@@johnracine4589 That is not a good litmus test at all. Who do think is more likely to harm you in a room alone, Adolf Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer? Now which one did the worse things to humanity?
Mm hmm, plus no matter how bad what tywin does is, he always has some type of justification, he has the goal of furthering his house and he’ll do anything to get it, ramsay is just sadistic for no reason
watching you guys fighting over which person is worse than the other when all of them are just so damn gut wrenchingly aweful was … so much fun! ♥️ thank you all and especially @girlnettles for spicing things up 🔥 made me feel less awkward about yelling into my phone during the votings
Wild Tyrion gets bumped. Dude essentially uses napalm at the Blackwater to hold the throne his family usurped. I feel like that was a commentary on the US during Vietnam. Regardless this was super crazy and fun. Great idea.
Same! Plus, while David brought up the horrible way he treated Illyrio's bedslave and that bit was up there on the worst stuff George has written, MY mind went to the scene in Selhorys, where he buys a bedslave, uses her, throws up and makes a huge mess that he knows she is going to get whipped for, shrugs and uses her again. Like, that scene was HORRIBLE to read. His entire inner monologue in Dance is like... this guy is done with pretense, the full villainy is coming out.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle Ya like the tribe has spoken and it's all I'm good but, I think Tyrion is gonna turn out to be a major villain in the last part of the series. If we believe the Tyrion Targaryen stuff, he is Dany's half brother, and he has Azor Ahai stuff going on all throughout his story. Just over and over, and Dany is obviously the Amethyst Empress. Idk exactly what's gonna happen, but I feel confident Tyrion is going to be the "Mad King" figure. He will be both Tywin and Aerys true son. The monster.
@@Quirkus23I actually don't subscribe to the Tyrion Targaryen theory (I'm a Lannister twins are secret targs believer, it's just more poetic to me that Tyrion would be Tywin's ONLY true son) but I FIRMLY believe he's about to become a major villain too, I think you're spot on
@sinthoras1917 Splitting hairs imo, I imagine GRRM is making a commentary on the use of chemical weapons in general. The Lannisters have usurped the throne and they defend it with chemical warfare. I would also like to mention the Broken Man speech where George makes it clear the soldiers in these wars are being used by the nobility. The use of chemical warfare is a war crime for a reason and in my opinion anyone who uses it is a villian.
*It's crazy to realize that Ramsay is actually worse than Tywin. Tywin is a man who loved Joanna, always wanted to keep the family together and lead House Lannister to glory, even though he knows he cannot be merciful and clearly was transformed after Joanna's death, seeing Tyrion as the dwarf son (perhaps of the Mad King) who took away from him the only person who made him smile, Joanna Lannister. With power, Ramsay is definitely worse than Tywin. Tywin is a strategic enemy who knows when to make allies and when to kill his enemies, but Ramsay is chaos. Just Euron (from the books) can be worse, scarier and more chaotic than Ramsay and Tywin.*
Despite the subject matter this was probably my favorite stream from y'all. Would love to see more streams like this in a similar format. Love Girlnettles and Tim. The true three heads of the dragon!
Great stream , really fun and interactive. I expected Euron to come on top of this bracket. Euron is hard to top in terms of villainy ; literally wants to destroy the world and rule over the ashes. Euron has engaged in many an atrocity both within and outside his own family. Ramsay revels in his own atrocities and cruelty but Euron does them so scarily casually seemingly with little hesitation and of course no remorse. Euron's impending massive blood sacrifice will likely dwarf nearly any other atrocity. Euron would not hesitate doing just about anything in pursuit of his aims. And just look at Euron's crew , thats one big atrocity in itself ; silenced , in constant traumatized fear. I would expect Euron likely tortures his crew via skin-changing into them as well (if he is capable , which i suspect he is) ; and with the crew being mute and illiterate have no recourse to even inform anyone of their plight. They are stuck in that cycle of trauma and torture. Euron seems a true psychopath and evil incarnate , with literally the worst aspirations (destroying the world). EG is very hard to top in terms of worst villains in the ASOIAF universe.
@@saraseveryn8650 I felt like it accomplished its apparent goal of pointing out society's flaw of alienating the people who need help. It might have been a bit hamfisted doing that at times but I still think it's a good movie that was made by people who are genuinely concerned
Wait, Princess Rhaenys was WHAT I've always thought "the kicking" was some tantrum a 4 year old would naturally do... 😢 Rhaenys and her little cat Balerion are some of my favorite super minor characters in ASoIaF. He still goes around the Red Keep looking for her, because he tried to save her but was defenestrated 🥲 (sometimes I like to hurt my own feelings making up headcanons)
My 2 main factors on judging which character is more evil are: 1 - Who takes more joy from making others suffer for the sake of it? 2 - Who is more dedicated on practicing it?
i absolutely adored this video! my only very small complaint is Nettles definition of a villain. while it’s true many villainous people are fully aware that what they’re doing is bad there is a section of villains that believe they are “the hero of their own story” in which what they’re doing is benefiting them/the world/their family etc. like tywin is a BAD guy but from his perspective he’s doing what he has to do for the realm or more importantly his family. sort of her explanation for blood raven.
I definitely see your perspective. Even if someone thinks they’re doing good (Melisandre), they can still be a villain. I agree. I think what I was trying to say is: since we have to choose between two people, the person who is doing bad and knows it’s bad, and still does it, is worse than the person who is thinks they’re doing good. In my opinion. This is the joy of human nature. Getting to rummage through people’s brains and seeing how different we all can be. I love it! Who do you think is still a villain even though they are the hero in their own story?
Tim's 'you can take out my organs but paws off my bank account' comment had me laughing. Nice one, Tim. Video idea: a summary discussion on the factors that make a villain, referring to ideas discussed in this stream. You all brought up interesting criteria for assessing who is the worst, and I'm sure there were other interesting points in the chat. All kinds of things to consider: how many victims, who are the victims, the degree of harm to the victims, redemption potential, trajectory, initiative/agency, etc. You could even try reaching out to the Vile Eye, if you wanted to involve someone who thinks of villainy a lot.
21:51 I think Jaime actually addresses that whole "well, the King commanded it!" point in the books (maybe it was the show? I dunno, I'm slightly tipsy). I seem to remember Jaime telling the Kingsguard after he became Lord Commander that Joffrey was a child, and they should use common sense--if Joffrey tells them to saddle his horse, do it. If he tells them to kill his horse, ask Jaime or his mom before just doing it. It really seems to me like that would go without saying anyway. A deal was brokered between Cersei and Ned with Varys as the go-between: Confess to treason and take the Black and bow out of Westeros politics forever, live out your days at Castle Black with Jon and Benjen, close to Winterfell where you can easily go visit your family, and Sansa will marry Joffrey and become Queen and everything will be cool. When Joff mouthed off and told Ser Ilynn to "bring me his head!", I'd think the first thing Ilynn would do is look at Cersei for confirmation, and the Hound would probably immediately hustle Joff away from the public eye. Then quickly Cersei and Pycelle and the other powers that be would make excuses about Joff's youth and exuberance and the crowd would probably be happy to accept that.
With Illyn I don't blame him for following Joffrey. His entire job is to do his work within a legal framework under the authority of the King. Technically Joffrey is the King and he was not made aware of any regency or authority so I don't blame him for following Joffrey. And, for all Illyn knows, Ned was a traitor and is being punished under the law
If Illyn was slow to kill Ned he may have been the next head on the block. If you’re an executioner the best thing you can do is make sure the roles don’t get reversed!
On Amory vs craster i think Amory is clearly more evil. My way of judging was how many things would have to go wrong for me to become the person, and while its quuuuuuite a few steps to where id pull a craster theres a full marathon past that to where id be Amory
Such a fun stream! Sad I missed this live to vote, but still so, so entertaining as a rewatch. Y’all knocked it out of the park, and the chat replay had me in stitches in between some truly excellent discussion. Love this fandom space!
Im only at the 1:32:07 mark but I would consider anyone who willingly breaks the rules of Death and does Necromancy to be on, just a different level of evil Thats breaking the rules of reality because you think you know BETTER than reality, and it’s a horrifying thing
This was such a great stream, which is saying A LOT considering the breadth of awesome content from David, et al. I’m super bummed I didn’t catch this in real time because I missed out on the chat and voting. 🙌🏼💯😆
Balon rejecting Theon is magnitudes worse when you consider it led directly to his heir losing his piece, and Euron being in a position to Kingsmoot. Like bro what were you thinking? You want Victarion or Euron in charge? You think Asha is gonna give you a bastard grandbaby and the King is gonna legitimize it as a Greyjoy? Balon saw his son once and essentially commited dynastic suicide and condemned the Iron Islands to civil strife if not war with itself. God he was frustrating.
Great point about Ilyn Payne. He can't communicate what he's thinking. Maybe inside he's like "this poor child I can't believe my duty has bound me to this behavior and such a monarch again. What kind of knight am I?" If I'm him and I'm told bring me head. I can argue. And I remember what happened last time I pissed off a king. I'm cutting Ser Ilyn slack from now on.
Is the very tip of that adorable black cat's tail ....a white spot? My vision isn't great, but my love of watching cats is. So I stared and stared at the fine furry fellow, and I kept thinking I saw a tiny white spot whizzing by as the tail whipped about.
Watching this afterwards finally and dang, David, we really need a wholesome Tourney next to recover from the dark place we went here! Some of the fun commentary and jokes really helped keep the atmosphere light and enjoyable instead of depressing and grim, which impressed me the longer the stream went, good job y'all!
Ngl loved the Qyburn v Mel discussion. It was very good and nettles made some valid points about him being a scientist! Y’all are so good and handle things very well considering the topics lol fantastic stream! Def one of my all-time favs
Cersei is evil as all hell, but Littlefinger is way worse imo. He's grooming Sansa, starting multiple wars, killing and trafficking innocent people, having people like Jon Arryn killed, all because he was an incel that never got to be with Catelyn Tully. Cersei is still evil as hell though, Littlefinger is just far worse in terms of what he's actually done. Similarly, there is almost no contest between Euron and Varamyr. Varamyr is an unbelievably vile piece of filth, and yet Euron is still worse. He abuses and murders multiple siblings, he impregnates Falia Flowers purely to cut out her tongue and then sacrifice Falia and the baby, he cuts off Pyat Prees legs and feeds them to the other Warlocks, he cuts out the tongues of his slaves on the Silence, and he willingly sacrifices innocent people consistently and in the most brutal ways, from his brother Aeron to Falia Flowers and their child to the slave that he has blow Dragonbinder and burn alive. Euron is, to me, an equivalent to unbelievably evil historical figures like Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan. I'd even argue that Euron is THE WORST person in all of ASoIaF, worse than Tywin, Amory Lorch, Gregor Clegane, Ramsey, and Maegor honestly. Overall, I've started to come to the conclusion that Book Euron is one of the most deplorable beings in all the different modern stories we have. He kinslays, blasphemes against all the gods that may or may not exist, tortures, mutilates, and all together just disgusts me. There's only a few characters I can even think of that reach that level of "I dislike them personally because they are evil." Morgoth and Sauron torturing Elves and Men into Orcs and the other twisted things they do, basically everything Palpatine does is evil as all hell, Darkseid and the Joker do some absolutely insane and twisted things to Superman, Batman, and Co., and now I regard Euron as part of that list as well. It's very hard for people to write such compelling villains that they are UNIVERSALLY regarded as evil as Euron is, although Ramsey and Tywin are very close to him
Euron is the winner of this dishonerable title, no contest. He is truly evil, committing rword, killings and maimings because it brings him joy. He is an insult to be called human... And maybe he is not anymore after his trip to Valeria?
This was so dope guys! I’m am up on my feet yelling at the TV. I hope George sees this cause I think he’ll be thoroughly entertained and pleased. But Thaddeus Rowan needs to be apart of this?!?!?
Tim is my favorite,so accurate debating, and cute additions, when he said about Rouse Bolton he is you know he is flaying ppl, just got me chuckle 🤭, this kinda debating is soo good idea!!!
There’s a lot made here of how bad slavery is, which is true and I totally agree. But is serfdom really that much better, isn’t Tywin also destroying people in his mines who toil only to be victimized by people like Lorch? It’s not like the small folk of Westeros are exactly free, Tyrion points this out when he’s briefly enslaved.
oh well you're not wrong about any of that, but it still doesn't make slavery any less horrific. I certainly could have included somebody like Weese, a low level petty authority figure. There's lots of him in such a society. But yeah Arya is also afraid Tywin might tear out her tongue. Tywin is a monster
Damn, that was really something else! Loved it! I was so happy to catch it live, just to fall asleep 10 min later 😅 the time shift others got to me 😭😭😭
Of course does not justify or absolve Mel's worst acts but at least her actions are towards helping save the world in her view. She has done a lot of bad with an appetite for even more but i'd view her ruthless actions similar to Bloodraven's as part of higher causes in their own views. In comparison to Qyburn / Qyburn's actions which are basically just to satisfy Q's own curiosities. Qyburn to me very much seems an example of science devoid of morality or humanism. Especially once we got Mel's POV there seems quite a bit more going on than previously thought. Also , Mel has showed some compassion and empathy at times ; with Davos trying to spare him for losing yet another child or checking on his well being while imprisoned (someone that wanted her dead no less). Mel even tried to stop Cressen from the poisoning incident that backfired on him , and when he died looked on him with "pity" not with malice , vengeance or anger ; even though it was an attempt from him to kill her. As i said does not absolve , justify or forgive what Mel has done and will continue to do in terms of violent ruthless actions. But Mel seems much more complicated and complex and at least her actions are towards saving the world in her view. GRRM has even said Mel is one of the most misunderstood characters in ASOIAF as well. Mel has done a lot of bad but Mel & her actions are much more complicated and require much more analysis than Qyburn and many others that made the bracket.
Melissandre is still technically a slave and has been brainwashed unlike Qyburn or the High Sparrow who both chose their paths... Heck Melissandre might actually be possessed in which case she's not entirely in control of her actions
@@soxpeewee she certainly has a very tragic back story and regardless I view her actions much more favorably , in service of saving the world in her view. Even if that means doing some very ruthless violent acts. I view her much more favorably than Qyburn or the High Sparrow.
Dude she is an anti-hero in my point of view, so is Tyrion Daenerys is an anti-hero with potential to become a villain and maybe the final boss of the books Tywin is an anti-villain, he does what seems to be the best for his family Aegon seems to be a good person Robert is a cynical Jaime an JonCon are broken men Ned, Jon, Arya, Tommen, Myrcella, Margaery, Davos, Sam, Robb are good person Doran, Victarion, Varys, Ilyrio are chaotic neutral Euron, Cersei, Vargo Hoat, Littlefinger, The Boltons, Amory Lorch, The Harpy, Qyburn, Walder Frey, Joffrey are true monsters
Great stream!!! I was working last night so just got to lurk. Team rewatch. Bloodraven is not a villian, he is constantly doing what he deems necessary and that's mostly bad stuff but it's mostly for the greater good. Olena Tyrell def gets a pass for killing Joffery. Qyburn is Doctor Krieger from Archer. Drogo is Rome. Can't deny the great things accomplished, even some tender, loving moments, but still a slaver... Loved this format! Liked the interactive chat, more like this in the future plz. Thanks Tim and Nettles, appreciate everything!
An equivalent to the Rains of Castamere would be Maegor and the Harroways, and Maegor was worse, because all the Reyns legitimately fought against the Lannisters (edit:made a mistake there, I thought the Reyne house consisted only of the rebellious lords at the time of their extinction. Nevertheless, the House did actually fight the Lannisters, the Harroways did not fight Maegor)
I'm almost through my rewatch and have to say that I enjoyed this much more than I initially expected, especially the constant discussion about what makes a villain villainous. Though there is no denying that scale is one very defining aspect here, the attributes that swayed me most were on a more personal level. Euron traumatizing his own brothers to that level feels more horrific than Tywin murdering the Reynes, who are basically strangers to him. The former is enjoying the pain and fear of people you know, the latter cold murder. And don't get me wrong, both are awful actions. I also found the discussion around Kraznys very eye opening, as I had never really thought about him as a character. And although I don't mean to defend the guy (he definitely is one of the worst people in the narrative, as all on the list were), it has to be said that people like Drogo are equally contributing to the slave trade by providing more slaves in the first place. The Dothraki's actions were somewhat excused though with it being part of their culture, while Kraznys is also acting within his Ghiscari culture without getting the same treatment. I am wondering where you guys see the difference, meaning: Is it even possible to excuse any action with it being part of a larger culture? The ones that were hard to pick really boiled down to who I fear more. People like Tywin or Roose, as threatening as they might be, seem to be somewhat predictable in their actions. Encountering Ramsay or Euron though - the sheer fact that I would have no idea what they would do to me, if I would be ignored or flayed on a whim or what else would fill me with fear. And then there is scale. If someone can translate that small scale horror into large scale tragedy, that person is truly the villain of villains. You know, like Euron. Or Hitler.
crazy how good this discussion is, huh? I realized it when we were prepping for the stream that it was going to be tasty, even though these people are so awful. The psychology is fascinating
Fine idea for a stream. Under literary consideration Tyrion is probably with Daenerys, and additionally John maybe, one of the main characters. I feel that he is far from being a villain. I am, of course, aware that Martin described him like this, but this is a common framing tactic for anti-heroes in postmodernist literature. I personally find the Dothraki in the setting of this world fine, but from a moral standpoint, they and Drogo would rank exactly high, though. Us judging them from the outside or not ;)
I wish I'd been here for the Ramsey/Tywin argument! Nobody bringing up that Nettles argument for Tywin is the same as saying Vader deserved to be saved because he really loved Padme. Vader killed a bunch of nameless younglings, but he would never kill his own son. CONGRATS NETTLES!
@@girlnettles I know you picked Ramsey, and they both are pretty horrible, but to me, Tywin edges him out. Something about being such a horrible evil and cruel person but still able to “play the part” and be a part of the function system. Something about being able to cause such damage but still hold so much power. To me, Ramsey is a terrible man, but a flash in the pan to what Tywin has been able to do. But I’m weird like that, I’m also one of the ones that hates Delores umbridge more than Voldemort in Harry Potter, but she uses the system to keep people down 😂
Bummed I missed seeing this live... just started watching but I am glad you put Theon on the villain list. Dude killed his own children AND betrayed the Starks AND, I know he was brainwashed and whatever, but he also betrayed the Ironborn at Moat Cailin and got them skinned alive!
Own personal opinion on a few of these from the stand point of a woman…any of these characters committing 🍇 automatically get my vote. Some form of justification can be at least argued for other crimes…as far as that goes however there isn’t a single piece of justification that can be had.
Aww man you forgot Darkstar!! But seriously, the top 3 was precisely what I expected. I wonder how high Littlefinger might have climbed had he not been pitted against Tywin.
David, are you familiar with Company of the Cat? It might be fun to have her on sometime - she possesses a keen mind and is very passionate about ASOIAF.
lol, she hates all my theories it seems like, from what I'm seeing of her videos. I don't think we'd have much to talk about. she doesn't believe the squishers are real, and doesn't believe the great empire of the dawn are Dragon Lords so I don't even feel like we're reading the same book
@@DavidLightbringer Oh, ok. I haven't detected any hate toward you or any of your stuff in any of her stuff. Has this all happened on social media? Nevermind, sorry I mentioned it. I didn't mean to offend.
I love you guys’ banter and debate. I love you guys together. (light bringer and nettles-great pod chemistry) But also Tywin is less villainous than Ramsay, guys cmon! Ramsay has less reach but Tywin has gaslit himself into the sadistic identity and actions he has while Ramsay outright identifies with and embraces every ounce of sadism. The fact that Tywin needs even a degree of deniability or separation in order to be ok with it whilst Ramsay doesn’t marks a clear difference I think. And I don’t think either is absolved. I just think removing any separation would stop some things for one of them that needs it while the other one would stop nothing.
She said it! I rather be alone in a room with Tywin over Ramsey. Ramsey delights in terror and fear.
Tywin is rational and only harms people when it benefits him.
That’s a really good litmus test: which one of these two people would you rather have alone in a room with your child?
@@johnracine4589 That is not a good litmus test at all. Who do think is more likely to harm you in a room alone, Adolf Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer? Now which one did the worse things to humanity?
Just thinking of that scenario is terrifying
Mm hmm, plus no matter how bad what tywin does is, he always has some type of justification, he has the goal of furthering his house and he’ll do anything to get it, ramsay is just sadistic for no reason
This stream was the most fun we've had since the Dunk and Egg read through! You guys never fail to make Sunday night's joyful! THANK YOU!🙏
Makes me think of tower of joy, which ironically is a very sad place
Awesome stream David, Nettles, and Tim. Creative format, I hope you don’t exhaust yourself spoiling your fans with this content!!!
watching you guys fighting over which person is worse than the other when all of them are just so damn gut wrenchingly aweful was … so much fun! ♥️
thank you all and especially @girlnettles for spicing things up 🔥 made me feel less awkward about yelling into my phone during the votings
hahaha this one was 🔥
Wild Tyrion gets bumped. Dude essentially uses napalm at the Blackwater to hold the throne his family usurped. I feel like that was a commentary on the US during Vietnam. Regardless this was super crazy and fun. Great idea.
Same! Plus, while David brought up the horrible way he treated Illyrio's bedslave and that bit was up there on the worst stuff George has written, MY mind went to the scene in Selhorys, where he buys a bedslave, uses her, throws up and makes a huge mess that he knows she is going to get whipped for, shrugs and uses her again. Like, that scene was HORRIBLE to read. His entire inner monologue in Dance is like... this guy is done with pretense, the full villainy is coming out.
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle Ya like the tribe has spoken and it's all I'm good but, I think Tyrion is gonna turn out to be a major villain in the last part of the series. If we believe the Tyrion Targaryen stuff, he is Dany's half brother, and he has Azor Ahai stuff going on all throughout his story. Just over and over, and Dany is obviously the Amethyst Empress. Idk exactly what's gonna happen, but I feel confident Tyrion is going to be the "Mad King" figure. He will be both Tywin and Aerys true son. The monster.
@@Quirkus23I actually don't subscribe to the Tyrion Targaryen theory (I'm a Lannister twins are secret targs believer, it's just more poetic to me that Tyrion would be Tywin's ONLY true son) but I FIRMLY believe he's about to become a major villain too, I think you're spot on
Tyrion uses wildfire in a war, against soldiers. The US used Napalm on the Vietnamese population, Women and children.
@sinthoras1917 Splitting hairs imo, I imagine GRRM is making a commentary on the use of chemical weapons in general. The Lannisters have usurped the throne and they defend it with chemical warfare.
I would also like to mention the Broken Man speech where George makes it clear the soldiers in these wars are being used by the nobility. The use of chemical warfare is a war crime for a reason and in my opinion anyone who uses it is a villian.
*It's crazy to realize that Ramsay is actually worse than Tywin. Tywin is a man who loved Joanna, always wanted to keep the family together and lead House Lannister to glory, even though he knows he cannot be merciful and clearly was transformed after Joanna's death, seeing Tyrion as the dwarf son (perhaps of the Mad King) who took away from him the only person who made him smile, Joanna Lannister. With power, Ramsay is definitely worse than Tywin. Tywin is a strategic enemy who knows when to make allies and when to kill his enemies, but Ramsay is chaos. Just Euron (from the books) can be worse, scarier and more chaotic than Ramsay and Tywin.*
the always sunny dennis skit comparison to roose bolton is gold well played tim, great vid love the idea of comparing the bad guys
Despite the subject matter this was probably my favorite stream from y'all. Would love to see more streams like this in a similar format. Love Girlnettles and Tim. The true three heads of the dragon!
Great stream , really fun and interactive.
I expected Euron to come on top of this bracket. Euron is hard to top in terms of villainy ; literally wants to destroy the world and rule over the ashes. Euron has engaged in many an atrocity both within and outside his own family. Ramsay revels in his own atrocities and cruelty but Euron does them so scarily casually seemingly with little hesitation and of course no remorse. Euron's impending massive blood sacrifice will likely dwarf nearly any other atrocity. Euron would not hesitate doing just about anything in pursuit of his aims. And just look at Euron's crew , thats one big atrocity in itself ; silenced , in constant traumatized fear. I would expect Euron likely tortures his crew via skin-changing into them as well (if he is capable , which i suspect he is) ; and with the crew being mute and illiterate have no recourse to even inform anyone of their plight. They are stuck in that cycle of trauma and torture.
Euron seems a true psychopath and evil incarnate , with literally the worst aspirations (destroying the world). EG is very hard to top in terms of worst villains in the ASOIAF universe.
Loved the audience polling
Euron is a great villain. So is the Joker.
@@saraseveryn8650 did you see the 2019 version with Joaquin ?
@BigboiiTone Actually, no, but I need to! Did you enjoy the Joker's characterization?
@@saraseveryn8650 I felt like it accomplished its apparent goal of pointing out society's flaw of alienating the people who need help. It might have been a bit hamfisted doing that at times but I still think it's a good movie that was made by people who are genuinely concerned
Wait, Princess Rhaenys was WHAT
I've always thought "the kicking" was some tantrum a 4 year old would naturally do... 😢
Rhaenys and her little cat Balerion are some of my favorite super minor characters in ASoIaF. He still goes around the Red Keep looking for her, because he tried to save her but was defenestrated 🥲 (sometimes I like to hurt my own feelings making up headcanons)
Are we going to do a “Sweetest little angel babies” bracket? Who is the most innocent in all of Westeros and why is it Ser Pounce?
I've been thinking of a couple different ideas to do another tournament for sure. favorite characters, best fighters, sexiest people, stuff like that
@@DavidLightbringer Sexiest squishers? Hosted by Nimble Dick?
@@DavidLightbringerso, Oberyn?
This stream slew
10/10
My 2 main factors on judging which character is more evil are:
1 - Who takes more joy from making others suffer for the sake of it?
2 - Who is more dedicated on practicing it?
Agreed 100%
I couldn’t care less about how much they enjoy tbh
i absolutely adored this video! my only very small complaint is Nettles definition of a villain. while it’s true many villainous people are fully aware that what they’re doing is bad there is a section of villains that believe they are “the hero of their own story” in which what they’re doing is benefiting them/the world/their family etc. like tywin is a BAD guy but from his perspective he’s doing what he has to do for the realm or more importantly his family. sort of her explanation for blood raven.
i do want to say i loved having all three of you together, prob my favorite group of asoiaf youtubers :))
I definitely see your perspective. Even if someone thinks they’re doing good (Melisandre), they can still be a villain. I agree.
I think what I was trying to say is: since we have to choose between two people, the person who is doing bad and knows it’s bad, and still does it, is worse than the person who is thinks they’re doing good. In my opinion.
This is the joy of human nature. Getting to rummage through people’s brains and seeing how different we all can be. I love it!
Who do you think is still a villain even though they are the hero in their own story?
I missed some surprising poll results when I was cooking. I gotta look at chat as I rewatch for some explanations on some of these :p
Tim's 'you can take out my organs but paws off my bank account' comment had me laughing. Nice one, Tim.
Video idea: a summary discussion on the factors that make a villain, referring to ideas discussed in this stream. You all brought up interesting criteria for assessing who is the worst, and I'm sure there were other interesting points in the chat. All kinds of things to consider: how many victims, who are the victims, the degree of harm to the victims, redemption potential, trajectory, initiative/agency, etc.
You could even try reaching out to the Vile Eye, if you wanted to involve someone who thinks of villainy a lot.
21:51 I think Jaime actually addresses that whole "well, the King commanded it!" point in the books (maybe it was the show? I dunno, I'm slightly tipsy). I seem to remember Jaime telling the Kingsguard after he became Lord Commander that Joffrey was a child, and they should use common sense--if Joffrey tells them to saddle his horse, do it. If he tells them to kill his horse, ask Jaime or his mom before just doing it.
It really seems to me like that would go without saying anyway. A deal was brokered between Cersei and Ned with Varys as the go-between: Confess to treason and take the Black and bow out of Westeros politics forever, live out your days at Castle Black with Jon and Benjen, close to Winterfell where you can easily go visit your family, and Sansa will marry Joffrey and become Queen and everything will be cool. When Joff mouthed off and told Ser Ilynn to "bring me his head!", I'd think the first thing Ilynn would do is look at Cersei for confirmation, and the Hound would probably immediately hustle Joff away from the public eye. Then quickly Cersei and Pycelle and the other powers that be would make excuses about Joff's youth and exuberance and the crowd would probably be happy to accept that.
With Illyn I don't blame him for following Joffrey. His entire job is to do his work within a legal framework under the authority of the King. Technically Joffrey is the King and he was not made aware of any regency or authority so I don't blame him for following Joffrey. And, for all Illyn knows, Ned was a traitor and is being punished under the law
Illyn is also drunk and kinda insane most of the time...
If Illyn was slow to kill Ned he may have been the next head on the block. If you’re an executioner the best thing you can do is make sure the roles don’t get reversed!
AMAZING stream - great idea :)
Khall drogo is honestly way worse than Miri. Miri pretty much killed baby Gengis khan is that really a bad thing
I mean that's why this series is good... makes you think
Did she though? She told Danerys what would happen and we don't actually have proof the child would have survived what with wings and a tail, etc.
That's like saying Gregor killed baby Maegor the Cruel.
On Amory vs craster i think Amory is clearly more evil. My way of judging was how many things would have to go wrong for me to become the person, and while its quuuuuuite a few steps to where id pull a craster theres a full marathon past that to where id be Amory
I like this criteria. “How many steps to get to being this person” 🤔
You are a super big brain! I like that a lot.
@@girlnettles lol thank you, it just made it easier to judge across the board
Such a fun stream! Sad I missed this live to vote, but still so, so entertaining as a rewatch. Y’all knocked it out of the park, and the chat replay had me in stitches in between some truly excellent discussion. Love this fandom space!
Im only at the 1:32:07 mark but I would consider anyone who willingly breaks the rules of Death and does Necromancy to be on, just a different level of evil
Thats breaking the rules of reality because you think you know BETTER than reality, and it’s a horrifying thing
agree
Hard agree! Necromancy is playing the Gods game. You will lose your humanity in the process
This was such a great stream, which is saying A LOT considering the breadth of awesome content from David, et al. I’m super bummed I didn’t catch this in real time because I missed out on the chat and voting. 🙌🏼💯😆
I'm glad it ended Euron and Ramsey. I think they're definitely the ones sold to you as the villains of the story.
Wow, that was a fantastic stream!!!!
Balon rejecting Theon is magnitudes worse when you consider it led directly to his heir losing his piece, and Euron being in a position to Kingsmoot. Like bro what were you thinking? You want Victarion or Euron in charge? You think Asha is gonna give you a bastard grandbaby and the King is gonna legitimize it as a Greyjoy? Balon saw his son once and essentially commited dynastic suicide and condemned the Iron Islands to civil strife if not war with itself. God he was frustrating.
Great point about Ilyn Payne. He can't communicate what he's thinking. Maybe inside he's like "this poor child I can't believe my duty has bound me to this behavior and such a monarch again. What kind of knight am I?"
If I'm him and I'm told bring me head. I can argue. And I remember what happened last time I pissed off a king. I'm cutting Ser Ilyn slack from now on.
You can’t spell Maegor without OG!
Is the very tip of that adorable black cat's tail ....a white spot?
My vision isn't great, but my love of watching cats is. So I stared and stared at the fine furry fellow, and I kept thinking I saw a tiny white spot whizzing by as the tail whipped about.
Craster supplying babies to the Others is literally a crime against humanity.
This channel needs more of girl nettles she always brings a fresh take on things.
🥰🥰
I feel like I've watched all your videos. This is one of the best streams I've seen in awhile. More like it please.
Watching this afterwards finally and dang, David, we really need a wholesome Tourney next to recover from the dark place we went here! Some of the fun commentary and jokes really helped keep the atmosphere light and enjoyable instead of depressing and grim, which impressed me the longer the stream went, good job y'all!
Ngl loved the Qyburn v Mel discussion. It was very good and nettles made some valid points about him being a scientist! Y’all are so good and handle things very well considering the topics lol fantastic stream! Def one of my all-time favs
Cersei is evil as all hell, but Littlefinger is way worse imo. He's grooming Sansa, starting multiple wars, killing and trafficking innocent people, having people like Jon Arryn killed, all because he was an incel that never got to be with Catelyn Tully. Cersei is still evil as hell though, Littlefinger is just far worse in terms of what he's actually done.
Similarly, there is almost no contest between Euron and Varamyr. Varamyr is an unbelievably vile piece of filth, and yet Euron is still worse. He abuses and murders multiple siblings, he impregnates Falia Flowers purely to cut out her tongue and then sacrifice Falia and the baby, he cuts off Pyat Prees legs and feeds them to the other Warlocks, he cuts out the tongues of his slaves on the Silence, and he willingly sacrifices innocent people consistently and in the most brutal ways, from his brother Aeron to Falia Flowers and their child to the slave that he has blow Dragonbinder and burn alive. Euron is, to me, an equivalent to unbelievably evil historical figures like Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan. I'd even argue that Euron is THE WORST person in all of ASoIaF, worse than Tywin, Amory Lorch, Gregor Clegane, Ramsey, and Maegor honestly.
Overall, I've started to come to the conclusion that Book Euron is one of the most deplorable beings in all the different modern stories we have. He kinslays, blasphemes against all the gods that may or may not exist, tortures, mutilates, and all together just disgusts me. There's only a few characters I can even think of that reach that level of "I dislike them personally because they are evil." Morgoth and Sauron torturing Elves and Men into Orcs and the other twisted things they do, basically everything Palpatine does is evil as all hell, Darkseid and the Joker do some absolutely insane and twisted things to Superman, Batman, and Co., and now I regard Euron as part of that list as well. It's very hard for people to write such compelling villains that they are UNIVERSALLY regarded as evil as Euron is, although Ramsey and Tywin are very close to him
Euron is the winner of this dishonerable title, no contest. He is truly evil, committing rword, killings and maimings because it brings him joy. He is an insult to be called human... And maybe he is not anymore after his trip to Valeria?
you make a lot of good points, i wanna add one thing in favour of cersei being "worse", she supplied qyburn with so many victims!
Aria killing the Tickler is cathartic and utmostly tragic "How many? How many? How many!? Was there gold hidden in the village?"
This is awesome ❤ I’m sad I missed it live but am still loving the replay. Thanks David, Nettles, & Tim!
This was so dope guys! I’m am up on my feet yelling at the TV. I hope George sees this cause I think he’ll be thoroughly entertained and pleased. But Thaddeus Rowan needs to be apart of this?!?!?
😂😂
This stream was Awesome! Your creativity never fails to delight David. Thanks guys.
Ahhh, kiddies, remember the days of posting music to your profiles? 😂 Nana Vhagar, you're tired, go home.
Tim is my favorite,so accurate debating, and cute additions, when he said about Rouse Bolton he is you know he is flaying ppl, just got me chuckle 🤭, this kinda debating is soo good idea!!!
There’s a lot made here of how bad slavery is, which is true and I totally agree. But is serfdom really that much better, isn’t Tywin also destroying people in his mines who toil only to be victimized by people like Lorch? It’s not like the small folk of Westeros are exactly free, Tyrion points this out when he’s briefly enslaved.
oh well you're not wrong about any of that, but it still doesn't make slavery any less horrific. I certainly could have included somebody like Weese, a low level petty authority figure. There's lots of him in such a society. But yeah Arya is also afraid Tywin might tear out her tongue. Tywin is a monster
Love the idea of doing a best fighters tournament, this format was definitely an A+
Tickler was killed in Harrenhal in the show, Polliver at the Inn when the Hound and Arya took out like 10 dudes
And consumed over 30 chickens.
DavidReadsAsoiaf has an amazing reading of that chapter on UA-cam. Arya crashes out crazy at the end!
Damn, that was really something else! Loved it! I was so happy to catch it live, just to fall asleep 10 min later 😅 the time shift others got to me 😭😭😭
Thanks for keeping us book readers entertained!
Of course does not justify or absolve Mel's worst acts but at least her actions are towards helping save the world in her view. She has done a lot of bad with an appetite for even more but i'd view her ruthless actions similar to Bloodraven's as part of higher causes in their own views. In comparison to Qyburn / Qyburn's actions which are basically just to satisfy Q's own curiosities. Qyburn to me very much seems an example of science devoid of morality or humanism. Especially once we got Mel's POV there seems quite a bit more going on than previously thought. Also , Mel has showed some compassion and empathy at times ; with Davos trying to spare him for losing yet another child or checking on his well being while imprisoned (someone that wanted her dead no less). Mel even tried to stop Cressen from the poisoning incident that backfired on him , and when he died looked on him with "pity" not with malice , vengeance or anger ; even though it was an attempt from him to kill her.
As i said does not absolve , justify or forgive what Mel has done and will continue to do in terms of violent ruthless actions. But Mel seems much more complicated and complex and at least her actions are towards saving the world in her view. GRRM has even said Mel is one of the most misunderstood characters in ASOIAF as well. Mel has done a lot of bad but Mel & her actions are much more complicated and require much more analysis than Qyburn and many others that made the bracket.
Melissandre is still technically a slave and has been brainwashed unlike Qyburn or the High Sparrow who both chose their paths...
Heck Melissandre might actually be possessed in which case she's not entirely in control of her actions
@@soxpeewee she certainly has a very tragic back story and regardless I view her actions much more favorably , in service of saving the world in her view. Even if that means doing some very ruthless violent acts. I view her much more favorably than Qyburn or the High Sparrow.
Dude she is an anti-hero in my point of view, so is Tyrion
Daenerys is an anti-hero with potential to become a villain and maybe the final boss of the books
Tywin is an anti-villain, he does what seems to be the best for his family
Aegon seems to be a good person
Robert is a cynical
Jaime an JonCon are broken men
Ned, Jon, Arya, Tommen, Myrcella, Margaery, Davos, Sam, Robb are good person
Doran, Victarion, Varys, Ilyrio are chaotic neutral
Euron, Cersei, Vargo Hoat, Littlefinger, The Boltons, Amory Lorch, The Harpy, Qyburn, Walder Frey, Joffrey are true monsters
Thank. You David, nettles and Tim you are all fantastic!
Triple team of great channels
Absolutely loved this!! Side note, Nettles is so classy, what an awesome lady.
Nettles brings up a lot of good points. Will look for more of her.
she's awesome check out her channel!
Jon con is a Bloody Mary! That dastardly fool.. And he is a jerk too lol that cracked me up
Do you mean Typhoid Mary
@@soxpeewee Ooops yes!
If D&D were in charge of this then Stannis would somehow have been a finalist.
This was so fun! Sad I missed the live voting but that just makes me more determined to try and catch the next one 🤞
This was such a fun watch! I wish I knew about this channel back then. I'd have loved to vote on these polls even though it seems very tough XDD
If i had two bullets and I were in a room with Tywin, Joffrey, and Littlefinger, I would shoot Tywin twice.
Great stream y'all 🎉
Ahahahahahahaahahaha
GirlNettles was awesome lol
Great stream!!! I was working last night so just got to lurk. Team rewatch.
Bloodraven is not a villian, he is constantly doing what he deems necessary and that's mostly bad stuff but it's mostly for the greater good.
Olena Tyrell def gets a pass for killing Joffery.
Qyburn is Doctor Krieger from Archer.
Drogo is Rome. Can't deny the great things accomplished, even some tender, loving moments, but still a slaver...
Loved this format! Liked the interactive chat, more like this in the future plz. Thanks Tim and Nettles, appreciate everything!
This was hard to choose so many awful people in George's world.
I'm sad I missed this live. One of the most fun streams!
Def gotta move harmma to villains. 1 dog a day !! Yikes
One dog every 2 weeks. 1 a day would be too much, from logistics perspective
It took me too long to realise the R word was that R word and not the R word that rhythms with regarded
😂 OMG I can't 💀
An equivalent to the Rains of Castamere would be Maegor and the Harroways, and Maegor was worse, because all the Reyns legitimately fought against the Lannisters (edit:made a mistake there, I thought the Reyne house consisted only of the rebellious lords at the time of their extinction. Nevertheless, the House did actually fight the Lannisters, the Harroways did not fight Maegor)
I was able to pop in a couple times live and vote. Stoked to watch it now tho
I'm almost through my rewatch and have to say that I enjoyed this much more than I initially expected, especially the constant discussion about what makes a villain villainous.
Though there is no denying that scale is one very defining aspect here, the attributes that swayed me most were on a more personal level. Euron traumatizing his own brothers to that level feels more horrific than Tywin murdering the Reynes, who are basically strangers to him. The former is enjoying the pain and fear of people you know, the latter cold murder. And don't get me wrong, both are awful actions.
I also found the discussion around Kraznys very eye opening, as I had never really thought about him as a character. And although I don't mean to defend the guy (he definitely is one of the worst people in the narrative, as all on the list were), it has to be said that people like Drogo are equally contributing to the slave trade by providing more slaves in the first place. The Dothraki's actions were somewhat excused though with it being part of their culture, while Kraznys is also acting within his Ghiscari culture without getting the same treatment. I am wondering where you guys see the difference, meaning: Is it even possible to excuse any action with it being part of a larger culture?
The ones that were hard to pick really boiled down to who I fear more. People like Tywin or Roose, as threatening as they might be, seem to be somewhat predictable in their actions. Encountering Ramsay or Euron though - the sheer fact that I would have no idea what they would do to me, if I would be ignored or flayed on a whim or what else would fill me with fear.
And then there is scale. If someone can translate that small scale horror into large scale tragedy, that person is truly the villain of villains. You know, like Euron. Or Hitler.
crazy how good this discussion is, huh? I realized it when we were prepping for the stream that it was going to be tasty, even though these people are so awful. The psychology is fascinating
This was excellent! Thank you to everybody involved!
Love seeing Nettles on this stream! Looking forward to seeing more of her on these streams
😊 🤗 💕
Love the chemistry between y’all three. More heroes/fighters/politician/etc brackets would great
Fine idea for a stream. Under literary consideration Tyrion is probably with Daenerys, and additionally John maybe, one of the main characters. I feel that he is far from being a villain. I am, of course, aware that Martin described him like this, but this is a common framing tactic for anti-heroes in postmodernist literature. I personally find the Dothraki in the setting of this world fine, but from a moral standpoint, they and Drogo would rank exactly high, though. Us judging them from the outside or not ;)
Huge potential in that concept & great co-hosts (=
Im so sad I missed this live. qq
An hour in and I cannot believe Arya is not on the dishonourable mentions list.
Very fun episode here guy!!
This needs to be a debate. I love you guys.
What an awesome stream! Thanks guys!
I wish I'd been here for the Ramsey/Tywin argument! Nobody bringing up that Nettles argument for Tywin is the same as saying Vader deserved to be saved because he really loved Padme. Vader killed a bunch of nameless younglings, but he would never kill his own son. CONGRATS NETTLES!
yeah it was a pretty crazy discussion
Awesome format, great work all of you
Watched this 5 days after release. A great viewing.
I’m so upset I fell asleep before the Tywin/ramsey battle! Ugh!!! lol
Who would you vote as most villainous and why? I want to know your opinion! 👂
@@girlnettles I know you picked Ramsey, and they both are pretty horrible, but to me, Tywin edges him out. Something about being such a horrible evil and cruel person but still able to “play the part” and be a part of the function system. Something about being able to cause such damage but still hold so much power. To me, Ramsey is a terrible man, but a flash in the pan to what Tywin has been able to do. But I’m weird like that, I’m also one of the ones that hates Delores umbridge more than Voldemort in Harry Potter, but she uses the system to keep people down 😂
@@leilaorton Umbridge must die. I agree with you on that 🤣😂
Really enjoy you guys together great energy, thank you
Bummed I missed seeing this live... just started watching but I am glad you put Theon on the villain list. Dude killed his own children AND betrayed the Starks AND, I know he was brainwashed and whatever, but he also betrayed the Ironborn at Moat Cailin and got them skinned alive!
I disagree that the Miller’s wife’s kids were his
I never thought I'd hear: Walder Frey, vibe cultivator
Love you, Girl Nettles! It's so nice to see you as always ❤
Man I love these streams. Thank you guys
Great stream all in all. I just wanted to say you can make the assumption that George implies that little finger convinced joffrey to kill Ned,
Upset Gregor wins for sure if not potentially Bloodraven
Crimes crimes crimes!!
Own personal opinion on a few of these from the stand point of a woman…any of these characters committing 🍇 automatically get my vote. Some form of justification can be at least argued for other crimes…as far as that goes however there isn’t a single piece of justification that can be had.
Aww man you forgot Darkstar!! But seriously, the top 3 was precisely what I expected. I wonder how high Littlefinger might have climbed had he not been pitted against Tywin.
3:16:45 sausage! hahahaha who's sausage? my own??
great stream! lots fun lol
Tim, you always being such a great intellect. you are lowkey funny as well haha
This is fun. Love the debate of Ramsey/Tywin
Just got a chance to watch..I agree with Nettles about Cersei...you forgot to list "raised Joffrey" on her list of crimes.
Great stream best so far made my week
David, are you familiar with Company of the Cat? It might be fun to have her on sometime - she possesses a keen mind and is very passionate about ASOIAF.
lol, she hates all my theories it seems like, from what I'm seeing of her videos. I don't think we'd have much to talk about. she doesn't believe the squishers are real, and doesn't believe the great empire of the dawn are Dragon Lords so I don't even feel like we're reading the same book
@@DavidLightbringer Oh, ok. I haven't detected any hate toward you or any of your stuff in any of her stuff. Has this all happened on social media? Nevermind, sorry I mentioned it. I didn't mean to offend.
Tywin also was complicant in making Jayne Westerling basically barren when Robb was alive
this stream is incredible
Nettles forgot about Reek 1, Ramsay’s Joanna. He loved him and he made him smile and happy.
I love you guys’ banter and debate. I love you guys together. (light bringer and nettles-great pod chemistry)
But also Tywin is less villainous than Ramsay, guys cmon! Ramsay has less reach but Tywin has gaslit himself into the sadistic identity and actions he has while Ramsay outright identifies with and embraces every ounce of sadism. The fact that Tywin needs even a degree of deniability or separation in order to be ok with it whilst Ramsay doesn’t marks a clear difference I think.
And I don’t think either is absolved. I just think removing any separation would stop some things for one of them that needs it while the other one would stop nothing.
Gregor feeds his prisoner to his other prisoners. Aerys just burned them. But did not give them out as meal.
everybody wanna hate qyburn till they benefit from his discoveries...preach nettles