Fanalysis Lite - A Lookback at Versus Matchups
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- Here Evan, Reti and Jen look back on some of the Star Wars Versus series match ups Evan and Connor have covered in the past and give their thoughts on them today.
We hope you enjoy!
I really wish you guys would cover EU Leia someday. Keep the good content up !
Reti4 - We do need to at some point, you're right.
Personally I'm with Reti. I think Plagueis would win. Obi can be aggressive on certain occasions. But in regards to the magna comparison, that was a droid, whom Kenobi was totally willing to put down. He seems to be more reserved when fighting people. Like granted he bissected Maul, but that was when he was younger and he'd just killed his master. So I disagree that he'd chop Plagueis to bits. If he did land a hit before Plagueis broke out the force powers, i'd see him taking an arm, assuming the fight is won and getting blasted. Not that he still wouldn't be on guard, but I would think the second Plagueis would lose a limb, he'd still be able to rip into him with the force like he did at the circle. Like the only way plagueis wouldn't be a threat is if the hit killed him.
And beyond that I don't think in most matches it would get to that point. I think they'd clash, Plagueis would realize that Kenobi has a solid defense, and then break through with force within the first minute or two.
It's kinda to me like Darth Nihilius. It's a weird character where if a certain thing can't be countered, it's an insta win. So it's weird to me to think kenobi would win, where if Plagueis got even a moment to use the force it would be almost a guaranteed win because we know Obi isn't the best with defense against the force. To do Antoine's thing lol, i think Plagueis would get it 7/10 times. 3 times, kenobi would manage to end the fight by exploiting a flaw or opening. But the rest of the times he couldn't finish the deal before Plagueis went into it with the force.
Really like the discussion! Like it's certainly a lot to think about!
Agreed
Remember when Dooku is fighting Obi and Anakin in ROTS. He gets cornered and realizes they are more than a match for him. Next thing you know, Obi his force chocked and tossed across the room by Dooku with barely any effort.
Same thing will happen here. The moment Plagueis is pressured, Kenobi will be swiftly deal with.
Noel Rose agreed, while Kenobi is my personal favorite Jedi, yeah I know predictable, and definitely see him as the superior Lightsaber duelist, darth plagueis would destroy him with his force abilities.
Quite late to the party but I think it all comes down to the understanding of Kenobi's fighting style and it's the fundamental line between Reti's views and the others'. If Kenobi's total default against someone he doesn't know is pure Soresus (as almost all SW fans end up believing at some point), then the fight is dragged out long enough for Plageuis to bring out the power. If Kenobi's attitude is more Jinn-style Ataru/Djem So to probe and the cause the opposition to attack back and THEN switch to Soresu, then Kenobi wins. It's that first few strikes - Does Kenobi turtle up against people he doesn't know from the very beginning or does he engage enough and then turtle up to make it appear as though he can't handle the return attacks - that makes the difference.
I agree
Personally Jensaarai, I would stick with your original verdict for Malgus vs Vader. But I still understood your reasoning as to why Malgus would win.
Tactical Sharkz awesome comic book cover you have on your profile picture
Traj Cheers!
the best canon comic series
I agree with Jensaaris original Vader vs Malgus conclusion. While I do agree that strength wise they are both in the same tier. One factor I feel was glossed over and probably Vader’s biggest advantage vs Malgus was his force ability not only do I feel he is more powerful but he is smarter in the way he used it. I do agree with the fact that Vader would not overpower Malgus whether by the blade or the force but I do think Vader would be the victor.
Question for Jensaarai1:
Have you ever considered using Nikkos Tyriss in a versus series match?
You gents always work so awesome together. I genuinely get excited when I see a video on any of your individual channels or the fanalysis channel. Keep up the awesome work.
As for the Kenobi vs P fight. You were talking about his inclinations. Personally, I think that he would lead off with force powers, because he's spent like a decade focusing on the force in almost complete solitude, so I can see how he'd just drop the saber at that point almost alltogether. Its much the same reason why Sidious at the time of ROTJ wouldnt use a lightsaber as his first response. I suppose we disagree about his inclinations at that point in time. Earlier, yes he would lead off with a saber, but later on, I dont think so.
Definitely agree with Reti on the Plagueis vs Kenobi
For Bane and Hoth I think you're totally right for POD Bane, but I have a hard time putting DOE Bane losing to Hoth, though I think it might be somewhat on par.
Fanalysis crew,
I entirely understand and respect your opinions, but I think you consistently under sell magnitude in force abilities, and I think its one of the primary advantages Sith have over Jedi. If they start being pressed, they're more than comfortable leveling the building.
Now my specific opinions:
Malgus vs Vader: incredibly close fight, could go either way, but I'd give the advantage to Vader, because he does have a comparable experience level from his time as Anakin Skywalker, and Malgus has shown a slight hole in his force defenses that a force wielder of Vader's caliber might *might* be able to exploit.
Dooku vs Katarn: I originally disagreed, but I came around in time. Dooku would be probably his most difficult fight, but if Katarn can just hold on and weather the Storm, he's just a younger, fitter fighter. He'll last, then he'll beat down his opponent when Dooku's got nothing left
Vader vs Exar Kun: I think the number of people who can handle the full bore Exar Kun can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and they're all top tier Consulars and Sith Lords smart enough to back off, neutralise his own force powers (no mean feat in and of itself) and spam force attacks until he goes down. Vader *could* do that, but he won't.
Dooku vs Maul: sorry Maul, you're just not on the level of someone who spars with and sometimes defeats Mace Windu and Yoda.
Bane vs Hoth: this is I think situational. If Hoth knows what he's in for, and is *extremely* careful, he'll have the definite advantage. He's done this before, he'll do it again, it will just be on a whole new level. However, if he hears of a Sith Lord hiding on Tython or Ambria and heads there alone to deal with it (and we all know that's what he'd do, to try and protect as many people as possible), and runs into Bane in his prime, I think it would go like Yoda vs Palpatine in the senate rotunda. Wins the lightsaber duel (maybe lops off a limb if he's lucky) and out comes the lightning and telekinesis, and he finds out he *just. Doesnt. have it.* and he has to run or die. Because an oft overlooked fact is that when Bane fought Qas'im was not his peak in force powers. Since then, when he lets go of his force powers, you either get out of the way or you prepare for a bad time, unless you're Lsu and can blade dance through it. Speaking of Lsu, I think you under sell her when you say her force barriers are garbage. As is the crux of my point above, no Jedi's barriers were enough in that fight.
Lastly, Kenobi vs Plagueis: Kenobi is the far better duelist, no contest, but I think there is a fundamental error in your conclusion. You argue that Kenobi could keep it pure lightsaber duel until its too late, but the reason Plagueis holds back so much is so that the Jedi don't sense it and come running, but if he's fighting, the Jedi are already here. He's got to make himself scarce as quickly as possible with no survivors. Cue multiple force grips, waves, and lightning far above what Kenobi has ever dealt with before. He's a smear on the ground in moments.
Beg your pardon but Evan explained at 55:10-56:02 that Plagueis holding back on his Force powers is his natural instinct. It's second nature to him at this point, a deeply ingrained behaviour that he's had throughout practically his entire life. You can't just instantly switch off the habits of an entire lifetime.
Wright805 Plagueis is also a deeply cerebral fighter. When he's not enthralled in rage, every move is considered, to the point that he uses battle mind. Plus, if he's fighting a Jedi (which he's never done before), there's no way he doesn't front every thing he's got. In my mind, the possibility that he *might* hold back force powers because he's somehow stupid enough is not nearly enough to give Kenobi the probability advantage.
But didn't Plagueis insta kill his master with no hesitation. When the guys in the video were discussing the Plagueis novel they said they had to reread just to make sure that Tenebrous was dead because it happened so quickly. This doesn't sound like a person that a natural instinct to hesitate. If he did he would have been killed by his master. Furthermore, during the fight with Venemious Plagueis was pondering about if anyone could see the fight. Not a mindset of someone in panic, or hesitate, but someone that doesn't care for the fight at all.
@@mikaelm5367 I know that I'm very late to the party, but it's worth considering that Sidious had never fought a Jedi before his confrontation with Mace and the other masters, and he managed to overwhelm them. I think that Plagueis would probably get the better of Obi Wan one way or another - Dooku did manage to take him out with the force alone in ROTS while dueling Anakin, and I think that Plagueis is probably at least as strong in the force as Dooku, even if he doesn't have as much experience using it in combat.
I think a fair bit of confusion around the Plagueis vs Kenobi fight comes from the undefined circumstances of the fight as set up by Jensaarai and Evan. If it takes place while the Sith are still trying to remain concealed and Plagueis is concerned about being caught and hence holds back, why assume he carries his lightsaber? He doesn't seem to take it out with him, as Sidious doesn't, and doesn't use it against the maladians for example. With no lightsaber to draw on he would have nothing else to do but crush Kenobi with his force abilities and so would win immediately.
If the fight takes place in a scenario where the Sith have been revealed, assuming now that Plagueis has his lightsaber, what reason would Plagueis have to hold back on the force powers? If Kenobi is the only Jedi who knows the truth of Plagueis' identity then Plagueis has every reason to crush Kenobi immediately as he can't risk him escaping. If all the Jedi know then I think it would play out as Reti suggested. Plagueis isn't so incompetent with a blade as to get cut down before he had a chance to realise that Kenobi's defense was impregnable to him, I don't think. Reti's point that Kenobi isn't likely to press the attack immediately against a Sith Lord as obviously powerful as Plagueis in the same way Venamis was willing to is the deciding factor in this scenario, for me anyway.
Given all that I would have to give the nod to Plagueis. It's interesting that Plagueis' chances are actually improved by taking him with the apparent handicap of being disarmed.
Evan explained that at 55:10-56:02. Plagueis would hold back on his Force powers because that's his natural instinct. It's a deeply ingrained habit that he's had throughout practically his entire life. You can't just turn off the habits of an entire lifetime as if you were flipping a light switch.
@@Wright805 But if you listen to what Reti says after you realise why that wouldn't be the case here. And I don't believe either Jen or Evan had a sufficient comeback to that.
You guys are back. Only just discovered this channel yesterday, been binge watching your videos all day. Its good to see you all back together. I do have a question for all of you, including members not present in this video: would you consider taking the star wars questionnaire again? To see if your answers have changed from your original answers?
Reti4 rocking the young Qui-Gon or AOTC Obi-Wan look, barely recognised you, you've got a beard and everything.
Keep up the great work you all. I hope we see some versus matchups soon
Reti saying "I still dont have an outro" is your outro by now. 😁
My main disagreement is when it was said that exar kun is a physical match for Vader. Exar can contend with ulic. He is not his equal in strength. Following that, ulic was at best the equal of anakin skywalker and likely would be slightly weaker. Darth Vader was definitely stronger than anakin and would therefore be several steps ahead of exar in strength
I would love to see a Fanalysis about your favorite Star Wars characters
Looking back on it now, i think you kind of underselling Plagueis, cause yeah Kenobi is much better based on skill and experience but Plagueis is a very conservative, reactive fighter. If anything the magna guard is more antithetical to him because the MG's are like Grevious in a sense. They have to be on the initiative because they have no force defenses. And though kenobi can go on the offense, it's a very (ironically) conservative offense, that's more like a well timed strike than a barrage, don't mention that because of Plagueis' reach advantage, he would have more difficulty to get in close.
A plagueis vs Kenobi fight would look more like one of those samurai movies where the opponents stare down and measure up eachother for long moments because neither of them are a dedicated aggressor at heart. So I don't think Plagueis would be sloppy enough to being outfenced and would have enough wit to realize he can't power through him. And at the same time kenobi doesn't bring enough pressure to overwhelm Plagueis.
Why cut your hair if you are going to censor it Connor?..
@Evannova95 I still want to see you do a Kyle Katarn vs Obi-wan matchup.
Reti has very fine hair. 🤔
Assuming Kenobi can sense Plageius' power, there is no way he'd let the Dark Lord disengage. He'd go on the offensive if only to prevent getting turned into a fine mist by the Sith.
Duku is the rapier/small sword (less on the small sword) of the Star Wars universe.
With Vader vs Kun, you all have made mention that Kun can't really take a hit well, couldn't Vader herd/pound Kun into submission by throwing everything that isn't welded to the ground at Kun like he did against Luke at Cloud City?
Well not really cause exar kun had shown that he can defend against thrown objects the cases where he was hit dramatically with them was surprise from ppl he wasn’t fighting and also what’s stopping him from using the amulet to destroy the object that’s being thrown
Evan, i really think you should look back at your analysis of darth caedus. I think you vastly underrated his force based and dueling abilities, especially considering his combat experience, and level of the opponents he pits himself against. You attribute his use of force based abilities in combat to a "fall back," but i think you could interpret many of them to tactical implementation (like your analysis of him fighting katarn and his use of the speeder as a battlefield object). I think that fight deserves another look, one of the few i strongly disagreed with you conclusions on.
noble combat Its interesting you mention that, because I was actually thinking about this the other day.
After rereading Legacy of the Force a few weeks ago and rewatching the video, I am personally APPALLED with how that breakdown turned out even by the standards of that particular season. There is a lot more I could of said and a lot I could have said differently.
Now, as for possibly changing my verdict......I’m still not sure. Gonna need to think on it some more.
Either way, I think that video deserves a remake.
Would you like to see one?
EvanNova95 Its good to hear you say this. We would love a redo of that video!
EvanNova95 yes. We would all like to see a redo of that video.
I think a remake would be great, because that matchup really deserves more discussion.
WBM Gaming EvanNova has proven time and time again to be the most biased Versus Series makers on UA-cam. It looks like he realizes his bias and is now looking to redeem himself. He’s still a little biased, but he’s coming up to redemption.
I always assumed raw force lighting could and would shorten out Vaders armor. Essentially making him unable to move. Then again...in ROTJ he does power through it to kill Sidious.
I have an idea for a video on Fanalysis: If you were to put yourselves in a versus match, who would you face and where would you tier yourselves?
Dooku and Assajj Ventress vs. Joruus C'Baoth and Luuke Skywalker?
Audial Architect Dooku and Ventress should take this.
I think C'Baoth is stronger than Dooku, but if he works together with Ventress after she dispatches of Luuke...
C'Baoth's beard solos.
I wouldn't be too sure, Dooku has a neat beard, as well.
+Audial Architect Indeed he does. But C'Baoth's beard is on par with Saruman (I mean, C'Baoth is basically SW's answer to Saruman if you think about it).
I would say that the difference between hoth and Raskta Lsu could be compared to Windu and Cin Drallig with hoth being the Windu and Lsu being the Cin of their times.
I still believe that Vader would overcome Malgus by virtue of his greater finesse as a duelist. To me, Malgus always struck me as Orbalisk Darth Bane type duelist with Galen Marek's force abilites: Unleashing the force, but again with a lot less finesse.
Using Luke's battle with Vader in Episode 6 as evidence of his weakness against strength based duelists is a bit tricky; no one can come to a decisive conclusion whether Luke beat Vader of his own skills, or that it was Vader's own confliction that did him in. (personally I feel that it would be best as a mix of both so as to not undermine either character as duelists. Luke I feel is on par with...Early to mid TCW Anakin at this point, Anakin level with the rage boost.) I really don't remember him ever getting into a confrontation with someone of equal or greater strength other than Luke, so forgive me if I'm wrong.
I also question Malgus's use of Force Maelstrom because...well he's only been shown to know it in the Book of Sith, he's never actually used it in active combat( I'd love to see him use it in his future appearances tbh).
Regarding Kenobi vs Plagueis....I cant' really give a decisive verdict either way. Not enough detail on Plaguesis's skills in active combat with another force user are known to us.
I already wrote that long comment about my thoughts on Vader vs Exar Kun on the actual video, but since I haven't read Tales of The Jedi, I'm not the best when it comes to knowing all of Kun's capabilities. I really don't get how twirling the saberstaff like a baton is so godlike.
Anyways, that's just my opinion
*steps down from soapbox*
When it comes to Exar Kun's fighting style, he twirls his saber to off-balance opponents and to bewilder them. When they attack, he will either deflect or parry, and then follow up with a counter. If you misjudge the counter and block it, he will simply deactivate the blade, get past your blade, and reactivate his blade once it passes your guard. If you dodge, he either sets up again or takes an offensive position and starts throwing barrages of whirlwind slashes and all that jazz. It is surprisingly effective. And, he knows other tactics, which would make it a potential fifty-fifty. I don't know if it would work on Vader, but it would be a hell of a fight.
@@austinkersey2445 We need more showings of Trakata in visual mediums--it's such a cool concept for a fighting style. Even just the glimpses of it that we saw in that one Star Wars Visions episode and (technically if you count the in-combat saberstaff blade switching mechanic as a valid example of this) Jedi Fallen Order. Hell a good visual medium of a slightly altered version of Exar Kun's style would be a less sloppy and far more refined version of Cal's attack animations in Fallen Order I think (Strength oriented strikes, switching off and activating extra blades mid combat.)
My issue is less with the actual technique itself, and more that the handle isn't long enough to provide enough room for a dedicated two handed grip, at least how it looked in the art for Tales of The Jedi at least, to generate a decent enough amount of leverage for power strikes. Makes sense given that it is essentially a prototype Saberstaff--it doesn't have all the kinks worked out in the design. What I think would be the ideal design for Exar would have been more in line with the Archaic Saberstaff that Teneb Keb used during the SWTOR Blood of The Empire comic. Slim enough to be good for closer quarters and better protection from being sliced in half, but with the added benefit of getting a decent two handed grip on it if needed--with the dual phase function of his original weapon of course.
@@kylemc2290 I firmly believe that Cal Kestis' blade switching counts as Trakata, as he performed it in-cutscene against Trilla. We'll see how he's evolved in Jedi Survivor.
What are your opinions on the Ahsoka novel particularly the part where Ahsoka purifies the Inquisitor’s lightsaber crystal
Question for the group since Kyle is the same tier as Count Dooku and Jaina is her era's Mace Windu where do you guys rank all the New Jedi Order Masters.
Obi wan is not weak. He does not have a weak force defense. He just applies it differently than more active jedi. His passive force def isnt a wall, its armor.
Think. Yes ventress grabbed him and throttled him, but she didnt crush his traechea. Not for lack of trying. Dooku kicks his face and propels him into a wall. His neck holds, and the wall breaks.
And notice its always something monumental? Hes never been foce shoved by an opponent just to knock him down (except for maul when obi was padawan) if someone goes after him with the force its always thier best hardest hit. And kenobi always walks away from it! Most jedi and sith have a force shield or cocoon, obi wan has force armor. Hes not weak.
A video out on my birthday! YES!
Reti4 - Happy Birthday, I hope you have a great day!
Happy birthday!
Happy birthday
A duel between maul and dooku is similar to the battle between Flint and jogi in black sails. Flint is an aging saber fencer with lots of native ability and formal training for a duel. Joji is a kenjutsu fighter with similar levels of ability and is much younger.
ua-cam.com/video/G_2044t3VtA/v-deo.html
I think you guys are underestimating Maul.
He got his arse kicked by a Padawan name Obi-Wan Kenobi. Yeah, he places a good fight but this Sith Warrior can't even hold a candle when placed against others of higher tier. He was made for one reason; to be an assassin. That's it. The bloke didn't even care for force abilities for Christ sake.
Are you refering to Kenobi? Padawan Kenobi never kicked Mauls ass, LMAO! Maul won the duel until Kenobis plot armour awoke. Maul lost to Kenobi because of Plot convinced stupidity. Kenobi didn't win the duel. And Maul is more than just an assassin, look at his feats in The Clone Wars, where he defeated Kenobi several times, and even landed a force push on him. His managed to hold his own against Sidious, and stalemated with Mace Windu. Maul is a sith.
+Samuel Myth I thinks it more of the case that Dooku is optimized for a contest with Maul. His makashii is a foil to Maul's Juyo and my keeping his dist like normal, lowers the effectiveness of Maul's Teras Kasi. As for TCW Maul, ignoring that crap because I'm using EU TPM Maul in my analysis.
I ain't spoutin' you can't love Maul but even in the lore books, Rebels, and TCW in general, they all place'em in the lower standards. Even Ben Kenobi bested Maul himself despite the age. There's a reason Kenobi survives nearly every sought of pain along the way. Maul's just a blade. He can't even think for himself at the state he is in. Didn't beat Maul's arse? Obi-Wan literally sliced the guy in two pieces! XD "Didn't beat his arse." Nah, feck off. XD
Rob George Dooku definitely beats Maul, but its a lot closer then what these guys have said. Mauls skill with juyo could possibly overwhelm Dooku in the same way Anakin did with Djem So. In the end I see Dooku winning in a close fight. His use of the force and masterful lightsaber skills would grant him the victory. But Maul defo makes him work for it, and after the fight he would be tired and battered.
"I am Reti4 and I still dont have an outro" *cue Evan rolling his eyes dramatically* "good-bye"
Kyle katarn vs cao cen darach. Darth Maul vs Kyle katarn. Antares Draco vs Lucien draay. Anakin Skywalker vs Lucien draay. Antares Draco vs ventress
Before I leave what I hope will be some constructive criticism i just want to say I think this was a good idea for a video and there are a lot benefits to revisiting past content with a critical eye. I do disagree with a number of points raised in the Hoth vs Bane segment just as I disagreed with much of what was stated in the original video but that's not really the point of my criticism. The area I feel this video could have been improved upon was in the variety of opinion. It seemed at times to me like the discussion was limited in certain areas by a unanimous opinion by all present and as a result certain sections came off at least to me as one sided explanations of your opinions instead of actual debate and discussion. To use the Hoth vs Bane part again I feel having Matt or Antoine (or both) present could well have made the conversation feel more balanced given there's a known difference of opinion on the outcome of that versus video as opposed to the original creators of the video and somebody in complete agreement with the conclusion. Obviously differences in schedules and stuff like that can't be easy to work around but I think it would help the balance of the discussion and potentially improve the quality as a whole even if it might have delayed the video. The Obi Wan Kenobi vs Darth Plagueis portion was excellent in my view for that reason. People don't have to agree but the conversation is good for everyone involved and allows us the viewers to really understand where you're all coming from on certain points even if we don't agree. Hope this has been at least a little helpful, still great to see such regular star wars content from this channel.
Please do another one of these :)
This video convinced me that lord hoth would be a good candidate for your role reversal series
Reti4 - He's definitely on the list, he just didn't make the cut the last two episodes.
Fanalysis im glad to hear it.
In my opinion the series has had a great start and has a lot of potential keep up the good work and this is a great video by the way
I personally think that Lord Hoth is just a little too speculative to be used in a VS Video. We never see him in an explicit light saber duel against a relative equal nor do we see him engage someone who's a relative equal. I wish we did, but we just don't have that kind of information.
Regarding Plaegis Vs Kenobi, I'm not quite sure where I stand on that one. On one hand I do know that Kenobi can't compete with Plaegis should the battle come down to the force, but I don't know if Plaegis would break off quickly enough to keep Kenobi from cutting him down.
This may be a bit of a tangent, but I feel a lot of the Rule of Two Sith Lords are either massively overhyped or underestimated, (Zannah being on both ends of the spectrum) but I think that a lot of people latch onto the idea of 'Bane's the Sith'Ari, so he must be this Force God of the Dark Side and Zannah beat him so she must be even more powerful.' And so on and so on.
Well, now that I'm on this tangent, may I request Darth Zannah Vs Darth Plaegis?
Ok time for thoughts (lost the first writeup):
Malgus vs Vader: I understand the assessment in lightsaber combat given your breakdown of Vader, but I disagree on the overall verdict. Vader's superior force power backed with tactical application of tk should make up the diff for the win. To me, Vader's > fp outweighs lighting, and Vader's tactics are ideal for exploiting Malgus's tactical tunnel vision. Either way, this is really close but my money is still on Vader.
Kyle vs Dooku: Not a lot of complaints or other comments here. Did enjoy your clarifications.
Kun vs Vader: Took me a while to realize your evolution in breakdowns in Jensarrai1. Originally, I felt you more focused on the tactics and overall methods, now its a more analytical approach of the mechanics between characters. But yeah, Kun is a massive wildcard few people can really deal with. He is both a sorcerer and a warrior with hax. I do agree with your assessment on the weakness of the saberstaff but the question is who can exploit that weakness? As for Kun slugging it with Vader, idk. Vader's style is based around leveraging his strength but the main diff between Ulic and Vader is that Vader is a cyborg terminator, Ulic isn't. Throw in Kun's fragility and std lighsaber Kun can contend, puts up a solid fight, don't think he take majority. Still agree with orig verdict, but wanted to clarify some things.
Hoth vs Bane: While I support the idea that superior experience+tactics can overcome those with > power, the problem is that Hoth's force power isn't high enough to make this happen (majority of the time). I never thought Hoth had even tier 1.5 fp yet you consider him the Mace Windu of his era (assuming that title meant =/near equal fp)? That force stun feat was against a rank in file Sith master, not a council master. Anyway, my idea is that while I consider Hoth the superior duelist (battlemaster +ton of experience), Bane's power in the force is to much for him. Basically the Kasim fight all over again.
Dooku vs Maul: Wow this is old. My breakdown of Maul has changed a lot. When I look at Maul in physical combat skill round (much like Kun or Grievous) it comes in 2 parts. 1st, can you deal with this his saber technique? 2nd (more tricky part), can you deal with his Teras Kasi techniques? As explained, Dooku can extremely well with both, so yeah, Dooku gets the edge. But, as stated, if both are unarmed, Maul ftw.
Plague vs Kenobi: Oh boy, here we go again. My thoughts changed a lot since then and now they are basically the same as Reti4's. While Kenobi is the better duelist, Plague would realize that and go HAM with force abilities for game. Even if Plague didn't go HAM at first, a 50% Plague has force power comp to Kenobi and would likely make more headway than dueling. Plague realizes this and escalate until Kenobi breaks. Also Evan, you said we should directly compare feats. Plague casually causing planetary weather changes (use that as base for what all out Plague is capable of)>>>Bane>Thon containing Lake Nath energies>Poof saves the world>anything I know Kenobi is capable of. +James Luceno said Palgue has a solid chance of taking TPM Palp who shouldn't be to far in force power to ROTS Palp. Using my own fp chart (for some numerical references), If ROTS Sidious is a 10, TPM probably a 9.5-9, Plague should be a 9-7.5 (lets take average so Palgue fp is 8.75 by this alone), Vader is an 8, Bane is a 7, Windu is a 6, Kenobi is a 4.5-5.0. That doesn't mean this a stomp by any means, but it means unless Kenobi gets highground, RIP.
This was a fun trip down memory lane. Btw, Ive thought of a really good idea for a matchup and would love to hear some thoughts. Kar Vastor vs Lord Nyax. 2 juggernauts, one corrupted by machine, the other by nature.
please do Maul vs Ventress
You guys should play Jedi knight Jedi academy against each other. That would be quite a video. (Movie battles 2 mod would be AMAZING to see considering you guys could play Malgus against Vader in the actual game.) :) hope you see this comment.
Reti4 - Evan and I have played this together before. 'Twas great fun. I'm sure we'll do it again some time with the cameras rolling.
The recent Knights Of The force 2.1 mod is my favourite
That sounds great! Looking forward to it!
I would love it if everybody could realize that darth bane was not a top tier martial artist and duelist.
He never won a lightsaber battle in his life with the only exception being sirack at the sith training temple.
All of his victories were because of his force powers.
That being said, i dont hate bane. I feel that i just have a realistic appreciation of his skill.
I actually am very impressed by him, but he absolutely is overhyped as all but 2 sith really are.
Bane lost his bout with kasiim. He did not win, he got lucky at the end with his last spiteful blow. He never intended to bury kassim, but even if you dont buy that, you cant argue he won the contest.
He fought kasiim everyday for (i think) at least the better part of a year, and still wasnt able to defeat him. One may argue that kasiim threw bane a curve ball with the jar kai tactic, but even so there are alot of martial artists who can handle situations like that, (and worse), and still adapt and overcome.
Bane is severely limited, tactically, in his saber dueling. We see it there, and again on tython when if not for his invulnerable armor he would have been killed quickly.
He lost against the huntress, who didnt have a saber, only a surprise attack bane wasnt prepared for. He lost both duels with zannah in dynasty, one where he didnt have his saber true, but still.
On ambria, zannah took a defensive stance against him, admitted she was unprepared for his power and skill when he was no longer holding back, but unlike bane, she could cope with the unexpected twist.
Bane is stunted badly as a duelist due in part to his lack of experience, part due to his natural proclivity for not handling the unexpected well, and partly due to his tactical habit of constantly approaching every physical problem with a "just hit it harder" mentality. When collecting belia darzus holocron for example, he enters a room full of automaton zombie things that are not a danger to him except when he is in the room with them. So does he do the smart thing and pick them off one at a time, retreating when he gets tired and coming back? Patiently whittling them down while remaining fresh? Does he consider what he might do at all? No. He sets his jaw and just starts hacking and doesnt stop till they are all scrap. While doing this he gives himself a big dose of belias techno virus, but just uses the force to escape any consequence of his rash, wasteful and simple to the point of stupidity yactical decision.
Hes lucky zannah didnt show up with a bunch of jedi in tow before he could rest from all that.
I might be belaboring that point a bit i admit, but still....
Bane is an impressive martial artist, whos skills considering his situation and limitations are very impressive. But as a technical duelist i would never rank him among the best of his era, hes middling at best.
His well earned reputation as one of the deadliest lethal threats stems entirely from his magnitude of power in the force.
A deadly lethal threat to anyone? Yes, absolutely.
A masterful paragon of skill and martial talent? No, not even close.
And thats ok, just dont confuse the two.
Apply the ysalimari test to bane. If he was fighting in a room full of ysalimari would his skills with the blade be truly impressive? Better than some to be sure, (palpatine) but no where near others (dooku, qel droma, kun, mace, obi wan, anakin, plo koon, shak ti, vader, malgus, luke, ashoka, maul, cao cen darach, ect...
I cant believe all three of you think Hoth would beat Bane. The argument that just because Hoth will have seen everything bane can do is heavily flawed. Just because a character has experience with force lightening doesn't mean they can handle sidious lightening, just because someone has experience with TK doesn't mean they can handle grand master Lukes tk, just because someone has experience with Soresu doesn't mean they can handle Obi Wans soresu, magnitude matters a lot. Hoth has absolutely never dealt with anyone as powerful as Bane. even in POD Bane was far more powerful than Lord Kaan who was clearly well above the rest of the brotherhood. fact of the matter is Hoth has nothing that puts him close to bane in terms of power. Kaan, Farfalla and raska lsu anyone we could vaguely scale Hoths power from is way way below Bane.
Bane was so far beyond Kaan that Kaan knew he couldn't beat Bane just by sensing his power, there was no doubt in Kaans mind that he wouldn't beat Bane in a fight.. "Lord Kaan knew he was no match for Bane, either physically or through the power of the Force." Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
He casually tore through Qordis force shield and snapped his neck like he was a youngling. RoT made it clear Farfalla and Raska Lsu would have died in the first few seconds of their fight with Bane had they not been amped by battle meditation. Farfalla only managed to jump out of Banes way and avoid being cut down because of the amp then Raska Lsu only survived Bane s force push because Farfalla was still alive to help shield her from the attack. Despite two of the most powerful jedi in the order focusing on protecting one person from banes attack she still got blasted across the room.
Sure Hoth lead the jedi army but the Jedi aren't lead by the most powerful like the sith. We know Hoth was a great tactician and a skilled fighter even if he wasn't even in the top 10 jedi of his time in terms of power that would be enough for him to lead an army of Jedi.
You say Hoth is way beyond everyone else in his time because of the force stasis feat but this was against an acolyte who hadn't been properly trained. Is that more impressive than Kaan mentally controlling the brotherhood for years ? Is that more impressive than what bane did to Qordis, a guy who was at the very least the forth most powerful member of the brotherhood. casually tearing through Quordis force shield is way more impressive than doing the same to a non fully trained acolyte
You can argue Hoth was more skilled with a blade than Bane because he was a battle master but the argument doesn't amount to much given how he compared to Kasim. Banes defence was described as "impenatrable" against Kas'im who was not only the most skilled duelist in the brotherhood but an absolute master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat, mastering all seven of them in a few years, and spending decades perfecting each and every move and sequence of the seven forms of lightsaber combat. Kas'im had elevated his skill in every single form of lightsaber combat far beyond the level of mastery, yet Bane was beating Kasim in their duel until Kasim exploited the weakness he put in Banes technique an advantage Hoth doesn't have. The only reason Kasim had any advantage at all against Bane was because he purposely put a major weakness in Banes technique until then Kasim was losing badly.
Kasim is clearly a superior duellist to Hoth there is no credible counter argument to that and we know POD Bane > Kasim in a duel is you exclude the weakness kasim gave bane.
Emperordmb made a brilliant counter argument which completely invalidated every edge you gave Hoth, it's one of the top comments on your original Bane vs Hoth video i highly recommend you go read it if this hasn't persuaded you that Bane clearly wins this.
banethesithari Also I don't get why Jensaarai1 now thinks Vader and Bane are inferior to Malgus
Exactly malgus best force feats are lifting a few tonnes of duracrete and charring a guys skin. Bane had feats leagues beyond that with barely a year of training in POD. Bane tore several durasteel doors of their hinges with his bare hands while weakened. Malgus has no strength feats close to that. Vader and bane are way beyond malgus
+banethesithari I agree. I wont get into the argument about Bane vs Hoth as swordsmen but lets go with Evan's assessment of Hoth as a swordsman. Even if he is, they are still quite close in skill level but Bane's power in the force allows him to hammer Hoth's defenses faster than Hoth can out duel him. Bane's force power was considered by Darth Cognuss on pg 724 the greatest she ever felt despite on pg 722 experiencing Thon contain the energies of lake nath (sidenote: that also means Bane's force power>Thon). While Hoth's feat with force stun was impressive, it was against a generic Sith Lord, not a council master. Using that, I guess that Hoth's force power is on par with someone like Kao or Kenobi levels which isn't enough to deal with Bane. The minute Bane starts losing the lightsaber duel, he breaks out force abilities, goes HAM, and gg Hoth.
As for Malgus, I understand why Jensarrai1 changed his opinion due to evolution of argument. He likes to do more of an empirical analysis of the mechanics behind a characters fighting styles looking at logistics. Vader's style is based around leveraging his strength so his effectiveness decreases against opponents with near-equal levels of strength. Which Malgus def has. However, my counter argument is force abilities. While Malgus has lightning, it can be absorbed with a lightsaber. Also, Vader has > levels of force power and his more skilled application of his abilities (mainly force throw) + skill at using the environment to his advantage can milk Malgus's tactical tunnel vision weakness which helps Vader overcome his issues in lightsaber combat giving him a narrow win in my eyes.
Feel free to disagree with my points of course.
Rob George has Cognus met Thon ? regardless as i said i think what Bane did to Quordis is far more impressive than what Hoth did to some featless with who hadn't finished their training and this was Bane in POD when he was nowhere near as powerful as he would become in his prime.
Sure Vader likes to overwhelm people with his strength but his not some Savage Oppress level fighter who only has their strength, Vader is an incredibly skilled duellist who if he wanted to could fall back on his incredibly skill to use other tactics against Malgus in a duel. Vader used a combination of all forms that he adapted to his cybernetics showing he isnt just a one trick pony in a duel. But even if Vader did decide to just overwhelm malgus with strength and nothing else he'd still win. Not only does he have far superior strength feats (tearing of a durasteel door off it's hinges) but he also has far superior durability and endurance. So any contest with malgus and Vader where they are trying to beat each other down is only going to end with Vader winning. Vader hits harder, he can take more of beating and dish those hard hits out for longer. This isnt even including Vader massive edge with the force which you mentioned.
+banethesithari More like used Psychometry to relieve the events of Ambria including Thon+Lake Nath, and encountering Dath Bane (its hard to explain). Found links for copy of these pages. But either way, Bane's force power>Hoth.
Honestly, I was trying to explain how I think Jensarrai1's assessment of Vader is and how its evolved. Like you said, Vader's skill+combination of all forms provides him with a lot more tricks and if anything, has been showing his Makashii style deflections in a similar manner to Dooku. Assuming these techniques are similar in function, if Dooku can deflect Oppress's power attacks, I'm sure Vader can do it to Malgus.
As for their performance levels in regards to strength, durability, and stamina, I basically agree. Strength wise, cant find anything on Malgus that tops Vader, but I'm sure Malgus's isn't to far off. Durability, under their armor and I say Malgus. But considering their armor, Vader. While I don't know the specifics of Malgus's armor, Vader's armor has been theorized to been enhanced with Sith Alchemy making it more durable (+ been shown enduring a ton of punishment). Not to mention all limbs are artificial. As for stamina, oh yeah. Vader gets Sith Alchemy stimulants, +provided with nutrient pump. That being said, Malgus's stamina is also insane making this either way, one bloody slugging match.
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Ok so I mostly agree with reti when it comes to the plagueis vs obi wan fight, however some points need to be made. Magna guards aren't Sith Lords so using Kenobi's victory over one as proof he could beat plagueis isn't a sound argument. Venamis only scored that nick on plagueis's neck because he had been specifically trained to fight plagueis and knew all the ins and outs of his style, whereas kenobi is completely unfamiliar with plagueis's style and wouldn't be able to do that at least not nearly as quickly, not to mention, that as soon as Plagueis took the fight seriously he completely overwhelmed Venamis who was trained with the specific goal of beating plagueis. Finally, I don't see why plagueis would bother at all with the lightsaber in the first place. He doesn't particularly like lightsaber combat, for starters. Not to mention the only reason he ever held back in all of his fights was to conceal his identity, but if he's fighting a jedi on the high council, then whether he wins or loses his cover is blown and the sith are discovered so since he would be able to sense that kenobi is far less powerful than he is, he would just fry kenobi with a storm of force lightning or slam him into the wall with telekinesis and turn him into a patch of red paste and flee to the unknown regions to rework the grand plan to account for the setback.
evan in your video bane vs hoth which bane did you use. like from which book.
I don't understand how you think hoth would win, I indent to make my own version of this battle to give some more actually logical answers.
Dude they lay it out pretty damn well. You just don't agree with their assessment.
something I disaggre about with the Maul Dooku thing if were only going phantom menace.
when he first engaged Quigon in that lone fight on tattoine he only fought with a SINGLE BLADE.
SPECIFICALLY cause ti was better all on the lonesome.
he went for double sided when he faced TWO jedi.
so the 3o second destroy it thing is a tad silly.
Id give it to Dooku as well but still. this is more Dooku schooling a tier 3 council master something GOOD and exclent that hed enjoy the fight and challenge and can surprise hima t times but it end right.
Wind Sage Dragon but he didn’t change that when he fought Jinn or Kenobi 1v1 during the Duel of Fates. If he had, they’d have good reason to assume he would with Dooku.
Question: Would you guys ever be interested in making a sort of ranking video? Of your opinions on who the best combatants are? I know that'd be tough cause so many characters could situational beat others. But still i'd be interested to know who your picks would be for who the best fighters in the universe would be.
Reti4 - We're absolutely interested in doing it, just a case of working out the best way to handle it. That and finding the time :)
Totally understandable! Well yay! I look forward to when it happens!
Lmao omg.
+Spookasaur I don't know if that was a response to my list. If so, thoughts? I made some extra edits.
Rob George lmao i thoughr your list was funny
He got a haircut!!!
I agree that Maul was never going to have great force abilities in terms of a sith but I will say in rebels they do give him great character development by displaying his force knowledge
And now TCW Season 7 screwed things up by portraying him capable of Mind Probe, casually deflecting blaster bolts with his hands, or ripping off MASSIVE hyperspace reactors without much effort. Consistency is overrated at Disney.
Do you guys ever plan on talking about the New Jedi Order Books? I would really enjoy your thoughts on them.
Reti4 - Absolutely. The New Jedi Order books are some of my favourites. It's just a little way down the list unfortunately. Evan and I are the main appreciators of that series among us five and there are other books we all love that we'll be covering first.
Fanalysis I see. Thanks for the response.
I think that Vader is more likely to defeat Malgus. While Malgus has more experience, more agile and has great power in his lightning, Vader is stronger physically, stronger with the force and has greater skill-set as a duelist.
I do agree that in a blow-for-blow lightsaber fight Vader will lose, but I think Vader will be able to see that and he will change tactics. He will sense the cybernatics Malgus has and will probably try to exploit them either by using the persicion of Makashi or using the force in a form of mechu deru, like Obi Wan did to him on Mustefar, but the former option makes more sense.
I also see that happening before Malgus unleashes his lightning because he never starts with lightning and against other force users of same calibur, he integrates his telekenises and he is less likely to pull his lightnibg in time because he will need to either sustain his body instead of his destroyed cybernatics or he will to power through Vader's force manipulation, which will most likely fail because Vader has greater force output. Still, I do understand why Malgus can defeat Vader and I understand where you guys are coming from, that is just my opinion.
People hype all of plagueis feats shuld think about this. he almost lost to basically the sith equivalent to nahdar vebb.
And what is there to suggest Venamis is "the sith equivalent" of Nahdar Vebb?
I guess his immaturity and overconfidence?
That doesn't suggest power level...
Hm, that's true.
Venamis is a direct clone of Darth Teneberous, who is one of the most powerful sith. So logically he would be way above Vebb who lost to fucking TCW Grievous.
Bane had the upper hand against the very experienced Kas'sim (also a master of all forms) before he pulled out Jar Kai, something Hoth can not do as far as we know, not to mention Bane would have definitively worked to reduce that weakness so that Zannah could not stomp him with it.
If we highball Hoth and say he is better than Kas'sim than it is still just a stalemate, Hoths stasis field feat just means that Bane could not just casually kill him like he did with Sith Lord Qordis. Then again if Jedi vs Sith feats are not taken with a grain of salt than Zannah would easily win match-ups against say Tholme since she could casually levitate as an untrained kid, something that Plagueis thought was somewhat impressive for Venamis to do and something that Dooku did to impress Ventress.
Then again the disparity between Path of Destruction Bane and Dynasty of Evil Bane is at least comparable to the one between Phantom Menace Obi-Wan and Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan (with Obi gaining more experience, power and technique and Bane gaining vastly more power, better technique and additional force skills over a longer time span) so DOE Bane is all but guaranteed to win. Bane was better than all Brotherhood members when he was basically an amateur, compared to what comes later.
Bane would have died if it was not for Orbalisk Armor but he also designed his style around the armor, we do not know what his approach would have otherwise been and even at Typhoon, his tactical low-point, his attacks were still considered unpredictable by Raskta. If he can successfully pull off a feint against a battle meditated Raskta, (who had dedictaed herself entirely to the blade, unlike Hoth) when he can barely think through his rage, than his vastly more unpredictable and faster style in DOE would get a non-battle-meditated Hoth. Plus I doubt that Hoth would not die against amped up Valenthyne and Raskta together.
He also did not abort his warrior nature in the slightest, instead obsessively training, the results of which can be seen at the start of DOE.
Bane pretending to be mind-contolled was not combat, but neither is Hoth planning battles or strategies it does not necessarily translate into 1vs1. We have seen more tactical ingenuity in combat from Bane than from Hoth and while it is fair to assume that Hoth has significant tactical ingenuity saying he is better than Bane is a bit questionable, when one has feats and the other does not. Even against Kas'sim he won by thinking outside of the box and manipulating the environment when it turned out that his balde skills were not enough, I mean you do not have to be Einstein to think about it, but it was all Bane needed to do and he realized that under pressure. If anything with argueably the exception of the mercenary ambush on him nearly all mistakes he does are not in a fight and even there the main problem was that he did not rest before returning.
Hoths stubborn refusal to work with Farfalla, after he had returned was also a big mistake, made of the battlefield.
Despite little experience Banes style has evolved considerably over time and Zannah later notes that he is faster and more powerful than ever, which was Bane already slightly past his prime when it comes to saber fighting, as signififed by his muscle spasm. In fact Bane thought his decline was so great that it was unacceptable of Zannah to have waited so long, which essentially kicks off the plot of DOE.
Of course Hoth could win against Bane, just like Qui-Gon could win against Sidious, due to his superior experience and slightly unorthodox Ataru, it is just not very likely.
Qui Gon against Sidious?...ehhh. That one I'd have to disagree with. He doesn't even compare in force powers, and Sidious would just drop all pretext and bulldoze him with lightning or TK, or throwing shit at him like he did with Yoda.
Obviously Sidious would most likely win, just like Bane against Hoth, thats the point. Maybe Sidious would drag out the fight a bit due to his arrognace and then have a stroke at a vital moment that distracts him for a moment, it is very unlikely but it could happen, the same as Hoth beating Bane.
Max here is the biggest point against your argument about Kas'sim losing against Bane. Kas'sim trained Bane. He did months and months of solo training with him where Bane was exposed to every combination of the saberstaff. (Which in my opinion is a bad lightsaber but anyways.) When you spend so much time fighting one person yes it will increase your skills but it will also make you very good at fighting THAT ONE PERSON. Personally I have fought my friends at least 2x a week and they can beat me about 30-40% of the time. I go and fight someone who I don't fight regularly and I win. My friends try it against the same guy they lose. The reason they pose a challenge to me but not to the other guy is simple they know my style. The feints I use. All of these factors that I have my friends who spar me regularly know what I can and will do. The other guy who is dropped into the fight cold does not know what I can do. Does it mean I am better then them? No. I have beaten people who have been doing sword fighting for years longer then myself.
So is it a surprise to anyone that Bane was able to take apart Kas'sim's saberstaff style after fighting it for literal months for hours? No it shouldn't. Kas'sim was also not a physical match for Bane, and Bane knew how Kas'sim would fight. We have never seen Bane fight someone who is as physically powerful as himself and able to hold their ground before him. So like Vader he is not used to fighting someone who is his physical equal.
Thats a fair point, but Kas'sim was still the best with the blade, among the sith and to a certain degree the opposite also applies, with Kas'sim having observed Banes moves and style over time, literally having taugth him everything he knows and even before Bane had a giant growth in power Kas'sim considered him to be above forms.
It also does not change that Bane did adapt to the situation and used his telekinesis tactically, while the Fanalysis group said he just went "Oh shit, oh shit" when Kas'sim turned the tables, which I thought was a bit unfair.
Banes feats are just more impressive than any of Hoths since all of his are against worthless fodder, if it were not for that stasis field feat there would be no reason to assume that POD Bane would not straigth up stomp him. While Hoth did defeat a sith while in great emotional pain the normal armies on Russean were of pretty low quality though, as can be seen when a Darovit whose powers had been waning since he was seperated from Zannah struck down a jedi and most sith did not get a full education in the dark arts anyway.
Bane has feats for days while Hoth has like one, plus his status as blademaster and experience against enemies that are fodder to Bane, with maybe two or three exceptions and that really is not more impressive than some of Banes feats and accolades. For example Bane collapsed a huge jedi temple, crushed Quordis easily with telekinesis, and fought of a dozen Tuk'ata after wandering through a harsh environment for days without eating or drinking, when a group of Tuk'ata gave a jedi strike team (including Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ferus top padawan besides Anakin, Siri, Soara Antana and 3 nameless jedi) difficulty.
More importantly DOE Bane is on a completely different level than POD Bane in every regard and he has a pretty big arsenal, insane force lightning, very advanced shields and Tutaminis, Blind, Inertia, Force Drain, Death Field, Convection, Cryokinesis, Essence Transfer, Force Consumption (which might actually work since Hoth is a pretty emotional jedi) plus the Huntress thought his power was beyond everything she had experienced, when she had previously just felt the devestation of Ambria, his power was beyond artifacts and Bane could even defend against the rain itself. In his fight with Zannah it was made clear that he was far more unpredictable and sophisticated than in ROT and also faster and stronger. (although less well protected)
In comparison Hoths stasis feat is neat, but just does not compare.
Experience in Star Wars is also not always as much of a handicap as it would realistically be, Palpatine, Cao Ken Darach and Luke being good examples. (I do not think he could beat Vader, but he also had only very little training) Too much experience can also backfire with people falling into repetitve habits (for example Van Zallow), in fact the era of the prequels had close to no lightsaber combat and produced more great masters than any other that we know of.
Excellent points. I was mainly just talking about why Bane would have a much easier time with someone he had sparred with many times before then he would have someone he hadn't. And again as far as I know of he (Bane) has no experience fighting a physical powerhouse like Hoth. Who would win? I don't know. And honestly I don't think that the prequel era Jedi Masters who were proclaimed swordmasters really earned the title with a few exceptions. (Those being Anakin, Obi-wan, Mace Windu, Yoda.) Except for those guys I would put people like Ven Zallow over 90% of those other Jedi 'swordmasters'. (Examples being Kit Fisto, Sasae Tin, and the like.)
I'd be interested if Evan (and the others) had any thoughts on his GM Luke Skywalker vs. Mace Windu video. Does Evan still see them as dueling equals? Do the others?
Jacob Hibbard I can’t speak for my friends, but I personally still stand with my conclusions on that one.
Thanks for the reply! And thank you to all of you for doing these videos. They are truly great. You said that Jaina is the Mace of her time and Kyle the Dooku, so is Luke the Yoda? And does that hold in dueling where Luke, like Yoda, was the best duelist of his era?
Jacob Hibbard Thank you! Also, the answer to both your questions is Yes.
Evannova95 Just wondering Evan, do you still stand by on your Caedus vs Vader verdict??
How come every time you mention the saberstaff you forget about the single blade ignition
Reti4 - We do forget to mention it a lot, 'tis true. Switching to single blade ignition mid-combat is still way more inconvenient than the benefits of the staff are advantageous though.
Mostly agree with what was said, though I'd like to make a comment on Hoth vs Bane and Plagueis vs Kenobi.
For the Hoth vs Bane fight, I want to talk about Bane's arrogance and direct tactics, specifically turning to his final fight with Zannah. A smart approach when she pulled out the tendrils would have been to recognize that she's doing something that he's unfamiliar with and pull back and reassess; get out of range and then try to trip her up or exhaust her from a distance before reengaging. What does he do instead? He barrels in and muscles through, like he always does, and loses his arm and by extension the fight. He does learn from his mistakes, but he's still incredibly arrogant and relies on raw power rather than guile where Hoth has learned to balance the two.
The comment I'd make on Plagueis vs Kenobi is on the verdict; I'm inclined to agree with Evan and Jensaarai, but not outright. I think that, for the opening salvo, Plagueis would be highly conservative and would focus on getting a feel for Kenobi who would be defending, but wouldn't counter yet as Plagueis isn't presenting any good openings. Plagueis then breaks off, sees Kenobi not following and reasons that he can probably overwhelm Kenobi with Lightsaber combat alone. He then reengages, far more aggressively this time, and overextends, at which point Kenobi, seeing the danger he poses, kills Plagueis outright.
Edranair bane had no idea what the tendrils were other than they were requiring so much effort from zannah she couldn't defend her self while using the ability. Bane was milliseconds away from killing zannah and winning the fight. He hit the tendrils with his saber, tk and other things and non had any effect on the tendrils. You think it's smart from bane to not exploit an obvious weakness of the ability and just let zannah use the ability as long as possible ? That's the worst thing he could do because he doesn't know how to defend against the ability so the smartest thing to do is stop her using it.
Saber throw? Attack her with TK directly? Lightning? Thrown objects? He had other options, but he always advocates for the direct approach even when it's not ideal. Quote from Rule of Two (Book of the Sith); 'At every moment, one should be assessing the ways to dispatch one's opponent - select the most direct method.' The problem with this is that the direct approach isn't always the best one and his inexperience and arrogance can lead him into catastrophic miscalculations.
Using the tendrils example, he'd tested them with TK, lightsaber etc., but he knew they had to do SOMETHING for Zannah to expose herself like that and rather than go for a tactical advantage or an indirect assault, he gambled everything on a single attack and it blew up in his face. Bane's a master manipulator and grand strategist, but when he's confronted with something he isn't sure of, he gets impatient and tries to kill it in as few moves as possible rather than taking a less risky, but less immediate option.
*Saber throw?*
Then all zannah has to do is stop using tendrils and banes lost the fight. when he fought zannah without a saber earlier in the book he had no chance of victory. plus one of the tendrils could take out the saber hilt
*Attack her with TK directly? Lightning?*
she still has a force shield up so at most it would knock her back and stop the tendrils then the fight continues where she has even more distance between them than she did before which gives zannah an advantage. bane sought to end the fight then and there
*Thrown objects?*
takes longer than just a force push he'd likely have been hit byt a tendril before he threw the object and he'd have to throw something significant for it to do much to zannah
*He had other options, but he always advocates for the direct approach even when it's not ideal. Quote from Rule of Two (Book of the Sith); 'At every moment, one should be assessing the ways to dispatch one's opponent - select the most direct method.' The problem with this is that the direct approach isn't always the best one and his inexperience and arrogance can lead him into catastrophic miscalculations.*
the rule of two is the complete opposite of the direct approach, on korriban when he was cornered by sirak and his lackeys bane didn't just charge at them, he manipulated them and left two of them vulnerable to being cut down before they could do anything. When he fought Kasim he adapted to all of kasims constant changes in form until the specific weakness kasim gave bane while training him. When Kaan tried to mentally control bane he was able to think quickly and pretend kaan had successfully dominated him. Even while having his strategic thinking weakened by the orbaliask armour his moves were completely unpredictable to even Raska lsu and he even managed to throw her to the ground at one point by tricking her with a feint. He also completely outsmarted zannah in their first DOE fight in the stone prison
*Using the tendrils example, he'd tested them with TK, lightsaber etc., but he knew they had to do SOMETHING for Zannah to expose herself like that and rather than go for a tactical advantage or an indirect assault, he gambled everything on a single attack and it blew up in his face. *
She was using an ability he knew nothing, he didn't know the full extent of what it could do or how to stop it. Either
A) He cycles through various abilities hoping some destroy or stun the tendrils all the while hoping he isn't hit by any.
B) try to get close to zannah and kill her in a single strike
C) try to take out zannah from range which would result in either complete failure or her only getting knocked back and then being further away from bane than she was before giving her a bigger advantage
*Bane's a master manipulator and grand strategist, but when he's confronted with something he isn't sure of, he gets impatient and tries to kill it in as few moves as possible rather than taking a less risky, but less immediate option.*
I showed thats completely wrong with my earlier examples
With regards to destroying the saber hilt, it's a hell of a lot smaller than he is and can move more freely due to TK manipulation, in regards to losing his weapon, he can pick it up again afterwards. When they fought earlier he had no access to his weapon through any means and was forced to come up with a plan while he tried to delay or avoid that fight.
Knocking her back; it'd still stop her from doing what she's doing and he's already demonstrated an ability to resist at least most of her abilities earlier in the fight, given his superior physique and spatial awareness, turning the fight into a slugging match would be fairly advantageous to him as Zannah's tactical skills in direct combat seem fairly limited.
Thrown objects. All he has to do is disrupt her concentration, even just nudging it slightly might give him an opening and, if he was practiced at throwing objects, then he would be able to do at least small ones quickly. We've seen other force users, like Shaak Ti in her first fight with Grievous or Caedus against Kyle Katarn, use such abilities very quickly and if he can't, then that's purely on him and demonstrates a limited understanding of indirect combat.
I'm not arguing that Bane is stupid, when he gets time to think or gets put into a situation he considers himself ready for he's quick on the draw, very intelligent, and can execute plans flawlessly, but when he needs to improvise under pressure, he's direct. He was ready for Kasim's fighting style due to his training and likely anticipated someone being sent to kill him, but once the fight started, he only had a very simple, broad plan of 'stop him escaping and crush him beneath my superior might', which could be applied against anyone weaker than the colossus that is Bane and didn't have any nuances particular to the situation or opponent. He likely at least suspected that Kaan would try mental domination and prepared accordingly and regarding Lsu, it's worth noting that Bane's near invulnerability put her in a situation she'd likely considered impossible and changed the rules to ones that a lightsaber normally invalidated, which meant that she'd have been fighting a lifetime of experience when it came to reading his movements as he can move in ways that would be suicide in any other circumstance. For his first fight with Zannah, again he'd had time to think while evading her.
He could have balanced his options by using multiple angles of attack or using ranged options to stagger her and give him a better opening in which to close the distance, force throws being the best tool for that approach.
Bringing up a statement purely to gloat just makes you look condescending. Please stop it, it's annoying and adds nothing.
It's worth noting that Bane is a master strategist, but he always uses his tools in a very direct manner, and when he uses them to achieve larger goals through knock-on effects, he does so through a plan that he formed ahead of time for that specific situation.
*With regards to destroying the saber hilt, it's a hell of a lot smaller than he is and can move more freely due to TK manipulation*
For some reason throwing a saber accurately is an incredibly advanced skill, ive never seen it explained why a saber is so much harder to throw than normal objects but its something that only very skilled or talented force users can do. Set harth for example had to spend years of training just to throw it properly and he was powerful and talented enough to be considered as her apprentice only failing because of his personality. so while bane is a larger target than a saber hilt its easier for him to move himself or some of his limbs around a tendril than it is his saber especially since it would likely either be fixed in one direction and get hit or moved slower so he can move it around tendrils
*in regards to losing his weapon, he can pick it up again afterwards.*
Implying Zannah would just stand their while bane pulls the saber to him rather than take it for herself or destroy it.
*When they fought earlier he had no access to his weapon through any means and was forced to come up with a plan while he tried to delay or avoid that fight.*
i agree but it shows how severe the consequences would be if he couldnt get his saber back.
*Knocking her back; it'd still stop her from doing what she's doing and he's already demonstrated an ability to resist at least most of her abilities earlier in the fight*
she didn't use any regular force abilities against him in that fight, in the stone prison she hit him with a force push hard enough to knock the wind out of him. Given banes massive edge physically and with a saber and the fact they were equal over all zannah must has a significant edge with the force.
*given his superior physique and spatial awareness, turning the fight into a slugging match would be fairly advantageous*
not if that slugging match is with the force. the fact bane never used tk or lightening against her (something he normally uses regularly) shows he know it would be useless against her.
*Thrown objects. All he has to do is disrupt her concentration, even just nudging it slightly might give him an opening and, if he was practiced at throwing objects, then he would be able to do at least small ones quickly*
Ive explained why just disrupting her concentration is a bad thing
*I'm not arguing that Bane is stupid, when he gets time to think or gets put into a situation he considers himself ready for he's quick on the draw, very intelligent, and can execute plans flawlessly, but when he needs to improvise under pressure, he's direct.*
I gave multiple examples showing otherwise
*He was ready for Kasim's fighting style due to his training and likely anticipated someone being sent to kill him, but once the fight started, he only had a very simple, broad plan of 'stop him escaping and crush him beneath my superior might', which could be applied against anyone weaker than the colossus that is Bane and didn't have any nuances particular to the situation or opponent.*
aside form the weakness kasim gave him bane was the superior duellist so banes tactic was smart, just overwhelm kasim and use his superior knowledge of the temple layout to stop Kasim escaping. Bane not falling for Kasims various tricks and constant changes in form shows smarts. It was said Kasim had held a lot of moves back from bane in case they ever fought, as bane had held back against kasim while they trained
*He likely at least suspected that Kaan would try mental domination and prepared accordingly*
No he had no idea about Kaans mental control over the brotherhood, nobody did but Kaan. Bane just thought they were all sheep blindly following Kaan.
*and regarding Lsu, it's worth noting that Bane's near invulnerability put her in a situation she'd likely considered impossible and changed the rules to ones that a lightsaber normally invalidated, which meant that she'd have been fighting a lifetime of experience when it came to reading his movements as he can move in ways that would be suicide in any other circumstance.*
Sure that gave him an initial advantage until she realised he had impenetrable armour then she could adapt accordingly but for the entire fight she kept not being able to predict his movements despite being amps and having Farfalla back her up.
*For his first fight with Zannah, again he'd had time to think while evading her.*
For much of that time he was trying to rid to toxins from his blood, track down the woman who killed him and lead zannah away form him by imprinting his signature in the force in different areas of their prison while masking his own.
*He could have balanced his options by using multiple angles of attack*
He was severally limited in angles of attack because he was having to constantly dodge tendrils
*or using ranged options to stagger her and give him a better opening in which to close the distance, force throws being the best tool for that approach.*
closing the distance is much easier to say that do especially against a superior force user. bane could have still won but he would be at a big disadvantage
*Bringing up a statement purely to gloat just makes you look condescending. Please stop it, it's annoying and adds nothing.*
I have no idea what you are referring to here
*It's worth noting that Bane is a master strategist, but he always uses his tools in a very direct manner, and when he uses them to achieve larger goals through knock-on effects, he does so through a plan that he formed ahead of time for that specific situation*
My examples show otherwise including the example with siraak which you never addressed.
This is something i should have asked earlier but assuming bane is just straight forward with hoth how would that be a disadvantage ? Bane completely outclasses Hoth with the force and a saber. Hoths only chance is pure luck and the longer the fight goes on the more likely it is that hoth gets extremely lucky. better to just overwhelm Hoth quickly.
Would what anyone think of Lord Hoth vs Darth Vader?
We don't really have many feats from Hoth outside of hype or speculation.
I do buy into that Sith are overhyped a bit (Vader, Nihulus, Bane etc. Come to my mind) but I think scaling wise and logic wise, Plagueis is a very powerful character, but yes, his lightsaber skill would never defeat Obi-Wan. But this is a guy that is the second to last of the rule of two era and that DOES mean something, just as I believe it means something for Tenebrous as the third last (do not say Venemis and Tenebrous are the same or even similar, that's racist against Bith) and it's implied that Sidious was even afraid of Plagueis, especially in the way he killed him. And Sidious is not a push over (obviously) he IS the strongest Sith in canon, even if his actual skill may be comparatively low compared to others, but his Force augmentation just makes him too much for nearly anyone INCLUDING MACE WINDU AND YODA. If he didn't have that absurdly overwhelming power and speed given to him by his level of Force ability, he would be comparatively weak against people in his power range.
And if you're insulted by me saying he could soundly kill Mace, go ahead and argue that "But Mace won!" I'm sure that'll go over great as your only argument.
For Obiwan Vs Darth Plaguis...
I think people MASSIVLY overhype when he went full broncho on the assasins. I mean sure he was tearing through them but....
they WERE jsut assasins. good ones? but Rohnar KIM was able to defeat them. even the talk of they have killed jedi.. they haven't killed ACCOMPLISHED jedi of the HIGH reknown you know what i mean? jsut the garden variety.
so even if he tries for a Ragg doll. who only Dooku has reliably pulled off...
its POSSIBLE that he can do a counter all a that Force push stand off against Darth Vader in revenge of the Sith.
and well he IS willing to jump in on em if he knows thats not the good point to go to you know? he is a VERY experienced war general. front line fighter.
SO I think it be a 6/10 for Kenobi. hed WIN but its nto a HUGE overwhelmingly majority.
the sad thing is that the star wars logo is over jen's head so we can't see his new haircut :(
Cool haircut haircut connor
see now im curious.
Obiwan Kenobi vs Exaur Kun?
Kyle Katarn vs Jania!
Lord Hoth vs Ulic Qel Droma.
Darth Malick vs Shaak Ti or Plo Koon
Wind Sage Dragon Kun stomps
You mean Jaina? She wins
I’d say Hoth
Malak both, but it’s close both times.
My thoughts are the same as Tanner's but Kun doesn't stomp Kenobi. Kenobi can contend and has a shot of winning.
Kanan vs Jaina and Hoth vs Ulic are complete mismatches. Someone who could contend with Exar Kun isn't losing to Hoth lol
+Samuel Myth Just to clarify on Hoth vs Ulic, Ulic and Kun were purely slugging it out in lightsaber combat and Kun was only using a std lightsaber (which means Kun wasn't truly going all out). So I don't think this is that much of a mismatch. Also, its Kyle vs Jaina.
Rob George Yeah pretty much. But I think you underestimate Kim’s abilities. Kenobi definitely wins a pure lightsaber duel, but it’s super close because Kun is incredibly skilled. However Kun, especially with his amulet, would decimate Kenobi with the Force. His TK is unbelievably stronger, plus he has beams of death and other forms of Sith Sorcery.
[PART 1/3]
7:19, regarding the notion that Vader would have crushed Luke had he been going all-out, that's... just nonsense. According to the actual source-material, essentially a vast majority of sources actually, if not all of them,, and the highest levels of canon by the way, Luke was TRULY matching Vader in their fight in RotJ, besting him according to some of said sources. And from the RotJ Novelization specifically, it's confirmed that Vader wasn't holding back; he was prepared to kill Luke. And regarding the "psychological" aspect, if you can argue Vader was subconsciously holding back... Luke was CONSCIOUSLY holding back, until he raged out at the end of the fight of course. Anyway, I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure consciously holding back would be more significant than subconsciously holding back.
My own 2 cents on Malgus vs. Vader mirror Evan's own: I can never find myself thinking one of them would solidly win over the other, and my opinion on who wins seems to frequently fluctuate over the years.
24:46, you STILL think Hoth would beat Bane? I take it you didn't read my comments on that video then. XD
It's fine if you magically think #tactics beat #power in regard to Hoth vs. Bane, but if you want your stance to be taken at all seriously, you should probably substantiate your stance a little with some actual sources, because, as is, you're arguing from pure head-canon.
26:33... Jesus... allow me to give you a little refresher of what happened in the fight between Bane and Kas'im: Bane was beating Kas'im, then Kas'im revealed essentially his trump card, detaching his double-bladed saber into dual-blade lightsabers, something Kas'im discouraged, and didn't teach Bane or any of his students, and then, because of Bane's absolute lack of experience or even familiarity against dual-wielding fighting styles, Kas'im regained the advantage in a big way. While I think Bane eventually marginalized or even completely overcame his weakness against dual-wielding/Jar'Kai style fighting by the time of DoE, it's irrelevant in regard to Bane vs. HOTH because Hoth uses ONE LIGHTSABER. In regard to Bane's fight against the Jedi on Tython, I honestly don't know why you're including that fight as an example for Bane being brought to heel. Maybe, I don't know, do a better job factoring in context, bro. #ContextMatters
27:44, I'm honestly amazed you hold that feat of Hoth's anywhere near as highly as you do, Reti. While you mention some factors that make the feat seem more impressive, like him being distracted, one thing you're failing to mention is the fact that the woman Hoth froze into stasis was a nobody, a "minion of the Sith". You also manufacture the aspect of the feat that Hoth knew a fellow soldier would strike her down. That's not in the text, nor even hinted; you're just straight up making that shit up.
In comparison, Bane, with contemptuous ease, overpowers Qordis' active force shields, before killing him just as easily. Qordis, for the record, is confirmed as one of the most powerful members of The Brotherhood of Darkness.
Another thing I'm surprised none of you 3 are catching is the fact that, yes, Hoth has more BATTLEFIELD experience, but Bane has more DUELING experience, and as most of these vs. match-up are in a scenario where it's more toward a dueling situation than a battlefield one, I simply don't understand why you think Hoth's superior battlefield experience (against significantly less impressive enemies by the way) somehow translates to him beating Bane, who is demonstrably superior to Hoth in every way... except for in... BaTtLeFiElD eXpErIeNcE.
I also find it interesting you all try to shy away from speculation when at all possible, yet for some strange reason, on a random whim, that just doesn't apply when it comes to Hoth; you'll speculate to your hearts' content. -_-
I'll happily call bullshit on you guys when I see it, and when it comes to the specific match-up of Hoth vs. Bane, hell, I could probably smell your guys' bullshit from miles away.
36:55, um, the person Hoth froze into stasis, again, is mentioned to be, from the text itself, a "minion of the Sith." I don't know why you're jumping to the conclusion that the person was a Sith warrior. It could have just as easily been a regular soldier like the ones in regiments and units like the Gloom Walkers Bane was a part of back when he was known as Dessel.
In fact, if you take the time to simply look up "Sith minion," you'll find, at least according to a quick Wookieepedia search, "They were the lowliest members of the Sith Order. They were often not even Force-sensitive."
WOW! HOW IMPRESSIVE OF HOTH! You're right, Reti, that's easily one of the most impressive feats out there! :D
-_-
38:43, yes, Hoth and Lsu are indeed very different combatants. Hoth is incomparably more well-rounded, whereas Lsu is entirely lightsaber-combat-focused. That said, all the info we have on both Hoth and Lsu pretty solidly paints the picture that Lsu, at least by the time of RoT, when she's introduced, is a better duelist than Hoth. Where Hoth absolutely eclipses Lsu is in Force abilities... on account of Lsu essentially having none for all intents and purposes. That said, Hoth has demonstrated no showing of the Force that Bane couldn't EASILY handle, and then dish back in spades.
39:48 (40:05), "massive cheat?" Evan, maybe you forgot just how outnumbered Bane was (2 to 1, then 3 to 1), oh, and the fact that the Jedi were empowered by Worror Dowmat's battle meditation? So while yeah, the orbalisks were a huge boon for Bane, don't act like the Jedi didn't have their own notable advantages evening out the playing field. -_-
Again, context matters.
Dooku vs. Maul, I agree for the most part. The only area I think you guys are off a bit is you're all lowballing Maul as a duelist a bit. While I agree with the mechanics aspect of Dooku's Makashi being well-suited to go against Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, you're selling Maul's saber skills a little short. We have numerous sources, both Legends and Canon that paint him in a more impressive dueling light than you guys think. That's kinda my only gripe there though.
49:26, yeah, no surprise there, Evan... your Hoth vs. Bane, and Plagueis vs. Kenobi videos are easily probably your worst. The prior being bad because of the verdict, the latter being bad because of the match-up itself: Kenobi is simply not in Plagueis' league in the slightest. While Kenobi may have anywhere from approximately equal skill, to even notably superior skill in the blade than Plagueis, Plagueis' force aug. outright outstrips Kenobi's. Not even gonna go into detail about how Plagueis would massacre Kenobi with the Force, as that should be a given. The only thing to discuss here is how you guys severely underrate Plagueis as a physical combatant, which IMO is inexcusable since you've all read the Plagueis novel.
[PART 2/3]
50:15 (wondering how Evan's gonna pull this out of his ass)... OH! By completely perverting and twisting feats for both by coloring Kenobi's feats as more impressive than they were, and Plagueis' as less impressive than they were. Can't say I'm surprised, Evan. I guess it's that time again for me to educate you.
Your list for Kenobi wasn't actually that bad, you just made it all sound slightly more impressive.
Your Plagueis bit is what I take major issue with.
1. "Defeated a crew of pirates... with no Force abilities."
That's... not even really true. Plagueis definitely used the Force in that fight, and I'm not even referring to the more passive abilities like precog. and force aug. Plagueis used lightsaber throw, Tutaminis, and force lightning.
But that's beside the point. What people should know about that fight that's impressive, isn't that he single-handedly defeated an entire reasonably armed crew of a ship. It's specifically HOW he dispatched them that's impressive.
At the start of the fight, Plagueis evades and deflects blaster-fire from 4 different combatants, all positioned around him. He deflects the bolts with both his lightsaber and with his right hand by the way.
He then kills and decommissions 2 other crew members that enter the fray with a lightsaber throw, and during this time, the onslaught of blaster-fire from said 4 different vectors all around Plagueis don't cease. This means Plagueis managed to dodge and/or deflect/absorb all shots that would have otherwise struck him... without his lightsaber. While his lightsaber is still mid-arc, 1 of the mentioned 4 crew members shooting at Plagueis gets up, and presses toward Plagueis now that he's "unarmed," and continues firing at Plagueis. While still dodging the others' blaster-fire, Plagueis uses Tutaminis against the blaster-fire of the one now approaching him, and sends the energy back at him in the form of force lightning so powerful it turned the attacker's bones to dust. The above happened all before the lightsaber returned to Plagueis.
Another of the initial 4 charges at Plagueis now that his blaster has been depleted, and attacks Plagueis with a vibroblade. Lightsaber back in-hand, Plagueis instead chooses to indulge his attacker instead of killing him outright with his saber. He engages him in physical combat, parrying his numerous punches and kicks, and then side-kicks him, sending him flying across the cabin where he hit the bulkhead, dead.
The 2 remaining crew members dived at Plagueis, and managed to actually get a hold of him. "But it was as if the Muun had turned to stone. The Kaleesh and the Quara attacked with teeth and claws, but to no perceptible effect. And when the Muun had had enough of it, he positioned his lightsaber directly in front of him and gyred in their grasp, taking off PePe's tusked face and Zuto's blunt, whiskered snout."
That marks the end of the fight. Keep in mind, this is all decades before Plagueis' prime by the way.
2. "Defeated Tenebrous' WEAK Bith Padawan by the skin of his teeth."
Wow. Um... first things first, Venamis wasn't a "Padawan," he was a realized Sith apprentice of Darth Tenebrous. Also, there's literally no reason for you to think Venamis was weak... though I'd love to hear your incredibly poorly put-together argument as to why you think Venamis is weak.
Second, no, Plagueis did not just barely win; you're merely yet again ignoring context. Once Plagueis realized Venamis had been trained by Tenebrous to be an expert in Plagueis' style, and suffered a glancing blow from Venamis to his neck, he changed tactics, and essentially let Venamis defeat himself. Plagueis switched to Soresu, and allowed Venamis to grow more and more aggravated and desperate, until he overextended, and Plagueis capitalized on the opportunity and opening he had engendered, and effectively ended the fight directly after that.
3. "Defeated a bunch of Maladians... FORCELESS Maladians."
Yet again with ignoring context, huh? Methinks I sense a theme with you.
Well, before that fight even truly began, Plagueis suffered a major injury to the neck: "... a disk had made off with a considerable hunk of his jawbone and neck, and in its cruel passing had severed his trachea and several blood vessels."
So, far all intents and purposes, Plagueis suffered what would be, to normal beings, an absolutely fatal wound.
He then felled well over a dozen of the Maladians with merely his body and the Force, no lightsaber (he didn't have it with him at that particular time).
Also, in regard to the Maladians you so clearly want to diminish:
"... Maladians were far from run-of-the-mill murderers. Members of the cult had killed and wounded Jedi, and in response to confronting Force powers, they didn't shrink or flee but simply changed tactics..."
Most notably in this fight, he 'all but atomized' 12 of the Maladians with a force wave.
4. "Is roughly implied to have defeated a bunch of primitives on a planet."
This is so far beyond annoying by now, Evan.
a) It's not "roughly implied." It happened. I'm looking at the excerpt from the novel right now. XD
b) While "bunch" worked fine to describe the amount of Maladians Plagueis faced, I don't quite think it's appropriate to use "bunch" in reference to “several hundred”.
c) Yes, they were primitives, however it was "several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors" of said primitives.
d) Sidious and Plagueis used force pikes (as to not kill them) and no active force powers to wade through all several hundred of said warriors.
But no, keep living in your oblivious ignorance, Evan, thinking Obi-Wan Kenobi has more impressive feats than Darth Plagueis. XD
51:48, oh here we go again with the stupid "combat experience" argument. I could swear I've already countered that on numerous of your guys' videos. Once again though...
Sidious is a perfect example of someone, like Bane and like Plagueis, who didn't have much combat experience, yes? Given that, he is still confirmed from numerous sources as a master of lightsaber combat, and proves his mettle by matching Mace and Yoda in their respective fights with The Dark Lord of the Sith.
[PART 3/3]
52:41, Jen, you're just plain wrong. As I explained above in #2, Plagueis did not, as you erroneously claim, defeat Venamis through being "overwhelmed by Plagueis' Force abilities."
Sure, both Venamis and Plagueis used the Force in that fight, but how Plagueis defeated Venamis is in regard to lightsaber combat, not an active use of force powers.
54:01, see, I never understood this aspect of the match-up. You never make it a clear stipulation in the match-up that their hypothetical fight is happening in a location where it would behoove Plagueis to not go crazy with his Force powers or even use them in an active sense at all... you just randomly argue that Plagueis would be reluctant to use his powers. What the fuck are you guys talking about? XD
54:54, no, Jen. Plagueis, as a Banite Sith, had a wealth of information at his disposal, and trained to be able to handle just about any situation. That was kind of the whole point of the advancement of the Sith in the Rule of Two lineage. Saying Plagueis was training against assassins and aggressors is a complete misinterpretation and gross misunderstanding. For having read the Plagueis novel, all of you have an amazingly bad reading comprehension of the material. XD
55:53, lol. Proof you don't have good reading-comprehension, Evan. XD
There's nothing indicating Plagueis was worried about how the fight looked to potential onlookers. Here's the actual excerpt:
"Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of their contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest's understory."
What we can take away from that:
1. "Plagueis took a moment to wonder..." YEESH! Yeah, sounds pretty worried to me!
2. They are fighting far away from anyone who could have potentially seen the fight.
3. They are fighting in the midst of a forest, and given Plagueis' description that it would have looked like lightning flashing, it's clear, for any potential onlookers, they wouldn't be able to clearly perceive what they were seeing.
You all thinking Kenobi would win against Plagueis, even in a lightsaber duel, is just adorable. XD
As I stated in the beginning, even IF Kenobi has superior blade SKILL, he's outclassed by Plagueis' force aug.
And it seems you think, because Plagueis got nicked by Venamis, that means Kenobi would be able to do the same if not far worse to Plagueis. You're omitting the fact that that was Plagueis significantly pre-prime. His prime is actually AFTER the Maladian assassination attempt, when Sidious sees Plagueis after some time has passed, and Plagueis shrunk away from the public eye to focus on his Force studies and abilities. He made a major breakthrough with his Midi-Chlorian manipulation, and not only had undone much of the injuries he had sustained sense then, but he actually increased his own Midi-Chlorian count, increasing his own power.
58:14, my god. SMH. You're taking things, outright ignoring the context (as usual), and forcibly yanking it into a completely separate context, like trying to force a completely misshapen puzzle piece into a slot it doesn't and can't go in. To specify, you can't just say, because Plagueis was caught off-guard by an assassination attempt, he'd reasonably be caught off-guard by Kenobi. WTFuck?!
XD I swear, your ability to use logic and reason must have broke a LOOOOONG time ago, Evan.
59:14, Reti, so you think most Sith Lords are overhyped because of the actual official material and content we have on them, huh? Interesting. But, of course, your headcanon has more merit than official sources.
^Aside from that though, it seems Reti's kind of the voice of reason here for this match-up.
1:01:40, again, Reti, your headcanon is not > official sources. Beyond that however, we have decades of training under Plagueis, and the vast amount of Rule of Two knowledge passed down through generations. That alone is a sufficient answer to how Sidious got so damn good at lightsaber combat. And, I don't know if you know this, but politicians have decent amounts of free time. It's not unreasonable for Sidious to have kept up his lightsaber skills between TPM and RotS, or even possibly until RotJ.
1:01:47, nah, Evan, I debunked your "debunking" in that video.
1:01:59, here comes Reti, yet again, ripping and roaring with his almighty HEADCANNON! 'Yeah, sure, official sources state this and that, but it doesn't exactly make that much sense to me because #MuhCombatExperience, so I'll just go ahead and ignore a multitude of official sources all saying basically the same thing and believe what I want to believe.' Also, to correct you, Sidious didn't have zero interest in lightsaber combat. Hell, his many fights engaging in lightsaber combat clearly goes right in the face of that. He merely saw it as ultimately unnecessary, and viewed it more as a tool to humiliate and embarrass the Jedi.
1:06:19, "DO REMEMBER"... that Venamis was trained to counter Plagueis' style. XD
I'd liken it to Bane training to go against Sirak's fighting style. Then, when Plagueis' switched from whatever his primary style was (it's never specified), to Soresu, he gained the clear advantage.
57:16
Kyle also has a better beard than Dooku as well ;)
+Mace Fell Out The Windu! Kenobi's beard>Kyle's.
Kenobi’s>Dooku’s>Kyle’s
"Fanalysis Lite"...I guess Lite=1 hour long videos now.
Reti4 - It's more to signify the fact that we're not doing a full Fanalysis on an actual work, like an analysis on the Bane Trilogy itself would have been. Not so much relating to length. I'll grant it's not the *best* name in the world, but we're very much a work in progress as a channel at the moment. The kinks will hammer out in time.
+Fanalysis lol, its all good Reti4
First comment and nice to see another star wars vid
You’re totally right about Bane. From memory, the only fights he’s been in are:
Bane and Githany vs Sirak and his goons
Bane vs Kas’im
Bane vs the assassins (I don’t remember what they’re called)
Bane vs Zannah immediately after
Bane and Zannah vs Strike Team
Bane vs Huntress
Bane vs Zannah part 1
Bane vs Zannah part 2.
sidious had been in far less fights than kit fisto, agen Kolor and Saesee Tinn and look how that worked out. Bane is leagues ahead of hoth in terms of power and almost certainly more skilled with a blade, add Banes far superior physical capabilities and its clear bane stomps Hoth
banethesithari No stomp at all. If you go back and watch the original video, it’s clear that Hoth has similar feats with the Force and Blade, even if not quite as good.
Tanner Lowie If we are talking prime Bane, he definitely stomps
TheUnknown MonkeyTroop Go watch the video and learn about Hoth. Then say that again. Lol
Tanner Lowrie
Have you personally read any of the Bane books?
I was typing up thoughts and lost it...crap.
Not full thoughts but I see Plague vs Kenobi and Evan saying verdict stands. Oh boy...here we go again.
Reti4 - I have my own thoughts on that one as well, as I raise in the video.
+Fanalysis I watched it and my current thoughts on that matchup parallels yours. Im just expecting the comments to turn into another shit storm.
I think Sora Bulq would beat Darth Malgus and Kao Cen Darach.
Debatable if he could beat Darach. But he isn't beating Malgus lol
Samuel Myth He has the skill on his side to beat both.
Samuel Myth I think he could beat malgus. Malgus has a physical and force edge but not enough to overcome Sora bulqs massive lightsaber advantage.
banethesithari Even Dooku annihilated Bulq using the force. I don't see how Malgus could not. Bulqs best feats were stalemating Mace Windu and killing Oppo Rancisis. He got crushed by Quinlan Vos who ( if we are talking legends) isn't that impressive.
Samuel Myth he ragdolled Vos. Beat the crap out of him and Vos never would have made it without metal help from Tholm and Aayla.
Why is it always super hard to hear Reti?
Bane showed to be able to defeat kas'im a sith who was considered to have possibly been the most skilled sith martial artist in the orders existence. Bane as a 20 something year old was able to almost kill him and only found trouble when duel blades was brought to the contest. Also considering that bane was 2 decades from his zenith and I see the utter bs that you are spouting. I love your content but this is just a mentally stupid outcome.
If Maul and Dooku ever fought, I'd just for once like to see Maul slip in a punch or kick during a blade lock or something and see Dooku crumple immediately, IF Maul could hit Dooku, it would be a one hit K.O. I have no doubt, Maul has a vast physical edge, even more than Anakin's edge over Dooku, but Dooku is a head above in force powers and lightsaber combat, so it's not much of a fair fight.