I had personally been trying to do comparison tests before I came across your channel. You've saved me a lot of time. Your tests are also way more precise than my own. Much appreciated!
I cannot express the level of gratitude and appreciation I have for your content! The scientific comparisons and breakdowns are invaluable. You're amazing!
I spend hours a day on YT, but no one earns my loyalty more than GearSkeptic. It's nearly midnight here and I'm tired as a dog, but god damn I'll always stay up for this guy's videos.
@@GearSkeptic It is quite funny reading that comment, but you know what? Couple of weeks ago when I was finishing 250km hike on New Zealand , what was I doing until late at night in a hut cracking in the wind? Watching video about filtering water from GearSceptic. :D. I just find it so interesting and that you really take into account nearly all options. Thanks a lot and I can't wait to see it in the wind. After that I will finally hopefully make a decision about my new cooker as I am still using my Primus Omnilite TI which is super cheap to run but rather bulky and quite tricky to operate.
OMG, I have to wait until Fall to see the wind results? You’re Killin Me Smalls! Yet another great video, excellent job! I guess I’ll have to wait for Part 5. It might be good to show a cost comparison of each option.
Though I'm bummed we have to wait so long for the wind tests, his mental state in this video leads me to believe maybe some time away from the carbon monoxide will do@@GearSkeptic well.
This series makes my inner gear geek go into full thrill mode. The testing methodology was excellent at the get-go in episode 1, and this episode's double-check that demonstrated near-perfect adherence to the margin of error was a "wow" moment I usually can't offer a UA-camr. Cool! Awesome work GearSkeptic! (SUPER curious about the with-wind results comparing non-hx to hx in the future but this is a thrill for another day).
Dragging in after a long day at work...notification of a new GearSkeptic video produced a rush of endorphins that brought me back to the land of the living.......Thanks a million for another great video ....much appreciation...!!!!
doing the Lord's work lol, well done. pretty sure UA-cam sent me here after watching a video where a guy used a Soto Amicus and went through 2 canisters and into a 3rd while his partner was still on their first canister using a Jetboil Minimo. These setups really seem to shine over long-haul scenarios where the efficiency really pays off. Anyway, thanks for sharing!
I was anxiously waiting for this one! I ended up going with the Soto Windmaster + FireMaple Petrel for my PCT section hike thanks to FlatCat Gear's testing. I absolutely expect windy and cold conditions, which make the BRS worthless.
It’ll be interesting to see how HX systems compare to conventional pots WITH windscreens in moving air, from both a performance and weight efficiency standpoint.
@@GearSkeptic It's also worth taking into account simplicity. Windscreens are fiddly, and it's an extra thing to buy and carry. I already had a Soto Windmaster, so adding just an $18 HX pot for a full wind resistant system and not having to fiddle with anything else is quite ideal.
Thanks as always for your hard and careful work put into these. Regarding the theory that larger burners to pot gaps may be more efficient. This could be tested with the Petrel by trying both ways, with the stove inset in the slots, compared against the stove arms holding the outer flux ring. Absolute water temperature wouldn't matter, as only delta g/boil is of interest. The results could also always be easily converted to any water temperature using specific heat. Normal stove on flat bottom pots feature narrower gaps, which might be a clue that narrow gaps aren't inherently penalizing. On the other hand, the flux rings could choke out air fuel when hot, necessitating a larger gap compared to a flat bottom pot that these stoves are typically designed for. There may be a trade off at play with Hx pots: narrower gap more effective in wind, taller gap without. I used a Stash pot on a pocket rocket deluxe all season in '23 (~ 30 days) and in wind, a narrower gap seems like it would work better just judging by the flame contact with the pot bottom.
@@GearSkeptic It's hiking season! I fully understand your packing up the tools. Thanks again. I've posted my thoughts and technical analysis over on Backpacking Light
I have tried the Petrel/Windmaster option and it starts and heats just fine in 20 mph+ winds. Very much looking forward to how it does in terms of fuel efficiency when you add wind. Thank you for the great work you are doing!
Awesome stuff as usual. Former ultralight zealot here. In recent years i find myself using more and more fuel, especially if im with my wife. If im in the high country, I am known to enjoy a hot shower every few days. So I bring a large hx pot (1.5l) and dump it into a 3l bladder and its enough for my wife and I to wash ourselves. We also do at least 2 cups of instant coffee or tea in the am and maybe a warm up cup of chicken noodle before dinner. Very useful after a long hard, probably wet day to get some salt and heat down the gullet. I'm ambivalent to breakfast and lunch, usually one or the other preferring to eat small things more frequently then a banger hot dinner, many times with fish and a (gasp) frying pan. Desert cooking needs are about half of my high country needs. Cold bath, less food. For a guy like me I've switched to HX pots as they are great for high use people like me. If im going ultra ultra light ill bring my tiny ti pot and a small cannister and it will last me up to 5 days. If im melting snow, white gas is the is the only solution. Omnilite ti is the one for me. Alas, even amongs an army of me, I have no less than 6 different systems depending on the trip. They all have thier pluses and minuses.
Undoubtedly my favorite review chanel. Always my UA-cam favorite notification! You are quite literally one of my go to's when hiking. I love the basic and yet scientific approach taken to our real world struggles and frustrations on the trail. I know quality doesn't come quickly but for all our sakes on the next review, hurry every chance you get.!!!!!!
Thanks very much! That means a great deal. I’m always working on some part of one of several possible upcoming projects. Stupid real life has a way of interfering, though… 😏
Thanks for awesome analysis. I also use Soto Windmaster triflex with Petrel. Here I learned that what I thought was the optimal small stove gap is an efficiency penalty. But in wind? Having the stove head tucked into the HE cavity surely helps some? Even if the wind blows the close flame off the pot, the flame must pass through the HE fins. I look forward to your wind testing. Here's an idea: in calm conditions, do NOT tuck the stove support arms into the Petrel channels, to increase the stove-pot gap, boosting efficiency. In wind, go ahead and tuck it close. Maybe I can modify the Petrel's channels to still lock the stove on, but not place the burner so close to the bottom of the pot. I also learned that my preference for HE pots is entirely based on what amount to thermodynamic aesthetics and doesn't actually save me any weight, for my typical use cases. At least in no wind.
And without the science, my dad insists we should bring a jet boil for larger groups- clearly there is something to that! thanks for the great video! Looking forward to wind testing!
I have a BRS+750ml pot for my day-pack setup for occasional or emergency use. I have a JetBoil for planned trips for regular use. Since I have both ends of this spectrum I’m thankful you did all this work! You’ve made me realize I should carry my lightweight windscreen with my BRA setup and could use it on short trips. You’ve also helped me feel a bit better about the added initial cost of the JetBoil! Thanks again for this series!
Thank you for being so thorough and scientific once again! I do have both Toaks/BRS and Stash pot/Windmaster system, I keep going to Stash pot/Windmaster. Granted it doesn’t win on weight, but I have burnt my fingers and spilled the Toaks cup once too many on windy days 😅
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When I looked at the question of which boiler setup to buy for solo and eventually gave up and bought the Stash as a nicely integrated system. I am quite happy with the choice! I mostly use it in the tent vestibule, so wind isn't a huge problem. But a wind screen might help for lunch. I think it's a worthwhile trade-off for the boil time, but to each their own. Great test!
Excellent as usual. I had been suspecting that the HX pots weren’t worth the additional weight, but hadn’t thought about whether they might be more worthwhile to larger volume users. Maybe they will redeem themselves a little when wind comes back into the picture. Can’t wait. Thanks again for your diligence.
Awesome video!!. One of the side effects of Heat Exchange Systems is that it can scorch certain types of food that are too starchy or with high sugar content.
Another great video. In a future video, I'd like to see a comparison between heat exchangers and tight windscreens which redirect the exhaust around the outside of the pot (giving an extra opportunity to capture the heat - acting like a secondary heat exchanger of sorts), and compared to kelly kettles which do the same but on the inside of the pot - and of course combinations of heat exchangers with the windscreens.
I have been using the Fire Maple XT1.8L kettle with the Zen pot stand with alcohol burners for the last year. It is a good combination because the prongs on the pot stand fit inside the heat exchanger ring making it wind resistant and stable. There is no flame spill around the edge of kettle at all. The Zen pot stand has adjustable levels for burners such as the Trangia, Evernew Titanium and Toaks Siphon making it easy to find the “sweet spot” for various alcohol burners.
Always great to see another video. Ive see people shove a BRS in the fins on the Stash so I'd be curious to know how that would change things versus the Petrel and a BRS. Also you've got me curious to see you do testing on the theory of burner height too. Something like ripping the wings off a BRS and the using an adjustable lab stand to change the height of the pot over the BRS. Maybe with the Stash, Petrel, Toaks 550, and the 118. As always though great work!
I have an optimus terra HE pot .9 liter. When paired with a MSR pocket rocket deluxe it boils 2 cups of water in around 1.5 minutes at medium flame. My toaks 750ml on the same stove with low or medium flame taked 3.5 - 4 minutes to boil. On a recent 14 day backpacking trip I carried the Optimus terra he pot for the first week when I was cooking for 2. During the second week I carried a MSR Talon 1 liter pot (titanium and significantly lighter) and cooked for one. I found that when I was hungry and preparing meals (I cook morning and evening) the time difference was notable and I much preferred the quicker boil. Less trying to think of something to do while I waited for water to boil. Also less boiled over pots because I started something during the boil and the pot would beat me. I much preferred the HE pot and faster boil times even with a 4oz - 6oz. penalty. It seems that the Optimus HE pot over the MSR pocket rocket deluxe hits a sweet spot. Since it has no slots for the legs there is a greater burner to pot distance which might make it considerably more efficient. In all my unscientific use of the system I much prefer it to any other pot combination including my toaks & bsr combination. I found that when you have hiked in the rain or endured cool temperatures during the day getting a warm meal faster makes a huge psychological difference. Incidentally I read one review comparing stove systems that found the best combination was an MSR pocket rocked deluxe stove with an oilcamp HX 1 liter pot. Beating out the jetboil in the tests for speed and efficiency. I am planning a through hike next year and am trying to decide on my stove system. I like the HE pot for speed more than efficiency. I have just purchased the Petrel pot to see if I like that in combination with the MSR pocket rocket deluxe as well. Decisions, Decisions, Decisions.
Cant wait to see a future iteration where the reactor might shine, this beeing low temperatures, mountaneering and a little snow melting scenarios. Complication would be that we start going into the realm of remote and inverted canister systems as well... good luck and as aways thank you for the amazing content!
Your observation about distance of burner from pot and its effect on efficiency is interesting. You have likely noted that Fire Maple has paired their newer Hornet II (non-regulated) stove with their Petrel pot. The distance between the burner and the pot is easily twice as far as that between the Soto with triplex pot supports. I have to wonder what difference that distance will make in efficiency. You might come close to replicating by not inserting the pot supports of the Soto into the grooves of the Petrel pot bottom. I bought the Hornet II and Petrel pot as well as one of the FlatCatGear windscreens made to fit the Hornet II stoves. It is ingenious but simple and lightweight. I haven’t tested it yet as a system in windy conditions but anticipate, based upon Jon’s tests for the effects of wind on fuel consumption, that it will be a very efficient solution in real world conditions which very often include some wind. My goal is to find the lightest but very efficient stove/pot system that will allow me to extend a single fuel canister over a period of about five to six days while heating water at least twice per day for breakfast and supper. Too, for a very few additional ounces on my back, I will accept that weight penalty to realize the savings in cost through a reduction in grams per heating event of my water. For me, speed is not a factor as long as I can achieve my goal of adequately heated water inside of about 6 minutes or so. I apply that same metric to heating with alcohol stoves too. I do think we viewers will be “blown away” 😊 by the degree of efficiency of an HX pot with more protected fins, such as the Petrel or the kettle, over a pot such as the Stash with a more open base, especially when combined with a nested stove such as the Soto Windmaster with the triplex pot support . See you in the Fall.
Very interesting. I decided to test out your theory on the burner to pot gap using the Petrel and Soto Windmaster. With the windmaster legs in the pot slots I boiled 500g of water in 5mins 10 using 6.5g of gas. With the pot sat directly on top of the legs it boiled 40 secs faster and used on average 1.0g less per boil. Start temperature, burner level and conditions were kept the same. I do like the Petrel and Windmaster combo
Love it!!! Can’t wait for the wind results in the fall. In the meantime, maybe a video experimenting with distance between burner head & pot. Another idea would be to compare different brands of fuel for burn temperature and if the air/ fuel mixture of different stoves affects the burn temp. Just thinking out loud. Regardless, I’ll watch whatever you produce!! Thank you very much all you do.
You could test the flame gap theory with the Petrel. Run it with the pot supports in the slots and then with it not in the slots. Everything remains the same, except the gap.
Something I'm curious about is a different design on the heat exchangers. A coiled exchanger design should retain most of its efficiency and reduce the effect of wind. You also discussed how often people resupply, resupplying often is not efficient and adds steps. I'm one of those oddballs that has no issue going a month without going to town.
Yet another great episode in the quest for the holy boil. Meanwhile I also did some testing myself. Not as thorough as you, I did use a thermometer in the beginning but quickly discovered that my tap water is an almost constant 18 C. I also did not stop at the 200 F (93 C) mark but just did a visual check on boiling as that is what I will do in real life. Results are not too different from yours. My big 1.4 l HX pot boils 415 ml water using 4.9 grams of 80/20 isobutane/propane mix (the Primus brand) but using one of these cheap butane cylinders (these are sold over here as fuel for weed burners very cheaply) that same boil (after cooling down everything) uses only 4.5 grams of butane. Taking into account that the butane cylinder is lighter (327 grams, 227 grams gas) than the Primus one (380 grams, 230 grams of gas) this could be a good option for a summer holiday. As a plus, I find these cylinders easier to connect (push & twist) with less possibility for spoiling fuel when doing so. When your shop getting too warm, this might be a nice thing to test: what is the best fuel for a summer trip 😁😁😁
Great review. I just received the Petrel and I did quick tests with brs300 and pocket rocket 2, and I had 4gr for 500gr water. Also they ship a set where they have Hornet stove which has pretty high distance to the pot. So I think stove choice is making a difference for Petrel.
I had looked at HX pots extensively and found most of the pots you highlighted. One concern I have, which is way outside the scope of your video, is lead and cadmium contamination in the cheap pots being imported from low and middle income countries. There's been a few research studies that have found lead leaching from products that are imported into North America, through websites like Amazon or Ali Express. Since the pots are not sold directly in the US or Canada, these pots don't need to meet the regulations of those countries. In the end - I ended up going with titanium pots made in Japan. :)
I enjoyed this video as I’ve been looking into heat exchanger pots and stove combos in the future I’d love to see a comparison on heat exchanger setups vs wind shielded setups and fuel use. You may also want to check out the Bulin stove and pot combo the fins on the bottom of the pot are longer and covered with an additional cup piece on the bottom of the pot I’d be interested to see the correlation of the exchanger pots and their types of fins and the length of the fins.
I'm using an Olicamp XTS with a Trangia which has a diy simmer ring made from the top section of a soda can. Pot is held up by a two piece punched titanium sheet material that interlocks to work also as a windscreen. I have the canisters and a brs 3000 stove but I get the sense that with the yellow Heet and the heat exchanger along with the simmer ring I'm saving money. Hoping when I have a few minutes I could crunch the numbers to check. I'll have to run through this video a second time to catch those numbers. I appreciate the informative work you're doing!
Your videos are just so damn great. You’ve piqued my inner nerd and that’s also where I found my inner stupid. I’m trying to figure out the math on my own experiment. I’m using three different stoves under two different cups to evaluate boiling 2 cups of water. I know the weight of the stoves and cups and I know how long it takes to boil. I’m just not sure of the math to compare time to weight to figure out which makes the most sense to carry. Guidance for the dumb? THANK YOU!
thanks so much for the video, I think i'll be leaving my heat exchanger system in the bug out bag and taking my brs on hiking trips for the foreseeable future. I did 2x boils a day on my AT hike for coffee and dinner and definitely enjoyed the speed efficiency of the heat exchanger but in future endeavours I think a lower pack weight is worth a few extra minutes of cook time. Although probably an odd use case, the carryover heat exchange from the heat exchanger systems does help when actually cooking in a pot rather than just boiling water for a freeze dried meal
Very nice, I always wondered when it is worth carrying the extra weight. Something I was missing tho: As far as I know these HX system where originally developed for high alpine (winter) rockclimbing/summiting. So basically melting snow fast where time outweighs weight and volume. They were never ment for solo overnighters.
Nice video. Given how wide the ring on the kettle is and how big the msr deluxe, I can imagine that its simply oxygen starved. As an small aside: you can use your trekking pole to accurately messure weights. Simply put what you want to measure (eg. the cannister) into the handstraps and see where the balance point is. Make a few markings before on the pole and especially in the >300g range you can get very precise measurements.
Another very Skeptically great video. I was curious if there was a significant fuel loss between burners when removing from the canister. That little pop always makes me wonder... Looking forward to the next GearSkeptic video.
I keep my external valve on the can while weighing and during tests, so there is no loss of gas with that little “pop” as you say. I suppose I could just try taking a stove on and off repeatedly and then measure the can to see if it is enough to tell.
Very interesting video. I have been using and comparing stoves for a couple of years, including Stash. Because I want a fuel efficient stove on my longer hikes. I have come to the same conclusion that the Stash is very fuel efficient. I put a Optimus Clip-On windscreen on the canister to get better performance in windy conditions.
Update after going through the San Jacintos during a 70 mph windstorm. The FireMaple system worked great, the Soto lit and boiled in the typical time. By comparison, I couldn’t get either of my lighters to ignite inside my tent (I was trying to melt guy line cord I had cut). I believe if I didn’t have a stove with a self igniter hidden inside the HX pot I would have been in trouble. These were extreme conditions of course, I got frostbite on my feet and lips, but worth noting.
Wow. Amazing data capture. I recently bought the Petzel to test with my super efficient DIY alcohol burners. I won't do anything close to your rigor. But hopefully my tests will help determine if the Petzel is a good option for alcohol burners. Video in a few days. TomLovesDIY
Excellent video again and look forward to the wind tests. Some random thoughts: - On residual heat. I've read recommendations to boil water at least a minute and more at altitude. Also, a lot of non-freeze-dried (and a lot cheaper) food recommends boiling for at least a couple of minutes. I rarely do that but I'll at least let it boil for a short time before turning off the stove. When cooking that way a few seconds before the stove go out and get cold isn't wasted IMO. - I used a canister stove for the first weeks of an AT thruhike and agree that shelters can be great wind shield but I also found that even inside a shelter or on a table close to the shelter it doesn't take a lot of wind before it affects boil times. I love the size and convenience of these stoves but on a longer hike it's often difficult to know if one canister is enough to the next resupply and it's not possible to add "slightly more" fuel like you can with a white gas stove. On the PCT you also have the added problem that you might have to melt snow in some sections.
All good thoughts. I did a series on Backcountry Water Treatment. Part 1 was on boiling vs Pasteurization. It addresses the issue of “boiling for 1 full minute” in the mountains. Also, there is discussion about what you can use pasteurized water for (you are right that dehydrated meals require “cooking” while freeze-dried only needs pour-and-mix).
Thanks for the reply. Thought I'd watched all your videos but must have skipped the boil-one (had watched the chemical treatment one though as I've used chemical treatment a lot). Turns out I've wasted fuel over the years, but since I use almost only dehydrated meals it could have been worse! I've looked at dehydrated vs freeze dried and weight-wise it's not that much saved while money-wise on a five months thruhike it's quite a difference. Dehydrated mostly require longer prepare times, but I'm usually able to find meals that don't require more than 10 minutes although a couple of minutes extra usually helps. On a non-extreme weather day, I'll start boiling(!) water as soon as I stop for the night and just manage to set up the tent before the water is ready. Then after adding the meal and stirring a bit I have time to unpack my stuff and do some chores and the meal is basically ready. Of course, adding the meal to the water immediately lowers the temp somewhat and I'll let the stove run for maybe half a minute more and maybe waste some fuel but hopefully also help the rehydration. Anyway, thanks for all the videos and I'll try to reduce fuel consumption at least a little from now.
Very interesting episode since I’ve just been down the rabbit hole of buying and trying pots. And maybe it’s not over. I am a fan of that Firemaple kettle, it was very efficient. Ultimately tho I took it out of the kit because its diameter isn’t great in the pack. Even worse with the nesting pot and pan and despite a large size didn’t allow a gas bottle and Soto burner inside and still close the lid(s). I’ve now got a titanium small kettle from evernew and a 1 litre pasta pot. Fits everything inside while easy to pack. I have noticed I’m not going to tick every box. No one does titanium with heat exchangers, I don’t know why, and none have the versatility of being able to go from gas to campfire or twig stove. I’ve customised my pasta pot with a Billy wire so I could hang it over a campfire if need be. Nothing saves gas better than a folding twig stove.
machining and manufacturing titanium parts is significantly harder than aluminum. I suspect we will see more titanium products in the near future as 3d printing titanium is relatively popular and 3d printing allows for more complex HX designs
Titanium has relatively poor heat transfer, though. That’s probably a reason why you don’t see those. Good point about using over a campfire. Regular pots can be very versatile.
Something that I am curious about: how much CO (carbonmonoxide) do these different hx systems produce. And is there a correlation with efficiency and amount of CO produced? My hx kettle (same kettle as you tested) always trips my CO alarm in my camper and the MSR reactor is notorious for producing lots op CO which makes these stoves more dangerous inside tents
I think its not too long until we'll see HX systems that weigh less than a toaks 550 + brs hit the market. I made one, and have been using it for a few years now; so that shows its technically possible. And im not even that kind of engineer, so im sure a company with true proffesionals could get it to the point where its economicalky viable too!
I'm testing out a heat exchanger pot in hopes it will solve the wind problem. I'll gladly take a few extra ounces if it significantly simplifies my cook kit.
Agreed. Fins should be way less efficient than capturing heat along the sides of the pot, while side-heating also weighs much less. Siverfire appears short on specs though? Weight? Volume? And couldn't find the mini on their website.
I noticed the pot with the add on HX unit had a black base. I wonder how the Reactor might behave with it or if you painted the bottom of a pot with black BBQ paint.
One possibly overlooked variable, on the MSR wrap-around: lowering the exchanger, so that it acts as a chimney/wind guard/flame catcher. It won't have as much area in contact with the pot, but it could possibly capture and force more of the hot efflux from the burner to travel up the wall, rather than around the exchanger. I know you tested this on previous videos, but the gaps on those devices were, in my opinion, too small to function, and the MSR had a chance of actually working.
If you see the action shots, I did have the exchanger pulled down below the bottom of the pot (per MSR’s instructions). I think a bigger problem is the relatively small burner. With the HX around the outside of the pot, it is farther away from any flame or hot spot. Also, with only 415mL, that larger pot was relatively empty. The water line inside was low. Other HX conduct through the bottom, so that’s not so much of a problem, but the outside HX only conducts through the sides. I do want to try more things with it, to see how well it can work.
Hypothesis, one could probably take the Petrel pot and not use those slots for the stove arms, increasing the gap and allowing the flame to develop in the center of the pot, and possibly increasing efficiency. (Possible downside instability.)
I was hoping to see my Optimus Terra Weekend HE .95L pot tested. My guess it is not a common option in the US. I use it with a SOTO Micro Regulator stove.
Great channel. Unsolicited ask: Oxygen transfer rate (OTR) on name brand odor barrier bags! Aside from the empirical testing, also a dog sniff review at a local dog park or similar?
Great job 👏 I use a Fire Maple remote titanium stove that fits inside of the fins of the 1 liter Fire Maple heat exchanger pot at low heat A large gas canister gives me an extended time of simmering cooking food like lentils . I don’t understand why you did not use a single stove head throughout the entire testing This would have kept the flame distance at a constant Also the stove weight as a constant to compare the final system weight savings Thanks
The petrel could be used with the stove supports in the slots for a small separation, or rotated 60deg to have a larger separation. I'd bet it has worse wind performance but might be more efficient without wind.
And how would the Petrol do if the cut-outs were not used? The distance would be increased by at least 10mm putting it inline with the other HX pots. Which would apparently increase its effectiveness with no wind.
Curious to know if you tried settling the Petrel on the fingers of the Soto (as opposed to locking them into the recessed slots) to see if the increased gap made a difference
I think it'd be nice to see you compare titanium and aluminum (and steel, as the middle option between "cheap" and "durable"). Titanium's heat transfer isn't the best.
Been watching your videos about stoves and water treatment and I was surprised how huge the effect of wind was on performance of stoves, even at rather low speeds. Knowing that windshields are not the topic of this video I would love to see you test out the effectiveness of a simple sheet of aluminum foil or folded foil as an external wind shield, laid around the container. I would like to guess that it should eliminate most wind effects on the flame, but you never know until you get someone to try it out in the most overly scientific way possible...
Really makes me wonder: how close are we to thermodynamic limit with all this gear? I mean, what is the lowest theoretical amount of gas needed to boil a cup of water? And can we quantify different types of losses between this theoretical limit and real world equipment?
@@FlatCatGear Thanks, 3.7 vs 4.17 is much closer than I would've expected, it means only 13% losses for the best tested solution. And that's includes heating the vessel, evaporation, radiation and hot gases escaping around the cup.
@@rotors_taker_0h Now, the parameters that I gave you is what I use to test. GearSkeptic uses a 415 ml volume and a 200 F end point. If he starts at a water temperature of 45 F then a 100% fuel efficiency would correspond to 3.31 g of isobutane.
You talk about a bigger gap between the flame and a pot. That made me thing about high end restaurant stoves. They have massive gaps between the port and the burner compaired to stove tops in a house. So You could ask one of those manufacturers why that is.
It's for wider and more gentle distribution of heat load. Eliminates hot spots on pots and pans and applies the heat across the pan. Restaurants don't care about fuel efficiency in stoves. More about production efficiency. I do think almost 100% of backpacking stoves are too close to the pot. Notable exceptions being the MSR Dragonfly and a few others. Its a compromise. Ideal distance vs wind.
@@UnitedElectric Well the more fuel effient a burn pot combination is the less heat is being pumped into your kitchen. Before airconditioning kitchens were stupid hot. Even now with airconditioning some kitchens switch to induction to battle the waste heat problem. So profesional stoves do care about fuel efficiency.
I hiked with a Stash user and was shocked at how slow theirs boiled water compared to Soto Anicus and Toaks 750ml. I was done drinking coffee I had made and they just got to a boil. Too bulky, too expensive and too slow to be of any use IMO.
Thank you for all these tests! I wonder how a self-made caldera cone would perform, that hugs the upper side of the pot near the folded rim of the mug/pan and whereby the cone rests with cutouts in the cone, on the arms of the burner. Or al caldera cone wind screen where the upper holes are not merely cutouts, but that they are folded lips so it hangs/rests from the upper edge of the pot so you can use smaller diameter burners legs with bigger diameter pots. So that the cone doesn't need to rest on the legs of the burner. This makes me curious how this would fit in with your data since a caldera cone is kind of the unicorn for alcohol stoves, giving them superior wind protection and allows the sides of the pot to exchange heat, and doing all this for way less grams than a heat exchanger ring.
For the most part, yes. I do regular spot checks of accuracy throughout the testing (and sometimes extra if something looks odd). This has yielded a pretty tight range and a relatively small margin of error.
If you're hiking with a group and sharing resources, wouldn't you want a larger pot so that you can boil the group's water all at once? So the 92 boils metric is perhaps inaccurate b/c the weight and boil time is going to be different.
So... Any chance we could get a light and sound comparison for the HX systems? I like to be out in nature to be a part of it and sometimes I just bring "no cook" options for food so I don't disturb the stillness to much. But some of these look like they could be a good middle option
![АЛАУДИНОВ у Скабеевой: эти их ВСУ нас НЕ ДОГОНЯТ 😁 [Пародия]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/an0anqU4WGQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I had personally been trying to do comparison tests before I came across your channel. You've saved me a lot of time. Your tests are also way more precise than my own. Much appreciated!
I cannot express the level of gratitude and appreciation I have for your content! The scientific comparisons and breakdowns are invaluable. You're amazing!
Thanks very much! It is appreciated and I am glad if it can help.
I spend hours a day on YT, but no one earns my loyalty more than GearSkeptic. It's nearly midnight here and I'm tired as a dog, but god damn I'll always stay up for this guy's videos.
That’s awesome! But, I think most people would say my videos are more likely to put them to sleep 😵💫
@@GearSkeptic It is quite funny reading that comment, but you know what? Couple of weeks ago when I was finishing 250km hike on New Zealand , what was I doing until late at night in a hut cracking in the wind? Watching video about filtering water from GearSceptic. :D. I just find it so interesting and that you really take into account nearly all options. Thanks a lot and I can't wait to see it in the wind. After that I will finally hopefully make a decision about my new cooker as I am still using my Primus Omnilite TI which is super cheap to run but rather bulky and quite tricky to operate.
OMG, I have to wait until Fall to see the wind results? You’re Killin Me Smalls! Yet another great video, excellent job! I guess I’ll have to wait for Part 5. It might be good to show a cost comparison of each option.
Good idea. When I’m able to do an “overall” performance including wind, I can bring in system prices, too.
Though I'm bummed we have to wait so long for the wind tests, his mental state in this video leads me to believe maybe some time away from the carbon monoxide will do@@GearSkeptic well.
Yeah, heat exchangers make a huge difference in windy conditions.
What about MSR's wrapped heat exchanger - it works as a windshield itself.
This series makes my inner gear geek go into full thrill mode. The testing methodology was excellent at the get-go in episode 1, and this episode's double-check that demonstrated near-perfect adherence to the margin of error was a "wow" moment I usually can't offer a UA-camr. Cool! Awesome work GearSkeptic! (SUPER curious about the with-wind results comparing non-hx to hx in the future but this is a thrill for another day).
Thanks very much! Most appreciated.
When I do the wind testing, there will be third-party windscreens involved, as well.
Thanks for all your many hours of hard work and expense bringing this information to us
You are most welcome!
Just as I finish ALL of gear skeptics videos, another emerges.
Consider yourself lucky. Now you wait with the rest of us
Instant click. Best reviewer anywhere.
Dragging in after a long day at work...notification of a new GearSkeptic video produced a rush of endorphins that brought me back to the land of the living.......Thanks a million for another great video ....much appreciation...!!!!
doing the Lord's work lol, well done. pretty sure UA-cam sent me here after watching a video where a guy used a Soto Amicus and went through 2 canisters and into a 3rd while his partner was still on their first canister using a Jetboil Minimo. These setups really seem to shine over long-haul scenarios where the efficiency really pays off. Anyway, thanks for sharing!
I was anxiously waiting for this one! I ended up going with the Soto Windmaster + FireMaple Petrel for my PCT section hike thanks to FlatCat Gear's testing. I absolutely expect windy and cold conditions, which make the BRS worthless.
It’ll be interesting to see how HX systems compare to conventional pots WITH windscreens in moving air, from both a performance and weight efficiency standpoint.
@@GearSkeptic It's also worth taking into account simplicity. Windscreens are fiddly, and it's an extra thing to buy and carry. I already had a Soto Windmaster, so adding just an $18 HX pot for a full wind resistant system and not having to fiddle with anything else is quite ideal.
Thanks as always for your hard and careful work put into these.
Regarding the theory that larger burners to pot gaps may be more efficient. This could be tested with the Petrel by trying both ways, with the stove inset in the slots, compared against the stove arms holding the outer flux ring. Absolute water temperature wouldn't matter, as only delta g/boil is of interest. The results could also always be easily converted to any water temperature using specific heat.
Normal stove on flat bottom pots feature narrower gaps, which might be a clue that narrow gaps aren't inherently penalizing. On the other hand, the flux rings could choke out air fuel when hot, necessitating a larger gap compared to a flat bottom pot that these stoves are typically designed for. There may be a trade off at play with Hx pots: narrower gap more effective in wind, taller gap without. I used a Stash pot on a pocket rocket deluxe all season in '23 (~ 30 days) and in wind, a narrower gap seems like it would work better just judging by the flame contact with the pot bottom.
Agreed! Pot-burner gap could use more testing.
@@GearSkeptic It's hiking season! I fully understand your packing up the tools. Thanks again. I've posted my thoughts and technical analysis over on Backpacking Light
I like videos that make me feel stupid - mission accomplished (now to re-watch a few times).
🤓
I have tried the Petrel/Windmaster option and it starts and heats just fine in 20 mph+ winds. Very much looking forward to how it does in terms of fuel efficiency when you add wind. Thank you for the great work you are doing!
Me too, I wonder how much of a difference those neoprene covers actually make.
Awesome stuff as usual. Former ultralight zealot here. In recent years i find myself using more and more fuel, especially if im with my wife. If im in the high country, I am known to enjoy a hot shower every few days. So I bring a large hx pot (1.5l) and dump it into a 3l bladder and its enough for my wife and I to wash ourselves. We also do at least 2 cups of instant coffee or tea in the am and maybe a warm up cup of chicken noodle before dinner. Very useful after a long hard, probably wet day to get some salt and heat down the gullet. I'm ambivalent to breakfast and lunch, usually one or the other preferring to eat small things more frequently then a banger hot dinner, many times with fish and a (gasp) frying pan. Desert cooking needs are about half of my high country needs. Cold bath, less food. For a guy like me I've switched to HX pots as they are great for high use people like me. If im going ultra ultra light ill bring my tiny ti pot and a small cannister and it will last me up to 5 days. If im melting snow, white gas is the is the only solution. Omnilite ti is the one for me.
Alas, even amongs an army of me, I have no less than 6 different systems depending on the trip. They all have thier pluses and minuses.
It is the mark of the true enthusiast to have a kit for every occasion!
Undoubtedly my favorite review chanel. Always my UA-cam favorite notification! You are quite literally one of my go to's when hiking. I love the basic and yet scientific approach taken to our real world struggles and frustrations on the trail. I know quality doesn't come quickly but for all our sakes on the next review, hurry every chance you get.!!!!!!
Thanks very much! That means a great deal. I’m always working on some part of one of several possible upcoming projects. Stupid real life has a way of interfering, though… 😏
@@GearSkeptic I know,right? Keep up the good work and greetings from Idaho.
Thanks for awesome analysis. I also use Soto Windmaster triflex with Petrel. Here I learned that what I thought was the optimal small stove gap is an efficiency penalty. But in wind? Having the stove head tucked into the HE cavity surely helps some? Even if the wind blows the close flame off the pot, the flame must pass through the HE fins. I look forward to your wind testing.
Here's an idea: in calm conditions, do NOT tuck the stove support arms into the Petrel channels, to increase the stove-pot gap, boosting efficiency. In wind, go ahead and tuck it close. Maybe I can modify the Petrel's channels to still lock the stove on, but not place the burner so close to the bottom of the pot.
I also learned that my preference for HE pots is entirely based on what amount to thermodynamic aesthetics and doesn't actually save me any weight, for my typical use cases. At least in no wind.
Good idea. When I do wind, I will also test the Petrel both in and out of the slotted recess. Thx!
And without the science, my dad insists we should bring a jet boil for larger groups- clearly there is something to that! thanks for the great video! Looking forward to wind testing!
I have a BRS+750ml pot for my day-pack setup for occasional or emergency use.
I have a JetBoil for planned trips for regular use.
Since I have both ends of this spectrum I’m thankful you did all this work! You’ve made me realize I should carry my lightweight windscreen with my BRA setup and could use it on short trips. You’ve also helped me feel a bit better about the added initial cost of the JetBoil!
Thanks again for this series!
Very glad to help!
How dare you make us wait until Fall for the wind tests! We shall not stand for this! We need the results now! NOW I SAY! gyaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
😱🤯🤓
Thank you for being so thorough and scientific once again! I do have both Toaks/BRS and Stash pot/Windmaster system, I keep going to Stash pot/Windmaster. Granted it doesn’t win on weight, but I have burnt my fingers and spilled the Toaks cup once too many on windy days 😅
When I looked at the question of which boiler setup to buy for solo and eventually gave up and bought the Stash as a nicely integrated system. I am quite happy with the choice!
I mostly use it in the tent vestibule, so wind isn't a huge problem. But a wind screen might help for lunch.
I think it's a worthwhile trade-off for the boil time, but to each their own.
Great test!
Excellent as usual. I had been suspecting that the HX pots weren’t worth the additional weight, but hadn’t thought about whether they might be more worthwhile to larger volume users. Maybe they will redeem themselves a little when wind comes back into the picture. Can’t wait. Thanks again for your diligence.
Great series, looking foraward to the wind tests
This is absolutely amazing. I am so glad you are doing these experiments and tests.
Thanks! I hope it helps.
The nerd in me rejoices!
🤓
Awesome video!!. One of the side effects of Heat Exchange Systems is that it can scorch certain types of food that are too starchy or with high sugar content.
Good to know!
You do such a great job! Thank you for you thorough efforts
Wow this was quality work, I learned a lot. Thank you! I very much enjoy how deep in the weeds this is.
Another great video.
In a future video, I'd like to see a comparison between heat exchangers and tight windscreens which redirect the exhaust around the outside of the pot (giving an extra opportunity to capture the heat - acting like a secondary heat exchanger of sorts), and compared to kelly kettles which do the same but on the inside of the pot - and of course combinations of heat exchangers with the windscreens.
⬆️ Yes, this.
I do have plans to include third-party windscreens with the wind testing of HX systems!
I have been using the Fire Maple XT1.8L kettle with the Zen pot stand with alcohol burners for the last year. It is a good combination because the prongs on the pot stand fit inside the heat exchanger ring making it wind resistant and stable. There is no flame spill around the edge of kettle at all. The Zen pot stand has adjustable levels for burners such as the Trangia, Evernew Titanium and Toaks Siphon making it easy to find the “sweet spot” for various alcohol burners.
I do have alcohol burners on my list of things to test….someday!
I understand, and you do a very thorough job of testing I must say, hang in there!
Always great to see another video. Ive see people shove a BRS in the fins on the Stash so I'd be curious to know how that would change things versus the Petrel and a BRS.
Also you've got me curious to see you do testing on the theory of burner height too. Something like ripping the wings off a BRS and the using an adjustable lab stand to change the height of the pot over the BRS. Maybe with the Stash, Petrel, Toaks 550, and the 118.
As always though great work!
I have an optimus terra HE pot .9 liter. When paired with a MSR pocket rocket deluxe it boils 2 cups of water in around 1.5 minutes at medium flame. My toaks 750ml on the same stove with low or medium flame taked 3.5 - 4 minutes to boil. On a recent 14 day backpacking trip I carried the Optimus terra he pot for the first week when I was cooking for 2. During the second week I carried a MSR Talon 1 liter pot (titanium and significantly lighter) and cooked for one. I found that when I was hungry and preparing meals (I cook morning and evening) the time difference was notable and I much preferred the quicker boil. Less trying to think of something to do while I waited for water to boil. Also less boiled over pots because I started something during the boil and the pot would beat me. I much preferred the HE pot and faster boil times even with a 4oz - 6oz. penalty.
It seems that the Optimus HE pot over the MSR pocket rocket deluxe hits a sweet spot. Since it has no slots for the legs there is a greater burner to pot distance which might make it considerably more efficient. In all my unscientific use of the system I much prefer it to any other pot combination including my toaks & bsr combination.
I found that when you have hiked in the rain or endured cool temperatures during the day getting a warm meal faster makes a huge psychological difference.
Incidentally I read one review comparing stove systems that found the best combination was an MSR pocket rocked deluxe stove with an oilcamp HX 1 liter pot. Beating out the jetboil in the tests for speed and efficiency.
I am planning a through hike next year and am trying to decide on my stove system. I like the HE pot for speed more than efficiency. I have just purchased the Petrel pot to see if I like that in combination with the MSR pocket rocket deluxe as well. Decisions, Decisions, Decisions.
And then along comes wind! Be interesting to see how that affects it all.
Somebody likes This old Tony...
Cant wait to see a future iteration where the reactor might shine, this beeing low temperatures, mountaneering and a little snow melting scenarios. Complication would be that we start going into the realm of remote and inverted canister systems as well... good luck and as aways thank you for the amazing content!
Thanks for such amazing content! Would love to see something like this for alcohool stoves (comparing caldera systems and things such as)
Your observation about distance of burner from pot and its effect on efficiency is interesting. You have likely noted that Fire Maple has paired their newer Hornet II (non-regulated) stove with their Petrel pot. The distance between the burner and the pot is easily twice as far as that between the Soto with triplex pot supports. I have to wonder what difference that distance will make in efficiency. You might come close to replicating by not inserting the pot supports of the Soto into the grooves of the Petrel pot bottom. I bought the Hornet II and Petrel pot as well as one of the FlatCatGear windscreens made to fit the Hornet II stoves. It is ingenious but simple and lightweight. I haven’t tested it yet as a system in windy conditions but anticipate, based upon Jon’s tests for the effects of wind on fuel consumption, that it will be a very efficient solution in real world conditions which very often include some wind. My goal is to find the lightest but very efficient stove/pot system that will allow me to extend a single fuel canister over a period of about five to six days while heating water at least twice per day for breakfast and supper. Too, for a very few additional ounces on my back, I will accept that weight penalty to realize the savings in cost through a reduction in grams per heating event of my water. For me, speed is not a factor as long as I can achieve my goal of adequately heated water inside of about 6 minutes or so. I apply that same metric to heating with alcohol stoves too. I do think we viewers will be “blown away” 😊 by the degree of efficiency of an HX pot with more protected fins, such as the Petrel or the kettle, over a pot such as the Stash with a more open base, especially when combined with a nested stove such as the Soto Windmaster with the triplex pot support . See you in the Fall.
Very interesting. I decided to test out your theory on the burner to pot gap using the Petrel and Soto Windmaster.
With the windmaster legs in the pot slots I boiled 500g of water in 5mins 10 using 6.5g of gas.
With the pot sat directly on top of the legs it boiled 40 secs faster and used on average 1.0g less per boil. Start temperature, burner level and conditions were kept the same. I do like the Petrel and Windmaster combo
Interesting! When I do wind testing, I plan to test it both ways, as well.
Oh Lord this is going to be great!
Love it!!! Can’t wait for the wind results in the fall. In the meantime, maybe a video experimenting with distance between burner head & pot. Another idea would be to compare different brands of fuel for burn temperature and if the air/ fuel mixture of different stoves affects the burn temp. Just thinking out loud. Regardless, I’ll watch whatever you produce!! Thank you very much all you do.
All good ideas! I also want to test aluminum vs titanium vs stainless steel. So many things…
You could test the flame gap theory with the Petrel. Run it with the pot supports in the slots and then with it not in the slots. Everything remains the same, except the gap.
Yes! I plan to try that when I do the wind testing.
Another great video. Thanks!
Something I'm curious about is a different design on the heat exchangers. A coiled exchanger design should retain most of its efficiency and reduce the effect of wind.
You also discussed how often people resupply, resupplying often is not efficient and adds steps. I'm one of those oddballs that has no issue going a month without going to town.
Yet another great episode in the quest for the holy boil. Meanwhile I also did some testing myself. Not as thorough as you, I did use a thermometer in the beginning but quickly discovered that my tap water is an almost constant 18 C. I also did not stop at the 200 F (93 C) mark but just did a visual check on boiling as that is what I will do in real life.
Results are not too different from yours. My big 1.4 l HX pot boils 415 ml water using 4.9 grams of 80/20 isobutane/propane mix (the Primus brand) but using one of these cheap butane cylinders (these are sold over here as fuel for weed burners very cheaply) that same boil (after cooling down everything) uses only 4.5 grams of butane. Taking into account that the butane cylinder is lighter (327 grams, 227 grams gas) than the Primus one (380 grams, 230 grams of gas) this could be a good option for a summer holiday.
As a plus, I find these cylinders easier to connect (push & twist) with less possibility for spoiling fuel when doing so.
When your shop getting too warm, this might be a nice thing to test: what is the best fuel for a summer trip 😁😁😁
I do want to compare brands and types of gas fuel to see how they perform. No shortage of ideas for future videos!
Great review. I just received the Petrel and I did quick tests with brs300 and pocket rocket 2, and I had 4gr for 500gr water. Also they ship a set where they have Hornet stove which has pretty high distance to the pot. So I think stove choice is making a difference for Petrel.
Your videos are amazing! Thank you very much for such pedantic work. I love it!
Looking forward for next videos.
Uniformly awesome, +/-0.01AU (awesomeness units)
Thanks! Much appreciated.
I had looked at HX pots extensively and found most of the pots you highlighted. One concern I have, which is way outside the scope of your video, is lead and cadmium contamination in the cheap pots being imported from low and middle income countries. There's been a few research studies that have found lead leaching from products that are imported into North America, through websites like Amazon or Ali Express. Since the pots are not sold directly in the US or Canada, these pots don't need to meet the regulations of those countries.
In the end - I ended up going with titanium pots made in Japan. :)
I enjoyed this video as I’ve been looking into heat exchanger pots and stove combos in the future I’d love to see a comparison on heat exchanger setups vs wind shielded setups and fuel use. You may also want to check out the Bulin stove and pot combo the fins on the bottom of the pot are longer and covered with an additional cup piece on the bottom of the pot I’d be interested to see the correlation of the exchanger pots and their types of fins and the length of the fins.
Yes! It is coming. I just need to wait until it cools down in my shop.
I'm using an Olicamp XTS with a Trangia which has a diy simmer ring made from the top section of a soda can. Pot is held up by a two piece punched titanium sheet material that interlocks to work also as a windscreen. I have the canisters and a brs 3000 stove but I get the sense that with the yellow Heet and the heat exchanger along with the simmer ring I'm saving money. Hoping when I have a few minutes I could crunch the numbers to check. I'll have to run through this video a second time to catch those numbers. I appreciate the informative work you're doing!
I do have plans for alcohol stoves…eventually
Your videos are just so damn great. You’ve piqued my inner nerd and that’s also where I found my inner stupid. I’m trying to figure out the math on my own experiment. I’m using three different stoves under two different cups to evaluate boiling 2 cups of water. I know the weight of the stoves and cups and I know how long it takes to boil. I’m just not sure of the math to compare time to weight to figure out which makes the most sense to carry. Guidance for the dumb? THANK YOU!
thanks so much for the video, I think i'll be leaving my heat exchanger system in the bug out bag and taking my brs on hiking trips for the foreseeable future. I did 2x boils a day on my AT hike for coffee and dinner and definitely enjoyed the speed efficiency of the heat exchanger but in future endeavours I think a lower pack weight is worth a few extra minutes of cook time. Although probably an odd use case, the carryover heat exchange from the heat exchanger systems does help when actually cooking in a pot rather than just boiling water for a freeze dried meal
Very nice, I always wondered when it is worth carrying the extra weight. Something I was missing tho: As far as I know these HX system where originally developed for high alpine (winter) rockclimbing/summiting. So basically melting snow fast where time outweighs weight and volume. They were never ment for solo overnighters.
Nice video.
Given how wide the ring on the kettle is and how big the msr deluxe, I can imagine that its simply oxygen starved.
As an small aside: you can use your trekking pole to accurately messure weights. Simply put what you want to measure (eg. the cannister) into the handstraps and see where the balance point is. Make a few markings before on the pole and especially in the >300g range you can get very precise measurements.
It is possible there was an oxygenation issue, but usually that results in sooting, which I did not see in this case.
Another very Skeptically great video. I was curious if there was a significant fuel loss between burners when removing from the canister. That little pop always makes me wonder... Looking forward to the next GearSkeptic video.
I keep my external valve on the can while weighing and during tests, so there is no loss of gas with that little “pop” as you say. I suppose I could just try taking a stove on and off repeatedly and then measure the can to see if it is enough to tell.
Very interesting video. I have been using and comparing stoves for a couple of years, including Stash. Because I want a fuel efficient stove on my longer hikes. I have come to the same conclusion that the Stash is very fuel efficient. I put a Optimus Clip-On windscreen on the canister to get better performance in windy conditions.
Interesting. I will have to try the Optimus shield with a Stash when I do the wind tests!
Update after going through the San Jacintos during a 70 mph windstorm. The FireMaple system worked great, the Soto lit and boiled in the typical time.
By comparison, I couldn’t get either of my lighters to ignite inside my tent (I was trying to melt guy line cord I had cut). I believe if I didn’t have a stove with a self igniter hidden inside the HX pot I would have been in trouble.
These were extreme conditions of course, I got frostbite on my feet and lips, but worth noting.
Yikes! Always take care of yourself! Good point about ignition. None of it matters if you can’t get that stove lit in the first place.
Ouch, I saw the price of the reactor. This was entertaining despite my always going stoveless
Wow. Amazing data capture. I recently bought the Petzel to test with my super efficient DIY alcohol burners. I won't do anything close to your rigor. But hopefully my tests will help determine if the Petzel is a good option for alcohol burners. Video in a few days. TomLovesDIY
So much work ! Thanks for it.
Would like to see in-depth video about alcohol stoves and caldera cone 😊
Alcohol stoves are definitely on my To Do list!
Excellent video again and look forward to the wind tests. Some random thoughts:
- On residual heat. I've read recommendations to boil water at least a minute and more at altitude. Also, a lot of non-freeze-dried (and a lot cheaper) food recommends boiling for at least a couple of minutes. I rarely do that but I'll at least let it boil for a short time before turning off the stove. When cooking that way a few seconds before the stove go out and get cold isn't wasted IMO.
- I used a canister stove for the first weeks of an AT thruhike and agree that shelters can be great wind shield but I also found that even inside a shelter or on a table close to the shelter it doesn't take a lot of wind before it affects boil times. I love the size and convenience of these stoves but on a longer hike it's often difficult to know if one canister is enough to the next resupply and it's not possible to add "slightly more" fuel like you can with a white gas stove. On the PCT you also have the added problem that you might have to melt snow in some sections.
All good thoughts.
I did a series on Backcountry Water Treatment. Part 1 was on boiling vs Pasteurization. It addresses the issue of “boiling for 1 full minute” in the mountains. Also, there is discussion about what you can use pasteurized water for (you are right that dehydrated meals require “cooking” while freeze-dried only needs pour-and-mix).
Thanks for the reply. Thought I'd watched all your videos but must have skipped the boil-one (had watched the chemical treatment one though as I've used chemical treatment a lot). Turns out I've wasted fuel over the years, but since I use almost only dehydrated meals it could have been worse!
I've looked at dehydrated vs freeze dried and weight-wise it's not that much saved while money-wise on a five months thruhike it's quite a difference.
Dehydrated mostly require longer prepare times, but I'm usually able to find meals that don't require more than 10 minutes although a couple of minutes extra usually helps. On a non-extreme weather day, I'll start boiling(!) water as soon as I stop for the night and just manage to set up the tent before the water is ready.
Then after adding the meal and stirring a bit I have time to unpack my stuff and do some chores and the meal is basically ready. Of course, adding the meal to the water immediately lowers the temp somewhat and I'll let the stove run for maybe half a minute more and maybe waste some fuel but hopefully also help the rehydration.
Anyway, thanks for all the videos and I'll try to reduce fuel consumption at least a little from now.
Very interesting episode since I’ve just been down the rabbit hole of buying and trying pots. And maybe it’s not over. I am a fan of that Firemaple kettle, it was very efficient. Ultimately tho I took it out of the kit because its diameter isn’t great in the pack. Even worse with the nesting pot and pan and despite a large size didn’t allow a gas bottle and Soto burner inside and still close the lid(s). I’ve now got a titanium small kettle from evernew and a 1 litre pasta pot. Fits everything inside while easy to pack. I have noticed I’m not going to tick every box. No one does titanium with heat exchangers, I don’t know why, and none have the versatility of being able to go from gas to campfire or twig stove. I’ve customised my pasta pot with a Billy wire so I could hang it over a campfire if need be. Nothing saves gas better than a folding twig stove.
machining and manufacturing titanium parts is significantly harder than aluminum. I suspect we will see more titanium products in the near future as 3d printing titanium is relatively popular and 3d printing allows for more complex HX designs
Titanium has relatively poor heat transfer, though. That’s probably a reason why you don’t see those.
Good point about using over a campfire. Regular pots can be very versatile.
Amazing
Something that I am curious about: how much CO (carbonmonoxide) do these different hx systems produce. And is there a correlation with efficiency and amount of CO produced? My hx kettle (same kettle as you tested) always trips my CO alarm in my camper and the MSR reactor is notorious for producing lots op CO which makes these stoves more dangerous inside tents
It kills me that I know nobody in real life to nerd out on this stuff with
Where have you been all my life?
YOU ROCK 🪨
I think its not too long until we'll see HX systems that weigh less than a toaks 550 + brs hit the market. I made one, and have been using it for a few years now; so that shows its technically possible. And im not even that kind of engineer, so im sure a company with true proffesionals could get it to the point where its economicalky viable too!
Let me see. I like making stuff also
I’ve seen your video! The Joule Thief. It is a fine thing, indeed!
WooHoo new video 🤩
I'm testing out a heat exchanger pot in hopes it will solve the wind problem. I'll gladly take a few extra ounces if it significantly simplifies my cook kit.
Any chance you could take a look at using alchohol stoves with heat exchanger pots? And if it's a good enough idea to try out?
Yes! Alcohol stoves are on my list.
I knew I wasn't a fool for sticking with my jetboil!
Silverfire's Scout Mini Dragon Pot goes beyond fins
Agreed. Fins should be way less efficient than capturing heat along the sides of the pot, while side-heating also weighs much less. Siverfire appears short on specs though? Weight? Volume? And couldn't find the mini on their website.
@@tomnoyb8301 I have it. It's stainless steel and too heavy for backpacking. I wish the made a one liter -- a micro. For car camping it's great.
If the made a smaller, titanium one…
I noticed the pot with the add on HX unit had a black base. I wonder how the Reactor might behave with it or if you painted the bottom of a pot with black BBQ paint.
Have to put that on my list of things to try! (someday)
One possibly overlooked variable, on the MSR wrap-around: lowering the exchanger, so that it acts as a chimney/wind guard/flame catcher. It won't have as much area in contact with the pot, but it could possibly capture and force more of the hot efflux from the burner to travel up the wall, rather than around the exchanger. I know you tested this on previous videos, but the gaps on those devices were, in my opinion, too small to function, and the MSR had a chance of actually working.
If you see the action shots, I did have the exchanger pulled down below the bottom of the pot (per MSR’s instructions). I think a bigger problem is the relatively small burner. With the HX around the outside of the pot, it is farther away from any flame or hot spot. Also, with only 415mL, that larger pot was relatively empty. The water line inside was low. Other HX conduct through the bottom, so that’s not so much of a problem, but the outside HX only conducts through the sides. I do want to try more things with it, to see how well it can work.
Hypothesis, one could probably take the Petrel pot and not use those slots for the stove arms, increasing the gap and allowing the flame to develop in the center of the pot, and possibly increasing efficiency. (Possible downside instability.)
Yes! I plan to test it both ways when I do the wind testing.
Looks like fire maple sells the petral pot separately on their website for $24, but not on Amazon
Good to know
The accordion style MSR Heat Exchanger iirc is meant for the stainless steel MSR Alpine pots.
I have a note to test it further using their recommended pots, plus some others for more direct comparison to bottom-fin models.
I was hoping to see my Optimus Terra Weekend HE .95L pot tested. My guess it is not a common option in the US. I use it with a SOTO Micro Regulator stove.
Can you do a Dyneema Tent vs aerodynamic Silnylon tent for Winter camping comparition video?
0:35 Okay, I guess I'll pick back up here in about 3 hours!
😉
Great channel. Unsolicited ask: Oxygen transfer rate (OTR) on name brand odor barrier bags! Aside from the empirical testing, also a dog sniff review at a local dog park or similar?
Hmm. Interesting. Have to give that some thought!
Petrel has the benefit of adjusting the burner gap. Be interested to know results of petrel if burner isn't used inside the slots.
Agreed! When I do the wind testing, I will check it both ways.
Great job 👏
I use a Fire Maple remote titanium stove that fits inside of the fins of the 1 liter Fire Maple heat exchanger pot at low heat
A large gas canister gives me an extended time of simmering cooking food like lentils
.
I don’t understand why you did not use a single stove head throughout the entire testing
This would have kept the flame distance at a constant
Also the stove weight as a constant to compare the final system weight savings
Thanks
No one stove would fit all scenarios, and some of the pots had proprietary, attached stoves that won’t work on other pots.
@@GearSkeptic
Clearly the self contained units use their own stoves
The BRS stove would not have worked?
The petrel could be used with the stove supports in the slots for a small separation, or rotated 60deg to have a larger separation. I'd bet it has worse wind performance but might be more efficient without wind.
Sounds about right.
And how would the Petrol do if the cut-outs were not used? The distance would be increased by at least 10mm putting it inline with the other HX pots. Which would apparently increase its effectiveness with no wind.
Curious to know if you tried settling the Petrel on the fingers of the Soto (as opposed to locking them into the recessed slots) to see if the increased gap made a difference
It’s been suggested! I will try it both ways when I do the wind testing 👍🏼
I think it'd be nice to see you compare titanium and aluminum (and steel, as the middle option between "cheap" and "durable"). Titanium's heat transfer isn't the best.
Agreed! That’s on my list.
Been watching your videos about stoves and water treatment and I was surprised how huge the effect of wind was on performance of stoves, even at rather low speeds. Knowing that windshields are not the topic of this video I would love to see you test out the effectiveness of a simple sheet of aluminum foil or folded foil as an external wind shield, laid around the container. I would like to guess that it should eliminate most wind effects on the flame, but you never know until you get someone to try it out in the most overly scientific way possible...
When I do wind effects on HX pots, that video will include windscreens+HX pots, where appropriate!
Really makes me wonder: how close are we to thermodynamic limit with all this gear? I mean, what is the lowest theoretical amount of gas needed to boil a cup of water? And can we quantify different types of losses between this theoretical limit and real world equipment?
To heat 500 ml of water from 20 C to 100 C at a 100% fuel efficiency would require 3.7 grams of Isobutane: it’s all about math. My 2 cents.
@@FlatCatGear Thanks, 3.7 vs 4.17 is much closer than I would've expected, it means only 13% losses for the best tested solution. And that's includes heating the vessel, evaporation, radiation and hot gases escaping around the cup.
@@rotors_taker_0h Now, the parameters that I gave you is what I use to test. GearSkeptic uses a 415 ml volume and a 200 F end point. If he starts at a water temperature of 45 F then a 100% fuel efficiency would correspond to 3.31 g of isobutane.
You talk about a bigger gap between the flame and a pot. That made me thing about high end restaurant stoves. They have massive gaps between the port and the burner compaired to stove tops in a house. So You could ask one of those manufacturers why that is.
It's for wider and more gentle distribution of heat load. Eliminates hot spots on pots and pans and applies the heat across the pan. Restaurants don't care about fuel efficiency in stoves. More about production efficiency.
I do think almost 100% of backpacking stoves are too close to the pot. Notable exceptions being the MSR Dragonfly and a few others. Its a compromise. Ideal distance vs wind.
@@UnitedElectric Well the more fuel effient a burn pot combination is the less heat is being pumped into your kitchen. Before airconditioning kitchens were stupid hot. Even now with airconditioning some kitchens switch to induction to battle the waste heat problem. So profesional stoves do care about fuel efficiency.
I hiked with a Stash user and was shocked at how slow theirs boiled water compared to Soto Anicus and Toaks 750ml. I was done drinking coffee I had made and they just got to a boil. Too bulky, too expensive and too slow to be of any use IMO.
The Stash definitely has the lowest BTU. It ain’t gonna win any races.
Thank you for all these tests! I wonder how a self-made caldera cone would perform, that hugs the upper side of the pot near the folded rim of the mug/pan and whereby the cone rests with cutouts in the cone, on the arms of the burner.
Or al caldera cone wind screen where the upper holes are not merely cutouts, but that they are folded lips so it hangs/rests from the upper edge of the pot so you can use smaller diameter burners legs with bigger diameter pots. So that the cone doesn't need to rest on the legs of the burner.
This makes me curious how this would fit in with your data since a caldera cone is kind of the unicorn for alcohol stoves, giving them superior wind protection and allows the sides of the pot to exchange heat, and doing all this for way less grams than a heat exchanger ring.
When I do the wind testing for HX pots, there will also be some third party windscreens involved!
Are your results based on single data points? I don't see mean calculations or data ranges mentioned or shown on your charts.
For the most part, yes. I do regular spot checks of accuracy throughout the testing (and sometimes extra if something looks odd). This has yielded a pretty tight range and a relatively small margin of error.
Thanks again for another fantastic and well designed presentation 🫡
If you're hiking with a group and sharing resources, wouldn't you want a larger pot so that you can boil the group's water all at once? So the 92 boils metric is perhaps inaccurate b/c the weight and boil time is going to be different.
We need all tests with alcohol stoves now 😅
I actually do plan to look at alcohol stoves, but wind testing of HX pots is next!
Could you test the pot gap hypothesis with the petrel by not putting the pot into the slots, just resting it on the hx?
Yes! When I do the wind testing, I will try that.
Hello old Tony!
😊
So... Any chance we could get a light and sound comparison for the HX systems? I like to be out in nature to be a part of it and sometimes I just bring "no cook" options for food so I don't disturb the stillness to much. But some of these look like they could be a good middle option
Interesting. I do have a light meter and a decibel meter. I will put it on the (growing) to do list.
@@GearSkeptic Thanks!