I hope Krackatoa makes more of these videos explaining stuff like this, he does a really good job of showing examples and providing a sense of understanding
worth noting that you can also "win" an exchange when both player choose passive play, because you can do noncommittal movement as part of your passive / reactive play. Like, let's say you're in the corner and you just pushed the opponent out with FD. They choose to walk back and look for an anti-air or whiff punish, and you choose to dash-block. Now you're out of the corner. Both of you picked rock, but you won because you improved your positioning
Great point. The video mentioned who wins when the other corners clash but just made a really good joke for rock. Probably better that way though because as the video mentions none of this takes into account risk v reward and more advanced concepts.
I feel like every 3 months theres a new neutral video coming out and theyre all good which is good because theres always new comers but useless for me cause Im always playing rock
It's nice because there's a lot that goes into neutral, so watching only 1 video isn't enough to absorb everything. With all of them being made, and different people explaining it slightly differently, you can pick up one thing from one video, and another from another, and so on, allowing you to piece it all together
I figured this video would be about the Machaboo article, but it never really hit me that most people who hopped on with Strive have never seen these concepts at all, even probably some of the higher level players haven't internalized the idea of the 3 act structure of neutral
I never thought of neutral as it's own sort of mixup triangle like this, but it totally is! Great vid. To go on a tangent a bit, Pokken is a title that's really neutral focused not enough people appreciate: A lot of people view Pokken as an arena fighter due to the Phase Shift mechanic, but in reality the game still has unique movelists, cancels, just-frames, a height system (more on that below) like any other traditional FG in the 2d phase, and It's best to think of that as Pokken's core. The Phase shifting acts as a anti-infinite mechanic that forces a return to neutral in the Field/3d phase (which itself is sort of an added buffer layer of neutral). But most importantly, since the shift from 2d to 3d is dictated by the hidden PSP guage filling up (3d > 2d shifts happen on any heavy hit, hence why it's more a added layer of neutral then anything else), and different moves will add more or less points (or even remove points) to that guage, iit also acts as a anti-flowcharting and adaptation rewarding mechanic and a sort of resource management system: At a high level, you'll be altering your combo composition to end combos right when the PSP guage is maxed out, so your combos aren't interrupted by a shift. Also, sometimes you'll intentionally go for a lower damage combo or one that's less safe etc to intentionally either built less PSP, keeping the other player in the corner and under pressure in the hopes of winning another interaction for higher long term damage instead of cashing out (so sort of like a reset), causing a shift and allowing them to get back into neutral; or one that builds MORE PSP to shift faster, if YOU wanna get back to neutral and out of pressure faster or to get the meter and health regen causing a shifts gives. The way the game's height system works also encourages neutral and more adaptive play as well: Height in Pokken exists not as a way for offensive players to bypass blocking, but rather as a way for either player to bypass and punish other moves in their active frames. Think like how 2H's in DBFZ can bypass and punish aerials, except like half the moves in the game have invulnerability to moves of specific height states, and there's 8 height states rather then the usual 3 or 4. In practice, this gives a defensive player more opportunities to get reversals or break back to neutral, but still retains height mixups, in that if you expect the other player is gonna use a move of a given height (say on wakeup, or as a meaty, or in the middle of a blockstring, or in neutral), you can try to use a move that bypasses it to punish, but they know you can do that, so you still have the mixup mindgames there. In practice, both the Phase shift mechanic and the way height works means there's way more chances to get back to Neutral and time spent in Neutral in Pokken then some other titles. There's also not as many "win neutral/end footsies" tools (though there are absolutely some)in characters kits, but part of that is just because Pokken is slower paced. Bottom line is Pokken is sick and more people should play it.
That's some good analysis! When I play as Machamp, I like to purposefully end a juggle with a light hit or Wake-Up Slap to avoid Phase Shift and get a mix-up going. Pokken's Machamp is my favorite fighting game character, followed by Street Fighter's Zangief.
He has strong “long-term Chorus class sub turned full-time who I owe my love and appreciation of show tunes and musicals that turned into great conversation starters with my future wife that I met college” vibes. And I’m here for it
Round starts in GG strive are a perfect example on how the RPS decision making works in this game. Unless you are playing against Nago (I 90% chooose rock on Round start against Nagos just because the Risk/Reward is too big in Nago's favor)
It's important to mention that a lot of options can cover any corner of the neutral triangle. As it's shown in the video 6P can be done on reaction as an anti-air or as a preemptive counter-poke.
A fun example is when you run and block, to bait your opponent. They're preempting you, so you feint establish offence for a moment so they think they'll win and then you get them with the passive play.
This triangle is somewhat part of the reason why i kinda like playing the Ryus of the game more than other more specialist characters personally. Their options always have decent risk/reward in each part of the neutral so it feels very free-flowing to play neutral even if it can sometimes put a lot of stress on you to vary your options. That's just me though, i actually really enjoy playing against axl even if he wants me to suffer.
I tend to think of it more like this Preemptive>impulse>anticipation>… A preemptive forethought attack can’t work against someone anticipating an attack, but it does work against an impulsive attack that is disregarding offense temporarily to close a distance and attack, but where impulsivity does work, is when someone anticipates an attack, they’re waiting, hence launching instant offence catches them off guard
So in Street Fighter, would throwing a fireball be Pre-emptive? You're looking to hit somebody dashing/ pressing small buttons / The "Establishing" pillar? And by that logic, the way to beat fireballs is with the Passive Pillar? Do I have this right
no throwing a fireball may serve different purposes depending on the character, for Ryu it's a passive tool, forcing you to jump or block in order to make the opponent more predictable
I thought you best passive play with setup. You know, throw a slow projectile, set a trap, build meter, and, in Faust's case, item toss. Ik that not every character has these options but to be fair champs without a dash also can't do something like run up 2k.
Maybe in low level play but once people start thinking, I want to believe that changes. "Setting up" typically requires you to commit to an action, and they're relatively slow too. If your opponent is passively watching for you to do something and they've labbed the interaction, you're going to blow up or lose a lot of positioning.
@@haircutregrets294 I mean you can react to something like Zato summon pretty easily but you're not reacting to like Jack-o's minion toss every time. I will agree that set play, in Strive at least, is pretty weak if you can handle the situation though.
Some options can be in any corner of the neutral triangle. Throwing a projectile is a mix of establishing and preemptive play but it is definitely not passive. To determine what passive play is ask yourself "If my opponent did a jump in right now would i be in a position to anti-air?" And if the answer is no then you just commited to an option. If it was to stop something you knew your opponent was gonna do then it's preemtive play. If it's to punish your opponent for waiting by putting you in advantage then it's establishing play.
@@stewedfaster439 that guy posts a video in a disgusting room For everyone to see. Not sajam the other guy. Can’t believe non of you don’t think that’s a bad thing. You all must be filthy
Listen, I only made the video so I wouldn't have to explain the triangle in person to anyone ever again.
But what do the shapes meeeeeeeeeean?
based
I love you, man! I hope you keep making tutorials.
understandable
I love you Krackatoa
Krackatoa looks like a a person who lives in your wall but cooks for you and celebrates birthday with you
He looks like Lindybeige if he were passionate about fighting games instead of history.
@@Manglet762They look nothing alike.
@@FrostileNah there's totally something.
Average Faust main.
Faust irl
"He did a move and I don't even know if that shit was isocolese" so true bestie
I hope Krackatoa makes more of these videos explaining stuff like this, he does a really good job of showing examples and providing a sense of understanding
Every Faust.mp4 video has been my bible for the character, even the non-faust specific ones are incredible
worth noting that you can also "win" an exchange when both player choose passive play, because you can do noncommittal movement as part of your passive / reactive play. Like, let's say you're in the corner and you just pushed the opponent out with FD. They choose to walk back and look for an anti-air or whiff punish, and you choose to dash-block. Now you're out of the corner. Both of you picked rock, but you won because you improved your positioning
Great point. The video mentioned who wins when the other corners clash but just made a really good joke for rock. Probably better that way though because as the video mentions none of this takes into account risk v reward and more advanced concepts.
Lol Scissors vs BIGGER SCISSORS really got me
I feel like every 3 months theres a new neutral video coming out and theyre all good which is good because theres always new comers but useless for me cause Im always playing rock
something something 60 bucks to block
Good old rock, nothing beats that
Well the game does tell you LETS ROCK
It's nice because there's a lot that goes into neutral, so watching only 1 video isn't enough to absorb everything. With all of them being made, and different people explaining it slightly differently, you can pick up one thing from one video, and another from another, and so on, allowing you to piece it all together
Marv "the Sticky Bandit" Murchins handing out that neutral knowledge is what I'm here for!
I figured this video would be about the Machaboo article, but it never really hit me that most people who hopped on with Strive have never seen these concepts at all, even probably some of the higher level players haven't internalized the idea of the 3 act structure of neutral
It's 2d jazz
I never thought of neutral as it's own sort of mixup triangle like this, but it totally is! Great vid. To go on a tangent a bit, Pokken is a title that's really neutral focused not enough people appreciate: A lot of people view Pokken as an arena fighter due to the Phase Shift mechanic, but in reality the game still has unique movelists, cancels, just-frames, a height system (more on that below) like any other traditional FG in the 2d phase, and It's best to think of that as Pokken's core. The Phase shifting acts as a anti-infinite mechanic that forces a return to neutral in the Field/3d phase (which itself is sort of an added buffer layer of neutral). But most importantly, since the shift from 2d to 3d is dictated by the hidden PSP guage filling up (3d > 2d shifts happen on any heavy hit, hence why it's more a added layer of neutral then anything else), and different moves will add more or less points (or even remove points) to that guage, iit also acts as a anti-flowcharting and adaptation rewarding mechanic and a sort of resource management system:
At a high level, you'll be altering your combo composition to end combos right when the PSP guage is maxed out, so your combos aren't interrupted by a shift. Also, sometimes you'll intentionally go for a lower damage combo or one that's less safe etc to intentionally either built less PSP, keeping the other player in the corner and under pressure in the hopes of winning another interaction for higher long term damage instead of cashing out (so sort of like a reset), causing a shift and allowing them to get back into neutral; or one that builds MORE PSP to shift faster, if YOU wanna get back to neutral and out of pressure faster or to get the meter and health regen causing a shifts gives.
The way the game's height system works also encourages neutral and more adaptive play as well: Height in Pokken exists not as a way for offensive players to bypass blocking, but rather as a way for either player to bypass and punish other moves in their active frames. Think like how 2H's in DBFZ can bypass and punish aerials, except like half the moves in the game have invulnerability to moves of specific height states, and there's 8 height states rather then the usual 3 or 4. In practice, this gives a defensive player more opportunities to get reversals or break back to neutral, but still retains height mixups, in that if you expect the other player is gonna use a move of a given height (say on wakeup, or as a meaty, or in the middle of a blockstring, or in neutral), you can try to use a move that bypasses it to punish, but they know you can do that, so you still have the mixup mindgames there.
In practice, both the Phase shift mechanic and the way height works means there's way more chances to get back to Neutral and time spent in Neutral in Pokken then some other titles. There's also not as many "win neutral/end footsies" tools (though there are absolutely some)in characters kits, but part of that is just because Pokken is slower paced. Bottom line is Pokken is sick and more people should play it.
That's some good analysis! When I play as Machamp, I like to purposefully end a juggle with a light hit or Wake-Up Slap to avoid Phase Shift and get a mix-up going.
Pokken's Machamp is my favorite fighting game character, followed by Street Fighter's Zangief.
He has strong “long-term Chorus class sub turned full-time who I owe my love and appreciation of show tunes and musicals that turned into great conversation starters with my future wife that I met college” vibes.
And I’m here for it
Hey, a crossover between the two legends who taught me everything I know about fighting games. What a day.
Every time I think to myself that I've reached the limits of my neuch, I see a video like this and realize just how much I still can improve.
This is so helpful! Glad to find out about this video!
Round starts in GG strive are a perfect example on how the RPS decision making works in this game. Unless you are playing against Nago (I 90% chooose rock on Round start against Nagos just because the Risk/Reward is too big in Nago's favor)
I saw neutral.mp4 and thought it was going to be a Faust-flavored ricken clip
It's important to mention that a lot of options can cover any corner of the neutral triangle. As it's shown in the video 6P can be done on reaction as an anti-air or as a preemptive counter-poke.
A fun example is when you run and block, to bait your opponent. They're preempting you, so you feint establish offence for a moment so they think they'll win and then you get them with the passive play.
Why does Krack talk so quietly 💀
This dudes voice is smooth like Skippy
This triangle is somewhat part of the reason why i kinda like playing the Ryus of the game more than other more specialist characters personally. Their options always have decent risk/reward in each part of the neutral so it feels very free-flowing to play neutral even if it can sometimes put a lot of stress on you to vary your options. That's just me though, i actually really enjoy playing against axl even if he wants me to suffer.
I tend to think of it more like this
Preemptive>impulse>anticipation>…
A preemptive forethought attack can’t work against someone anticipating an attack, but it does work against an impulsive attack that is disregarding offense temporarily to close a distance and attack, but where impulsivity does work, is when someone anticipates an attack, they’re waiting, hence launching instant offence catches them off guard
now we get to start talking about mental stack
This guy's voice is excellent
yo, we love to see the FGC supporting other FGC passion projects 😄🙌
This seems like Sansukumi rushdown\whiffpunish/keepout that "that blasted salami" put out a video on in 2021. I like that video is good.
Instructions weren’t clear, I’ll just play against the CPU and cry for neo-rollback
As a Ky player, the way you beat passive play is with the unreactable 30f Greed Sever
Krack is my favorite FGC teacher
I love this guy
I think he's my dad
he's the long lost father we all need,but cannot get
Watched the original a few days ago it's so good.
fast 8 roll down on 4-2 into bottom 4, playing gork reroll on the waaagh set
Good ol' Rock, nothing beats that~ Except mashers. Damn...
So in Street Fighter, would throwing a fireball be Pre-emptive? You're looking to hit somebody dashing/ pressing small buttons / The "Establishing" pillar? And by that logic, the way to beat fireballs is with the Passive Pillar? Do I have this right
no
throwing a fireball may serve different purposes depending on the character, for Ryu it's a passive tool, forcing you to jump or block in order to make the opponent more predictable
Holy shit his microphone is rushing him down.
praise be krack
Rock propaganda? Rock is a 0 frame start up. It truly is in a tier of its own
great video
Krack da 🐐 no 🧢
Damn, I love Krackatoa
B I G G E R S C I S S O R S
Did anyone else notice how filthy that door handle is!! My dude needs a mr. clean dry eraser
Why is this guy whispering into the mic?
I have roommates and I make my videos at 4AM
@@Krackatoa props for being a good roommate 👍🏻
I need my vampire survivors fix
The thumbnails are becoming exceedingly more broken
I need this for SF6 please!
The same applies though?
Hey I watched your old video yesterday
I thought you best passive play with setup. You know, throw a slow projectile, set a trap, build meter, and, in Faust's case, item toss.
Ik that not every character has these options but to be fair champs without a dash also can't do something like run up 2k.
Maybe in low level play but once people start thinking, I want to believe that changes.
"Setting up" typically requires you to commit to an action, and they're relatively slow too. If your opponent is passively watching for you to do something and they've labbed the interaction, you're going to blow up or lose a lot of positioning.
@@haircutregrets294 I mean you can react to something like Zato summon pretty easily but you're not reacting to like Jack-o's minion toss every time.
I will agree that set play, in Strive at least, is pretty weak if you can handle the situation though.
Setting up is just a chance to establish your offense. It's the same principle.
Also why did you call them "champs" this isnt league
@@NeoBoneGirl we knew this would happen, just let him go. We're gonna look silly if we complain now when everyone is daying champ after Project L.
Some options can be in any corner of the neutral triangle. Throwing a projectile is a mix of establishing and preemptive play but it is definitely not passive. To determine what passive play is ask yourself "If my opponent did a jump in right now would i be in a position to anti-air?" And if the answer is no then you just commited to an option. If it was to stop something you knew your opponent was gonna do then it's preemtive play. If it's to punish your opponent for waiting by putting you in advantage then it's establishing play.
It's a new Diaphone video
then we have HC who gives a f. bout the triangle cuz counters everything at fullscreen
well most of the time its a spider web and not a triangle cause of so maany options :)
BAH HAAAA PRISTIME
That guy needs to pay more attention to his bedroom than playing guilty gear. Looks disgusting, I can smell it through my phone.
Probably smells nicer than your room.
@@unluckyspade7897 fact you think that’s normal tells me all I need to know about you
@@eh4372 wtf is blud waffling on about 💀💀💀
@@stewedfaster439 that guy posts a video in a disgusting room
For everyone to see. Not sajam the other guy. Can’t believe non of you don’t think that’s a bad thing. You all must be filthy
@@eh4372 how are you this mad over literally nothing
This was an annoying video about someone else annoying video. Why does so many talk so annoying and bad