I've come to completely disagree with the narrative that Ned was too naive or honorable to survive in the south. Ned was in no way incompetent he was just late. By the time he arrived the Lannisters were already making attempts on Robert's life. And despite having to rely on uncertain allies like Little Finger & Varys, Ned uncovered Cersi's treachery and had a plan to deal with Tywin and Jamie in the Riverlands. But before he could report Cersi's treachery to Robert, Robert was killed. And before his bannermen could assemble and march south to confront the Lannister army ravaging the Riverlands Little Finger double crossed him. Not to mention the machinations of Little Finger and Varys which were also well underway by the time Ned arrived. And the bad luck of Catelyn running into Tyrion at the crossroads, instigating her diversion into the Vale and delaying her carrying Ned's order to call his banners.
that's fair, and it's been argued George's writing is sort of forcing the plot here, a serious of very unfortunate timing things that lead to his death, as you say. I actually fault Ned for not maintaining any sort of contacts or intelligence in KL to keep abreast of what's going on. He left it to Jon Arryn and King Robert and then was shocked to see how bad things were when he got there
@@DavidLightbringerYeah I will concede he should have handled Cersi differently. As Hand of the King Ned had the authority to arrest Cersi for treason on Robert's behalf as soon as he found proof of her adultery. And if he wanted to protect the children from Robert, he could have sent them to Essos before Robert returned from hunting. If Robert survived he would have been pissed. But the worst thing he would likely have done would've been to remove Ned as Hand and send him back North. If he made his move while Robert was alive Renly would have backed him up, which would have given him enough men to overwhelm the Lannister soldiers in the Red Keep without having to rely on Little Finger. None of these moves could've saved Robert, but they would have saved Ned and all but ensured that he, Stannis, and Renly could have defeated the rest of the Lannisters in the Riverlands. I'm also confident that if Ned had been alive to support Stannis' claim Renly would never have had the balls to make his own claim.
Ned in King's Landing was the definition of a bull in a China shop and I believe GRRM wrote it to be perceived that way. Ned's biggest character flaw is not plain stupidity or naivety or extreme honesty. It is a relentless expectation that people in general will follow rules and defer to authority. "Well I'm the Hand now so they have to do what I say." No they don't Ned. Telegraphing his plans to Cersei was not just stupidity, naivety, or mercy. It bordered on self-destructive psychotic behavior. It was an extreme miscalculation. Renly recognizes that Ned has shifted from stubbornness to a totally new level of refusing-to-accept-reality. We, the readers, are meant to mirror Renly's disbelief and exasperation in that moment.
@@DavidLightbringercersie plan to kill Robert was already underway and ned isnt omnipotent ned also knows Robert has been hunting thousands of times before why would he believe that time Robert was going to die
The throne, i think, is often overlooked. Half way through so I don't know if it's mentioned, but the in-book description and the concept art of the Iron Throne makes it a big monstrous thing that took deliberate effort to climb up to and be found seated on, you can google accurate depictions. It's almost a few stories tall, jagged and sharp, with uneven and chaotic steps to the seat. Jamie sitting on the throne in the show would be no big deal, but Jamie sitting on the throne in the books is clearly an act of some crazy egotistical theatrics. Nedd and the reader are completely justified in thinking Jamie is a tool at best and villain at worst, especially pre the main story.
Ned always stuck me as a guy who was skeptical of the magic/prophecy in the world -- not because he didn't believe it was real, but because he is terrified that it might be real.
Ned suffers for, and keeps the secrets of others, while the Lannisters make others suffer for their own secrets and desires. And Robert puts his pleasure before duty, while Ned puts honor and duty before even his own family, until he falsely confesses and sacrifices himself, his honor,(as he did with Jon) in duty to his family, and dies figuratively and actually.
@@prairieskyethank you, from what I can tell grrm creates a weave of traits, archetypes, arc types and events with parallels, preconfigurations, and dichotomies.
Ned didn't prioritize his honor. He didn't even consider himself that honorouble. He just thinks that children should not be put in danger because he was traumatized when he saw thw Targ kids corpses. Cause he played a hand in their deaths all for his revenge.
There have to be few who still know a few secrets alongside that Ned knew. Probably Howland Reed and Baby Benjen. Maybe even a few more people at Starfall.
@@travismcnasty51 Of course ! But people he couldn't risk to contact by raven and letters. And he can't go to them physically either. Even Benjen is far away. At winterfell he was alone, watching Jon grew around his kids and seeing how difficult it is for him and Catelyn who don't know the truth.
I think Ned's isolationist/stick to the north & stay out of southern politics was #1 because of Jon & #2 he was disgusted with Robert over the sack of KL, the rape & murder of Rhaegar's family & his alliance with Tywin/The Lannisters #3 the tragic & cruel deaths of his sister, brother & father probably threw water on any romantic ideas of honor in warfare/combat. The north was just different culturally & he could deal with the devil he knew there(aka the politics & alliances of his countrymen) so it wasn't a bad strategy initially. He really should have stayed in the loop about KL via the spy/gossip hotline for extra safety for his family but I totally get being so soured on an experience you never want to think about it again & just put it in the rear view mirror. His biggest flaw was assuming if he treated others with respect, honesty & compassion they would be appreciative & recipricate in kind. KL was a pit of vipers he just wasn't prepared for.
Ned must’ve developed some serious trauma from Roberts Rebellion. And it’s hard to blame him… Rickard and Brandon, Lyanna and Jon, as well as the lie… Plus Benjen joins the Watch shortly thereafter. War made men out of the boys lucky enough to survive… On the subject of Ned’s trauma though… he seemed to really regress. It’s like he thought if he kept his entire family in Winterfell they would never be unsafe. To the point where Sansa is completely unequipped to deal with anything. Ned is a good man. But like all parents he failed his children in ways he perhaps should’ve seen, but ultimately didn’t.
But Sansa's naivete is from being raised by a Southron wife of privilege and Septas who taught her to be a lady and to "arm herself in courtesy and charm". I don't blame Ned for that. I'm sure he tried to instill some Northern sensibilities in her, but at her age, she likely put more importance in the social construct she was expected to be a part of.
LML mentioned that Ned may have adopted Jon Arryn's politics - what are the politics of the Vale that we see? Shore up in the Eyrie to protect your family.
Kinda nonsense. No 11 year is old equipped to deal with any situations listed. Arya isn't dealing with it either, she just happens to be a murderous sociopath who thrives in violence.
@@DavidLightbringer These credible musings are truly the nooks and crannies of this series. So satisfying to fill them in and go back for additional bites!
I always noted that Robert made me think of the way they describe Brandon in the books. It was never put quite that explicity in the text but I also got a feel that Robert reminded Ned of Brandon, both good and bad.
Ned’s bones won’t be laid to rest until his children all come together I’m not sure if that’s a metaphorical thing or a physical thing but I feel like all of neds worldly business and regrets are symbolized in his bones and once his children have fulfilled them he can rest in peace
This fits with a comment @Karl Karlsnark made about how many religions have beliefs around the possibility for resurrection if all of someone's bones can be kept together. His children being all together and remembering him (WWND) would work together to highlight his memory living on, and as a type of resurrection/last cohesion of Ned's life and legacy.
Yeah, he didn't know her _that_ well when he first got back with Jon, and seeing how she treated him...I'd be worried if I told her, what if shed get sick of people thinking he was unfaithful to her, and shed spill it to someone
And just all the reasons one might not think of at the time... how about if Catelyn made a statement that inadvertently caused someone to start questioning things.... and that leads to a secret being uncovered. Even with good intent, accidents happen.
Agreed. A fish that keeps its mouth closed never gets hooked.. al Capone was talking about bragging after commiting crimes but I think it still fits with ned
yep, for all he knew she would've still disliked Jon, just for him not being a bastard but for being a threat to her children and the reason the war started. Of course she disliked Jon for Ned's infidelity, but Ned didn't know that, Ned probably thought that if she hated the fact he cheated she would blame him and not the child, because Ned himself is the kind of person who doesn't blame children for parent's crimes. Some say he should've told her Jon is Brandon's, but Catelyn would probably fear Jon even more thinking that he could be used to overthrow her children. And if she knew about the targ stuff, I could somewhat imagine a scene where Robb wants to name Jon his heir and Catelyn, to emotional to think, goes "no you can't do it, he is a targaryen!!" in front of northern lords. Not saying she is overly emotional because she is a woman. It's just her personal trait, to think with her heart rather than brain when her children are involved. Jaime proves it.
I loved how Jon and Rob both simultaneously took a man's life in the style Ned did. Both simply because their "father" raised them to act in honor if required to take a man's life. Never pass the deed on like a coward.
I always feel like when people take the stance that Ned was ruthless enough or was 'honorable to a fault', they're really selling him short. He was incredibly intelligent and an excellent detective. He was just surrounded by enemies on all sides. That's what it took to take him down.
When it comes to the "Shadow" of Ned, you have to remember, that he is a Stark! A Stark, one of the liniage that keeps the north together for over 8000 years, the kings in the north, the last ones to bow to aegon the conquerer. The Starks, who fight giants and things beyond the wall. who can trace their liniage back by their dead in their crypt. The ones who maybe the most myth and legends surrounding them, not to forget the location geographically. they are in the north. noone comes there, and noone leaves. The legends that circle the north and must be enough in the south to make children shake in fear when they are told bedtime storys. And than you meet Ned, a guy who has killed one of the greatest fighters that ever lived, who doesnt talk much but instead stares at you with ice cold piercing eyes. I mean, would you fuck with a guy like that?!
3:57 Oz, another HBO series from the mid-90s did this also. The only difference is that it happens in the first episode! You meet one prison inmate and you start to feel empathy for him. He's killed for a stupid reason about 4/5ths of the way through the pilot and it's sad. That was when I had a similar moment of realisation that no one was safe and that life was cheap. Knowing this from the start greatly enhanced the feelings of horror, terror and despair the viewer is pummled with for the rest of the series.
Everyone always talks about how Ned Stark's "honor" is what got him killed. But the reality is that he wasn't put to death until AFTER he publicly lied and admitted to treason (in hopes of saving his children.) It was the sacrifice of his honor for his children that killed him.
The honour point is that if he'd acted less honourably - if he'd seized power instead of giving Cersei the chance to flee - he never would've been in that situation.
His honor killed him. He should have announced to the world that those kids were bastards. But his honor (and probably on some level Jon’s hidden parentage) lead to him warning Cersei and making no public proclamations about the children (which as Regeant he had the ability to do). Neds children died because Ned’s honor wouldn’t allow him to harm children.
One child died. And that one by fault of Catelyn not Ned. not children plural, they're all alive but Robb. and he wouldnt even. be in that situation if ti wasnt for catelyn's stupidity/impulsiveness/whatever you wanna call it@@thomasleonardis711 And again he made a pact with Varys and in extension Cersei to save his kids and the realm, over his "honour" as you called it. Not even Cersei wanted him dead (she was smarter than Catelyn in that she knew it would be outright war). Ned's childeen died because Littlefinger wanted him to die and he found a way over Joeffrey and Catelyn and Illyn Payne
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 his weakness was always children. He couldn’t see children hurt. He couldn’t harm children or be party to it. That isn’t a betrayal or a dismissal of his honor. It’s part of his code of honor. It’s exactly who he is and how he acts. Even in the the rebellion. His honor killed him. And if you think Robb will be the only dead stark by the end of the books I have a swamp out back I wanna sell you.
@David Lightbringer I think it’s an overlooked point that the reason Robert was agreed upon as king was the blood right; his paternal grandmother was a daughter of Aegon V
Great stream, great convo, great chat. We really got to the heart of what GRRM wants us to do - argue about the characters, and their complexities. This Eddard stream was better than I expected. I love good surprises. 😊
@@AndyAgainI agree Andy. A community can be ruined by its mods such as on reddit. However GOOD Mods like we fortunate enough to have here in the LmL-verse are a big part of why i feel so comfortable and welcome here. Really critical for an open minded insight into any complex topic
@@ThommyofThenn Yes! I love the LmL-verse! I'm excited to see him growing it more all the time. It takes a strong leader with clear values (like we have in @davidlightbringer) and the mods help make sure those values permeate. I'm forever impressed that LmL is able to carry on a discussion, keep track of *a lot* of what's going on the comments, manage Cleo... everything. David is impressive and he's created such an impressive community. Thank you, NordicThommy, for welcoming me into this part of it, I feel honoured. (I've been a *very* long time podcast listener and patron, but new to participating.)
@@AndyAgain that's really great. I've only just started listening to hours-long podcast type videos a few years ago. 40k was the first but nowadays asoiaf livestreams are the majority of my youtube viewing
Interesting echo between Ned and Rob…before both of them actually battle, they have the wedding/betrothal. If Rob had actually married the Frey girl then and there, I think he wins the war against the Lannisters, just like Ned marrying Catelyn almost assuredly wins the the rebellion for him and Robert. Walder doesn’t betray Rob if that’s his legal son in law, and his daughter is a Queen instead of a Lady.
While it had many narrative purposes, it feels like the brutal killing of Elia’s children and Robert being supportive of it, really is meant to emphasize why Ned would have had to lie about Jon’s parentage, even sacrificing the feelings of his wife to do it.
yeah it's like: "either I tell her and she keeps the secret or spills it, resulting in Jon's head being bashed against the nearest wall and my kids in trouble, OR I never tell anyone and no chances of my family dying from targ related reasons again"
This is my new favorite video. I'm usually obsessed with the deep symbolism, ancient history, Euron-centric streams. Nice to get back to basics sometimes. It also makes sense that King's Landing and everyone in it should be petrified of Ned, given that the last time he rode into the Crownlands, the city was sacked and destroyed and most of the royal family was wiped out. Though Ned himself had little to do with the atrocities committed in the latter parts of the Rebellion, hard to extricate yourself from those things when you're seen as a leader. Same goes for the Tower of Joy. Though the reader might be given a sliver of doubt about how Dayne met his end, it doesn't change the fact that the rest of the world sees him as the guy that stomped the Sword of the Morning. And Weirwood Twitter is still in beta at the moment so everyone and their mother doesn't have a horn of joramun or a glass candle to dig their claws into the juiciest gossip.
For reals "From the Frostfangs to Dorne people *know* Ned Stark." Holy shlamoly vuys that was deep. I love ot so much because i am such a Ned and Cat fan that i need to hear more people singin one or both of their praises.
"My Lords, Balon Greyjoy of the Iron Islands has undertaken a rebellion!" "Oh no!" "Oh no!" *Robert with his armour straining to contain his bloated body bursting through a wall* *"OH YEEEAAAH!"*
I love these character deep dives, and Eddard Stark, most dearest man in... oh wait, most feared man in Westeros! Seriously, even before Sean Bean's iconic 1 season portrayal, I think most of us loved this character. In that first book and season, we all just wanted him to win the Game of Thrones.
People say it was Ned's honour that killed him but, in truth it was when he put love ahead of honour and duty. First by warning Cersei for her childrens sake, again by not telling Robert the truth before he died for love of Robert, and finally by allowing him to be dragged in front of King's Landing and recount his claims for love of his children. Love is the death of duty, and it was the death of Ned Stark.
There’s a moment in Drogo’s khalasar, after Drogo resolves to invade Westeros, that I just caught on my umpteenth reread: IIRC Dany’s distracted and Jorah’s yapping at her in the background about a disagreement in which he holds STRONG opinions on where they should sell their slaves to fund ships. Less than, what? A year later? Dany starts her conquest of Slaver’s Bay and he continually devalues the lives of the nonfighting members, especially the Freedmen, of Dany’s collective. Jorah is still a slaver. It just suits him to pretend he isn’t where Dany can see. We’ll see if his stance has changed after Dance…
The idea of ravens as moon meteor symbolism is interesting since ravens carry messages in this world. A message from the stars on meteorite is both Lovecraftian and reminds me of the Bloodstone Emperor and others worshipping/being bewitched by Black Stone. Ravens appearing as an “eruption from the stars” gives big Starry Wisdom vibes.
yes it does, especially in the scene where Coldhands saves Sam and Gilly. void messengers. and I think that's the idea with Odinn's ravens too, essentially
I never watched Dredd besides the more recent non-stallone movie. It seemed to me Dredd either enjoyed or was totally ambivalent towards killing. I think Ned doesn't enjoy it and he probably thought about it at length during his sword cleaning seshs. Stannis is way more Dredd in that I don't think he really feels bad at all if people die. He views it as a necessity and would prefer if it weren't *his* men that died
Stannis and Dredd have an unassailable sense of their own righteousness only balanced by their sense of duty even at their own cost. Doing justice as they see it (but truly as they see it not as it would benefit them) is essential and fulfilling for them. They do their duty and tend to rest easily after without pangs of guilt due to that unassailable sense of righteousness.
A huge thanks to the both of you. A long form eddard discussion. My absolute favorite character in ASOIAF. Great work to the both of you. Thanks for taking the time!
I’m sad I missed the live stream! I love this chat. Ned is a wonderful complex character. So much good mixed with naïveté. He’s did know how to play the game of thrones and didn’t want to. I loved the conversation about how others perceive Ned and why. I love your channel and your content! Also, I love that you discuss ADHD and your experience. It’s so relatable to see how hyper focus (a superpower of ADHD) can be used so effectively! Your channel is brilliant! Love Gray waste Tim! Wish you’d do one with Gray Area. I miss hearing her!
You know, a cool what if would have been if at the end of the war, Ned and Robert either by choice of them or through a great council, had decided to divide Westeros in 2 and Robert got the South while Ned the North. Either that or that Westeros returned to the divided Westeros pre-Ageon the Conqueror times where each great house ruled their own piece of Westeros. That would have been cool and interesting too.
arya totally wears the "what would ned do" band when she murdered the night's watch deserter daeron, she just picks and chooses what she should follow from what ned taught
It’s a good thing Ned never told Cat. The whole of the 7 kingdoms would have known by the end of the week!🤦♀️ I think Jon’s name is Aemon too. I think it’s going to be something that Jon find comforting when he finds out he’s a Targaryen that he got to know Maester Aemon before he died. It’s going to be a big deal to him that he learned what he did about his family from such an amazing person.
If Robert had lived after his boar hunt I 100 percent know he would have killed Cersei, the kids and then would have lost weight to fight the Lannisters. He's only in his mid 30's he would absolutely do that.
I think Tywin and Ned are very good comparisons of each other. Both of them are surrounded by an aura of respect and fear. And even in the areas they deviate they still compliment each other extensively, Tywin rules by fear and earns his respect and reputation through it, Ned on the other hand uses his respect for others and reputation to rule and that within itself garners fear from those who lack the clear fortitude Ned had. Ned’s honor and clear lack of willingness to play games was on par with Tywin but I would say even surpasses it because he also had the ability to see the other side and have respect for those who brought forth information to him. Where as Tywin shows that even if he wants to hear the bad news, he almost lashes out at those around him instead of taking a more humbled approach.
Thinking of Ned seeing Arya and trying to find a way she can be herself but not be killed is so heartbreaking. And thank you for bringing up how Ned wanting to protect Sansa and keep her close when they go to King's Landing didnt really serve her well. Sansa was great at courtesies and needlework and being kind and generous, but she wasn't ready to marry a King. I wonder if Ned had someone in the North in mind for her before Robert showed up. Still, I feel for both the Stark girls, neither prepared for what their lives will be in reality. ARYA X NED DAYNE!!!! I've never thought of it, but they'd be perfect!
To be fair Joffrey wasn't ready to be a king as much and more than Sansa be a king's wife. Probably because they were still teens. Even in real life medieval it's rare for young rulers to be expected to be ready for the throne or responsibility, so I doubt anyone expected any independent thinking from them this young, even if Robert died next day they married, they would still be mostly symbols to everyone with their relatives making decisions. Tho tbf in real life the court would be filled with relatives and friends of family of Sansa and Joffrey, stepping up where necessary and making sure they didn't do any mistakes expected from naive young royals
Ned would definitely have been a better king than Robert, Stannis, Renly, Tywin or anyone else. If Ned had become king Jaime would've been sent to the Wall for killing Aerys. And The Mountain and Amory Lorch would've been sliced by Ice for murdering Elia and her children. And Tywin would've stood for all of it because his only other option would've been to go to war against the four armies that just mopped up the Targaryen Dynasty. Tywin would've gone back to Casterly Rock dreaming of vengeance he'd likely never be able to take. Having earned the ire of the Dornish and all other Targaryen loyalist left in Westeros Tywin would have no allies and no moves to make against King Ned. Having brought Elia's murders to justice Ned would've earned the loyalty or at least respect of house Martel. He probably would've dismissed Pycele for the part he played in the sack of Kingslanding. And probably Varys too for just being too shady. Ned never would've allowed Little Finger on the small council. Also he likely would've taken Tyrion, Willas Tyrell, and Arianne or Quentyn Martell as wards to assure the loyalty of their houses. And would have treated them well which could've further fostered good relations with the lordlings and some of their sires houses. Tywin like Balon Greyjoy could never be trusted of course, but I could see Mace and Doran coming around if their children were treated well. Most importantly Ned would rule the seven kingdoms as he ruled the North. Offering a fair hearing and swift justice to all his subjects. In Winterfell Ned feasted with one of his bannermen every fortnight. And on many other nights he feasted with his lower born subjects. This custom allowed Ned to maintain strong relationships with all his subjects, gain the measure of their character & abilities and continually remind them that he appreciated their service. I can think of no reason he wouldn't have done the same with all the lords significant vassels of Westeros had he sat the Iron Throne.
Ned never told Cat about Jon because the more he got to know her, the more he saw how fiercely she loved and protected her children. If she knew Jon was Rhaegar's son and was ever in a position where she could save her kids by giving up Jon, she would (but she would have no reason to consider this if he was just Ned's bastard). Similar to how she went rogue and gave up Jaime to save Sansa & Arya, which could be considered treason.
I think I might have an idea about the ironborn theory video. Problably something along the line of them being descendants of people arround Ashai. People related to the Bloodstone Emperor. People who made at least one very big ship made of Essos weirwood. Some very big ship, wich remais of weirwood petrified and eventually got mistaken for being Nagga's ribs. Wich means that Euron might be a direct descendant of the Bloodstone emperor, just as he is problably trying to do the exact same thing his ancestor did. And then, at last, the circle will be complete. Very awesomely.
I disagree with Ned being able to trust Cat with Jon's secret. As soon as she got the letter from Lysa regarding Jon Arryn's death, she literally tells everyone. She tells everyone everything. She kinda never shuts up, till she's dead.
Really cool perspective on Ned as usual. I think your character analyses are underrated in comparison to your work on symbolism. But I do think that the symbolism and character go hand in hand, the symbolism being a parallel to the values of the characters in the story. My take on Ned is that he is a reactive person as opposed to being a proactive person. He doesn't have a vision for how things should be, but he does work from what his values are. So when life throws a curveball at him he consults his values and reacts to situations and circumstances. He plays it safe. In contrast to Ned. I think Jon is a visionary. He takes risks, he strikes deals with wildlings, with the iron bank, etc. When Ned knows that trouble is coming he doesn't try to find allies, he doesn't involve Stannis fast enough. Finally he has no other person to trust except Littlefinger of all people. It makes him quite predictable to his enemies too, since he is not trying new things. He also doesn't act fast enough. He doesn't like leaving his comfort zone, literally (Winterfell).
I'd really like to learn when and why Benjen joined the watch. He could have helped keep Ned more in touch with what was going on in the south if he'd stayed within the family. The Dothraki would have to actually get to westeros in the first place, and considering that the Westerosi seem to have considerable naval forces I'd say that's might be quite difficult for them. They'd also be pretty easy to defeat in skirmishes with armoured Westerosi archers, crossbowmen and knights to support. Without support from rebellious lords they wouldn't realistically have much chance. Unless somehow Dany hatches a few dragon eggs, but that would never happen.....
Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning Evokes the Sword in the Stone by T.H. White, where King Arthur is raised in secret as a common-born squire. This suggests that Jon is secretly the true-born King Oswell Whent, the symbol of a bat with outstretched wings on his helmet Whent is a bat-man. Batman's parents were killed, and he grew up to be a dark hero. Also supported by one of Dany's visions where we see what is presumed to be Rhaegar defeated at the Trident, and rubies fly from the chest of a dying prince, like the pearls when Martha Wayne is shot. It tells us that both of Jon's parents are dead, he's not Ned's bastard, although we figured that out a long time ago. Gerold Hightower, the White Bull Lots of sacrificial bulls and Taurus bulls in myth but I know of only two white bulls, both from Greek myth: 1. Zeus transformed himself into a white bull to kidnap Europa. It's a myth about the shape of Europe. Could perhaps hint at Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna. 2. The Cretan Bull, sent by Poseidon, was supposed to be sacrificed but wasn't, fathered the Minotaur. Captured by Heracles then released on mainland Greece. Eventually killed by Theseus, who went on to kill the Minotaur in the Labyrinth too, which he did to stop Athenians being periodically taken as slaves and sacrificed to the Minotaur Theseus was the son of a the King of Athens, and also of Poseidon (because myth), raised in secret, until he was old enough to claim his birthright It's got to be the Cretan Bull, it both suggests Jon is a true-born son raised in secret, and that he was supposed to be sacrificed
that's interesting about the supposed to be sacrificed part. I'd still point first to Mithras's sacrifice of the white bull, which is part of his rebirth, but the Theseus thing might be part of it too
I think that Ned may have lost short term because he allways will do the rigth thing in line with his sense of morality, but i think he will win long term. Neds unwillingness to compremise will save the world
Great stream! What do you think about the burning of Shireen causing outbreak of grey plague? I was thinking it kinda might make sense for burning to reactivate it by putting it into a vapor (like a fog). Garin’s curse was effective against Valyrians, maybe burning exacerbates it. I think Val’s concerns are foreshadowing this.
Glad I came across this vid 😊 Ned is easily one of my favorite if not absolute favorite characters. The way he wears his Stark traits on his sleeve as this serious, honorable, and stoic man is incredible. Those are all traits I imagine in myself.
Awesome stream as usual! Gonna rewatch at work Tuesday where I can re absorb the information. When are the Iron Born vids coming out? Really looking forward to them!
1:47. Thanks for GC shoutout during the live and decided to jam out to them. Thanks for sharing artists some of your audience wasn’t aware of. Late for the stream because I praised Garth and listened to a 2hr live Darkstar my friend sent me.
Finally someone gives Ned the respect he deserves and doesnt just label him as an ignorant fool as many in the fandom do! You will probably be annoyed since i have already mentioned it before and i know you dont agree but bear with me. I m on team Dany becoming much darker and defenely embracing fire and blood for her own ambitions.The show showed her being hated in Westeros and shown as a bad figure which i think it will also happen in the books. I think that will parrarel Azor Ahai perfectly.A legendary figure who is praised in the East as a hero known by diffrent names similar to how Dany will be immortalized as the savior of slaves, mysha ,breaker of chains and countless other names but both of them will be despised in westeros and seen as bad.(Just a thought i know you dont agree i just wanted to share my opinion). I do have a random question for you though.i dont know if you have answered it before but have you explained why would a murder of a woman(nissa nissa-amethyst)cause the long night?I mean im sure we have seen countless killings raoes tortures etc,why would that specific murder cause the long night why was it such a vile act compared to other murders? Amazing livestream as always you are one of the best asoiaf creators !
I know I'm really late, but I couldn't catch up the stream and I have a really crazy theory about all the R + L = J thing. At Harrenhal, Rhaegar was trying to win the lords to his cause, perhaps to call for a great council or maybe even to prepare a huge alliance to depose Aerys by force. As we know, the Mad King showed up and fucked up his plans of a discreet skeem behind closed doors. However, all the lords were already there so who knows if Rhaegar still tried to win them over. I think he met Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and decided to crown her Queen of Love and Beauty as a reward. But maybe, also as a way of inserting himself onto the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliance. Yes, it was not well received at the moment, but Rickard Stark was a man with huge southern ambitions. Perhaps Lord Stark saw the prince was interested in his daughter and tried to approach him (or at least that could be what Rhaegar wanted). At that point everyone knew that Elia was really frail and almost died in childbirth, I'm sure many lords were waiting until the right moment to offer their daughters to the prince of the realm. Even when Elia did not die giving birth to Aegon, she did end up not being able to bring to term another pregancy by risk of dying. So who wouldn't take a chance of making his daughter a queen in a near future or even just the mother of a prince (a kid could be legitimazed and taken in count in the line of succecion even if their parents were not married). Here is where my theory goes kinda nuts. I think when Rhaegar found out Elia couln't give him that third child who will end up fullfiling the prophecy, he went in search for someone who could (that is almost a headcanon in R+L=J). Instead of just chosing some random northern girl to fit the Ice & Fire shit, he decided to go for the one who will give him a huge political advance against his father. Rickard, when presented with the choice of a prince for his daughter over a simple lord (Robert), would have probably accepted because as it has been established, he had great ambitions. This could have went down in two ways: 1. Rhaegar offered to take Lyanna as his second wife as in old valyria by marrying her in front of a Heart Tree. If he had a wife taken in front of the new gods and another in front of the old ones, perhaps the faith wouldn't have went against it so harshly (I mean, they think the Old Gods and it's religion are stupid, why would they legitimaze them by taking offense in a marriage done in those ways). 2. Rhaegar offered to legitimaze whatever child he could have with Lyanna and give them a place in the line of succesion. This could have even worked out in her favour, because if she did bear the prince's child, Robert couldn't have possibly wanted to marry her (purely out of spite and anger he would make sure to reject her) wich seemed to be what she desired, to get free of her engagement. So Elia can't have more children, Rhaegar makes a deal with Rickard and he goes to fetch Lyanna in secret so that no one suspects anything (specially his father and Robert). It has always seemed odd to me how fast the banner's were raised during Robert's Rebellion, specially in the north, so perhaps the lords were already preparing for a conflict against Aerys at that point. That could explain why the matter with Lyanna had to be done with discretion, so that the Mad King did not suspect any type of treason from his son. I think if Rickard had decided to broke the engagement with House Baratheon he would have probably wanted to wait until everything was settled before anouncing it to Robert. If his plans failed, Rickard would have probably retracted himself and decide to marry Lyanna to Robert still. Who knows, perhaps he was already thinking of marrying her to Robert anyways, even if she had Rhaegar's child. All this seems like a reasonable plan for Rhaegar to depose his father and fulfill the prophecy at the same time (althought a little bit out there, I must admit). But, of course, Rickard didn't tell anyone of his plans and when Brandon heared (probably from Peteyr) that his sister had disappeared with the prince, he went and did something stupid. And just like that...everything went to fuck ! All because of Brandon, can you imagine ? Anyways, I know this is crazy and it's just a theory I have been thinking about for a few monyhs now. I was not sure if to share it somwhere or not, but since you were talking about the mattrr in these stream I decided...why not? PD: Sorry for my bad English, I'm from Spain. Love your content and love Ned Stark, the best two hours of my life ❤.
Also consider that if Petyr Baelish can be placed in the location, he does have the motive to do so. Brandon is 1) Cat’s fiancée and thus Petyr’s romantic rival and 2) the dude who nearly killed him in a duel for Cat That’s the sort of thing that causes generational vendettas. Ugh, dude’s such a creep. I wonder if he’s actually there, “on page”…
I think the bones are important and carry the soul or at least part of it. Melisandre, the hand Summer eats, all the bones in the weirwood cave. I think the bones need a proper burial close to a weirwood to get to the afterlife in the weirwood net. Thats why Lady Dustin is pissed. Ned brought Lyanna's bones back but not her husband. I think maybe the Valeryan Steel Swords take a piece of the soul as well. Nissa Nissa's blood and soul went into the steal. Perhaps It is the memories that Beric loses. Like King Arthur when he was resurrected and got his memories or his soul back from his sword Excalibur.
“That was a full bull……praise Garth” lol But I don’t think Ned would have killed Theon I think he would have just kept him safe and placed him on the sea stone chair.
i love you guys!! the level of geekery and commitment is is impressive!! :-) i spend hours watching/ listening to your content! im in there deep with you guys. you helped me get thrpugh my first year as a widow( my geek died in march 2017. ASOIAF was his thing, i joined in 2012 with the G OT show.
Catching up on the rewatch. Great stuff everyone from any chat to mods GWT and of course, LML. George’s work is so involving that 90% of any and every interpretation overlaps with another. 👏👏👏 like the WWJD/WWND comparisons. Arya in more WWLD though.
I've come to completely disagree with the narrative that Ned was too naive or honorable to survive in the south. Ned was in no way incompetent he was just late. By the time he arrived the Lannisters were already making attempts on Robert's life. And despite having to rely on uncertain allies like Little Finger & Varys, Ned uncovered Cersi's treachery and had a plan to deal with Tywin and Jamie in the Riverlands. But before he could report Cersi's treachery to Robert, Robert was killed. And before his bannermen could assemble and march south to confront the Lannister army ravaging the Riverlands Little Finger double crossed him. Not to mention the machinations of Little Finger and Varys which were also well underway by the time Ned arrived. And the bad luck of Catelyn running into Tyrion at the crossroads, instigating her diversion into the Vale and delaying her carrying Ned's order to call his banners.
that's fair, and it's been argued George's writing is sort of forcing the plot here, a serious of very unfortunate timing things that lead to his death, as you say. I actually fault Ned for not maintaining any sort of contacts or intelligence in KL to keep abreast of what's going on. He left it to Jon Arryn and King Robert and then was shocked to see how bad things were when he got there
giving Cersei the chance to flee and then not heeding Renly were both big mistakes imo
@@DavidLightbringerYeah I will concede he should have handled Cersi differently. As Hand of the King Ned had the authority to arrest Cersi for treason on Robert's behalf as soon as he found proof of her adultery. And if he wanted to protect the children from Robert, he could have sent them to Essos before Robert returned from hunting. If Robert survived he would have been pissed. But the worst thing he would likely have done would've been to remove Ned as Hand and send him back North. If he made his move while Robert was alive Renly would have backed him up, which would have given him enough men to overwhelm the Lannister soldiers in the Red Keep without having to rely on Little Finger. None of these moves could've saved Robert, but they would have saved Ned and all but ensured that he, Stannis, and Renly could have defeated the rest of the Lannisters in the Riverlands. I'm also confident that if Ned had been alive to support Stannis' claim Renly would never have had the balls to make his own claim.
Ned in King's Landing was the definition of a bull in a China shop and I believe GRRM wrote it to be perceived that way.
Ned's biggest character flaw is not plain stupidity or naivety or extreme honesty. It is a relentless expectation that people in general will follow rules and defer to authority. "Well I'm the Hand now so they have to do what I say." No they don't Ned.
Telegraphing his plans to Cersei was not just stupidity, naivety, or mercy. It bordered on self-destructive psychotic behavior. It was an extreme miscalculation.
Renly recognizes that Ned has shifted from stubbornness to a totally new level of refusing-to-accept-reality. We, the readers, are meant to mirror Renly's disbelief and exasperation in that moment.
@@DavidLightbringercersie plan to kill Robert was already underway and ned isnt omnipotent ned also knows Robert has been hunting thousands of times before why would he believe that time Robert was going to die
The throne, i think, is often overlooked. Half way through so I don't know if it's mentioned, but the in-book description and the concept art of the Iron Throne makes it a big monstrous thing that took deliberate effort to climb up to and be found seated on, you can google accurate depictions.
It's almost a few stories tall, jagged and sharp, with uneven and chaotic steps to the seat.
Jamie sitting on the throne in the show would be no big deal, but Jamie sitting on the throne in the books is clearly an act of some crazy egotistical theatrics.
Nedd and the reader are completely justified in thinking Jamie is a tool at best and villain at worst, especially pre the main story.
Ned always stuck me as a guy who was skeptical of the magic/prophecy in the world -- not because he didn't believe it was real, but because he is terrified that it might be real.
Yeah, like he's taking on so much already he definitely doesn't have the capacity to add a mystical layer to his responsibilities
@@Okcucumber haha so true
Dragons, white walkers AND Lanisters. Total migraine.
Ned suffers for, and keeps the secrets of others, while the Lannisters make others suffer for their own secrets and desires. And Robert puts his pleasure before duty, while Ned puts honor and duty before even his own family, until he falsely confesses and sacrifices himself, his honor,(as he did with Jon) in duty to his family, and dies figuratively and actually.
Well put
@@prairieskyethank you, from what I can tell grrm creates a weave of traits, archetypes, arc types and events with parallels, preconfigurations, and dichotomies.
great point!
Ned is a traitor in principle
He did disobey his king's final wishes
Ned didn't prioritize his honor. He didn't even consider himself that honorouble.
He just thinks that children should not be put in danger because he was traumatized when he saw thw Targ kids corpses. Cause he played a hand in their deaths all for his revenge.
There is something so tragic about Ned that touches me more than with other characters with tragic past. He seems so lonely with his secrets.
There have to be few who still know a few secrets alongside that Ned knew. Probably Howland Reed and Baby Benjen. Maybe even a few more people at Starfall.
@@travismcnasty51 Of course ! But people he couldn't risk to contact by raven and letters. And he can't go to them physically either. Even Benjen is far away. At winterfell he was alone, watching Jon grew around his kids and seeing how difficult it is for him and Catelyn who don't know the truth.
@@leslieshEomg that’s just like jon who sends his friends away and then is lonely
@@basilgysel8409 and gets killed
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Thanks Tracy for the reminder
🎉 ofcourse
Always
commenting and replying to other comments!
@@cherylbaxter8986how did you get those lil emojis for GOT??
I think Ned's isolationist/stick to the north & stay out of southern politics was #1 because of Jon & #2 he was disgusted with Robert over the sack of KL, the rape & murder of Rhaegar's family & his alliance with Tywin/The Lannisters #3 the tragic & cruel deaths of his sister, brother & father probably threw water on any romantic ideas of honor in warfare/combat. The north was just different culturally & he could deal with the devil he knew there(aka the politics & alliances of his countrymen) so it wasn't a bad strategy initially. He really should have stayed in the loop about KL via the spy/gossip hotline for extra safety for his family but I totally get being so soured on an experience you never want to think about it again & just put it in the rear view mirror. His biggest flaw was assuming if he treated others with respect, honesty & compassion they would be appreciative & recipricate in kind. KL was a pit of vipers he just wasn't prepared for.
Ned must’ve developed some serious trauma from Roberts Rebellion. And it’s hard to blame him… Rickard and Brandon, Lyanna and Jon, as well as the lie… Plus Benjen joins the Watch shortly thereafter.
War made men out of the boys lucky enough to survive…
On the subject of Ned’s trauma though… he seemed to really regress. It’s like he thought if he kept his entire family in Winterfell they would never be unsafe. To the point where Sansa is completely unequipped to deal with anything.
Ned is a good man. But like all parents he failed his children in ways he perhaps should’ve seen, but ultimately didn’t.
But Sansa's naivete is from being raised by a Southron wife of privilege and Septas who taught her to be a lady and to "arm herself in courtesy and charm". I don't blame Ned for that. I'm sure he tried to instill some Northern sensibilities in her, but at her age, she likely put more importance in the social construct she was expected to be a part of.
LML mentioned that Ned may have adopted Jon Arryn's politics - what are the politics of the Vale that we see?
Shore up in the Eyrie to protect your family.
@@GypsySummer1northern sensibilities wouldn't have helped her much
Kinda nonsense. No 11 year is old equipped to deal with any situations listed. Arya isn't dealing with it either, she just happens to be a murderous sociopath who thrives in violence.
@@Sinewmire Good point
What cool observations on why Ned and Robert got along so well in the Vale. Robert was “a more coachable Brandon” - so true 😂
hey thanks a lot! and yeah people try to work out their trauma by trying to redo things sometimes.... poor Ned
@@DavidLightbringer These credible musings are truly the nooks and crannies of this series. So satisfying to fill them in and go back for additional bites!
I always noted that Robert made me think of the way they describe Brandon in the books. It was never put quite that explicity in the text but I also got a feel that Robert reminded Ned of Brandon, both good and bad.
And Ned was "a more likeable Stannis" is also so true
Pork elk hybrid@@rottenpotato4733
Ned’s bones won’t be laid to rest until his children all come together I’m not sure if that’s a metaphorical thing or a physical thing but I feel like all of neds worldly business and regrets are symbolized in his bones and once his children have fulfilled them he can rest in peace
This fits with a comment @Karl Karlsnark made about how many religions have beliefs around the possibility for resurrection if all of someone's bones can be kept together.
His children being all together and remembering him (WWND) would work together to highlight his memory living on, and as a type of resurrection/last cohesion of Ned's life and legacy.
Really excellent discussion. Love Ned & he was perfectly played by Sean Bean on the show
You don't keep secrets by telling people about them. Ned not telling Catelyn about baby Jon's heritage was SMART!
Yeah, he didn't know her _that_ well when he first got back with Jon, and seeing how she treated him...I'd be worried if I told her, what if shed get sick of people thinking he was unfaithful to her, and shed spill it to someone
And just all the reasons one might not think of at the time... how about if Catelyn made a statement that inadvertently caused someone to start questioning things.... and that leads to a secret being uncovered. Even with good intent, accidents happen.
Agreed. A fish that keeps its mouth closed never gets hooked.. al Capone was talking about bragging after commiting crimes but I think it still fits with ned
yep, for all he knew she would've still disliked Jon, just for him not being a bastard but for being a threat to her children and the reason the war started. Of course she disliked Jon for Ned's infidelity, but Ned didn't know that, Ned probably thought that if she hated the fact he cheated she would blame him and not the child, because Ned himself is the kind of person who doesn't blame children for parent's crimes.
Some say he should've told her Jon is Brandon's, but Catelyn would probably fear Jon even more thinking that he could be used to overthrow her children.
And if she knew about the targ stuff, I could somewhat imagine a scene where Robb wants to name Jon his heir and Catelyn, to emotional to think, goes "no you can't do it, he is a targaryen!!" in front of northern lords.
Not saying she is overly emotional because she is a woman. It's just her personal trait, to think with her heart rather than brain when her children are involved. Jaime proves it.
I loved how Jon and Rob both simultaneously took a man's life in the style Ned did. Both simply because their "father" raised them to act in honor if required to take a man's life. Never pass the deed on like a coward.
I wonder if the other boys will do this too. And maybe if Sansa and Arya missed something important by being left out of that lesson.
I feel like the Tully words, Family Duty Honour apply more to Ned than any Tully we meet
The Tully words sound kinda like a mafia motto tbh in the context of the Tullys
more like arryn's words As high as honor
It's like the 'world peace' of personal values
I think Catelyn lives up to them pretty well
Edmure, Catelyn, and the Blackfish represent those words very well.
I always feel like when people take the stance that Ned was ruthless enough or was 'honorable to a fault', they're really selling him short. He was incredibly intelligent and an excellent detective. He was just surrounded by enemies on all sides. That's what it took to take him down.
When it comes to the "Shadow" of Ned, you have to remember, that he is a Stark! A Stark, one of the liniage that keeps the north together for over 8000 years, the kings in the north, the last ones to bow to aegon the conquerer. The Starks, who fight giants and things beyond the wall. who can trace their liniage back by their dead in their crypt.
The ones who maybe the most myth and legends surrounding them, not to forget the location geographically. they are in the north. noone comes there, and noone leaves.
The legends that circle the north and must be enough in the south to make children shake in fear when they are told bedtime storys.
And than you meet Ned, a guy who has killed one of the greatest fighters that ever lived, who doesnt talk much but instead stares at you with ice cold piercing eyes.
I mean, would you fuck with a guy like that?!
jorah had to maintain that wifestyle
I don't want to see Jorah blaming any love potion for that! ;)
3:57 Oz, another HBO series from the mid-90s did this also. The only difference is that it happens in the first episode! You meet one prison inmate and you start to feel empathy for him.
He's killed for a stupid reason about 4/5ths of the way through the pilot and it's sad. That was when I had a similar moment of realisation that no one was safe and that life was cheap. Knowing this from the start greatly enhanced the feelings of horror, terror and despair the viewer is pummled with for the rest of the series.
Everyone always talks about how Ned Stark's "honor" is what got him killed. But the reality is that he wasn't put to death until AFTER he publicly lied and admitted to treason (in hopes of saving his children.) It was the sacrifice of his honor for his children that killed him.
It was crazy Joffrey that killed him, manipulated by Littlefinger... Ned was not getting out of it alive, whatever he chose to do
The honour point is that if he'd acted less honourably - if he'd seized power instead of giving Cersei the chance to flee - he never would've been in that situation.
His honor killed him. He should have announced to the world that those kids were bastards. But his honor (and probably on some level Jon’s hidden parentage) lead to him warning Cersei and making no public proclamations about the children (which as Regeant he had the ability to do).
Neds children died because Ned’s honor wouldn’t allow him to harm children.
One child died. And that one by fault of Catelyn not Ned. not children plural, they're all alive but Robb. and he wouldnt even. be in that situation if ti wasnt for catelyn's stupidity/impulsiveness/whatever you wanna call it@@thomasleonardis711 And again he made a pact with Varys and in extension Cersei to save his kids and the realm, over his "honour" as you called it. Not even Cersei wanted him dead (she was smarter than Catelyn in that she knew it would be outright war). Ned's childeen died because Littlefinger wanted him to die and he found a way over Joeffrey and Catelyn and Illyn Payne
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 his weakness was always children. He couldn’t see children hurt. He couldn’t harm children or be party to it. That isn’t a betrayal or a dismissal of his honor. It’s part of his code of honor. It’s exactly who he is and how he acts. Even in the the rebellion. His honor killed him. And if you think Robb will be the only dead stark by the end of the books I have a swamp out back I wanna sell you.
@David Lightbringer I think it’s an overlooked point that the reason Robert was agreed upon as king was the blood right; his paternal grandmother was a daughter of Aegon V
Great stream, great convo, great chat. We really got to the heart of what GRRM wants us to do - argue about the characters, and their complexities. This Eddard stream was better than I expected. I love good surprises. 😊
You're a pretty great mod and helped keep conversation going. You really helped me feel comfortable and welcome, personally! Thanks!
@@AndyAgainI agree Andy. A community can be ruined by its mods such as on reddit. However GOOD Mods like we fortunate enough to have here in the LmL-verse are a big part of why i feel so comfortable and welcome here. Really critical for an open minded insight into any complex topic
thanks Devoted and yes I tried to bring some fresh takes :)
@@ThommyofThenn Yes! I love the LmL-verse! I'm excited to see him growing it more all the time.
It takes a strong leader with clear values (like we have in @davidlightbringer) and the mods help make sure those values permeate.
I'm forever impressed that LmL is able to carry on a discussion, keep track of *a lot* of what's going on the comments, manage Cleo... everything. David is impressive and he's created such an impressive community.
Thank you, NordicThommy, for welcoming me into this part of it, I feel honoured. (I've been a *very* long time podcast listener and patron, but new to participating.)
@@AndyAgain that's really great. I've only just started listening to hours-long podcast type videos a few years ago. 40k was the first but nowadays asoiaf livestreams are the majority of my youtube viewing
Interesting echo between Ned and Rob…before both of them actually battle, they have the wedding/betrothal. If Rob had actually married the Frey girl then and there, I think he wins the war against the Lannisters, just like Ned marrying Catelyn almost assuredly wins the the rebellion for him and Robert. Walder doesn’t betray Rob if that’s his legal son in law, and his daughter is a Queen instead of a Lady.
Interesting. Jon pretty well did the same by wedding ygritte (wildling style) before battle. Also likewise in it assuring his place with Mance
While it had many narrative purposes, it feels like the brutal killing of Elia’s children and Robert being supportive of it, really is meant to emphasize why Ned would have had to lie about Jon’s parentage, even sacrificing the feelings of his wife to do it.
yeah it's like: "either I tell her and she keeps the secret or spills it, resulting in Jon's head being bashed against the nearest wall and my kids in trouble, OR I never tell anyone and no chances of my family dying from targ related reasons again"
This is my new favorite video. I'm usually obsessed with the deep symbolism, ancient history, Euron-centric streams. Nice to get back to basics sometimes. It also makes sense that King's Landing and everyone in it should be petrified of Ned, given that the last time he rode into the Crownlands, the city was sacked and destroyed and most of the royal family was wiped out. Though Ned himself had little to do with the atrocities committed in the latter parts of the Rebellion, hard to extricate yourself from those things when you're seen as a leader. Same goes for the Tower of Joy. Though the reader might be given a sliver of doubt about how Dayne met his end, it doesn't change the fact that the rest of the world sees him as the guy that stomped the Sword of the Morning. And Weirwood Twitter is still in beta at the moment so everyone and their mother doesn't have a horn of joramun or a glass candle to dig their claws into the juiciest gossip.
For reals "From the Frostfangs to Dorne people *know* Ned Stark." Holy shlamoly vuys that was deep. I love ot so much because i am such a Ned and Cat fan that i need to hear more people singin one or both of their praises.
"My Lords, Balon Greyjoy of the Iron Islands has undertaken a rebellion!"
"Oh no!"
"Oh no!"
*Robert with his armour straining to contain his bloated body bursting through a wall*
*"OH YEEEAAAH!"*
Love the Ned talk, one of my favorite characters!!
I love these character deep dives, and Eddard Stark, most dearest man in... oh wait, most feared man in Westeros! Seriously, even before Sean Bean's iconic 1 season portrayal, I think most of us loved this character. In that first book and season, we all just wanted him to win the Game of Thrones.
People say it was Ned's honour that killed him but, in truth it was when he put love ahead of honour and duty. First by warning Cersei for her childrens sake, again by not telling Robert the truth before he died for love of Robert, and finally by allowing him to be dragged in front of King's Landing and recount his claims for love of his children.
Love is the death of duty, and it was the death of Ned Stark.
There’s a moment in Drogo’s khalasar, after Drogo resolves to invade Westeros, that I just caught on my umpteenth reread:
IIRC Dany’s distracted and Jorah’s yapping at her in the background about a disagreement in which he holds STRONG opinions on where they should sell their slaves to fund ships.
Less than, what? A year later? Dany starts her conquest of Slaver’s Bay and he continually devalues the lives of the nonfighting members, especially the Freedmen, of Dany’s collective.
Jorah is still a slaver. It just suits him to pretend he isn’t where Dany can see.
We’ll see if his stance has changed after Dance…
you got that 100% right
this is a good example of subtle writing
The idea of ravens as moon meteor symbolism is interesting since ravens carry messages in this world. A message from the stars on meteorite is both Lovecraftian and reminds me of the Bloodstone Emperor and others worshipping/being bewitched by Black Stone.
Ravens appearing as an “eruption from the stars” gives big Starry Wisdom vibes.
yes it does, especially in the scene where Coldhands saves Sam and Gilly. void messengers. and I think that's the idea with Odinn's ravens too, essentially
@@DavidLightbringer I love that!
I never watched Dredd besides the more recent non-stallone movie. It seemed to me Dredd either enjoyed or was totally ambivalent towards killing. I think Ned doesn't enjoy it and he probably thought about it at length during his sword cleaning seshs. Stannis is way more Dredd in that I don't think he really feels bad at all if people die. He views it as a necessity and would prefer if it weren't *his* men that died
💯 agree
Stannis and Dredd have an unassailable sense of their own righteousness only balanced by their sense of duty even at their own cost. Doing justice as they see it (but truly as they see it not as it would benefit them) is essential and fulfilling for them. They do their duty and tend to rest easily after without pangs of guilt due to that unassailable sense of righteousness.
Does make sense considering everyone knows he defeated the sword of the morning and why Jaime is so keen in show to fight him.
Perhaps it was a piece of information Lyanna had that made Rhaegar bail on politics and tunnel vision on prophecy? Great stream.
Coupled with his failure at Harrenhall. Rhaegar had been pushed into a corner where killing his father was the only way out of the political mess.
A huge thanks to the both of you. A long form eddard discussion. My absolute favorite character in ASOIAF. Great work to the both of you. Thanks for taking the time!
I’m sad I missed the live stream! I love this chat. Ned is a wonderful complex character. So much good mixed with naïveté. He’s did know how to play the game of thrones and didn’t want to. I loved the conversation about how others perceive Ned and why. I love your channel and your content! Also, I love that you discuss ADHD and your experience. It’s so relatable to see how hyper focus (a superpower of ADHD) can be used so effectively! Your channel is brilliant! Love Gray waste Tim! Wish you’d do one with Gray Area. I miss hearing her!
hyperfocusing our way along, yes that's it
I believe the children of the forest are linked to adhd, you know hunter gatherer syndrome
You know, a cool what if would have been if at the end of the war, Ned and Robert either by choice of them or through a great council, had decided to divide Westeros in 2 and Robert got the South while Ned the North. Either that or that Westeros returned to the divided Westeros pre-Ageon the Conqueror times where each great house ruled their own piece of Westeros. That would have been cool and interesting too.
arya totally wears the "what would ned do" band when she murdered the night's watch deserter daeron, she just picks and chooses what she should follow from what ned taught
Fabulous as always gentlemen! Thanks for making Sunday nights a great start to the week! 💛
It’s a good thing Ned never told Cat. The whole of the 7 kingdoms would have known by the end of the week!🤦♀️
I think Jon’s name is Aemon too. I think it’s going to be something that Jon find comforting when he finds out he’s a Targaryen that he got to know Maester Aemon before he died. It’s going to be a big deal to him that he learned what he did about his family from such an amazing person.
On the subject of young Theon at Winterfell - "treats him as a weird cousin or something." - Hahaha! Love your channel.
I wonder what whispers Varys would have been putting in Rheagars ears at the time. Im sure we will never know, but they say he fueled Aerys.
There's been speculation that Varys poisoned Aerys against Rhaegar in the first place.
Thank you for the wonderful stream! If you enjoyed this, make sure you leave a comment to help David and Tim!
Great stream! Thanks guys. Love me some Ned, the ultimate BA.
I'd love to see maybe a short(or long) video/stream on Robb's will sometime.
You are the Goat my man you and the different people you put on stream are amazing man!
43:30 I be watching these streams an 1 hours and a half at a time. Happy to contribute to the long watch times. Keep up the great work! 👏👏👏👏
If Robert had lived after his boar hunt I 100 percent know he would have killed Cersei, the kids and then would have lost weight to fight the Lannisters. He's only in his mid 30's he would absolutely do that.
On his death bed he says killing kids are bad tho
If Robert survived his boar hunt, Cersei would just poison him another day.
@@jessjess23brooks89 na she would die
I think Tywin and Ned are very good comparisons of each other. Both of them are surrounded by an aura of respect and fear. And even in the areas they deviate they still compliment each other extensively, Tywin rules by fear and earns his respect and reputation through it, Ned on the other hand uses his respect for others and reputation to rule and that within itself garners fear from those who lack the clear fortitude Ned had. Ned’s honor and clear lack of willingness to play games was on par with Tywin but I would say even surpasses it because he also had the ability to see the other side and have respect for those who brought forth information to him. Where as Tywin shows that even if he wants to hear the bad news, he almost lashes out at those around him instead of taking a more humbled approach.
Thinking of Ned seeing Arya and trying to find a way she can be herself but not be killed is so heartbreaking.
And thank you for bringing up how Ned wanting to protect Sansa and keep her close when they go to King's Landing didnt really serve her well. Sansa was great at courtesies and needlework and being kind and generous, but she wasn't ready to marry a King. I wonder if Ned had someone in the North in mind for her before Robert showed up. Still, I feel for both the Stark girls, neither prepared for what their lives will be in reality.
ARYA X NED DAYNE!!!! I've never thought of it, but they'd be perfect!
To be fair Joffrey wasn't ready to be a king as much and more than Sansa be a king's wife. Probably because they were still teens. Even in real life medieval it's rare for young rulers to be expected to be ready for the throne or responsibility, so I doubt anyone expected any independent thinking from them this young, even if Robert died next day they married, they would still be mostly symbols to everyone with their relatives making decisions. Tho tbf in real life the court would be filled with relatives and friends of family of Sansa and Joffrey, stepping up where necessary and making sure they didn't do any mistakes expected from naive young royals
Ned would definitely have been a better king than Robert, Stannis, Renly, Tywin or anyone else. If Ned had become king Jaime would've been sent to the Wall for killing Aerys. And The Mountain and Amory Lorch would've been sliced by Ice for murdering Elia and her children. And Tywin would've stood for all of it because his only other option would've been to go to war against the four armies that just mopped up the Targaryen Dynasty. Tywin would've gone back to Casterly Rock dreaming of vengeance he'd likely never be able to take. Having earned the ire of the Dornish and all other Targaryen loyalist left in Westeros Tywin would have no allies and no moves to make against King Ned. Having brought Elia's murders to justice Ned would've earned the loyalty or at least respect of house Martel. He probably would've dismissed Pycele for the part he played in the sack of Kingslanding. And probably Varys too for just being too shady. Ned never would've allowed Little Finger on the small council. Also he likely would've taken Tyrion, Willas Tyrell, and Arianne or Quentyn Martell as wards to assure the loyalty of their houses. And would have treated them well which could've further fostered good relations with the lordlings and some of their sires houses. Tywin like Balon Greyjoy could never be trusted of course, but I could see Mace and Doran coming around if their children were treated well. Most importantly Ned would rule the seven kingdoms as he ruled the North. Offering a fair hearing and swift justice to all his subjects. In Winterfell Ned feasted with one of his bannermen every fortnight. And on many other nights he feasted with his lower born subjects. This custom allowed Ned to maintain strong relationships with all his subjects, gain the measure of their character & abilities and continually remind them that he appreciated their service. I can think of no reason he wouldn't have done the same with all the lords significant vassels of Westeros had he sat the Iron Throne.
Ned never told Cat about Jon because the more he got to know her, the more he saw how fiercely she loved and protected her children. If she knew Jon was Rhaegar's son and was ever in a position where she could save her kids by giving up Jon, she would (but she would have no reason to consider this if he was just Ned's bastard). Similar to how she went rogue and gave up Jaime to save Sansa & Arya, which could be considered treason.
I think I might have an idea about the ironborn theory video. Problably something along the line of them being descendants of people arround Ashai. People related to the Bloodstone Emperor. People who made at least one very big ship made of Essos weirwood. Some very big ship, wich remais of weirwood petrified and eventually got mistaken for being Nagga's ribs. Wich means that Euron might be a direct descendant of the Bloodstone emperor, just as he is problably trying to do the exact same thing his ancestor did. And then, at last, the circle will be complete. Very awesomely.
I think you're close to the mark there Eric!
I disagree with Ned being able to trust Cat with Jon's secret. As soon as she got the letter from Lysa regarding Jon Arryn's death, she literally tells everyone. She tells everyone everything. She kinda never shuts up, till she's dead.
Love your longer streams and videos. I even put some on that I’ve already watched so I can fall asleep to them.
Really cool perspective on Ned as usual. I think your character analyses are underrated in comparison to your work on symbolism. But I do think that the symbolism and character go hand in hand, the symbolism being a parallel to the values of the characters in the story.
My take on Ned is that he is a reactive person as opposed to being a proactive person. He doesn't have a vision for how things should be, but he does work from what his values are. So when life throws a curveball at him he consults his values and reacts to situations and circumstances. He plays it safe. In contrast to Ned. I think Jon is a visionary. He takes risks, he strikes deals with wildlings, with the iron bank, etc. When Ned knows that trouble is coming he doesn't try to find allies, he doesn't involve Stannis fast enough. Finally he has no other person to trust except Littlefinger of all people. It makes him quite predictable to his enemies too, since he is not trying new things. He also doesn't act fast enough. He doesn't like leaving his comfort zone, literally (Winterfell).
Ohhh excited to hear the iron born vid is so close! Know it's going to be well worth the wait. Great job on another awesome live stream!
Sad I missed the live but looking forward to listening on the rewatch
I'd really like to learn when and why Benjen joined the watch. He could have helped keep Ned more in touch with what was going on in the south if he'd stayed within the family.
The Dothraki would have to actually get to westeros in the first place, and considering that the Westerosi seem to have considerable naval forces I'd say that's might be quite difficult for them. They'd also be pretty easy to defeat in skirmishes with armoured Westerosi archers, crossbowmen and knights to support. Without support from rebellious lords they wouldn't realistically have much chance. Unless somehow Dany hatches a few dragon eggs, but that would never happen.....
Loved it! Could listen to Ned commentary for hours ❤
Aw nice, a tribute to how everybody is afraid of Ned, I remember pointing this out to people many years back
Awesome stream! Really Good. Thanks David & Tim. HBO should've hired David & Tim instead of Dan & Dave.
Always a good time hangin w LML an GWT ❤ thanks for the edutainment 😺
Ned should have brought a lot more swords with him to the south. Atleast 300, and maybe a few fierce northern bannermen or their heirs
Hello lml just wanted to thank you for the fascinating content you offer us, greetings from 🇲🇽🇲🇽!!
Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning
Evokes the Sword in the Stone by T.H. White, where King Arthur is raised in secret as a common-born squire. This suggests that Jon is secretly the true-born King
Oswell Whent, the symbol of a bat with outstretched wings on his helmet
Whent is a bat-man. Batman's parents were killed, and he grew up to be a dark hero. Also supported by one of Dany's visions where we see what is presumed to be Rhaegar defeated at the Trident, and rubies fly from the chest of a dying prince, like the pearls when Martha Wayne is shot. It tells us that both of Jon's parents are dead, he's not Ned's bastard, although we figured that out a long time ago.
Gerold Hightower, the White Bull
Lots of sacrificial bulls and Taurus bulls in myth but I know of only two white bulls, both from Greek myth:
1. Zeus transformed himself into a white bull to kidnap Europa. It's a myth about the shape of Europe. Could perhaps hint at Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna.
2. The Cretan Bull, sent by Poseidon, was supposed to be sacrificed but wasn't, fathered the Minotaur. Captured by Heracles then released on mainland Greece. Eventually killed by Theseus, who went on to kill the Minotaur in the Labyrinth too, which he did to stop Athenians being periodically taken as slaves and sacrificed to the Minotaur
Theseus was the son of a the King of Athens, and also of Poseidon (because myth), raised in secret, until he was old enough to claim his birthright
It's got to be the Cretan Bull, it both suggests Jon is a true-born son raised in secret, and that he was supposed to be sacrificed
that's interesting about the supposed to be sacrificed part. I'd still point first to Mithras's sacrifice of the white bull, which is part of his rebirth, but the Theseus thing might be part of it too
I think that Ned may have lost short term because he allways will do the rigth thing in line with his sense of morality, but i think he will win long term. Neds unwillingness to compremise will save the world
basically that's how I see it, and that's why I made the joke about the Starks and Northmen all wearing What Would Ned Do bracelets
Great stream! What do you think about the burning of Shireen causing outbreak of grey plague? I was thinking it kinda might make sense for burning to reactivate it by putting it into a vapor (like a fog). Garin’s curse was effective against Valyrians, maybe burning exacerbates it. I think Val’s concerns are foreshadowing this.
oh interesting comp to Garins fog yeah. I could see it
This is one of my favorite lore sessions by you and Tim. Am rewatching and feeding the algorithm. 💫
Glad I came across this vid 😊 Ned is easily one of my favorite if not absolute favorite characters. The way he wears his Stark traits on his sleeve as this serious, honorable, and stoic man is incredible. Those are all traits I imagine in myself.
These videos are all so dang entertaining, I LOVE this content. Great work, guys.
Thanks for the stream. Fun to analyze Ned, a great character.
These streams are so relaxing. I can listen for hours.
Can't wait for the Iron born video!
Yet another awesome stream my good Sers! Thank you ❤
Very well made, love the content
New tyrell slogan "let the good times roll"😂😂😂
Most Knowledgeable Maester, the David Lightbringer story-love all your works!
Awesome stream as usual! Gonna rewatch at work Tuesday where I can re absorb the information. When are the Iron Born vids coming out? Really looking forward to them!
1:47. Thanks for GC shoutout during the live and decided to jam out to them. Thanks for sharing artists some of your audience wasn’t aware of. Late for the stream because I praised Garth and listened to a 2hr live Darkstar my friend sent me.
This was a great steam. REally enjoyed seeing Ned from a different perspective.
Finally someone gives Ned the respect he deserves and doesnt just label him as an ignorant fool as many in the fandom do!
You will probably be annoyed since i have already mentioned it before and i know you dont agree but bear with me.
I m on team Dany becoming much darker and defenely embracing fire and blood for her own ambitions.The show showed her being hated in Westeros and shown as a bad figure which i think it will also happen in the books.
I think that will parrarel Azor Ahai perfectly.A legendary figure who is praised in the East as a hero known by diffrent names similar to how Dany will be immortalized as the savior of slaves, mysha ,breaker of chains and countless other names but both of them will be despised in westeros and seen as bad.(Just a thought i know you dont agree i just wanted to share my opinion).
I do have a random question for you though.i dont know if you have answered it before but have you explained why would a murder of a woman(nissa nissa-amethyst)cause the long night?I mean im sure we have seen countless killings raoes tortures etc,why would that specific murder cause the long night why was it such a vile act compared to other murders?
Amazing livestream as always you are one of the best asoiaf creators !
no I do agree many in westeros will resist her and see her as a mad queen. George is gonna play with that space for sure
@55:00 Jon Arryn is also a major general along with Hoster Tully, Ned and Robert at the battle of the trident
Hoster wasn't, he'd taken a wound in the Battle of the Bells
the nightswatch vows would they actually bind him I mean Jon would swore them by wrong name
If he's trueborn, he could essentially release himself from his oath as the rightful king. He would have had a few ways out.
Hadn’t really thought about Ned quite that way, but you guys have convinced me 💁♂️
One of these days I'll catch one live.
This is an awesome subject. I missed the original and am glad it came up on my feed.
Great stream... as always!
I know I'm really late, but I couldn't catch up the stream and I have a really crazy theory about all the R + L = J thing.
At Harrenhal, Rhaegar was trying to win the lords to his cause, perhaps to call for a great council or maybe even to prepare a huge alliance to depose Aerys by force. As we know, the Mad King showed up and fucked up his plans of a discreet skeem behind closed doors.
However, all the lords were already there so who knows if Rhaegar still tried to win them over.
I think he met Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and decided to crown her Queen of Love and Beauty as a reward. But maybe, also as a way of inserting himself onto the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliance. Yes, it was not well received at the moment, but Rickard Stark was a man with huge southern ambitions. Perhaps Lord Stark saw the prince was interested in his daughter and tried to approach him (or at least that could be what Rhaegar wanted).
At that point everyone knew that Elia was really frail and almost died in childbirth, I'm sure many lords were waiting until the right moment to offer their daughters to the prince of the realm. Even when Elia did not die giving birth to Aegon, she did end up not being able to bring to term another pregancy by risk of dying. So who wouldn't take a chance of making his daughter a queen in a near future or even just the mother of a prince (a kid could be legitimazed and taken in count in the line of succecion even if their parents were not married).
Here is where my theory goes kinda nuts. I think when Rhaegar found out Elia couln't give him that third child who will end up fullfiling the prophecy, he went in search for someone who could (that is almost a headcanon in R+L=J). Instead of just chosing some random northern girl to fit the Ice & Fire shit, he decided to go for the one who will give him a huge political advance against his father. Rickard, when presented with the choice of a prince for his daughter over a simple lord (Robert), would have probably accepted because as it has been established, he had great ambitions. This could have went down in two ways:
1. Rhaegar offered to take Lyanna as his second wife as in old valyria by marrying her in front of a Heart Tree. If he had a wife taken in front of the new gods and another in front of the old ones, perhaps the faith wouldn't have went against it so harshly (I mean, they think the Old Gods and it's religion are stupid, why would they legitimaze them by taking offense in a marriage done in those ways).
2. Rhaegar offered to legitimaze whatever child he could have with Lyanna and give them a place in the line of succesion. This could have even worked out in her favour, because if she did bear the prince's child, Robert couldn't have possibly wanted to marry her (purely out of spite and anger he would make sure to reject her) wich seemed to be what she desired, to get free of her engagement.
So Elia can't have more children, Rhaegar makes a deal with Rickard and he goes to fetch Lyanna in secret so that no one suspects anything (specially his father and Robert). It has always seemed odd to me how fast the banner's were raised during Robert's Rebellion, specially in the north, so perhaps the lords were already preparing for a conflict against Aerys at that point. That could explain why the matter with Lyanna had to be done with discretion, so that the Mad King did not suspect any type of treason from his son.
I think if Rickard had decided to broke the engagement with House Baratheon he would have probably wanted to wait until everything was settled before anouncing it to Robert. If his plans failed, Rickard would have probably retracted himself and decide to marry Lyanna to Robert still. Who knows, perhaps he was already thinking of marrying her to Robert anyways, even if she had Rhaegar's child.
All this seems like a reasonable plan for Rhaegar to depose his father and fulfill the prophecy at the same time (althought a little bit out there, I must admit). But, of course, Rickard didn't tell anyone of his plans and when Brandon heared (probably from Peteyr) that his sister had disappeared with the prince, he went and did something stupid. And just like that...everything went to fuck ! All because of Brandon, can you imagine ?
Anyways, I know this is crazy and it's just a theory I have been thinking about for a few monyhs now. I was not sure if to share it somwhere or not, but since you were talking about the mattrr in these stream I decided...why not?
PD: Sorry for my bad English, I'm from Spain. Love your content and love Ned Stark, the best two hours of my life ❤.
no that's not crazy you present some interesting ideas! I'm chewing on them 👌
Also consider that if Petyr Baelish can be placed in the location, he does have the motive to do so. Brandon is
1) Cat’s fiancée and thus Petyr’s romantic rival and
2) the dude who nearly killed him in a duel for Cat
That’s the sort of thing that causes generational vendettas. Ugh, dude’s such a creep. I wonder if he’s actually there, “on page”…
Your English is incredible, I had no idea it wasn't your primary language. Interesting thoughts!
Great content from my fav duo. ❤ Dave and Tim!
Amazing! Tim is always that EXTRA too 🔥
I think the bones are important and carry the soul or at least part of it. Melisandre, the hand Summer eats, all the bones in the weirwood cave. I think the bones need a proper burial close to a weirwood to get to the afterlife in the weirwood net. Thats why Lady Dustin is pissed. Ned brought Lyanna's bones back but not her husband.
I think maybe the Valeryan Steel Swords take a piece of the soul as well. Nissa Nissa's blood and soul went into the steal. Perhaps It is the memories that Beric loses. Like King Arthur when he was resurrected and got his memories or his soul back from his sword Excalibur.
YES! There is so much mystery about Danny’s birth
I have been patiently waiting for the Tywin roast since thanksgiving. 😍
Hmm. A man who allows his honor to be besmirched and does the right thing even when he doesn’t get credit. Sounds kinda like a Jaime parallel
So much fun, very happy to catch the two of you live!
LiceBringer - the Ice and Lightbringer connection makes perfect sense now
“That was a full bull……praise Garth” lol
But I don’t think Ned would have killed Theon I think he would have just kept him safe and placed him on the sea stone chair.
i love you guys!! the level of geekery and commitment is is impressive!! :-) i spend hours watching/ listening to your content! im in there deep with you guys. you helped me get thrpugh my first year as a widow( my geek died in march 2017. ASOIAF was his thing, i joined in 2012 with the G OT show.
i slowly reading them too, i had read fore n blood a few years.
😥😢😭🥲🫂❤
Great stream! I suppose implacability would be particularly terrifying to those who have to flow with the game of thrones. 🙂
Catching up on the rewatch. Great stuff everyone from any chat to mods GWT and of course, LML. George’s work is so involving that 90% of any and every interpretation overlaps with another. 👏👏👏 like the WWJD/WWND comparisons. Arya in more WWLD though.