Backpacking Stove Efficiency, Part 1: Pot Diameter, Burner Size, Flame Level
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 бер 2023
- This video seeks to determine “best” backcountry cook kit options for both Fuel Efficiency and Weight Efficiency.
It investigates the performance interaction of titanium pots in increasing diameters against stoves of various burner widths, and at 3 different flame levels.
It also addresses the performance benefits of using a lid on your pot, and the question of whether a lid is worth the weight to an ultralight backpacker.
Download the raw data and graphs (Excel Spreadsheet):
www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5g7tz5...
Video Index
00:36 Testing Protocol
01:24 Pot Selection
03:51 Stove Selection
06:05 Flow Regulation System
09:44 Measurement Apparatus
11:16 Functional “Boil” Defined
12:57 Testing Procedure Illustrated
Results
15:54 MSR Pocket Rocket Deluxe (High)
17:28 MSR Pocket Rocket Deluxe (Medium)
18:32 MSR Pocket Rocket Deluxe (Low)
19:46 Margin of Error
Results
21:07 BRS-3000T (High)
21:45 BRS-3000T (Medium)
22:08 BRS-3000T (Low)
Results
23:13 Primus Classic Trail (High)
23:45 Primus Classic Trail (Medium)
24:08 Primus Classic Trail (Low)
24:27 Countervailing Effects
25:35 Canister Pressure Drop
28:06 In-Stove Pressure Regulation
28:23 Lid Testing
Results
30:59 Lid Effect - Toaks Light 550 Pot
32:00 Lid Effect - Toaks D118 Bowl
32:37 Lid Effect - Toaks 1600 Pan
33:09 The Lids
35:41 System Weights
36:52 Fuel Efficiency vs. Weight Efficiency
40:46 Is a Lid Worth the Weight?
43:01 Summary
Performance Nutrition for Backpackers video series:
• Hiker Food
Backcountry Water Treatment video series:
• Backcountry Water Trea...
Efficiency by flame level has been something I've wondered about every time I used my stove, but I never bothered to test it. Thank you for doing the hard work for us.
Most welcome! I hope it helps.
These are great tests . . . I think we all suspected and predicted some of these results but I thought lids would make a bugger difference. Looking forward to the aluminum tests.
Was looking forward to the next water treatment episode, but GearSkeptic adds yet ANOTHER insanely thorough series into the mix. Absolutely wild. This man cannot be stopped.
Too many pots...boiling on the stove!
@@GearSkeptic Don't boil yourself out...
I'm a professional instructional designer - who specializes in teaching content through video. This is one of the best instructional videos I've ever seen. It ticks so many boxes for instructional best practices. I'm going to use your video as an example when I teach.
really good, but too long. half an hour would be perfect
Thanks very much! That really means a lot, and I sincerely appreciate it.
@@thek3743 go 1.5x Bro 😅
Wow! I thought I was a gear nerd, but you take it to a whole new level. Thanks for all the many hours you put into these tests! I look forward to your wind tests. I know from real world experience the the BRS-3000 is SEVERELY impacted by wind. In fact, if you don't use a windscreen with it even just a moderate breeze can keep you from being able to bring it to a boil at all.
Thanks! And yah, I'm totally expecting wind to change some of these conclusions.
Wicked surprising. Not the results, but the entertainment value. How is it possible that a cannot suffer regular speed through an 8-12 minute gear review video with all sorts of effort put into cinematography, but I could not bear to fast forward even one minute of this video!
Thank you for your hard work and dedication. It is greatly appreciated. You make excellent content, please keep making videos.
Thanks very much! I may be slow, but I am steady.
Eye opening and amazing amount of hard work. This is one of those milestones that will be referenced for next decade in UL world and on reddit. Thank you.
Thanks! That is genuinely appreciated.
God these are good. Not sure if it's on your "to do" list, but would love to see how windscreens affect efficiency as well!
Definitely! Working on fans and the mechanics of a wind setup. Already collecting windscreens and choosing stoves.
@@GearSkeptic This is a great idea - I am also curious about using low flame in a breeze.
You are a beacon of hope and rationality in an age of radical political polarization, disinformation, outright lies, conspiracy theories and BS. I am not and will never be a democrat or republican. I’m a hiker. And I hike to get away from the bs. Thank you for your service to humanity by embodying the highest ideals of rational thought.
Thank you so much! One of the things I get out of this project is a temporary escape from all those things you mentioned.
It's important to have our ways of coping with the stress the world imparts on us! I have very similar reasons for getting into this hobby, but I think it's worth saying that you are still a member of our society. You come back to a community when your hiking trips are over. And that community needs you in it. Please participate in it.
@@Jacob-ly8vs yeah, well, I was going to rejoin society but then noticed Bud Light hired a man who pretends to be a woman to be their spokesman, or spokeswomen or something. No thanks. Turning off the news. Planning my next hike.
Hooray! I completely agree with the well said comment! 🎉
Politics won't leave you alone. If you don't participate, most of the time, your inferiors will govern you.
I could watch you control for variability all day long! Thanks for all your hard work. We appreciate your insights!!
Thanks much! I appreciate that :)
I have literally wondered about this for years. I can't believe how good and thorough this video is. Thank you for your effort!
Thank you! I appreciate that. Hopefully some of it helps.
Thank you for this video. It's so refreshing to see real science, solid lab techniques, and good data brought into these discussions. I watched all 47 minutes and loved it all.
You’re welcome, and thank you!
Another great video. Best part, no bias, no defending a brand, no belittling of others choice, just raw data! Sure there was some ribbing at the man in gray (devils advocate) but never hostility. Thank you for providing a service to the backpacking/hiking community!
The man is gray is really a voice in my own head!
There is a man in gray in all of us, depending on the subject!
I love that kind of craziness 😂 Thank you for this thorough testing and analysis.
Most welcome!
Amazing as always. I appreciate your thoroughness, knowledge and fascinating points. Thank you.
Big thumbs up. Love the attention to detail in both execution and analysis.
I experience so much joy when I see you have posted!
:)
That was awesome. Answered many questions I had on stove/pot size.
Looking forward to the other videos.
This information is pure gold.
Thank you so much for enabling me to make a significantly more informed choice for my forthcoming travels.
You are very welcome! I am glad if it helps.
This was and vary informative. Thanks for watching the water boil for us.
This has been on my mind lately, happy i found this
Your approach is admirable. Great work.
Thank you so much for all the time and energy spent bringing all of us adventurist much needed and deeply appreciated knowledge.
This is incredible! I've been looking for exactly these kinds of tests and finding other UA-camrs who put like half as much effort into them, and here you are being absolutely exhaustive in covering all of the variables. Thanks so much for your efforts!
Thanks! It is worth it if it helps 👍🏼
Amazing, quality work. These videos help me understand not just gear but physics itself.
Instant subscribe after watching the thoroughness of this set of testing. Time to go watch some of your others.
OH YEAH, MORE SKEPTIC!! I haven't even watched it yet and I love the anticipating feeling of growing more knowledge!!
Great attention to detail! Love your methodology.
I've never seen any of your videos before. For the dedication to precision you deserve a follow. Very good video.
Thumbed up before watching. Loved all the prior content. 🙌
Once again the best channel on UA-cam shows why it's the best😍 I'd be interested to see how a contained "flameless"/windproof system like the MSR Windburner or the Jetboil stack up in a controlled and windy setting. Especially with the weight increases in their systems because of the added heat fins on the pots as well as the insulation materials. Great stuff as always!
Thanks very much! Yah, I've got wind effects planned for Part 2, but that should lead perfectly into a Part 3 on heat exchanger systems like Jetboil and MSR Reactor/Windburner.
@@GearSkeptic I've had a Trangia 25 since 1987, then sold for Trangia 27 Duossal. I tried a Mini Trangia but it's useless in any kind of wind - can't get a boil, wind blows the flame away so weak it's cooling as fast as any heat gets to the pot. I've got a Jetboil Sol Ti from 2012 which solves many of the Trangia's 27 weight issues but removes food cooking versatility. For an overnight 1-2 night scenario vs a 5+ night scenario the alcohol vs gas and the wind losses seems to pivot both towards gas and then.... I simply don't know.
Eventually, I’d like to add in alcohol stoves to the comparison.
@@GearSkeptic Excellent. The "no brainer" is at the extremes of a 1-nighter possibly 2-nighter, when the weight of alcohol fuel + small bottle + burner is substantially less than the weight of a nearly empty canister + burner. It's also a no-brainer at the opposite end of a long 5+day trip when beginning with a full canister weighs less than the alcohol+bottle. The tricky bit is the middle part between the extremes.
Also alcohol stoves very much need a windbreak (tighter usually better) but can't do that so safely with gas canister when under the burner under the pot.
Also we know gas is more efficient with a lower flame but in wind if too low it risks blowing out and there's going to be low-enough optimal flame where the flame is coming out at enough velocity to finish combustion whilst still under the pot. So in your high/medium/low flame tests there's going to be a point when low may become less efficient.
Complex stuff.
I wish toaks or someone would do a pot with heat exchanger fins. Always jealous seeing jetboil dudes boil so fast but the whole jetboil system is heavy af, just need the regular titanium pot with the fins in the bottom.
Very glad to see a new video! Huge fan of the Skeptic™ take!
Excellent video!
Thank you for your thorough analytical evaluation, very very informative. I will use this to purchase a stove burner and pots for my bike packing trip.
Such a great, well documented, and thorough approach. Really flexed my mind wrapping around the concept as a whole and you succinctly got the scientific method across with the summary at the end grounding it to earth. Thanks!
Thank you! I am so glad if any of it can be useful.
Thank you once again for doing our hobby a valuable service.
You are most welcome! I hope it helps.
I recently purchased a FireMaple "Greenpeak" gas stove that is very similar to the MSR Pocket Rocket Deluxe, I also purchased their "FMC-XK6 Aluminum Cookware" that is a single 1L pot equipped with a finned heat exchanger on the bottom of the pot. Last Saturday, I took it out on a 15.3-mile (round-trip) hike to a local park. There was a rather stiff continuous breeze blowing, and as best I could using my body and a plastic trash barrel attempted to negate the breeze as much as possible. I was amazed how fast I was able to get 750ml of water to a boil, cook my ramen with a single serving Spam and spray cheese combination. It was actually an enjoyable experience considering the wind conditions.
As a guy with 30+ yrs. as an HVAC service technician, I was happy to see you devote quite a bit of time to evaporative cooling as it applies to the use of a lid on the pot, and also how it affects the pressure in the gas canister, because it is the evaporation of the liquid to a gas within the canister that causes it to cool - "Boyle's Law".
Thanks for the video, I enjoyed it.
Yah, I am looking forward to being able to test the HX pots in wind!
Oh man, you're lighting up a spark in my engineering endeavors; seeing all those tubes/measurement devices in a residential setting makes me more interested
Fantastic. Great to see you back.
Thank you very much for the best hiking gear reviews and information shares provided by anyone, anywhere. Keep up the outstanding work. It is appreciated.
Thank you! That really means a lot!
I usualy cold soak my meals, but I still watched every bit of your video because it is so satisfying. A big thank you for this!
Amazing work as always, we all really value all your many hours of work & expense doing these reviews. I especially love it when it agrees with all my own much less involved tests! Brs & small pot with foil lid for the win! Thanks again, we appreciate you & always look forward to your content!
Most appreciated, and glad to help. Thanks much!
One of the best tests I have seen on You Tube for anything, well done!
Much appreciated!
Damn this was awesome! Thanks for your attention to detail and planning. Gonna binge a little having discovered your channel. Must say tho, I feel a little smug, not terribly surprised by the results after many decades of camp cooking and stove collecting.
Huzzah! A new series! Looking forward to it!
Great info and explanations of your methods as always. They're the reasons I keep recommending your channel to a variety of people. 🙂👍
Many thanks!
Wow! I like your testing very much. Thanks a lot for the effort - I'm going now to check out the next video of this series.
I love your method, observations and measurements. Hi from Germany.
Greetings, and thanks!
Once again, thank you very much for the thoroughly in depth video. We appreciate it.
Also excellent job on the correct pronunciation for aluminium.
This is the way to test!!! 👍Thanks for some REALLY USEFUL information. Looking forward to the upcoming videos. Love your work!
Thank you much! Very glad to help.
Very informative video. I see myself lowering my flame pattern in the future.
Thank you for answering a lot of the questions I have had about pot size versus flame size when I use my BRS 3000 stove.
Excellent video.
You are most welcome!
This is really amazing. I must admit I skipped back and forth, to get the quick results. Kudos for all the efforts you put in!
I'm only two minutes into the video, but that spreadsheet is a work of art. Liked and subscribed.
Thank you sir. You solve the questions I have anytime when camping. Keep up the good work.
Bravo. This is the best review that I have seen, bar none. It answered all the questions that I had watching other reviews. Thank you.
Thanks! That is much appreciated.
You do great work, your spreadsheet is the single best piece of information that I have ever received from UA-cam!
Thanks! That is very appreciated.
The best I’ve seen anywhere. Thank you for sharing your talent and taking the time to do this.
Thank you! I do appreciate it.
Just excellent. Thank you for the time and effort to make these videos. I’m looking forward to the tests of wind effects, and measures to mitigate them.
It will be Part 2, already in the planning stages!
..and after viewing, I am once again fulfilled with the wisdom of your influence, and appreciate it! You Rock for logic bro!
Very kind of you! Much obliged.
The voice, the hands and the analysis...! :D Great video!
You’ve done it once again! Awesome work, and quite funny too. Thank you!!
Thanks very much!
Thank God someone did this!! This is the exact stuff I've been wondering about to inform my cooking setup choices. THANK YOU! 👍 👍 Awesome video, and keep it up.
Wait, so...I'm not the only one?!? Thanks much, and you are most welcome!
Your channel is vastly underrated. Thanks for sharing the outstanding research with us!
Thanks very much, and you are most welcome!
This is incredible work. I love and greatly appreciate the care taken to ensure bias and error are as reduced as possible. I've been using a medium flame for years with my old snow peaks stove. Time to switch to low flame! You're incredible, thanks again.
But only if wind conditions allow it!
You've done mankind a great service.
Huzzah! You’re back! Looking forward to more videos about cooking dynamics.
Thank you very much for taking the time, effort , energy, and having an immense amount of patience to boil so many pots of water.
This was an excellent video.
Thanks much!
Such a sophisticated test, designed and conducted so scientifically. It really confirmed answers to a lot of questions I always wonder. Great video!
Thank you very much!
Fantastic evaluation study. It appears I have chosen my equipment wisely and use my fuel efficiently. Always thought that "Full Blast" was not a good setting for back country cooking. Thank you!
These videos are so good. I can't wait for you to continue on and cover more and more topics over the years. This is ground breaking work that can be referred to by many others. I think R value and insulation will be a particularly interesting topic in the future. Cheers and hope you have a great weekend!
Thanks very much! Truly appreciated.
This is the nerdiest video on camp cooksets and I’m here for it!
this was perfectly thought out and thoroughly tested. thank you so much.
Thanks! Much appreciated.
Great respect for your comprehensive analysis. I've never used a burner before. We've just eaten food cold while travelling but thought we'd make a change and efficiency is one of the most important factors for me (along with cook-ability). I've gone with the omnilite ti (with silencer) for its ability to burn multiple fuels at high efficiency and quietly (All the efficiency studies are without the silencer how that'll affest it) while also having the ability to simmer.
I then started considering efficiency of the pots. Of course a wider base would increase efficiency but so would a heat exchanger, but the latter at the cost of extra mass so better to just use a wider based pan without a heat exchanger (saving mass, volume, cost, as well as being better at acting as a frying pan). After having these thoughts I find your videos. I haven't actually bought the omnilite ti yet but I'd imagine it would have a similar burn diameter to the pocket rocket. However, with the silencer I don't know what effect it will have as it distributes heat more.
Difficult to make an effective decision when I have no experience and none of the equipment is infront of me, but it does seem to be the case that a visual confirmation of the glow dissipating just before the edge of the pan matches the efficiency sweet-spot. Maybe I'll buy the burner and try it out on pans at home, get a rough visual guide of the glow diameter and then buy pans that are slightly wider than that without heat exchangers.
Do you have any thoughts?
Edit: As we are cooking for three, a larger volume pot of 1.5-2.5L is necessary and so likely to have a larger diameter than your largest pot . . . again making me think that the heat exchanger will be useless.
I haven’t done testing on larger pots, but it is on my list! I am working on heat exchangers now. MSR makes the Reactor in a 1.7L version. By their numbers, it is the most fuel efficient stove made (with reported excellent wind resistance). I’ll be testing the 1L version in my next investigation.
@eptic6355 I've sent an email to primus asking if they have documentation comparing the 2.3L pots with and without heat exchangers to justify the increased mass, volume, and expense. I linked this video pointing out the limited efficiency increases beyond 15cm and questioned whether when using a 20cm diameter pot the gas would retain enough thermal energy to justify a heat exchanger (compared to the sub15cm diameters which probably would).
Something I learned the hard way with the BRS stove is too wide of a pot is really unstable. Lost 1.5 L on a beach backpacking trip with no water when the wind blew it off and got to enjoy hiking 8 miles out the last morning on a half liter. These pots are smaller but still worth considering stability, because having to re-boil a spilled pot weighs a lot and wastes a lot of fuel and water if you're dry camping.
Just another thing to keep in mind, thanks for all the data!
Another excellent scientific comparison.
Thank you so much for your time and effort !!!
...I also appreciate the sense of humor...
My pleasure! I hope some of it is useful.
I have been looking forward to this video. With all that you have covered here, I was beginning to think you could not have left anything to cover in part 2. Having said that, I was not surprised by the additional variables you came up with. Thank you for this
My pleasure, sir. Hope it can help!
Part 2 will be on wind effects. I'm thinking wind may change some of these recommendations. Part 3 is planned for heat exchanger systems (which will expand on wind effects). Beyond that, I'd like to check aluminum vs. titanium vs. steel, and maybe a test set using larger pots to see if big burners turn out to be better there.
Now, I just need 30-hour days to get it all done!
I watch the video, I'm amazed. Whenever an Idea pops in the back in my mind, you continue to mention and - that's even more awesome - measuring! it instead of speculating 😅 almost scary. Then I start thinking about Wind Effects, take a look at your Channel and see this has become an entire Series, covering everything from Wind effects, over Windscreens to Heat exchangers. THIS is why I still love UA-cam! Hope you are doing well 👌🏼 Thank you so much
Thank you for the kind words! I appreciate them very much.
Very interesting stuff! Thank you so much for the time and effort that would have been involved with all of these tests. You're doing the community a massive favour! If your sanity can stand it (and I assume a paired down pot selection will help) then I'll be really interested to see the effect of breezy conditions in the wind tests
Definitely! Wind effects will be Part 2. Already working on stove selection, and some windscreens.
I greatly appreciate the level of thought and thoroughness that was put into this test, but also the sheer amount of work of going through that procedure 72 times! Also one other thing to note on weight efficiency - on trips that are shorter than 18 full boils - it may actually be more weight efficient to put to the stove on high flame, since you will be carrying less fuel back home in the end, i.e. less weight on the back. Looking forward to a next installment about container materials and wind influence!
The amount of detail and break down is exactly why I subscribed. You're not a dummy, and the type of break down you did was amazing.
Thanks much and welcome aboard! ;)
Wow! Level: LEGEND.
I am looking forward to a chapter which will reveal the efficiency under wind.
The only UA-camr that dose this kind of amazing work Thank you
Much appreciated! Thank you.
Awesome stuff!! As an engineer I love everything about this. Definitely going to subscribe and watch through all your previous videos. Thanks for the content and hope you're able to continue to churn out more!!
Thanks very much! Glad to have you aboard :)
awesome! this has been the kind of analysis my mind has always wanted to perform. and, it reaffirms what i have found in the field: lower flame, smaller pot, foil lid. i also use the foil as a windscreen/heat container. glad someone has time and $ to do this stuff.
Thanks, and I'm very glad to help! So, it turns out I'm not the only one ;)
Brilliant proper engineering experiment for us UL backpackers .... You must be the guy behind Rockwells Turbo Encabulator version 1 and 2 research efforts ! Genius work that will live in infamy.
i like your channel.
simple and straightforward
Thank you!
Thank you again for a spectacular analysis!! Feels good knowing that I was already using one of the most efficient setups! No extra gear I need to buy!
Perfect! ;)
The amount of hard work and thoroughness you put into your videos is impressive. Very few channels are like this, more akin to a peer-reviewed article than anything else. I love it! I also love hiking - so this channel just earned a new subscriber! Keep it up!!
Thanks very much! Most kind of you and much appreciated.
I found a small pocket of reason and rationality, subscribed 🙏
Thank you! That is much appreciated.
Wow; You came through with superb analysis and tests. Thank you for all the hard work you put into making these videos. I look forward to future thoughts on Shelter/clothing systems and getting into R values and the likes.
PS: Thank you for the electrolyte/hydration series. Implementing electrolytes and hydration per your recommendations has prevented me from getting a headache after my monthly USPSA competitions. Your knowledge and research may literally save me a headache every month for the rest of my life!
Thank you so much! I am always made glad if it helps!
God, I love science. It's refreshing to see non-truncated graphs zoomed in on the last decimal to skew reality. Nice work!
Amazing. Wonderful. Never stop, please. A salve to my questioning mind.
Most humbling. Thanks!
This video is really well done! It's fantastic how much you go into detail here and really include every conceivable parameter. In this way, you dispel many a "supposed truth". I have never seen anything like it anywhere!
Thanks! I hope it helps.
Really interesting stuff, answering all the questions that bug you when waiting for your water to boil! I thought the lid test was the most interesting, I might save a few grams and leave that at home!
Another great video challenging the established norms in the backpacking community. This gives some real food for thought when deciding on cook kit between overnighters and longer section hikes. We all really appritiate your hard work and I personally really look forward to your next installment on wind screens.
Thanks! That is much appreciated.
My early guess is that windscreens will make small stove/pot systems look more better than wide ones (if that makes sense).
@@GearSkeptic I second that hypothesis but really look forward to seeing the results!
I am always wondering about the effiency of the gas stove (small, medium, wide) and your video provide clear answer to these questions. Thank you.
It made my day when I saw you dropped another video. I was expecting a stove/pot efficiency material since you last mentioned the subject in your previous update video.
Now, I need to update my _ ultralight kitchen system_ and was waiting on your study before making any purchases I'd end up regretting. This video gave me some answers and taught me (for that I thank you, you're my favorite channel for a good reason) but now I HAVE NEVER WANTED MORE A PART 2 than this time.
I have so many more questions now, specially after reading how poor the BRS3000T performs on altitude and with high winds.
Thanks for the work and research you put into this, you're a gift to the Ultralight community.
Thanks very much! Planning on Part 2 Wind Effects is in the works!
Love your channel! I have been learning a lot and will be using some of this knowledge to help my group hiking the JMT
Awesome, and thanks!
Well done. Great video for gram weenie's and budget conscious hikers. Your attention to detail and ability to break it down in an easy to understand format is appreciated.
Thank you! I appreciate that.
You dropped a video debunking camp stoves and lids, Jim Lill dropped a video debunking guitar tone and recording. Lots of scientific testing, all in the same day. I'm in heaven.