I had a similar experience after my donkey Kong only did 30% to meta knight in brawl over two matches. Never went again I was in middle school and this stupid grown man was going full try hard
Coney about smash 4 bayo: What do you mean that was a bad airdodge, he was at 34?!?!? Coney about brawl meta knight: That was your fault for jumping, that was a scrub jump. Coney is a king 🤴
The Coney Bias is genuinely so funny We see ZSS ladder and says "yeah you could hit an up air at any point and get a kill", but then he celebrates chain grabbing to death in Brawl
I feel like everyone is more or less bias to the smash they had in like high school or just spent the most time with Also coney is very likely baiting up his content there
"If it's toxic, it's sick-until I have to deal with it myself, then it's a problem." This is the mindset of literally every member of the Smash community.
When sm4sh came out I thought to myself "finally an online smash that will receive balance patches, never again will we have a truly overpowered character to ruin the meta"
And people back then people had a trauma with meta knight and melee There were so many people that were 24/7 online arguing and trash talking in a very unhealthy level like just like cooney said. People were screaming for patches "Nerf this buff that omg that is so broken ban this change that" and we had people freaking out with some random "op zero to death combo video" that would only work if the opponent had the controller unplugged. And just like this guy said mac caused nightmares in casual/low level play and people thought he was op so by popular demand k.o punch got toned down something similar happened at ultimates release with people complaining at k rool, isabelle, belmonts, ganondorf,chrom and for some reason dedede People were so traumatized because of the balance of these games.
@@peluquin98 that makes me very happy and proud to be a casual smasher, didn’t had to suffer the hell that meant to care so much for the balance of the game, doesn’t mean I don’t care, but in comparison, maybe just like a 10% of what the competitive scene cared
I'm not in the smash community but my first thought was "don't you guys let people counterpick between matches anyway?" smh I could have saved all you Mii mains
8:25 For the record *I* made that argument all the damn time! It wouldn't have mattered if people brought it up back then, a good argument never matters in this community. It would've been dismissed just as readily as they dismiss any sound argument.
I have a hot take as a Sm4sh player: Sm4sh was a great competitive game before Cloud came out. The last three DLC characters fucking ruined Sm4sh competitive. However, the cast of mid, high and lower top tiers were super deep and had rich gameplay that was super interesting to watch and play. It's just that everyone remembers Cloud and Bayo because they came out at the end of the game's life. Then again Rosalina fucking existed, so what do I know.
Bayo only really became bad in 2018, even then there was one bayo main who was really winning, given more time there would have developed more counter play. Bayo was still annoying, but ult got announced at the time when the bayo hate was basically at its highest
Nah, I agree, I think the meta had time to develop into something truly interesting before DLCpocalypse, like reaction tech chasing was a legit thing that could turn some MUs on their head.
A lot of top tiers in smash 4 had even or lightly losing matchups vs bayo iirc. MK just literally shit on everyone except characters that could chain grab him, and even then the MK could outplay them with air camping
Bayo was banned from 4 before she even won a major. Metaknight was allowed to sit for YEARS and never was formally banned from all tournaments. Bayo didn't kill the game, the reaction to her did.
@@cesarTorres-lj1df She wasn't banned at EVO at the time. She was, however, banned in an entire country and most locals by then. It's also worth mentioning the top player at the time VERY CONVENIENTLY had a thumb injury that lasted until exactly when blanket Bayo bans started. Bans rarely hit everything at once thoigh, and EVO is gonna tend to be slower to ban something than others due to wanting to get every possible player in the pool. Other major tourneys were banning Bayo before Salem even got to win a major though.
I love listening to Coney talk about Brawl/Smash4 meta/history. It's the perfect blend of entertaining and informative. Also I have to say that saying Bayo > Brawl MK is definitely recency bias, and my guess for who the Ganon player was is either Opana or Ray Kalm.
Coney going over old tournament stories and how he witnessed smash history in the making was genuinely super interesting. I would love to watch him watch all the heeew videos
10:35 Having a character itself is pretty rare, but it’s definitely happened. Main reason I see is because they have very simple playstyles to adapt and were busted with it. UMVC3 Dark Phoenix and Tekken 7 Leroy/Release-Akuma I remember were about as hated as Bayo in their communities. I think Leroy especially was hated because one EVO he took like 5 or 6 of Top 8. More often it’s more players being community villains like Leffen and Hbox for periods in Melee. Umvc3 had Filipino Champ and ChrisG as their villains.
Ive played my share of Marvel and was there for Leroy and Akuma. The reason Leroy was so hated was because he was super simple and had everything you could ask for. There were 7 Leroy's in top 8 of EVO Japan which is nuts. Meanwhile, Bayo only had 3 top 8s at Evo 2018. Not to mention Leroy was intentionally made OP by the developers to make people buy him.
10:25 Nah, the you're a "bad person for picking X character" absolutely exists in the FGC. It's more prevalent in the lower/casual level though. But I get where you are coming from though.
Don't forget that at the end of Smash 4's lifespan, Diddy Kong was actually considered #2. I genuinely think that if the game had lived, Cloud might have actually fallen to like 5th place. Mario's ladder combos were getting better, and people were figuring out how to play the matchup vs Cloud before Bayo came out and everyone started focusing on her.
Sonic also destroyed half the cast and arguably only lost a couple matchups (his worst ones weren't that bad, 1 to 5 slight losses depending on who you asked). An argument for like, every character up to Sonic on the tier list over Cloud could've easily been made imo. Sadly the meta stagnated around when Ult was announced because everyone wanted to say goodbye to Bayonetta and hello to a new beginning. I actually think Smash 4 was a good game despite Bayo - from a spectator POV she ruined top 8s, but at levels lower she didn't really dominate harder than some other top tiers did, and most top tiers could challenge her. The game was certainly a balance patch away from being great.
A good addendum to 23:00 is that, because so many weird stages needed to be banned because of MK, this caused Ice Climbers to quickly rise up to a top tier, due to having no more crazy counterpicks to stop them.
The character choice = personal morality anomaly is definitely a thing in other fighting games. If the community hates a character enough they'll hate the people who play them
As a Smash 4 Babby, this is such a fun walk down jank memory lane. And Miis were only the kiddy pool side of the insane dimension that was custom move sets. There are people who will never experience stuff like Kong Cyclone, Vaccum Aura Sphere, and the actual camper Villager build with Trip Sapling and Danger Flight.
Meta Knight's domination is due to most characters in the game being trash while he had no downsides, whereas Bayonetta was just OP but the other characters weren't necessarily bad. I think in the contexts of their games, Meta Knight was a better character and more dominant, but if Brawl MK and Sm4sh Bayo were to fight 1v1 with their own games mechanics, Bayo would win.
No that’s not true there is a good amount of top tiers in brawl. Ice climbers, Diddy, Olimar, Snake, Marth, ZSS, Falco. That’s about as much top tiers as there are in melee. ZSS won the biggest brawl tourney ever. Then there were mid tier heroes that reached pretty high like DKwill, Chudat Kirby, and Coney DDD 😉
@@weegeearmy1391 No yeah in retrospect I wouldn't agree with what I posted. It's mostly that the top tiers were trash in comparison to specifically Meta Knight because they didn't have tools to counter his tools, while he also had tools that countered theirs making their game plans very focused and narrow in the match up.
I will never forget Losers Semis at Genesis 5, when Nairo played against mistake. It was Game 5 last stock. Mistake had about 90% and Nairo a completely fresh stock. It took one Neutral B from Nairo to get 0-to-death'd and he died off the top at 40%. That's where I actually quit watching Smash 4 tournaments Edit: need to correct myself, Nairo missed a nair and died at 24%
Brawl meta dittos are fun to watch as both players have broken moves to respond to every situation. Bayo dittos in 4 just sit there holding neutral b until they are told to stop. Then just 0-death each other off the weakest hits. A lot less fun to watch.
Some smash compilation channels have been showing rare sets of smash 4 triples, as in 3v3, with the custom items on. With news of the Wii U eshop closing down, I think the community should get together and do an entire smash 4 custom triples tournament just to see the hilarity ensue.
Mii players should’ve just chosen their move-set when entering a tournament and be forced to use the same moveset all the way through, that way they aren’t countering but they can still use their own preferred moveset.
My very first tournament ever was brawl. I was about 9 and I went toon link and got double 3 stocked by meta knight. That single experience changed me. I was only a casual player at the time and it showed me what competitive smash was. I was so shocked and upset when I found out that "Pirate Ship" isn't a legal stage.
I like Smash 4 because nobody in my friend group cared about Bayonetta nor Cloud, so we just had fun with other characters. I think it's the only way to like the game
I feel like the reason MK got more top placements than bayo did at their games' peaks is because MK benefitted way more from his game's mechanics (e.g. having infinite recovery tools to avoid tripping, having a frame 2 up air in a game with no combos)
there’s also the fact that Bayo got nerfed twice (and it wasn’t enough) Brawl MK had no way to get nerfed, and bc Brawl barely had characters that could even come close to be an even MU for MK, he remained far more dominating than Sm4sh Bayo, Pre-patch Bayo could have become a true MK 2.0, which she still was even after the nerfs, but in her pre-nerf state, debate against it would have been foolish
no idea why there's so much hate for smash 4. Cloud is so damn fun in that game, and it's excellent to play casually. Tournament scene at top level play is also very fun, especially when you're watching someone like M2k, mkleo, or zero duke it out. Smash 4 has something VERY important that I think a lot of people forget was actually in the game: landing lag. The importance of this single mechanic can't be overstated: without it, the game turns into nickelodeon all stars brawl, or it turns into smash ultimate, where the optimal strategy is almost always "short hop aerial", because there's very little landing lag to deal with on any moves. In Smash 4, because shields were quite strong, you couldn't just spam moves all the time, and it was even harder to spam moves in general because there was substantial landing lag for all moves in the game, which was punishable. I MUCH prefer this style of play compared to ultimate, where most of the time, mashing is the optimal strategy in casual play. Subjectively, I like the idea of perfect shielding much more than I like the idea of parrying, both because it's more intuitive, and it's LESS like other fighting games(and since fighting games are generally balanced like straight garbage with a meta that relies on wobbling, this is a good thing).
I loved Smash 4 and agree with everything you said. I hate the way Ultimate changed a lot of mechanics that impact the game at a fundamental level - Parrying instead of perfect shield, not being able to move through opponents, the huge reduction on landing lag, the nerfs to grab on top of that, short hop aerial buffer, moves like jab grounding opponents resulting in practically 0 mix or combos from them, less movement options with the changes to initial dash... Balloon knockback?????? Like why. Even the airdodge changes I'm not a fan of - I won't say Smash 4's were better but I'd much rather go for 50/50s than deal with lagless fastfall airdodges. So many characters were fun to watch and play even at lower levels. In Ultimate it feels like they neutered a lot of the Smash 4 characters. Some of them like Mario, Sonic, Falco are still good or better but they lost so many setups and combos in exchange for more linear gameplans while having to deal with Ult's shittier mechanics. It's sad...
our scene in smash 4 allowed you to "register" your mii moveset. You filled out a card with the moveset and you were stuck with that moveset for the tourney
10:34 Nah, this is a thing in all fighting games. There's always a cheap character. So, when that one friend picks it we call their morality into question. They did it on purpose. We feel the malicious intent. And if we win? We rub that in their face!
@@genesisosuna Looks like we got to introduce you to Gon in Tekken 3. He's literally too short to fight unless you are crouching or also Gon. Also he has a fireball and...I'm not sure if anyone else had a ranged attack in 3. XD
5:31 I had a dream once that The Hulk was in Melee. He had all of Donkey Kong's moves and for a few seconds when I awoke I wondered if he actually was in the game.
Fuck day 1 Mac. A friend of mine would ALWAYS set lower launch rate and played Mac whenever I played him in Smash 4. Then I 1v1'd him and destroyed him in Mac mirrors at our first tourney. Love him for teaching me all I need for that mirror match. XD
Not a competitive player but Sm4sh got me really into the series, I remember being in eighth grade and deciding that Smash on 3DS was the hypest shit ever and that I would do whatever it took to earn a copy. This involved cleaning out a crappy shed full of spiders and mildew. Kinda bad game in hindsight but I have a lot of fond memories with it
God I love smash 4 so much. I wish we got 1 more patch to just nerf bayo and make a few of the bottom tiers better. someone needs to make a PM style mod to bring life back into that game because it was just so fun
@@2breborn247 does anyone know how to fix the wii u blinking the red light and turning off after you turn it on? I tried to play smash but my wii u stopped
You could actually transfer character builds from 3DS to Wii U. It’s way easier to unlock every custom on 3DS and bring the characters over than to try unlocking them all on Wii U.
I think the idea of Mii Brawler in Smash 4 is you change your movesets before matchup just as you can change a Mii to be anything and adapt it how you like. Cool how the moveset and mechanics of the character can change adaptively just as a Mii can
The first smash game I really played to a "competitive" level was Smash 4. I loved it at first but after Cloud and Bayo I ended up hating it (especially because of Bayo) to the point that I actually switched to Rivals of Aether, a game I really love even today and it's still technically my one true platform fighter despite its flaws.
13:35 this is the first time in history I've ever heard people call pokemon trainer cringe like yeah I've heard all the shit about ivy (arguably the worst of the 3) but like this hits weird its like what are you complaining about
As someone who played sm4sh but not competitively I find bayo very funny because NOBODY liked her but I'm glad ultimate doesn't have a character like her now I take it more seriously
@@imaforceanature7297 pythra is very good, but there are plenty of characters that can counter her. bayo is like if pythra had a zero to death combo where you die at 20%, regardless of which character you are, off of one mistake. Besides that, bayo is flat as hell, while pythra is the only character in ultimate with jiggle physics so... pretty sure we all know which character is worse.
THE DIFFERENCE IS: counter picking characters you know what to expect. But mii fighters counter picking changing moves, the same character visually is fundamentally different and its harder to keep up with 9+ potential different moves vs 3
I have my own story! It’s short. During the days of Sm4sh, my friend always kicked my ass cause he was better than me, and I was always angry about it because I couldn’t beat him… THEN CLOUD CAME OUT. My friend didn’t get him for reasons I forgot, but I did. I began to kick his ass, thinking I was hot shit because I had no idea Cloud was THAT busted. Looking back now, we were all trash. Nowadays, in Ultimate, I’m at least good enough to make upsets at a local with Pac-Man. I made it to top 32. Oh, as for my friend? He couldn’t keep up with Ultimate, I was better than him from the start, especially since we both played it starting on launch month (it was a Christmas gift from my parents, alongside my Switch, which was brand new at the time). I always mowed the lawn with him because I was just… Better.
I wish I was in chat for this one, I think Brawl Meta Knight was stronger in the sense that there was no other character even close to that level. I think Bayo was the overall stronger character because even with a character that was closer in power level as her (Cloud) she still dominated.
This man really gets mad at someone losing the game for a bad airdodge against bayi and laugh at the same situation when a falco does a bad jump against meta knight
Man imagine a dlc character with the ability to kill you at 30 from an inescapable combo Imagine if said character could do that and also be invulnerable in alot of there moves that would be wild
not advocating one way or the other, but the difference between changing characters for a matchup vs changing a miis moveset is that the mii still has the same normal moves, move speed, weight etc while having to pick a second character requires you to learn those things for the second character. That means that while other players have to learn entire new playstyles and mechanics, mii players would only need to adjust a few of their moves.
Compare 11:34 to 17:04 Bad airdodge means you’re dead at 7%? Unforgivable. I lost years of my life commentating this character. Bad jump means you’re dead at 20%? How about you be better next time
11:23 Question: Do peeps even consider Lima an EVO champ given how much a weird a--hole he is (to get banned from Texas locals for two months one time recently), what he did in EVO 2018 GFs with [Reducted] and just actually being carried by this character (like what happened in this timestamp here). This guy really isn't an EVO champ to me lol. No offense to his fans, i guess.
As a proud bayo main in the smash 4 trenches, this character was not only ungodly powerful, but I’d argue she was one of the most *fun* characters in the series. By the end of the game I only played bayo bc that was the only char I had fun with in the game
@@ClockWorksb Once Brawl was dying I said fuck it, lab icies for 2 days and went to a local. It was fun until I lost losers finals to a MK that camp me out
That shot of all 4 meta knights using tornado is the single funniest thing to come out of competitive smash.
@@thekingofvithen1893 “meta knight da bess” vinyl cover
The true meta knight counter
Meta knight
Does anyone have a link to that video? Can't find it anywhere.
@@yeahtoast7576 ua-cam.com/video/XBsyxX20538/v-deo.html
It reminds me of the ultimate clip of a game and watch doing down air and 3 different dudes super far down all shielding
Threw one pikmin at a bayo at roundstart and died from a witch time combo and never went to a smash 4 tournament again
LMFAO
Olimar: throws a single Pikmin
Bayonetta: *get dumpstered*
Never played smash 4 but I believe you
I had a similar experience after my donkey Kong only did 30% to meta knight in brawl over two matches. Never went again I was in middle school and this stupid grown man was going full try hard
Fair lmao
“First of all, don’t listen to ESAM. But second of all, he’s right.”
Lmao
tbf thats how you approach ESAM opinions XD
Except for the fact that if you banned MK, you'd have to ban ICs too because MK was the only character stopping them from being busted.
Go boxing ring instead
@@randumo24good
Coney about smash 4 bayo: What do you mean that was a bad airdodge, he was at 34?!?!?
Coney about brawl meta knight: That was your fault for jumping, that was a scrub jump.
Coney is a king 🤴
He's TOTALLY not biased 🗿
The Coney Bias is genuinely so funny
We see ZSS ladder and says "yeah you could hit an up air at any point and get a kill", but then he celebrates chain grabbing to death in Brawl
I feel like everyone is more or less bias to the smash they had in like high school or just spent the most time with
Also coney is very likely baiting up his content there
Scrub double jump is universal. That's good advice to point out a bad habit. Bayonetta, however, simply won the 50/50.
The funny thing about this is that bayo actually had even matchups. Metaknights only even matchup was himself lol
"That was a shitty airdodge" has "Just SDI" energy
I mean it _was_ a pretty bad airdodge
@@badatmathhh yeah, but what else was he supposed to do there? He was screwed either way pretty much.
@@badatmathhh is a 50/50, you airdodge or you jump, either case, bayo can cover both, so you have to pick an option and bayo has to guess
@@JerryMcB3rry just SDI /s
@@badatmathhh have you tried sdi'ing Bayo in Smash 4? It don't work that great lemme tell ya.
Coney: Bayo is the dumbest character to ever be put in smash >:(
Also Coney: YEAH CHAINGRABBING YEAH THAT’S THE STUFF
"If it's toxic, it's sick-until I have to deal with it myself, then it's a problem."
This is the mindset of literally every member of the Smash community.
chain grabbing in melee is cool but in brawl it was fucked up
@@Hugo_Prolovski if it was so cool, why ICs 0-death grab was banned in melee?
@@Sharkofspace sums up plenty of competitive communities
@@wolfdragox5563 it wasnt a chain grab. all chaingrabs are legal
When sm4sh came out I thought to myself "finally an online smash that will receive balance patches, never again will we have a truly overpowered character to ruin the meta"
Not my precious meta!
And people back then people had a trauma with meta knight and melee
There were so many people that were 24/7 online arguing and trash talking in a very unhealthy level like just like cooney said.
People were screaming for patches
"Nerf this buff that omg that is so broken ban this change that" and we had people freaking out with some random "op zero to death combo video" that would only work if the opponent had the controller unplugged.
And just like this guy said mac caused nightmares in casual/low level play and people thought he was op so by popular demand k.o punch got toned down
something similar happened at ultimates release with people complaining at k rool, isabelle, belmonts, ganondorf,chrom and for some reason dedede
People were so traumatized because of the balance of these games.
@@peluquin98 that makes me very happy and proud to be a casual smasher, didn’t had to suffer the hell that meant to care so much for the balance of the game, doesn’t mean I don’t care, but in comparison, maybe just like a 10% of what the competitive scene cared
At least ultimate fulfilled that dream
@@ShibuNub3305 It's online is arguably worse than smash 4's but everything else yeah.
8:21 That moment when someone makes a great point about Miis around 8 years too late lmao.
That is out-of-this-world infuriating because how could no one have thought of that at that point in time?
I'm not in the smash community but my first thought was "don't you guys let people counterpick between matches anyway?"
smh I could have saved all you Mii mains
literally nobody wanted to add 243 new characters to the game, even if most of them sucked.
coney with bayonetta: "it was just an airdodge at 36% That shouldn't be allowed"
coney with metaknight: "aht...scrub jump...your fault" (at 20%)
He's so right though. Scrub jump is what separates the good from bad players in pretty much every smash
scrub jump isn't exclusive to meta knight though
I love how coney treats his audience like they're all 12
He probably thinks we're all 12
we are all 12
he's not wrong since twitch chat acts like children trying too hard to be funny
good, they deserve it
I'm 1 year younger than him
8:25
For the record *I* made that argument all the damn time! It wouldn't have mattered if people brought it up back then, a good argument never matters in this community. It would've been dismissed just as readily as they dismiss any sound argument.
I have a hot take as a Sm4sh player: Sm4sh was a great competitive game before Cloud came out. The last three DLC characters fucking ruined Sm4sh competitive. However, the cast of mid, high and lower top tiers were super deep and had rich gameplay that was super interesting to watch and play. It's just that everyone remembers Cloud and Bayo because they came out at the end of the game's life.
Then again Rosalina fucking existed, so what do I know.
Bayo only really became bad in 2018, even then there was one bayo main who was really winning, given more time there would have developed more counter play.
Bayo was still annoying, but ult got announced at the time when the bayo hate was basically at its highest
@@DumbIdeaPresentedStupidly Bayo became bad when Smash Ultimate came out lmao.
Corrin and Ryu included?
Nah, I agree, I think the meta had time to develop into something truly interesting before DLCpocalypse, like reaction tech chasing was a legit thing that could turn some MUs on their head.
My current thoughts on MK v. Bayo are that MK was stronger AND less fun BUT Bayo was more unfair. She killed her game more.
MK was just broken so bad people accepted it. Bayo was just enough to where you could possibly win before you got it yoinked away.
A lot of top tiers in smash 4 had even or lightly losing matchups vs bayo iirc. MK just literally shit on everyone except characters that could chain grab him, and even then the MK could outplay them with air camping
Bayo was banned from 4 before she even won a major. Metaknight was allowed to sit for YEARS and never was formally banned from all tournaments. Bayo didn't kill the game, the reaction to her did.
@@DairunCates when this happened? Bayo even won an EVO, so indont know what game you are talking about
@@cesarTorres-lj1df She wasn't banned at EVO at the time. She was, however, banned in an entire country and most locals by then. It's also worth mentioning the top player at the time VERY CONVENIENTLY had a thumb injury that lasted until exactly when blanket Bayo bans started.
Bans rarely hit everything at once thoigh, and EVO is gonna tend to be slower to ban something than others due to wanting to get every possible player in the pool.
Other major tourneys were banning Bayo before Salem even got to win a major though.
“Brawl was kinda f-cked up but I love it, it was truly magic”
Sums up my feelings towards Brawl very well
I love listening to Coney talk about Brawl/Smash4 meta/history. It's the perfect blend of entertaining and informative.
Also I have to say that saying Bayo > Brawl MK is definitely recency bias, and my guess for who the Ganon player was is either Opana or Ray Kalm.
Coney going over old tournament stories and how he witnessed smash history in the making was genuinely super interesting. I would love to watch him watch all the heeew videos
The camera switch when coney is acting out 2 people is so funny to me for no reason
22:49
That was the most "Well yes, but actually no" moment I have ever heard in my life.
10:35
Having a character itself is pretty rare, but it’s definitely happened. Main reason I see is because they have very simple playstyles to adapt and were busted with it. UMVC3 Dark Phoenix and Tekken 7 Leroy/Release-Akuma I remember were about as hated as Bayo in their communities. I think Leroy especially was hated because one EVO he took like 5 or 6 of Top 8.
More often it’s more players being community villains like Leffen and Hbox for periods in Melee. Umvc3 had Filipino Champ and ChrisG as their villains.
Ive played my share of Marvel and was there for Leroy and Akuma.
The reason Leroy was so hated was because he was super simple and had everything you could ask for.
There were 7 Leroy's in top 8 of EVO Japan which is nuts. Meanwhile, Bayo only had 3 top 8s at Evo 2018.
Not to mention Leroy was intentionally made OP by the developers to make people buy him.
10:25
Nah, the you're a "bad person for picking X character" absolutely exists in the FGC. It's more prevalent in the lower/casual level though. But I get where you are coming from though.
Don't forget that at the end of Smash 4's lifespan, Diddy Kong was actually considered #2. I genuinely think that if the game had lived, Cloud might have actually fallen to like 5th place. Mario's ladder combos were getting better, and people were figuring out how to play the matchup vs Cloud before Bayo came out and everyone started focusing on her.
HOO. HAH. HOO. HAH.
Sonic also destroyed half the cast and arguably only lost a couple matchups (his worst ones weren't that bad, 1 to 5 slight losses depending on who you asked). An argument for like, every character up to Sonic on the tier list over Cloud could've easily been made imo.
Sadly the meta stagnated around when Ult was announced because everyone wanted to say goodbye to Bayonetta and hello to a new beginning. I actually think Smash 4 was a good game despite Bayo - from a spectator POV she ruined top 8s, but at levels lower she didn't really dominate harder than some other top tiers did, and most top tiers could challenge her. The game was certainly a balance patch away from being great.
cloud is overrated. Not even that good compared to mario
A good addendum to 23:00 is that, because so many weird stages needed to be banned because of MK, this caused Ice Climbers to quickly rise up to a top tier, due to having no more crazy counterpicks to stop them.
The character choice = personal morality anomaly is definitely a thing in other fighting games. If the community hates a character enough they'll hate the people who play them
I think what really made Bayo ruin the game in the end was the refusal by TO's to ban the character despite the evidence of go DLC or die.
As a Smash 4 Babby, this is such a fun walk down jank memory lane. And Miis were only the kiddy pool side of the insane dimension that was custom move sets. There are people who will never experience stuff like Kong Cyclone, Vaccum Aura Sphere, and the actual camper Villager build with Trip Sapling and Danger Flight.
And sheik needles that instantly broke shield
Meta Knight's domination is due to most characters in the game being trash while he had no downsides, whereas Bayonetta was just OP but the other characters weren't necessarily bad. I think in the contexts of their games, Meta Knight was a better character and more dominant, but if Brawl MK and Sm4sh Bayo were to fight 1v1 with their own games mechanics, Bayo would win.
Meta Knight's air dominance even counteracts tripping as well because he never has to stay on the ground
@Angelic II don't know why you're so aggressively mean but alright,, go off king.
@Angelic Sorry for Necroing this post but wouldn't Bayo not combo due to there not being hitstun in Brawl?
No that’s not true there is a good amount of top tiers in brawl. Ice climbers, Diddy, Olimar, Snake, Marth, ZSS, Falco. That’s about as much top tiers as there are in melee. ZSS won the biggest brawl tourney ever. Then there were mid tier heroes that reached pretty high like DKwill, Chudat Kirby, and Coney DDD 😉
@@weegeearmy1391 No yeah in retrospect I wouldn't agree with what I posted. It's mostly that the top tiers were trash in comparison to specifically Meta Knight because they didn't have tools to counter his tools, while he also had tools that countered theirs making their game plans very focused and narrow in the match up.
I will never forget Losers Semis at Genesis 5, when Nairo played against mistake.
It was Game 5 last stock. Mistake had about 90% and Nairo a completely fresh stock. It took one Neutral B from Nairo to get 0-to-death'd and he died off the top at 40%.
That's where I actually quit watching Smash 4 tournaments
Edit: need to correct myself, Nairo missed a nair and died at 24%
Brawl meta dittos are fun to watch as both players have broken moves to respond to every situation. Bayo dittos in 4 just sit there holding neutral b until they are told to stop. Then just 0-death each other off the weakest hits. A lot less fun to watch.
Some smash compilation channels have been showing rare sets of smash 4 triples, as in 3v3, with the custom items on. With news of the Wii U eshop closing down, I think the community should get together and do an entire smash 4 custom triples tournament just to see the hilarity ensue.
Triples we’re goofy and fun. I was sad when locals stopped doing them.
4v4 matches were the sickest things of all time and i wish they were more prevalent
I LOVED THOSE
3v3 and 4v4 should be a thing.
Coney bringing up Gnes reminded me that there's prolly people in the smash community now who haven't heard Metaknight da bess
Mii players should’ve just chosen their move-set when entering a tournament and be forced to use the same moveset all the way through, that way they aren’t countering but they can still use their own preferred moveset.
They really said "Brawler can kill you at 20 (lol) so we can't run Gun or Sword"
that's what a majority of Mii players were suggesting/enforcing tho
Some places have a rule where, if you are going to play Miis, you have to make them before the set. IMO that’s a decent balancing.
sounds like a logistics nightmare
Like a chatter said: literally what is the difference between changing Mii's moveset and counterpicking a charcter?
My very first tournament ever was brawl. I was about 9 and I went toon link and got double 3 stocked by meta knight. That single experience changed me. I was only a casual player at the time and it showed me what competitive smash was. I was so shocked and upset when I found out that "Pirate Ship" isn't a legal stage.
I like Smash 4 because nobody in my friend group cared about Bayonetta nor Cloud, so we just had fun with other characters. I think it's the only way to like the game
I had friends who really liked Cloud in casuals it can still be fun
I wonder if when the eShop goes down on the Wii U and 3DS, those who didn’t get the Smash 4 DLC lose Cloud and Bayonetta forever
Coney was on the fucking money with Cloud. That was the most pick up and win your local matches character. He was the bane on my smash 4 days LOL
I feel like the reason MK got more top placements than bayo did at their games' peaks is because MK benefitted way more from his game's mechanics (e.g. having infinite recovery tools to avoid tripping, having a frame 2 up air in a game with no combos)
there’s also the fact that Bayo got nerfed twice (and it wasn’t enough)
Brawl MK had no way to get nerfed, and bc Brawl barely had characters that could even come close to be an even MU for MK, he remained far more dominating than Sm4sh Bayo, Pre-patch Bayo could have become a true MK 2.0, which she still was even after the nerfs, but in her pre-nerf state, debate against it would have been foolish
no idea why there's so much hate for smash 4. Cloud is so damn fun in that game, and it's excellent to play casually. Tournament scene at top level play is also very fun, especially when you're watching someone like M2k, mkleo, or zero duke it out.
Smash 4 has something VERY important that I think a lot of people forget was actually in the game: landing lag. The importance of this single mechanic can't be overstated: without it, the game turns into nickelodeon all stars brawl, or it turns into smash ultimate, where the optimal strategy is almost always "short hop aerial", because there's very little landing lag to deal with on any moves.
In Smash 4, because shields were quite strong, you couldn't just spam moves all the time, and it was even harder to spam moves in general because there was substantial landing lag for all moves in the game, which was punishable. I MUCH prefer this style of play compared to ultimate, where most of the time, mashing is the optimal strategy in casual play.
Subjectively, I like the idea of perfect shielding much more than I like the idea of parrying, both because it's more intuitive, and it's LESS like other fighting games(and since fighting games are generally balanced like straight garbage with a meta that relies on wobbling, this is a good thing).
FINALLY SOMEONE I CAN AGREE WITH
I loved Smash 4 and agree with everything you said.
I hate the way Ultimate changed a lot of mechanics that impact the game at a fundamental level - Parrying instead of perfect shield, not being able to move through opponents, the huge reduction on landing lag, the nerfs to grab on top of that, short hop aerial buffer, moves like jab grounding opponents resulting in practically 0 mix or combos from them, less movement options with the changes to initial dash... Balloon knockback?????? Like why. Even the airdodge changes I'm not a fan of - I won't say Smash 4's were better but I'd much rather go for 50/50s than deal with lagless fastfall airdodges.
So many characters were fun to watch and play even at lower levels. In Ultimate it feels like they neutered a lot of the Smash 4 characters. Some of them like Mario, Sonic, Falco are still good or better but they lost so many setups and combos in exchange for more linear gameplans while having to deal with Ult's shittier mechanics. It's sad...
our scene in smash 4 allowed you to "register" your mii moveset. You filled out a card with the moveset and you were stuck with that moveset for the tourney
No matter what you think of the miis, brawler is hype in smash 4 and ult
10:34 Nah, this is a thing in all fighting games. There's always a cheap character. So, when that one friend picks it we call their morality into question. They did it on purpose. We feel the malicious intent. And if we win? We rub that in their face!
Yeah, like when your friend picks ken and spams shoryu in sfv
@@genesisosuna Looks like we got to introduce you to Gon in Tekken 3. He's literally too short to fight unless you are crouching or also Gon. Also he has a fireball and...I'm not sure if anyone else had a ranged attack in 3. XD
Very true. If you need a good example, look no further then vanilla Sol in Guilty Gear Strive
5:31 I had a dream once that The Hulk was in Melee. He had all of Donkey Kong's moves and for a few seconds when I awoke I wondered if he actually was in the game.
This man’s brawl bias is so funny 😂
19:16
Coney dissects each player's use of Mach Tornado while laughing about the entire situation.
Top notch commentary.
The “what the fuck” after the Mii counterpick thing had me in tears 😂
I find it hilarious that brawls tier list is a Meta Knight matchup chart.
Coney set himself up when he was talking about the Mii sizes
Fuck day 1 Mac. A friend of mine would ALWAYS set lower launch rate and played Mac whenever I played him in Smash 4.
Then I 1v1'd him and destroyed him in Mac mirrors at our first tourney. Love him for teaching me all I need for that mirror match. XD
Players take this game so seriously, but every smash game is so fucking funny!
Getting dumpstered by Bowser will always be funny to me, I super respect Bowser mains
“Hasn’t seen the Brawl one”
But the red view bar was full 😭
Not a competitive player but Sm4sh got me really into the series, I remember being in eighth grade and deciding that Smash on 3DS was the hypest shit ever and that I would do whatever it took to earn a copy. This involved cleaning out a crappy shed full of spiders and mildew. Kinda bad game in hindsight but I have a lot of fond memories with it
Coney at 11:34 : oh you're gonna be an apologist?? He made one mistake!!
Coney at 17:09 : you see what he did there? He jumped. Skill issue get good
Coney: BAYO KILLED WITH ONE MISTAKE
Also coney: LOOK AT THIS FALCO BOZO NICE JUMP DUMBAAAAAASSD
11:10 coney is referring to frostbite 2018 zenyou vs mistake
The way I see it. Meta Knight was at least funny broken, Bayo was just broken
God I love smash 4 so much. I wish we got 1 more patch to just nerf bayo and make a few of the bottom tiers better. someone needs to make a PM style mod to bring life back into that game because it was just so fun
I miss smash 4 as well xD desperately needs a lil revival
@@2breborn247 does anyone know how to fix the wii u blinking the red light and turning off after you turn it on? I tried to play smash but my wii u stopped
Bro custom moves casually was so fucking fun!
I liked custom moves, but dang they were hard to collect. Not only were some of them bad, but they didn't transfer between games.
You could actually transfer character builds from 3DS to Wii U. It’s way easier to unlock every custom on 3DS and bring the characters over than to try unlocking them all on Wii U.
Brawl icies and Small Mii Brawler are so fun.
The mii's should have just locked their moveset before the tournament starts
you should be careful for super grovers side-b, it's very strong and very quick
I think the idea of Mii Brawler in Smash 4 is you change your movesets before matchup just as you can change a Mii to be anything and adapt it how you like. Cool how the moveset and mechanics of the character can change adaptively just as a Mii can
2GG CIVIL War is probably the best tournament ever
Smash 4 is kinda the sf5 of the smash series, just without the whole "killed-half-the-entire-scene" thing
11:01, the set he is talking about is Zenyou vs mistake at frostbite 2018
You say that people hated on Bayonetta players to an unhealthy degree...but aren't people doing that with Pythra players in Ult?
5:31 not even joking, I want a Muppet fighting game now
ima main miss piggy that karate chop alone would make her a top tier
The first smash game I really played to a "competitive" level was Smash 4. I loved it at first but after Cloud and Bayo I ended up hating it (especially because of Bayo) to the point that I actually switched to Rivals of Aether, a game I really love even today and it's still technically my one true platform fighter despite its flaws.
Talking about smash 4 brought back good memories but man did the competitive scene ended badly
13:35 this is the first time in history I've ever heard people call pokemon trainer cringe
like yeah I've heard all the shit about ivy (arguably the worst of the 3) but like this hits weird its like what are you complaining about
As someone who played sm4sh but not competitively I find bayo very funny because NOBODY liked her but I'm glad ultimate doesn't have a character like her now I take it more seriously
Oh lord you haven’t fought pythra yet
@@imaforceanature7297 pythra does almost everything a character could want to do really well, bayo could do stuff no character ever should
@@tyler9039 Yeah, outside of foresight, Mythra is just a character with good frame data, and Pyra is just a heavyweight swordie
@@imaforceanature7297 pythra is very good, but there are plenty of characters that can counter her. bayo is like if pythra had a zero to death combo where you die at 20%, regardless of which character you are, off of one mistake.
Besides that, bayo is flat as hell, while pythra is the only character in ultimate with jiggle physics so... pretty sure we all know which character is worse.
@@bobthebuilder609 Bayo is more appealing for “ass” type of people (if you know what I mean)
The Elmo V Super Grover MU is definitely 30/70, when are they gonna patch him?
THE DIFFERENCE IS: counter picking characters you know what to expect. But mii fighters counter picking changing moves, the same character visually is fundamentally different and its harder to keep up with 9+ potential different moves vs 3
"DODODODODODO"
Coney sound effects are so funny
I have my own story!
It’s short.
During the days of Sm4sh, my friend always kicked my ass cause he was better than me, and I was always angry about it because I couldn’t beat him…
THEN CLOUD CAME OUT. My friend didn’t get him for reasons I forgot, but I did. I began to kick his ass, thinking I was hot shit because I had no idea Cloud was THAT busted.
Looking back now, we were all trash. Nowadays, in Ultimate, I’m at least good enough to make upsets at a local with Pac-Man. I made it to top 32.
Oh, as for my friend? He couldn’t keep up with Ultimate, I was better than him from the start, especially since we both played it starting on launch month (it was a Christmas gift from my parents, alongside my Switch, which was brand new at the time). I always mowed the lawn with him because I was just… Better.
I wish I was in chat for this one, I think Brawl Meta Knight was stronger in the sense that there was no other character even close to that level. I think Bayo was the overall stronger character because even with a character that was closer in power level as her (Cloud) she still dominated.
This man really gets mad at someone losing the game for a bad airdodge against bayi and laugh at the same situation when a falco does a bad jump against meta knight
love getting coney's insights onto the brawl days, he forgets nothing
Man imagine a dlc character with the ability to kill you at 30 from an inescapable combo
Imagine if said character could do that and also be invulnerable in alot of there moves that would be wild
Kazuya isn't anywhere near as powerful as smash 4 bayo.
I never even got her but MAN even I knew how broken she was (mostly because got into the community with ultimate tho lol)
7:00 as a mii brawler main myself, this idea sounded fantastic
3:16 mfw Aegis players call their top 1 character overrated
Will never forget people saying Bayonetta didn't need to be banned, just patched
After development already ended.
time for more content from my favorite brawl apologist
not advocating one way or the other, but the difference between changing characters for a matchup vs changing a miis moveset is that the mii still has the same normal moves, move speed, weight etc while having to pick a second character requires you to learn those things for the second character. That means that while other players have to learn entire new playstyles and mechanics, mii players would only need to adjust a few of their moves.
We need to make Sesame Street Smash Bros a thing.
what I never understood is why mii selection was banned but bayo wasn't.
Sm4sh was the game where they just threw stuff at the wall and saw what sticks.
Compare 11:34 to 17:04
Bad airdodge means you’re dead at 7%? Unforgivable. I lost years of my life commentating this character.
Bad jump means you’re dead at 20%? How about you be better next time
Great video tho! I’m not trying to be a hater lol
Toad agrees with this statement
He's right tho, the mk won the interaction
11:23 Question: Do peeps even consider Lima an EVO champ given how much a weird a--hole he is (to get banned from Texas locals for two months one time recently), what he did in EVO 2018 GFs with [Reducted] and just actually being carried by this character (like what happened in this timestamp here). This guy really isn't an EVO champ to me lol. No offense to his fans, i guess.
I’m shocked no one made the argument that you are just choosing a different character.
21:35 this is exactly what's happening with Steve right now
“Bayonetta was more oppressive than Metaknight” that’s only because Metaknight had banned techs. Imagine a fully unleashed Metaknight.
More I watch Coney the more I love the stories that I hear, so much lore here HOLY love it
Smash 4 Mario combos look sick as long as your not playing against it
Imo meta Knight was better than bayo because he was NERFED by tournament rules and STILL occupied half or more of the top 8
5:40 that sounds like the best game ever
As a proud bayo main in the smash 4 trenches, this character was not only ungodly powerful, but I’d argue she was one of the most *fun* characters in the series. By the end of the game I only played bayo bc that was the only char I had fun with in the game
That's biased af but I respect the hustle. I had that same feeling with MK but long after Brawl wasn't the competitive game for Smash
@@alejandromolina2802 oh yeah it’s super biased but once the game was nearing its end I figured I might as well have fun with it
@@ClockWorksb Once Brawl was dying I said fuck it, lab icies for 2 days and went to a local. It was fun until I lost losers finals to a MK that camp me out
Exactly my feelings on Brawl Meta Knight.
These ultra instinct John's at the 2 min mark 🤣🤣❤️❤️
Coney: "I haven't seen the brawl one"
Red line: "Am I a joke to you?"
coney casually admitting to robbing somebody at a brawl tournament