Awesome show! Thank you for being able to sit back and enjoy Nettles and Seans amazing read with us, not many host would be able to allow their guest to shine. They nailed it, it was almost like listening to a soundtrack of a stage production. Seans first appearance was a success. ❤
The way they described how it's a family (Lannister) trait. They all detatch themselves in a way where they're all above everyone else. They're mocked over jealousy. Which is interesting. Because Narcissism especially in wealthy well connected families is often found in the group of the family. Broken down specifically in households. One household can be raging narcs. But, for instance the cousins of the same family in a different household can be very humble. I like how they drew that out.
Kevan had a very pragmatic reason for allowing Cersei's walk of shame. Once he accepted the position of regent Kevan believed he had to break Cersei's powerbase in Kingslanding. This is more or less confirmed in the ADWD epilogue. Kevan sent all the Lannister guards with loyalties to Cersei away from King's landing once he took the position as regent. And he knew that she would lose the respect of the common people after her walk of shame. I don't believe Kevan took any pleasure in Cersei's humiliation, but he believed it was necessary. Kevan told Cersei that she was unfit to rule when she asked him to be her hand. And after he left King's landing Cersei proved him absolutely right. Once he took power Kevan wanted to ensure that Cersei would have no ability to undermine him. Which is why he originally proposed that Cersei should retire to Casterly Rock rock, and leave the regency to him.
The only thing I think you missed about Jamie is that he was young, the others knew what it meant to be a kings guard but Jamie was still in a naive youth much like Jon going to the wall and Tyrion being the only one to speak truth to him, because Jon probably reminded him of Jaimie and didn’t want him to grow bitter because they put him up for something without being real about it. And here I must say ned failed big time, but I know he thought he was protecting Jon by him going to the wall and take the black. But yeah Jon is the Jamie if his eyes had been opened before he accepted the path he went on. And one took the black and one took the white , it’s just great parallels by GRRM.
Honestly, of all the Lannisters I quite like Genna. She has the sensability of Kevan or Tywin, the courage of Jaime and the stubbornness of Cersei. I wonder if she orchestrated the Red Wedding seeing as she's actually a Frey.
Weirdly enough, I feel like another angle for Jaime's shame is his sword fighting prowess. He's referred to by several characters as the best swordsman and he certainly ranks himself highly, but I recall several moments where he also thinks back to others like Dayne and Selmy. Almost like he's embarrassed to think of himself as great compared to them -- he's just the only one who's left standing
@2:43:00 The only issue I see with Tywin using Bron to send Shae to Tyrion is that he also seemingly sent Tyrion to his death by placing in the Van the next day. Perhaps Tywin really didn't think Tyrion was in danger? It is also interesting that we get Tyrion telling his father that he thinks Tywin was trying to get him killed, when Tyrion makes so many misjudgments later on in King's Landing. We also have Tywin repeatedly telling Tyrion not to bring 'the whore' to court. Perhaps Tywin knows Tyrion will defy him and bring his spy with him?
I totally agree that Tywin would never let Cersei do the walk of shame. It is interesting that Kevan normally tries to be like Tywin, (or at least back him totally) but when he dies, Kevan does things so differently from how Tywin would.
Cersei is also the key member of House Lannister's tie to the crown. Myrcella and Tommin may (falsely) be the heirs to the crown, but if Cersei, who has married into the Crown, can be undermined, then it opens the door for any strong polical House to use the kids as pawns (like House Tyrell or Martel) House Baratheon is supposedly in charge, but we all know, as readers, that House Lannister has been in charge since Roberts death.
@swayback7375 he did none of that. He stayed completely silent on the matter and completely out of the action until after it was clear that the targs were losing
Kevan doesn't have the cunning or strategy of Tywin. Kevan is a second son, which is part of the reason he has always let Tywin lead. Kevan has a lot of the same motivation but none of the secrets Tywin has also. Kevan looks down on sex workers and the like but unlike Tywin doesn't use their services.
@@dandeleon2764Kevan doesn't care by the time Cersei's walk of shame happens, if he's not actually somewhat satisfied by it. He's pissed about Lancel and turned down being Hand because he thinks Cersei is a trainwreck who not only won't heed his advice but may actually plot against him if she's feeling angry. He's smart enough to know he's not Tywin. He can't control Cersei or plot like Tywin. I also think Kevan thinks the Faith Militant isn't worth fighting, especially since his son is now effectively their hostage. Cersei broke the Lannisters main rules: 1)Take care of family (she screwed over Lancel, Jaime, Tyrion and her kids) 2)Do whatever you want but don't embarrass the Lannisters (she's constantly drunk and foolish AND got caught in incest and schemes) 3)Never give up Lannister power (she armed the Faith Militant, gave away a fleet, and simultaneously alienated the Tyrell alliance and made Margery the beloved Queen ) Kevan and any remaining Lannisters are going to react badly to this
On the topic of the Lanisters being Machisvellian, they are kind of a good demostration why the misquoted version of it doesn't work. The actual quote goes: "And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved." But also: "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women." The Lanisters are firmly in the hated cathegory, despite what Tywin said abouth helping back up thoes who bend the knee. A big reason why they are hated is exactly Tywin's "oops war crime" approach to warfare.
I had quite the revelation with you guys chatting about Jaime only being attracted to powerful women. I had never even realized that before with all my own Lannister psycho analysis. It definitely ties him to another powerful, naughty swordsman: Daemon the Rogue Prince. I'm seeing all the similarities now.
I think GirlNettles is right to be a little obsessed with Lann the Clever, in-fact I would argue that Lann the Clever and Azor Ahai are one and the same and that furthermore, both these individuals and Brandon Of The Bloody Blade are also one and the same. As to why I believe this, it's like how in Dune the Atreides and Harkonnens are joined by blood without knowing because Jessica is unknowingly the Baron Vladimir's daughter. I also think it might be a play on The Accursed Kings historical fiction series which was a key inspiration for the series, the idea that the Starks and the Lannisters are both cursed bloodlines because of the crimes of their mutual Ur-ancestor. With regards to what you said about Cersei resenting Jaime because she can't claim Casterly Rock despite being the eldest because she's not a man I see it also as an inverse of the Amethyst Empress/Bloodstone Emperor situation where you have a younger son who resents not getting to inherit because the GEOTD does it like Dorne where eldest inherits regardless of gender. It's also a continuation of the unjust nature of how women are treated in this world which I think largely has it's roots in this original sin, this crime Azor Ahai committed.
Excellent stream folks. You all killed it, but especially Sean: those voices were so on-point it was scary! I think that Jaime, like all children is looking for echoes of his parental role models in a partner. Since his mother wasn't there for him, he looks for female versions of his father. Cersei is the female version of the father he had (in his eyes), while Brienne is the female version of who he wanted his father to be while he was still an idealistic child. If Tywin did plant Shae on Tyrion then that makes his injunction to Tyrion, "You will NOT take that whore to court!", a particularly devious bit of reverse psychology. It implies that he expected Tyrion to defy him, and thereby give him an agent inside the Red Keep and The Tower Of The Hand while he's off fighting the war. Of course he can't keep in touch with her well at that time, but at least he'll get the inside goz on all Tyrion's plans when he gets back. It also explains Shae's curiously fierce "devotion", refusal of "go away" money and insistence that she's not afraid of Tywin. Of course she isn't: she knows she'll be safest and get the most money if she stays with Tyrion until ordered to rat him out. As an aside, I don't think Tywin's disapproval of Tyrion's whoring despite using whores himself is neccessarily as hypocritical as people think. Tywin doesn't have some moral objection to Tyrion using whores per se, what he disapproves of is his habit of falling in love with them, revealing too much to them and making himself (and by extension the Lannisters) vulnerable. The Tysha episode is not him teaching Tyrion "don't use whores", it's him telling Tyrion, "keep whores in their place because you can't trust them".
I think it's a cool contrast between Dany and Cersei that Dany understands the need to don the trappings of power -- her floppy ears. It took humiliation for Cersei to see that the queen everyone saw -- and a good portion of the beauty, too -- came from the gowns and jewels. Cersei just thought she was inherently better than everyone else. When she understood how much that relied on gowns and jewels, she cling to those all the more. Whereas Dany, whom some may declare to be the most beautiful woman in the world, does understand that she cannot sell her crown, that she must wear the toqar, that she must dress as a Dothraki and speak their language when with them. Dany also understands that a true ruler, queen, is a servant to the people. So although she understands the importance of the trappings of power and dressing for the role that she is playing, there is dignity and regality that belongs to her and not to gowns and jewels.
One aspect I thought of just now is this: The Starks as a House is, when the story begins, at a place where there has been quite along time where they have their authority secured and respected within their own domain. For the Lannisters we have Turin growing up at a point in time where the Lannister House is severely risking on continue on a rough downward thread. There is basically rebellion within their own domain and among of their vassals. To quell this always need some sort of ruthness when the smell of blood is too much in the waters, so to speak. And it’s the background of this that Tywin rules and plans. It’s a lived experience that brute force and authoritarian ways where the ways needed. Or at least, that was had a noticeable effect. The Starks have been forced or chosen to be ruthless to claim and uphold the authority of their domain and their vassals. But the brunt of that is longer back in history. No one living at the time of the start of the story as any own memory of strife within the Stark domain, no one actively moving to from within the North to sidestep or de-throne the Starks. So the Starks are in a historic period of governing a stable area and doing a good job of if. At least for two generations there hasn’t really been any questioning of their leadership. For the Lannisters it’s still less than 1 full generation since the latest internal challenge and they challenge arouse because of indifference and not taking interest and being meek. This is how Tywin’s father and his leadership is displayed as. So Tywin filled in the blanks of what was missing and when it was consolidated comes the events that l as to and started Robert’s Rebellion. And that time period entailed a lot of cut throat chaos and uncertainty. And in uncertainty behaviors become even more authoritarian especially if there isn’t a solid secure base and habit to begin with. So, interestingly we kind of inflate the Starks’ overall “goodness” because we see Ned’s leadership and impact and, understandably, don’t take into account the ruthlessness that likely occurred in earlier generations. And with Lannisters it is all a lot more fresh.
I guess it depends on whether you're speaking of judging a person or an entire house. judging an entire house is a little bit of a squishy endeavor, because you're lumping a lot of people together who are not similar.
It truly does. That was a turning point not only for his character but for the reader as well. The bland way he tells Catelyn about Rickard and Brandon's deaths is just utterly shocking to her. And she can't question any of it because of the way he tells the story.
The voice acting this stream! First-timer Sean holding his own to bring it with Nettles, dayum. Your guests are always ballin’, 10/10 keep pickin’ ‘em like this, LmL! Hmm, at 1:47:00-ish thru a few min, I think Nettles and Lml are both right. Jaime’s Lannister upbringing might be what a psych student might call a “protective factor” against the complacency of Kingsguard like Hightower at that point in his life-alongside his literal youth, sense of good/'decency', prowess, etc. For all the hypocrisy of clearly having commonality with Brandon on one level, on another level Jaime’s absolutely right that “There are no men like me.” Him being exactly who he was in all his jumbled, lost, cynical, despairing, Lannister-raised, kid brother glory on that day enabled him to kill Aerys II. Once -there might have been- young men like him but then he was the only one there and doing it, and now -there are no- men like him. Will definitely be back after dinner to finish the rewatch, smh it took me X days to start in.
I love Grey Waste Tim, and of course the Beautiful Girl Nettles, but when youre doing readings, Sean is the man! His voices are professional- level. Btw, youre not so bad yourself, David! I've been binging your theories again!
I think the turning point for Cat was realizing Jamie and Tyson had the same sorry about both and the dagger and her maidenhead and she realized Littlefinger was not who she thought he was and a liar.
there is a channel that does deep dives on psychology of characters in asoiaf called my little thought tree. very interesting stuff for the psych nerds out there
Kevan had a good number of reasons not to stick up for Cercei and prevent the walk of shame. One was, she raped his son who is also her main accuser. Two, last time the church of the seven had an army it took dragons to subdue them, and Kevan's fresh out of dragons. Three, he wanted her out of the way as she was an incompetent drunk, throwing away alliances and power left and right. Four, he believes she is guilty. Five, he saw it as Tywin's wish that Cercei was in the Westerlands and not the regent. I do want to come back to the whole raping his son thing. The abuse Lancel suffered at her hands (and Robert's and Tyrion's) was quite severe, with a brush with death to top it off. She manipulates Lancel into regicide, then into incestuous sex, then hurts a fresh battle wound he has and never shows the slightest hint of remorse even in her pov chapters. Lancel experiences guilt, powerlessness, physical injury, near death and eventually joins a cultish band of fanatical religious people to deal with his feelings. He might eventually be executed for regicide, though maybe he gets to atone through joining a religious order or something. Kevan knows most if not all of this by the time the walk happens. Cercei should count herself lucky that Kevan even opens the gates to the reed keep at all.
Did Jaime imply Catelyn wasn't a maiden on her wedding day? He says, "Perhaps Ned wanted to spare his young bride, if not quite a maiden." Is that an implication against her virtue, or is it just acknowledging that by the time they'd have talked about it, the wedding night would have passed? I'm just wondering, because maybe it implicates Petyr as bragging to many people about deflowering Catelyn. Just reinforcing yet again that Littlefinger loves Littlefinger, even if he believes he loves Catelyn
Also, this is juxtaposed with her implicit trust in Petyr, earlier mentioned. If she had caught onto Jaime's implication here, her whole illusion of Petyr as trustworthy would have shattered
What I find fascinating about the Lannister family is the fact that is one of the few families in the story that don't have connection with magic of any kind. Even their ancestor Lan the Clever - presumably another son of Garth the Green - took Casterley Rock from the Casterleys using very "humanly" means- his witt - either by conning them or marrying into the family. Maybe because of that , the lack of magic in their family, they are atheists and do not believe in thinks that are different and not part of this world . And I believe because of that , the lack of believing in something greater than yourself, they became so vain and so skilled in using all the forms of "human" powers - because they believe in nothing but themselves. "There is no one like me ...just me" - very existentialist but very human - the most human 😊
This quote always gives me chills. It not only makes you understand Jaime's constant arrogance but also how disillusioned he is with the entirety of the KG in general.
“Snow… such a white (wight) name. Like the pretty cloaks they gave us in the kings guard….” Another of George’s more obvious parallels of the kings guard as tools of the king to the wights being used as tools of the Others, in addition to the Starks being compared to wights as you mentioned.
“The others were lords’ sons too.” I like to think the others are ice shadow babies of nights king who was lord of winterfell. Or at least he’s lord of the nights watch maybe. But this definitely points to icy Melisandre nights queen giving birth to them
9:42 Tywin's armor to me reads as a very symbolically loaded "solar feline king" and the idea of sun coded person not as a cherry life bringing individual but like, the sun that burns and peels your skin as it presses you into the earth with oppressive heat. Like, Tywin cares about the opinions of sheep- because he wants that opinion to be that he and his ilk are not merely kings among men, but gods among kings and lions among wolves. Eta: 34:42 i feel like tywin would have worked out something similar to Tyrion going to the wall. Cersei having to serve a certain amount of time in penance at the silent sisters or even banishment/ exile. That would remove her from power and sight, ehile also maintaining dignity and "were special so even out punishments are special" air to house Lannister.
Furthermore, 46:06 I think what George is trying to point out is how the punishment of women is always a public event for the purpose of social conditioning/ catharsis. Men who cheat, who keep mistresses and give them the clothes and jewels of their dead wife aren't stripped naked and paraded through the streets. Robert was 10 times the philandering whore Cersei was but the idea of parading him through the streets naked is incomprehensible. And if this was about incest, when is Jaimie getting his walk of shame? George is always highlighting how sexual violence is used to keep women in line and seen as a inhuman objects. How many societies, including our own in modern day, see women. If we are not sacred objects passed from father to husband, if we dare to seek agency - *especially* over sex? Well if we aren't for one man chosen for us we may as well be "free use." And for that? As much as I hate Cersei, the walk of shame never made me feel sorry for her so much as it made me really proud of her. I think she deserves some kind of punishment for a lot of what she's done- but let's be honest, the punishment isn't actually about anything deserving that punishment. This wasn't about her killing Robert, or incest. This is about adultery. Which is bad yes- but even in universe the proper punishment is 6 whacks with a stick and that's it. No no, this punishment is about a woman breaking the contract between 2 men that made her a sex slave in return for her dad's political clout. (Yes, all arranged marriages in this society are a form of sex slavery, fight me) So you know what? Good on her for tuning out as much as possible. She deserves a lot, but not to be punished for sleeping with someone other than that crowned Pig.
47:41 I'm gonna be having a whole ass convo with myself but here I go again! I also think the whole ability to disassociate from traumatic situations and "do the hard thing" is evidence to my tinfoil theory that there's a dark secret in Casterly rock called "intergenerational abuse" Like- if you were in the real word and 2 pre pubescent children were having sex with each other what would that be an indication of? And what would you call it when their mother hides their behavior rather than fixing it? Can you imagine what Tywin would have done to them? If an adult man found his 13 year old son with a girl and "punished" that son by forcing him to watch and participate in the girls sexual abuse who would be the abuser? And as for her narcissism and her inability to process guilt- when you are simultaneously told you are above everyone else by default, and punishment are few but extremely traumatic? (if tyrions punishment is any measure- even hearing about that would be enough to traumatize her and keep her in line) it would make sense that she never learned to think about her misdoings and acknowledge, let alone process those feelings outside of a trauma inducing punishment. The cleganes are known to be abusive and have a trail of dead women and girls in their wake... And are also some of the most trusted bannermen that Tywin has. Is it tinfoil? Yes, but this hill of tinfoil is one I'm gonna fight and stand on. Cersei is as fucked up as she is cause and Jamie (and Tyrion) are victims of sexual abuse.
Just want to say that honor doesn't have to come from belief. I'm a nihilist and don't believe in anything and I like to think that I behave honorably, even if I don't attach any feelings of "rightness" or whatever to that behavior. For me, it comes down to pragmatism; we live in a world with other people and generally that goes smoother when you treat others fairly and help them when you can
hey thanks for the comment I appreciate the perspective. I guess I'm reading what you're saying here and still wondering if what you're talking about qualifies as honor. It certainly pragmatism, but would you say that you have a morality that comes from your pragmatism? interesting questions
@@DavidLightbringer I guess it depends on how you want to define honor. Personally, when I see or hear the word honor, I think of a very specific list of qualities: honesty, fairness, and respect. Those things aren't dependent on you believing in a certain morality, only behaving in certain ways in response to certain things. If you wanted to define honor more broadly as something like "being good" then yeah, that would definitionally require you to believe in some moral system, which I do not. I can definitely see the need to look at someone's reasoning and intent when trying to judge harmful actions. Someone trying to cause harm is a way different circumstance than someone accidentally causing harm. But at the end of the day, they still caused harm. In a similar vein, someone treating others with respect, being fair, and being honest, is still having the same positive effect on the world around them regardless of why they did those things. I don't particularly see what is gained by making a distinction based on reasoning in this instance, provided that it's a pattern of behavior and not a one time thing. I guess you could combine the two ideas and say there's a difference between behaving honorably (acting with respect, fairness and honesty) and being honorable (being "good" because you believe it's the right thing to do). I just don't particularly see the need to care about the latter. A person's reasons don't effect me, only their actions, and when it comes to someone treating me in a neutral or positive manner, I never think about why they chose to behave that way.
I think it's interesting that bran didn't make the cut to circes list of guilt ghosts. I know Jaime was the one that pushed him, but the fact that she didn't even consider him shows to me she believes that's entirely Jamie's sin.
I think a lot of Cersei's bad decisions are more the result of a lack of emotional intelligence rather than a lack of political or strategic intelligence which she seems to have a decent amount of. Her worst mistakes are all about trusting or mistrusting the wrong people.
I just had a horrible vision in my head. Rather than just murder the Mad King, Jaime should have tied his frail king to the iron throne. I imagine George would love the idea of someone using the Iron Throne as a method of torture eventually leading to murder. Kind of a microcosm of the story ya know
@@girlnettles big fan of yours so I’m flattered. This got me thinking that maybe George could adapt this idea when Dany arrives to Kings Landing to find Circe clinging to the chair. A different mad ruler, but would make for awful imagery from either perspective.
@@dirtysheepdog I’ve thought about the throne becoming a weapon again ever since I read about Maegor’e manner of death. If this happened to Cersei I might drown the earth in female excitement juice. 💦
I thought no voice but Charles Dance would ever be Tywin Lannister to me, but that additional rumble is perfect!
Please have Sean back on again! Great reader, great contributor!
He can't stop me from coming back I'll show up in his living room.
@@herowithathousandvoices 😆👏
he sounds soooo much like nikolaj coster waldau it actually gave me chills
Nettles and Sean fed off each other SO WELL, CHEMISTRY WAS MUAHH
Tee hee hee 💕
Don't forget to restart the stream. It forces the algorithm gods to take notice and recommend it to new friends. 🥂✌️
Thanks for the reminder! I will
Ah yes, the algorithm gods must have their due!
I will leave a comment or two
I hate getting caught up in the prechat and don’t notice that I have to refresh to catch the stream. Like, what is everyone talking about?!
I’m not a simp. So no.
"Oops all war crimes" 😂😂😂😊
Oops I did it again! Tywin ( every time!)
Awesome show! Thank you for being able to sit back and enjoy Nettles and Seans amazing read with us, not many host would be able to allow their guest to shine. They nailed it, it was almost like listening to a soundtrack of a stage production. Seans first appearance was a success. ❤
That is such a hard chapter, and Nettles, you rocked both Cercei's pride and the horror of what was done to her
❤ thank you love
The way they described how it's a family (Lannister) trait. They all detatch themselves in a way where they're all above everyone else. They're mocked over jealousy.
Which is interesting. Because Narcissism especially in wealthy well connected families is often found in the group of the family. Broken down specifically in households. One household can be raging narcs. But, for instance the cousins of the same family in a different household can be very humble. I like how they drew that out.
Kevan had a very pragmatic reason for allowing Cersei's walk of shame. Once he accepted the position of regent Kevan believed he had to break Cersei's powerbase in Kingslanding. This is more or less confirmed in the ADWD epilogue. Kevan sent all the Lannister guards with loyalties to Cersei away from King's landing once he took the position as regent. And he knew that she would lose the respect of the common people after her walk of shame. I don't believe Kevan took any pleasure in Cersei's humiliation, but he believed it was necessary. Kevan told Cersei that she was unfit to rule when she asked him to be her hand. And after he left King's landing Cersei proved him absolutely right. Once he took power Kevan wanted to ensure that Cersei would have no ability to undermine him. Which is why he originally proposed that Cersei should retire to Casterly Rock rock, and leave the regency to him.
that's good analysis 🫡
And he got killed for doing his job way too well. Suffering from success.
Sean is fantastic I can’t wait for you to have him back on!
If David doesn't bring me back I'll show up in his living room!
hahah this has been discussed also
The only thing I think you missed about Jamie is that he was young, the others knew what it meant to be a kings guard but Jamie was still in a naive youth much like Jon going to the wall and Tyrion being the only one to speak truth to him, because Jon probably reminded him of Jaimie and didn’t want him to grow bitter because they put him up for something without being real about it. And here I must say ned failed big time, but I know he thought he was protecting Jon by him going to the wall and take the black. But yeah Jon is the Jamie if his eyes had been opened before he accepted the path he went on. And one took the black and one took the white , it’s just great parallels by GRRM.
Jaime didn't accept his path. It was forced on him. He's finally accepting his path 15 years later.
I like parallel you just put out there. Tyron realized he was looking at a young Jaime when he looked at Jon. I never thought of that before
Thanks Dave for bringing us so many great streams and guests. These panels are always delightful. You guys crushed it on every level today. 🥂
And you have a tasty and gorgeous brain and always make me laugh when I replay this and read what y’all were saying in the chat.
If the vibe is right I'll sing Mariah Carey on one of David's streams just for you.
@@herowithathousandvoices I would die from the pleasure of it!
@@girlnettles Lmao to make you laugh is a gift I do not waste. You and I will always be! 💅🏼💖
@@herowithathousandvoices don’t tease me, I might like it. 😉
Honestly, of all the Lannisters I quite like Genna. She has the sensability of Kevan or Tywin, the courage of Jaime and the stubbornness of Cersei.
I wonder if she orchestrated the Red Wedding seeing as she's actually a Frey.
Weirdly enough, I feel like another angle for Jaime's shame is his sword fighting prowess. He's referred to by several characters as the best swordsman and he certainly ranks himself highly, but I recall several moments where he also thinks back to others like Dayne and Selmy. Almost like he's embarrassed to think of himself as great compared to them -- he's just the only one who's left standing
If homie Sean isn't already a voice actor or audio book reader. He mfn SHOULD
@2:43:00 The only issue I see with Tywin using Bron to send Shae to Tyrion is that he also seemingly sent Tyrion to his death by placing in the Van the next day.
Perhaps Tywin really didn't think Tyrion was in danger? It is also interesting that we get Tyrion telling his father that he thinks Tywin was trying to get him killed, when Tyrion makes so many misjudgments later on in King's Landing.
We also have Tywin repeatedly telling Tyrion not to bring 'the whore' to court. Perhaps Tywin knows Tyrion will defy him and bring his spy with him?
The drip simply don't quit for Tywin
Dude literally drinking out a pump cup during battle
@@soxpeewee and likely not even enjoying it! He strikes me as I think nettles brought up as someone who has to “ dress up for the rubes”
I totally agree that Tywin would never let Cersei do the walk of shame. It is interesting that Kevan normally tries to be like Tywin, (or at least back him totally) but when he dies, Kevan does things so differently from how Tywin would.
Cersei is also the key member of House Lannister's tie to the crown. Myrcella and Tommin may (falsely) be the heirs to the crown, but if Cersei, who has married into the Crown, can be undermined, then it opens the door for any strong polical House to use the kids as pawns (like House Tyrell or Martel)
House Baratheon is supposedly in charge, but we all know, as readers, that House Lannister has been in charge since Roberts death.
@@dandeleon2764Tywin in planned, started and at least in part funded Robert’s rebellion
@swayback7375 he did none of that. He stayed completely silent on the matter and completely out of the action until after it was clear that the targs were losing
Kevan doesn't have the cunning or strategy of Tywin. Kevan is a second son, which is part of the reason he has always let Tywin lead.
Kevan has a lot of the same motivation but none of the secrets Tywin has also. Kevan looks down on sex workers and the like but unlike Tywin doesn't use their services.
@@dandeleon2764Kevan doesn't care by the time Cersei's walk of shame happens, if he's not actually somewhat satisfied by it.
He's pissed about Lancel and turned down being Hand because he thinks Cersei is a trainwreck who not only won't heed his advice but may actually plot against him if she's feeling angry.
He's smart enough to know he's not Tywin. He can't control Cersei or plot like Tywin.
I also think Kevan thinks the Faith Militant isn't worth fighting, especially since his son is now effectively their hostage.
Cersei broke the Lannisters main rules:
1)Take care of family (she screwed over Lancel, Jaime, Tyrion and her kids)
2)Do whatever you want but don't embarrass the Lannisters (she's constantly drunk and foolish AND got caught in incest and schemes)
3)Never give up Lannister power (she armed the Faith Militant, gave away a fleet, and simultaneously alienated the Tyrell alliance and made Margery the beloved Queen )
Kevan and any remaining Lannisters are going to react badly to this
On the topic of the Lanisters being Machisvellian, they are kind of a good demostration why the misquoted version of it doesn't work.
The actual quote goes: "And here comes in the question whether it is better to be loved rather than feared, or feared rather than loved. It might perhaps be answered that we should wish to be both; but since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved."
But also: "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women."
The Lanisters are firmly in the hated cathegory, despite what Tywin said abouth helping back up thoes who bend the knee. A big reason why they are hated is exactly Tywin's "oops war crime" approach to warfare.
I had quite the revelation with you guys chatting about Jaime only being attracted to powerful women. I had never even realized that before with all my own Lannister psycho analysis.
It definitely ties him to another powerful, naughty swordsman: Daemon the Rogue Prince. I'm seeing all the similarities now.
And a Princess Bride quote, too!
Nice team Lightbringer. Keep up the great work @girlnettles 🎉.
Shawn (sean?)’s voice acting was so good man. When you told him to talk louder i was like what?! No! Lol. I think he was excellent
I think GirlNettles is right to be a little obsessed with Lann the Clever, in-fact I would argue that Lann the Clever and Azor Ahai are one and the same and that furthermore, both these individuals and Brandon Of The Bloody Blade are also one and the same. As to why I believe this, it's like how in Dune the Atreides and Harkonnens are joined by blood without knowing because Jessica is unknowingly the Baron Vladimir's daughter. I also think it might be a play on The Accursed Kings historical fiction series which was a key inspiration for the series, the idea that the Starks and the Lannisters are both cursed bloodlines because of the crimes of their mutual Ur-ancestor.
With regards to what you said about Cersei resenting Jaime because she can't claim Casterly Rock despite being the eldest because she's not a man I see it also as an inverse of the Amethyst Empress/Bloodstone Emperor situation where you have a younger son who resents not getting to inherit because the GEOTD does it like Dorne where eldest inherits regardless of gender.
It's also a continuation of the unjust nature of how women are treated in this world which I think largely has it's roots in this original sin, this crime Azor Ahai committed.
I just wanted to thank you for streaming and then posting the footage as a video
And you made my day, love 💕
Thank you
i listened to a portion of this audio only, and omfg it literally sounds like Charles Dance is on this stream!😎
Great stream
Sean, amazing Tywin and Oberyn
GirlNettles, awesome Cersei and Bronn
LML, great Kevan
lol "great Kevan" is the most runner up thing ever hahahaha
I'm obviously not the only one super impressed by Sean's reading. So he will do the audio book for The Winds of Winter right?
I love nettles.
Love you too💋🐉
Excellent stream folks. You all killed it, but especially Sean: those voices were so on-point it was scary!
I think that Jaime, like all children is looking for echoes of his parental role models in a partner. Since his mother wasn't there for him, he looks for female versions of his father. Cersei is the female version of the father he had (in his eyes), while Brienne is the female version of who he wanted his father to be while he was still an idealistic child.
If Tywin did plant Shae on Tyrion then that makes his injunction to Tyrion, "You will NOT take that whore to court!", a particularly devious bit of reverse psychology. It implies that he expected Tyrion to defy him, and thereby give him an agent inside the Red Keep and The Tower Of The Hand while he's off fighting the war. Of course he can't keep in touch with her well at that time, but at least he'll get the inside goz on all Tyrion's plans when he gets back. It also explains Shae's curiously fierce "devotion", refusal of "go away" money and insistence that she's not afraid of Tywin. Of course she isn't: she knows she'll be safest and get the most money if she stays with Tyrion until ordered to rat him out.
As an aside, I don't think Tywin's disapproval of Tyrion's whoring despite using whores himself is neccessarily as hypocritical as people think. Tywin doesn't have some moral objection to Tyrion using whores per se, what he disapproves of is his habit of falling in love with them, revealing too much to them and making himself (and by extension the Lannisters) vulnerable. The Tysha episode is not him teaching Tyrion "don't use whores", it's him telling Tyrion, "keep whores in their place because you can't trust them".
Amazing stream, hopefully we get to see more of Sean.
Love it when you guys do reader's theatre!!! David- great job!!! You make the best crones!! Sean and Nettles very talented!!!
Nettles and Sean were fantastic! Great voice acting! 👏🏾
awesome as usual ty guys, extra points for all the voices
2:59:51 yes, Cersei and Brienne AND he specifically points out how he’s more interested in Catelyn over Lysa because she’s a stronger character
Sean’s voice work is genuinely incredible.
Another great voice actor joins the crew. Kudos to you, Sean and Dave and Nettles. Watching this video has been a light in a whole lotta darkness
That track suit is actually on point.
I think it's a cool contrast between Dany and Cersei that Dany understands the need to don the trappings of power -- her floppy ears. It took humiliation for Cersei to see that the queen everyone saw -- and a good portion of the beauty, too -- came from the gowns and jewels.
Cersei just thought she was inherently better than everyone else. When she understood how much that relied on gowns and jewels, she cling to those all the more.
Whereas Dany, whom some may declare to be the most beautiful woman in the world, does understand that she cannot sell her crown, that she must wear the toqar, that she must dress as a Dothraki and speak their language when with them. Dany also understands that a true ruler, queen, is a servant to the people. So although she understands the importance of the trappings of power and dressing for the role that she is playing, there is dignity and regality that belongs to her and not to gowns and jewels.
Great stream! You three should do more psycho analysis style content for ASOIAF
One aspect I thought of just now is this:
The Starks as a House is, when the story begins, at a place where there has been quite along time where they have their authority secured and respected within their own domain.
For the Lannisters we have Turin growing up at a point in time where the Lannister House is severely risking on continue on a rough downward thread. There is basically rebellion within their own domain and among of their vassals. To quell this always need some sort of ruthness when the smell of blood is too much in the waters, so to speak.
And it’s the background of this that Tywin rules and plans. It’s a lived experience that brute force and authoritarian ways where the ways needed. Or at least, that was had a noticeable effect.
The Starks have been forced or chosen to be ruthless to claim and uphold the authority of their domain and their vassals. But the brunt of that is longer back in history. No one living at the time of the start of the story as any own memory of strife within the Stark domain, no one actively moving to from within the North to sidestep or de-throne the Starks.
So the Starks are in a historic period of governing a stable area and doing a good job of if. At least for two generations there hasn’t really been any questioning of their leadership.
For the Lannisters it’s still less than 1 full generation since the latest internal challenge and they challenge arouse because of indifference and not taking interest and being meek. This is how Tywin’s father and his leadership is displayed as.
So Tywin filled in the blanks of what was missing and when it was consolidated comes the events that l as to and started Robert’s Rebellion. And that time period entailed a lot of cut throat chaos and uncertainty. And in uncertainty behaviors become even more authoritarian especially if there isn’t a solid secure base and habit to begin with.
So, interestingly we kind of inflate the Starks’ overall “goodness” because we see Ned’s leadership and impact and, understandably, don’t take into account the ruthlessness that likely occurred in earlier generations.
And with Lannisters it is all a lot more fresh.
I guess it depends on whether you're speaking of judging a person or an entire house. judging an entire house is a little bit of a squishy endeavor, because you're lumping a lot of people together who are not similar.
@@DavidLightbringerand even similar, they’re still not the same person!
These types of mass judgment is literally bigotry
Fantastic stream, friends.👏 This was great fun! Dave, his guests, and the chat were all on 🔥 tonight. Bravo, and thank you!❤
Bravos?! Where!? Squire, fetch my greatsword!
Out of all the Valyrian steel swords, which would you prefer to wield?
Sean is fucking awesome. You should have him on again
Anything to do with the Lannisters' is always delicious, what a treat. Also the voice acting was the icing on the cake. Thank you.
I wonder how many people the first time they read the books hated Jaime and then loved him on the second read through?
Listened to this one twice. Really enjoyed it !!!
Sean's tywin voice is second only to Charles dance in the flesh
It truly does. That was a turning point not only for his character but for the reader as well. The bland way he tells Catelyn about Rickard and Brandon's deaths is just utterly shocking to her. And she can't question any of it because of the way he tells the story.
Great stream! Fantastic work by your guests!! You always collect the best cohosts lol
The voice acting this stream! First-timer Sean holding his own to bring it with Nettles, dayum. Your guests are always ballin’, 10/10 keep pickin’ ‘em like this, LmL!
Hmm, at 1:47:00-ish thru a few min, I think Nettles and Lml are both right. Jaime’s Lannister upbringing might be what a psych student might call a “protective factor” against the complacency of Kingsguard like Hightower at that point in his life-alongside his literal youth, sense of good/'decency', prowess, etc. For all the hypocrisy of clearly having commonality with Brandon on one level, on another level Jaime’s absolutely right that “There are no men like me.” Him being exactly who he was in all his jumbled, lost, cynical, despairing, Lannister-raised, kid brother glory on that day enabled him to kill Aerys II. Once -there might have been- young men like him but then he was the only one there and doing it, and now -there are no- men like him.
Will definitely be back after dinner to finish the rewatch, smh it took me X days to start in.
This was awesome, all of it. What a family. I wonder if Cat told Brienne about what Jamie did to Bran. She needs to know.
Please have your friend back David. Love his voice and input.
btw if i make a bingo card for david lightbringer livestreams in hotd s2, "youre muted" is def going on there 😅
Loving Nettles rn "Not Cersei! Cersei's stupid!" I concur, Girl Nettles. I concur!
"eve did nothing wrong" is so accurate I could cry
It might be my favorite of Dave's videos. It honestly inspired me to think more about spirituality.
I love Grey Waste Tim, and of course the Beautiful Girl Nettles, but when youre doing readings, Sean is the man! His voices are professional- level. Btw, youre not so bad yourself, David! I've been binging your theories again!
I think the turning point for Cat was realizing Jamie and Tyson had the same sorry about both and the dagger and her maidenhead and she realized Littlefinger was not who she thought he was and a liar.
Wow🎉❤🎉❤😮 Tywin or Darth Vader? Tyrion even try’s to sound like him. Nice Job Sean and Nettles, LML you made it!!!
Sean has a amazing voice
Every stream gets better and better! Thanks for the content ❤
Another enriching stream. Nothing but High level analysis and A1 Voice Work. Thank you all!
So good, I had to watch this again. We need more of this trio. We got such good analysis achieved, while having fun. 😁
6:39 great Stannis voice!!!
ALSO (im just sending msg after msg haha) I love this trio!! Nettles and Sean are SUCH an amazing duo, but yall 3 just absolutely killed it! ❤❤❤
Sean was great! Awesome stream as always Dave and Nettles
Can Sean just reread the entire book series in his Tywin voice please! Thank you 😂
the styles alone were awesome 🦁🦸👑
there is a channel that does deep dives on psychology of characters in asoiaf called my little thought tree. very interesting stuff for the psych nerds out there
incredible stream thanks everyone!
Kevan had a good number of reasons not to stick up for Cercei and prevent the walk of shame. One was, she raped his son who is also her main accuser. Two, last time the church of the seven had an army it took dragons to subdue them, and Kevan's fresh out of dragons. Three, he wanted her out of the way as she was an incompetent drunk, throwing away alliances and power left and right. Four, he believes she is guilty. Five, he saw it as Tywin's wish that Cercei was in the Westerlands and not the regent.
I do want to come back to the whole raping his son thing. The abuse Lancel suffered at her hands (and Robert's and Tyrion's) was quite severe, with a brush with death to top it off. She manipulates Lancel into regicide, then into incestuous sex, then hurts a fresh battle wound he has and never shows the slightest hint of remorse even in her pov chapters. Lancel experiences guilt, powerlessness, physical injury, near death and eventually joins a cultish band of fanatical religious people to deal with his feelings. He might eventually be executed for regicide, though maybe he gets to atone through joining a religious order or something. Kevan knows most if not all of this by the time the walk happens. Cercei should count herself lucky that Kevan even opens the gates to the reed keep at all.
Oooooooh I really really really like this!
I agree with all of this! Kevan has no reason to be kind to Cersei.
Did Jaime imply Catelyn wasn't a maiden on her wedding day? He says, "Perhaps Ned wanted to spare his young bride, if not quite a maiden."
Is that an implication against her virtue, or is it just acknowledging that by the time they'd have talked about it, the wedding night would have passed?
I'm just wondering, because maybe it implicates Petyr as bragging to many people about deflowering Catelyn. Just reinforcing yet again that Littlefinger loves Littlefinger, even if he believes he loves Catelyn
Also, this is juxtaposed with her implicit trust in Petyr, earlier mentioned. If she had caught onto Jaime's implication here, her whole illusion of Petyr as trustworthy would have shattered
Yes that's it exactly
Thank you so much for releasing these videos! the streams are so awesome to watch and I'm so thankful I get to see even though I wasn't there!
"I'll do the septas! I'll do the septas' voices when they come on!" bro I'm screaminggggg 🤣🤣
What I find fascinating about the Lannister family is the fact that is one of the few families in the story that don't have connection with magic of any kind. Even their ancestor Lan the Clever - presumably another son of Garth the Green - took Casterley Rock from the Casterleys using very "humanly" means- his witt - either by conning them or marrying into the family. Maybe because of that , the lack of magic in their family, they are atheists and do not believe in thinks that are different and not part of this world . And I believe because of that , the lack of believing in something greater than yourself, they became so vain and so skilled in using all the forms of "human" powers - because they believe in nothing but themselves. "There is no one like me ...just me" - very existentialist but very human - the most human 😊
lannister analysis is always a blast and this was no exception!!
This quote always gives me chills. It not only makes you understand Jaime's constant arrogance but also how disillusioned he is with the entirety of the KG in general.
Superman does great voices
I hated so hard that he died. Oberyn could have been such an amazing character 😫
Loved this!!!! I hope you do similar vids for the greyjoys and starks ( LOTS of emotional trauma and issues to unpack there)
“Snow… such a white (wight) name. Like the pretty cloaks they gave us in the kings guard….”
Another of George’s more obvious parallels of the kings guard as tools of the king to the wights being used as tools of the Others, in addition to the Starks being compared to wights as you mentioned.
Again just excellent and your guests-fabulous.
“The others were lords’ sons too.” I like to think the others are ice shadow babies of nights king who was lord of winterfell. Or at least he’s lord of the nights watch maybe. But this definitely points to icy Melisandre nights queen giving birth to them
they're blue-blooded!
Thank you for my next art project. GOT burn book!! ❤❤❤
Can you make a separate playlist for these kind of videos?
Sean Mac is an amazing reader 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
'Good stream. 'Loved the guests.
We all know nettles can act but sean was great too. Love how the tywin voice sounded like rogal dorn from tts
Kudos to all of you, the voice acting is really good :O
9:42 Tywin's armor to me reads as a very symbolically loaded "solar feline king" and the idea of sun coded person not as a cherry life bringing individual but like, the sun that burns and peels your skin as it presses you into the earth with oppressive heat.
Like, Tywin cares about the opinions of sheep- because he wants that opinion to be that he and his ilk are not merely kings among men, but gods among kings and lions among wolves.
Eta: 34:42 i feel like tywin would have worked out something similar to Tyrion going to the wall. Cersei having to serve a certain amount of time in penance at the silent sisters or even banishment/ exile. That would remove her from power and sight, ehile also maintaining dignity and "were special so even out punishments are special" air to house Lannister.
Furthermore, 46:06 I think what George is trying to point out is how the punishment of women is always a public event for the purpose of social conditioning/ catharsis.
Men who cheat, who keep mistresses and give them the clothes and jewels of their dead wife aren't stripped naked and paraded through the streets. Robert was 10 times the philandering whore Cersei was but the idea of parading him through the streets naked is incomprehensible. And if this was about incest, when is Jaimie getting his walk of shame?
George is always highlighting how sexual violence is used to keep women in line and seen as a inhuman objects. How many societies, including our own in modern day, see women. If we are not sacred objects passed from father to husband, if we dare to seek agency - *especially* over sex? Well if we aren't for one man chosen for us we may as well be "free use."
And for that? As much as I hate Cersei, the walk of shame never made me feel sorry for her so much as it made me really proud of her. I think she deserves some kind of punishment for a lot of what she's done- but let's be honest, the punishment isn't actually about anything deserving that punishment. This wasn't about her killing Robert, or incest. This is about adultery. Which is bad yes- but even in universe the proper punishment is 6 whacks with a stick and that's it.
No no, this punishment is about a woman breaking the contract between 2 men that made her a sex slave in return for her dad's political clout. (Yes, all arranged marriages in this society are a form of sex slavery, fight me)
So you know what? Good on her for tuning out as much as possible. She deserves a lot, but not to be punished for sleeping with someone other than that crowned Pig.
47:41 I'm gonna be having a whole ass convo with myself but here I go again!
I also think the whole ability to disassociate from traumatic situations and "do the hard thing" is evidence to my tinfoil theory that there's a dark secret in Casterly rock called "intergenerational abuse"
Like- if you were in the real word and 2 pre pubescent children were having sex with each other what would that be an indication of? And what would you call it when their mother hides their behavior rather than fixing it? Can you imagine what Tywin would have done to them?
If an adult man found his 13 year old son with a girl and "punished" that son by forcing him to watch and participate in the girls sexual abuse who would be the abuser?
And as for her narcissism and her inability to process guilt- when you are simultaneously told you are above everyone else by default, and punishment are few but extremely traumatic? (if tyrions punishment is any measure- even hearing about that would be enough to traumatize her and keep her in line) it would make sense that she never learned to think about her misdoings and acknowledge, let alone process those feelings outside of a trauma inducing punishment.
The cleganes are known to be abusive and have a trail of dead women and girls in their wake... And are also some of the most trusted bannermen that Tywin has.
Is it tinfoil? Yes, but this hill of tinfoil is one I'm gonna fight and stand on. Cersei is as fucked up as she is cause and Jamie (and Tyrion) are victims of sexual abuse.
Just want to say that honor doesn't have to come from belief. I'm a nihilist and don't believe in anything and I like to think that I behave honorably, even if I don't attach any feelings of "rightness" or whatever to that behavior. For me, it comes down to pragmatism; we live in a world with other people and generally that goes smoother when you treat others fairly and help them when you can
hey thanks for the comment I appreciate the perspective. I guess I'm reading what you're saying here and still wondering if what you're talking about qualifies as honor. It certainly pragmatism, but would you say that you have a morality that comes from your pragmatism? interesting questions
@@DavidLightbringer I guess it depends on how you want to define honor. Personally, when I see or hear the word honor, I think of a very specific list of qualities: honesty, fairness, and respect. Those things aren't dependent on you believing in a certain morality, only behaving in certain ways in response to certain things. If you wanted to define honor more broadly as something like "being good" then yeah, that would definitionally require you to believe in some moral system, which I do not. I can definitely see the need to look at someone's reasoning and intent when trying to judge harmful actions. Someone trying to cause harm is a way different circumstance than someone accidentally causing harm. But at the end of the day, they still caused harm. In a similar vein, someone treating others with respect, being fair, and being honest, is still having the same positive effect on the world around them regardless of why they did those things. I don't particularly see what is gained by making a distinction based on reasoning in this instance, provided that it's a pattern of behavior and not a one time thing. I guess you could combine the two ideas and say there's a difference between behaving honorably (acting with respect, fairness and honesty) and being honorable (being "good" because you believe it's the right thing to do). I just don't particularly see the need to care about the latter. A person's reasons don't effect me, only their actions, and when it comes to someone treating me in a neutral or positive manner, I never think about why they chose to behave that way.
Dang! Had a migraine yesterday and couldn't catch the live. I'll be listening at work today!
Bro, his tywin has POWER😮
Cat don't want no scrubs. Great stream BTW.
I think it's interesting that bran didn't make the cut to circes list of guilt ghosts. I know Jaime was the one that pushed him, but the fact that she didn't even consider him shows to me she believes that's entirely Jamie's sin.
Loved the voices from Sean! He and Nettles are 🔥 voice actors!!
Great video y’all voice acting was on point. Could prolly do 6 more Lannister streams make it an even 7
Sean made lol so much during the stream, loved him. great voice acting
GN did a great job as well omg you guys are ta len ted
David looks like his electronic shop is always having a going outta business sale 🤣🤣🤣
accurate hahaha
I think a lot of Cersei's bad decisions are more the result of a lack of emotional intelligence rather than a lack of political or strategic intelligence which she seems to have a decent amount of. Her worst mistakes are all about trusting or mistrusting the wrong people.
I just had a horrible vision in my head. Rather than just murder the Mad King, Jaime should have tied his frail king to the iron throne. I imagine George would love the idea of someone using the Iron Throne as a method of torture eventually leading to murder. Kind of a microcosm of the story ya know
I like this idea.
@@girlnettles big fan of yours so I’m flattered. This got me thinking that maybe George could adapt this idea when Dany arrives to Kings Landing to find Circe clinging to the chair. A different mad ruler, but would make for awful imagery from either perspective.
@@dirtysheepdog I’ve thought about the throne becoming a weapon again ever since I read about Maegor’e manner of death. If this happened to Cersei I might drown the earth in female excitement juice. 💦
Gold is a very malleable metal! In connection with honor being iron, also gold with greed and greed being the root of all evil.
1:13:31 look at the chat!
it’s hilarious the chat has created a Jaime - Catelyn ship from this
Sean gave me chills with his dead on impersonation of Nikolaj.
@@alyssamitchell8191 me toooooo