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Wads in BP Revolvers - Why Lower Speeds?
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- Опубліковано 16 січ 2024
- I've always thought that the lube on the wad probably effects how the power burns and causes speed variations. Maybe it does. But by over 100 f/s less?? We could also ask why when shooting a clean cylinder, speeds are also lower. Maybe something else is going on.
One of the many reasons I love this channel. Good thinking and tests my Friend. Thumbs up ~ John
Thank you very much!
As a long-term handloader of cartridges, I completely agree with your theory of the additional friction from fouling acting like a crimp.
Suggest 1. Do your normal (wad) load procedure then put your lube on top of the ball. If the speeds average higher, it is lube in the barrel making a difference, if speeds the same, probably the wad damaging powder... 2. Now try wad on top of ball. Great channel and great observations.
Thanks for the suggestions. I’m agreeing that more is needed. Because I’ve used the chronograph quite a bit I’ve noticed patterns that can use some explanation or theories: like, why speeds from a clean cylinder are (hate to say always) less than preceding ones. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I also would be interested in results from wad on top of ball!
Well, that was a very revealing demonstration, 100fps difference with the same load? I wonder if the reason for a drop in speed could also be due to the fact that the charge cannot be as compressed due to the springy wad, the fouling in the chamber would also give more resistance before it let go, but the biggest revelation here is why I never use over powder wads, they give lower velocity and worst accuracy, and less barrel lubrication. Many thanks OR for conducting these deep into ballistics experiments! Chris B.
I never thought about the compression factor. Since these lower speeds seem to happen also without the wad and only paper disk, well? May get the chance this summer to dig deeper into this. Oh, another can of worms l haven’t opened is why my lubed wads shoot 2-3 inches lower at the 21 yd mark then with wads or when using nothing. I just finished editing a 5 part series of testing wads, lube, and shooting dry. I attempted to put them all into a play list. Getting tougher for the Old Ranger to do the editing and make all the neat moves that can be done on UA-cam. Guess I’m just out of touch and spend a lot of time keeping fires going this time of year. Right now I’m deciding how to seat the breech plug when it is.040 too short. Looks like part of the barrel needs shortening. Thanks again for your insight. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I reckon you do really well uploading videos to youtube, it all seems like magic to me! The breach plug should be no problem, just turn the difference off the end of the barrel, I hope you have not cut the lugs or sights in yet! I know what you mean about feeding logs on the fire, we were a bit late bringing ours in last year, and as the last in are the first out they are a bit damp still. Stay warm! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 The last shall be first, and the first shall be last. I’m ok with that, except when it comes to wood.
Thanks, probably struggling with remembering what does what with the editing software helps keep the brain in someway. Amazing when I think there was a time when I couldn’t have even imagined there would be personal computers, cameras, and being able to communicate with people like we can today. Right now, do the plug first. Got it done this morning. Don’t have a big enough lathe (been on my wish list, along with a big enough heated shop), so I took it off with the milling machine which worked ok. If I get this rifle done before one (or both) of us see’s Hershel, I’ll do a video and send a link to you in a future comment (should work in theory). O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Aaaah! That is why we need to live closer, a few cuts and the job is done, but then where is the fun in that? Keep safe!. Chris B.
Here's a thought (which might not amount to anything!):
Revolvers, of course, have a cylinder gap, and we know that we lose some power because of that.
Imagine we shoot a bullet without a wad:
As the bullet jumps the cylinder gap and is momentarily slowed as it negotiates the forcing cone, some of the hot gases behind it are deflected to the side and out through the cylinder gap. Hence we lose some power (and thus velocity).
Now imagine we shoot a bullet with a wad behind it:
If the wad was "impermeable" to the gases behind it (i.e. none of them got past it), then it probably wouldn't make much difference - in effect you'd just have a longer bullet!
However, its pretty clear that gases DO get past the wad.
Therefore, those gases that get past the wad are deflected sideways by the bullet as normal, just as if the wad wasn't there.
But then, we also have the gases that remain behind the wad, and they will get deflected sideways by the wad itself as it, in turn, jumps the gap and negotiates the forcing cone.
Double trouble!
Thus, my thinking is:
Maybe more gases are getting deflected if we use a wad, and therefore there is more loss of power (and velocity).
I dunno - just a thought! ??
If I’m understanding, there would be two areas where gas can exit rather than one. Interesting. I’ll have to ponder that some. How much that escaping gas affects speed is unknown to me, but it must be. I should play with my muzzle loading pistols. They of course don’t loose without the barrel-cylinder gap, but I can load (which I’ve never done) a wad before the patched ball. Sounds like a good idea for testing “something “ thanks. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Thanks for the reply!
It might be interesting, if nothing else, to compare vecocities in a M/L pistol v revolver using the same powder, bullet etc.
See how much velocity loss is down to cylinder gap.
You got a great Channel man keep it up very interesting stuff thank you
The results certainly seem to support the theory that a 'clean' cylinder is slower as even the straight ball / powder was slow in the first unfouled cylinder.
Good Job Mr OR. - There are SO many variables eh. The old single-shot 'Turn-Off Barrel' (Screw-barrel) pistols are said to make higher power/Velocities from that pressure build-up resulting from the ball being held down momentarily onto the small but COMPRESSED powder charge.
Might the wads be reducing the compression effect by causing a circle of air around-behind the balls? - How about trying compress the balls directly onto the charge then "top-off" with the lubed wad ??. Have a Great Day anyway ..
i loaded a Pieta 45 cylinder with a 40 gr pellet of powder, and a ball, i use kiwi for each chamber, over the ball, plenty of room for a wad, if you must. Haven't shot it yet. Let you know how it works, but it was quick an easy to load.
I’ve no experience with pellets, they must be quite compressed, otherwise doesn’t seem there would be enough space. Yes, let me know. O.R.
You maybe on to something. As you may, or may not recall I rarely use round ball. Exceptions are my .31 pockets. Right,or wrong I've always lubricated over the top. Of course a revolver for me can be loaded for long periods of time, so I held to the lube against the powderleads to powder contamination. Even if I use the lube grooves, I'm careful not to get any lube on the base. Yet still lube over the the top. Maybe it's my unique version of OCD😮 Who knows recently I seen a video from lame beaver where he picked up lubed wad that still had unburned powder attached to them. I can't claim any great insight on this matter as I started shooting these revolvers back in the seventies lubeing over round ball, and the only changes I made was to conicals in the early eighties.
Mountain man
Another possibility would be that the extra space/cushioning of the wad between the powder and the ball somehow reduces the pressure/speed. But your test seems to show that the wad lubing/cleaning the chamber mouths is what is reducing the speeds. Interesting.
Yes, I hadn’t thought of that, but as you point out, speed seems to be reduced when only a paper disc is used. I think some more testing should be done because we aren’t talking about just a small speed difference here. It also correlates with the amount of decrease there is when shots are fired from a clean cylinder. Thanks. O.R.
i used them once before in a test of a Traditions rifle. like a rock, you have to be careful not to crush them, or you get erratic results.
Too much pressure causing lube to come out of the wad? O.R.
Less lubrication of the bore using wads compared with lube on the ends of the cylinders?
👍🏼
I make my own lubed wads and they may be thinner than commercial ones. interesting theory. it would seem to follow then that the more oversize the ball... the more it would be 'sized' to an oblong shape which would mean more bearing surface and meaning more friction.... or more pressure to start the ball rolling so to speak. For me wads are the way to go. It gets pretty hot here in the summer and bore/grease/butter turns to goo in not too long a time. Nickel is pretty smooth. When I nickel plated my cylinders I just stuck cap screws in the nipple threads and dumped the whole works in solution. reaming the cylinders first tho from .366 +/- to .372 just like the bore. I use a .380 ball. I admit tho that I have not checked the velocity lately. There seems to be a noticable accuracy improvement tho and things clean up.... easier.
Do you plate revolvers for other people?
Excellent idea to see if a 454 would make a noticeable difference in speed. Something to check out. Thanks. O.R.
@@usualsuspect5173 Naa... Anyone can do it with minimal setup and investment. The biggest.... by far... thing is the polish of the metal beforehand. Also for carbon steel you really should copper plate first as a base coat/barrier. These BP revolvers were learning practice for me. LOL... I have plated a lot of my tools now. Also some high carbon knives a buddy made me that the women did not like cause they discolored (a natural browning process) so rather than listen to em I just plated the blades. Honestly I thought I knew how to polish metal but nickel plate really shows every mark. In fact... the Naval scenes on the cylinders were very faint in blue but really stand out now in nickel. I really think the combo of color case frame and the rest of the gun nickel looks just right.
@@oldranger3044 yeah... LOL.. it is all relative to bore chamber size. My 44 1860 and buddies Remington now have .4525 cylinder bores. I was using .454 balls but they just are not big enough in dia I am casting .457 balls now but you can buy ones in that size. Basically? the bigger around the ball before sized in the chamber the more bearing surface to grip the rifling you will get problem of course is it would just take too much pressure size in really small chambers. Son talked me into doing some youtube stuff.. Got a couple of things lined up I can show from the kitchen table. like what the balls look like after sizing and how the rifling imprints look using large balls in large chambers vs say .452 sized in .388+/- ones. The bearing surfaces are very similar but.... when driven down the bore the difference in depth of rifling imprint is obvious. In... My....opinion... using a 452 ball sized down to .388 or so likely has enough bullet to rifling engagement at low BP velocities to stabalize the ball..... but..... you are dealing with very shallow engagement. often only a few tho..... if the ball is not perfectly round or cast a bit small? I think those are the flyers we can't explain! as you note... sometimes just the sprue cut is deep enough that it does not engage at all!! The way I do it you can't even find the sprue cut if it was on the side. How much does BP 'bump' up the size of the ball? from recovered bullets in the past it don't seem like anything at all. BP rifles like my Hawken use a patch. and guess what? different thickness patches affect accuracy. How much effect at 100 yards for revolvers? have not done that yet but will. I can hit a 5 gallon bucket at 100 yards with a little J frame 38 spl. I could not hit a man size target at 100 yards with the stock BP revolvers. Again... there is no reason that a BP revolver should lose accuracy at distance like that. again..... IMO..... I think the balls are not being stabalized enough ... fine for short range but not for 50-150 yards I mean... a smoothbore does kinda ok at 20-50 yards. Then again? I could be full of shit on this.
This gives a little credence as to why I have noticed better grouping when loading a fouled cylinder but firing through a freshly cleaned barrel. But now I'm so low on caps that I hardly shoot anymore.
That primer thing is only the tip of the ice berg when it comes to what’s wrong. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Been kind of a crappy road for me. I got into black powder about the time the shortage was getting bad. I bought 1000 caps and when I went to stock up more, nobody had any. Or they wanted over a dollar a cap. Is making my own the only route at this point?
Deeper seating depth?