much for these Insights!
9:15 Thank you!
Fun fact... it doesn't need to be 10 years... some of those models have less tha 7 years.
It's one thing to discontinue or update kits with new ones. I doubt the new terminators or sternguard went over badly with anyone. I just don't see the need for the "legends classification". Without rules updates the vast majority of units fall by the wayside anyway.
Archive the most resent rules before "rotation" for casual gaming.
I got back into the hobby via Dark Angels just over a year ago and figured out quickly the difference between Primaris and older kits. Thankfully I made a decision to avoid the old stuff, except for 'sprue upgrade' sort of purposes. Meanwhile I kept watching all these people buying units upon units of old deathwing terminators and ravenwing bikes. I could see what was about to happen, even as a new player, I guess it's down to how hyperfocused you are on the landscape
there are many of us that have been playing for 20 yrs plus and like the old stuff, sculpts and scale and some hate primaris shit.
@@LongWarEnjoyer I'm not saying I don't like the old kits, just that I've been wary of them as a new player. I last played the game in '96 so the old termies are beautiful to me lol
A fair and balanced video, rather than the “the sky is falling” click bait of most channels.
I completely agree in general, I think the bigger issue is if you buy something and it immediately becomes invalid. If they remove rules support for a kit, they should give advance notice, I shouldn’t have to figure this out at the start of the edition. I think that’s what annoyed people with Legends at the start of 40k 10th. I had a friend who got into the hobby and after half a year lost half his army to legends of the horus heresy
Naw my Custodian Guard will outlive me
Primaris Custodians when
I would definitely have 3x as many Models in my 30 years of GW experience as can be seen in the Pictures, but I have always sold parts from time to time to use the Money for new Armies. I have a 3D printer for 2 years now and only buy Datacards from GW
Solution to Range Rotation: Play older editions and host your own old edition narrative tournaments to deter metagamers
Solution to Range Rotation: Play One Page Rules or other mini agnostic games with these models, even TTRPGS can use many old minis
I really appreciate your perspective. We often get "GW BAD" crammed down our throats so its nice to see the other side of the coin. It makes complete sense from a business perspective, it just sucks as a consumer that wants to play competitive. If you play casually, none of this will really affect you unless you wanted these models. Even still, just lurk on Ebay or the like
Move on to One Page Rules
I mostly agree with you. Nonetheless retiring models earlier than before will influence buying decisions as the value over time is now effectively reduced.
I can certainly understand how it can hurt. I think there are potentially two ways to soften the blow, speaking as a relatively new player:
Avoid accumulating a pile of shame. My first hobby goal was to assemble whatever I get so that I can use and enjoy them on the table.
Secondly, paint them yourself or have them done by someone else to a high enough standard that you can enjoy them on your shelf for years to come.
That’s a very good guess for 10 years.
Sorry but I personally feel that 6 to 8 years is an incredibly abnormally short amount of time for a model in a wargame. I wont accept comparisons to other products as I feel they're apples to oranges. I think the points you make are clear, revelant, and logical, but I don't feel I have to like them. I feel like this is looking at a bad part of bussiness and shruging it off because its "just bussiness" and we have to accept it. I dont know that I agree.
Also on the worst end, the warcry "Horns of Hashut" had only been released for 2 years. Which is hillarious short for these types of models.
Joke's on you, I paint Middle Earth SBG huehue
Haven’t seen anyone online with this take yet, so glad to find someone else who understands that this is an unfortunate but necessary thing for the model range, the games and the business that produces them instead of just rage baiting for views. It definitely sucks for those affected, but it’s a necessary evil if we want things to continue to progress. These old models won’t just evaporate either, it’s pretty much only something that affects competitive players in official tournaments, outside of that we are still free to proxy and improvise as much as we like. Not a popular take but I think it’s the case.
The first two edition's worth of stormcast have been completely removed. That isn't something that effects only competitive players.
I'm not against progress, or new releases, but it is currently coming at the expense of maintaining the existing systems and ranges. Look at the whole logistics fiasco for the past 12 months.
@@1rnw792 I get what you mean, but if you can use the legends rules or proxy the old models for the new ones and still use the new rules everywhere other than a competitive setting, how doesn’t it? If a friend of mine wanted to use his old stormcast I wouldn’t have a problem with it at all
Laugh in casual, collection and painting only
Reality can be anything I want!
Meanwhile in battletch a game's company much smaller then GW with a market share equall to 40k Id say in games/models/toys(GW wants to be compared to Hasbro, Lego, Bandai, chess so be it.) always for 40 years has updated every rules to the new models and they always seek to bring out more and more models from the back catlog to normal production or print on demend... If Battletech can do all of this including having old abd new models on sell at once with rules for both why can't GW? Do they hate money and their fans or what? Like remember the race last year between Battletech's Kickstarter, Star wars shatterpoint a new game and Warhammer 40k 11? Like GW got 3rd in a race everyone said they would haddly win... Why? mainly because they refused to sell copies to people who wanted them when the other two didn't... Also all of the other odd cjhoices GW makes from shutting down animators to making their box prices higher and higher for much worse value. So honestly people need to stop lying for GW if they want GW to make better products at better prices... Like why s saying GW can't have old marines and new marines at the same time is a good thing or even true?
One solution would be aftermarket kits, many are already available from GW.
The only way GW can win is to make everything made to order, every one still has access to their kits thay way and they only need to make a product once it has already sold so it saves on space. To make it work there would need to be alot of in house chnages but it can be done and they can still make a profit and keep everyone happy.
As an Aos player, i think its good to remove models to prevent bloat. Its great to have variety, but when 3 different models serve the same role, it just gets too likely that you will buy a model and then after balance it may become unusable
I like Stormcasts models, but the army was so wide it was what stopped me from jumping in
Now, they should prioritize older models, and even more just dont bloat the game to begin with, but in the current state i think it was a necessary decision.
I also think that instead of just removing models to release new ones, they should re-work older models, it brings money while not upsetting so many players
There's a solution to this. Homebrew your own rules for casual games amungst freinds.
I'm okay with most of the squats. BoC go to old world which is probably suitable given their age. Bonesplitterz were a subfaction that almost no one played and barely had any variety of models. The Stormcast is probably the worst out of all these and that's just down to their own mistakes. Practically releasing an entire new army of Stormcast every edition was never going to end well. Now we just have to wait and see if this is them actually trying to reduce bloat or simply GW being greedy as usual.
Honestly I think this went over so badly because they didn't explain better. If they said, yeah, we want to do stuff with these guys but for bow they have to go away... They're not making money or whatever. If they just would have said that I think that would have gone over a bit better
i HOPE this comes to primaris because lets be real, MANY of them like sigmarines do the same job which is why they will be obsolete when you base everything on fomo... people wont buy the same unit when there is another one that does the same thing but better. this is tbh a big W because GW cant focus on 100 games where each game has dozens of units for each faction. we can see it when it says " out of stock". i dont feel bad for anyone because its the addicted fans that make these situations instead of not calling out GW for their bs. people cant take a breath because its just new faction after faction and its LIMITED
"How much fearmongering hyperbolies do you want with your youtube video today?"
"Yes."
I've been hearing this argument over and over again and its dumb. The models may be 6-10 years old, but that does not mean everyone who has those models have had them for 6-10 years. Furthermore, this hobby is by nature a slow hobby. Buying a full 2000pts army can be done in an instant, but most people buy it over time and painting it can take ages.
Mesbg players: First time?
This argument only makes half sense. They can stop producing models sure but there’s no reason they have to stop printing warscrolls for the people who bought them. Especially if the models are 6-8 years old.
Well dunno If I've said it you b4 but I'll say it again were in a new era n gw is now a sports shop lol except miniature painting takes a long time ⌛️ ⏲️ 😅
I won't care - we switched to One Page Rules years ago.
Yeap.
I can’t accept 8-10 years is a good lifespan for a wargaming army. People will not buy everything on release date, and it can take years to paint and assemble an army. If they update a kit, they should keep the old one usable in the new rules players pay for. Those players are still active and still buying other things and spending a lot of money: it is not comparable to a F2P player of a mobile game. You want war gamers to invest in the hobby, and invalidating their models is an awful way to do this. This is not MTG.
The reason there not popular is cause they were designed poorly and no one liked them. 3rd edition was the first time they got models people like for Stormcast so they ditched all the other ones. They kept throwing the same model design and were tired of being bulled and called "Fatcast." So they finally put a braincell together and made a good design. Now, they are confident enough to sell Stormcasts that wont be made fun of.
the new ones look like metalic handsome squidward, they dont look like an improvement, they are just slimline, they have no character, they have no interesting features and are thouroughly bland.
@@artycharr that's also personal opinion. I've heard people are 50/50. But at least they don't look overweight.
so I love Stormcast Eternals.. starting with AOS last year was my first step back into collecting and playing warhammer! I loved the Vindictors and the Orruk Kruleboys that come in the set... now.. I didnt want to buy any models from the first and second releases of AOS because tbh... the models look like shit.. they look like they were designed 20 years ago... they are too chunky.. and they dont look right next to newer models... thats an honest feel and opinion.. sometimes.. new is just better..
Podger nails it again. A great level-headed take on what is, as you say, probably a purely business decision. Be that for SCE because the bloat was hindering the rules team, BoC because the specialist design studio wanted them, or BS because they'd introduced KBZ to replace them. Whilst products were released so much slower 20, 30 years ago with this quickening pace I think you're right to say that players should buy armies with their eyes open to there being a limit to the competitive viability of those models. Model collectors and casual gamers don't have that problem (as a collector and painter my problem is more about the decision to collect an army now, or wait for a range refresh). I'm not sure these culls will be so severe with the dawn of every new edition, but I do think retirments will be regular.
To someone that plays a lot of video games, headlines like these sound terrible. Then i remember that most of this stuff is completely made up.
Its not like your model will vanish or you cant play with them anymore. Unlike in modern games, where things you purchased can be taken away from you at any time.
" you cant play with them anymore." anyone who plays with warhammer plays competetively, you dont play to lose, you play to win, otherwise you wouldnt bother and in that regard, you cant play competetively with these models because you cannot use proxy models in a competetive scenario.
People can use it as example of - your models are not official or have broken rules- i would not play against you.
Social marks.
@@artycharr I dont play the game myself so i suppose my point of view is from a spectators pov. But isnt warhammer played for fun? Surely saying that "anyone who plays with warhammer plays competitively" is just false. Also cant you just play an earlier edition of the game?
@@artycharr Yes you don't play to lose but it doesn't mean you play necessarily play competitively. Most players are casual players, not competitive players and are just having fun they can still play those models in legends if they really wish to. Also for competition it's always better to avoid being overloaded by minis or rules as it would be hell to balance especially when it's already hard enough to do. I understand it suck to lose model but it's necessary for the game to evolve plus for the moment it looks to be a better refresh than 40k
@@Itz2Cat
I think a better way of putting this than any of what these otehr commenters are saying is to state that with an unsupported model you have a harder time finding an opponent.
When these models stop being sold, they stop getting rules for the game. So in, roughly 3 years when 4th edition leaves and 5th edition shows up, they won't have rules anymore. (They'll have something called 'Legends' rules in 4th meaning they're still losing official rules earlier than I'm stating here.)
Finding someone to play an earlier edition can be harder than you think. If you're lucky, you probably have a nearby club for you town with perhaps 10 other players (depending on your area, speaking from my personal experience), If they dont want to play an older edition, you simply can't. And its generally a social norm to use the most recent set of rules.
Overall its just harder for you to get games with models that aren't "Offically supported" anymore
Be thankful its not like mtg where cards legally speaking can only be used competitively for a few years before being cycled out.
Do you know how tone deaf this comment is? MTG is much cheaper and the cards can be used right out of the pack. You don’t need to build them and paint them before you can officially play them.
that´s not true, MTG has several formats where all cards are pretty much useable. I think GW would be benefitted by that, more formats, however I don´t think the rules team would be able to support several formats seeing they pretty much abandoned Combat Patrol rules.
@@AresGodofWargames Thanks I am aware. I used to play it for years. Trouble is when you venture outside of standard thing get really unbalanced and not fun imo. At least with GW things could still stay relevant with updates to the rules and codexes.
@AresGodofWargames you can always still play old editions. Nothing is stopping you from playing the version of the game you enjoy.