Most Feared Man in Westeros - the Eddard Stark story - A Song of Ice and Fire - Game of Thrones
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- We readers tend to see Ned through the eyes of his kids, and through the lens of his own hidden doubt and fears... but to everyone else, he's the most feared man in Westeros! This is an aspect of his character that is often lost in the mix, so we'll start there and discuss all the various things pulling on his life and his decisions. Featuring @GreyWaste !!
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Title image uses "Eddard Stark" by John Picacio and "Weirwood tree" by Lunar Morrigan Arts
I've come to completely disagree with the narrative that Ned was too naive or honorable to survive in the south. Ned was in no way incompetent he was just late. By the time he arrived the Lannisters were already making attempts on Robert's life. And despite having to rely on uncertain allies like Little Finger & Varys, Ned uncovered Cersi's treachery and had a plan to deal with Tywin and Jamie in the Riverlands. But before he could report Cersi's treachery to Robert, Robert was killed. And before his bannermen could assemble and march south to confront the Lannister army ravaging the Riverlands Little Finger double crossed him. Not to mention the machinations of Little Finger and Varys which were also well underway by the time Ned arrived. And the bad luck of Catelyn running into Tyrion at the crossroads, instigating her diversion into the Vale and delaying her carrying Ned's order to call his banners.
that's fair, and it's been argued George's writing is sort of forcing the plot here, a serious of very unfortunate timing things that lead to his death, as you say. I actually fault Ned for not maintaining any sort of contacts or intelligence in KL to keep abreast of what's going on. He left it to Jon Arryn and King Robert and then was shocked to see how bad things were when he got there
giving Cersei the chance to flee and then not heeding Renly were both big mistakes imo
@@DavidLightbringerYeah I will concede he should have handled Cersi differently. As Hand of the King Ned had the authority to arrest Cersi for treason on Robert's behalf as soon as he found proof of her adultery. And if he wanted to protect the children from Robert, he could have sent them to Essos before Robert returned from hunting. If Robert survived he would have been pissed. But the worst thing he would likely have done would've been to remove Ned as Hand and send him back North. If he made his move while Robert was alive Renly would have backed him up, which would have given him enough men to overwhelm the Lannister soldiers in the Red Keep without having to rely on Little Finger. None of these moves could've saved Robert, but they would have saved Ned and all but ensured that he, Stannis, and Renly could have defeated the rest of the Lannisters in the Riverlands. I'm also confident that if Ned had been alive to support Stannis' claim Renly would never have had the balls to make his own claim.
Ned in King's Landing was the definition of a bull in a China shop and I believe GRRM wrote it to be perceived that way.
Ned's biggest character flaw is not plain stupidity or naivety or extreme honesty. It is a relentless expectation that people in general will follow rules and defer to authority. "Well I'm the Hand now so they have to do what I say." No they don't Ned.
Telegraphing his plans to Cersei was not just stupidity, naivety, or mercy. It bordered on self-destructive psychotic behavior. It was an extreme miscalculation.
Renly recognizes that Ned has shifted from stubbornness to a totally new level of refusing-to-accept-reality. We, the readers, are meant to mirror Renly's disbelief and exasperation in that moment.
@@DavidLightbringercersie plan to kill Robert was already underway and ned isnt omnipotent ned also knows Robert has been hunting thousands of times before why would he believe that time Robert was going to die
Ned always stuck me as a guy who was skeptical of the magic/prophecy in the world -- not because he didn't believe it was real, but because he is terrified that it might be real.
Yeah, like he's taking on so much already he definitely doesn't have the capacity to add a mystical layer to his responsibilities
@@Okcucumber haha so true
Dragons, white walkers AND Lanisters. Total migraine.
Ned suffers for, and keeps the secrets of others, while the Lannisters make others suffer for their own secrets and desires. And Robert puts his pleasure before duty, while Ned puts honor and duty before even his own family, until he falsely confesses and sacrifices himself, his honor,(as he did with Jon) in duty to his family, and dies figuratively and actually.
Well put
@@prairieskyethank you, from what I can tell grrm creates a weave of traits, archetypes, arc types and events with parallels, preconfigurations, and dichotomies.
great point!
Ned is a traitor in principle
He did disobey his king's final wishes
Ned didn't prioritize his honor. He didn't even consider himself that honorouble.
He just thinks that children should not be put in danger because he was traumatized when he saw thw Targ kids corpses. Cause he played a hand in their deaths all for his revenge.
There is something so tragic about Ned that touches me more than with other characters with tragic past. He seems so lonely with his secrets.
There have to be few who still know a few secrets alongside that Ned knew. Probably Howland Reed and Baby Benjen. Maybe even a few more people at Starfall.
@@travismcnasty4239 Of course ! But people he couldn't risk to contact by raven and letters. And he can't go to them physically either. Even Benjen is far away. At winterfell he was alone, watching Jon grew around his kids and seeing how difficult it is for him and Catelyn who don't know the truth.
I loved how Jon and Rob both simultaneously took a man's life in the style Ned did. Both simply because their "father" raised them to act in honor if required to take a man's life. Never pass the deed on like a coward.
I wonder if the other boys will do this too. And maybe if Sansa and Arya missed something important by being left out of that lesson.
I think Ned's isolationist/stick to the north & stay out of southern politics was #1 because of Jon & #2 he was disgusted with Robert over the sack of KL, the rape & murder of Rhaegar's family & his alliance with Tywin/The Lannisters #3 the tragic & cruel deaths of his sister, brother & father probably threw water on any romantic ideas of honor in warfare/combat. The north was just different culturally & he could deal with the devil he knew there(aka the politics & alliances of his countrymen) so it wasn't a bad strategy initially. He really should have stayed in the loop about KL via the spy/gossip hotline for extra safety for his family but I totally get being so soured on an experience you never want to think about it again & just put it in the rear view mirror. His biggest flaw was assuming if he treated others with respect, honesty & compassion they would be appreciative & recipricate in kind. KL was a pit of vipers he just wasn't prepared for.
I always feel like when people take the stance that Ned was ruthless enough or was 'honorable to a fault', they're really selling him short. He was incredibly intelligent and an excellent detective. He was just surrounded by enemies on all sides. That's what it took to take him down.
The throne, i think, is often overlooked. Half way through so I don't know if it's mentioned, but the in-book description and the concept art of the Iron Throne makes it a big monstrous thing that took deliberate effort to climb up to and be found seated on, you can google accurate depictions.
It's almost a few stories tall, jagged and sharp, with uneven and chaotic steps to the seat.
Jamie sitting on the throne in the show would be no big deal, but Jamie sitting on the throne in the books is clearly an act of some crazy egotistical theatrics.
Nedd and the reader are completely justified in thinking Jamie is a tool at best and villain at worst, especially pre the main story.
Ned’s bones won’t be laid to rest until his children all come together I’m not sure if that’s a metaphorical thing or a physical thing but I feel like all of neds worldly business and regrets are symbolized in his bones and once his children have fulfilled them he can rest in peace
This fits with a comment @Karl Karlsnark made about how many religions have beliefs around the possibility for resurrection if all of someone's bones can be kept together.
His children being all together and remembering him (WWND) would work together to highlight his memory living on, and as a type of resurrection/last cohesion of Ned's life and legacy.
Ned must’ve developed some serious trauma from Roberts Rebellion. And it’s hard to blame him… Rickard and Brandon, Lyanna and Jon, as well as the lie… Plus Benjen joins the Watch shortly thereafter.
War made men out of the boys lucky enough to survive…
On the subject of Ned’s trauma though… he seemed to really regress. It’s like he thought if he kept his entire family in Winterfell they would never be unsafe. To the point where Sansa is completely unequipped to deal with anything.
Ned is a good man. But like all parents he failed his children in ways he perhaps should’ve seen, but ultimately didn’t.
But Sansa's naivete is from being raised by a Southron wife of privilege and Septas who taught her to be a lady and to "arm herself in courtesy and charm". I don't blame Ned for that. I'm sure he tried to instill some Northern sensibilities in her, but at her age, she likely put more importance in the social construct she was expected to be a part of.
LML mentioned that Ned may have adopted Jon Arryn's politics - what are the politics of the Vale that we see?
Shore up in the Eyrie to protect your family.
@@GypsySummer1northern sensibilities wouldn't have helped her much
Kinda nonsense. No 11 year is old equipped to deal with any situations listed. Arya isn't dealing with it either, she just happens to be a murderous sociopath who thrives in violence.
@@Sinewmire Good point
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Thanks Tracy for the reminder
🎉 ofcourse
Always
commenting and replying to other comments!
@@cherylbaxter8986how did you get those lil emojis for GOT??
Really excellent discussion. Love Ned & he was perfectly played by Sean Bean on the show
What cool observations on why Ned and Robert got along so well in the Vale. Robert was “a more coachable Brandon” - so true 😂
hey thanks a lot! and yeah people try to work out their trauma by trying to redo things sometimes.... poor Ned
@@DavidLightbringer These credible musings are truly the nooks and crannies of this series. So satisfying to fill them in and go back for additional bites!
I always noted that Robert made me think of the way they describe Brandon in the books. It was never put quite that explicity in the text but I also got a feel that Robert reminded Ned of Brandon, both good and bad.
And Ned was "a more likeable Stannis" is also so true
Pork elk hybrid@@rottenpotato4733
For reals "From the Frostfangs to Dorne people *know* Ned Stark." Holy shlamoly vuys that was deep. I love ot so much because i am such a Ned and Cat fan that i need to hear more people singin one or both of their praises.
While it had many narrative purposes, it feels like the brutal killing of Elia’s children and Robert being supportive of it, really is meant to emphasize why Ned would have had to lie about Jon’s parentage, even sacrificing the feelings of his wife to do it.
yeah it's like: "either I tell her and she keeps the secret or spills it, resulting in Jon's head being bashed against the nearest wall and my kids in trouble, OR I never tell anyone and no chances of my family dying from targ related reasons again"
I feel like the Tully words, Family Duty Honour apply more to Ned than any Tully we meet
The Tully words sound kinda like a mafia motto tbh in the context of the Tullys
more like arryn's words As high as honor
It's like the 'world peace' of personal values
I think Catelyn lives up to them pretty well
Edmure, Catelyn, and the Blackfish represent those words very well.
Everyone always talks about how Ned Stark's "honor" is what got him killed. But the reality is that he wasn't put to death until AFTER he publicly lied and admitted to treason (in hopes of saving his children.) It was the sacrifice of his honor for his children that killed him.
It was crazy Joffrey that killed him, manipulated by Littlefinger... Ned was not getting out of it alive, whatever he chose to do
The honour point is that if he'd acted less honourably - if he'd seized power instead of giving Cersei the chance to flee - he never would've been in that situation.
His honor killed him. He should have announced to the world that those kids were bastards. But his honor (and probably on some level Jon’s hidden parentage) lead to him warning Cersei and making no public proclamations about the children (which as Regeant he had the ability to do).
Neds children died because Ned’s honor wouldn’t allow him to harm children.
One child died. And that one by fault of Catelyn not Ned. not children plural, they're all alive but Robb. and he wouldnt even. be in that situation if ti wasnt for catelyn's stupidity/impulsiveness/whatever you wanna call it@@thomasleonardis711 And again he made a pact with Varys and in extension Cersei to save his kids and the realm, over his "honour" as you called it. Not even Cersei wanted him dead (she was smarter than Catelyn in that she knew it would be outright war). Ned's childeen died because Littlefinger wanted him to die and he found a way over Joeffrey and Catelyn and Illyn Payne
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 his weakness was always children. He couldn’t see children hurt. He couldn’t harm children or be party to it. That isn’t a betrayal or a dismissal of his honor. It’s part of his code of honor. It’s exactly who he is and how he acts. Even in the the rebellion. His honor killed him. And if you think Robb will be the only dead stark by the end of the books I have a swamp out back I wanna sell you.
You don't keep secrets by telling people about them. Ned not telling Catelyn about baby Jon's heritage was SMART!
Yeah, he didn't know her _that_ well when he first got back with Jon, and seeing how she treated him...I'd be worried if I told her, what if shed get sick of people thinking he was unfaithful to her, and shed spill it to someone
And just all the reasons one might not think of at the time... how about if Catelyn made a statement that inadvertently caused someone to start questioning things.... and that leads to a secret being uncovered. Even with good intent, accidents happen.
Agreed. A fish that keeps its mouth closed never gets hooked.. al Capone was talking about bragging after commiting crimes but I think it still fits with ned
yep, for all he knew she would've still disliked Jon, just for him not being a bastard but for being a threat to her children and the reason the war started. Of course she disliked Jon for Ned's infidelity, but Ned didn't know that, Ned probably thought that if she hated the fact he cheated she would blame him and not the child, because Ned himself is the kind of person who doesn't blame children for parent's crimes.
Some say he should've told her Jon is Brandon's, but Catelyn would probably fear Jon even more thinking that he could be used to overthrow her children.
And if she knew about the targ stuff, I could somewhat imagine a scene where Robb wants to name Jon his heir and Catelyn, to emotional to think, goes "no you can't do it, he is a targaryen!!" in front of northern lords.
Not saying she is overly emotional because she is a woman. It's just her personal trait, to think with her heart rather than brain when her children are involved. Jaime proves it.
3:57 Oz, another HBO series from the mid-90s did this also. The only difference is that it happens in the first episode! You meet one prison inmate and you start to feel empathy for him.
He's killed for a stupid reason about 4/5ths of the way through the pilot and it's sad. That was when I had a similar moment of realisation that no one was safe and that life was cheap. Knowing this from the start greatly enhanced the feelings of horror, terror and despair the viewer is pummled with for the rest of the series.
jorah had to maintain that wifestyle
I don't want to see Jorah blaming any love potion for that! ;)
When it comes to the "Shadow" of Ned, you have to remember, that he is a Stark! A Stark, one of the liniage that keeps the north together for over 8000 years, the kings in the north, the last ones to bow to aegon the conquerer. The Starks, who fight giants and things beyond the wall. who can trace their liniage back by their dead in their crypt.
The ones who maybe the most myth and legends surrounding them, not to forget the location geographically. they are in the north. noone comes there, and noone leaves.
The legends that circle the north and must be enough in the south to make children shake in fear when they are told bedtime storys.
And than you meet Ned, a guy who has killed one of the greatest fighters that ever lived, who doesnt talk much but instead stares at you with ice cold piercing eyes.
I mean, would you fuck with a guy like that?!
Great stream, great convo, great chat. We really got to the heart of what GRRM wants us to do - argue about the characters, and their complexities. This Eddard stream was better than I expected. I love good surprises. 😊
You're a pretty great mod and helped keep conversation going. You really helped me feel comfortable and welcome, personally! Thanks!
@@AndyAgainI agree Andy. A community can be ruined by its mods such as on reddit. However GOOD Mods like we fortunate enough to have here in the LmL-verse are a big part of why i feel so comfortable and welcome here. Really critical for an open minded insight into any complex topic
thanks Devoted and yes I tried to bring some fresh takes :)
@@ThommyofThenn Yes! I love the LmL-verse! I'm excited to see him growing it more all the time.
It takes a strong leader with clear values (like we have in @davidlightbringer) and the mods help make sure those values permeate.
I'm forever impressed that LmL is able to carry on a discussion, keep track of *a lot* of what's going on the comments, manage Cleo... everything. David is impressive and he's created such an impressive community.
Thank you, NordicThommy, for welcoming me into this part of it, I feel honoured. (I've been a *very* long time podcast listener and patron, but new to participating.)
@@AndyAgain that's really great. I've only just started listening to hours-long podcast type videos a few years ago. 40k was the first but nowadays asoiaf livestreams are the majority of my youtube viewing
"My Lords, Balon Greyjoy of the Iron Islands has undertaken a rebellion!"
"Oh no!"
"Oh no!"
*Robert with his armour straining to contain his bloated body bursting through a wall*
*"OH YEEEAAAH!"*
@David Lightbringer I think it’s an overlooked point that the reason Robert was agreed upon as king was the blood right; his paternal grandmother was a daughter of Aegon V
I love these character deep dives, and Eddard Stark, most dearest man in... oh wait, most feared man in Westeros! Seriously, even before Sean Bean's iconic 1 season portrayal, I think most of us loved this character. In that first book and season, we all just wanted him to win the Game of Thrones.
Interesting echo between Ned and Rob…before both of them actually battle, they have the wedding/betrothal. If Rob had actually married the Frey girl then and there, I think he wins the war against the Lannisters, just like Ned marrying Catelyn almost assuredly wins the the rebellion for him and Robert. Walder doesn’t betray Rob if that’s his legal son in law, and his daughter is a Queen instead of a Lady.
Interesting. Jon pretty well did the same by wedding ygritte (wildling style) before battle. Also likewise in it assuring his place with Mance
This is my new favorite video. I'm usually obsessed with the deep symbolism, ancient history, Euron-centric streams. Nice to get back to basics sometimes. It also makes sense that King's Landing and everyone in it should be petrified of Ned, given that the last time he rode into the Crownlands, the city was sacked and destroyed and most of the royal family was wiped out. Though Ned himself had little to do with the atrocities committed in the latter parts of the Rebellion, hard to extricate yourself from those things when you're seen as a leader. Same goes for the Tower of Joy. Though the reader might be given a sliver of doubt about how Dayne met his end, it doesn't change the fact that the rest of the world sees him as the guy that stomped the Sword of the Morning. And Weirwood Twitter is still in beta at the moment so everyone and their mother doesn't have a horn of joramun or a glass candle to dig their claws into the juiciest gossip.
If Robert had lived after his boar hunt I 100 percent know he would have killed Cersei, the kids and then would have lost weight to fight the Lannisters. He's only in his mid 30's he would absolutely do that.
On his death bed he says killing kids are bad tho
If Robert survived his boar hunt, Cersei would just poison him another day.
@@jessjess23brooks89 na she would die
Love the Ned talk, one of my favorite characters!!
The idea of ravens as moon meteor symbolism is interesting since ravens carry messages in this world. A message from the stars on meteorite is both Lovecraftian and reminds me of the Bloodstone Emperor and others worshipping/being bewitched by Black Stone.
Ravens appearing as an “eruption from the stars” gives big Starry Wisdom vibes.
yes it does, especially in the scene where Coldhands saves Sam and Gilly. void messengers. and I think that's the idea with Odinn's ravens too, essentially
@@DavidLightbringer I love that!
I never watched Dredd besides the more recent non-stallone movie. It seemed to me Dredd either enjoyed or was totally ambivalent towards killing. I think Ned doesn't enjoy it and he probably thought about it at length during his sword cleaning seshs. Stannis is way more Dredd in that I don't think he really feels bad at all if people die. He views it as a necessity and would prefer if it weren't *his* men that died
💯 agree
Stannis and Dredd have an unassailable sense of their own righteousness only balanced by their sense of duty even at their own cost. Doing justice as they see it (but truly as they see it not as it would benefit them) is essential and fulfilling for them. They do their duty and tend to rest easily after without pangs of guilt due to that unassailable sense of righteousness.
The anecdote about grrmartin changing the book narrative so that Jon beheads Slynt, rather than having him hanged....that was so interesting.
It was also rather sweet.
It showed that grrmartin is open to ideas. and that he listens to people.
That can be a really tough thing to do, especially if you've been slaving away over a hot PC for years, then someone lounges in and says, "Oh bloke,! I ran an eye over your years of work and here's where you went wrong."
Many a perfectly pleasant person would want to have that "helper" hanged.
Or beheaded.
It’s a good thing Ned never told Cat. The whole of the 7 kingdoms would have known by the end of the week!🤦♀️
I think Jon’s name is Aemon too. I think it’s going to be something that Jon find comforting when he finds out he’s a Targaryen that he got to know Maester Aemon before he died. It’s going to be a big deal to him that he learned what he did about his family from such an amazing person.
Does make sense considering everyone knows he defeated the sword of the morning and why Jaime is so keen in show to fight him.
arya totally wears the "what would ned do" band when she murdered the night's watch deserter daeron, she just picks and chooses what she should follow from what ned taught
Perhaps it was a piece of information Lyanna had that made Rhaegar bail on politics and tunnel vision on prophecy? Great stream.
Coupled with his failure at Harrenhall. Rhaegar had been pushed into a corner where killing his father was the only way out of the political mess.
Thinking of Ned seeing Arya and trying to find a way she can be herself but not be killed is so heartbreaking.
And thank you for bringing up how Ned wanting to protect Sansa and keep her close when they go to King's Landing didnt really serve her well. Sansa was great at courtesies and needlework and being kind and generous, but she wasn't ready to marry a King. I wonder if Ned had someone in the North in mind for her before Robert showed up. Still, I feel for both the Stark girls, neither prepared for what their lives will be in reality.
ARYA X NED DAYNE!!!! I've never thought of it, but they'd be perfect!
To be fair Joffrey wasn't ready to be a king as much and more than Sansa be a king's wife. Probably because they were still teens. Even in real life medieval it's rare for young rulers to be expected to be ready for the throne or responsibility, so I doubt anyone expected any independent thinking from them this young, even if Robert died next day they married, they would still be mostly symbols to everyone with their relatives making decisions. Tho tbf in real life the court would be filled with relatives and friends of family of Sansa and Joffrey, stepping up where necessary and making sure they didn't do any mistakes expected from naive young royals
Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning
Evokes the Sword in the Stone by T.H. White, where King Arthur is raised in secret as a common-born squire. This suggests that Jon is secretly the true-born King
Oswell Whent, the symbol of a bat with outstretched wings on his helmet
Whent is a bat-man. Batman's parents were killed, and he grew up to be a dark hero. Also supported by one of Dany's visions where we see what is presumed to be Rhaegar defeated at the Trident, and rubies fly from the chest of a dying prince, like the pearls when Martha Wayne is shot. It tells us that both of Jon's parents are dead, he's not Ned's bastard, although we figured that out a long time ago.
Gerold Hightower, the White Bull
Lots of sacrificial bulls and Taurus bulls in myth but I know of only two white bulls, both from Greek myth:
1. Zeus transformed himself into a white bull to kidnap Europa. It's a myth about the shape of Europe. Could perhaps hint at Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna.
2. The Cretan Bull, sent by Poseidon, was supposed to be sacrificed but wasn't, fathered the Minotaur. Captured by Heracles then released on mainland Greece. Eventually killed by Theseus, who went on to kill the Minotaur in the Labyrinth too, which he did to stop Athenians being periodically taken as slaves and sacrificed to the Minotaur
Theseus was the son of a the King of Athens, and also of Poseidon (because myth), raised in secret, until he was old enough to claim his birthright
It's got to be the Cretan Bull, it both suggests Jon is a true-born son raised in secret, and that he was supposed to be sacrificed
that's interesting about the supposed to be sacrificed part. I'd still point first to Mithras's sacrifice of the white bull, which is part of his rebirth, but the Theseus thing might be part of it too
I’m sad I missed the live stream! I love this chat. Ned is a wonderful complex character. So much good mixed with naïveté. He’s did know how to play the game of thrones and didn’t want to. I loved the conversation about how others perceive Ned and why. I love your channel and your content! Also, I love that you discuss ADHD and your experience. It’s so relatable to see how hyper focus (a superpower of ADHD) can be used so effectively! Your channel is brilliant! Love Gray waste Tim! Wish you’d do one with Gray Area. I miss hearing her!
hyperfocusing our way along, yes that's it
I believe the children of the forest are linked to adhd, you know hunter gatherer syndrome
26:43 Grey Waste Tim just mentioned arguably the best line of the television show that was not pulled directly from the book (I think, correct me if I'm wrong, please). He poses the question of whether five armies are as strong as one. She says five, so he holds up five fingers, then closes his fist "Five....one." Definitely a high point of the show, at least for me. I'd sum it up like this, Tywin, Tarly, Bolton, all these guys are great tacticians. But tactics become a bust without a strategy to guide them. Ned and Robert understood basic tactics, they understood their capabilities, augmented by their experience fighting wars since they were teenagers, but they still remain aware of the greater threats to any and all plans they might lay out and their own inherent weaknesses. They don't fall into complacency based on their success, they remember what it took to win their wars, and therefore they understand what their enemies need in order to defeat them. That's true confidence. As much as I love the character, I'm looking at you, Oberyn Martell, cocky little worm. I lost twelve stags on that damned fight.
Also, I've now subscribed to your channel, Tim, so look forward to me drunkenly lecturing YOU now on what ACTUALLY happens in A Song of Ice and Fire going forward.
A huge thanks to the both of you. A long form eddard discussion. My absolute favorite character in ASOIAF. Great work to the both of you. Thanks for taking the time!
Glad I came across this vid 😊 Ned is easily one of my favorite if not absolute favorite characters. The way he wears his Stark traits on his sleeve as this serious, honorable, and stoic man is incredible. Those are all traits I imagine in myself.
On the subject of young Theon at Winterfell - "treats him as a weird cousin or something." - Hahaha! Love your channel.
I wonder what whispers Varys would have been putting in Rheagars ears at the time. Im sure we will never know, but they say he fueled Aerys.
There's been speculation that Varys poisoned Aerys against Rhaegar in the first place.
Fabulous as always gentlemen! Thanks for making Sunday nights a great start to the week! 💛
Ned would definitely have been a better king than Robert, Stannis, Renly, Tywin or anyone else. If Ned had become king Jaime would've been sent to the Wall for killing Aerys. And The Mountain and Amory Lorch would've been sliced by Ice for murdering Elia and her children. And Tywin would've stood for all of it because his only other option would've been to go to war against the four armies that just mopped up the Targaryen Dynasty. Tywin would've gone back to Casterly Rock dreaming of vengeance he'd likely never be able to take. Having earned the ire of the Dornish and all other Targaryen loyalist left in Westeros Tywin would have no allies and no moves to make against King Ned. Having brought Elia's murders to justice Ned would've earned the loyalty or at least respect of house Martel. He probably would've dismissed Pycele for the part he played in the sack of Kingslanding. And probably Varys too for just being too shady. Ned never would've allowed Little Finger on the small council. Also he likely would've taken Tyrion, Willas Tyrell, and Arianne or Quentyn Martell as wards to assure the loyalty of their houses. And would have treated them well which could've further fostered good relations with the lordlings and some of their sires houses. Tywin like Balon Greyjoy could never be trusted of course, but I could see Mace and Doran coming around if their children were treated well. Most importantly Ned would rule the seven kingdoms as he ruled the North. Offering a fair hearing and swift justice to all his subjects. In Winterfell Ned feasted with one of his bannermen every fortnight. And on many other nights he feasted with his lower born subjects. This custom allowed Ned to maintain strong relationships with all his subjects, gain the measure of their character & abilities and continually remind them that he appreciated their service. I can think of no reason he wouldn't have done the same with all the lords significant vassels of Westeros had he sat the Iron Throne.
I think Tywin and Ned are very good comparisons of each other. Both of them are surrounded by an aura of respect and fear. And even in the areas they deviate they still compliment each other extensively, Tywin rules by fear and earns his respect and reputation through it, Ned on the other hand uses his respect for others and reputation to rule and that within itself garners fear from those who lack the clear fortitude Ned had. Ned’s honor and clear lack of willingness to play games was on par with Tywin but I would say even surpasses it because he also had the ability to see the other side and have respect for those who brought forth information to him. Where as Tywin shows that even if he wants to hear the bad news, he almost lashes out at those around him instead of taking a more humbled approach.
Ned never told Cat about Jon because the more he got to know her, the more he saw how fiercely she loved and protected her children. If she knew Jon was Rhaegar's son and was ever in a position where she could save her kids by giving up Jon, she would (but she would have no reason to consider this if he was just Ned's bastard). Similar to how she went rogue and gave up Jaime to save Sansa & Arya, which could be considered treason.
Aw nice, a tribute to how everybody is afraid of Ned, I remember pointing this out to people many years back
Great stream! Thanks guys. Love me some Ned, the ultimate BA.
I'd love to see maybe a short(or long) video/stream on Robb's will sometime.
You are the Goat my man you and the different people you put on stream are amazing man!
43:30 I be watching these streams an 1 hours and a half at a time. Happy to contribute to the long watch times. Keep up the great work! 👏👏👏👏
YES! There is so much mystery about Danny’s birth
I think I might have an idea about the ironborn theory video. Problably something along the line of them being descendants of people arround Ashai. People related to the Bloodstone Emperor. People who made at least one very big ship made of Essos weirwood. Some very big ship, wich remais of weirwood petrified and eventually got mistaken for being Nagga's ribs. Wich means that Euron might be a direct descendant of the Bloodstone emperor, just as he is problably trying to do the exact same thing his ancestor did. And then, at last, the circle will be complete. Very awesomely.
I think you're close to the mark there Eric!
Sad I missed the live but looking forward to listening on the rewatch
Great stream! What do you think about the burning of Shireen causing outbreak of grey plague? I was thinking it kinda might make sense for burning to reactivate it by putting it into a vapor (like a fog). Garin’s curse was effective against Valyrians, maybe burning exacerbates it. I think Val’s concerns are foreshadowing this.
oh interesting comp to Garins fog yeah. I could see it
Love your longer streams and videos. I even put some on that I’ve already watched so I can fall asleep to them.
“That was a full bull……praise Garth” lol
But I don’t think Ned would have killed Theon I think he would have just kept him safe and placed him on the sea stone chair.
Ohhh excited to hear the iron born vid is so close! Know it's going to be well worth the wait. Great job on another awesome live stream!
I think that while the original intent was obviously to have Theon as a hostage who could be killed, I think by the time the books begin, if Balon were to rebel while Ned was still alive, Theon would be forced to join the Night's Watch. It accomplishes the same political aim. Balon is denied his heir.
And while obviously Balon by that point couldn't care less about Theon being his heir, given how much Theon expected to remain heir, I'd wager a lot of that came from Ned not understanding Ironborn culture all that well. Theon was never as valuable a hostage as Ned thought. Even when Robb let Theon go back to the Iron Islands, it was very clear Balon had been preparing to declare himself king again well before he knew Theon was no longer a hostage. He'd been assembling his entire fleet and all his lords. So Ned clearly never really grasped that, which means had Robert died but Ned had lived, Ned would have likely received word of Ironborn raids despite Theon still being in Winterfell's custody. He'd immediately realise Balon had already given up Theon for dead and wouldn't be dissuaded by Theon being used as a bargaining chip. So Ned would see little reason to kill Theon, but would need to back up his threat in some form.
So there may be some alternate timeline where Theon ends up at the Wall shortly after Jon well before he even considers betraying the Starks. Oddly I reckon Jon and Theon would be a lot closer in this timeline. I reckon Theon would hate being around Jon again at first, since Jon was there by choice and Theon would have been dragged to Castle Black by armed soldiers, but I reckon the battle for the Wall against the wildlings would have brought them back together as brothers. And come to think of it, had Stannis met Theon at the Wall instead, with Theon in full possession of all required marbles and appendages, I reckon that while Jon refused Stannis making him Lord of Winterfell, Theon would jump at the chance of being freed from the Night's Watch by Stannis and declared Lord of the Iron Islands. I reckon Theon would have fought alongside Stannis to the end in the hopes of one day getting his inheritance.
Always a good time hangin w LML an GWT ❤ thanks for the edutainment 😺
On Dothraki. Jorah's the one who talks them up but, like, twice in aGoT Dothraki start something with him. Once with multiple people. Once against one of the best fighters in Drogo's Khal. Jorah's over the hill and a long way from the best fighter in the North and he leaves all of them in the dirt. Which works pretty well as a metaphor for how it'd go.
One on one, sure, but as far as cavalry warfare, I wonder.
@@VerbenaComfreyfull armored knights calvary charge against araks and bows? I put all my chips on westeros lords in this one excluding dragons of course.
@TzippiLongstocking The Dothraki don't do any of the things which made stepe nomads effective is the thing. They don't herd animals other than horses. So they don't have the logistics advantages which made them work. They don't, according to Jorah, display the disciplined tactical mobility which allows cavalry to beat heavy infantry (which is borne out to an extent in the fighting pits we see) and of course they completely lack both armour and lances. Pick a steppe nomad cavalry civilization. They had really good heavily armoured shock cavalry. And this is the book Dothraki. The show Dothraki are worse.
@@leoneil316
They're more like the magyars plundering their way through a central europe prior to the battle of the Lechfeld than the Mongol horde.
@@VerbenaComfrey Every time the Dothraki have fought a capable foe where the soldiers were armored, they've had their asses handed to them. The times they win it's because of numbers. Any army in Westeros shreds them quickly if the Dothraki are stupid enough to fight that way, which all of them are.
This is an awesome subject. I missed the original and am glad it came up on my feed.
Loved it! Could listen to Ned commentary for hours ❤
People say it was Ned's honour that killed him but, in truth it was when he put love ahead of honour and duty. First by warning Cersei for her childrens sake, again by not telling Robert the truth before he died for love of Robert, and finally by allowing him to be dragged in front of King's Landing and recount his claims for love of his children.
Love is the death of duty, and it was the death of Ned Stark.
Really cool perspective on Ned as usual. I think your character analyses are underrated in comparison to your work on symbolism. But I do think that the symbolism and character go hand in hand, the symbolism being a parallel to the values of the characters in the story.
My take on Ned is that he is a reactive person as opposed to being a proactive person. He doesn't have a vision for how things should be, but he does work from what his values are. So when life throws a curveball at him he consults his values and reacts to situations and circumstances. He plays it safe. In contrast to Ned. I think Jon is a visionary. He takes risks, he strikes deals with wildlings, with the iron bank, etc. When Ned knows that trouble is coming he doesn't try to find allies, he doesn't involve Stannis fast enough. Finally he has no other person to trust except Littlefinger of all people. It makes him quite predictable to his enemies too, since he is not trying new things. He also doesn't act fast enough. He doesn't like leaving his comfort zone, literally (Winterfell).
These videos are all so dang entertaining, I LOVE this content. Great work, guys.
Thank you for the wonderful stream! If you enjoyed this, make sure you leave a comment to help David and Tim!
You can't judge a father of a world like this the same way you would judge a modern father. The world he was raising children in is a place you have to prepare them for.
Today's world isn't?
@tanakeilidh384 make the correct alliance, or you die? Badmouth the king or the lord and might burn alive with your familie. The stakes are much higher that's on the advantages of fantasy worlds we can create them as we please.
Hello lml just wanted to thank you for the fascinating content you offer us, greetings from 🇲🇽🇲🇽!!
Given that there’s the pact of *ice* and fire, the discussion at 1:54:02 is interesting. Since the Starks owe the Targaryens a marriage, I wonder what would have happened if Rhaegar had spoken to Richard *first*?
After all, a Stormlord’s a good match… but I suspect a Dragonlord with a mystical 200 year old IOU takes prescedence.
I'd really like to learn when and why Benjen joined the watch. He could have helped keep Ned more in touch with what was going on in the south if he'd stayed within the family.
The Dothraki would have to actually get to westeros in the first place, and considering that the Westerosi seem to have considerable naval forces I'd say that's might be quite difficult for them. They'd also be pretty easy to defeat in skirmishes with armoured Westerosi archers, crossbowmen and knights to support. Without support from rebellious lords they wouldn't realistically have much chance. Unless somehow Dany hatches a few dragon eggs, but that would never happen.....
This is one of my favorite lore sessions by you and Tim. Am rewatching and feeding the algorithm. 💫
Awesome stream! Really Good. Thanks David & Tim. HBO should've hired David & Tim instead of Dan & Dave.
I think that Ned may have lost short term because he allways will do the rigth thing in line with his sense of morality, but i think he will win long term. Neds unwillingness to compremise will save the world
basically that's how I see it, and that's why I made the joke about the Starks and Northmen all wearing What Would Ned Do bracelets
You know, a cool what if would have been if at the end of the war, Ned and Robert either by choice of them or through a great council, had decided to divide Westeros in 2 and Robert got the South while Ned the North. Either that or that Westeros returned to the divided Westeros pre-Ageon the Conqueror times where each great house ruled their own piece of Westeros. That would have been cool and interesting too.
Thanks for the stream. Fun to analyze Ned, a great character.
Yet another awesome stream my good Sers! Thank you ❤
I think people forget one thing when we talk about Cats attitude towards Jon. She is not resentful towards Jon because Ned was unfaithful. It was because Ned treated Jon as equal to her children. Cat is afraid that it would cause a succession despute. Its pure medieval politics
I totally agree way too much is made of this
@@DavidLightbringer Second sons and cousins usurp far more often than bastards. Keeping Jon close is actually the most viable strategy to prevent the very thing Cat fears barring the Wall or death.
That said, I'm with both of you in this. Cat was not, by the standards of Westeros, in the wrong for treating/thinking of Jon as she did.
Huzzah, a Ned video! 😀
Finally someone gives Ned the respect he deserves and doesnt just label him as an ignorant fool as many in the fandom do!
You will probably be annoyed since i have already mentioned it before and i know you dont agree but bear with me.
I m on team Dany becoming much darker and defenely embracing fire and blood for her own ambitions.The show showed her being hated in Westeros and shown as a bad figure which i think it will also happen in the books.
I think that will parrarel Azor Ahai perfectly.A legendary figure who is praised in the East as a hero known by diffrent names similar to how Dany will be immortalized as the savior of slaves, mysha ,breaker of chains and countless other names but both of them will be despised in westeros and seen as bad.(Just a thought i know you dont agree i just wanted to share my opinion).
I do have a random question for you though.i dont know if you have answered it before but have you explained why would a murder of a woman(nissa nissa-amethyst)cause the long night?I mean im sure we have seen countless killings raoes tortures etc,why would that specific murder cause the long night why was it such a vile act compared to other murders?
Amazing livestream as always you are one of the best asoiaf creators !
no I do agree many in westeros will resist her and see her as a mad queen. George is gonna play with that space for sure
Why Ned didn't told Kat that Jon is Lyanas son, simple if Kat knows who are Jon parents , she will develop maternal feelings for him and she will greet him much more different.
'promise me Ned.'
Cat was after the war, at that point a stranger to Ned. So yes, he lied to her, and kept the lie going.
Ned and Cat's relationship is like Don Vito and his son-in-law Carlo in The Godfather
He gave her stuff to do but he never involved her in the family business
I maintain that Ned is low-key, one of the best warriors in Westeros. Maybe not top 10, but he definitely deserves an honorable mention.
1:47. Thanks for GC shoutout during the live and decided to jam out to them. Thanks for sharing artists some of your audience wasn’t aware of. Late for the stream because I praised Garth and listened to a 2hr live Darkstar my friend sent me.
Great stream as always!
Most Knowledgeable Maester, the David Lightbringer story-love all your works!
Very well made, love the content
There’s a moment in Drogo’s khalasar, after Drogo resolves to invade Westeros, that I just caught on my umpteenth reread:
IIRC Dany’s distracted and Jorah’s yapping at her in the background about a disagreement in which he holds STRONG opinions on where they should sell their slaves to fund ships.
Less than, what? A year later? Dany starts her conquest of Slaver’s Bay and he continually devalues the lives of the nonfighting members, especially the Freedmen, of Dany’s collective.
Jorah is still a slaver. It just suits him to pretend he isn’t where Dany can see.
We’ll see if his stance has changed after Dance…
you got that 100% right
this is a good example of subtle writing
Re: Ned learning the wrong lessons from what happened to his father/brother… AH!! Of course! After the JonCon war mention earlier in the stream, I have to wonder just how many of the absolutely critical errors stem from people doing exactly that. 😭
Ned should have brought a lot more swords with him to the south. Atleast 300, and maybe a few fierce northern bannermen or their heirs
Just rewatched this, I noticed that David said that Night's Watch is not so similar to crows in symbolism because crows (among other things) symbolize messengers and the Night's Watch does not represent that. However, I would not agree completely since they are the first to see the Others when they come back, so they will need to spread the message. Also, that's exactly what Gared does in the first book before he's executed by Ned.
good points!
This was a great steam. REally enjoyed seeing Ned from a different perspective.
Great stream... as always!
I have been patiently waiting for the Tywin roast since thanksgiving. 😍
I disagree with Ned being able to trust Cat with Jon's secret. As soon as she got the letter from Lysa regarding Jon Arryn's death, she literally tells everyone. She tells everyone everything. She kinda never shuts up, till she's dead.
Can't wait for the Iron born video!
These streams are so relaxing. I can listen for hours.
Awesome stream as usual! Gonna rewatch at work Tuesday where I can re absorb the information. When are the Iron Born vids coming out? Really looking forward to them!
Amazing! Tim is always that EXTRA too 🔥
Ned's biggest problem was thinking that if he revealed the truth, it was fair to give someone the option to do the honorable thing and right their wrongs or repent. He kinda is nieve to other peoples mindset. He's so black and white and has spent so much time in the bubble in the code of the people of the north that he can't think outside the box. Or walk in someone elses shoes. Whatever metaphor works best.
He's a good man and practical, and most people aren't practical or moral code, so idealistic.