I've only used #3... I use 3" screws drilled in half way at various levels around the base of the 4x4. The screws seal in the cement for uplift protection. Glad I ran across your video....
Great video. I use cored block piers or charred and tarred in ground on a cement cookie. Do keep in mind masonry below grade can become water logged if it can't dry out. So soil conditions play a big factor in in choice of a foundation.
i toss a bag of sakrete in the bottom of the hole and stand the post on it and pack stone and dirt around it tight. been doing it that way for 30+ years. i have also coated the bottom of the post with roofing tar below grade but that adds to the cost and time.
I am on my second ploe barn type shop. And also apply 2 coats of roofing cement 3' up the post and a generous amount on the ends. Have also done this on a few other applications where I buried a treated 4X6 in the ground. I was curious if others do this. Nice to know. One other thing I do is drill 2 holes around the perimeter of the building through the post and insert rebar in these holes. and they are inbedded in the concrete when I pour the slab for the shop. The rebar goes all the way around the building in every post. Robert
I have used a technique where I take an "I" beam which goes into the concrete (with mud hooks) and sticks up about 4' above grade. I drill about 4 holes through the web and then I have the ability to through-bolt wood uprights to the top of the pole barn. In this way there is a firm foundation and no wood touches the dirt. All that is needed is to ensure that the "I" beam is level (done while the concrete is wet).
What keeps the I beam from rusting out where it's imbedded in the concrete? Sounds like an inside out lally column, which are known to rust at the bottom where moisture collects. Concrete never dries out completely
I've been thinking about this issue for some time, wanting to get the best residential post frame solution for the cost. The components necessary for rot are food source, oxygen, moisture, and temperature. Rot occurs in untreated posts from +2/-12 inches relative to grade, because this is where the combination of all factors is present. If you apply a plastic sleeve, it seems important to drill a small hole in the bottom so that accumulated water can escape. Also if you want uplift protection you need drill bolts at multiple sites through the sleeve so that it adheres to the post. At which point there are two ways near the base of the post for water to (over the years) enter/exit. Because the sleeve is not airtight: warm, oxygen-rich air from the surface can make its way down. So while you are separating the post from soil, the conditions may be viable for rot not only near the surface but throughout the length of the buried post. Would it therefore make sense to air-seal around the top of the post-protector to prevent surface-level air from reaching the bottom of the post?
With the Post Protector sleeves, you have the option to drill weep holes at the bottom or leave it solid. I do know some people like to silicone the top of those sleeves, but with the multi-year tests they have run on those, I don't think you would have any rot issues, silcone or not. Especially seeing as they are encased inside a sealed wall. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@confidentlocal8600 A thought process there might be - the weep hole is on the underside of the sleeve, and the sleeve is surrounded by concrete that is resting on a layer of a few inches of gravel. The concrete may have a "resting humidity" but as it becomes saturated the excess water drains down to the gravel due to gravity. Some moisture to the wood is doable, but if there was some unforeseeable process that caused water to accumulate around the bottom of the sleeve, it might lead to failure more quickly if there was no ability to drain.
Here in Minnesota I'm building a 42x56. I believe I'll be coating the posts with roofing tar, and adding rain gutters to keep most of the rain away from the building.
That's an old school way of keeping the soil from contacting the post. Gutters are always nice to keep water away from the building. Good luck with your project!
Because of soil conditions in my area which include boulders, drilled footings would have been expensive . I went with a poured slab with a thickened edge that with brackets bolted to it and the posts. Made for a perfectly squared and level building and all wood above ground.
Is this an area where the ground freezes? I plan on building a pole barn in Vermont but I think this too much ledge where I want to put it. So I was thinking slab-on-grade but I'm not sure if the cement will crack in time
@@MrSprintcat just use 1½" styrofoam under the concrete. You will have no frost heave, therefore very minimal cracking. Also use a vibrator and vibrate the whole floor. I usually vibrate about every 6" in line
I am building a post frame using wet set brackets, but have noticed a problem with this method. Water will pool atop the concrete right at the joint between the concrete and the bracket if there is no flashing to shed the water over the top of the concrete. I have yet to see anyone on UA-cam address this. The 1/4" steel brackets will rust away faster than a pole would rot. I'll be making flashing for mine, and will show it on my channel.
That is an interesting thought! Those brackets are pretty thick steel and I have seen some people "float them up so that only the bottom would be possibly touched by the concrete and slope it away and I have also seen people bury those brackets partially into the poured floor. Your best bet to install them correctly would be to contact Perma-Column themselves and see what they recommend. Would be interested to see your flashing solution. Thanks for stopping by!
@@christopherhaak9824 The brackets are not inside the structure. They are on top of the concrete pads which are clearly visible from the exterior, and powder coating does not make them impervious to water. Several had rust on them from sitting outside a few weeks.
@@PlanetMojo the brackets are interior to the external purlins and outer surface skin. So, they are inside the structure unless you build without walls. The brackets don't rust, the rebar connections might, they aren't powder coated.
@@christopherhaak9824 That is incorrect. They are directly exposed to the elements, and can be seen from the outside of the building. Water goes down the side of the building to the top of the piers and goes directly onto the tops of the piers and back to the brackets. Powder coating will deter rust for awhile, but it is not rustproofing. I can make a video that shows it clearly if you like?
The best option is a 8" sonotube with a big base of 24" at the bottom with 3 bended steel rod in it and on the top sturdy wall braket! The concrete end about a feet and a half from the ground.
That would be the most expensive by far. Its no trick to over-build something. The real trick is to not over-build and not under-build. That way you don't waste materials and money.
If my costumer can't pay me to do it the best way, I pass away! When I build something, I want to see what we've build it straight for multiple decade.
I've put the posts in square steel tube. And bolt it 2' inside the tube. The posts has 2 L brackets to site the posts to height you need or want. But fill the tube to with gravel to the height want this will help with water and weights on the roof for different type of weather. Most people dont do this because of the cost and time . Even drilling the holes
I got talked into doing the pole barn building method once on a 30 x 40 shop. Never again. I dont see the benefit unless it's just an open 3 sided shed or something. It turned into a hassle. You still need to purchase about the same number of 2 x 6 studs and lumber, but now you have wood posts in the ground. My upcoming build and all future builds will be a slab and walls built like a house. Easier to frame up and insulate, everything fits and costs about the same.
I hear you on that and I have encouraged people to build traditional stick-built in certain cases, it all depends on what your plans are. That being said, three of these methods eliminate ground to wood contact and Perma-Column offers a dry-set bracket that you can build off of a traditional poured footer or basement wall as well. It's always good to do your research and figure out what works best with both price and building process before committing to it. There are many different way to get the job done! Best of luck with your upcoming build!
perma-columns ALL THE WAY! keeps the wood completely out of the dirt. easy to set, very easy to replace the post if it gets damaged. the posts DONT have to be treated ( cheaper ) AND the way the columns are built by using 3 boards nailed and glued together are way stronger than 1 single post. its a no-brainer if you want the building to LAST! we put up a 40x80 barn and LOVE them!
Great video! Most of the rot on the poles we have seen is starting at ground level to about 18 inches down. What we have done is to coat the poles with roofing tar but we go one step further. We wrap the pole with Ice and Water Shield roofing protection starting at about 6 inches above the ground down the pole the width of the wrap. It basically is a barrier from the ground to the pole and is a really cheap and great option. We actually looked at a pole barn we built 20 years back that was damaged in a storm and the poles we did with this method were still in new condition so I would expect them to last my lifetime and my kids lifetime.
That would be a similar principle to the Post Protectors (option #4) but we have found the Post Protectors to be very quick and easy to install while maintaining a full separation of wood from ground contact. They also make a grade board protector to keep the grade board from contacting the dirt. Thanks for the info!
What would you suggest for a really tiny pole barn? I'm making a lean-to shed thats going to be about 8x12. I want to build it like a pole barn, so I can add a cement slab later. It'll be used as a garden shed (garden and lawn tools, lawn mowers, etc)
Good question. If your budget allows, I would definitely suggest going with one of the Perma-Column options as they are permanent and will never have an issue with rot in the future. But since it is a garden shed, if you don't want to spend as much, you can always go with the Post Protector sleeve or a well treated post. It all depends on how permanent you want to make the building and how good your ground drainage is in your yard. If it is all sand and drains super well, you can get by with a treated post for a garden shed just fine.
@UCEeRl9TZVCiUXgYUXNyMoHA Deck post brackets may/may not work, I would check with the manufacturer to see if they are designed to hold that load laterally, but I wouldn't see why you couldn't find a bracket that works. You don't need to use treated 4x4 if they will never make water/ground contact, but if they are close and may have that in contact, I would for precaution.
We have heard of many different liquid applied methods that people have tried, but the best option would be to have a solid separation from the soil like Post Protectors or Concrete Perma-Column methods. Rubber coating may help, but if moisture and rot work it's way through, it could actually speed up the decay by "trapping" moisture in the post.
Question: Can you combine building a pole barn construction but pier & beam base? I have researched without success. We want to build a 24x24 2 story cabin. The best property view would be about 3’ off the ground to clear the view from a nearby property fence. Hope this makes sense. Thank you!
Absolutely, as long as your piers are rated for the weight/shear...etc., you could bracket off the Sturdi-Wall bracket showed in this video and build from that.
I have a couple questions. On the third example, can the concrete be poured with an above ground casing so the concrete is above where water could get in? Wouldnt that prevent any rot at all? Also, in the last example, does it need rebarb in the base of it? And then, is it just back filled with same dirt or does it need to be something else added in?
The third option is not one we would recommend, but if you have to use that for code reasons or you just really want to, I would make sure that concrete comes up and is sealed as best as possible to prevent bacteria/moisture from working it's way between the post and concrete. That is the flaw in that design, the concrete tends to trap moisture and bacteria against the post causing rot. On the final example, that doesn't need rebar, it can be poured at the width of the hole and 10-12" deep for a solid footing on most barns. And yes, as long as the soil is good draining type, it can be used to backfill around the post, which will allow water to drain away from the post rather than trapping it. Good questions!
Great question! The first two options won't shrink or expand as they are full concrete bases. The 4th option (Post Protector) doesn't matter if it leaves gaps as it still won't' come in contact with the soil (aka wood eating microbes) The final option won't matter if it shrinks or expands because it is surrounded by drainable fill that water will run away from. The danger of the third option is that the concrete around the post creates a "well" that holds dirt and water against the post if not installed correctly. Just a heads up for folks planning on using that method, you have to watch for rot issues.
Not for the large post frame buildings we are building. That product looks pretty interesting for decks and small sheds, but I haven't seen a largely available helical pile method for large post frame buildings yet. Do you have a supplier you know of that provides that service for post frame buildings?
Not sure on the loan requirements, but it is always a good idea to separate wood from ground contact with one method or another. Good luck with your project!
In an attempt to cob job/add protection to a wood pole... Wondering if a person could coat a pole in that liquid plastic stuff that you put on concrete backer board before tiling in a shower? Probably not adhere?
I would probably stick with solutions that are specifically built for a post frame building to make sure it worked long term. Shower coating isn't designed for being below grade.
Good question! We never use round posts as they are much harder to get the connections we want for a good post frame building. Your best bet is to find a way to protect the post from rotting by coating it possibly, but round posts and tar coating is pretty old school. If you have the option, go with treated square lumber.
Not quite sure what you are referring to on that, but I would love to see your suggestion for the product from Simpson. I can assure you that Perma-Column is more than enough strength on a post frame building and it has been tested quite a bit.
@@MilmarBuildings I'm sure they are strong for gravity loads. But laterally pole barns are relying on a cantilevered columns that transfers lateral loads to the foundation by a fixed connection at the base (typically wood posts embedded into concrete). While your concrete itself is just fine, those two connections are just bolting the wood post to the base plate with two small bolts - there is no fixity in that connection - therefore the lateral load doesn't get into the foundation. So unless you have bracing above in the structure you wouldn't have a lateral force resisting system in place. The simpson product is new but it's called a MPBZ post base.
@@tonystenlund2899 I actually have looked into the MPBZ brackets some, and while they seem very suited to a free-standing pergola or porch structure, the Perma-Column is better for a post frame building that is braced not only by the lumber framework, but mostly by the metal skin itself with literally thousands of screw connections which "locks" a post frame building into place very strongly. Also, I don't know if you have had hands-on experience with the Perma-Column posts, but they have embeded rebar down into that 60" concrete column and the base is very thick metal that cups around the base of the post and is through-bolted, so having any twisting is all but impossible once it is installed. I love seeing new products though and if they work better, I am all ears!
@@MilmarBuildings thin metal doesn't have diagram capacity that's why PEMB's have steel cables. I am familiar with the perma columns - I'm not questioning its capacity. It's the connection of the wood to the plate that I'm questioning. Thanks for the replies and good luck.
Have Existing Pull Barn (built mid 1990's - I believe 1997 based on permits) with 10 foot single sliding door. Pole Barn is a 40X40. I would like to add an additional sliding door (same size) directly opposite this door. This will aid in pulling in and pulling out trailers, popup campers, etc. Not to mention provide good cross ventilation. I believe, from looking things over, one 4X6 structure pole will be removed and a new one slid over like 2 feet. A like cross board (from memory 2X12) put in place overhead etc (Similar to other door). The question is I have a EarthQuake post hole Digger (2 person) that can dig a 10 inch hole about 50 inches. I also have a 8 inch auger bit similar size. Is that wide and deep enough (8 or 10inch) or should I rent larger equipment for this one hole dig? I was planning on a concrete around pole approach for this single pole. I am not certain if they make smaller pads then 14 inch. (What I see at local hardware store).
Our standard approach would be to use a 6x6 post instead of 4x6 and auger that hole 18" wide and 4' deep (for our local frost levels in Indiana) I also would suggest you pack around that with drainable gravel rather than concrete to keep the pole from rotting, but if you use concrete, be careful to slope it away and seal up the top to keep water/dirt from making it into there. Or get a Post Protector sleeve on that post prior to pouring concrete around it. Best of luck!
@@MilmarBuildings - Only my corners are 6X6 in the building. The current sliding door is utilizing only 4X6s and cross 2 X12's. This pole barn was a kit. The to be removed post is not a tall post (~12 ft total - 4 below grade plus 8ft above) but I was going to get one to tie to the end roof truss top (~20ft including below grade). We probably have similar soils as Fort Wayne is about 50-60 miles to the west of me. Soil is Dark Heavy Clay. The soil is supposed to be some of the worse in the nation to dig I am told by the farmers all around me. Pardon my ignorance. wouldn't the large hole (18") allow the pole to possible move more? Is that desired? Also would a 4X6 then suggest typically a smaller hole? If 18" is needed I probably just do a couple side by side holes with the 8 inch auger and the post hole digger and just dig out the opening difference by hand, if its necessary. I can do stone but I had concern about stability. Thanks for the suggestions!
@@cmgray74 I hear you. Typically the larger hole is needed for a larger footer and to pack enough drainable soil/gravel around the post, but in your case, if it is not as much a load bearing post, you may be able to get away with a smaller hole, my only concern would be that if you can't get a large enough footer under the post, it may tend to sink if it doesn't have a good place to rest.
That is a great question! Probably depends on depth of placement, footer, soil type...etc., but flooding would definitely be better to have a no-wood-to-ground contact for minor flooding and high water tables. Earthquakes are a whole different ballgame. Thankfully, in our building area in the Midwest, we have very few (and very small) earthquakes compared to the West Coast and other areas of the world.
Is it ok to pour concrete around the post protector sleeve? ... So, you'd have a first pour of concrete for the footing at the bottom, 6 inches maybe, then place the post, then pour around the post maybe just a couple of feet up. Would that be more secure than just having dirt around it?
You could do that and the sleeve will keep the concrete from touching the post or trapping sediment, but if you want the ability for the weep holes on the sleeve to work, you would have to leave a space near the bottom to allow water to escape, possibly with a layer of open grade gravel.
I'm looking at doing option #3 for a cheap style pole barn (24x12) that I want to use a a garage/workshop with a dirt floor for maybe 2-4 years. Humidity is under 30% year round with only 4 inches of rain a year. Any reasons to spend more going for option 1 or 2?
If you are looking for cost efficiency, I would go with option 4. You can buy Post Protectors through Home Depot and surrounding a treated wood post with concrete like option 3 is usually not a great plan for longevity. We almost exclusively use option 2 and 4 currrently, and only use option 5 when someone is building a barn that they don't care if the foundation is fully intact in 40-50 years.
Absolutely, costs on everything is pretty high right now, but if you want to keep your posts out of the ground, it is worth the investment. The Post Protector sleeves are a more affordable and easy to install option to separate your post from the ground as well! Home Depot carries them as well.
Real simple. Its called liquid rubber. Apply several coats of that stuff and it will last forever and a day. Will never rot. Cheap, simple, easy and non toxic. Youre welcome.
Hey! We have definitely heard of this method, we prefer complete separation and the speed of install of Post Protectors or Perma-Column. Thanks for sharing that option!
We usually wouldn't recommend that as dirt and water could still potentially work it's way through and degrade that vinyl over time. More peace of mind with using a product that is built for the long run. 👍
Not at this time, but any time you are dealing with less than perfect sandy conditions, we would recommend going with either Post Protectors or Perma-Columns to keep the post from touching the soil. Or even with sand, it just brings peace of mind about your foundation.
Good video I'm planning a log pavilion,going to use pine logs ,about 10 to 12 inch in diameter,any suggestions on how to place the logs on the concrete footer, pavilion will be 20'x20' gravel base and stone pavers ,reason will cost way too much to pour concrete and cannot get to job site with a mixer truck , thanks
That's a good question, I would definitely use some form of concrete footer if you can, there are pre-formed footer pads you can buy to set those into the ground. Best bet is to ask a local builder in your area to make sure it meets code and will last.
In option 4, instead of the plastic sleeve can i paint on the treated 4x4 with like a tar or something that bonds to it as it cures creating that barrier between soil and wood? I dont know if theres a product out there that is specifically used for this
You could, but having a permanent, non-permeable heavy duty HDPE sleeve is going to do the job better than a coating that may wear away with time or allow bacteria to eat it's way through. We always recommend going with the safer method and Post Protector offers a 4x4 sleeve as well from Home Depot!
For building green/cheap in climate zone 3 (mixed humid), how would you detail the floor/wall connection using option 4? Wet set brackets would involve thermal bridging so I would prefer to avoid that.
Hello there! Sorry I didn't see your comment sooner! If you wanted to use Post Protector sleeves, you can build that exactly the same way as a traditional post frame building with grade board set right through the sleeve and concrete floor poured up to grade board and around the post/sleeve. Post Protector also offers a product that covers the grade board and keeps it from touching soil, to extend the life of the grade board. Hope that answers your question!
You forgot one. Installing a concrete donut with gravel between the post and the concrete for drainage. Than installing gravel around the posts compacted in lifts,
We were trying to cover the most used options, but you are correct, there are many variations on how to set a post! That one I haven't heard of, but it sounds interesting! Not sure how the concrete "donut" would work. Would you have that preformed or poured in place? And how would you compact the gravel in lifts, with a small tamper? Thanks for the input!
@@MilmarBuildings The donut is a precast round concrete pad dropped in the hole. Takes the place of dropping a bag of sackrete in the hole. The gravel would have to be tamped with a pole like the Japanese use to compact soil. The thing is with gravel the more a pole wiggles the tighter the gravel gets.
Correct, that is another great option and a variation on the Perma-Column Wet-Set bracket shown as option 1. Same bracket made by them, but instead of a wet-set rebar, you can mount that with bolts to a standard foundation wall that is already cured. We have used that method on occasion.
I'm building a small lumber storage building with cantilevered roof & 1 row of poles I have 5) 12' 6x6 white cedar posts I'm thinking about wrapping the bottoms with "Grace" / ice & water type roofing membrane, my only fear is will this method seal the posts too well and cause dry rot or a similar type problem.
I have heard of people wrapping posts with various materials. The biggest danger on that is that when water works it way through the top or sides, the wrap can effectively "trap" the water next to the post and cause it to decay even faster. If you were very careful it might work, but I would probably leave the roofing materials on the roof and stick with something designed for in-ground use if possible.
That is an option that some people have used, especially in the past, but long term studies on buildings have shown it is better to go with a full barrier system like Post Protectors, or concrete system like Perma-Column. Plus, you don't have to mess around with sticky tar. 👍
Yes, some builders use a drilled hole for that, or a partial tube at the top if the top of the hole is collapsing. You can also place those into poured footer walls that are in forms.
That is a similar option to Post Protector sleeves, there are several sleeve/wrap options out there, we like the Post Protector sleeve option and have added their grade board sleeve as well now!
Generally adding a second floor to a typical post frame building doesn't change these foundations. Sometimes you need bigger footer pad underneath the post, but generally that is all, if anything. You simply tie your floor joist system directly into your posts and you are good to go!
Cedar is quite expensive, especially now, so we typically reserve that for porch post upgrades that will be visible after construction. For an upgraded foundation, Perma-Columns or Post Protector sleeves with laminated columns makes more sense.
It is possible, though not easy. Sometimes, if the building is in bad enough shape, it is actually cheaper to demo the whole thing and build new, but that all depends on condition of the steel and posts together.
No, typically we back-fill with the native base or gravel around those. While you could pour concrete, it isn't necessary. It is more important to get a solid concrete base UNDER the post so that you don't have any settling and the built in uplift measures on the Post Protector keep that from shifting upwards. Side to side movement isn't a problem once it is back-filled and framed in.
Typically we would use an 18" auger for that hole and fill it with concrete. In lower Michigan for typical poles, they sometimes require 24", but with a solid concrete pier like that, for most buildings, 18" would sufficient.
They're the most expensive out there but the best in the business is Morton Buildings they have the best lowers which aren't even pictured in this video because they're 10 times more advanced than any of the five you did picture
Hey Mike, thanks for the input! This video was made to show the most commonly used foundations, we didn't exclude Morton's foundation system intentionally seeing as the PermaColumn is very similar already with full concrete base, metal plate connectors and uplift protection. Morton does have an easier way to adjust the post heights up and down prior to concrete, but if you laser your post holes, you can achieve the same goal. It's great to see post frame companies like Morton innovate advancements in how we build longer lasting buildings and we are working on our own "raising the bar" standards as well.
Great question and totally dependent on your soil type, moisture...etc. In ideal conditions the treated posts we use are supposed to last 50+ years, but if those are put in heavy, wet conditions, that can can advance rot much faster which is why we recommend using either Post Protector sleeves or Perma-Columns in any regularly-wet soil that doesn't have excellent drainage. That being said, for some purposes, a well-treated post is the most economical option and if used right, can last a very long time, but for any residence or finished shop space, we would recommend upgrading to the more protected options if at all possible.
I am a few weeks away from building a pole barn house/garage. What do you think about using a gravel base, Post Protectors, and than filled around with concrete? Better uplift resistance than just Post Protectors.
If you have the post protector to separate the concrete from the post, that would definitely be a good plan! I would recommend putting some form of footing underneath the post in the form of a round pre-fromed pad or pour concrete 10" thick in the bottom of the holes and let it dry before setting your posts. Another option for uplift protection is to attach a wood block horizontally to each post towards the base of the post to keep it from pulling up. Best of luck with your project!
@@MilmarBuildings . Wouldn't attaching the wood block to the base of the pole open up holes for water to get in our is that ok since it's at the bottom like that?
@@manfrummt It could, but in addition to it being far enough below grade to not have the oxygen to rot, you can seal those holes from the wood blocks by dabbing some sealant on before bolting in the block and you also have the option to open weep holes at the bottom of the post protector to allow any water that gets inside to drain out.
Usually, you want to make sure a plain treated post has good drainable fill around it to keep it from rotting, but with the post protector sleeve, you can pack it even with clay or wetter fill or even concrete as it keeps the post from touching any of the backfill! Pretty handy!
My wife and I are planning to start building a post frame house in the next couple of months. We are going to be in North/Central Idaho. Cost is of course going to be a huge factor, that is why we plan to build the structure ourselves. Does your company's range extend to Idaho? We already have come up with our desired dimensions and a basic floor plan. How would I go about seeking a materials estimate?
Hello Vaughn, I sure wish we could build in Idaho, that is some beautiful country! Unfortunately, we only are able to service our local area in the Midwest, mainly Indiana and southern Michigan. We also don't have our own supply yard and source our materials from several local suppliers. Best of luck with your project and you may want to check out www.nfba.org to see if you have a closer builder/supplier that could help you out!
Either of the first two options are the best for a house application if the budget allows. Check out Perma-Columns website to see what they have to offer! 👍
simpson strong tie MPBZ is halfway embedded in concrete to provide latteral strength and post is not touching concrete so will last very long. your first 2 methods provide hardly any lateral strength and require knee braces or other supports.
Interesting product, looked it up and it looks great! More suited for pergolas and freestanding structures rather than post frame looks like. The Perma-Column options listed here don't require knee bracing as the building itself and the metal is the brace and through-bolts are used, plus they have a much deeper embedment of the brackets than the MPBZ, but I can see where that would be better for use of free-standing structures, porches, pergolas...etc. Thanks for the tip!
We have heard of some folks using that method or a part of that, but currently we don't offer that option as it isn't as practical for the way we build. Sounds like it could work!
If you went with the last option, and the wood under the ground eventually started to rot, is there a way to repair it? Could you dig around it and encase it with concrete at that time, like in the third option?
There is a few ways to repair it. Either sister a new post next to it and transfer the load that way or a more simple and less messy way would be to put a metal repair sleeve like Strongway Systems offers. I wouldn't recommend just pouring concrete around it if the rot is already set in.
Or go with option one shown where you cut off above the rot portion and stick on a bracket, then pour concrete into the hole up to the bottom of the bracket and let set. Then again you need to have the rot to be low enough for the base of the bracket itself to sit level with the floor for this option, if the rot goes higher than that then the Strongway sleeve system is the best option to go with when the rot goes up high.
Fill around the posts is usually the native soil/fill that was drilled out before setting the post, especially in our local area in the midwest where a lot of the dirt is sandy and has good drainage. If you are concerned about post rot with ground contact, the Post Protector or the Perma-Column options are the best choices to go with.
the best method is to set a five foot long heavy gage galvanized angle iron into the concrete, with the wood post already bolted to the angle iron...the angle iron has a couple bolts through it at its bottom keeping it in the concrete... this is not going anywhere...
I haven't heard of that particular method before, but it sounds solid, just may be a bit harder to install than some of these methods. PermaColumns are very similar in that they have rebar running down into the concrete and those super heavy duty metal brackets that get through-bolted through the post. Thanks for the input!
You pour the concrete in the hole and then set the bracket on top while it is still wet, but dry enough to hold the bracket level with a string line. Great question!
Those are definitely interesting and may be become more standard for post frame buildings in the future, but so far, they are still a bit cost-prohibitive and have to be made fairly beefy to hold up a large post frame building. We haven't used those as of now, but will keep an eye on them for the future for sure as they become more mainstream.
@@cbmarchi I do not as I have never had pricing for the Helical. That being said, we figure around $100-$150 in extra material and labor for the Perma-Column options
@@jackmcdonnell4876 thanks Jack. Trying to figure out what the best approach will be for a project on a budget. The site is in a flood plain -thinking helical piles could work. But maybe so could conventional piles. Trying to get an idea of the costs and spans to ballpark whats feasible
True, you can go overboard. I wouldn't recommend most of these for fence posts, but the Post Protector sleeves made for fence posts are handy and keep the base of your posts looking great!
Nice overview. I like your options and explanations, but I have to tell you: "uplift ribs" and uplift brackets just make you lose credibility. Seriously! There was NEVER a fence post, sign post, power pole, pier, bridge support, or post frame building pole since man has walked the earth that lifted up out of the hole. Sorry to be so blunt, but the forces reacting upon the post would have to pull perfectly vertical to even remotely make that an issue. This issue bothers me because so many supposedly (engineers, building officials) reasonable people think they need this.. OK, so I vented. Keep up the good work. I get it. It is easier to offer these than convince smart people that they have a dumb idea.
The uplift brackets are required by most counties/townships where we work, so there isn't much option for us to not include those. I think the bigger issue is not that the building would actually "lift" out of the hole, but that with frost heave and earth movement, that the posts could shift and cause framing or metal issues, even with a small movement. The uplift brackets are to help give the compacted fill a way to resist that movement somewhat. Thanks for your input, always looking for better ways to build!
All bad ideas. Don't be cheap pour a solid continuous footing at least 4 inches above finish grade never regret it. Build your pole shed on top of footing. Stops rodents. Easy to scoop manure with loader. .... ect.
You certainly can pour a full footer, but some of the appeal of a post frame building certainly comes from the simplicity of setting posts directly and I would argue that some of these options are just as strong and easier in certain cases than pouring a traditional footer. There is also Perma-Column brackets to mount posts to full footer walls, which we have done before. Thanks for the input!
People if you have any brains at all, don’t put wood into the ground, pour concrete up past grade and do it the best way, simple,,,,bag mix makes it so you can do it without excess minimum load fees of 100-200. Dollars from your concrete supplier, hand mix it or spend 200. And buy electric mixer and have at it, you won’t be sorry, better yet if your kids get the house they won’t have to rebuild when they are 60, tnt concrete …
Thanks for the input! Concrete is definitely the most bulletproof method, which is why the Perma-Column concrete columns or pouring concrete all the way up and setting a wet-set or dry-set bracket is the best for keeping rot away from the posts. The Post Protector sleeves are also a nice option to have for cost and speed of install on some buildings.
We have definitely heard that from people and it is the reason we always recommend separating wood from ground contact. Also, good idea to check your treating ratings for wood you are planning to make contact with the ground and make sure your drainage is properly set. Thanks for the input!
Hey Ronnie, the last option is filled in with drainable dirt/sand and/or gravel. You just want to make sure it can be compacted down, but will drain easily to avoid future rot. On the concrete, it depends on how wide your hole is and how thick you want that pad. Hope that helps!
Thanks. Two more questions. What are your thoughts as well, on your posts sitting on rocks you buy at the store, Instead of a concrete pad? For drainage in my soil at the bottom of the posts since it rains a lot here. (saturated soil four feet down). Also your thoughts on people drilling through the bottom 6 inches of their post parallel with the ground and putting rebar through the bottom of the post and pouring concrete and them saying “ it will prevent the up force of the posts”.! Me personally, how can any wind pull a building so heavy out of the ground? Not enough lift area for the wind to lift like a kite or a wing of an airplane. Why go here many unnecessary steps in my opinion
@@bucsboy78 Hey Ronnie, the post needs to be set on a larger footprint than just the bottom of the post, whether that is a concrete pre-made "cookie" from the store or poured to wider/thicker dimensions in the base of your hole and letting it harden before setting the post. If you have a high water table, I would recommend going with a post protector sleeve around your post or even better, a Perma-Column concrete post, as you won't have to worry about any rot then. On the uplift bracket, I do like having that sometimes as post frame walls can become quite the force in high winds, but instead of drilling through the post and compromising it, I would mount a woodblock or steel L-bracket to the side of the post for that uplift, not rebar through it
Thanks for putting this all in one place! I really like the idea of the plastic sleeve, but what keeps water from collecting between the sleeve and post? We have really wet ground here.
You can leave the sleeves solid so that no water would get in, but honestly, water itself doesn't rot the post, you also need bacteria and warmth, which is why most posts fail right at ground level with the combo of those things. If you have a high water table and are worried, the concrete Perma-Columns are a great option as well.
I used the sleeves. There are holes that the directions have you drill for drainage (optional) . You set the sleeved post in the hole and on your doughnut, fill with gravel past the drilled Holes so water drains out the bottom, then pour concrete.
@@TheRainHarvester I'm not aware of a metal pole option right now for Post Frame buildings. The Perma-Column is concrete below grade with a 1/4" steel plate bracket that gets bolted through to the wood post above grade and has a longer lifespan than even a concrete basement wall. Also, we never recommend using 4x4 posts for a building, we stick with 6x6 and larger as needed for wider spans. Occasionally we use a 4x6 post for an entry door framing, but for wall supports, 6x6 laminated columns are the way to go.
I live on the top of a hill, when I built my pole barn, excellent drainage. I followed the locals, and dug as deep as I could with a skid steer auger, poured some crushed stone at the base, and then filled in with drainable/compactible dirt fill. I have had zero movement, no rot, no issues so far. (about a decade and a half) my poles were 4 thicknesses of .40 PT 2x6's, stainless nails below ground, steel nails above 4" up. I staggered the PT with KD above ground, 4 different lengths, Prior to applying shiplap pine vertical I lag bolted the posts every 2' (in addition to nails.
That's great that you have such good drainage! I probably would recommend using concrete at the base instead of crushed stone, but it sounds like it is working for you, so that is good! Unfortunately, a lot of our owners have much damper ground, so we have to take more measures to prevent rot, but sounds like you thought your process through!
Should have also shown the dry set version along side option 1, or as a stand alone since it is useful for footing wall type foundations for rodent prone areas or a pole barn with crawl space and wood flooring.
Coat poles with coppertox up to two feet (termite control); Coat end grain with tar (moisture control); Attach pole to a galvalume support on concrete footings 6in above grade. Southern old school method lasts 50 years.
Thanks for the ideas! I think you would save a lot of time with the perma-column option which keeps your wood 16" above grade and saves you all those steps if possible.
lol dawg i hope someone reads this, i hired a guy to sink me in 4/ 12 foot poles for my barn this dude sank them 10 inchs in the ground LOL i came out after 48 hours pushed them all over and fried him............ i redid the holes all 36 inchs deep and 2 bags of rete sank them lol........................................................... fyi this pole barn is 10/15 supports really nothing but a tin roof, open all sides
We try to keep it simple, but also up to code. You have to have a concrete pad at the base to keep the post (and building) from settling downward. Having rock or sand around is great for drainage though.
Correct, sometimes filling around with gravel will help with draining away from the post. Can't say I have ever heard of anybody building a post-frame building by driving 6x6 posts into the ground, that would take some very big equipment and would possibly compromise the post strength, especially with laminated posts. Thanks for the input!
@@MuninnMyrkvi No worries! I have definitely driven fence posts in like you mentioned, that is a great method for fence posts, not so much pole barns! :)
The only time pole barn construction makes sense is when the customer can harvest the trees off his own land at no cost to make the poles from. OTHERWISE, A full metal building is cheaper-stronger-faster to erect-easier to modify-longer lasting. !
Hey there! The posts themselves aren't the largest cost of the buildings we construct. Usually the metal siding and roof cost more. That being said, sometimes it does make more financial sense to go with metal frame buildings, mostly for larger than 80 foot spans or commercial buildings where higher ceiling are needed. Thanks for the input!
Would have been good to also mention the massive difference in lateral strength between the first 3 compared to the last three. More "structural" members are required to prevent "racking" if the pole/post is split between above/below grade. A local contractor lost an entire 60x80 building using the first method during construction because they framed the building, and installed the metal roofing before doing anything with the wall "girts" and sheathing/metal. A brief gust of wind grabbed the open roof and the entire building "racked" and collapsed in the one direction. Each post failed in some fashion at the anchors and base of the post. some split the post, some pulled the anchor loose from the concrete... It changed my sequence of construction when building...
Correct, the lateral strength for split-units like Perma-Columns is all in how well it is anchored to the post. Throwing some screws in it won't work, it has to be structural bolted. Having a building rack is a scary thing regardless of the foundation and the best way to avoid that is get the metal on quickly and make sure the temp/permanent bracing is installed correctly. Definitely something to watch out for!
Our builder mentioned this very thing and what they do to create more lateral strength in the posts is stack four treated 2x6's to make the poles instead of a single post then the run carriage bolts through each of them along the length. It has held up extremely well in some of the gale force winds we get up here in the Rockies.
The chain / cable cross bracing needs to be in place and maintained until all of the lateral sheathing or metal is up. Sounds like they didn't have it all in place.
Correct, well drained dirt around the post is usually a better plan than concrete around post that can trap moisture and bacteria rot. You definitely want concrete underneath the posts though, to keep them from settling and throwing the building out of square. Thanks for the input!
For most people, the cheapest method of protection for posts is the Post Protector sleeve or even just wood if they are in highly drained soil, but with gutters in our area (snow areas) we always recommend adding snow bars to keep sliding ice from tearing off the gutters as well. Thanks for the input!
I've only used #3... I use 3" screws drilled in half way at various levels around the base of the 4x4. The screws seal in the cement for uplift protection. Glad I ran across your video....
Great video. I use cored block piers or charred and tarred in ground on a cement cookie. Do keep in mind masonry below grade can become water logged if it can't dry out. So soil conditions play a big factor in in choice of a foundation.
Absolutely, always consider soil conidtions, but thankfully Perma-Columns are pre-formed, pre-dried at 10,000 PSI rating. Good stuff!
We used treated poles and painted on roofing tar on bottoms and up a foot over concrete slab.
i toss a bag of sakrete in the bottom of the hole and stand the post on it and pack stone and dirt around it tight. been doing it that way for 30+ years. i have also coated the bottom of the post with roofing tar below grade but that adds to the cost and time.
Roofing tar is excellent...
I am on my second ploe barn type shop. And also apply 2 coats of roofing cement 3' up the post and a generous amount on the ends. Have also done this on a few other applications where I buried a treated 4X6 in the ground. I was curious if others do this. Nice to know. One other thing I do is drill 2 holes around the perimeter of the building through the post and insert rebar in these holes. and they are inbedded in the concrete when I pour the slab for the shop. The rebar goes all the way around the building in every post. Robert
My pole barn was built this way and I was very skeptical when I first saw the builder doing it!
@@francisleonetti1120 Which way? He showed 5 options.
@@chrisallen2005 dig hole, dump bag, level/plumb post, throw dirt in.
I have used a technique where I take an "I" beam which goes into the concrete (with mud hooks) and sticks up about 4' above grade. I drill about 4 holes through the web and then I have the ability to through-bolt wood uprights to the top of the pole barn. In this way there is a firm foundation and no wood touches the dirt. All that is needed is to ensure that the "I" beam is level (done while the concrete is wet).
That's interesting, I have never seen someone use an I-beam that way but it sounds fairly strong!
Sounds very interesting. It's hard to visualize that. A picture would be great.
What keeps the I beam from rusting out where it's imbedded in the concrete? Sounds like an inside out lally column, which are known to rust at the bottom where moisture collects. Concrete never dries out completely
The only issue with that is that the vertical load from the building is being supported by the through bolt connection
I've been thinking about this issue for some time, wanting to get the best residential post frame solution for the cost. The components necessary for rot are food source, oxygen, moisture, and temperature. Rot occurs in untreated posts from +2/-12 inches relative to grade, because this is where the combination of all factors is present.
If you apply a plastic sleeve, it seems important to drill a small hole in the bottom so that accumulated water can escape. Also if you want uplift protection you need drill bolts at multiple sites through the sleeve so that it adheres to the post. At which point there are two ways near the base of the post for water to (over the years) enter/exit. Because the sleeve is not airtight: warm, oxygen-rich air from the surface can make its way down. So while you are separating the post from soil, the conditions may be viable for rot not only near the surface but throughout the length of the buried post.
Would it therefore make sense to air-seal around the top of the post-protector to prevent surface-level air from reaching the bottom of the post?
With the Post Protector sleeves, you have the option to drill weep holes at the bottom or leave it solid. I do know some people like to silicone the top of those sleeves, but with the multi-year tests they have run on those, I don't think you would have any rot issues, silcone or not. Especially seeing as they are encased inside a sealed wall.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Most post sleeves have weep hole in the bottom so that the moisture can drain out.
Wouldn't a weep hole let moisture and dirt *in*, though?
@@confidentlocal8600 A thought process there might be - the weep hole is on the underside of the sleeve, and the sleeve is surrounded by concrete that is resting on a layer of a few inches of gravel. The concrete may have a "resting humidity" but as it becomes saturated the excess water drains down to the gravel due to gravity.
Some moisture to the wood is doable, but if there was some unforeseeable process that caused water to accumulate around the bottom of the sleeve, it might lead to failure more quickly if there was no ability to drain.
Here in Minnesota I'm building a 42x56. I believe I'll be coating the posts with roofing tar, and adding rain gutters to keep most of the rain away from the building.
That's an old school way of keeping the soil from contacting the post. Gutters are always nice to keep water away from the building. Good luck with your project!
Just doing the tar from ground level down? Since rot only happens here. I hear people do diesel and old motor oil mixed as well
Would be great if you could shoot a video of your poleshed, I live in Minnesota as well
Because of soil conditions in my area which include boulders, drilled footings would have been expensive . I went with a poured slab with a thickened edge that with brackets bolted to it and the posts. Made for a perfectly squared and level building and all wood above ground.
Absolutely! In cases where the ground doesn't allow for piers, a traditional slab with the Perma-Column dry-set brackets can be the best way to go!
Is this an area where the ground freezes? I plan on building a pole barn in Vermont but I think this too much ledge where I want to put it. So I was thinking slab-on-grade but I'm not sure if the cement will crack in time
@@MrSprintcat just use 1½" styrofoam under the concrete. You will have no frost heave, therefore very minimal cracking. Also use a vibrator and vibrate the whole floor. I usually vibrate about every 6" in line
What soil conditions? Too rocky?
No 1 is highly recommended. For sure it will last for generations.
I am building a post frame using wet set brackets, but have noticed a problem with this method. Water will pool atop the concrete right at the joint between the concrete and the bracket if there is no flashing to shed the water over the top of the concrete. I have yet to see anyone on UA-cam address this. The 1/4" steel brackets will rust away faster than a pole would rot. I'll be making flashing for mine, and will show it on my channel.
That is an interesting thought! Those brackets are pretty thick steel and I have seen some people "float them up so that only the bottom would be possibly touched by the concrete and slope it away and I have also seen people bury those brackets partially into the poured floor. Your best bet to install them correctly would be to contact Perma-Column themselves and see what they recommend. Would be interested to see your flashing solution. Thanks for stopping by!
The brackets are inside the structure and powder coated. How is corrosion an issue?
@@christopherhaak9824 The brackets are not inside the structure. They are on top of the concrete pads which are clearly visible from the exterior, and powder coating does not make them impervious to water. Several had rust on them from sitting outside a few weeks.
@@PlanetMojo the brackets are interior to the external purlins and outer surface skin. So, they are inside the structure unless you build without walls. The brackets don't rust, the rebar connections might, they aren't powder coated.
@@christopherhaak9824 That is incorrect. They are directly exposed to the elements, and can be seen from the outside of the building. Water goes down the side of the building to the top of the piers and goes directly onto the tops of the piers and back to the brackets. Powder coating will deter rust for awhile, but it is not rustproofing. I can make a video that shows it clearly if you like?
The best option is a 8" sonotube with a big base of 24" at the bottom with 3 bended steel rod in it and on the top sturdy wall braket! The concrete end about a feet and a half from the ground.
Sounds pretty good! There is definitely a few different ways of doing foundations for post frame.
That would be the most expensive by far. Its no trick to over-build something. The real trick is to not over-build and not under-build. That way you don't waste materials and money.
If my costumer can't pay me to do it the best way, I pass away! When I build something, I want to see what we've build it straight for multiple decade.
We’re getting the 1st one permanent column. Great idea compared to the old days.
Good call! Never have to worry about any issues down the road with your posts!
I've put the posts in square steel tube. And bolt it 2' inside the tube. The posts has 2 L brackets to site the posts to height you need or want. But fill the tube to with gravel to the height want this will help with water and weights on the roof for different type of weather. Most people dont do this because of the cost and time . Even drilling the holes
That's an interesting method and sounds durable if the tube is rated for that weight. Thanks for the idea!
I got talked into doing the pole barn building method once on a 30 x 40 shop. Never again. I dont see the benefit unless it's just an open 3 sided shed or something. It turned into a hassle. You still need to purchase about the same number of 2 x 6 studs and lumber, but now you have wood posts in the ground. My upcoming build and all future builds will be a slab and walls built like a house. Easier to frame up and insulate, everything fits and costs about the same.
I hear you on that and I have encouraged people to build traditional stick-built in certain cases, it all depends on what your plans are. That being said, three of these methods eliminate ground to wood contact and Perma-Column offers a dry-set bracket that you can build off of a traditional poured footer or basement wall as well. It's always good to do your research and figure out what works best with both price and building process before committing to it. There are many different way to get the job done! Best of luck with your upcoming build!
You just expanded my mind.
Excellent visuals
Thank you! I appreciate that!
perma-columns ALL THE WAY! keeps the wood completely out of the dirt. easy to set, very easy to replace the post if it gets damaged. the posts DONT have to be treated ( cheaper ) AND the way the columns are built by using 3 boards nailed and glued together are way stronger than 1 single post. its a no-brainer if you want the building to LAST! we put up a 40x80 barn and LOVE them!
They are a great product and we use them often!
Great video! Most of the rot on the poles we have seen is starting at ground level to about 18 inches down. What we have done is to coat the poles with roofing tar but we go one step further. We wrap the pole with Ice and Water Shield roofing protection starting at about 6 inches above the ground down the pole the width of the wrap. It basically is a barrier from the ground to the pole and is a really cheap and great option.
We actually looked at a pole barn we built 20 years back that was damaged in a storm and the poles we did with this method were still in new condition so I would expect them to last my lifetime and my kids lifetime.
That would be a similar principle to the Post Protectors (option #4) but we have found the Post Protectors to be very quick and easy to install while maintaining a full separation of wood from ground contact. They also make a grade board protector to keep the grade board from contacting the dirt. Thanks for the info!
Wet set brackets is the best way
Very informative. Thanks!
Thank you for viewing!
I got the link from your description Post Protector I will order some
What would you suggest for a really tiny pole barn? I'm making a lean-to shed thats going to be about 8x12. I want to build it like a pole barn, so I can add a cement slab later. It'll be used as a garden shed (garden and lawn tools, lawn mowers, etc)
Good question. If your budget allows, I would definitely suggest going with one of the Perma-Column options as they are permanent and will never have an issue with rot in the future. But since it is a garden shed, if you don't want to spend as much, you can always go with the Post Protector sleeve or a well treated post. It all depends on how permanent you want to make the building and how good your ground drainage is in your yard. If it is all sand and drains super well, you can get by with a treated post for a garden shed just fine.
@UCEeRl9TZVCiUXgYUXNyMoHA Deck post brackets may/may not work, I would check with the manufacturer to see if they are designed to hold that load laterally, but I wouldn't see why you couldn't find a bracket that works. You don't need to use treated 4x4 if they will never make water/ground contact, but if they are close and may have that in contact, I would for precaution.
Have you ever heard of using 2 heavy coats of Liquid Rubber foundation sealant on the base of the post, when using the last method #5?
We have heard of many different liquid applied methods that people have tried, but the best option would be to have a solid separation from the soil like Post Protectors or Concrete Perma-Column methods. Rubber coating may help, but if moisture and rot work it's way through, it could actually speed up the decay by "trapping" moisture in the post.
I’d only consider the first option.
It's a solid option and very similar to option 2!
Question: Can you combine building a pole barn construction but pier & beam base? I have researched without success. We want to build a 24x24 2 story cabin. The best property view would be about 3’ off the ground to clear the view from a nearby property fence. Hope this makes sense. Thank you!
Absolutely, as long as your piers are rated for the weight/shear...etc., you could bracket off the Sturdi-Wall bracket showed in this video and build from that.
I have a couple questions.
On the third example, can the concrete be poured with an above ground casing so the concrete is above where water could get in? Wouldnt that prevent any rot at all?
Also, in the last example, does it need rebarb in the base of it? And then, is it just back filled with same dirt or does it need to be something else added in?
The third option is not one we would recommend, but if you have to use that for code reasons or you just really want to, I would make sure that concrete comes up and is sealed as best as possible to prevent bacteria/moisture from working it's way between the post and concrete. That is the flaw in that design, the concrete tends to trap moisture and bacteria against the post causing rot. On the final example, that doesn't need rebar, it can be poured at the width of the hole and 10-12" deep for a solid footing on most barns. And yes, as long as the soil is good draining type, it can be used to backfill around the post, which will allow water to drain away from the post rather than trapping it. Good questions!
I dont see how option 3 is bad, if the post will shrink or expand then won't they all do that??
Great question! The first two options won't shrink or expand as they are full concrete bases. The 4th option (Post Protector) doesn't matter if it leaves gaps as it still won't' come in contact with the soil (aka wood eating microbes) The final option won't matter if it shrinks or expands because it is surrounded by drainable fill that water will run away from. The danger of the third option is that the concrete around the post creates a "well" that holds dirt and water against the post if not installed correctly. Just a heads up for folks planning on using that method, you have to watch for rot issues.
I'll take perma column all day long.
no screw pile?
Not for the large post frame buildings we are building. That product looks pretty interesting for decks and small sheds, but I haven't seen a largely available helical pile method for large post frame buildings yet. Do you have a supplier you know of that provides that service for post frame buildings?
Pretty sure to get a regular fixed fanny may freddy mac loan, you need no wood to ground contact. So we are going with option 1
Not sure on the loan requirements, but it is always a good idea to separate wood from ground contact with one method or another. Good luck with your project!
In an attempt to cob job/add protection to a wood pole... Wondering if a person could coat a pole in that liquid plastic stuff that you put on concrete backer board before tiling in a shower? Probably not adhere?
I would probably stick with solutions that are specifically built for a post frame building to make sure it worked long term. Shower coating isn't designed for being below grade.
Sweet information
I would think "racking" would be a significant issue with Methods 1 and 2. Use lots of Cross-Bracing!!
Cross bracing is key, especially before the metal sheathing goes on to help brace the structure.
What about using treated poles 25 ft. tall with a 6" top. How would you install round treated poles? As opposed to square treated structural lumber.
Good question! We never use round posts as they are much harder to get the connections we want for a good post frame building. Your best bet is to find a way to protect the post from rotting by coating it possibly, but round posts and tar coating is pretty old school. If you have the option, go with treated square lumber.
Are they hand tamping the posts set with dirt around them?
You can hand tamp those, grade with machines..etc, but yes, they need to be set prior to concrete so there are no air pockets from the settling.
#1 and #2 provide no moment connection - these shouldn't be used (pinned conditions). Simpson has a moment base that would work though.
Not quite sure what you are referring to on that, but I would love to see your suggestion for the product from Simpson. I can assure you that Perma-Column is more than enough strength on a post frame building and it has been tested quite a bit.
@@MilmarBuildings I'm sure they are strong for gravity loads. But laterally pole barns are relying on a cantilevered columns that transfers lateral loads to the foundation by a fixed connection at the base (typically wood posts embedded into concrete). While your concrete itself is just fine, those two connections are just bolting the wood post to the base plate with two small bolts - there is no fixity in that connection - therefore the lateral load doesn't get into the foundation. So unless you have bracing above in the structure you wouldn't have a lateral force resisting system in place. The simpson product is new but it's called a MPBZ post base.
@@tonystenlund2899 I actually have looked into the MPBZ brackets some, and while they seem very suited to a free-standing pergola or porch structure, the Perma-Column is better for a post frame building that is braced not only by the lumber framework, but mostly by the metal skin itself with literally thousands of screw connections which "locks" a post frame building into place very strongly. Also, I don't know if you have had hands-on experience with the Perma-Column posts, but they have embeded rebar down into that 60" concrete column and the base is very thick metal that cups around the base of the post and is through-bolted, so having any twisting is all but impossible once it is installed. I love seeing new products though and if they work better, I am all ears!
@@MilmarBuildings thin metal doesn't have diagram capacity that's why PEMB's have steel cables. I am familiar with the perma columns - I'm not questioning its capacity. It's the connection of the wood to the plate that I'm questioning. Thanks for the replies and good luck.
@@tonystenlund2899 I appreciate the input, you obviously have experience in engineering and I always like to learn!
Have Existing Pull Barn (built mid 1990's - I believe 1997 based on permits) with 10 foot single sliding door. Pole Barn is a 40X40. I would like to add an additional sliding door (same size) directly opposite this door. This will aid in pulling in and pulling out trailers, popup campers, etc. Not to mention provide good cross ventilation. I believe, from looking things over, one 4X6 structure pole will be removed and a new one slid over like 2 feet. A like cross board (from memory 2X12) put in place overhead etc (Similar to other door). The question is I have a EarthQuake post hole Digger (2 person) that can dig a 10 inch hole about 50 inches. I also have a 8 inch auger bit similar size. Is that wide and deep enough (8 or 10inch) or should I rent larger equipment for this one hole dig? I was planning on a concrete around pole approach for this single pole. I am not certain if they make smaller pads then 14 inch. (What I see at local hardware store).
Our standard approach would be to use a 6x6 post instead of 4x6 and auger that hole 18" wide and 4' deep (for our local frost levels in Indiana) I also would suggest you pack around that with drainable gravel rather than concrete to keep the pole from rotting, but if you use concrete, be careful to slope it away and seal up the top to keep water/dirt from making it into there. Or get a Post Protector sleeve on that post prior to pouring concrete around it. Best of luck!
@@MilmarBuildings - Only my corners are 6X6 in the building. The current sliding door is utilizing only 4X6s and cross 2 X12's. This pole barn was a kit. The to be removed post is not a tall post (~12 ft total - 4 below grade plus 8ft above) but I was going to get one to tie to the end roof truss top (~20ft including below grade). We probably have similar soils as Fort Wayne is about 50-60 miles to the west of me. Soil is Dark Heavy Clay. The soil is supposed to be some of the worse in the nation to dig I am told by the farmers all around me. Pardon my ignorance. wouldn't the large hole (18") allow the pole to possible move more? Is that desired? Also would a 4X6 then suggest typically a smaller hole? If 18" is needed I probably just do a couple side by side holes with the 8 inch auger and the post hole digger and just dig out the opening difference by hand, if its necessary. I can do stone but I had concern about stability. Thanks for the suggestions!
@@cmgray74 I hear you. Typically the larger hole is needed for a larger footer and to pack enough drainable soil/gravel around the post, but in your case, if it is not as much a load bearing post, you may be able to get away with a smaller hole, my only concern would be that if you can't get a large enough footer under the post, it may tend to sink if it doesn't have a good place to rest.
Between the five, which one is sturdiest against earthquakes versus flood
That is a great question! Probably depends on depth of placement, footer, soil type...etc., but flooding would definitely be better to have a no-wood-to-ground contact for minor flooding and high water tables. Earthquakes are a whole different ballgame. Thankfully, in our building area in the Midwest, we have very few (and very small) earthquakes compared to the West Coast and other areas of the world.
Is it ok to pour concrete around the post protector sleeve? ... So, you'd have a first pour of concrete for the footing at the bottom, 6 inches maybe, then place the post, then pour around the post maybe just a couple of feet up. Would that be more secure than just having dirt around it?
You could do that and the sleeve will keep the concrete from touching the post or trapping sediment, but if you want the ability for the weep holes on the sleeve to work, you would have to leave a space near the bottom to allow water to escape, possibly with a layer of open grade gravel.
I'm looking at doing option #3 for a cheap style pole barn (24x12) that I want to use a a garage/workshop with a dirt floor for maybe 2-4 years. Humidity is under 30% year round with only 4 inches of rain a year. Any reasons to spend more going for option 1 or 2?
If you are looking for cost efficiency, I would go with option 4. You can buy Post Protectors through Home Depot and surrounding a treated wood post with concrete like option 3 is usually not a great plan for longevity. We almost exclusively use option 2 and 4 currrently, and only use option 5 when someone is building a barn that they don't care if the foundation is fully intact in 40-50 years.
I think this is cool if the prices where with them would help a lot 100 bracket the way to go but not cheap.
Absolutely, costs on everything is pretty high right now, but if you want to keep your posts out of the ground, it is worth the investment. The Post Protector sleeves are a more affordable and easy to install option to separate your post from the ground as well! Home Depot carries them as well.
Real simple. Its called liquid rubber. Apply several coats of that stuff and it will last forever and a day. Will never rot. Cheap, simple, easy and non toxic.
Youre welcome.
Hey! We have definitely heard of this method, we prefer complete separation and the speed of install of Post Protectors or Perma-Column. Thanks for sharing that option!
I have a lot of billboard vinyl material. Could I not use stainless staples and wrap the pole with this material?
We usually wouldn't recommend that as dirt and water could still potentially work it's way through and degrade that vinyl over time. More peace of mind with using a product that is built for the long run. 👍
Found this very informative. Do you have any videos that outline which post option is best depending on soil type?
Not at this time, but any time you are dealing with less than perfect sandy conditions, we would recommend going with either Post Protectors or Perma-Columns to keep the post from touching the soil. Or even with sand, it just brings peace of mind about your foundation.
Good video I'm planning a log pavilion,going to use pine logs ,about 10 to 12 inch in diameter,any suggestions on how to place the logs on the concrete footer, pavilion will be 20'x20' gravel base and stone pavers ,reason will cost way too much to pour concrete and cannot get to job site with a mixer truck , thanks
That's a good question, I would definitely use some form of concrete footer if you can, there are pre-formed footer pads you can buy to set those into the ground. Best bet is to ask a local builder in your area to make sure it meets code and will last.
In option 4, instead of the plastic sleeve can i paint on the treated 4x4 with like a tar or something that bonds to it as it cures creating that barrier between soil and wood? I dont know if theres a product out there that is specifically used for this
You could, but having a permanent, non-permeable heavy duty HDPE sleeve is going to do the job better than a coating that may wear away with time or allow bacteria to eat it's way through. We always recommend going with the safer method and Post Protector offers a 4x4 sleeve as well from Home Depot!
For building green/cheap in climate zone 3 (mixed humid), how would you detail the floor/wall connection using option 4? Wet set brackets would involve thermal bridging so I would prefer to avoid that.
Hello there! Sorry I didn't see your comment sooner! If you wanted to use Post Protector sleeves, you can build that exactly the same way as a traditional post frame building with grade board set right through the sleeve and concrete floor poured up to grade board and around the post/sleeve. Post Protector also offers a product that covers the grade board and keeps it from touching soil, to extend the life of the grade board. Hope that answers your question!
@@MilmarBuildings It does, thank you very much!
You forgot one. Installing a concrete donut with gravel between the post and the concrete for drainage. Than installing gravel around the posts compacted in lifts,
We were trying to cover the most used options, but you are correct, there are many variations on how to set a post! That one I haven't heard of, but it sounds interesting! Not sure how the concrete "donut" would work. Would you have that preformed or poured in place? And how would you compact the gravel in lifts, with a small tamper? Thanks for the input!
@@MilmarBuildings The donut is a precast round concrete pad dropped in the hole. Takes the place of dropping a bag of sackrete in the hole. The gravel would have to be tamped with a pole like the Japanese use to compact soil. The thing is with gravel the more a pole wiggles the tighter the gravel gets.
@@gary24752 Got it, makes sense!
What about dry set brackets on a concrete slab? That eliminates post to ground contact.
Correct, that is another great option and a variation on the Perma-Column Wet-Set bracket shown as option 1. Same bracket made by them, but instead of a wet-set rebar, you can mount that with bolts to a standard foundation wall that is already cured. We have used that method on occasion.
I'm building a small lumber storage building with cantilevered roof & 1 row of poles I have 5) 12' 6x6 white cedar posts
I'm thinking about wrapping the bottoms with "Grace" / ice & water type roofing membrane, my only fear is will this method seal the posts too well and cause dry rot or a similar type problem.
I have heard of people wrapping posts with various materials. The biggest danger on that is that when water works it way through the top or sides, the wrap can effectively "trap" the water next to the post and cause it to decay even faster. If you were very careful it might work, but I would probably leave the roofing materials on the roof and stick with something designed for in-ground use if possible.
@@MilmarBuildings thanks for the answer
@@billystray7007 any time!
Just paint roofing tare on pressure treated post and fill with concrete cheap and works good .
That is an option that some people have used, especially in the past, but long term studies on buildings have shown it is better to go with a full barrier system like Post Protectors, or concrete system like Perma-Column. Plus, you don't have to mess around with sticky tar. 👍
Can you pour a pier for wet set brackets without a sonotube?
Yes, some builders use a drilled hole for that, or a partial tube at the top if the top of the hole is collapsing. You can also place those into poured footer walls that are in forms.
ever used a closed cell foam around the post as a protectant?
Not on post bases, not sure how that would hold up under grade line.
If using #1, what should be the min diameter of the hole?
18" is the typical post hole size drilled.
What about Green Post? I don't see these listed here.
That is a similar option to Post Protector sleeves, there are several sleeve/wrap options out there, we like the Post Protector sleeve option and have added their grade board sleeve as well now!
can you show wall construction that will support a second floor
Generally adding a second floor to a typical post frame building doesn't change these foundations. Sometimes you need bigger footer pad underneath the post, but generally that is all, if anything.
You simply tie your floor joist system directly into your posts and you are good to go!
What are your thoughts about using cedar rather that pressure treated posts?
Cedar is quite expensive, especially now, so we typically reserve that for porch post upgrades that will be visible after construction. For an upgraded foundation, Perma-Columns or Post Protector sleeves with laminated columns makes more sense.
Is it possible to replace poles that have been compromised by weather?
It is possible, though not easy. Sometimes, if the building is in bad enough shape, it is actually cheaper to demo the whole thing and build new, but that all depends on condition of the steel and posts together.
With the post protection options, do you still pour concrete around the post like in option 3?
No, typically we back-fill with the native base or gravel around those. While you could pour concrete, it isn't necessary. It is more important to get a solid concrete base UNDER the post so that you don't have any settling and the built in uplift measures on the Post Protector keep that from shifting upwards. Side to side movement isn't a problem once it is back-filled and framed in.
What is the typical depth and width of the concrete in option 1? If the answer is location specific I am in lower Michigan.
Typically we would use an 18" auger for that hole and fill it with concrete. In lower Michigan for typical poles, they sometimes require 24", but with a solid concrete pier like that, for most buildings, 18" would sufficient.
They're the most expensive out there but the best in the business is Morton Buildings they have the best lowers which aren't even pictured in this video because they're 10 times more advanced than any of the five you did picture
Hey Mike, thanks for the input! This video was made to show the most commonly used foundations, we didn't exclude Morton's foundation system intentionally seeing as the PermaColumn is very similar already with full concrete base, metal plate connectors and uplift protection. Morton does have an easier way to adjust the post heights up and down prior to concrete, but if you laser your post holes, you can achieve the same goal. It's great to see post frame companies like Morton innovate advancements in how we build longer lasting buildings and we are working on our own "raising the bar" standards as well.
What is the life expectancy of the posts
Great question and totally dependent on your soil type, moisture...etc. In ideal conditions the treated posts we use are supposed to last 50+ years, but if those are put in heavy, wet conditions, that can can advance rot much faster which is why we recommend using either Post Protector sleeves or Perma-Columns in any regularly-wet soil that doesn't have excellent drainage. That being said, for some purposes, a well-treated post is the most economical option and if used right, can last a very long time, but for any residence or finished shop space, we would recommend upgrading to the more protected options if at all possible.
I am a few weeks away from building a pole barn house/garage. What do you think about using a gravel base, Post Protectors, and than filled around with concrete? Better uplift resistance than just Post Protectors.
If you have the post protector to separate the concrete from the post, that would definitely be a good plan! I would recommend putting some form of footing underneath the post in the form of a round pre-fromed pad or pour concrete 10" thick in the bottom of the holes and let it dry before setting your posts. Another option for uplift protection is to attach a wood block horizontally to each post towards the base of the post to keep it from pulling up. Best of luck with your project!
@@MilmarBuildings . Wouldn't attaching the wood block to the base of the pole open up holes for water to get in our is that ok since it's at the bottom like that?
@@manfrummt It could, but in addition to it being far enough below grade to not have the oxygen to rot, you can seal those holes from the wood blocks by dabbing some sealant on before bolting in the block and you also have the option to open weep holes at the bottom of the post protector to allow any water that gets inside to drain out.
@@jackmcdonnell4876 .. Good thinking. Thank you. Now to find a sleeve for an 8" round post.
What do you backfill the post protector option with?
Usually, you want to make sure a plain treated post has good drainable fill around it to keep it from rotting, but with the post protector sleeve, you can pack it even with clay or wetter fill or even concrete as it keeps the post from touching any of the backfill! Pretty handy!
My wife and I are planning to start building a post frame house in the next couple of months. We are going to be in North/Central Idaho. Cost is of course going to be a huge factor, that is why we plan to build the structure ourselves. Does your company's range extend to Idaho? We already have come up with our desired dimensions and a basic floor plan. How would I go about seeking a materials estimate?
Hello Vaughn, I sure wish we could build in Idaho, that is some beautiful country! Unfortunately, we only are able to service our local area in the Midwest, mainly Indiana and southern Michigan. We also don't have our own supply yard and source our materials from several local suppliers. Best of luck with your project and you may want to check out www.nfba.org to see if you have a closer builder/supplier that could help you out!
Beware no continuous footing. Warm walls bugs and mice will love you
Perfect
to add on to a house a extra room should i go with the first one to make sure it wont move ?
Either of the first two options are the best for a house application if the budget allows. Check out Perma-Columns website to see what they have to offer! 👍
I do #1.
Great option to choose!
simpson strong tie MPBZ is halfway embedded in concrete to provide latteral strength and post is not touching concrete so will last very long. your first 2 methods provide hardly any lateral strength and require knee braces or other supports.
Interesting product, looked it up and it looks great! More suited for pergolas and freestanding structures rather than post frame looks like. The Perma-Column options listed here don't require knee bracing as the building itself and the metal is the brace and through-bolts are used, plus they have a much deeper embedment of the brackets than the MPBZ, but I can see where that would be better for use of free-standing structures, porches, pergolas...etc. Thanks for the tip!
I used option 2. I think it will last a good while.
Yes sir! Those Perma-Columns should be around long after you or I would be! 10,000 PSI concrete isn't going to rot any time soon!
8inX8in post covered in tar. Covered in any type of plastic sheeting. Shrink wrap.
We have heard of some folks using that method or a part of that, but currently we don't offer that option as it isn't as practical for the way we build. Sounds like it could work!
🇺🇸Old school.
The tar 😀😊👍
Happy building 👍🇺🇸
If you went with the last option, and the wood under the ground eventually started to rot, is there a way to repair it? Could you dig around it and encase it with concrete at that time, like in the third option?
There is a few ways to repair it. Either sister a new post next to it and transfer the load that way or a more simple and less messy way would be to put a metal repair sleeve like Strongway Systems offers. I wouldn't recommend just pouring concrete around it if the rot is already set in.
Or go with option one shown where you cut off above the rot portion and stick on a bracket, then pour concrete into the hole up to the bottom of the bracket and let set. Then again you need to have the rot to be low enough for the base of the bracket itself to sit level with the floor for this option, if the rot goes higher than that then the Strongway sleeve system is the best option to go with when the rot goes up high.
👍
For the last 4 examples, what fill do you use to cover the holes?
Fill around the posts is usually the native soil/fill that was drilled out before setting the post, especially in our local area in the midwest where a lot of the dirt is sandy and has good drainage. If you are concerned about post rot with ground contact, the Post Protector or the Perma-Column options are the best choices to go with.
the best method is to set a five foot long heavy gage galvanized angle iron into the concrete, with the wood post already bolted to the angle iron...the angle iron has a couple bolts through it at its bottom keeping it in the concrete... this is not going anywhere...
I haven't heard of that particular method before, but it sounds solid, just may be a bit harder to install than some of these methods. PermaColumns are very similar in that they have rebar running down into the concrete and those super heavy duty metal brackets that get through-bolted through the post. Thanks for the input!
for option #1 how to level the height
You pour the concrete in the hole and then set the bracket on top while it is still wet, but dry enough to hold the bracket level with a string line. Great question!
Watch "How to Build a Garage #1 - Layout and Concrete Piers" on UA-cam
ua-cam.com/video/fVwUl4cm8fQ/v-deo.html
A Water level, just simple clear hose, no air bubbles, works great. Lasers are great, if you want to buy or borrow one also
If you do not have any kind of level measuring device, no worries, you can always arrange the level by the height of the pole.
Helical Pile?
Those are definitely interesting and may be become more standard for post frame buildings in the future, but so far, they are still a bit cost-prohibitive and have to be made fairly beefy to hold up a large post frame building. We haven't used those as of now, but will keep an eye on them for the future for sure as they become more mainstream.
@@MilmarBuildings any idea what the cost differential is between the standard pilings you’ve described and the helical?
@@cbmarchi I do not as I have never had pricing for the Helical. That being said, we figure around $100-$150 in extra material and labor for the Perma-Column options
@@jackmcdonnell4876 thanks Jack. Trying to figure out what the best approach will be for a project on a budget. The site is in a flood plain -thinking helical piles could work. But maybe so could conventional piles. Trying to get an idea of the costs and spans to ballpark whats feasible
You missed one more method, post in a packed dirt hole! Lol
7
Some people get carried away with this stuff. People are putting concrete around fence post. Really?🍺😷
True, you can go overboard. I wouldn't recommend most of these for fence posts, but the Post Protector sleeves made for fence posts are handy and keep the base of your posts looking great!
These options are so obsolete screw piles are the best option no rot and engineered for vertical loading and uplift loading
Nice overview. I like your options and explanations, but I have to tell you: "uplift ribs" and uplift brackets just make you lose credibility. Seriously! There was NEVER a fence post, sign post, power pole, pier, bridge support, or post frame building pole since man has walked the earth that lifted up out of the hole. Sorry to be so blunt, but the forces reacting upon the post would have to pull perfectly vertical to even remotely make that an issue. This issue bothers me because so many supposedly (engineers, building officials) reasonable people think they need this..
OK, so I vented. Keep up the good work. I get it. It is easier to offer these than convince smart people that they have a dumb idea.
The uplift brackets are required by most counties/townships where we work, so there isn't much option for us to not include those. I think the bigger issue is not that the building would actually "lift" out of the hole, but that with frost heave and earth movement, that the posts could shift and cause framing or metal issues, even with a small movement. The uplift brackets are to help give the compacted fill a way to resist that movement somewhat. Thanks for your input, always looking for better ways to build!
All bad ideas. Don't be cheap pour a solid continuous footing at least 4 inches above finish grade never regret it. Build your pole shed on top of footing. Stops rodents. Easy to scoop manure with loader. .... ect.
You certainly can pour a full footer, but some of the appeal of a post frame building certainly comes from the simplicity of setting posts directly and I would argue that some of these options are just as strong and easier in certain cases than pouring a traditional footer. There is also Perma-Column brackets to mount posts to full footer walls, which we have done before. Thanks for the input!
People if you have any brains at all, don’t put wood into the ground, pour concrete up past grade and do it the best way, simple,,,,bag mix makes it so you can do it without excess minimum load fees of 100-200. Dollars from your concrete supplier, hand mix it or spend 200. And buy electric mixer and have at it, you won’t be sorry, better yet if your kids get the house they won’t have to rebuild when they are 60, tnt concrete …
Thanks for the input! Concrete is definitely the most bulletproof method, which is why the Perma-Column concrete columns or pouring concrete all the way up and setting a wet-set or dry-set bracket is the best for keeping rot away from the posts. The Post Protector sleeves are also a nice option to have for cost and speed of install on some buildings.
You’re nuts if you think that today’s treated lumber will last 50 years in the ground.
We have definitely heard that from people and it is the reason we always recommend separating wood from ground contact. Also, good idea to check your treating ratings for wood you are planning to make contact with the ground and make sure your drainage is properly set. Thanks for the input!
I just don't think that info is going to be needed
Hey, it's not for everyone, but for people looking for post frame foundation options, it's a good start! Thanks for the input!
Hate intros
Fair enough! We always try to do our best on videos, but learn more every time! Thanks for the input.
Is the last option just backfilled with dirt? How many 60 lbs bags of concrete you think? Two? At the bottom
Hey Ronnie, the last option is filled in with drainable dirt/sand and/or gravel. You just want to make sure it can be compacted down, but will drain easily to avoid future rot. On the concrete, it depends on how wide your hole is and how thick you want that pad. Hope that helps!
Thanks. Two more questions. What are your thoughts as well, on your posts sitting on rocks you buy at the store, Instead of a concrete pad? For drainage in my soil at the bottom of the posts since it rains a lot here. (saturated soil four feet down).
Also your thoughts on people drilling through the bottom 6 inches of their post parallel with the ground and putting rebar through the bottom of the post and pouring concrete and them saying “ it will prevent the up force of the posts”.! Me personally, how can any wind pull a building so heavy out of the ground? Not enough lift area for the wind to lift like a kite or a wing of an airplane. Why go here many unnecessary steps in my opinion
@@bucsboy78 Hey Ronnie, the post needs to be set on a larger footprint than just the bottom of the post, whether that is a concrete pre-made "cookie" from the store or poured to wider/thicker dimensions in the base of your hole and letting it harden before setting the post. If you have a high water table, I would recommend going with a post protector sleeve around your post or even better, a Perma-Column concrete post, as you won't have to worry about any rot then. On the uplift bracket, I do like having that sometimes as post frame walls can become quite the force in high winds, but instead of drilling through the post and compromising it, I would mount a woodblock or steel L-bracket to the side of the post for that uplift, not rebar through it
Thanks for putting this all in one place! I really like the idea of the plastic sleeve, but what keeps water from collecting between the sleeve and post? We have really wet ground here.
You can leave the sleeves solid so that no water would get in, but honestly, water itself doesn't rot the post, you also need bacteria and warmth, which is why most posts fail right at ground level with the combo of those things. If you have a high water table and are worried, the concrete Perma-Columns are a great option as well.
I used the sleeves. There are holes that the directions have you drill for drainage (optional) . You set the sleeved post in the hole and on your doughnut, fill with gravel past the drilled Holes so water drains out the bottom, then pour concrete.
@@MilmarBuildings why not use a metal pole instead of wood? Would a fence post be stronger than a 4x4 wood post?
@@TheRainHarvester I'm not aware of a metal pole option right now for Post Frame buildings. The Perma-Column is concrete below grade with a 1/4" steel plate bracket that gets bolted through to the wood post above grade and has a longer lifespan than even a concrete basement wall. Also, we never recommend using 4x4 posts for a building, we stick with 6x6 and larger as needed for wider spans. Occasionally we use a 4x6 post for an entry door framing, but for wall supports, 6x6 laminated columns are the way to go.
I live on the top of a hill, when I built my pole barn, excellent drainage. I followed the locals, and dug as deep as I could with a skid steer auger, poured some crushed stone at the base, and then filled in with drainable/compactible dirt fill. I have had zero movement, no rot, no issues so far. (about a decade and a half) my poles were 4 thicknesses of .40 PT 2x6's, stainless nails below ground, steel nails above 4" up. I staggered the PT with KD above ground, 4 different lengths, Prior to applying shiplap pine vertical I lag bolted the posts every 2' (in addition to nails.
That's great that you have such good drainage! I probably would recommend using concrete at the base instead of crushed stone, but it sounds like it is working for you, so that is good! Unfortunately, a lot of our owners have much damper ground, so we have to take more measures to prevent rot, but sounds like you thought your process through!
Does Ground contact lumber buried in the ground work for any type of soil ?
Should have also shown the dry set version along side option 1, or as a stand alone since it is useful for footing wall type foundations for rodent prone areas or a pole barn with crawl space and wood flooring.
For sure! The Sturdi-Wall brackets are nice for adapting post frame to a poured footer wall. Good thought for the next video!
Coat poles with coppertox up to two feet (termite control); Coat end grain with tar (moisture control); Attach pole to a galvalume support on concrete footings 6in above grade. Southern old school method lasts 50 years.
Thanks for the ideas! I think you would save a lot of time with the perma-column option which keeps your wood 16" above grade and saves you all those steps if possible.
50 years? Is that supposed to be a long time?
lol dawg i hope someone reads this, i hired a guy to sink me in 4/ 12 foot poles for my barn this dude sank them 10 inchs in the ground LOL i came out after 48 hours pushed them all over and fried him............ i redid the holes all 36 inchs deep and 2 bags of rete sank them lol........................................................... fyi this pole barn is 10/15 supports really nothing but a tin roof, open all sides
Oh boy! 10" wouldn't pass any building code! Glad you got those sunk deeper before finishing your building!
@@MilmarBuildings it was mind blowing to thank he could get away with that
Dang you sure know how to make it complicated! Why not a PT post set in a few inches of rocks at the bottom for drainage, and THEN poured concrete?
We try to keep it simple, but also up to code. You have to have a concrete pad at the base to keep the post (and building) from settling downward. Having rock or sand around is great for drainage though.
Kinda missed two of the more common options: treated post set into small gravel (pea gravel or river rock) and treated post pounded into the earth.
Correct, sometimes filling around with gravel will help with draining away from the post. Can't say I have ever heard of anybody building a post-frame building by driving 6x6 posts into the ground, that would take some very big equipment and would possibly compromise the post strength, especially with laminated posts. Thanks for the input!
@@MilmarBuildings I'm sorry, to be honest I was looking at this from the context of posts in general, for fencing and whatnot.
@@MuninnMyrkvi No worries! I have definitely driven fence posts in like you mentioned, that is a great method for fence posts, not so much pole barns! :)
The only time pole barn construction makes sense is when the customer
can harvest the trees off his own land at no cost to make the poles from.
OTHERWISE,
A full metal building is cheaper-stronger-faster to erect-easier to modify-longer lasting.
!
Hey there! The posts themselves aren't the largest cost of the buildings we construct. Usually the metal siding and roof cost more. That being said, sometimes it does make more financial sense to go with metal frame buildings, mostly for larger than 80 foot spans or commercial buildings where higher ceiling are needed. Thanks for the input!
Would have been good to also mention the massive difference in lateral strength between the first 3 compared to the last three. More "structural" members are required to prevent "racking" if the pole/post is split between above/below grade.
A local contractor lost an entire 60x80 building using the first method during construction because they framed the building, and installed the metal roofing before doing anything with the wall "girts" and sheathing/metal.
A brief gust of wind grabbed the open roof and the entire building "racked" and collapsed in the one direction. Each post failed in some fashion at the anchors and base of the post. some split the post, some pulled the anchor loose from the concrete... It changed my sequence of construction when building...
Correct, the lateral strength for split-units like Perma-Columns is all in how well it is anchored to the post. Throwing some screws in it won't work, it has to be structural bolted. Having a building rack is a scary thing regardless of the foundation and the best way to avoid that is get the metal on quickly and make sure the temp/permanent bracing is installed correctly. Definitely something to watch out for!
Our builder mentioned this very thing and what they do to create more lateral strength in the posts is stack four treated 2x6's to make the poles instead of a single post then the run carriage bolts through each of them along the length. It has held up extremely well in some of the gale force winds we get up here in the Rockies.
The chain / cable cross bracing needs to be in place and maintained until all of the lateral sheathing or metal is up. Sounds like they didn't have it all in place.
Packed dirt, no concrete, works fine and lasts for 40+ years. Even survived hurricane katrina
Correct, well drained dirt around the post is usually a better plan than concrete around post that can trap moisture and bacteria rot. You definitely want concrete underneath the posts though, to keep them from settling and throwing the building out of square. Thanks for the input!
#1 is the best option. No pole contact with soil, should last the longest.
#1, #2 and #4 have no wood contact to ground, and we agree, it is best to separate that post from ground contact, even if it is treated well!
Put gutters on your shop and install posts with the cheapest method possible. Done
For most people, the cheapest method of protection for posts is the Post Protector sleeve or even just wood if they are in highly drained soil, but with gutters in our area (snow areas) we always recommend adding snow bars to keep sliding ice from tearing off the gutters as well. Thanks for the input!