1851 44 cal Pietta Sight Change
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2023
- Have made this front sight modification on a couple of 44 cal 1851 Pietta's. The 51's in 36 cal often shoot high, but the 44's (to borrow a modern phrase) really double down on this. The next one(s) I do will use the "Wild Bill" method, which uses a Kentucky rifle dovetail style front sight. Check out the
pictures of Wild Bill's navy at Cody Museum, or my video on the subject. - Спорт
You hit every shot after the first one. Some decent shooting for sure. Thanks for the pectoral in making a new front sight. 😊
A very interesting way to add a front sight.
I'm impressed.
I've seen another one where they removed the sight, soldered the remaining hole, then cut a dovetail and drifted in a blade sight.
That allows drifting for windage, and if you trimmed too much for elevation, just drift in a new sight and start over.
I did a similar thing on a 51 that needed lots of windage change. Instead of having a blade I bored a hole for in the dovetail for another post style that stuck up through the hole. This looked more original and made it higher of course. I belled the bottom (to keep it in) and made a slight chamfer bottom side of the dovetail. If the height needs adjustment just make another post (thinking i used brazing rod). Thanks for you comment and information. O.R.
Exactly how I would do it. Machine it for an interference fit. Thousandths count! Adjust and verify and adjust and reverify, and when it is dead nuts on, braze it in place.
always love your videos, stay young. I bought a Uberti 1860 colt and it shoots great minus the 2 feet high at the 20 yard line. Have to make a new sight for it.....
You could just contact VTIGUNPARTS and order the front sight for the Uberti Open Top revolver. It’s taller than your stock 1860 sight and should have your bullets hitting very close to point of aim. The blade from an Uberti 1873 SAA will also fit but needs quite a bit of material removed.
That took a lot of time and patience but the end results proves it was worth it. Good video, thanks for posting!
"Now they hit where they're aimed."
As they used to say “close enough for gov----nt work”. O.R.
Great job, very interesting video.
Thanks for all your hard work.
That was a slick-looking job O R and thanks for taking us along
Your videos are great to me. Thank you
Glad you like them! O.R.
Been following you just two days ,your,work is dead on, the reason for me, I used to shoot BP years ago, now I'm back in the,saddle, I have sight work on a old Sharp's rifle I inherited from my father, which came from his great grandfather, over the years the front sight has been damaged . Someone tried to fix it and did a bad job of it. So the other day I stumbled on your video and decided to get off my rear-end and have fun fixing it .thanks and again great job,
Appreciate you giving the positive comments. These old style guns have an appeal that is difficult to put in words, at least for me. Can’t help thinking how neat it would have been when I started to have information available like it is today. It was easy then to get on the wrong trail because of a scrap of information from a single source or hearsay. O.R.
Thanks for the video. Looked like a fun project! Thumbs 👍🏻 up ~John
Very instructive. Just did a similar conversion for my 3rd gen Colt 1860. It shot so high (19") the first time I fired it that I thought the barrel was sloped upward. I had a brass eye hook that I very painstakingly peened down with a hammer (closing the eye portion of the hook and eliminating the threaded shank) then filing and fitting into the very shallow notch of the barrel and so my new front sight is 3/8" higher than the original. I haven't fired it yet but am hoping to see a small improvement. Thank you sir again for the excellent videos!
Thanks. Here’s something that might be interesting to check out for your 1860. Without the cylinder, put it in full cock. Then note how much you can draw back the hammer until it is stopped by the frame or back strap. You can then let it come forward again into the full cock position. The hammer and therefore the rear sigh will rise up. The height of the rear sight therefore depends on where the full cock notch is in the hammer, and also the length of the trigger sear. My thought is that when Colt originally made them, there was more attention put into this fitting. Getting the rear sight (hammer) to lock lower will somewhat correct the high shooting. We can’t do much about this, so working on the front (assuming we don’t care to work on the hammer) is “do what must be done “. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Yessir, I watched you demonstrate the hammer position at full cock on another of your episodes and mine doesn't lock back all the way (to where there is no play left) and the hammer will travel about 1.5 mm further rearward so I may try to remedy that as well. I did end up deepening and wide ing the hammer notch to better illuminate the front sight and let more light be seen on either side to facilitate better alignment. I really appreciate you for reminding me of the hammer travel video and I will be rewatching that episode. Thank you sir!
@@codered7453 And thanks for reminding me that I have posted something about this. I did make a trigger with a longer sear for a 51, but it wasn’t much to look at, but sure shot lower. There’s probably an opportunity for a small shop to make replacement triggers with longer sears. Truth is that there’s probably only a handful that would purchase them. O.R.
@oldranger3044 Yessir, I would think that any parts for these pistols that were made expressly to improve their accuracy and shootability would most likely sell pretty well to the hardcore accuracy guys and to those of us who carry these guns for self defense. We definitely want them shooting where they're pointing. If it takes a longer sear to finally do the trick for my particular pistol, then I'll be very shortly in the process of obtaining one. I'd rather have an accurate pistol that shoots to POA.
@@codered7453 Don’t believe you’d get an argument on that from Wild Bill. If there’s a need to shoot longer, do what Elmer did, hold up more front sight. I really can’t get into percussion pistols sighted for 75-100 yards. Maybe some can see and shoot that far, I’m just not that good. 👍 O.R.
Wow, that was a lot of work to make the sight, but you cant argue with the results ! It really turned out great. I always enjoy your videos ranger, please keep making more. Peace and blessings to you sir. Happy Shooting !
Thanks. I just finished burning 3/4 lb 3FFF Goex, 220 caps, and 3 days (plenty of cleaning). Have some data that I want to share share testing wads, lube, and nothing
so glad for the encouragement. O.R.
Exactly the advice I’ve been looking for- and was hesitant to pursue these last 5 years! Edit: Subbd!
I'm like you, the capability in a firearm is the sights, some people will just live with a pistol or rifle that shoot too high or low. I can't stand it, when I have to do something special just to put the round where it needs to go, that drives me batty. So, upgrading or replacing your sights is a must so you (The 90% of accuracy)can practice with out built in bad habits of Marksmanship. Not doing this is a waste of hard earned ammunition. Good video- Dave
Pretty good idea. Never done one quiet like that, however it got me a thinking of an idea for my 1849 pocket.
Mountain man
As I was saying in the video, after doing the hole for the front sight, realized next time I will remove it and probably have just as much strength with solder in that area. O.R.
@oldranger3044 I agree though it does help as a reference. My idea for the little pocket is too use a hollow piece of brass tubing, fitting it over the existing bead. Fill it full of silver solder, and squeeze it together above the existing bead. Looking almost like a Remington front sight. That I'm a thinking that as you file it to point of aim just right it would reveal a a brass- silver reference point of aim for my eyes
I don't think luck has mocha to do with it. I believe it is skill. Great video!!
I just did a total face palm. All along, I was thinking how some home gunsmithing tasks really are best left until there is room in the budget for a Chinese mini-mill and some tooling. I was going to point this out and then right at the end you spring it on us that you actually already HAVE a mill. The advantage in precision over hand sawing and filing make a strong case for machining with, well, machines. Nevertheless, good vid and thanks for posting. I know it will open up possibilities in some owners' minds. All too often, gun owners get the idea that what they get in the box is what they are stuck with until they sell it. As you have demonstrated, that just isn't necessarily so.
If you had drilled TWO holes in the bottom and threaded them, you could have through-drilled a piece of bar stock, and secured the sight to something much easier to hold by hand or in the vise or clamped to your mill's worktable or in a machining vise clamped down to the worktable. As a bonus, the threads in the hole that fits over the original post sight would have made it more secure.
Let me do point out though, that a ramped front blade with about a 0.080" wide flat (or whatever width seems to suit the rear sight) tends to reflect more light back to the eye and make a crisper front sight image in the sight picture.
Thanks for the wealth of good information. I like the idea for holding the sigh for working on it. I’m not even close to professional in most of what I do, but I’m making headway. Having to work on the sight on the barrel does have advantage of being able to adjust for windage which is usually necessary. Thanks again for your comments. O.R.
Thanks for the video O.R. I have a few revolvers that need the sights "adjusted". Rather try this than filing a dovetail.
Thing is that if it doesn’t workout, then the dovetail can be done. I plan on doing a video on doing a dovetail sight. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 That would be awesome! Dovetail would solve a lot of problems. It's just scary thinking about doing it. Your videos are excellent thanks for doing them.
I get adjusting the sight. On the orther hand, I adjust the load to change POI at distance. On my Spiller & Burr, I shoot 15-8 grains of 3F. But, I love the craftsmanship. I’d screw it up for sure.
Is that a 36? As we know most all will be high (excluding Remington), problem is with these that are 44, the reduction of barrel weight and extra recoil is a bad recipe. I argue that at times it’s better not to mess with what works. O.R.
I made a blade sight for my 1851, but used brass. I used the same method as you but glued the site with epoxy. It's been on there for years now. Certainly hit's what I point at.
Great 👍 and thanks for letting us know that so far it has held. That’s been my wonderment even with soldering. My bet is for the use (or lack of) that most of us give the guns, there are a number of ways to do it. Carrying daily in a holster would be another story. Thanks for your input. O.R.
Thanks! 👍✌
That was a really good result! Now it should be much more repeatable when sighting, I wonder if the odd flyer was due to a certain amount of non repeatable sight picture with aiming off target, you did not appear to have any flyers with the new sight, the front sight fell off my 1873 last week, I could have made the new one a bit higher and soldered it on into the groove which they used on the 1873, next time it falls of that is what I will do, although I like the idea of dovetailing it on. Chris B.
Thanks Chris. Always amazing to me how much we seem to think alike. The short answer is I wondered about this for years. Here’s the longer version. Back in the 80’s my brother and I competed at the National Muzzleloading Championships at Friendship IN. Those folks there get really serious. One flyer is enough to eliminate you from the competition. Two and you’ll decide to stay home the next year. We were shooting 2nd gen colts in 36 cal. We would shoot groups and usually get one flyer out of five. One of ten was for sure. I improved the sights, but we were never sure what was causing that flyer. We tried wads, but the best we came up with was lube (small amount of crisco) around the edge of the ball and frequent barrel swabbing.
I believe now that without the proper (lube job) barrel fouling will not allow the the ball to take the rifling on occasion. I’d like to go on, but there probably is some length limit for comments. The 36 colts were 1-30 twist. That might be marginal for that small caliber. The 44 Colt replica (1860 2nd gen) that we had is 1-60. It had problems grouping too.
I just completed testing lube,wads,and nothing. Over 200 shots, ten six shot targets for each loading style. Chronograph on all shots. I’m pretty sure you’ll enjoy seeing the results. We’re in a heck of a drought, but if it ever rains, I’ll stop shooting long enough to try to do the video(s). Right now I have three Walkers that have been calling my name since last December. Take care. O.R.
THREE Walkers. Jeezuz
@@oldranger3044 Well OR! Here is another amazing coincidence, I too have 3 Walkers, I lost one somewhere in the house, bought another to replace it, but had already bought one in parts, so my plan was to present one of them in an antique finish, they are very nice pistols, enjoy them! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 Ok, maybe you’re my lost brother. My mother was always concerned about my younger brother who she wondered if the hospital switched by mistake. Haven’t lost any yet, but not remembering where they are, or what I’ve bought is about the same. Going out now to shoot the 2nd gen walker. Planning to use substitute powder (BLMZ). Those that complain because I’m not using the real stuff can donate a couple pounds to me. Probably need 30-35 gr to get things to seat. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Ha Ha! OR, thats a thing! I usually find 35/40 Grn is comfortable, not too happy with a long jump to the barrel, have not tried filler yet., enjoy! Chris B.
Nice shootin
Thanks Jake. Good video about the balsa. Gave me the needed push to get back into making black. Where did you get your brass balls? My neighbor is a logger, and his are titanium. 😀. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Amazon
How’s your “brass” frame holding up? Axis pin still tight?
Will look to see if you milled a dovetail…
That is a very nice sight and very well done. I seen where some will cut a dovetail into the barrel.... I can't really wrap my head around that one. It just looks way to out of place. I have a Pietta 1851 and it shoots high and I thought and thought about it. I wanted it to look close to the original style but work a little better. I discovered that the front sight uses a 3 MM really fine thread. I could just thread a 3 mm brass rod and shape it but I wanted a bit more of a front sight I turned down a 6 mm brass rod to 3mm on one end so now it is twice as big around. I will use that to file flats and end up with a sight sorta like an 1858 remington. Ine useful thing is that if you want to figure out how tall you need it you just need to put in a 3mm by 75 screw (call them computer screws) you can file away on that at the bench and if you happen to go too far just unscrew it and screw in another. When you get it right just take your calipers and measure from the tip of the rammer catch to the tip of the sight then match that with the brass one.
Appreciate all the information and that plan should work, and the Remington style post works well. Just curious if you have ever taken a close look at Hickok’s 51 in the Cody museum? It’s front sight is dovetail. I have a vid on it. I did one on a Pietta and kept the dovetail flush with the hex sides. Bored a hole for the stud sight in the flat dovetail, flanged the underside hole and can replace with taller or shorter ones. But I kept the same diameter and as you pointed out, doesn’t look right. Thanks again for your input. O.R.
I have not seen the Cody guns but I did see a gun purported to be his at that big auction house and it had a plain 51 sight. Either way I am sure lots of people put lots of different sights on lots of 51's.. it was Colts second biggest seller next to the pocket. Just filing the hammer notch improved things a lot for me and it really doesn't show.wish I could show pics of some of the things I do since I may not be the best at explaining things... LOL.. sometimes when someone is here I have a hard time explaining what I did even with the gun in hand.@@oldranger3044
Good video. Thank you. I do have a question if you could: what about the use of black powder pellets in this same gun? I have seen several answers to this question and all assume I will be shooting several hundred rounds a day or whatever. I do not hunt, and my visits to the range tend to be few and far between. I have an interest due to the ease of loading these rounds versus the conventional methods. Thanks
I don’t have any experience with pellets. I’m only aware of triple seven and pyrodex, they should work as long as the charge is matched to the gun. Instructions from the manufacturer of the guns doesn’t have a recommended load for them that I am aware of. As you mentioned that you aren’t shooting a lot of, I suppose that pellets could simplify things. My personal thought is that shooting black powder percussion revolvers is somewhat more complicated than other firearms, and that is part of the game. O.R.
Thats a good idea :D
filing the rear sight notch down a little , is much easier and has the same effect.
Sorry, not always because sometimes it would be necessary to remove so much that the front can'tbe seen because of the interference with the frame. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 It worked good on my 1851 navy colt.
@@1bunnybuster Good, I’ve done that before and it worked. Curious, is that a 44 caliber? O.R.
I think more people would shoot blackpowder revolvers if the factory would put a taller front sight on to begin with. Nobody wants to deal with the difficult job of replacing front sight.
And its just not fun to have to aim 8 inches low and 2 inches to the right (even if you do remember that’s how the gun shoots. O.R.
It would be helpful to me if you could explain the sight picture you are trying to achieve. I'm confused as there doesn't seem to be any rear sight notch to line the front sight into as with other fixed sights. Does the hammer function as the rear site?
Yes. There is a notch in the top of the hammer that serves as the rear sight and is usable after the hammer is in full cock position. Appreciate your comment here and if I haven’t pointed this out before then I should. Thanks. O.R.
How did you determine the initial height to make the site and did you do much adjusting on sighting in? Thanks for the vid, it really helps to see the process.
I have done this before, so after checking how high it shot with the original, I measured other pieces that had been done. There can be slight variations because of how far back the hammer is when the trigger sear engages it. Also wanted to see if there would be windage issues, and fortunately none. Typically the front needs to be from .2 to .25 inches above the barrel, so I started with.25. And yes, I tool about 40 shots to get things where I said well enough. Thanks for asking. O.R.
To do it mathematically would be something like this: Suppose we want to make a one inch change at 25 yards (300) inches. If the distance between our sights is 300 inches, we need to add (or subtract) one inch. Thing is, we only have ave 10 inches to work with (between sights). Sooo, 10/300 is .033, but to change to a 8 inch movement, 8x .033 = .266 inches. About 1/4 inch of sight change needed. I think the math is done correctly because working it another way, we have 300 inches to the target. There would fit (300/10 our sight radius) or 30 gun movements to get to the target. If we change .266 inches every gun movement, two movements would be about half inch, but the target is 30 moves, so 30 x .266 = 7.98 inches. Hopefully the math is correct and this might be helpful. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Thanks. It sounds right. Should be able to work it out using some basic trig but I haven't used that in 40 years.
@@hazcat640 Over fifty for me. It seems to work out from looking at the amount I needed to get it zeroed. Math works, but so does trial and error at our ages. 😉😉..o.R.
@@oldranger3044 I went to college in my 30s 😉 Yeah, I hadn't planned on doing the whole tangent, cotangent thing and just using your experience and guidance. 👍
I use a 1858 front sight on one of mine.
So I have a pieta that has bore and chamber/cylinder diameter the same. I rarely come across this it was a first. It's my favorite and boy it's a shooter. The problem was it shot 15 foot high. I drilled out the front sight and used a partially threaded socket cap screw, cut the head off, and filed it till I hit. Was wondering if you have ever thought of doing somthing similar?
My first mods were something like that. Believe I pulled out the post bead sight, made the hole a bit deeper, threaded it and a brass braising rod in to get it higher. I assume yours is a 44, and usually shoots higher than the 36, so I didn’t need a lot more height. So I believe I’ve done similar, only on a smaller scale. Doing what I did on these makes the sight look more like the ones on the 1861’s or the SAA army, not that that’s important. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 ya it's a 44. It hits 3 inches high now at 25 dead on at 50 and 75 and 6 inches low at 100. Good enough for hunting and shooting now. Love your vids
@@wolfpack1384 Thanks. I’ll say you’ve got that dialed in. 2-3 high works well as the target can be seen just above the sights. Much better than having it covered by them and wondering where the blasted thing you’re shooing at is. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I'll have to do a vid and show you so you can see what I got maybe you'll like it
@@wolfpack1384 That sounds interesting. Just thinking is it possible someone reamed the chambers, or was it a new gun? I have a used Pietta “shooters” model that I believe had that done as the chambers are larger then in the one I bought new. O.R.
is there a way to take off the beaded sight
I’m a little forgetful about how I removed them years ago, sorry. I think I just got serious with pliers. Don’t recall them being soldered, just a press fit on most, but think I have one that was threaded, but that might have been not factory. . Brass will contract more than steel when cooled, so putting the barrel in plastic in the freezer before the operation might help. Once you start it is probably a one way street. After, I would decide on what thread size I wanted and use a bottom tap, thread the appropriate size brazing rod and shape it accordingly. Possibly this winter I could do a video on some methods I’ve used doing this because there’s probably some interest. Also it could help with deciding what method seems best and most comfortable. O.R.
👍🏼🤘🏼🤟🏽🇺🇸
Well Old Ranger - you sure made dat ole-gun mo powafool - does it teck glock mags now?
Cheers from NZ.
No man, not yet, but my Uberti Walker does!! O.R.
How can I contact you? I have a 1851 pistol grip I’d like to send you to see how you like it. It’s sycamore one piece with finger grooves and palm swells.
That grip sounds neat. I really don’t know of a method, not being of the savvy computer generation. Probably lucky enough to be able to edit and publish. However, that’s an interesting idea to make a custom target style for these shooters, I don’t know of a way to even send a picture. Quite possibly UA-cam has reasons for this now days. O.R.
So, you don't think they temper that barrel any?
I can’t speak from experience in manufacturing, but I never have had a problem cutting a dovetail for sights on any black powder barrel. So, I would bet heavily on no heat treatment. O.R.
*They're
wish you were my neighbor so you could work on my colt 1860 its shooting 2 feet to high at 20 yards
That somewhat takes the fun out of it. 3-4 inches a person can sort of work with. I changed the front on my 1860, it was probably 8-10 high, depending on the load. I realize that the manufacturer wants to keep things neatly original, but maybe an option for a higher front sight would have a following. O.R.
That’s the sights they should manufacture them with. That bead sight isn’t worth a damn. Hard to see at times in certain light.
I completely agree. The idea that it needs to be a total replica is ridiculous on this mostly because of the 44 caliber in this 51 framework. This only makes something that already shoots high only go higher. Put a sight that can be lowered if desired, and maybe wider so windage can be dealt with. Thanks. O. R.👍
@@oldranger3044 I agree 100%.
"They're". It's pretty sad if you misspell a word in your title!
Thanks. That’s something I can change pretty easily. I appreciate your picking up on this. I’m a little embarrassed but have had problems spelling for ever, so used to corrections. O.R.
Think the change went through. That goes back a long time. Probably 6th grade. Three kinds of that word (I think). A place (there), belonging to (their), and the abbreviation (they are). Anyway, you’re right, that doesn’t belong in a title. The good news you spotted it (no doubt others too), and I didn’t have to upload again because things are slow here, and a 15 min video takes 3 hours. Thanks again. O.R.
Can you make one for me plz lol
Now there’s an idea for a self business. Make a sight that comes with instructions on soldering. The down side is that in a couple years (if business is good), it could be hard to find a gun that hasn’t been messed with. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 true but you can always buy a new one from the factory. If the factory starts making an after market sight before you then you have no business and if you did make it first you would have to patent it or they would just steal it from you