Does Narcissism Exposure Cause Depression? | Narcissism Exposure at Work
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
- This video answers the question: Does narcissism exposure cause depression? Is there a depressogenic effect of narcissism? This question is looking specifically at work settings but the answer may apply to additional types of interactions.
Narcissism:
There are two types of narcissism: With grandiose narcissism we see characteristics like being extroverted, socially bold, self-confident, having a superficial charm, being resistant to criticism, and being callous and unemotional. Vulnerable narcissism is characterized by shame, anger, aggression, hypersensitivity, a tendency to be introverted, defensive, avoidant, anxious, depressed, socially awkward, and shy.
Depression:
Depression represents a set of symptoms that are usually considered in the context of major depressive disorder, persistent depressive disorder, and bipolar disorder. Symptoms of depression include low mood, loss of interest in activities that are normally pleasurable, difficulty sleeping, fatigue, appetite changes, feelings of worthlessness, having trouble concentrating, and other difficulties. Depression is typically episodic, meaning it tends to come and go. About 17% of individuals will have a major depressive episode at some point in their lives. The global cost of depression from lost productivity is approaching $1,000,000,000,000 annually.
Tokarev, A., Phillips, A. R., Hughes, D. J., & Irwing, P. (2017). Leader dark traits, workplace bullying, and employee depression: Exploring mediation and the role of the dark core. Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 126(7), 911-920.
Krasikova, D. V., Green, S. G., & LeBreton, J. M. (2013). Destructiveleadership a theoretical review, integration, and future research agenda.Journal of Management, 39,1308-1338.dx.doi.org/10.1177/01492063124...
Hoel, H., Cooper, C. L., & Faragher, B. (2001). The experience of bullyingin Great Britain: The impact of organizational status.European Journalof Work and Organizational Psychology, 10,443-465.dx.doi.org/10.1080/13594320143...
Baughman, H. M., Dearing, S., Giammarco, E., & Vernon, P. A. (2012).Relationships between bullying behaviours and the Dark Triad: A studywith adults.Personality and Individual Differences, 52,571-575.dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.paid.2011...
Oh Gawd, Yes! It wears you down, it causes stress. It reduces your ability to cope. I don't see how it can't lead to depression!
Lost my ability to cope! Exactly!! When I finally quit after 12 years I burned that bridge!! They got off on trying to piss me off. When I got a promotion they all turned on me. I only wanted to help and support my coworkers. Ugly shit. ;*[
@@lesliepfeifer8518 watch the video I posted in my other comment below and let me know if this is what happened to you!
I can't say that I worked for a single "narcissist" but definitely at an organization where everyone was out for themselves. Nobody gave a crap about me, and when I would ask for time off (as a single person) to be able to care for myself - like if I were really sick, they wouldn't allow me the time and space to do so. Several times I had these preventable cascading health failures and only when I absolutely could not work because I was so, so sick (like literally hospitalized and my doctors saying "no" you can't work") would they even pay attention to my needs. I was taken for granted. I wasn't a human. After 13 years, with no opportunities for promotion because nobody would support me (even though they were very pleased with my work!), I had to leave. Really for my own health! It was really hard, and several times since, I have been scapegoated by really unscrupulous managers. I always strive to be honest, and treat people with respect. I have integrity. I'm also a people pleaser. I always thought that saying "yes" was the path to success. I've realized in my middle-age, that "no" it is not. Especially when you work with people who don't have a lot of empathy...
It does wear you down, doesn't it.
@@mirjanadolenec3099 these people will kill your spirit. There's a reason why some people call narcissistic abuse "spiritual abuse".
I worked in a viper pit full of narcissists, it was a constant head game. as well I was married to a narc. I've been away from the job and got a divorce 4 years ago. I was diagnosed major depressive disorder shortly after. It got worse up until a couple days ago but that can always turn on a dime. One sad result of my experience is I do not like people, I can not, and will not take Crap from one more human being. It makes it hard to keep a job. I just felt I defined myself by these people approving of me. An d when I started sticking up for myself I was a psycho bitch. It all has shattered me. But I'm on the other side after years of therapy and medications. I think I will be alright. It's good to watch your videos, I feel validated!!
Thank you🌻
Leslie Pfeifer Hugs to you Leslie.
😍😍😍😍😥🤗😔
💕
Exposure to narcissism and psychopathy can indeed lead to depression in the workplace and at home. Narcissists and psychopaths attack the self-esteem of their targets with the aim of deliberately inflicting pain. It's no surprise that this study underscores this phenomenon. Thank you for another insightful video, Dr. Grande!
Thanks for doing in the workplace though, because it is harder to avoid narcissists and work than in your personal relationships. I feel like most of us would have one in the workplace.
It does 💯 These people are horrible & drain the happiness out of you!
I've likely been with a narcissist for four years. It has been a nightmare. However, I have a massive issue with boundaries. I already had self esteem issues, anxiety and depression. He just fed off of that. I can't change other people, but I can work hard at fixing my boundaries and self esteem issues. So that is what I am doing.
Chile, leave them. You think your self worth is shit now, stay with them and you will be worse.
@@SweetBlackSistah I have, but I am working on the things about myself that put me in that position. I stayed in a four year relationship that was shitty the whole time. I don't want to do that again. I need to work on a lot of things about myself.
Get out of that relationship. Ot will never get better and only get worse. Your self esteem will be chipped away daily until your anxiety and depression will be at dangerous levels. I had this happen to me. I got out, but not before becoming an alcohalic. I beat the alcohalism and got my life back. It wouldn't have happened if I hadn't gotten a divorce and stopped having ANY contact with my ex-narc.
@@jenniferwills3095 Yeah. I've realised that. I am having nothing to do with anybody who knows him. Some of them are absolutely lovely people, but yeah.
Take care of yourself and try to keep safe - loves from Sweden
In general, I don’t believe people put enough thought into who they promote. Thanks Dr Grande, I’m gonna share this video
I work in IT and it's usually the person who is least resistant to the idea of being a leader that gets promoted (or the one who has been with the company for the longest). Based on my own experience, majority of people in IT just wants to do the technical work and minimize interaction with other people, so there's an utter lack of leadership material there. Ironically, it's the exact opposite on the sales/marketing/business side (when someone does not get promoted to a management or expert role, they are considered a loser of sorts). There you get the most unscrupulous people imaginable.
@@brusselsprout5851 You mentioned yet another type that I forgot. Some people get appointed to a leadership role just because they are obedient and they are going to implement whatever is asked of them. Although this might look unscrupulous on the surface, it's really just a lack of confidence to push back against bad ideas. Some people are just too agreeable to the point where they cause trouble for people around them (good intent, bad outcome).
@@brusselsprout5851 You can't fix all the wrong in the world. The only rational thing you can do is not let it disturb your peace of mind. It can be extremely hard at times, but well worth the training/effort.
all of this is so destructive. Upper management doesn't bother to check with how the staff feels about management. It's first mover advantage for these managers to ingratiate themselves to upper management so that if any underlings do complain, it will be met with indifference or an attitude of that they are the problem and leadership has already heard the manager's complaints of the staff or staff member. It's about first mover advantage and patrons and pawns. Sadly, it turns a workplace into a scenario like the movie, Office Space. People wind up doing JUST enough to not get fired. It completely leads to depression and very low morale.
Thank you for this Dr Grande.
If only this was public knowledge that was taken seriously 😑
I’ve been saying for years, the majority of people like work, it’s the behaviour of some of the people they work with that make it miserable.
Everybody should share, make this viral 😊.
Validating 👍🏻💕
This is life-changing Dr. Grande. You’re the best.
Great video. I think we need much more information about workplace narcissism, psychopathy etc. I work in health. People assume that health workers are nice people (a lot of them are) but the reality is there are many cluster B type managers and when you look specifically at surgeons there is a high rate of psychopathy and other disorders. Lots of very narcissistic doctors and nurses (Lots of covert nurses in my experience). We spend a huge amount of time at work often more time than with partners. Workplaces need to be a safe and healthy place to be.
Yes, without a doubt, yes! Absolutely.
Don't go on any boats. My lawyer told me that. Too easy for them to get away with murder.
This confirms my recent experiences. I had to turn down a job because the dark core was strongly evident in my potential boss. He even said he was diagnosed with antisocial PD and then I started to put it together that this was not a situation for me. The disappointment contributed to my current state of depression where past negative events come to the fore of my consciousness. I am looking forward to getting back into the swing of things and making a societal contribution.
You have to put your own mental health and wellbeing first. Life is too short to be exposed to those that can do such harm. Good luck in finding a better position.
I'm glad you made the right choice! Good luck to you!
@@sarasimm6668 omg your is is so cute!🐵
Narcs, especially malignant narcs, are often known as "spiritual vampires". If you are reading this and are a victim of a narc, I wish you strength and the ability to break free.
It causes depression in the discoverer. We lose hope of an alternative outcome. We realise we have been pathologically lied to. We realise everything is an illusion.
You can't work well with a toxic person above you.
Is it possible you could do something on how to handle threats/the smear campaign of a narcissist or sociopath? Sometimes they will do things like try to get people after you or turn others against you to socially isolate you, try to make you lose your job etc. What can someone do in that situation, even if other people believe what the narcissist/sociopath says? Often the victim did nothing to deserve this and for one reason or another are simply targeted.
Dr. Grande, thank you so much for covering this topic. It helps validate my own experiences. Unfortunately, if it is bad enough, work place bullying by narcissistic/ sociopathic/ psychopathic colleagues can - in my experience - lead to more than depression. In my case it led to post traumatic stress syndrome.
Not only did my former employer lose a great deal of money; so did I (and I lost much more than money).
The only thing I would have added to the video is the impact of the flying monkey(s) in this type of situation, because the toxic bully might not be a direct manager of their victim(s) but can employ line managers, etc., to do their dirty work.
Thank you again for this very important video.
Lorca, while not being an expert in psychology, did a really great job with this in his play "The House of Bernarda Alba." The mother is a tyrannical narcissist, and her many daughters are all shown either depressed or incredibly aggressive to each other. In an interview, the writer commented his inspiration came from a real situation in his childhood's town. I don't think any other play ever written has captured this "atmosphere" so well.
People in general are unaware of the consequences of exposure to them.
People can be deceived massively by them.
For an outsider they seem like completely innocent people.
Because of their ability to lie and turn facts around.
I lived with a psychopath/narcissist (not sure which one he was) for a year and a half, three years ago, while I was doing my graduate degree. I lived in a constant state of stress. I experienced intimidation, manipulation and otheres and I was forced to move after he got violent. I was badly depressed up until a few months ago , when I finally decided to see a therapist. However, I still struggle to get over the stare, it's like looking the devil in the eyes.
Thank you for the video. It was a very good description of narcissists and psychopath. I do want to add personal experience I am still dealing with, my brother has antisocial personality disorder and my mother has narcissistic personality disorder,as for my father his is a flying monkey. They have and still are destroying my life. I cry so hard for hours because of the decades of pain they have caused me. I love life always enjoyed morningse and I still do. However, it isn’t so much as depression for me as it is ‘suppression ‘ from years of psychological abuse. I only started drinking now, very late in life, because the pain is unbearable. I have gone to therapist earlier this year for the first time. From every one of them I was invalidated, gaslighted and blamed. I started drink because of therapy because the pain was and still is so sever. I cry frequently because of sadness and the lose of ‘me’. I still appreciate everyday and do activities as well as starting nursing school at age 50 this August. I am suppressed by my family, therapists, and society. I cry because no one will listen or believe my story and the deep frequent pain I suffer as a result.
Lexy Emerson continue therapy with someone who helps move you forward. Persevere through your pain because you need to learn to cope with a lifetime of manipulation and begin a new life . Sending virtual hugs🤙🙂❤️
I feel you! I try to tell myself, tomorrow could be better....but im considering taking up drinking too. Its not a solution though. Its hard, not waking up feeling rested, no one to talk to. Im trying to work up the courage to pick someone, a friend to talk to, but they are all behaving oddly toward me and I don't know why. Im being accused by my own parents of being paranoid after they've been all kinds of hard core abusive for a few years straight. They keep telling me to "be logical, think rationally" and Im like "I AM, you're fucking nuts, not me!" Its like they're bad actors in a terrible drama series - I can't even believe this is happening. Its twilight zone, all the time.
Find a therapist that is well educated on these subjects and they will see it clearly for what it actually is. Believe it or not they are out there! I found a therapist that was extremely well-versed in these personality disorders. Keep at it and don’t give up on yourself.
Sheila Ja .....I understand exactly what you are saying. The abuse isolates you, the gaslighting your parents do to you makes you feel like your going nuts, and your right drinking isn’t the answer. I just started drinking march 2019, because after going to 8 different therapists (two trained in trauma) they didn’t believe me, and acted hostile towards me. I was not allowed to be upset or cry in the sessions. The pain they caused was literally the same abuse I have been dealing with in my family. Your not nuts and if you can find a way to a positive action to release the pain. I am trying to walk most days, learn a new language etc.. I only started drinking March 2019 and now I am having heart problems (could be coincidence). Health has always been important to me and I know if I continue down the drinking road I am in real deep water. So I started going to A.A. And you know what, I feel better going there and I feel healing from other people’s honest open talks about their struggles. No therapist every helped me the way AA has. Therapy is truly what drove me to drink! I am teaching myself German which has helped my mind rest from the pain but it is a work in progress. Sheila, I get what your saying!
@@lexyemerson7927 Ive been gaslit all my life in hindsight, but the last 5 years have been insane - im having a hard time getting out of the house and short term memory is terrible lately too. So I have an idea what i need to do, but literally forget after 5 seconds. I asked for an MRI hoping I can prove the brian damage I know I am suffering now. Seriously starting to wonder if this is a satanic thing, I don't need the complication of that sort of thought, but I swear to god someone is possessing people in the last 3 years at least and that alone is driving me insane. If I wasn't already, I may be there soon.
Thank God there's a new Dr. Todd Grande video to calm me down as I've just been exposed to flashbacks of traumatic events and feel very scared at the moment.
Keep Calm and Watch Dr. Grande! I've been there myself and knowing more about what happened to you and that what you're experiencing is normal always helps!
@@misse7154 Thank you ever so much for your kind words. You're right: With Dr Grande one can always keep calm.
:)
@@mirjanadolenec3099 I was thinking like those British signs from WWII that say "Keep Calm and Carry On". If you're not familiar just look up the phrase. It's so iconic. I think Dr. Grande should rethink his line of gear! ;)
Mirjana Dolenec - Being in the center lane of a ten lane freeway on the way to a patient who is going to die, then having your professional pager go off because of a narcissistic is truly anxiety provoking,
It causes depression in the people they target and in the onlookers/other staff who go along to get along so they aren't the next target.
Eliminate the person that is targeting people.
Very good description of what can happen in a place of employment. It would be good if more HR Departments would be informed on this.
Would you say narcissists themselves experience depression due to their condition
Informative. Sounds like some evening TV political/police/law dramas where the main character fits these dark bullying traits. And they are portrayed as the "cool" power driven hero.
This just popped up and I love your videos, but Im gonna have to go back to my 90's nostalgic music playlist and watch this later, Dr. Todd 😁🎶💃
Excellent video, thank you so much for your insight into this disorder.
Thank you for such a wonderful, clear breakdown of this topic! Why isn't this more widely discussed!?! Seems it would be required knowledge for running companies and organizations. I know I've worked under leaders with the dark core traits! I know I called out "sick" when I'd just had enough of the bullying. Much lost productivity that would have an effect on the financial bottom line of these employers, should make them care enough to do something with this information. It also makes me resolved to be a better type of leader :)
Great video Dr Grande.
Thanks for your answers to the question; very well thought out and presented
I really appreciate your videos, Dr. grande. I am working through a situation with my parents and I am starting to realize they are very likely to be narcissistic. I have watched so many of your videos just to try and educate myself on the subject, and they have helped me defeat some of my massive self-doubt using logic and reason. So for that I thank you. Have a wonderful day
Fascinating video!
Thank you Dr. Grande 😃
This analysis was affirming to me. Your comments about those leaders possessing traits of the dark triad with narcissism also resonates. When you explained the pattern of such "leaders" who then recruit or include other leaders from that same pool of characterstics, my big concern is the cultural acceptance and normalization of this "leadership type" and WHO reports of global increases in depression.
This sort of leadership is not countered with evidence based leadership success resulting in applied strategies using decent human motivational research results (organizational psychology). This evidence describes actual leadership strategies that provide more productive, content employee workplaces and work teams.
Since corporate work culture is infested with "bosses" who are sociopathic and narcissitc, how do we work at using these results to change who leads and manages?
SO WAY!!! Dr. Grande PSA.
I love your videos thank you for posting them! I watch all the new ones that have come out for the past several months ! My favorite videos you’ve created are about narcissism or personality disorders in general. Also your analysis of certain criminal cases with people likely to have some type of personality disorder (for example Chris watts / Jody Arias)
Question: is there ANY scientific literature regarding “empaths” as a “personality type” specifically regarding the “empath/ narcissist relationship/ drawing towards each other”? Any scientific data / research on “empaths” at all??
Thank you for this video. Like many of the commentators I suffered from a situation, more accurately, currently suffer from a situation in which a work peer of higher status (same supervisor) has caused me to be extremely depressed and further caused discord at our workplace. The worst part was enduring them manipulating people to turn against me or view me poorly including our supervisor to whom I had a good relationship with prior to events. It has taken a severe toll on my mental well being so to hear logic and reason makes worlds of difference. Again, thank you.
p.s. and thank you for the citations listed - they lead to some very interesting research of great relevance!
I relate it mostly to family settings. However what you said about two opposite leader styles was very enlighting with regards to work. It really changed my view of this subject. Thank you.
Dr. Grande thank you. One could notice the patterns as such and experience the discomfort and humiliation coming from being treated by the personalities described. A point you brought up that is true and scary is yes these management personality type consistently brings to the top more narcistic and others described to the top so the situation seems to perpetuate and unresolved. The environment gets hostile at times with the undiagnosed bullying. Yikes thats sad.😕
I want to say thank you to those that shared comments in regards to my post. It means a lot since I have had no validation in my life. I do want to dive a little into my on going situation to help some u Dre’s tans why it is not conducive for me to seek out therapy. My brother who has antisocial personality disorder(frequently in drama situations and gets away with the crimes he commits). I had to be extremely careful how I worded things to the therapists I saw because my brother is a social worker. One therapist in particular literally said she would believe a therapist over a client ( it seems to be a common believe in my experience). I even mentioned to her “if your not asking questions your making assumptions” her response exactly....”I make assumptions “. because she literally never once asked any questions in our five sessions. When I broke down in my first session I asked who would you believe a therapist or me a client? The previous therapists I only explained what I was dealing with never mentioned ‘narcissist ‘ and I still was blamed and not believed because the second a therapist finds out I am dealing with psychological abuse from my brother who is a social worker they literally refuse to help me, they don’t listen and think there is something wrong with me not him. His has been investigated by the FBI for Medicare fraud ( they wanted the bigger fish and went after his boss the owner), the military has investigated him for a soldier committing suicide, the state board of social work has investigated him, he has been fired for padding his paycheck etc. in 2016 he visited our parents and got angry so he keyed up their only nice car and bent the antenna. Then for over a month he went around telling people how awful his parents because they are blaming him for the car being keyed and he swore he didn’t do. The truth came out about two months after and he never paid for the new paint job. My whole life he has been doing smear campaigns about me that have no validity. First, as a young teenager, it was I am hyperactive ( because I enjoyed health and fitness and worked out regularly to help with my sport competition), then and still is...I am after the inheritance, then in my 30s it was I have borderline personality disorder. And for the past 18 years he has been telling people I am bipolar. I told him I was blocking his number again ( because he was harassing me. We only started talking again because my sis past away) I also told him to never contact me (November 2017) he got so angry he wrote an email to my next door neighbor (a psychologist) that I was bipolar. Per my neighbor he went into detail about his diagnosis of me and warned her to watch out because I am going to write her a letter(no clue why he said that) . My point is therapist will not help someone like me who’s life is being destroyed by a social worker who is my brother. For those who don’t realize to true deletion of my pain, he has and continues to destroy my life, when he sent that letter to my neighbor he assumed responsibility as being my therapist ( violates dual relationship and treating family) he also committed a federal crime since he is letting people know he representing himself as my therapist then by him discussing his diagnosis of me with another therapist he violates HIPAA (federal law) he also is doing slander and libel, which is defamation of my character. My brother has always had mood swings deep depression, impulsiveness, and frequently getting into trouble. I have always been the logical, compassionate and caring. Passionate about sports and health, and enthusiastic about life. So, I am no longer going to seek therapy. The reaction is always the same and when I start drinking because of the pain therapy has caused...the blaming, the invalidation, the refusing to believe me or help me, the accusations and dismissive behavior from the therapist isn’t constructive to me. I started drinking March 2019. Was not a drink prior to that( a drink once about every 3-5 years). I decided to go to AA and feel the healing and supportive atmosphere. I have said a word in the meetings or spoke of my situation just listening to other people’s story is helping to heal some of my pain. So I ask anyone to please help and suggest how do you tell a therapist your situation without them becoming defensive, dismissive, and not believing you since the abuse is from a social worker, my brother.
Dr Grande, what I said I am only referring to my experience with therapy and narcissistic abuse. I have high respect for you and apologize if any of this was offense as that is not the intent. I just want people to know suggesting going to therapy isn’t always helpful and can do more harm then good given my situation. I am not saying therapy is bad.
Very interesting great work dr Todd I think you would find it interesting if you did a video on music involving the psychological impact it has and on how it can affect ones mood but again great work
I listened for the second time and I do that with many of your videos. First, because English isn't my native language and second, because I understand the video better.
I also like to bing watch your videos when I'm for example alone in my kitchen preparing dinner for family or friends. You have learned me so much Dr. Grande and I'm very thankful to you sir.
I hope you're having a good Sunday 😃.
Greetings from Ben 🇳🇱
Yes.
Management at Enron and Lehman Brothers would be a shining example of these types. It was a few years ago, but one thing that stood out was the arrogance displayed by some Enron and Lehman Brothers executives. I also recall back in 2008 an exec from a bailed-out bank using some $80,000 of the bailout to redecorate his office! These can be very destructive people.
Aloha, I appreciated this well thought out video because it relates to the work environment. It helps to validate some of the questions I have had for a long time. I think knowledge is power. When you have an understanding of what is going on, it’s easier to deal with sometimes. Not always, since you can’t control what others do. If you are subordinate you are limited. I was in a lead position for a short time and someone who had previously helped get rid of 3 managers before me and the company lost 60 employees because of the things going on. Well this person, ( who did not even have the same license and therefore could not be in a lead position)was cunning, relentless in her quest to tear any employee apart to upper management that didn’t go along with her. It seemed all the middle managers knew she was the problem but the upper ones still believed her lies and stories. I have never seen any person this destructive in my life. It was absolutely the worst situation of my work life. It only lasted a short while as she got rid of every person hired for the leadership and administrative staff I had hired. This is real. The company used to have a good reputation, but had lost so much business and market share, but they couldn’t see it. This was also during the worst situation in my life as well since my husband had just left me after 26 years, for another person and left all responsibilities for the bills onto me and divorced me. I have had one challenge after another. These people do cause damage and tremendous pain. Identifying these people can help you avoid them as much as possible or at least be one up knowing their game. I wanted to manage because I thought I could get the branch office back to better place and create an environment that was encouraging and respectful, but in the end I didn’t have the skills to combat this person who was determined to tear others down. I certainly learned a lot!
Unlike Mathematics, where the product of two negatives is a positive (related to the fact that the inverse of the inverse of a positive number is that positive number back again), this is NOT true in this☝️☝️situation! 🤦♀️Pharmaceutical calculus is so much easier to me than understanding a Narcissist & how they affect others! 😅 I’d rather sit & do “proofs” long-hand” ALL DAY than to EVER deal with another Narcissist.
🤔There MUST be an easy quick way to identify them? If not, I am never ever🙅♀️dating again!😂🤣😂Old cat lady sounds better & better! 🌿👀🌿BUT ... ☝️Thank you for another informative video that I have a hard time following bc we speak different languages!😂👍
Dr Angelina
10/10. Thank you again. We're going to need an index for the content in your valuable videos!
You didn't mention 'stress' - a word commonly used here (UK) as shorthand (and socially acceptable word choice) for depression - especially that reactive depression the narcissist/psychopaths create in workplaces.
I had a very prestigious, high paying career for an extremely, high-net worth group of famous people. I loved the work. But my managers were bullies and I suffered from depression. After 12 years, I had the courage to resign. I just reached a tipping point, and I had enough core self-esteem to just walk away. I never regretted my decision and I am proud of myself for leaving. Today, I wonder about the mental health of other, numerous employees currently working for them. No doubt, those enmeshed employees are also in the grips of depression working for someone so high profile, putting up with it because of the prestige and their salary. Not for me. I reflect and wonder why I stayed so long. Great video. The workplace can be so toxic for people. This job was so high stress, that I still have frequent, troubling dreams. I truly think I have some PTSD from trying to please my managers and principals because of their high profile. I never truly thought about this in this way until viewing your video tonight. Now, it makes sense. I worked for and with narcissists. Yikes! For casual reading, I read the DSM-V. I should have known better. Thank you Dr. Grande!
Hi Todd, I love your work, thank you! This question just popped into my head: could a person who has suffered due to being in a relationship with someone who has NPD or BPD develop characteristics of these disorders as a result of being exposed to them? I’m not referring to ’Narcissistic abuse syndrome’, as we know it, but more like someone developing what I’ve heard called ‘narcissistic fleas’.
Yes, I absolutely feel it does!
Thanks for another great video. It does cause a lot of damage. Not sure if they're a Narcissist but I get the speak only when spoken to vibe, lack of empathy and that they want everyone to be happy with how things are. Hot and cold behavior. Definitely can cause depression over time.
Yes. It can cause burn out. It can poor work productivity.
Easy answer YES!
This is so true! I am imagining if one simply tried to show this video at one of those workplace
informal presentation get-togethers. Ha! Just showing this video might get one fired, or at least get that person "black-listed" with management. Sad, but true...
Great insight into the personalities of those who crave power and why they should never get it. Your complete explanations are so clear it is impossible not to understand them. In my experience I have seen very few pro-social team leaders. When you mention the dark traits I keep thinking of darth vader not sure why since I have never seen any Star War movies !!
I'm dealing with this situation at work. I don't think I have come across a narcissist before. I have initiated a formal grievance procedure against the narcissist and I had to go above our line manager. The complaint is for bullying and harassment against myself and others. The person has been relocated to another site and I am working from home whilst they conduct an investigation. I hope they find it serious enough to remove her permanently. If not, I will have to look for other employment as life is too short to be in such close proximity to such a toxic individual. On the depression question, I have suffered a number of bouts of deep depression since being a teenager and have been treated with fluoxetine. I have not suffered depression as a result of this person's bullying so far, but it has affected my sleep - replaying events in my head when trying to sleep and has caused me to suffer situational anxiety due to this person's aggression. I also suffer with IBS which has taken a turn for the worst since working there. It is difficult to say whether the IBS worsened as a result of my diet (attempting to cure a dysfunctional digestive system with fibre) or due to the anxiety. I am unlikely to make any recovery from the IBS and also suffer the symptom of visceral hypersensitivity which means I experience 'normal' digestion as extremely painful. Interestingly, the only medication that really targets the pain is a low level dose of nortryptyline as an off-label use. I know that other people have experienced dread at the thought of coming to work and 2 people have left as a result of this person. This costs the company in terms of recruitment and training as well as sick pay. I wonder if personality tests and psychological profiling could be used to help screen out these people in the recruitment stage? I have taken similar tests when I was in sales.
Sara Simm I understand how hard it is to deal with chronic health issues alone, not to mention dealing with toxic people at work. You are brave and I think are standing up for yourself is commendable! I pray you will feel some relief knowing you tried to resolve the issues through official channels. No matter the outcome, take heart that your inner voice is coming out. You are the victor!
I hope everything goes well for you!
You're so brave & strong, keep going & stand up for yourself! Document everything & keep a diary. There's an excellent book called The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk about links between mind & body trauma which might help you. Also Richard Grannon Spartan Lifecoach, Vital Mind Psychology & Kris Godinez UA-cam channels I found to be extremely useful (& helps you see the funny side as well). Best wishes xxx
@@Hermanus-lj9fk Thank you. I will purchase the book, the reviews are excellent. Update: they have upheld my grievance. However, they thought that I would do mediation with this woman. I told them I never want to see this woman in my life and that life is too short and it is not worth it for my health....they didn't have a plan B at that stage. So I asked how many chances does a person need and that she had a chance when she was given the job. I am awaiting to hear plan B. Not sure why I can't be working from the office though instead of from home now.
My current boss ranks reasonably high on the narcissist scale. I say scale because he is capable of a bit of empathy.
However everyone I have spoken to says that he should not be in a leadership position.
I had a very narcissistic mother so he picks up on my insecurities and sometimes deliberately bullies me based on that.
I have stood up to him on a few occasions and he looks like an injured child almost crying when I explain to him that his communication is poor.
He is also an alcoholic and he will insist on spending 10 minutes+ lecturing me on a topic when I just ask for something that can be answered quickly. While he does this I occasionally smell his foul breath and on a couple of occasions I actually wretched.
He likes to 'mentor' me however he is completely unable to mentor me as his emotional intelligence makes him incapable of listening or being sensitive to others' needs.
Thank you for another excellent video! I am not surprised at all by this, I would be more surprised if there were not any bad effects from poor leadership. I guess there's a good reason toxic people are called "toxic".
I definitely had a narcissistic manager. Of course, it was at my first job; So now, I imagine all jobs to be as horrible as my first experience. My manager was callous and highly extroverted. They also micromanaged me and it was frustrating. I even had a time where I had eaten something that caused my stomach to hurt and they said that we need you because you’re on the only one on the job until another coworker starts their shift in x amount of time. I got to go home, but I was reduced to tears because I couldn’t handle the pain and I wanted to go home so badly. I was so frustrated and outraged that someone could be so compassionless and unempathetic. Well, whatever. I got out when I did and I haven’t set foot in that establishment in a long time and I hope to keep it that way. I worked at a grocery store in case if anyone was wondering...
YES ABSOLUTELY
Zac has become my closest friend because of it ..."PRO-Zac"
My assistant was a narcissist hired by my manager who to save face refused to fire her. Dealt me s life of pure hell till after 10 long years she finally quit.
This all sounds so lamentably familiar.
I'm going to say yes because been there, done that.
YES
I've recently left a work environment lead by a psychopath only to be replaced with a narcissist, honestly I would rather work for the psycho but the biggest lesson I have learned is that people like my self can not sit back and watch, we are the ones responsible and it's honestly one if the toughrer things I've done in life. 🤷🏻♂️
Yes, Yes it does. Of course i've known this for a long time now, but i've straight up walked out of a few jobs because of narcissism. narcissistic bullying, etc, and not just part time summer jobs, but jobs i had held for one to two years.
Same. I also had to quit. Certain universities seem to be infested with these types in office manager roles. No longer working for that institution was the best move.
Shout out to ya Doc.
Does narcissism exposure cause depression?
Thats asking if Bears boop in the woods 😂
Narcissists are notorious for inflicting emotion pain and general chaos/drama. I'd go so far to say these shitgibbons are sadists.
I suppose the more clout a leader has, the more other leaders under that person conform to such principles... and the more leadership scapegoats leaders who don't conform. I wonder if some people compartmentalize such problematic traits into one area of life...but no others. Thanks...well worth the listen!
You're welcome!
just got moved from my store I maintained due to a narc manager, all the points you raise her on work place narcs define him and his actions towards myself and others which I have witnessed and historicly yet he got away with underrmining me and I get moved .this makes me question my abilitys and temprement. although I think my manager see;s me right his hands are tied as the manager is part of the customers work force. I'm now looking to change companies becasuse the stores im now to look after will put pressure on me and it feels like i am being pushed out for standing up for myself in the most basic of levels.
As an Exec Asst I've worked for many interesting characters, many Narc's/Psycpths. Of course I didn't undstd what they were at the time. Not until recently, when my 13yr marriage disintegrated (literally overnight, it seemed). I sought counselling to figure out what happened? Found out what NPD/Psycopathy/Dark Triad is. My marriage was apparently all an illusion, to make my Narc "look stable" - i.e. must be ok he's married/settled, wife/2xkids, good home, etc. I think back to work "friendships" - associations I valued so highly, they all crumbled, way back then, & I ended up bearing the brunt of any fallout at work. Now I'm fully aware, I can see clearly why I encountered "struggles" with these "driven" people. Unfrtntly depression hit me, when I realised hubby's secret double-life & exposed him, & his consequent absolute "no care" attitude twds me & kids after. Just like those executives who used me for their own advancement, most left me behind, unrewarded. Depression was bound to hit, too much to deal with at mid-life. Completely isolated & abused. Being an "Assistant" at work, is in itself asking for trouble, boundaries are always trying to be crossed by those who strive to succeed twd power thru control/ manipulation/lies. I certainly wont b returning to work as an Executive Assistant, I can't put myself thru any more of the same... Depression has lifted after 18mths separated, with help from a NPD specialist, no med's or grps. Just plain taking care of myself, eating/resting/going thru the daily kids routines/meditating/nature/reading other people's experiences/planning my own life (not thinking abt others for now). And now I have some feelings again, some joy, some laughter, slowly & surely, growing my world from so "small/squashed" to being vital again. Dr Grande, the way u describe the facts is refreshing, as u keep neutral - it helps not to build resentment/contempt twds those that hurt us. Negative thoughts/emotions aren't helpful. Only "good" can heal us from all that pain. Tku Dr Grande for speaking abt the workplace. I found a lot of trouble in the hospital system, the high-ranked nurses were the worst.
Thank you Dr Grande, so very interesting. What about people managing countries and people in any authority over the general public. Should these people not be screened to see if they have a narcissistic or other personality disorder before given such positions of policing and could these (people) be the reason as to why our system/s and society/s are failing and falling. It is about time that these problems in our society are dealt with and recognized. before it is really to late, Maybe it is these personality disordered people in authority that hold back the recognition of these disorders in general. (I think) our world/planet would be a much happier place . I think it is also very important for children to learn about these disordered people so that they may recognize and possibly expose and then maybe the disordered person/s would also know that they cannot be the way they (choose) to be in society...
How does a person convince others that people with really dark traits smile constantly? They pretend so hard to be happy- wear bright clothing, laugh, giggle constantly plan parties. All kinds of parties and restaurant events. My father would say, “Don’t worry sister, hell isn’t half full yet. That guy below will find a place for them.” That was relieving but it didn’t answer why they smile so much they almost get TMJ sitting on a bar stool.
I haven’t even seen the video yet but, it definitely causes depression!
When a person feels that they were duped by someone they love or even respect, even the feeling that you feel stupid is depressing.
I think that it’s also a problem that we can be in denial about the depression. During my time of learning about narcissism and realizing that also nothing could help the situation, that was also depressing.
If you’ve setup your life, assumptions and plans around a narcissist, without understanding the trouble you were in, that can cause depression. In my case, finding out in my 50s, when there might not be an opportunity for recovery? Yep, depression. Knowing anyone that you know doesn’t understand anything about narcissism and assigns it “0” on the scale of life’s problems and that they want you to carry on cheerfully. Yep, depression. Finding out that, with the exception of having had people in your life who want the very worst for you, that you are alone? Depression. Knowing that you have to press on because earning a living has suddenly become more important than ever? Depression. Learning that you’ll likely be disinherited, with no time to make up the difference. Depression.
For me, the only things that are not depressing about it, is knowing that, when my mother eventually passes, my mourning will be diminished and knowing that this has been identified now and provides a demarcation line for attempting to start anew. I need not wonder or worry about my family, whether they will change, whether it’s my fault, whether I should just try harder and be conflicted about all of it. Although I am still low contact with my mother, it is still a lot of an emotional clean break for me. For her, I have more pity, than empathy or sympathy. Like I’d feel for a stranger. It doesn’t mean I don’t have flashbacks and see video online of the days when I thought she was everything and feel so sorry, knowing the trials and tribulations of her life. But, there is a wall between us now. I feel depressed that she is going into the winter of her life like this but, I also know that we, each, will travel our own path.
I don't garden, I don't paint, I don't draw, and I don't bake anymore, all things I loved once. 20 years of marriage to a covert narc(just my opinion of course, no diagnosis) and I'm barely a shell of what I was when I was younger.
Garden, paint, draw and bake. Period. If you need further support, I'm here for ya 💜
When you perform those small actions, they are for you to experience. In fact, draw something meant to be sent in the ethers and immediately burn it. Not to destroy it, but to preserve the exercise within you. It is a silent protection that keeps you mindful of your effort to once again find your most precious essence.
Yes. Maybe major depression disorder, but situational depression and anxiety. Or angst like something is out of place.
narcissistic behavior is very much connected to depression no matter where it comes from. speaking for myself, it has been over my life has been the major source of depression
It has to take being 'trapped' in the same room for a while - with Narcissist, to get side effects. ( Varies per individual experience.)
Totally makes me think of Dr. Ramani's video where she says that "narcissism is the secondhand smoke of mental health"! ua-cam.com/video/K784y_gwXUo/v-deo.html
I’ve dealt with one of these in the form of a psychiatrist. One of the most vindictive, callous people I’ve ever encountered.
The sub clinical concept is interesting i.e. these characteristics are common enough. But didn’t you say that psychopathy sometimes offers very good long term strategic planning
You should do a psychoanalysis of Patrick Bateman from American Psycho
ok npd is
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
5 out of those will get you an npd diagnosis
now psychopathy is
pathological lying
glib and superficial charm
grandiose sense of self
need for stimulation
cunning and manipulative
lack of remorse or guilt
shallow emotional response
callousness and lack of empathy
parasitic lifestyle
poor behavioral controls
sexual promiscuity
early behavior problems
lack of realistic long-term goals
impulsivity
irresponsibility
failure to accept responsibility
many short-term marital relationships
juvenile delinquency
revocation of conditional release
criminal versatility
each score zero one or 2 and you need 30 to be called a psychopath
how can you compair those
if you would take the same criterea for psychopathy only need 5 traides they wouls be a hole lot less sevear
Though it is obvious there are people with PD's and other issues in the workforce to deal with, I always appreciated the jobs I had where I stayed so busy I didn't have time to look up, much less have personnel conflicts very much. Physically draining but good for the spirit. Electrical work or diecast line worked well for that in my experience. The main job where these conflicts reared their ugliest head (for me personally) was in the military. To be honest, it really stemmed from personnel have far too much time on their hands in "hurry up and wait" situations.
@J R Kept boundaries with abusive types and thankfully there really weren't too many in the workforce. I was a bully target in junior high and until about the 11th grade. When I stood up to many of them which were seniors. Things were ok after that. I believe all the shyness and confusion up that time was from emotions changing in puberty and having swing emotions after a head concussion after being thrown from a horse. I knew what being bullied at every turn was. I became a person you could not hardly interact with as we all know it takes two people to "tango". My first few jobs in high school were a little better. I was not so much of a target. People at those jobs knew me and some went to school, but they did not bother me. There was some pranking at my expense, but now out of school setting I was obilged to prank them back. When you are underestimated it is easy. They had so many others they would prank that they couldn't exactly guess who did it. Nothing bad .. filling their lunch bag full of shaving cream or misplacing their tape measure. I got out of highschool and went to really busying work in diecast production the only problem I had was keeping my energy reigned in. Our foreman would grumble when my machine partner and I put out too much production because he did not want the manager to start expecting that level from the other two shifts. Even in the military, I never had serious conflicts at work. You did see a lot of "power tripping" around you, but as long as you did your job it wasn't too bad. I married quite the basket case with BPD and other issues simply because I focused more on work rather the person I was getting together with rather focusing on healthy boundaries as I had with worker environment. You are right about not liking gossipers though, and generally not a smaller talker with people often enough.
what pcl-r score do you use to identify psychopathy in that studie?
Sorry for all the typos and mixed up grammer
Do you know of any research that has found certain personality types become politicians?
Politicians are leaders, but probably not the same way as a business leader. One thinks they must be extraverted for example but sometimes I think not. Watching the debates, some of them seemed like introverts with a persona in place.
This happened to me. How do you overcome it? I"m in therapy but it's CBT so they just say its to do with the way I think :(
For sure doctor.
Keep going
i'd love to hear your stance on hg tudor's description of narcissism/psychopathy
GREAT SUBJECT MATTER! I WISH YOU COULD COME TO MY COMPANY AND DISCUSS THIS TOPIC THERE!
I used to be friends with a person who had all the narcissistic traits minus the attention seeking. Would this person still be considered a narcissist? Maybe the "vulnerable" type?
How to differentiate sigma with narcissists..is people wrong to think that people who abused us should also suffer?
Yes it does
Yes they do. They suck the life force right out of healthy, grounded people. Once you get rid of the vampires, your life force returns a youre back to being a happy camper.
Management by intimacy.
Yesyesyesyesyes
I worked for 2 BMW dealerships in the 90s. The first one was fast paced but the people, for the most part, were easy to communicate with. I was laid off because of the economy at the time. My boss actually found me another job at the 2nd dealership. I saw primadonna mechanics throw literal temper tantrums jumping up and down while screaming and throwing tools. It wasn't just one and they were not kidding around (some mechanics have good humor). My superior used to come from behind and grab our nipples and squeeze hard then call us "piglets." It wasn't a joke either.
The head of the dept was talking to my superior once and said "I have to go to a deposition because we are being sued for racial discrimination. Those F***ing Mexicans aren't being discriminated against!" There wasn't a hint of humor in his voice. And I was standing 2 feet away and am part Mexican.
I wound up getting fired when a mechanic began talking to me while I was on the phone with a customer. I asked him to hold on (pollitely) and he went straight to the dept. head and I was gone. I felt terrible and thought I was a failure. It really was the best thing for me.
Whats amazing to me is that this was in one of the wealthiest areas in Southern California. Many of the people working there didn't seem to respect anyone or themselves yet the place looked immaculate. For the 5 months I worked there I never saw the dept. head smile, ever. IN fact, smiling was very rare by anyone, except for when the head of the entire dealership was around and even then my dept head didn't smile.
Who knew car dealerships might have bad Karma? : D
At 3:20 it is SOCIOpathy and NOT "psychopathy". Psychopath(y)/psychopathology in clinical practice is a general term referring to all disorders and is not a DSM diagnosis. If you are qualified you should know that psychopath was at one point contained in models/discussions about "the dark trad" but now it is no longer correct to use the term in clinical practice about individuals.
That have been always my opinion but nobody believed me thank you doctor because they the mangers of any facility all trully sick