There is No Speed Limit to Playing Neutral
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- streamed May 26, 2021
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Match footage courtesy of Team Spooky:
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• UMVC3 TA Moons vs @gol...
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#FGC #Sajam #UMvC3
I believe in neutral anarchy, where walking forward and throwing out an armored button can count as neutral
I mean some characters rely on armor 2 get in. Played against a zangief who would just walked at me and jump. Didn't use st. HP or vSkill. He could have punished me but didnt and I zoned him out with 2 buttons. Armor forces your opponent to think, I didn't have to.
Potemkin neutral
I found the tekken player
@@kyokusada4825 Patch 4.20 babyyy, Heihachi's df1 reaches further than Twitter users trying to make a point
I believe in neutral anarchy, where walking backwards and throwing out half screen normals and/or projectiles can count as neutral.
To paraphrase someone from Twitch chat: "I run up immediately and get hit every time, therefore the game has no neutral"
That's funny but not what I think the "wahh no neutral" people are talking about. To them they envision this super high iq chess match neutral where neither player is running up, but instead just micro walking back and forth with intermittent down back holds for several seconds while they stare at each other and telepathically download their opponents future moves with the brain matter that's leaking out of their ears.
That sounds like _they_ have no neutral.
Anyone who thinks high speed and mobility equals no neutral has never played Melty Blood, in a bathroom or otherwise.
Real neutral can only exist on a CRT sitting on top of a toilet bowl
Air footsies time.
TOD combos don't count as neutral.
@@baltharaaz9847 That's Airsies!
@@DragoonCenten ah yes, melty blood actress again current code, well known for its copious TODs that regularly occur in real matches
"Neutral" means you and the opponent are in an even situation, and are free to make any decision next.
"Neutral" to screaming people, means "let me win"
Exactly. And, by that definition, every single fighting game out there has neutral.
@@ryumanjisen3494 Yup. Some DO have a higher neutral-per-match ratio than others, though.
I feel like Guilty Gear Strive has a very high neutral ratio. You're back in neutral after nearly every situation, but it's still fast and hardly feels like a compromise (imo).
Power Rangers Battle for the Grid also comes to mind.
@@DaviddeBergerac Indeed, neutral is more important in some game than others... although I believe it's a main aspect in almost every single FG out there.
saying something "skips neutral" is the dumbest shit ngl
"Neutral is for chumps"
- Sol Badguy, after using Ground Viper for the third time in a match
My footsies are dragon installed ground vipers.
"But what if they block Grand Viper Sol?"
"Blocking? In my anime game?"
*Proceeds to Volcanic Viper every knockdown*
@@felixc.4294 When I get knocked down and the opponent just walks to Sol to get oki, I look at the camera and the Seinfeld theme plays
@@Sorrelhas I play testament, so sol can DP my DP-safe oki all day if he wants to lol
...only 3 times? Gotta pump those numbers up, those are rookie numbers!
A lot of people's idea of neutral is 2 Ryu players walking forward and back only hitting low forward 🙄
TeH fOoTsIeS!!!!1111!!!
There’s a game called footsies that is exactly that lol. It’s a good watch/play, there’s even a secret demon input.
Sounds like bronze in ranked
@@tootsie_ bronze players would be rushing down the enemy without thinking and then blame the game when he got punish for it
Exactly as it should be.
The speed limit is 66 because forward dashing skips neutral. :)
Aha....
Ba Dum Tss!
LOVED THIS
XD
Gonna make a fighting game where the round starts with both characters knocked down. Then, there's no neutral, only oki.
Lmao even then its neutral because both players are knocked down and recover at the same time. But still sounds funny.
@@AspynDotZip Isn't this basically how they do starts in olympic wrestling except after penalties instead of coin tosses?
@@AspynDotZip Exactly what I was going to say. Or it could be matchup based. Also, if both players stand around too long, one will randomly fall over to prevent neutral from occurring.
Sounds like a Vanilla Ice mirror on Fightcade against a 900 ping Brazilian.
@@jimbo5266 ssbb
I remember when I was playing Plus R against a streamer, one stoner kept repeating "look at this dude trying to play neutral in guilty gear lol". I was playing my regular Axl. A zoner.
I wanna catch that guy with my Justice but we all know he doesn’t play gg if he’s saying shit like that lol
zoning?
but GG is a wrestling game
10:06 "Ew green stuff bad"
Sajam predicted people's opninions on drive rush
I think fast games can also be intimidating to people who aren't used to them because they have this misconception that you have to be paying attention to every little thing that is going on in order to play. But in my experience, as you play fast games more, you start to filter what you are actually paying attention to. Just takes some time.
there is different things you need to pay attention to for fast games and slow games
@@noticeme6412 Exactly. And each character in each type of game has different stuff to watch for. Just gotta give yourself time to get accustomed to it.
It isn’t faster. It’s just more mobility
@@stolensentience exactly, more mobility options generally means stuff going quicker
@@stolensentience... it's absolutely faster, what the hell are you talking about? No person in their right mind would claim Guilty Gear isn't faster than Samurai Shodown or Street Fighter. Mobility & speed are very different things.
So glad somebody with some presence said this. It’s fucking exhausting listening to people complain about “no neutral” as if such a thing is even possible
Have you played Dragonball
I thought Dragon Ball had neutral.
The beam attacks.
You guys are taking it too literally. Ofc MKX technically has neutral, but because of the run button and armor moves there is almost no footsies, spacing etc. It’s so fast that you have to rely on predictions more than in a game like Street Fighter where you can react and maneuver
Maybe people don't notice the neutral decisions in mvc3 because half of them happen off screen
lmao
nah most people just cannot compute whats going on due to the speed, there are plenty of loud, clear sound queues to be heard when an assist is called, just that most people are incapable of understanding the situation because of the pace of the game, but i cannot blame them when its such a fast paced, high skill ceiling, technical game like marvel
This whole video was great, but I think what really ties it all together is how after the slow and methodical minutes-long breakdown of each and every interaction, Sajam just replays the entire match again without pausing and it's like "holy shit how many times does Doctor Doom get sniped, how do you keep up with this"
Also I get the thumbnail, it's amazing (as always) Moste :)
This is the first time in 8 years I understand what's going on in Marvel 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Now try watching mvc2.
People have been saying anime airdashers have no neutral for years
Yep. They didn't realize that what constitutes "neutral" isn't universal and thought that any game faster than [insert SF game here] had none.
Love your Eiki pfp
On the flip side the decision making usually gets more complex in a slower game. Overwhelming the opponent by playing fast in a game that allows you to effectively play that way is more important than playing "right" and calculated. It's a 100% legit playstyle.
Daigo actually talked about this why a player like Onuki who was so dominant in older SF titels struggles to reach the same success in the modern ones, while Daigo is still a world class player. Like imagine if you only had 1 second to consider your opponents moves in Chess, yeah it would be a totally different game and not necessary a more complex one.
Two different skillsets, both are cool.
It's sweet to see a player like SonicFox just overwhelm his opponents with high speed pressure and split-second decision making.
But it's also really sweet to see a player like Daigo land 10 out of 10 flashkicks in a set due to his understanding of the game and his opponents psyche.
Didn't think about this at all but I like it! You're right that with chess the complexity goes way up with more time so I can understand how something similar could happen with a FG. It does depend how deep the game is or the matchup even.
Great comment. Sums this whole thing up perfectly
"Like imagine if you only had 1 second to consider your opponents moves in Chess, yeah it would be a totally different game and not necessary a more complex one."
that's called bullet chess (which falls under the larger category of speed chess) and a lot of chess players (including some of the best in the world) actually like it because it forces you to play in a more intuitive and creative manner
Finally, Sajam admits that Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 4 is a ground-based footsies fighting game
KOF players are breathing very heavily right now
How fast you can process information and reaction times might be a real barrier to how much you can appreciate fast paced neutral games. But just because you would crash a Formula 1 car on a speedway doesn't mean it's not a car.
Neutral is in every fighting game. Whether the game is slow or fast, clean or chaotic, and whether you think about your decisions or not, there is neutral.
Marvel seconds are like real seconds but s l o w
There wasn't a single combo in that game that hit the double digits. That's how good this analogy works.
Neutral is a state where both players don't have any particularly overwhelming advantage.
Saying that a fast game has no neutral is kinda dumb cuz it implies that one person already has pressure on another just by the characters they're playing
@Byron Martin Even with those fringe cases, that doesn't mean the game itself lacks neutral. There will always be a situation whether it be at round start, near the end or when two players are waddling back and forth where both players have no advantage over one another.
Unless your character is a Kamen Rider Kabuto character from any Climax Heroes game or has Za Warudo, there shouldn't be a situation where a character is just standing still AND is still at advantage.
Lots of people have zero idea what neutral or footsies even mean. I've literally seen people with a straight face say gg has no neutral while watching Johnny vs Faust. They will watch John 6p a Faust 5s, or Faust 2Hing a Johnny 5H across the screen and still say gg is all oki.
10:32 "Oh shit we're playing Noöch"
Alternate Title: Just cause it isn't Street Fighter, doesn't mean it don't have neutral
It’s always been funny to me when people say Marvel 3 has no neutral because it’s the game that taught me the importance of good movement and controlling the screen.
The only way a game would NOT have neutral is if you could literally not walk backward or stand still
...just constantly running at the opponent
that still neutral tho?
When you strike, block, or jump would effectively be neutral
that would still have neutral because presumably buttons would still stop you in place
Sounds like a fun parody game. Imagine a fighter where by default both of the characters run into each other and cannot backjump.
This was actually such an awesome video. I've never been able to follow MvC but breaking it down was great, you really can see all the decisions.
Sajam saying "Ew, green stuff bad" in relation to people not liking fast neutral was incredibly prophetic about the SF6 discourse.
This is what newer smash fans sound like when talking about Melee. It's actually funny because I used to not like fighting games (especially street fighter) for a multitude of reasons but then I started playing competitive Melee. After that the first true "Fighting Game" I played was DBFZ because I love Dragonball and I was researching Marvel since I heard it was the "Melee of fighting games". I played DBFZ and the pace was really fast but I started to get it. Then now I am coming to all these fighting games I was never able to get into and the difference between SFV is like *sips tea* "mmmmm yes indeed, sometimes it is nice to slow down the game pace and just walk back and forth throwing out pokes/fireballs once in a while"
There's some kind of mental association between slow and strategy in some people. It's not just the FGC either, I've heard similar dismissals in other genres too.
Having arguments picked apart and things pointed out by this man Sajam is my kink
I had the most intense neutral game I have ever experienced in any fighting game when I played Goldlewis against a Anji
melty neutral exists cause of good anti-airs rarely being present in kits. it's just different. but neutral still exists despite air mobility being good. it's not all air-to air since not all characters are good in the air(pciel for instance is slow in the air and can't cancel air normals into air normals like other characters). but the game still has grounded and air neutral.
To this day, Nova vs. Magento is one of my favorite matchups to watch in any fighting game ever.
probably the 2nd best matchup to watch, 1st being magneto mirror match, just the sheer movement, plinking, mag blasts, literal 300+ APM gameplay from both sides, so sick
@@sparda_ I can concur with that too lmao.
FGC: "[Insert game here] sucks because it's too fast paced and has no neutral/footsies. It's gimmicky af."
Also FGC: "[Insert game here] sucks because it's too slow and neutral/footsie based. We wanna do cool combos and other crazy shit."
Developers: "Screw it, let's just make a fighting game about [Insert anime here] that the casual gamer might enjoy. Time for us to touch some real money."
FGC: "Wtf bro?! Hey [Insert streamer here] why don't developers listen to the community?"
Streamer: "Because the community doesn't know what it wants. CASUALS, however, are much easier to please."
shocker. it's almost as if 'community' implies more than 1 person with potentially differing opinions.
@@vidboy_etc I'm guessing you're new to the concept of jokes...
@@kaioken301 you too
@@yusharider Already fed one troll. The rest of you will have to go without.
@@kaioken301 I genuinely thought you were replying to someone on a comment that you didn't make. I apologize, and I need glasses 🙇♂️
Nova is so cool in this game. I'm sad the early 2010 Nova renaissance never materialized.
I have the utmost respect for people who are able to get so good at a game like Marvel, they can make such minute decisions on the fly under so much pressure. This was a great analysis, Stephen!
as far as i can tell, marvel neutral means spamming the doom missile button
Great points in the video.
I think when people say a game has no neutrals, they usually mean there's powerful options which will easily end neutrals, such as high mobility moves that are + on block, or approach options that are too safe.
It could also mean that neutrals isn't a large enough factor to winning. For example, a game where winning neutral once leads to endless momentum, and not enough viable options to be able to escape that momentum.
Sajam talking about neutral speed just makes me think of dragon ball. The whole “they’re moving faster than you can see” line. That’s what I imagine when people complain about slow neutral
Everything is rushdown didn't you get the memo Sajam?
European man said so, so it's true
It's crazy how casual who can barely play a fighting game property,tell pro players a game has no neutral because it's fast. 🤣😆
I don't think they're casual, more like they have a very narrow view of what they consider "neutral".
Well, they're probably people that only play SF, because practically every other series (KOF, Tekken, Anime games, heck even VF) are way faster paced, and the neutral is harder to understand than walk forward, back, poke, whiff punish.
I love how every team fighting game is just like : "Sir, how fast do you want the gam-?" "Y E S"
THIS is the video both the FGC and FG developers need to watch, right now. Thanks for the educational content. It has been so frustrating to hear that "MKX has no neutral cause you can run" argument, I swear...
That was such a sick analyzation of the GB and TA moons game, helped my feeble little brain understand marvel for a few minutes :)
this is one of my favorite sajam vids, i've watched this like 8 times
Neutral is like vegetables.
Best comparison I've ever heard.
I think the lesson we can all take from this game is that marvel is great and everyone should play it more.
i actually some how magically got into a player match yesterday in umvc3 on pc. it lagged like shit and neutral consisted of me spamming foot dive and the other guy spamming roll on frank with arthurs twin dagger assist, some things never change
Man my speakers kinda suck, I gotta raise the volume mad high to hear you Sajam.
Nah Sajam has always been at 50% volume on his stream. I have to turn my system volume to max to hear him.
@@MiloticMaster Okay so its not just me then. I would be nice if he turned his microphone volume up a bit then. As long as there is no distortion.
The topic the video is on is dope but your analysis of that 35 seconds of gameplay is fucking impressive man! I would have been thinking these guys are just jumping around but you break it down to an art form!
As Sol in Plus R, I just run at people until I have enough meter to cannonball myself at them, or DI and run at them menacingly.
Yo, Sol is so fun lol
Walk forward *menacingly.*
Even dbfz that has universal neutral skips with vanish and super dash most of the game is neutral or blockstrings
My thing with fast games isn’t that there’s no neutral, it’s just that my brain does not go fast enough to process the decisions lmao.
I’m fucking stressed after blocking 30 df1s in Tekken, I can’t imagine some of these games with like 5 frame moves. I’d be a fucking old man after two matches.
ROAD SAFETY LAWS, PREPARE TO BE IGNORED
Great video. You explained it way better than I could and I will link to this video as a example till the end of my life.
Didn't' know that Gears was the broccoli of fighting games. No wonder they taste so good!
Great video as always. The explanation of the motives behind each action were excellent.
I think the 'speed' of the game has very little impact on how much neutral occurs. SF4 is relatively slow by comparison to most anime fighters, but get caught it one of its many cyclones and there won't be much neutral will there?
In fact, in games like Strive/BB, Pot and Tager the SLOWEST characters are the ones who deny neutral the most, because they often rely on 50/50 mixups.
BB has low neutral not because its fast, but because you can confirm 40-60% damage off of most hits at a high level and almost every combo leads into good oki, this coming from a BB fan.
As has been pointed out before, Neutral is just the period where both players can press buttons. It is NOT synonymous with footsies, or grounded footsies or anything like it.
If you don't like anime fighters because the footsies are partially airborne and require some harder reads and have bigger consequences than other games, fair enough, but complaining about their 'lack of neutral' just because they're faster than you're comfortable with is just disingenuous. Something doesn't cease to exist because you don't like it.
"No neutral" is just one of the blanket terms people use if they don't like a modern fighting game.
I think I enjoy neutral in like a direct relation to how many movement options you have and how many ways you can convert off stray hits. Guilty gear, blazblue, melty blood, and kof are all really addicting for this.
Stray hits leading to such critical damage often has the inverse effect to what these people assume in that it makes neutral EXTREMELY important even in the context of these games that aren't tag fighters.
PSA: Neutral and footsies don't mean the same thing.
Fast neutral is cool, its the TOD combos that get me
always nice to see a Phoenix player get humbled
That Thumbnail is hot fire..
I personally love slower paced neutral like sf4. It gets super tense when both players can react to each other stuff/risky options like jump ins etc. Love games like +R though, which is on the opposite end.
Mike Ross' Honda vs Honda match way back in SF4 is the pinnacle of neutral :P
That example was crazy. All that in 35 seconds, blows my mind. MVC3 too fast for me to play. :x
Thx for the good breakdown.
You understand neutral when you start seeing neutral in 1 touch death games.
I've come from the future to rewatch this after watching the latest neutral video on the channel
Man, this really helps me understand how little I understand Marvel. It's so fast and so much going on!
That last bit about having to work harder to enjoy watching fast paced neutral explains why I struggle to watch games I'm not familiar with for more than maybe 10 minutes, it all blurs together to me
I think it's a bit more about the feel of how much time is spent in the neutral, whether there's any mid-range poking/footsies, mechanics that have that "skip neutral" feel, and other elements that contribute to the game feel. This is why the genre was at it's least approachable for about 10 years. The fast pace and lack of time, per round, spent in the neutral (compared to pressure and combos) feels un-fun to more people than it appeals to.
In game development, what matters most is that the feel of the game retains the majority of people who purchase and try the game and the game has to hook the player within the first 30 mins (on average). Otherwise the player will go play one of the myriad other games readily available.
Neutral exists in all fighting games with one exception
playing against sonic in smash
I thought nuetral in marvel was the state of your stick when you let go of your controller after being touched.
Damn, that was some absolutely juicy marvel analysis. I'm gonna need a cigarette after that.
To be real tho that is the most neutral heavy mvc3 match I've ever seen
Neutral going over 69 mph will get you a $420 fine.
I didn't realize Marvel 3 was the chess of fighting games.
Yeah , I've seen how the people, that claim MKX has no neutral play. It usually goes like this :
MkX hAs NoOo NEutRal
*immediately runs into jab string and dies*
Right but characters like Makoto were designed to negate neutral with her fast dash and EX hayate (albeit was used as a whiff punishment tool mostly) that’s why it took ‘till the next game and the 3rd update which was AE for her crouch MP to be more useful in neutral.
Note:I’m a Makoto main.
As a Melty player I got that a lot "this game is too aerial and too fast, thus it doesn't have neutral" thankfully that dark age is in the past, ppl today are much more mindful
i define neutral as the decsions being made when both players are neither + nor - on block generally.
I wouldnt say MVC3 has no neutral, its just a high stakes neutral where if you lose neutral once you usually end up losing the match. It definitely has less frequent neutral, where as in a game like SF, losing a couple neutral interactions doesnt lead to losing the whole round as much. This is why the phrase "1-player game" was popularized from the mvc3 days, cuz if you lose neutral once at high level, you are getting unreactable oki'd to death.
hey that vegetable enjoyment phase hits pretty close to me! coming from moderately paced games, at the end of ggst's 2nd open beta, I got a match with milia with me playing ino, although I'm sure we're unoptimal, being newcomers/midlevel players, we were buzzing across the screen and back and at some point I reached a cathartic state where my actions are no longer processed 100% by my brain. Much like the 6yo me would never understand the enjoyment of fresh crisp lettuce, the 25yo me might not understand that it's possible to not think and make the correct decision at the same time, multiple times.
KOF has a nice neutral with all the hops and rolls and stuff available for movement at high speed. KOF feels like im autopiloting and looking for a chance sometimes.
It's really interesting because it feels like a lot of the neutral is knowing how to anti-air something at many different angles and timings, or to do something that will cover both grounded and aerial approaches.
@@jimbo5266 Use one button and change the timing is the usual KOF for me. King's stand C, Terry's DF C, Ryo's downC. You need either a standing straight or a mexican uppercut.
KoF RPS is low b beats jab, jab beats hop in, hop in beats low b. Obvs more but that is the basest.
I know I'm late but I agree on this in Kof has neutral even though you see people trying to do short hop everytime but still a lot of decision making goes into Kof's neutral
I have always believed neutral was everything up into a combo. I don't get people who think speed gets rid of neutral.
Because they only think neutral exists when NO COMBO HAPPENS. It's a stupid view, and that's why they think Guile is OP because he "doesn't need to combo".
They dumb.
I think it's because of SF4, and SF in general, where people believed they could boil down neutral to "footsies" and "footsies" was boiled down to standing at specific ranges and whiff-punishing buttons. This type of neutral became practically worshiped, or at least it looked that way to me. But, it led to people thinking anything else wasn't neutral, and of course people were pissed when SFV came out and the game was more offense heavy. (Though SFV still obviously has a lot of this whiff-punishing style gameplay.)
To be fair, though, a lot of people define neutral as something other than just everything that's not a combo. It's different from oki situations or mixup situations. If you're being frame-trapped or mixed up, you're not at neutral, you're in a pressure situation, at least according to some definitions.
I'm pretty sure being locked into a blockstring (especially if in a game where you have little to no option to force yourself out of it before there's a gap) doesn't count as neutral.
@@SoysauceML i would argue that a blockstring and a combo and not functionaly different enough to ruin my definition.
I mean when we boil it down, is blocking a high/low mix up neutral? How many hits till it stops being neutral?
@@Envy11235
Neutral is what the name implies, when neither characters are in advantageous state and both are free to move around. If you can get neutral is done, if the attacker can't capitalize on it then it returns to neutral.
Lies! There is only neutral when two people are on the ground walking back and forth, otherwise zero neutral
when i think of a game with a lack of neutral i think of unist. speed has nothing to do with it. whether a game has more or less neutral than another game just comes down to what percent of the round is spent where neither player is in hitstun or blockstun. in unist this percent seems to be waaaay lower than any other game i've played. round starts, you move around for 2 seconds, someone throws out a full-screen normal and it leads into a 20 second blockstring, you get mixed, knocked down in the corner, wakeup in a blender, repeat until the round ends.
Another way to talk about this is to consider how hard/easy it is to play neutral in a game. While pointing at a high level clip of a game and using it to say "look this game has neutral" is valid for saying that for the spectator experience the game has neutral, the player experience. The high level player experience is not valid for 99% of the playerbase.
For the sake of argument let's say there is a game where at the highest level of play there is a lot of neutral choices that can be made. But let's also say that all the neutral on display is **really** hard to do and there also exist buttons and options that let you skip neutral that are fairly easy to do. While neutral would still exist, for 99% of the player base the game would be overwhelmingly defined by skipping neutral and neutral options would feel weak.
or tl;dr there is no speed limit to player neutral, but maybe there is a skill limit to playing neutral
It isn’t that it doesn’t have neutral it just isn’t nearly as much the focus of the game. And some would argue that neutral is where all the tension is, especially for spectators
"there is no speed limit to playing neutral"
>thumbnail is three umvc3 characters, entire video is umvc3, no other game
rightfully so, but also fuckin hilarious
How do you… think that fast?
What is this dnd alignment chart of footsies. Fucking chaotic good ken Vs true neutral Ryu and shit
The only neutral in sol matches is the pre fight cutscene that plays before he fights ky
I accept marvel as complex neutral but I won't eat my veggies
I believe this idea comes from the misconception of Space Control on Neutral = Full Zoning. Maybe you should do a video about it.
It looks like some people consider neutral as a synonym to footsies.
The faster the game, the faster the neutral is.
I feel like the only a way a game can "not have a neutral" is if it were to flatout be a game of tug-of-war with no timer and only 1 button to mash; whoever mashes harder wins. And at that point it's not a fighting game. I mean, unless there's no decisions to be made and the game recipe is simply [RNG+execution], there's gotta be some sort of neutral. It really does just come down to "I don't like/understand that game's neutral" instead of "it has no neutral".