The Doctor Vs The Prime Minister | Doctor Who | The Christmas Invasion | BBC
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- As the Sycorax ship moves away, Harriet orders Torchwood to fire on them, destroying the ship. The Doctor becomes furious with Harriet, who tries to justify her actions by reminding the Doctor that he is not always there to save them. Subscribe: bit.ly/Subscrib...
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10th doctor " but they were leaving"
11th doctor " leaving is good, never coming back is better"
"Hello, I'm the Doctor. So, basically... run." He sent the right message next time, yah? I love that continuity.
Samuel Galvan to be fair, the doctor is so cool he can keep them from coming by just saying, I'm the doctor.
I was just thinking that lol
The 11th never murdered the atraxi, he just told them "I'm the Doctor, I watch over this world, so beware..."
But isn't him stating that he is "the Doctor" essentially the same as stating "I am the scourge of the Darleks"? So wouldn't that be more akin to a Warlord announcing his conquests to possible future enemies?
Well good thing her replacement wasnt an evil alien or anything... :P
Here come the drums!!!
Baby, baby, baby. You are my Voodoo Child, my voodoo child
The master lol
these are unfortunately fired by scientists...
Ah, but the Master didn't take over until more than a year later
The fact that in the Stolen Earth, Harriet is proven right AND that the Doctor's actions here are what facilitates the Master taking over as PM is an incredible bit of storytelling imo.
Also the 456 and Miracle Day.
Dude she committed genocide on the grounds of something that would have been inevitablity regardless of those aliens!
She literally made a move that only a scared coward would make
@@o_ofigures Not genocide. She didn't intend (nor, incidentally succeed) in killing all Sycorax. She just killed the ones in the ship, who had just, you know, tried to enslave Earth.
@@John_Smith. We don't know the scale and proportional significance of a single Sycorax ship, I would assume it's in the hundreds of thousands at least personally.
We did see from the ship's size it could easily hold millions upon millions of Sycorax, in which case, regardless of their importance in the overall galactic population of Syxorax, choosing to destroy that fleeing vessel was a genuine act of murder and definitely on a scale massive enough to be considered genocide in human terms.
@@John_Smith. what are you talking about?
The Definition of genocide is the mass killing of a race or ethnic group which the aliens would count as one!
You don't have to kill an entire group to be considered a genocide for example only killing 10 people can be genocide if the intent behind that mass murder was to kill them for their race or ethnic group
So yes she did in fact commit genocide!
Your point about them trying to enslave humanity would only be valid if it wasn't for the fact she killed them after they where defeated and agreed to leave so it wasn't a defensive move it was a offensive attack on a retreating army/ship
Dude by your logic
If an invading country agrees to a peace agreement and treaty
it would be perfectly fine and justified to launch a nuke at the retreating army when thier no long a threat
which that to any sane/ rational person would be consider a coward move and a war crime
"Just six."
"I don't think so."
"Six words."
"Stop it!"
"s i x"
What six words does he mean. I never got this.
Elliott Raven He said ‘Don’t you think she looks tired?’ This started a rumour that she was too tired prime minister and caused her to lose the election.
Can't state it exactly since the Fbi would be here but just notice the tone of the exchange, it's even hinted later in his story arc too.
*music starts playing*
*six: the musical cast comes out*
LIVEEEEEEEEEE
LISTEN UP LET ME TELL YOU A STORY-
“Twenty-six b i l I o n”
Glad that they actually let us hear what he said. A lot of TV shows do this "whispering mysterious words" thing but they never let us hear what they said. Drives me nuts.
Yeah and then years later the creator reveals it in an interview
Aaaaand Earth is a death star...
Blackhart Films omg you’re right....
Blackhart Films right down to the five lasers before the big death beam.
That's no planet.
MrDalek2150 It took me ten minutes to catch the reference.
Maximo Rusccitti lol I thought you said 10 years
I think the "Don't you think she looks tired?" line was him creating a rumor that she was unfit for office due to health issues, or cracking under pressure. That she's too worn down to stay a prime minister, to tired. Rumors can have devastating effects for people in the government, especially higher offices. Plus, the fact that this rumor was started by the Doctor makes it hold more weight. The icing on the cake was when she was hysterically shrieking "What did he say?!"
Thank you for explaining it to the people who were too stupid to figure it out for themselves.
polaris69234 im a murican. i cant think good
Time Lords do have low-level telepathic abilities; the Master is known to influence people's minds.
I think he knew what other people would do with doubt. He doesn't have to raise a finger. The darkness in humanity, the same darkness that made her slaughter the 'aliens', will be the equalizer
You didn't understood the scene, Alaura. He used his Telepathic Powers. He should do so more often.
the, "Im sorry..." Always gets me.
Harriet isn't evil. she made a hard decision she genuinely believed to be correct.
After this interaction, it shook her to her core.
The, "I'm Sorry", shows and understanding she let the doctor down, you can hear the doubt in her voice.
Harriet’s definitely sorry about the situation, but I’m not sure if she feels she made the wrong decision. She says in The Stolen Earth that she stands by her decision.
True, and to be fair to her she did make a good point when she argued that it's all very well for him attempting to take the moral high ground, but the fact is he comes and goes as he pleases. The Doctor may not always be there, as was the case in the Torchwood five-part mini-series Children of Earth. She acted in the interests of not only her country but for the people of the planet Earth in general who she felt in that moment she was acting in the interests of. The Doctor then ignores her and then acts as a figurative judge jury, and executioner by placing the perception in the security officer's head that "doesn't she look tired", which leads to her being removed from the prime-ministerial office. What surprises me is people make excuses for him by saying, well it was not him who had her removed as it was voted in parliament to have her removed, but the fact still remains that he still created the rumor that she was unfit to continue serving as Prime Minister. Actions, while the Doctor has done a lot of good, however, do not assuage the fact his actions could lead to potential negative consequences for Harriet due to intent which I don't think she deserved. He behaves like an arrogant dick here. She had seen the Sycorax leader specifically say that they could summon the Armada, and she couldn't take the chance the remaining ones on that space vessel were not going to return with Sycorax Armada. This episode for me does a good job of foreshadowing the Doctor heading for a fall with the events of The Stolen Earth/Journey's End as well as The Waters of Mars and leads to him having to be confronted with his own egotistical delusions of self-importance.
@@robertmcelwaine7024 Little late reply but him doing this also messes with a fixed point in time, she was supposed to have THREE terms as confirmed by Nine. He ruined her during her first. Him saying three terms was a matter of fact and so time had to compensate and rework. The Master is likely the direct result of this. The Doctor appearing at the right time for Jack to find and end them up at the end of the universe leads directly to the master who becomes prime minister, which later leads to Frobisher in Torchwood. Time was damaged, the Reapers didn't come through but time compensated itself and instead of a golden age for britain, it brought the darkest times in retaliation.
@@chazo1367 That's a good point. Ten fouled up in a big way. Removing Harriet, left a void that the Master was quick to exploit due to the Doctor's meddling in political history. This is why it would ultimately prove satisfying after coming a cropper at the end of The Waters of Mars.
It's part of being a leader. You have to make the calls. Even the bad ones. Even the ones that make you look bad. Every leader always thinks they're doing the right thing. In this case yeah we was right. And she took it upon herself to make the call even if that killed her relationship with the doctor
Spooky to see Tennant getting his Kilgrave on ten years early... And using his power against a woman called Jones too!
+Symon2099 brilliant
"I'd like to see you try."
"Arseholes try, I just do."
+Symon2099 OMG
+Symon2099
It shows me that Tennant is not a very versatile actor.
+Mayo Tango131 Then you haven't got a clue.
David tennant *sends the aliens running home. Topples a leader with 6 words because she made a judgment call on behalf of earth*
Matt smith *sends the aliens running home, brings them back to scold them*
Well, technically they left on their own because they got their prisoner. He just called them back to warn them not to fuck with earth
Maybe he learned from this experience. Maybe he heard what Harriet said and even though he disagreed with the action, saw some sense in the sentiment. Hence: "Leaving is good. Never coming back is better."
😆
@@blueeyeswhitevegeta lamguage
@@MineKurtMininer All right Captain America
The Doctor might not have been so hasty to bring about Harriet Jones' downfall had he realised who would be the next PM...
It's a shame that didn't cross The Doctor's mind in Series 3 and The Master becoming Prime Minister and ruler of the world was the consequence of bringing Harriet Jones down.
She would have been dead then
@@longps9528 No, she was still alive until she was killed in the series 4 finale.
@@commenterjosh2428 They meant that the master would have killed her anyway
@@johnroach9026 Yeah, but then everything that happened in that year was reversed, so Harriet was still alive after the season 3 finale.
You know this scene is great but I think something that need to be appreciated is how the Doctors word in the first Thirty Seconds basically confirm all of Harriets worst fears and push her into action in the first place. That was really clever
The exact words she really didn't want to hear
Ikr The Doctor should have picked his words more carefully cause the way he phrased it made it sound like many more alien threats that are more dangerous could show up to Earth and they would have no chance of winning without The Doctor helping them who travels between random points in history so he isn’t a safe option to bet on.
Also she knows she can’t convince everyone on Earth to never send satellites, rovers or spaceships out in orbit to never draw attention to themselves.
I always assumed the doctor didn't expect they had the means to attack the Sycorax from that distance.
And now the Master can easily become PM.
Thanks, Doctor.
Haha, I never thought of it that way
I don't think Harriet would have posed much of a threat to the master
@@trollloool1307 he saved her because he would have killed her otherwise
I blame Putin.
He was the Minister of Defense a short time after this.
It's really funny how she looks calm and collected, yet it's obvious she's trying so hard not to sound scared when he said "Six words", and once he does it, she completely loses it. Love this guy.
That's because "one word" was a clear metaphor for his power. "Six words" was confirmation he knew *exactly* what phrase could bring her down. And she knew that.
@@conmattang8492 Sheer confidence, man.
She'd had her eyes open to the reality and power of aliens, including him.
Douglas Adams once wrote about people who must want to rule other people and why they should not be considered fit for office.
@@Daioblis And the act of a prick. The Doctor really had something of a god complex, and this heralded the start of a fall that would come to fruition in The Waters of Mars. He took it upon himself to decide who should be the country, never mind a certain something called democracy.
David tennant: I can make all you whovians cry with a single word
whovians: no you can't
David tennant: your right four words
whovians: you can't make us cry with only four words
David tennant: I don't wanna go
whovians: 😭
Four words
+SyaoranXSakuraTC I don't wanna go.....
(;ﾟ︵ﾟ;).....
(ಥ‸ಥ) .....
(＞;Ｏ;＜)
I am sorry Dx
even this tears me up
YOOOOOOOOO ITS FUNNY CUZ ITS TRUE!!!
Some people say that this left a bad taste about Ten for them, but I disagree.
The Doctor shouldn't always be right; the Doctor shouldn't always be perfect.
From Harriet Jones's perspective, she didn't know all of the alien races out there, and in fact, she only had experience with the Slitheen and the Sycorax; it's perfectly understandable for her to do what she did thinking that she was protecting Earth.
From the Doctor's perspective, he could see the long run, how humans would cooperate with other aliens in the future, and with how much power he has, power far more than Jones's, it was easy for him to have mercy on the Sycorax--it isn't as easy for Jones. From the Doctor's perspective, Harriet's decision was a cheap shot and a horrible thing to do--but he fails to see it from her perspective. And he shouldn't always be able to see everything. I don't agree with Jones shooting down the Sycorax, but I don't think the Doctor should have ruined her for it. But that's the thing with 10, he's not perfect, he doesn't always make the right choices and there's often not a right choice for him to make, and things don't always work out for him in the end (Waters on Mars, for example); that's why he's my favorite Doctor, and I think this episode was perfect for introducing his character.
He can also see it in another way. From What I gathered, The Doctor told the Aide about how the Prime Minister looks tired. He knew the Aide would tell that to people, make them believe she is slipping in her duties. It's an example of why the Sycorax should leave. If they do keep their word, they run back and will tell stories of The Man who protects the earth, and why it should be feared. It's a very Machiavellian strategy. Let the enemy know of your mercy, and the wrath that follows if it is not taken. He showed that to the leader of the Sycorax, and he paid the price. Harriet did not see it either, as the doctor tried warning her of the dangers of using such power foolishly. She could not see it either so he ruined her golden age. At least, that's how I interperet it. True, the Sycorax may not be trustworthy, and it could lead to more trouble for the earth, but the earth has Torchwood, and UNIT, an the Doctor, so it is not without protection.
He did make the right choice. More so than ever.
Its typical human behavior... striking at what you dont understand. Attacking out of fear.
You can rationalise fear and say its to protect... But preemptive strikes against the unknown do not work.
Someone who does not understand this should not be a significant leader in the world.
I agree she has the ability to make tough decisions. An important quality, but without superior logic not only useless, but dangerous.
THANK YOU. the doctor is a complex character. he has many sides and layers to him and he doesn’t always do the right thing.
But here's the thing, Rose Mickey and Jackie all turned and left with him. They represent the viewer, and in this case the writer of this scene wants the viewer to agree with the doctor. It's not portraying him as being wrong at all. I agree with her decision 100%, because they were only leaving because they've been threatened. this wasn't striking out at the unknown in fear, this was protecting the human race from a known threat. And the Prime Minister was right that the doctor had no business interfering in Earth matters unless invited to. She was elected prime minister by the people not him.
@@jenniferconstantine9041 whenever someone says a character has layers, I'm always tempted to make a joke about Shrek... buuut, I'll spare you because what you are saying actually makes sense to me. The doctor is one of the few characters I know of that is true complex enough to be considered "layered". After all, (s)he does have 13 different incarnations, each of which was played by a different actor with a different "take" on what the doctor should be and how they should act. you've got 10's mercy (this episode for instance), 11's fire ("basically... run"), 12's wisdom and self-doubt ("am I a good man?"-"I... am... an idiot!"), and now 13's energy ("I should get a flat. Can you picture me with a sofa? Am I being weird?")
I always thought that she never finds out what he said... and that she worries and obsesses over what he possibly said and that makes her unable to do her job effectively... and then her government ends
whatever words he said to the guy don't really matter then
+Gar Tahk They do because those words place doubt in the guys mind (can't remember his name) and then when he sees her freak out over what the Doctor says he starts to think that she might not be fit for office anymore because she's "too tired". He spreads this on and then evetually she's voted out. So really the Doctor's words do matter.
I thinknit was both. The words to her aide planted the idea that she may not be fit for her office and then her obsessing over what he said makes it a true
Both are in the wrong on this one. Harriet destroying them as they were leaving may very well have been a step too far and unnecessary. And it was a mistake of her to challenge the Doctor.
On the other hand, was the Doctor right in bringing her down? Absolutely not. Never mind that the Sycorax more than likely wouldn't have been on Earth in the first place if the Doctor hadn't been bursting with so much regeneration energy, practically a beacon to races like the Sycorax, Nine said that she was supposed to have three successful terms. The Doctor removing her from power in her first term would have massively changed history.
And who took over in the gap? The Master.
Bad move, Doctor. Bad move.
Or she would have had 8 terms but the doctor cut her short to 3. Then the master took over.
Lateusvir's Random House That would have implied that over a decade passed between "Aliens of London" and "The Christmas Invasion", which I really don't think is likely. In this case, it would be almost a year later at most, and the Doctor changed history in a big way.
***** My thoughts, as well. I do find it funny that Nine said that Jones would lead Britain into a "golden age" and just a few months later almost completely undoes all of that as Ten! XD
While I agree that the Doctor shouldn't have been so hasty to destroy Jones' career, I doubt that things with the Master taking over would've been any different if he hadn't done this. I mean, if it only took the Doctor six words to take her down, the Master still should've been able to win in an election against her.
Robot Jones The big question is though, would the Master have even thought of the idea of becoming Prime Minister if history hadn't already been changed so drastically by the Doctor? It's not something he's attempted to do before, so why only after the downfall of Harriet Jones? Because the Doctor had done the work for him. It took the Doctor only six words to change history, but let's be honest, the Doctor's always been better than the Master anyway. I do remember hearing of a deleted scene in Last of the Time Lords that would have had the Master actually gloating to the Doctor about how kicking Harriet Jones out of power was what lead to the Master taking over, although I'll be honest, I'm not sure how true that is.
Shortest Golden Age ever.
Franciszek Rychlewicz yeah!
It was supposed to last from 2006 (a year after the events of 'Rose') to 2018 (three terms). The Doctor cut it short.
Some Random Guy a terms five years in the uk
@@thegoonerhd1778 The average length of a term since 1945 is 3 years 10 months. Fixed terms are, and always have been, completely disregarded.
@@thegoonerhd1778 This was before the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2010, usually a PM would call an election after 4 years or so. Even since 2010, the FTP Act has proven to be fairly pointless since the 2017 UK election.
"Don't you think she looks tired"
A prime example of how words can be far more effective than anything else when used correctly.
Rubbish.
This is RTD's ego blown out of proportion: someone saying "Don't you think she looks tired?" would never be enough alone to topple a PM who destroyed an alien ship that a thousand times more likely than not was only "leaving" to "summon the armada and take this world by force."
This is the doctor being petty. Harriet Jones didn't have faith that he was successful in intimidating the Sycorax away permanently. His vanity was wounded so he bitterly lashed out at her.
RTD being an ignorant, childish moron decided to make the doctor some infallible God-like figure who believed he could do whatever because of his ego and found other people not believing in him unbearable.
And well now we know it was actually shade thrown at Eccleston.
;^;
@@speedweed683what?
@@lonestarwolfentertainment7184 The reason given as to why Eccleston left the show was because he was tired, but we know his actual reason was far different and his words were twisted and taken out of context. Some argue that this line was a reference to that, and was character assassination.
‘Tired’ is political slang for Old
And so Ten became the only Doctor to sign his own death warrant in his very first episode. As much as I love him he really was his own worst enemy.
And he looked back on that a lot in that moment with Wilf.
@@onedaxster what?
@@Bt-cq6te When he was up there talking about how he got worse than killing, how a time lord lived too long
Planting the seeds for the timelord victorious
He's always his own worst enemy
1:34: Wait. Earth is the Death Star?
+Cam TheMan THAT BLAST CAME FROM.... the earth?
THAT THING'S OPERATIONAL!!!!
+CXimines Its A TRAP!!!!
You only now noticed?
" I am the Princess
I am a 17 year old Force User from the Planet Aldeeran
I am the one who is going to save you and the 6 Million Ewoks down on that moon
You got a problem with that ? "
Some Kruddy Krabcake Lets destroy Alderrann oh wait we can't cause some other planet beat us to the super weapon
"Don't you think she looks tired". The six words that brought down the Prime Minister. Once The Doctor said that to her PA, he then questions everything she does and it ends up snow balling and she eventually is deemed unfit to work in office, gets brought out of the government all together and ends up in a psychiatric ward talking about how aliens are coming and "six words". Brilliant script writing.
Hungry Kid I think it was more on the stress on her side, she went nuts trying to figure out what he did, while the gossip that "she looks tired" spreaded
+Hungry Kid In a day... according to the time line of the show. Thats not good script writing, mostly because he was an Aide, and would have an interest in NOT spreading that rumor.
Cygnus X-01 - He was just a tool. The Doctor does that to people. Just look at what Eleven did in the Eleventh Hour. He took an ordinary person with a computer and gave him a job. Besides, the contrast of the aide and him are night and day. Yes he was confused but he went back to work doing his job.
@@jeanleon1637 I always assumed that he deliberately held the aide’s microphone up so whoever was on the other end of the line heard him too.
And also allowing the Master into power, which eventually led to the latter's death and later resurrection, which in turn resulted in the Doctor's regeneration
Also it allowed the 456 incident to take place
She represents every world leader who's had to make a tough call. And what makes it tough is that both she AND the Doctor are right. I'd've preferred that she kept a stiff upper lip rather than falling apart like that, tho.
And, what of Torchwood, eh?
The Glasgow branch disappeared before we ever got a look at it. Then London's was wiped out. Finally, Cardiff. It was implied once that there were other branches. With Sarah Jane Smith now MIA for a while, who's job is it to look after the Earth while the Doctor's away?
I get the feeling he's going to be more involved with UNIT in the coming series
MEKKANNOID That would be cool.
There was mention of a Future Options Committee that would decide what would happen to Torchwood after the Canary Wharf Battle. We never got to see it. A gem that wasn't used.
UNIT seems to be the favourite now.
zoppie Glasgow branch was one weird guy who retired, Torchwood 4 was and I quote 'lost, but don't worry, they'll show up eventually.' India division was shut down by Jack sometime in the 20th century. And Cardiff was blown up and moved to the stars network with 2 surviving members.
okay here the thing in that moment the earth went from being a planet who if you attack and surrended you had hope and now it is a planet where you have to try your darndest to wipe them out before they do it to you so in short she doomed earth to eternal war because eventually they are going to run up against a race who is far to strong for them or can match them
1:10 - 1:25
You can see she isn't happy about having to make that decision
Love how he told her that the galaxy was full of much greater threats than the Sycorax, threats that the Sycorax were off to tell about Earth, and then was surprised that she destroyed them. Cmon, Doc, you should know better by now what fear can make people do.
He actually didn't say they were going to tell others about Earth, that was something she came up with in her own head. The Doctor said that humanity is the one sending out probes and signals to gain attention and that they should get used to it.
The Sycorax proved they couldn't be trusted, when one of them tried to kill the Doctor when he turned his back. Harriet was right to do what she did.
harriet was right to blow them up. the head guy went back on his word. he swore on his species that he would leave and never return. what did he do? he got right back up and went to attack again. the doctor stopped him in time, and thats what harriet did here too.
+lordlossize “Enclave” GG And she is right - The Doctor does come and go and who would defend The Earth when The Doctor was not around?
Daniel Williamson point proven in the stolen earth. if it werent for her, reality would be destroyed
She tried to reason and justify her actions to The Doctor. But The Doctor did not listen and did not care. He won't always be around to defend and save the Earth.
Well this sure can... BOOM there it is! ^^
Like I said, predictable. :-)
And what did the Doctor think these slavers were going to do. Just go home. No they would have invaded another world instead.
I was on harriet on this when i first saw this until i realized that in a battle of planets, earth just declared that they are prepared for everything when they just started to realize that there are aliens out there. Its like holding a gun and shouting i can fight while your enemies are already using nuclear bombs.
Several species of aliens had already tried to kill humans several times, just for being a peaceful and defenseless species. They were targets regardless, that's why the sycorax were there in the first place. They thought the Earth was defenseless and then tried to enslave and murder billions of people. Harriet did nothing wrong.
Really didn't like the doctor in this moment. Harriet did what she felt she needed to do to protect mankind. Was it wrong? Maybe. Maybe not. But what the Doctor did was pretty inexcusable. And Harriet ends up sacrificing her life later for this man and to once again protect mankind, even after he does this to her.
Vinny Dupree I suppose you could say that. However, the Doctor is an alien. She had just declared war against aliens who come to Earth. You can come but you can't ever leave again.
She committed murder by killing a retreating force. She had no regard for the lives she took.
You must be some lunatic. You’re supposed to side with him, freak
She apologized. You’re a bigger freak than the fictional character 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Maybe unpopular but this is my favourite Xmas special. I remember watching it as a child and even today I love how simple this one is Harriet Jones is one of my favourite characters. She needed more time there is a lot of potential and I think removing her so soon was a mistake.
It certainly was, even for the Doctor..
This was one of the few occasions where I disagreed with the doctor. Sure she went too far with having the ship destroyed after retreating but to be fair, it's probably what any other leader would have done if they were concerned about the safety of their nation or the whole world, and to be completely honest the sycorax didn't look like a very trustworthy bunch. The doctor bringing her down like that seemed more like personal vindictiveness.
Yeah, but now the earth just showed that it has weapons and can fight, but it’s just waving a pistol around while the rest of the universe is using nuclear weapons.
@@FrostyTheSnowPickle True but it might have shown some of the other aliens that are potential threats "this place will fight us and is too much of a headache lets find somewhere else."
I mean, they made it pretty clear that they had no respect for things like, y'know, the fundamental rights of sentient beings.
Exactly, the Sycorax literally murdered some humans and had every intention of conquering all of earth while the Doctor slept, the humans would have been wiped out if the Doctor wasn't in commission
@@FrostyTheSnowPickleThe Earth was peaceful and defenseless before, and like four other species of aliens tried to enslave and sell them anyways. It doesn't matter, Earth was always going to be attacked and aggressed by other species, regardless.
Coming back as David Tennant goes up against another Prime Minister (spoiler alert he's going to win this one too)
Don't you think she looks tired?
Still don't get how that got her out of office.
Vanitas Reborn It started her official questioning her decisions and leadership because it suggests she might be losing it a bit. He in turn spreads the idea to others which brings her down.
JP Kloess Oh
MaryAngela Senter i counted in my head when he said that
and yup 6 it is
jocovaar he could have done it in 4 though- doesn't she look old?
Hasn't Harriet thought that killing them may bring others who want revenge?
No one would know
kelly wilson whitehead
they'd know that they mysteriously disappeared while heading to earth
Alex gaming that could have been anyone of the aliens hiding the solar system
Or they could fly away and come back with an invasion five times that size. If Earth had completely annihilated their initial invasion of that size they might actually rethink invading it...
@@innocentferret2365 The Proclamation of the Shadows protects every developed planet, and more importantly, the Doctor does. Only some full-logical, emotionless, pure war-made species like the Daleks or the Cyberman, have the power to invade any planets without being prosecuted. Because no one could really do it, mostly
Five words sum up this entire scene: Fury of a Time Lord.
David Tennant to Rishi Sunak
10th - "But they were leaving!"
11th - "Leaving is good, never coming back is better"
As dramatic as it is, I LOVE the way 10th face changes when he realises what Harriet as done. He went from being a happy man with his friends who are safe from an alien threat, to a man with an anger that cold... It could have been the foundation of the iceberg that sank the Titanic...
If the Doctor is smart enough to predict the effect of six words on Harriet Jones' career, you'd think he'd have chosen his words more carefully before she decided to blue up the Sycorax ship.
David Tennant's Doctor was actually quite dark when he started, but mellowed a lot over time. I think people forget that he wasn't soft and warm all the time, he really had his moments.
Same as Peter Capaldi, but his Doctor has more of a nasty and uncaring streak, which I think is awesome.
Old comment yes, but the show actually pointed this out at the end of Season 4, when the Metacrisis Doctor was created. He was created from _this_ stage of the Doctor. The Doctor points out that Rose had changed him and now "John Smith" needed her.
Timelord victorious
Yes but his darkest moments were at the end of his era
"don't you think she looks tired?" i originally thought this was a stretch, but to see it happen in the united states over the last few weeks keeps bringing me back to this scene.
The amazing reversal though. 'He looks tired/old' getting flipped around to 'He's weird', and I just cannot keep smiling about it.
@@Jokie155”don’t you think he’s rather weird?”
As much as what Harriet says makes sense, it definitely doesn't justify her actions. If they were attacking and not retreating, then by all means, Death Star 'em. But not just for the easy way out.
+Shawn the Prawn the head guy went back on his swear, and he had sworn on the blood of his species. why would they be any different? theyd probably have left, gotten reinforcements and returned with vengance
+lordlossize “Enclave” GG I agree once you throw away your honor and word I wouldn't hesitate to protect my planet or my fellow man. The Doctor has sometimes been a hypocrite for this reason.
chromeshellking exactly!
KnightsNDragons its not like they were lying and using fake blackmail to enslave billions of people. oh wait they were.
***** exactly!
Harriet was right. There was no guarantee that the alien ship wouldn't come back. Also they could just as easily spread the word to other races who are VASTLY technologically superior and looking for an easy target.
No, destroying it was stupid. You don't think the Sycorax would send out search teams to look for a missing ship?
The only thing she accomplished was sending a message.
And that message was "We are ready for war, we are prepared to kill"
She only attracted MORE attention to earth.
AmericanPoliceState Another commenter made the following point, and to me it makes a lot of sense. Given their perspective, they were both right.
To The Doctor, the human race is really just another group of aliens. Therefore, there will always be a slight disconnect between he and the human race. So, when he witnessed what he saw, to him it just looked like one monstrous race killing off another. Given his perspective as a more objective party, he was completely right.
On the other hand, Harriet Jones has to protect the human race at all costs. The aliens were leaving, yes, but they had just tried to conquer the planet just moments ago. She had no idea what they were going to do afterwards. For all she knew, they were going to get reinforcements and try to conquer the planet again. So, given her perspective, she was also completely right. that's what makes this scene so great. They were both in the wrong, but at the same time, they were both completely right.
locutus94 A large man with a gun tries to mug you, but he stops, and as he is leaving you throw a rock at his head, good idea or bad?
She made a horrible decision by ignoring the opinion of the only being present qualified to make an educated decision.
Leaf Shade You're right, however, you have to take her perspective into account. The Doctor isn't always around. Therefore, there are times when the human race MUST take provisions to defend itself. All she knew was an alien race had just tried to conquer Earth and those very same aliens were heading back out into space. For all she knew, they could be coming back with even more people. So, she had to make a judgement. She decided to make a preemptive strike to prevent them from ever returning.
"six words, don't you think she looks tired?" BEAT THAT TERESA MAY!!!!
She certainly looks tired today...
what did it mean
"The Doctor supports anything I agree with because the Doctor is good, and anything I agree with is also good" - Some Neo-Nazi probably
@Everything Coolno, instead it'll cripple Britain with increased spending and retarded communist policies.
So Neo-Nazis oppose killing? That's something the Doctor supports. He's very against killing.
My thoughts on Donald Trump:
Don't you think he looks tired?
+Jackie McCann My thoughts on any violent feminist.
+Jackie McCann How about Hillary: "Don't you think she looks confused?"
nypost.com/2015/11/16/hillary-is-often-confused-says-trusted-aide-huma-in-fresh-emails/
+Jackie McCann .. Donald Trump just used that tactic on Hillary Clinton today. He said she didn't have stamina. This clip was the first thing I thought of
+Jackie McCann ?
i don't get it.
+Nifty-Oakheart They neglect to include the part where the 10th's comment on how Harriet looks tired affects her future. After he makes the comment to her aide, other people question her ability to lead the nation and eventually result in a vote of no confidence. If things didn't turn out this way, it would have lead her to three successive terms and a supposed Golden Age for Britain, by her guidance.
One of the worst mistakes the Doctor could make. He could solved this differently, but he was blinded by his personal views, that he forcibly had a elected official removed, only to bring in someone far, far worse: Harold Saxon, AKA The Master.
The Sycorax leader demonstrates like 5 minutes before that he doesn't care about 'ancient rites of combat' or whatever, and IMMEDIATELY goes back on his word in attempting to attack the Doctor while his back is turned ... yet the Doctor seriously thinks the rest of the armada will just totally keep their word and never come back. He even chooses this time to give a whole speech to Harriet about how the planet is drawing more attention to itself and she should expect more invasions in the future! and yet somehow she's not meant to make the rational decision to proactively defend her planet from the people who JUST invaded and threatened to murder and enslave her people???? Harriet 1000% made the right decision.
ironically this prbly saved her from the master
Ah so a single Sycorax leader defines the attitudes of his entire race?
Okay, all humans are war criminals because Harriet Jones killed an opponent that has surrendered and was fleeing.
Can someone please comment on how this is a not even remotely subtle commentary on the sinking of the Belgrano by Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in the Falklands War?
While I think that Harriet's actions were arguably a war crime and are indefensible, The Doctor's six words are an unfortunate example of him playing off of humanity's misogyny as he absolutely knew how effective they could be in cratering her career.
Harriet Jones is based on Margaret Thatcher, the destruction of the Sycorax ship is a reference to the sinking of the ARA General Belgrano ship which Thatcher ordered to fire at in the Falklands War which was sailing away killing over 300 Argentinians. Thatcher famously hardly slept in office with only three-five hour sleeps a night which built up concerns in later in office about her wellbeing and brought about the health problems later on after she left.
Don’t you think Biden looks a little tired?
The Doctor: *rattles off all this stuff about how there are thousands of races out there and that Earth is drawing attention to itself*
The Doctor when Harriet Jones blows these invaders up to send a message that Earth is defended: *surprised pikachu face*
Seriously you can practically see how her face falls at the beginning of the clip.
Breaking a peace treaty will surely grab thier attention even more goid job harriet you failed.
Shadow Proclamation: *iNtReStiNG*
@@WhenInDarknessSeekTheLight I mean, the leader who swore to leave and never come back went back on his word in a matter of seconds. Not exactly a great building of trust for the leader of a country who's just been told that a) there are thousands of more advanced races out there, and b) that the Earth is starting to get properly noticed.
Ended England's golden age and facilitated the Master's rise to power.
*sarcastic slow clap* Good job doctor.
The doctor and Jakie's relationship is so cute to watch
I thought it at the time, and "The Stolen Earth" proved Harriet Jones was right: "I knew that one day the earth would be in trouble and the Doctor would fail to appear".
Harriet was perhaps in the wrong for firing on the Sycorax, but she wasn't wrong about the Doctor. He's not always there to protect humanity, and people did die while he slept (through no fault of his own).
And The Doctor was absolutely in the wrong for removing her from being the PM. He even said himself that she would bring about Britain's Golden Age, yet he not only prevented that, but also created the conditions to allow the Master into power.
I do wish there was perhaps just a scene where the Doctor has to confront whether or not he did the right thing here.
Honestly, I felt she made the right call. Enemies stay away out of fear of what you are capable of doing to defend yourself. The Doctor isn’t always there, and she made a tough call.
but it could also bring retribution
Wolves600Gaming From more Sycorax I doubt it. I don’t see other species bothering with a race that can defend itself but not occupy any other worlds.
I think this is a case where a warning shot (a near miss) would have had a greater effect. That would say we had the power to destroy you but we choose not to. She WAS right about the Doctor though. -- Says I to a four-year-old comment on a nine-year-old video from an eighteen-year-old episode of a sixty-year-old show.
@@daverhoden445 - The problem with a warning shot (other than recharge time) is that if the beam doesn’t dissipate over distance, someone, somewhere is going to get hit. You don’t shoot from the hip with a weapon of mass destruction.
I noticed during a recent rewatch that the Sycorax leader swore on the blood of his species right before he betrayed the Doctor. Seeing the Sycorax leaders cowardly attack on the Dr after agreeing to his terms probably influenced Jones
Well, I think I agree with Harriet's decision. I know they were leaving, but who's to say they wouldn't have returned or told others of Earth? Remember what the Doctor said earlier? "No second chances." He gave that Sycorax a chance to leave, made him swear on his species, and yet the Sycorax STILL attacked him before falling to his death. They couldn't be trusted.
but they were leaving and if they were to come back then the Doctor could just come back. ALWAYS TRUST THE DOCTOR!!!!!!
kinda wrong to generalise the whole race of being untrustworthy just because of their chieftain on the ship
hbkdabaybeast
I guess, but if people die while he is around he can't go back and fix it because he can't interfere in his own timeline.
That is just a horrible thing to say! Only one individual member of the sycorax attacked him, and the Doctor treated him as an individual and let him and only him die after he squandered his second chance. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever for all of those poor people to die after they had learned their lesson and fled. To kill all of those poor people because they belonged to the same species as that man is just... racism, speciesism and a gross generalization on a huge scale. .
Valter Östberg
But weren't these "people" following that leader, carrying out his decisions for him? I suppose if they were forced then that changes everything, but I will assume not since there was no sign of this. I didn't want to sound like a racist of any sort, it's just how I was seeing things as a picture. It's... complicated.
Harriet was totally right here-- if not in shooting the Sycorax, she was right in her takedown of the Doctor and his hero complex. Here we see the beginning of the Doctor as he becomes in the Waters of Mars, the timelord victorious who can pass judgement and sentence with a snap of his fingers.
She apologized, you inbred moron 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm sorry, but she got way too much flack in this scene. Based on what we had seen, they couldn't be trusted and they threatened to use their armada's full force once the Blood control failed.
(Sorry for the rant)
That's what I love about this scene. Both the Doctor and Harriet were technically right, its really a matter of perspective. To the Doctor, the human race are just another kind of alien. Aliens that fascinate him, yes, but they're still not people he can fully connect with. There will always be something of a divide. He was looking at this from a wider perspective and from the perspective of an outsider. He can see the potential for the human race to ruin interactions with aliens the same way we have a habit of committing genocide on 'outsider' groups on our own planet. Humans are monsters in that sense.
On the other hand we have Harriet's viewpoint, which is also valid. She cant 'see into the future' and its true that the Doctor isn't always around to save the day. He cant be. From what she could see the aliens were threatening the human race and could very easily turn around and continue their assault once the Doctor had left. They clearly didn't care much about who the Doctor was at first and it took a lot of convincing to get them to leave. They see the human race as beneath them and as a possible resource. Of course there's a likelihood they'll go against their word and we as an audience have no way of knowing if they would or not. Its also a rather smart strategy to show power. 'You threaten to kill a third of the human population? We're not gonna take that lying down or let it go unpunished.' That's the message she was sending. 'Don't threaten us, we can defend ourselves and we will kill you.' From Harriet's perspective it was a smart idea.
So yeah the Doctor may have been right, but he may have also made a big mistake and that's what I loved about this era of Dr Who: the Doctor could and did make mistakes.
sutragrub Ten bringing down Harriet Jones also paved the way for Harold Saxon (The Master, of course!) to come into power.
Copper Flash Well obviously the master is a time lord so he coulda one way or another broke jones's powers as prime mister.
Copper Flash The doctor brought down Saxon/The master by three words: "I forgive you"
Joseph Sullivan That's one big double-standard if you ask me.
Did anyone notice how he positioned that head piece so everyone on the other end would hear him.
Harriet Jones ordering the destruction of the Sycorax ship reminds me of when the Brigadier and UNIT blew up the Silurian base at the end of "Doctor Who and the Silurians". The Doctor was not happy about that either.
Or when Ambrose killed Alaya in "Cold Blood".
Who Music True.
The fact that Nicholas Courtney, to my knowledge, was never even asked to be in New Who is a crime within itself.
+Morbius Fitzgerald Russel T Davies was able to get him for the sarah jane adventures though.
The irony: He paved the way for Harold Saxon becoming Prime Minister.
Harold Saxon didn't kill a whole species in cold blood
@@themostbritishpersonalive868 He just enslaved one.
@@themostbritishpersonalive868 Neither did Jones. The Sycroax don't in fact all live on a single ship. They turn up in The End of Time and The Magician's Apprentice as background cameos. Plus a bunch of audio and comics.
@@John_Smith. yeah but SHE didn't know that it's all about intent
@@Anubis2705 he was elected they knew what they were getting into
The fact that she ended up being right in the end. Smh. The doctor is wrong sometimes and my personal opinion I thought he was a bit of a hypocrite, seeing as he’s killed entire species before.
Harriet Jones = Liz Truss?
Vote Saxon = Vote Sunak
No, she probably lasted longer.
(1:23) What's that behind her? In the dark alley, to the left of her head. Something moves.
So cool how the Doctor said he should have told them to run as fast as they can from humans and in 11’s first episode he tells the atraxi just that
this is because tony stark learns from his mistakes
Hello, Harriet Jones defenders. Just like to let you know that you are justifying a war crime. Not saying this to feel superior, when I first watched this episode, I was with her as well, but it was stupid. War crimes can always seem tactical. Why not blowing up enemies hospitals? They are easy targets, it will weaken them in a fight significantly and it will greatly demoralise them. Why not going after the fighters' families like Trump once proposed? The answer is you just don't do that. Ever. Even if your enemy is a pure monster, who adheres to no such rules (like ISIS).
Don't forget that mercy is a weapon too and freakin' efficient one. The main reason why there was yet no World War III is that the world decided NOT to punish Germany, Italy and Japan for their atrocities aiming for solidarity and cooperation instead. It was not just the moral decision, in the long term it was the most tactical one.
To add to this, punishing Germany for World War 1 cause their economic collapse which led to Hitler gaining power.
How was this a war crime? As far as we know, none of the Sycorax aboard the ship were Civilians, and none of them appeared to be disloyal to the cause. None of them were injured or ill, to the best of our knowledge. The ship was, by all appearances, a war ship. Or at least, a ship with hostile intent. Blowing it up was barbaric, I agree with that. But it was literally defending Earth's borders. Which every country has the right to do.
I really don't like what Harriet did at all. But she made it clear WHY she did it and I see where she was coming from.
They were retreating
To attack surrendered forces is a major war crime
Nah, Harriet Jones was in the right. They can't always rely on the Doctor to be there when aliens are attacking the Earth, and there are a lot of nasty races out there.
The Doctor: Fear the universe, Harriet. There's thousands of hostile alien races out there, all wanting a piece of Earth...
Harriet: responds accordingly
The Doctor: :0
Harriet was 100% right to do what she did. The Sycorax had already proven they weren't honorable, when one tried to kill the Doctor after he turned his back. The people of Earth couldn't just sit back and cross their collective fingers and HOPE the Sycorax didn't return at some future point. The Tenth Doctor was completely wrong in this particular instance.
Me: **meets someone new**
My brain: don’t say it
My brain: don’t say it
My brain: don’t say it
Me: Harriet Jones former prime minister
New person: I know..
Yes. I know who you are.
Yes. We Know Who You Are.
The Sycorax are not creatures of honour, their former leader was evident of that. He lied about the extent of his powers, he struck down unarmed people who asked for mercy, and he attempted to strike after conceding defeat. Who’s to say the Sycorax wouldn’t have come back in full force? Those that returned would speak of a world they fled from, another would no doubt come for a challenge, hearing legends of a champion who grew back severed limbs, and no doubt would rain Hell to meet him.
Harriet Jones did the right thing. It was brutal, but she had a duty to her nation - she just overstepped the boundary a little by presuming she was representing all of Earth, and it would have been a better message to left the Sycorax crippled and at the mercies of another race, just to show it’s not just the Doctor to fear, but Earth is capable of defending herself.
ironically this prbly saved her from the master
Actually the Sycorax are. Trial by combat is their law and the average Sycorax will honor it willingly. Using a single person in power to represent their whole race is a terrible argument.
Against a human foe, killing a surrendered and fleeing opponent would be a war crime. Does that mean every human is a war criminal because of Harriet Jones?
The Doctor needs to save Britain from itself
Dirk Diggler Brexit much
***** Nah. Brexit was a step in the right direction,
Dirk Diggler yes I'm sure the doctor fully suports rampant nationalism
Dirk Diggler Brexit is a diaster
Politics aside, Farage has an incredibly punchable face.
This scene kinda left a bad taste in my mouth with the 10th Doctor. He knew this woman would usher in a golden age, and he decided to depose her for defending the planet from aliens who murdered people right in front of her.
He got better later on, but for me, it was a bad first impression.
Exactly.
for me something that will always make me look back at 10 negitivly is his first and last impressions
first:stopping a golden age due to a disagreement
last:whiney brat
For MURDERING a ship full of aliens who had agreed to leave peaceably. If they had fired earlier it would be completely justified, but NOT now. THIS is a war crime, nothing less
"Don't you think she looks tired?"
That's the quote I usually think of whenever my favorite franchises (Marvel, Star Wars, DC and yes, sometimes EVEN DOCTOR WHO ITSELF, etc) keep repeating the same formula over and over again...
The Doctor"That was murder!"
Harriet"It was defense!"
Americans in a nutshell.
They're British
lol
*Americans nuke two civilian cities*
Japan: dude you just obliterated 200,000 civilians!
America: It was defense!
And Britain under Thatcher. Cf the Falklands War
@@weiserthanyou2052 It wasn't so much defense as it was mercy, without the nukes a bloody land invasion would have ensued killing millions and likely having the same thing that happened in Germany happen to Japan, raped and killed by the red army.
I'm sorry Doctor, I'm inclined to agree with the Prime Minister. The Sycorax aboard that ship were behaving like a gang of interstellar pirates who, before long, would have moved on to another civilized planet they could terrorize and extort. A planet without a frequently visiting Time Lord who would heroically step in on their behalf to defend them, and that'd just be too bad, wouldn't it? I don't like they way they did it, but Torchwood did the galaxy a favor.
Rose's mother and the doctor hugging is genuinely the most wholesome thing I've seen
This is the perfect example of how incredible the writing was during the Russel T Davies era. The 'six words' speech was just genius. It's a shame in recent years they've really lost that spark.
And the 13th tried so hard on speeches but failed.
I'm with Hariot Jones on this one. They came to Earth for a fight and they got one.
Hey, can we have David Tennant visit Donald Trump and say this quote on National TV?
She looks tired. President Trump. High Energy
Trump is trying to do it with Hillary, questioning her physical stamina.
It's kinda disgusting and sexist.
Just like this scene.
+Aytri Siv'ari how is this scene sexist just because the actor is a girl does not mean that it immediately is sexist because she's a bad person . Women can be bad too you know and so can men
applies a hell of a lot more to Hillary, especially with her having large coughing fits every time she actually manages to make a public appearance (not very often)
What Harriet did kind of reminds me of what the 11th Doctor said.
"Leaving is good. Never coming back is better."
Well, the Sycorax certainly wouldn't be coming back.
The Doctor did it in a way though that doesn't involve killiung a retreating group and simply intimidating them into sending the word out that the Earth is defended, it is watched and there is consequences to anyone who comes with hostile intent and doesn't leave when given the option.
Correction: THOSE Sycorax will not be coming back. The ones that are coming to check on them, on the other hand ...
Just six, six words, six.
'Would you like a jelly baby?'
But later, She is PROVEN right. When the Master captures the Doctor and takes over the world. Martha, Harriet and other HUMANS save it and the Doctor.
I think she ultimately made the right call. In a universe full of hostile aliens, humanity has to flex what muscles it has to keep their planet and species from being destroyed or exploited until they can be counted among the other great civilizations.
One of Tennant's finest scenes, up there with the ending to Waters of Mars. The Doctor can be silly and funny, but when he has to, he can be most mature person I've seen in a while.
Did anyone else notice how the Torchwood lasers were fired in a Death Star pattern at 1:38?
George Lucas should sue the BBC!
If you think about it those lasers easily give away Torchwoods location
@@austinstruhar8160 You could apply headcanon that they're just random separate outposts that are isolated / can self-destruct. No biggie.
Ever since the episode Arachnids of the UK, I've been thinking of this moment.
Arachnids in the UK also had a moment where someone kills a threat against the Doctor's wishes. However, in this moment, they actually give Harriet Jones a fair argument. I think she's justified, certainly from her point of view; there was no guarantee that the aliens weren't going to return and she felt she needed to protect Earth and it's people from alien threats.
In AotUK, the American shoots the spider (ending it's suffering) and the Doctor just yells at him and said it was going to die anyway. What was she going to do? Let it slowly suffocate? Then he talks some babble about being a hero and walks out, while the music is supposed to make us think he's wrong. No; I think he's justified, but it's as if the show doesn't want to give him a fair argument in rebuttal.
Xasybe'an. Agreeing with Harriet Jones with 6 words, just 6: Torchwood Series three children of earth
I haven’t seen AitUK. Not prepared to watch an episode on spiders but I haven’t heard anything good about it.
@@xenon8117basically, the doctor decides to let a bunch of spiders suffocate/starve to death instead of insta killing them
@@notapplicable6985 The entire episode was written around "Trump bad." The political messaging in that episode was so blatent and detrimental to the story that it actually killed my interest in Dr Who after more than a decade of watching it.
You know what would be an even greater irony? By bringing down Harriet Jone's golden age and letting Harold Saxton take over, could that have helped prevent the Third Great and Bountiful Human Empire from occurring?
The Doctor and the Daleks. The presence of both are shaping human history in the past, present, and future. Over fifty years ago, the Doctor's visits into the past saw the 21st century blooming with futuristic technology. What if their combined meddling left us as we are today, stuck on this rock with terrorists, useless politicians and a pop culture of apathy where we care more about TV shows and the internet?
There is no other possibility.
Ah Doctor, as much as I love ya, you really dropped the ball on this one. Not only did you cheat Great Britain out of it's golden age, you changed history for the worse, with the "fixed points in time" and all.
Yeah, if he didn't do this then, "Harold Saxon" would never have been prime minister!!!
I love how the Doctor got so angry with her after she (potential) saved millions of lives and afterwards attempts to ruin her career while he himself has "murdered" more species than he probably cares to remember, fleeing or otherwise. Her actions were obviously justified, she saw the Sycorax leader attempt to kill The Doctor with his back turned after he swore on the blood of his people to leave peacefully, which shows they cannot be trusted. Good on you Prime Minister you, unlike The Doctor, have the balls to save your own people before it's too late.
Obviously joking of course, love the show. :)
Six words: "let's have a referendum on Europe."
Harriet is wrong because
1. They were afraid of the Doctor, who is always protecting earth
2. They were probably never coming back since they were a small crew, not the whole race
3. The Doctor has a TIME machine, he can sleep whenever he wants and then come back in time to stop any threat on earth
What about everything Sarah Jane and Torchwood handle? The 456 is the biggest incident along with Miracle Day and he doesn’t even pop up once. This led to Torchwood 3’s downfall which weakened them for Miracle Day.
1:43 pretty sure you can hear Sycorax screaming in horror. Chills.
I always thought Harriet was right in this case. The Doctor only shows up when he wants to, the Earth needed someone at all times.
I agree, and Torchwood is proof of this. Jack is always having to make sacrifices because the doctor is never there.
Always found it obscenely arrogant of the Doctor to pull this. He has a time machine that can travel faster than light in real space. But suddenly a nation decides to not rely on him and defend themselves? Suddenly that's a big no-no.
Remind me Doctor...how many children did you burn with The Moment?
2:07 The Doctor: "That was murder!"
Harriet: "That was defense."
THAT WAS 100% MURDER!
They just invaded Earth and controlled millions of people, that was defence.
@@xenon8117 But they were running. The Sycorax stood down, agreed to leave and made a run for it. It's defence if they were attacking but is shooting someone in the back while they're running _Defence_ ? No. It isn't.
The Womping Wampa They are slavers they are all guilty and don’t deserve to go out there and do the same to another planet. What are the chances those planets will have the doctor or Torchwood to defend themselves.
The doctor did a half-assed job in this episode, the real hero is Harriet Jones.
How would you feel if you were their next target because they would have been free to move on?
@@xenon8117 On your point of it being from my POV, it makes no sense because I have no idea that they were allowed to roam free. Secondly, I've realised the Outcome's screwed either way. The Doctor lets the Sycorax go to warn other Aliens of Earth but also possibly condemns other planets to them again. The Sycorax being killed is good because they may save some planets from the Sycorax but in the end, what's stopping other aliens like the Sycorax from coming down and trying to pick up where they left off?
So, in conclusion, nobody's in the right with either choice. Doctor Who just loves to make you question your morals, eh?
@@thewhompingwampa2671 Normally you'd be 100% correct in your assessment that it wasn't defense, it was revenge. However, you have to remember that the Sycorax retreated ONLY after:
- immediately violating the negotiated ceasefire (warcrime)
- they murdered a member of a diplomatic envoy sent under a flag of truce (warcrime)
- directly attacking civilians (warcrime) in their initial scheme...
- for the purposes of mass enslavement (crime against humanity/sentient species)
Because of the specific, repeated and egregious nature of just causes and processes of war; they forfeited the normal protections granted to belligerent powers in a time of war.
Thus, it was valid not to stop at their retreat but to eliminate their ability to wage war; which the doctor failed to do. He tried to negotiate a standard treaty when a total, complete and unequivocal surrender on the part of the Sycorax would have been the only acceptable scenario to allow them to live. Something like, perhaps; all of their military and political leaders submitting to arrest, or perhaps even execution; in exchange for the rest of the Sycorax on the ship being allowed to live and retreat.
It's funny, I actually think the Ninth Doctor WOULDN'T have deposed her - he knew she'd bring a golden age. He wouldn't have been happy with what she did, but deep down he'd know she was right
"Don't challenge me Harriet Jones, because I'm a completely new man!"
10th has gone far and changed history way too many times, and it was Adelaide in Waters of Mars who finally confronted him about it.
Ábel Farkas he was rather arrogant... which I feel gets overlooked by a lot of fans because he's 'cute' and 'quirky'
CaruCath97
I agree
+CaruCath97 i think your right about the 9th doctor the dalek in 'dalek' put it best 'you would make a good dalek', oh and lets not forget he was very close to wiping out all life on earth in his finale (literally the episode before this) so yeah i think he might have let her slide
Now, this scene but this time it's Doctor Malcolm Tucker and Nicola Murray.
This comment is simply made of win. Shame it doesn't have more likes. :)
I dont think Harriet and Nicola belong in the same league ;)
I think this conversation between the two is excellent. I can agree with both of them. I don't think I've seen this kind of stuff post season 4.