"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature - a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more... something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity along in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers." Malcador the Sigilite
The Lion and Leman are both executioners, merely that Leman is used when the result needs to be known and the Lion is used when no memory is wanted. The Lion gets a result, the Wolves get a result and a *message*.
Not really though. It was Russ who exterminated the lost legions and there is no 'message', it was all expunged. There are only supressed rumours. Exaclty like you described Lion would be used
@@janmarkiewicz1889 what aré you going on about neophyte? Thats just fan theory, dont be such a Runt, you would shame the Wolf who dont need to try to discredit others to boast about victorys.
@@janmarkiewicz1889 We don't have canon confirmation, that Russ was involved. And both him and the Lion was heavily involved in the Rangdan wars, where one of the lost legions supposedly varnished.
This book was the truest representation of the Dark Angels. You cannot change my mind. ‘The First Legion fights out of duty, not for the accolades we expect to receive. Loyalty. Honour. These are virtues best measured by a warrior’s brothers, and not to be judged second-hand by those who never held a blade by their side. Centuries from now, the actions of the First will be unpicked by scholars and I do not doubt that we will be judged harshly. They will never know of our valour, of the sacrifices we made for my father’s ideal. They cannot. They would not thank us for the blood we spilled upon our hands in their name. But in our hearts, in the remembrances of our own, we will know the truth - we did our duty. That is all the justification we seek and it is sufficient. We are as the Emperor made us - weapons, created for this bloody time, and as weapons we can ask nothing more of Him than that.’ - The Lion
I always imagined the dark angels knowing full well that they were merely weapons of war, a means to an end, not some chosen sons of the Emperor. This is why the Emperor doesn't worry about the lion betraying him, because he already knows and accepts what he is
I love how the lions primarch book added so much for the lore of the first. Finally we can see the glory purpose of the dark angels instead of the tired fallen troupe
The first out there after all, the Angels of death Sent from mankind to all who would opose us, to leave no trace and to make no boast about It, just our duty
They were the Emperor's Bodyguard when the Emperor took to the stars for the first time , looking for his missing sons . So no wonder they got gear and technology entrusted to them that is deemed too dangerous for most to use . So in that point I do agree that the Dark Angels were exterminators and not executioners . And the few stories where the Dreadwing appear proves that theory .
There is no other Legion more suited to the task. The 1st does not take pride in the task, they take pride that they can be relied on to do the task whatever comes. "Loyalty is its own reward!"
The Angels are what Space Marines are supposed to be. They’re the blueprint, others may have their own ways of war but nobody will ever destroy the enemy as completely as the 1st.
@@judgemanny9316 It’s possible to survive and escape from the World Eaters, The Night Lords aren’t good for anything other than terrorizing civvies into submission. The Angels don’t leave any evidence their enemy existed. They don’t fight their enemies they erase them. Go ask the Rangdan.
@@judgemanny9316 also Russ, Mortarion, Perturabo, Ferrus, Logar. Technically any primarch that gives that order. But many fans will only acknowledge their groups!
Russ will make your death grand, messy, and extremely public. Unless it is the lost legions (which we dont know that Russ had part in) Russ is the Emperors official kill-order. The Lion will delete not just you, but your history and any record of your factions existence. An executioner is a public figure, The Lion is a black-bag man. Delete without a trace. This is why the two Legions are so alike jet different, and why they are such great rivals/friends/foes.
Don't forget that Russ was only dispatched by Big E to grab the Thousand Sons and bring them to Terra, it was the Warmaster's machinations that burned Prospero. Additionally, there is some supposition that marines from the missing two legions were included in the rest maybe in the Ultramarine's at least. This all lends to the idea of Russ and threat paired with rehabilitation. The enemies that Big E wants erased from existence and history he sends the 1st.
The Lion and the First Legion are everything, they have aspects of every legion that they originated. Dorn and the VII may be the Emperor’s Praetorians, but the I Legion are the *EMPEROR’S* Legion. I love the Hexagrammaton too. Such a great novel. The LE is just gorgeous.
The Lion honestly strikes me as almost more like his father than any of the other Primarchs, which is both a good thing and a bad thing. All the martial prowess, brilliance, and loyalty to humanity, but unconsciously often cold and distant, too removed and too secretive sometimes for their own good. Beautiful in aspect, but cold and capable of sudden and terrible brutality. They even made the same fatal mistake, that of compassion and desire to forgive the betrayal of those they loved most. The other Primarchs had different strengths and aspects of their father enhanced, but The Lion most closely resembles his true nature in my opinion. The fact that he is the Emperor's exterminator says as much about the Big E as it does about him. Men who hold compassion and love deep in their hearts, but who hold also onto a coldness and decisiveness that allows them to do what they feel needs to be done for the sake of the future. Love the reading, Rho, the Lion is one of my favorites and one I'm eager to see returned sooner rather than later. Having him and the Wolf King side by side in battle against the tides of Chaos would be a fan dream come true someday.
I agree. They seemed to stress that particular "idea", for lack of a better word, in the book as well. I remember a passage that went something like, paraphrasing here "The Lion was . His brothers were just mere copies of the emperors grand design but he was the original." Also, if I'm remembering correctly I don't think it was the legionnaire who spoke those words but rather it was part of the Lion's internal dialogue.. Naturally though I could be a bit off so take it with a grain of salt but that part stuck with me because of emphasis they placed on him being .
Completely I love the lion but he doesn’t understand his marines, like the time he killed his chaplain that scene left me shoke. He’s got a charismatic front which I love but underneath he struggles to relate/understand people just like the emps sometimes.
@@Dreadbringer I completely agree. Have you read the moment I’m talking about? It’s quite ironic since the Chaplin was talking to lion on breaking vows to his father. So it’s less he was disloyal and my trying to keep the lion on the right Path. The lion later regrets his outburst at killing the Chaplin, as he realised he misinterpreted the situation. It’s really fun it’s in a short story but then he talks about it again in one of the mainline HH novels.
This seems like it still sets the lion as the monster hunter or answer to larger threats. Ordo xenos style (rangdan xenocides?), where as the wolves are more akin to ordo hereticus. Being the warning against traitors.
Lion is a knight if you think about it. So when a knight is needed where you think is proper for a knight to fight? Clearly its outside forces because a knight fights for his people.
My favorite moment of the book is when the lion is fighting the main xenos that started the incursion. That bastard thought he was going to escape by throwing a grenade but the lion grabs the hand holding it and it detonates only leaving a shadow of the xenos on the wall. I can picture it so well and it's fucking metal!
Well, I mean the Emperor himself told the Lion that he and his legion were his delete button, in that very book. So that part was not from a Legionaries perspective.
I do like this contrast. The first to obtain victory no matter how dishonourable and not to speak of it. To do what needs to be done no matter the reason. It explains their love of secrets and understandable why it was the first one made. While the wolves are a threat to deter disobedience in the first place. The russ and the wolves have honour and a conscience are a symbol of the imperium honour and violence and able to adapt to take down any foe. Same job, different roles both are needed.
If GW gives Girlyman his brothers back they would have to ramp up the grimdark of the Imperium even more, or else the Imperium would steamroller over its enemies. Then all the other players would start to complain as well. Eldar players would demand to have Ynnaed in the setting, Chaos players more warp rifts and the Chaos Primarchs finally doing something other then twiddle their thumbs for 10 millennia, Necron players the Ctan released? God knows what the Tau and Tyrannid players would want, but something major cataclysmic as well. As it was to bring 1 primarch back into the setting Cadia had to fall, an Eldar faction had to be created, a massive warprift across the entire galaxy and lord knows how many other disasters to befall the Imperium. I shudder to think what bringing a 2nd Primarch would cost the Imperium.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 loss of mars Loss of god knows how many chapters Or maybe they pit the dark angels and their successors against luther and his fallen army resulting in devastating losses for the angels thus requiring the aid of their primarch Where guilliman was needed ti aid the wider imperium I believe the Lion will be needed to take care of the angels "personal agenda" much to his dissmay and probably batshit fury that his sons have been playing a game of witch hunting for the last 10 millenias
@@sajadhoxhaj6603 You know, when I heard that Luther had escaped and was gathering an army of Fallen around him it immediately occurred to me how to bring back the Lion in a Grimdark way. Have Luther and his Fallen move against the Rock, and for the DA and the other Unforgiven to fight them every tooth and nail of course. But while the Unforgiven think Luther and the Fallen want to destroy them, what Luther really wants is to only awake the Lion and beg him for forgiveness for him and the Fallen. But since the Dark Angels don't know that the Lion sleeps somewhere on the Rock they will fight Luther and get a whole lot of Dark Angels, their successors and Fallen killed for nothing. Except the amusement of Dark Gods of course. If I were GW, THAT would be my storyline to bring the Lion back.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 since he was freed by demons I doubt luther will actually have command of his own body and soul but it would truly be a nice touch to see the fallen fight against the angels and with demonic incursions happening all around them probably a few might even join arms against a common enemy. (This probably isnt grimdark enough but anyway lol) And GW wills it we might even see cypher reveal his true identity and motives confronting luther if luther or whoever resides in his head finds the lion's chamber. But me prolly need to wait another decade or smth lmao
I agree this seems like a good bit of legion pride here. I don't see the Lion's role (from this segment) to be a replacement of Russ. I see it as Russ being the symbol of Imperial Sanction. He is the boogeyman that comes after you if you don't behave. Russ is the weapon used when it is important that the sanction is public and well known. Russ acts like a sword of Damocles. The Lion on the other hand is the hidden blade whos missions are unknown by all. The first legion are the exterminators used when no trace of an enemy should remain. I see that as two completely different roles that could not be managed by the same person/legion.
With regards, to the last question if any other legion could be the exterminators. I don't think they could. The World Eaters are way too loud for the deed to remain hidden. The Blood Angels, the Luna Wolfs and the Emperor's children have too much warrior pride and celebration of deeds to keep stuff secret. The Death Guard might have filled the role, but they still doesn't seem that suited for it in my opinion.
I love the fact that Dark angels are basically introverted knights that have are trusted with advance weaponry. Hearing 👂 their true purpose of being the emperor's exterminator is very fitting 👌. This bring more lore into the table and also noticed the Lion in term of personality, he is very close to his father because they both similar traits that they both care about humanity but are cold and distant while capable of being cruel and on top of that they both have someone close but eventually betrayed by that same person.
That might actually explain why the Emperor only ever gave him permission to discipline Primarchs like Angron and Magnus but was never given the authority to actually execute them.
Exactly. His biased really annoys me when he covers thousand sons, space wolves, or dark angels. I literally stopped listening when he pretty much started defending Russ. Lion El Johnson wouldnt need help from the sisters of silence to attack prospero. Russ was also manipulated like the dumb dog he is.
@@Jesseleeg I agree. Although the piece was well discussed on, it isn't fair to disregard a statement simply because it's from a Legionarie or a Custodes. There's a reason the author brings up these points. If we were to only regard points made by the Emperor or even the Primarchs, then the entirety of the lore would only be a dinner party with chatter in a hall.
Since death was an unknown to the primarchs it makes sense only the lion would be responsible for the erasure of the 2 missing primarchs. His legion have weapons that kill not just the body but the soul.
Going by the Lion as he was portrayed in the first horus heresy's novel about the dark angels I would say yes, he is the excecutioner. He seems cold in a way that enables him to simply sacrifice 99 to save a 100 without a second thought. And perhaps that's why he's socially inept. On purpose.
The Dark Angels got me into 40k and I love their old legion colors, I am currently painting primaris army of a Dark Angels successor chapter, the consecrators.
No Legion had the discipline and strength of character to use the Dreadwing weapons and not abuse them, fall into a feeling of Legion superiority, or just misuse them outright. Non were has Loyal as the Dark Angels Legion, for better or worse, the Dark Angels they did their duty, no questions asked. I think that's part of the reason they were made so good at keeping secrets. The other Legions were just too volatile, too proud or too boastful to be able to do what the Dark Angels did.
I think Russ is a gene manipulated dog. Loyal by his gene craft role. Purposefully kept separate on his own world to grow the separation from his would be targets "the other primarchs and their legions". The Lion is hardened against chaos taint and by his gene craft role, the Watcher in the Dark. The Dark Angel. An angel that will do the destroying and ruin needed to advance his fathers kingdom. But Russ was of a special purpose. Obfuscated and separated to bread an Alpha Male to hold in reserve for the purpose of executing turn coats. I think you are right. Russ is the "Executioner" but he has to be given the command to do so. The Emperor lets the Lion roam. The Dark Angel persecutes his fathers vision by guidance of his own vision. He is not questioned or ordered. In the same book, in the prologe, when the Lion asks for guidance. The Emperor says "Where you must...". He didn't give an order. He wants his Lion doing what its instincts tell it too. Russ is a Wolf, and the Lion is a Lion. Its in the name.
the way I view the Death Guard is as the legion that will fight the battles which others would consider to not be worth it. They will persevere through any horrible conditions, slogging their way through a fight until it is done. Where another legion might see it as not worth the time, energy and resources, the Death Guard will push through and win.
Lion El'Jonson was regarded as the most pragmatic and ruthlessly efficient commander of the Great Crusade. His was the task of rooting out those threats which the Imperium most feared, and he undertook it with peerless valour. During the Great Crusade, under his command, the remorseless Dark Angels acted not for glory and honours but only for victory, to vanquish their foes and to leave the enemies of Mankind in quiet and forgotten ruin.
In a way, i see them like this: Space Wolves are commissars- loud, threatening, made to be seen and always ready to blam the unruly. Dark Angels are Assassins- lethal, descreet, armed with crazy gear and not just loyal, but completly obedient, annihilating targets other forces have no idea about. Both have their place in Imperium.
I always figured the Raven Guar would be assassins, considering they are the least in number, are based around guerrilla warefare and stealth ops. Actually they assassinate alot of their targets vs leading campagins. DA are basically just the legion equivalent of a nuke. Which I guess is kinda like the eversor assassin...nevermind lol
The roles of the loyal legions rarely overlap in any significant way, they each have their niches. I don't see the conflict or overlap in the Space Wolves and Dark Angels roles, they each have their specialty and a role suited to that specialty.
I am still reading the book and have read past the point you discussed. I interrupt it as this, when the Emperor began his Great Crusade the galaxy was filled to the brim with alien horrors that used advanced biological and even horrific psychic tech ( i.e. the Khrave ). The first were that legion that faced these horrors and some were so disturbing that they could not be recorded or the existance of such horrors could be known. So, the Lion and the first are the Emperors exterminators, when the Emperor needs something to be ash and forgotten the first are his weapon of choice. But I cannot wait to hear your review on the book.
You know March last year my brother pre-ordered this for me for my birthday and I was seriously worried I may be the only one to read this, because it is a great and I didn't see a soul talking about it.
I absolutely love this video, the Lion is one of my favourite Primarchs! I would love to see a video where you list all the roles of the Primarchs, why were each of them made? My big headcanon was always that the Second Primarch was designed to battle in the Eternal War, the opponent he was designed to fight was Chaos itself, Psyker or Warp dependant Empires being his secondary opponents. And as such, the Second Primarch is a master of resource monopolization and Galaxy wide attrition Warfare. He and the Lion complement each other, and would fit well in the modern day Imperium. One manages the rolling defence of the Imperium's "Wall of Guns" and the efficient usage of resources, the other brings to heel the discontent and cleanses corruption from entire worlds.
Going by the fact the Dark Angels headed up the Rangdan Xenocides I think it’s safe to say Johnson was the big E’s exterminator. Throughout the history of the Lion and the 1st it’s always said how Johnson was such an unstoppable genius on the battle field, we’ve just not had enough written lore to see for our selves why he’s so revived as such. So yes you’re right we do need more crusade era novels telling us why he was such a top tier bad ass, and why Johnson was so pissed he lost out to Horus when the Emperor bowed out. He’s definitely a character I’d love to read more about even though I’m a proud Space Wolf player too
There was also that the Emperor made Perturabo his Lord of Iron. Believing he could shoulder all the harshest trials and difficult duties. Too bad Perturabo's constant rationalizing of everything led him to believe otherwise, thinking they were all tests and that he wasn't good enough, unable to see the trust placed in him.
@@sirdanthechipwright821 well a big Diesel engine requires more oil than a golf cart’s motor. Perturabo fought in some of the worst conditions and he needed to be treated accordingly. He should’ve been drawing in recruits from every possible world he could and had his marines take time off for extensive R&R (so like a week or two every 6 months)
Love the video. My only dispute is we don't know the wolves were sent after the lost legions. It's actually heavily implied they were destroyed during the rangdan wars
We need a good long interaction between the emperor and Sangunius, we haven’t gotten much interaction and time is running out as his death looms closer in the heresy series
They weren't unleashed against Magnus in the sense of execution... not by the Emperor. The 1st legion cares not for who their blades fall upon; if the Emperor deems it so, no matter the cost it will be done.
The Lion Is who you Sent to leave nothing but ashes of planets and civilizations, he wont broke no compromise and show no mercy, the Wolf Is who you Sent to make the imperium proud in wars to boast about. Both aré my personal favourites and i long for they to go on a brutal wild hunt in the Galaxy, Guilliman could take the brake.
There is a bit more to the passage that you read that helps give some more color to the distinction between the Lion and Russ. The part where it explains the reasoning behind why a conqueror would need their adversaries utterly erased from history helps give more context and credence to the role of the Lion actually being the exterminator. I love Russ in some ways specifically because of his code of honor, and while he wouldn’t flinch at destroying anything if ordered to, I don’t see him methodically eradicating every trace of the enemy and then also keeping the secrets of the campaign. His legions actions are so well known through the lore it would be hard to see the wolves commit like that and no one knows the reason or outcome. My thinking anyway... cheers Rho!
The only thing I’d question was the emperor not contemplating treachery. I honestly can’t remember where it was included, but me and and mates remember reading when malchador was at a woman’s bedside (might have been an audio book) She mentioned essentially how can the emperor be amazing when the heresy is happening, with billions dying every day. If even he couldn’t see this coming, can we even win. Malchador asked if he trusted her, and in her final moments, told her the heresy was always meant to happen. It was always the endgame to have a civil war. It was why he so blatantly treated some sons much better than others, and why each primarch had a almost a duplicate of sorts (Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors or Raven Guard and Night Lords) It was however the interference of the chaos gods that accelerated the final scenario, forcing it to happen before they were truly ready for it. That’s why it’s been so hard for them, and why the teams are not as originally intended. I like this in that it keeps the Emperors persons of plans within plans and has an eons long endgame but still can be out smarted by literal gods.
I agree, the 1st were made to annihilate heretic/xenos civilizations who had to be wiped from memory. Russ and the 6th were made for the sanction of their fellow Astartes. However this does (to me) raise the question that perhaps the 1st were involved in removing the unknown primarchs and their legions as they were wiped from memory.
One thing I know is it the space wolves turned up to destroy the world eaters, they’d be in for one hell of a fight. Personally I think the world eaters would butcher them to a man.
I love the space knight aesthetic so the ancient wargear just makes the DA that much cooler for me. The transition from the Great Crusade to 40k reminds me of the fall of Numenor in the Silmarillion, and how so much has been lost by the third age. Of course this is Warhammer so instead of gems and mithril we're talking plasma and phosphex. I don't imagine them as better at anything necessarily compared to other legions, except that the 1st legion was a total package deal. If the Ultramarines are like the perfect multi-tool, the Dark Angels are like a full toolbox, and many of the other legions are like a purpose designed tool for a specific job. You do often see the 1st legion operating independently in long, remote campaigns. One thing that isn't quite clear to me is if the organization of the first legion has more to do with the culture the Lion picked up on Caliban or with the Emperors designs for what I've seen commonly referred to as "the proto-legion".
11:23 : I still think that the narrator was correct about the role of the Wolves. They were never meant to be 'unleashed' on Magnus, they were told to make an arrest and bring him back to Terra... a task at which they failed, spectacularly. The Wolves shouldn't have been 'unleashed' because Russ is unreliable - he does damn stupid things like declare his Rune Priests to 'not be psykers', to attack Angron (and get his butt kicked), to attack the Lion (and get his butt kicked), to try to kill Magnus (he was ordered by the Emperor to make an arrest, yet let Horus convince him to do something else) and to attack Horus (and get his butt kicked). The *threat* of the Wolves was their primary role, but the more times that Russ tried to put it into action then the more it became apparent that he couldn't back up his words. The Angels were the ones who got results!
This novel reinforced the opinion that the Lion is not only an absolute beast in combat but also as a commander, and merges the two seamlessly. Also interested to here what your take is on the passages where he talks to the emperor and how he sees him.
I haven't read this novel yet, but I always theorized that the legions were paired up to share roles, and they just happened to break down evenly between Loyalist and Traitor. The Legion that paired up most with the Dark Angels are the Luna Wolves. They were the most strategic legions, specializing in winning wars with quick and decisive spear tip strikes. They embraced specialized squads and units, using each and every tool at their disposal, giving them flexibility that other legions lacked. The Lion and Horus were brilliant tacticians, and also two of the most ambitious primarchs. As for the others? Word Bearers and Ultramarines: Occupational forces. These chapters were the best and most efficient in converting conquered planets into valuable members of the Imperium. Before turning traitor, the Word Bearers created paradise worlds with fanatically loyal populations, and Guilliman was a master of efficiency and creating systems and organization. Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors: siege warfare and defensive fortifications. Obvious here, but these are the guys that you call when you want to tear something down or build something up. Death guard and Salamanders: hostile environment specialists and asymmetric warfare. These guys are the toughest of the tough, and will go through hell and back to get the job done with never a backward step. Raven Guard and Alpha Legion: intelligence gathering and stealth/ambush missions. You need some one to sneak in somewhere, sabotage something, or launch a surprise attack? These are your guys. Night Lords and White Scars: hit and run guerrilla warfare. They are fast, hit hard, and move before they are countered. They sow fear and confusion as they go, maximizing their mobility to keep their opponents guessing where they will strike next Blood Angels and World Eaters: shock troopers. You need some one to cut a bloody path through the enemy and cripple their moral in the process? These are your butchers. Iron Hands and Emperor's Children: precision and coordinated warfare. You need a Legion who can perfectly time an assault or pull off complicated maneuvers, often in tandem with other forces? Its what they do. They obsess over perfection and precision, so no one else does it better. Thousand Sons and ?: I theorize that one of the missing legions paired with the Thousand sons. It was most likely their out of control psychic ability that caused their primarch to be put down, and parts of the Legion to be filtered into the Ultramarines. Space Wolves and ?: again I theorize that one of the missing legions was the match to the Space Wolves. Only they were horribly mutated and out of control, and so they were put down. Probably a Legion of furry chibi cat lady's. The Emperor was so embarrassed all records had to be erased. Lol. Just my opinions and theories. Many pair some differently, but this is how I organized the legions by their behaviors and tactics.
Personally from my understanding at least I would actually pair up the Space Wolves and the World Eaters with this break down since they are both berserkers but different type of berserkers. I get the argument of the Blood Angels though they were not infected with the Black Rage until after Sanguineous fell. Then again also worth mentioning what the World Eaters became after meeting Angron was not what the Emperor intended for them to be when he formed them and the same could be said for Angron after being forced to take the Butcher's Nails. Not to mention the way the Emperor handled Angron when he was discovered was not the greatest either.
@@si1verg3cko Actually in some of the novels, the black rage was something the legion was experiencing even before Sanguinius fell. In fact it worried the hell out of Sanguinius and was something he struggled to hide from the other primarchs. Even Horus, whom he trusted implicitly at the time. And I agree about Angron. That is what makes him so tragic. The nails robbed him of his potential, possibly to be as noble and respected as Sanguinius himself. Both Legions have innate blood lust. One gives in to it, and the other struggles against it. I don't see the Space Wolves the same way. They cultivate the persona sure, but in battle they tend to be a lot more crafty than mindless rage fueled berserker. Fierce sure, but also clever. It always seems like they retain their self control. The Blood Angels struggle with that. Thats why I see them as matching with the World Eaters more. Plus there is Khorne's obvious interest in them as well.
@@BonzaiBomber Agreed that the Space Wolves certainly work at their self control so sort of have a directed fury and they certainly purge anyone that can't do it. I knew the Blood Angels were having issues before the fall of Sanguinius though I thought more than anything it was the Red Thirst that was causing the issues at that point.
The Lion organized the hexagrammaton, we know deathwing and ravenwing, terminators and mobility, respectively. We also have: Ironwing: mechanized, tanks and artillery Firewing: asymmetric, infrastructure warfare Stormwing: assault, breech, defence-in-depth. And more so than any other legion, The Dreadwing. Legion Destroyer Squads are exterminators. Every legion has some, but every other legion is uncomfortable with using them beyond raw necessity. The Lion organized an entire wing of the legion to be this uniquely uncomfortable type of warfare, an entire wing of Legion Destroyers. No wonder he secure to invade Macragge.
Would love to see the Black Library give us a story about taking Sedna. This and the novel of Alpharius should shed more light on the question. No other force in the Imperium possesses the archaeotech of the 1st (well legally sanctioned by the Emperor (beloved by all))
to be fair they were very helpful, they get a hard time for it but they showed up, chased away the CSM present, destroyed a strategic location that the Guard honestly wouldn't have been able to hold in the long term and then sent a successor chapter to go help when they heard that more enemies showed up at Vraks.
@@ravanpee1325 I mean, whats a more effective use of a chapters resources, hunting down the Chaos Warband they drove away or helping a Guardsmen Regiment with a threat they can handle in a method of war that they specialise in?
@@LCliffhanger Vrask was a major blow for the Imperium and many Space Marines lost their life in the end - more as needed. From an utilitarian perspective they fucked up. That was a point in time where achieving victory was easy in comparison to later when the CSM arrived. You can't fight always in your comfort zone
@@ravanpee1325 The Dark Angels taking Vraks wouldnt have been outside of their comfort zone, it would have simply been the less efficient choice, they cant see the future, they made the more effective decision at the time, you can only blame hindsight once the shits hit the fan. Think about it, if a Jungle World rebelled and the Catachan Jungle Fighters were there to supress the rebels, then, a chaos warband shows up and things look pretty grim, but, the Dark Angels show up and cause the CSM to flee, now, the Dark Angels have 2 choices, stay and help the Jungles finish a war that they could easily win on their own, or hunt down a fleeing warband of CSM while the Catachan Jungle Fighters fight in their ideal environment. Cmon, Vraks was the kind of war that Krieg was known for. I dont know how much more I can simplify it.
The way I see it, the Lion and the DA's are the final solution for external threats to the Imperium, threats that need to be completely scoured from existence. The Lion was a hunter of mutants and xenos beasts from childhood, and continued to do the same as the Lord of the 1st. If the Lion were to awaken in 40k, I would see him and his reformed legion pairing well with the missions of the Ordo Xenos and the Deathwatch. On the other hand, Russ and his sons exist as a counter to the greatest internal threat to the Imperium: Traitor Astartes. When a primarch and his legion turn from the Emperor's light, then they are destroyed wholesale by the Rout. The Lion exterminates beasts beyond his master's walls. The Wolf executes traitorous dogs within them.
I think it’s interesting that the Dark Angels may have been the best equipped to handle Tyranids since they know to go for the biggest monsters rather than fight attritionally like the Ultramarines tried
Sounds like this was the Emperor’s legion of “exterminating” the space marines when the great crusade was finished like he did with the thunder warriors
As you point out it is always important to understand the source or perspective within the Heresy Stories. A perfect case of.. "We see the world not as it is, but as we are." Anais Nin
His upbringing on Caliban probably gave the Lion a very distinct view on what should and shouldn’t be allowed to exist, and the lengths that are needed for that. Giving him a legion of Astartes with access to the most dangerous weapons known to humanity seems like a happy coincidence for the Emperor.
You missed the second conversation between the lion and the emperor where he essentially views them as his ‘exterminators’. This is a similar view to that shared by aravaine but from a different perspective. I thought your vid was great as always!
It’s a great read, can’t wait to see the next video. Being I to the lore I don’t recall a book or passage where it states “Russ” was sent against the two missing primarchs. Russ speaks cryptically on occasion but whenever the two missing primarchs are mentioned Russ never is. In the meeting between Horus and Malcador and Malcador and Dorn there is never a mention of Russ being involved in their fates.
Although it is quite amusing imagining frail little Malcador taking big strong Horus across his knee and spanking him like a misbehaving 4 year old. That was an epic read, and cemented my opinion that Malcador was a beast among bad asses and had balls the size of a Cadian guardsman's loyalty.
It's also worth noting there's a difference between executioner and exterminator. One is to make an example of, the other is tantamount to little more than genocide
Technically I wouldnt refer to the Wings as Orders. An Order can be a synonym for company, like how Corswain was master of the 9th Order. You then have the Wings of the Hexagrammaton and the Orders of the Hekatonystika which would each have their own specialised knowledge (similar to the deathwatch) and would form advisory bodies for commanders if their knowledge was needed. The Order of Broken Claw for example was formed after the Rangdan Xenocides and holds the only full and complete accounting of that war as well as access to a detailed catalogue of anatomical data and are basically Rangda specialists.
How quickly everyone has forgotten that Lion wanted, almost feverishly, to be chosen Warmaster after Horus' betrayal was unveiled, but not all of the Traitors yet joined him. He sent the great siege engines he has captured from Horus, to Perturabo, in hopes of swaying him to acknowledge himself as the next Warmaster. Don't get me wrong, I adore the Lion, he is in my top three along with Corax and the Khan, but he needs the praise and the glory, just not in the way of his brothers.
Pretty sure Russ was told to capture and bring back Magnus to Terra but Horus intercepted him. He told him the Emperor changed his mind to just kill everything. Russ believed him because he didn't know Horus has already turned at this point. A lot of issues during Horus Heresy because long range communication in WH40K is shit at the best of times.
The first time I was this early, Lion wasn't sleeping beauty, Luthor was sane and there weren't three splinter factions of the Angels and Caliban was still a world not just a mass of space rocks.
I think the wolves are like the 8th, sent to make a statement. "Stay in line, or else" as when the wolves are sent, they are loud and brash. But the angels are quiet, when an enemy needs to be erased and kept hidden for all time, like the thunder warriors. The 2nd and 11th are still somewhat talked about, and tbh the tactic worked, sanguinis was afraid of his own legion following the same fate. Whereas if it was the lion, the 2nd and 11th would have been gone with no explanation. I also feel like the dark angels weren't designed to fight fellow astartes. They are honourable to a fault, whereas the wolves have 0 mercy and will fight dirty and excell at fighting their own (check wolf's bane)
Just a thought, but this reminded me of confrontation between Konrad and Magnus over a forbidden library. Lion would have sided with Konrad, which is interesting when we know that Magnus thought highly of the Lion even considering him as able to pursuit his quest of knowledge. Magnus again failing to consider a bigger picture.
Lion needs to wake up and wipe lords of terra out of existence too. Well malacador was right, Primarchs needed some older sisters to pat on their head and make cookies to stop brotherly fights lol
Here we go . A biased account . Firstly russ exterminating the one of the lost primarchs is pure speculation bordering on fan fiction , secondly the wolves were sent to prospero to arrest magnus same as he was sent to arrest angron . His role is more the emperors goaler .
Book claims Russ fights for honor, and Rho's like "No, I love Russ, but the dude is a scoundrel". Just take a compliment from a Dark Angel for once, wolfie.
I think the main difference between their titles as executioner and exterminator lies in the fact the executions are typicaly public as a show of what happens to those that don't follow the established order. Russ is a threat, not an empty threat but i think the emperor gets more use out of the fear people have of the executioner rather than the executions themselves. exterminations however are usually not public what do you do when a planet no longer respects you or fears you? you just have to cut your losses kill them and move on that is what the lion is for he carries out these exterminations many of them in secret so that the fact that a planet was no longer afraid of the imperium does not ever become public knowledge. in my opinion of course.
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature - a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more... something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity along in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers."
Malcador the Sigilite
The first legion: When you need World Eaters-levels of murder, but with the ability to stop at a moment's notice.
Nah that's the Blood Angels.. oh wait, you said able to stop.. nevermind
And the ability to keep it secret while removing all traces.
Correction! The First Legion: Predecessors to the Exterminatus and the Imperial Inquisition.
If you need it killed, its memory erased and its worlds Glassed
Send the FIRST.
Want someone to be made an example of? Send the Wolves
Want someone gone permanently?
Send the Angels
The Lion and Leman are both executioners, merely that Leman is used when the result needs to be known and the Lion is used when no memory is wanted. The Lion gets a result, the Wolves get a result and a *message*.
Agreed.
This cousin got It.
Not really though. It was Russ who exterminated the lost legions and there is no 'message', it was all expunged. There are only supressed rumours. Exaclty like you described Lion would be used
@@janmarkiewicz1889 what aré you going on about neophyte? Thats just fan theory, dont be such a Runt, you would shame the Wolf who dont need to try to discredit others to boast about victorys.
@@janmarkiewicz1889 We don't have canon confirmation, that Russ was involved. And both him and the Lion was heavily involved in the Rangdan wars, where one of the lost legions supposedly varnished.
This book was the truest representation of the Dark Angels. You cannot change my mind.
‘The First Legion fights out of duty, not for the accolades we expect to receive. Loyalty. Honour. These are virtues best measured by a warrior’s brothers, and not to be judged second-hand by those who never held a blade by their side. Centuries from now, the actions of the First will be unpicked by scholars and I do not doubt that we will be judged harshly. They will never know of our valour, of the sacrifices we made for my father’s ideal. They cannot. They would not thank us for the blood we spilled upon our hands in their name. But in our hearts, in the remembrances of our own, we will know the truth - we did our duty. That is all the justification we seek and it is sufficient. We are as the Emperor made us - weapons, created for this bloody time, and as weapons we can ask nothing more of Him than that.’ - The Lion
That passage tells me that the First were the ones to annihilate the lost and the forgotten.
And then Luther happened.
@@AnshumanKantiBose Always felt like they used his character as an example of how regular humans are envious of the astartes.
I always imagined the dark angels knowing full well that they were merely weapons of war, a means to an end, not some chosen sons of the Emperor. This is why the Emperor doesn't worry about the lion betraying him, because he already knows and accepts what he is
Lion : what is my purpose father?
Big E : you see that planet son?
Lion : yes father.
Big E : i dont wanna.
Lion : yes father.
Most underrated comment here!
The Lion would have pushed the spear all the way in.
Without a doubt, wouldn't even hesitate.
All too true, and would took not shame nor pride about It
It would be just another task in his long list of to do things
lol no doubt. Thats what the novel meant by "Russ' honor would not abide" i think.
Probably all of the loyalist Primarchs apart from Russ would’ve.
I love how the lions primarch book added so much for the lore of the first. Finally we can see the glory purpose of the dark angels instead of the tired fallen troupe
Azrael vs Kharn is a great piece of lore as well
@@erichoughton4128 The hole Pandorax story is great, and not enough people know about it!
@@erichoughton4128 wait Azrael fought kharn? When?
@@Grayfox251 I need to know this as well
@@Grayfox251 Trials of Azrael
The emperor gave them so much dark age of technology stuff. I was shook when I found out they have men of iron and worse.
Kinda puts things into perspective as to why they were held in such regard amongst their peers
The first out there after all, the Angels of death Sent from mankind to all who would opose us, to leave no trace and to make no boast about It, just our duty
They where also an anti mechanicum insurance, a just in case if the treaty of olympus fails
Phospex go Boom Boom! *Happy Dark Angels noices*
They were the Emperor's Bodyguard when the Emperor took to the stars for the first time , looking for his missing sons . So no wonder they got gear and technology entrusted to them that is deemed too dangerous for most to use . So in that point I do agree that the Dark Angels were exterminators and not executioners . And the few stories where the Dreadwing appear proves that theory .
When GW decides to bring back the Lion, will he reform all six of the wings of the Dark Angels? Yay or nay?
I really hope they release a fat Lion in a bathrobe figure...
I would think of all the primarchs he would be the one to remake his legion, besides Dorn. Especially after seeing how shit the imperium has become.
Would say so. He thought it was the perfect legion with the six wings making it up
Hell yeah he would. He would need his legion to function as perfectly as it used to
Aye.
There is no other Legion more suited to the task.
The 1st does not take pride in the task, they take pride that they can be relied on to do the task whatever comes.
"Loyalty is its own reward!"
The Angels are what Space Marines are supposed to be. They’re the blueprint, others may have their own ways of war but nobody will ever destroy the enemy as completely as the 1st.
Curze, angron?
@@judgemanny9316 Difference is, the first legion is capable of following orders.
@@judgemanny9316 It’s possible to survive and escape from the World Eaters, The Night Lords aren’t good for anything other than terrorizing civvies into submission.
The Angels don’t leave any evidence their enemy existed. They don’t fight their enemies they erase them.
Go ask the Rangdan.
Too true
@@judgemanny9316 also Russ, Mortarion, Perturabo, Ferrus, Logar. Technically any primarch that gives that order. But many fans will only acknowledge their groups!
Russ will make your death grand, messy, and extremely public. Unless it is the lost legions (which we dont know that Russ had part in) Russ is the Emperors official kill-order. The Lion will delete not just you, but your history and any record of your factions existence. An executioner is a public figure, The Lion is a black-bag man. Delete without a trace. This is why the two Legions are so alike jet different, and why they are such great rivals/friends/foes.
Fantastic dynamic between the two. I love the interactions and both legions/chapters.
Don't forget that Russ was only dispatched by Big E to grab the Thousand Sons and bring them to Terra, it was the Warmaster's machinations that burned Prospero. Additionally, there is some supposition that marines from the missing two legions were included in the rest maybe in the Ultramarine's at least. This all lends to the idea of Russ and threat paired with rehabilitation. The enemies that Big E wants erased from existence and history he sends the 1st.
The lost Primarchs legioners WERE assimilated in to the Ultramarines, and some in the World Bearers
Same goes for Angron, Leman went to discipline Angron but never had permission to actually kill him.
The Lion and the First Legion are everything, they have aspects of every legion that they originated. Dorn and the VII may be the Emperor’s Praetorians, but the I Legion are the *EMPEROR’S* Legion. I love the Hexagrammaton too. Such a great novel. The LE is just gorgeous.
One of the lost primarchs was written out of history. Perhaps it was the first legion that went against that lost legion.
*Asmodie wants to know your location*
They weren't "lost" until the Lion made it so? 😳
That Primarch was a big fan of "wincest..."
The Lion honestly strikes me as almost more like his father than any of the other Primarchs, which is both a good thing and a bad thing. All the martial prowess, brilliance, and loyalty to humanity, but unconsciously often cold and distant, too removed and too secretive sometimes for their own good. Beautiful in aspect, but cold and capable of sudden and terrible brutality. They even made the same fatal mistake, that of compassion and desire to forgive the betrayal of those they loved most. The other Primarchs had different strengths and aspects of their father enhanced, but The Lion most closely resembles his true nature in my opinion.
The fact that he is the Emperor's exterminator says as much about the Big E as it does about him. Men who hold compassion and love deep in their hearts, but who hold also onto a coldness and decisiveness that allows them to do what they feel needs to be done for the sake of the future.
Love the reading, Rho, the Lion is one of my favorites and one I'm eager to see returned sooner rather than later. Having him and the Wolf King side by side in battle against the tides of Chaos would be a fan dream come true someday.
As a son of the Lion i too await for him AND the Wolf to go full exterminatus extremis on some xenos ir traitor asses.
I agree. They seemed to stress that particular "idea", for lack of a better word, in the book as well. I remember a passage that went something like, paraphrasing here "The Lion was . His brothers were just mere copies of the emperors grand design but he was the original." Also, if I'm remembering correctly I don't think it was the legionnaire who spoke those words but rather it was part of the Lion's internal dialogue.. Naturally though I could be a bit off so take it with a grain of salt but that part stuck with me because of emphasis they placed on him being .
Completely I love the lion but he doesn’t understand his marines, like the time he killed his chaplain that scene left me shoke. He’s got a charismatic front which I love but underneath he struggles to relate/understand people just like the emps sometimes.
@@chrisspink8873 he expects for absolute loyalty and performance of duty without hesitation, he doesnt suffer fools nor insubordination.
@@Dreadbringer I completely agree. Have you read the moment I’m talking about? It’s quite ironic since the Chaplin was talking to lion on breaking vows to his father. So it’s less he was disloyal and my trying to keep the lion on the right Path. The lion later regrets his outburst at killing the Chaplin, as he realised he misinterpreted the situation. It’s really fun it’s in a short story but then he talks about it again in one of the mainline HH novels.
This seems like it still sets the lion as the monster hunter or answer to larger threats. Ordo xenos style (rangdan xenocides?), where as the wolves are more akin to ordo hereticus. Being the warning against traitors.
Lion is a knight if you think about it. So when a knight is needed where you think is proper for a knight to fight? Clearly its outside forces because a knight fights for his people.
Wolves are Ordo Malleus
My favorite moment of the book is when the lion is fighting the main xenos that started the incursion. That bastard thought he was going to escape by throwing a grenade but the lion grabs the hand holding it and it detonates only leaving a shadow of the xenos on the wall. I can picture it so well and it's fucking metal!
I also love how the one xenos tries to mess with the Lions mind, only to get UNO reversed so hard.
Well, I mean the Emperor himself told the Lion that he and his legion were his delete button, in that very book. So that part was not from a Legionaries perspective.
I do like this contrast.
The first to obtain victory no matter how dishonourable and not to speak of it. To do what needs to be done no matter the reason. It explains their love of secrets and understandable why it was the first one made.
While the wolves are a threat to deter disobedience in the first place. The russ and the wolves have honour and a conscience are a symbol of the imperium honour and violence and able to adapt to take down any foe.
Same job, different roles both are needed.
When is someone gonna wake up the sleepyhead? RubMeOff GorillaMan needs his brothers back, he can't do this alone
If GW gives Girlyman his brothers back they would have to ramp up the grimdark of the Imperium even more, or else the Imperium would steamroller over its enemies. Then all the other players would start to complain as well. Eldar players would demand to have Ynnaed in the setting, Chaos players more warp rifts and the Chaos Primarchs finally doing something other then twiddle their thumbs for 10 millennia, Necron players the Ctan released? God knows what the Tau and Tyrannid players would want, but something major cataclysmic as well. As it was to bring 1 primarch back into the setting Cadia had to fall, an Eldar faction had to be created, a massive warprift across the entire galaxy and lord knows how many other disasters to befall the Imperium. I shudder to think what bringing a 2nd Primarch would cost the Imperium.
Reported to Inquisition authorities.
Traitors will feel the wrath of the Lord Commander
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 loss of mars
Loss of god knows how many chapters
Or maybe they pit the dark angels and their successors against luther and his fallen army resulting in devastating losses for the angels thus requiring the aid of their primarch
Where guilliman was needed ti aid the wider imperium I believe the Lion will be needed to take care of the angels "personal agenda" much to his dissmay and probably batshit fury that his sons have been playing a game of witch hunting for the last 10 millenias
@@sajadhoxhaj6603 You know, when I heard that Luther had escaped and was gathering an army of Fallen around him it immediately occurred to me how to bring back the Lion in a Grimdark way. Have Luther and his Fallen move against the Rock, and for the DA and the other Unforgiven to fight them every tooth and nail of course. But while the Unforgiven think Luther and the Fallen want to destroy them, what Luther really wants is to only awake the Lion and beg him for forgiveness for him and the Fallen. But since the Dark Angels don't know that the Lion sleeps somewhere on the Rock they will fight Luther and get a whole lot of Dark Angels, their successors and Fallen killed for nothing. Except the amusement of Dark Gods of course. If I were GW, THAT would be my storyline to bring the Lion back.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 since he was freed by demons I doubt luther will actually have command of his own body and soul but it would truly be a nice touch to see the fallen fight against the angels and with demonic incursions happening all around them probably a few might even join arms against a common enemy. (This probably isnt grimdark enough but anyway lol)
And GW wills it we might even see cypher reveal his true identity and motives confronting luther if luther or whoever resides in his head finds the lion's chamber. But me prolly need to wait another decade or smth lmao
Bolt rounds that literally wipe the target from existence.. time and space... so would that be a D6 or... uh I mean... FOR THE LION!!!!
Brother, get the Psychic-delete-Bolter, the Heavy Psychic-delete-Bolter!
Oh!!! The meme lives!!!!!! Glorious!
You roll to hit thats it. If it hits the target ceases to exist.
I agree this seems like a good bit of legion pride here.
I don't see the Lion's role (from this segment) to be a replacement of Russ. I see it as Russ being the symbol of Imperial Sanction. He is the boogeyman that comes after you if you don't behave. Russ is the weapon used when it is important that the sanction is public and well known. Russ acts like a sword of Damocles.
The Lion on the other hand is the hidden blade whos missions are unknown by all. The first legion are the exterminators used when no trace of an enemy should remain.
I see that as two completely different roles that could not be managed by the same person/legion.
With regards, to the last question if any other legion could be the exterminators. I don't think they could.
The World Eaters are way too loud for the deed to remain hidden.
The Blood Angels, the Luna Wolfs and the Emperor's children have too much warrior pride and celebration of deeds to keep stuff secret.
The Death Guard might have filled the role, but they still doesn't seem that suited for it in my opinion.
I love the fact that Dark angels are basically introverted knights that have are trusted with advance weaponry. Hearing 👂 their true purpose of being the emperor's exterminator is very fitting 👌. This bring more lore into the table and also noticed the Lion in term of personality, he is very close to his father because they both similar traits that they both care about humanity but are cold and distant while capable of being cruel and on top of that they both have someone close but eventually betrayed by that same person.
This is how I see it:
The Space Wolves are the enforcers
The Dark Angels are the destroyers
"What's that?"
The cage shakes.
"Honestly, I don't know."
Russ is there to discipline his brothers, the Lion is for when they are beyond redemption
That might actually explain why the Emperor only ever gave him permission to discipline Primarchs like Angron and Magnus but was never given the authority to actually execute them.
Yet he failed at doing that
@@LCliffhanger Also makes sense why the one time Russ was supposed to do his job against Horus he failed.
Never confirmed Russ wiped out both the lost Primarchs.
I think it was confirmed that he didn't, didn't the primarchs doubt if death was a possibility for thier kind, by any ordinareans
Exactly. His biased really annoys me when he covers thousand sons, space wolves, or dark angels. I literally stopped listening when he pretty much started defending Russ. Lion El Johnson wouldnt need help from the sisters of silence to attack prospero. Russ was also manipulated like the dumb dog he is.
@@Jesseleeg I agree. Although the piece was well discussed on, it isn't fair to disregard a statement simply because it's from a Legionarie or a Custodes. There's a reason the author brings up these points. If we were to only regard points made by the Emperor or even the Primarchs, then the entirety of the lore would only be a dinner party with chatter in a hall.
Since death was an unknown to the primarchs it makes sense only the lion would be responsible for the erasure of the 2 missing primarchs. His legion have weapons that kill not just the body but the soul.
Going by the Lion as he was portrayed in the first horus heresy's novel about the dark angels I would say yes, he is the excecutioner. He seems cold in a way that enables him to simply sacrifice 99 to save a 100 without a second thought. And perhaps that's why he's socially inept. On purpose.
Leman is the enforcer and The Lion is the delete button, both have different roles
Leman: When you need to send a "Don't Fuck with me" message.
Lion: When you need something so dead, even it's name disappears.
Lemen when you give a slap on the wrist
Lion when... uh i hear knocking on my door brb
I'm here to kick ass and chew gum, and I'm all outta gum - Lion el'Johnson
I brought Phospex gifts! - The Lion
@@setaripantheon8801 ah the smell of traitor and xenos burning into ashes c:
"I got sword of steel. Come get some." - Lion probably.
After a super long day sipping a single malt and listening to Wolf Lord Rho talk about my favorite Legion. What more can I say? Life is good.
This doesn't take in the fact that the forgeworld book also backs up the fact they were the real exterminators.
Well he did go around and delete all the traitor legions home planets when he could not reach Terra during the Heresy.
Consiracy Theory: in that repository, the Dark Angels have one of Vulcan’s lost artifact weapons!
I can get behind this conspiracy.
Further proof they are traitors and now thieves. ;)
Also the Emperor's executioners are and always will be the sons of Russ.
Great video as always!
Nah the Blood Ravens have the rest
@@leonidas8513 also not unlikely
It'd be funnier if they just had Vulcan instead, lol
Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne, Milk for the Khorne Flakes
This made me chuckle loudly.
The Dark Angels got me into 40k and I love their old legion colors, I am currently painting primaris army of a Dark Angels successor chapter, the consecrators.
I'm about to buy my first army. Dark angels it is
I welcome the new chapter masters then.
No Legion had the discipline and strength of character to use the Dreadwing weapons and not abuse them, fall into a feeling of Legion superiority, or just misuse them outright. Non were has Loyal as the Dark Angels Legion, for better or worse, the Dark Angels they did their duty, no questions asked. I think that's part of the reason they were made so good at keeping secrets. The other Legions were just too volatile, too proud or too boastful to be able to do what the Dark Angels did.
True.
You’ll see the Lions role when he comes back and finds Guilliman playing Emperor 😆😆😆😆
I can’t wait🤘🏻
I think Russ is a gene manipulated dog. Loyal by his gene craft role. Purposefully kept separate on his own world to grow the separation from his would be targets "the other primarchs and their legions". The Lion is hardened against chaos taint and by his gene craft role, the Watcher in the Dark. The Dark Angel. An angel that will do the destroying and ruin needed to advance his fathers kingdom. But Russ was of a special purpose. Obfuscated and separated to bread an Alpha Male to hold in reserve for the purpose of executing turn coats. I think you are right. Russ is the "Executioner" but he has to be given the command to do so. The Emperor lets the Lion roam. The Dark Angel persecutes his fathers vision by guidance of his own vision. He is not questioned or ordered. In the same book, in the prologe, when the Lion asks for guidance. The Emperor says "Where you must...". He didn't give an order. He wants his Lion doing what its instincts tell it too. Russ is a Wolf, and the Lion is a Lion. Its in the name.
Cant agree More.
I love what’s in the vaults, scary weapons. Don’t mess with the first.
the way I view the Death Guard is as the legion that will fight the battles which others would consider to not be worth it. They will persevere through any horrible conditions, slogging their way through a fight until it is done. Where another legion might see it as not worth the time, energy and resources, the Death Guard will push through and win.
Lion El'Jonson was regarded as the most pragmatic and ruthlessly efficient commander of the Great Crusade. His was the task of rooting out those threats which the Imperium most feared, and he undertook it with peerless valour. During the Great Crusade, under his command, the remorseless Dark Angels acted not for glory and honours but only for victory, to vanquish their foes and to leave the enemies of Mankind in quiet and forgotten ruin.
In a way, i see them like this: Space Wolves are commissars- loud, threatening, made to be seen and always ready to blam the unruly. Dark Angels are Assassins- lethal, descreet, armed with crazy gear and not just loyal, but completly obedient, annihilating targets other forces have no idea about. Both have their place in Imperium.
@Dylan Edwards Perhaps I'm misinterpreting this, but your comment seems a little condescending. Did my analogy somehow rubbed you the wrong way?
@@TheBlackFrugo Get treated like a fresh guy stepping into a GW store for the first time, buddy. Captain Literal has graced you with his attention.
@@emirhaneksioglu4503 ...Hit him with the WHOLE M'fackin Encyclopedia...and he's still standing!!!😅😵
I always figured the Raven Guar would be assassins, considering they are the least in number, are based around guerrilla warefare and stealth ops. Actually they assassinate alot of their targets vs leading campagins. DA are basically just the legion equivalent of a nuke. Which I guess is kinda like the eversor assassin...nevermind lol
The roles of the loyal legions rarely overlap in any significant way, they each have their niches. I don't see the conflict or overlap in the Space Wolves and Dark Angels roles, they each have their specialty and a role suited to that specialty.
As fast as Cypher getting away from the dark angels.
Feels more like they’re embracing some OG Deathguard ideals sans the mention of chemical warfare.
I am still reading the book and have read past the point you discussed. I interrupt it as this, when the Emperor began his Great Crusade the galaxy was filled to the brim with alien horrors that used advanced biological and even horrific psychic tech ( i.e. the Khrave ). The first were that legion that faced these horrors and some were so disturbing that they could not be recorded or the existance of such horrors could be known. So, the Lion and the first are the Emperors exterminators, when the Emperor needs something to be ash and forgotten the first are his weapon of choice. But I cannot wait to hear your review on the book.
You know March last year my brother pre-ordered this for me for my birthday and I was seriously worried I may be the only one to read this, because it is a great and I didn't see a soul talking about it.
Also would love to see the I and V in action together. Both hunters, outriders, near-pariahs, but utterly loyal
I absolutely love this video, the Lion is one of my favourite Primarchs! I would love to see a video where you list all the roles of the Primarchs, why were each of them made?
My big headcanon was always that the Second Primarch was designed to battle in the Eternal War, the opponent he was designed to fight was Chaos itself, Psyker or Warp dependant Empires being his secondary opponents. And as such, the Second Primarch is a master of resource monopolization and Galaxy wide attrition Warfare.
He and the Lion complement each other, and would fit well in the modern day Imperium. One manages the rolling defence of the Imperium's "Wall of Guns" and the efficient usage of resources, the other brings to heel the discontent and cleanses corruption from entire worlds.
For total annihilations Lion. Afterall he had the most archaic and dangerous of weapons.
Going by the fact the Dark Angels headed up the Rangdan Xenocides I think it’s safe to say Johnson was the big E’s exterminator. Throughout the history of the Lion and the 1st it’s always said how Johnson was such an unstoppable genius on the battle field, we’ve just not had enough written lore to see for our selves why he’s so revived as such. So yes you’re right we do need more crusade era novels telling us why he was such a top tier bad ass, and why Johnson was so pissed he lost out to Horus when the Emperor bowed out.
He’s definitely a character I’d love to read more about even though I’m a proud Space Wolf player too
Ahhhh man. Your vids are amazing. I really love when you talk about the glorious 1st legion!
There was also that the Emperor made Perturabo his Lord of Iron. Believing he could shoulder all the harshest trials and difficult duties. Too bad Perturabo's constant rationalizing of everything led him to believe otherwise, thinking they were all tests and that he wasn't good enough, unable to see the trust placed in him.
And Proturbo absolutely needed praise and accolades, unlike the Lion. Respect from Fenris and the 6th ✊
@@sirdanthechipwright821 well a big Diesel engine requires more oil than a golf cart’s motor. Perturabo fought in some of the worst conditions and he needed to be treated accordingly. He should’ve been drawing in recruits from every possible world he could and had his marines take time off for extensive R&R (so like a week or two every 6 months)
this is why the Lion needs to be the next Primarch to return
YES!! ?.!
Love the video. My only dispute is we don't know the wolves were sent after the lost legions. It's actually heavily implied they were destroyed during the rangdan wars
We need a good long interaction between the emperor and Sangunius, we haven’t gotten much interaction and time is running out as his death looms closer in the heresy series
They weren't unleashed against Magnus in the sense of execution... not by the Emperor. The 1st legion cares not for who their blades fall upon; if the Emperor deems it so, no matter the cost it will be done.
The Lion Is who you Sent to leave nothing but ashes of planets and civilizations, he wont broke no compromise and show no mercy, the Wolf Is who you Sent to make the imperium proud in wars to boast about.
Both aré my personal favourites and i long for they to go on a brutal wild hunt in the Galaxy, Guilliman could take the brake.
Last time i was this early they still had planet
Too soon bro
Damn
That message interrogator-chaplain
That message right there
when you dont like counterfeit gear from mcragge
You what?
@@markrtoffeeman watch the video again lol
There is a bit more to the passage that you read that helps give some more color to the distinction between the Lion and Russ. The part where it explains the reasoning behind why a conqueror would need their adversaries utterly erased from history helps give more context and credence to the role of the Lion actually being the exterminator. I love Russ in some ways specifically because of his code of honor, and while he wouldn’t flinch at destroying anything if ordered to, I don’t see him methodically eradicating every trace of the enemy and then also keeping the secrets of the campaign. His legions actions are so well known through the lore it would be hard to see the wolves commit like that and no one knows the reason or outcome. My thinking anyway... cheers Rho!
The Lion was also the only being besides Malcador, who saw the emperor of man as he truly appeared.
Guilliman saw and still does see the Emperor for he was and still is. He just went with it because he believed the Emperor's goals were noble
@@derpyboi8591 I meant physically. It is mentioned in the Lion El Jonsson novel that he was the only primarch to see the Emperor's true physical form.
When the first legion pulled out a nuke. I imagen it having a soviet union symbol stamped on the side.
Funny way to spell American Flag
@@derpyboi8591 ok, let's meet in the middle the missile is British.
Why would the dark angels be communist scum?
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 because who else would lose a nuke?
The only thing I’d question was the emperor not contemplating treachery.
I honestly can’t remember where it was included, but me and and mates remember reading when malchador was at a woman’s bedside (might have been an audio book)
She mentioned essentially how can the emperor be amazing when the heresy is happening, with billions dying every day. If even he couldn’t see this coming, can we even win.
Malchador asked if he trusted her, and in her final moments, told her the heresy was always meant to happen. It was always the endgame to have a civil war. It was why he so blatantly treated some sons much better than others, and why each primarch had a almost a duplicate of sorts (Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors or Raven Guard and Night Lords)
It was however the interference of the chaos gods that accelerated the final scenario, forcing it to happen before they were truly ready for it. That’s why it’s been so hard for them, and why the teams are not as originally intended.
I like this in that it keeps the Emperors persons of plans within plans and has an eons long endgame but still can be out smarted by literal gods.
I agree, the 1st were made to annihilate heretic/xenos civilizations who had to be wiped from memory. Russ and the 6th were made for the sanction of their fellow Astartes. However this does (to me) raise the question that perhaps the 1st were involved in removing the unknown primarchs and their legions as they were wiped from memory.
A Lion does not concern himself with the opinions of Sheep
One thing I know is it the space wolves turned up to destroy the world eaters, they’d be in for one hell of a fight. Personally I think the world eaters would butcher them to a man.
Blood for the Blood God !
@@Duppyman695 skulls for the skull throne
Thanks to your lore reading. I've been buy the books your recomend can't wait to read this one
I love the space knight aesthetic so the ancient wargear just makes the DA that much cooler for me. The transition from the Great Crusade to 40k reminds me of the fall of Numenor in the Silmarillion, and how so much has been lost by the third age. Of course this is Warhammer so instead of gems and mithril we're talking plasma and phosphex.
I don't imagine them as better at anything necessarily compared to other legions, except that the 1st legion was a total package deal. If the Ultramarines are like the perfect multi-tool, the Dark Angels are like a full toolbox, and many of the other legions are like a purpose designed tool for a specific job. You do often see the 1st legion operating independently in long, remote campaigns. One thing that isn't quite clear to me is if the organization of the first legion has more to do with the culture the Lion picked up on Caliban or with the Emperors designs for what I've seen commonly referred to as "the proto-legion".
11:23 : I still think that the narrator was correct about the role of the Wolves. They were never meant to be 'unleashed' on Magnus, they were told to make an arrest and bring him back to Terra... a task at which they failed, spectacularly.
The Wolves shouldn't have been 'unleashed' because Russ is unreliable - he does damn stupid things like declare his Rune Priests to 'not be psykers', to attack Angron (and get his butt kicked), to attack the Lion (and get his butt kicked), to try to kill Magnus (he was ordered by the Emperor to make an arrest, yet let Horus convince him to do something else) and to attack Horus (and get his butt kicked).
The *threat* of the Wolves was their primary role, but the more times that Russ tried to put it into action then the more it became apparent that he couldn't back up his words. The Angels were the ones who got results!
This novel reinforced the opinion that the Lion is not only an absolute beast in combat but also as a commander, and merges the two seamlessly.
Also interested to here what your take is on the passages where he talks to the emperor and how he sees him.
Lion El Johnson? More like Lion Massive Johnson!
You know, because he's such a massive supporter of the Emperor?
I haven't read this novel yet, but I always theorized that the legions were paired up to share roles, and they just happened to break down evenly between Loyalist and Traitor. The Legion that paired up most with the Dark Angels are the Luna Wolves. They were the most strategic legions, specializing in winning wars with quick and decisive spear tip strikes. They embraced specialized squads and units, using each and every tool at their disposal, giving them flexibility that other legions lacked. The Lion and Horus were brilliant tacticians, and also two of the most ambitious primarchs.
As for the others?
Word Bearers and Ultramarines: Occupational forces. These chapters were the best and most efficient in converting conquered planets into valuable members of the Imperium. Before turning traitor, the Word Bearers created paradise worlds with fanatically loyal populations, and Guilliman was a master of efficiency and creating systems and organization.
Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors: siege warfare and defensive fortifications. Obvious here, but these are the guys that you call when you want to tear something down or build something up.
Death guard and Salamanders: hostile environment specialists and asymmetric warfare. These guys are the toughest of the tough, and will go through hell and back to get the job done with never a backward step.
Raven Guard and Alpha Legion: intelligence gathering and stealth/ambush missions. You need some one to sneak in somewhere, sabotage something, or launch a surprise attack? These are your guys.
Night Lords and White Scars: hit and run guerrilla warfare. They are fast, hit hard, and move before they are countered. They sow fear and confusion as they go, maximizing their mobility to keep their opponents guessing where they will strike next
Blood Angels and World Eaters: shock troopers. You need some one to cut a bloody path through the enemy and cripple their moral in the process? These are your butchers.
Iron Hands and Emperor's Children: precision and coordinated warfare. You need a Legion who can perfectly time an assault or pull off complicated maneuvers, often in tandem with other forces? Its what they do. They obsess over perfection and precision, so no one else does it better.
Thousand Sons and ?: I theorize that one of the missing legions paired with the Thousand sons. It was most likely their out of control psychic ability that caused their primarch to be put down, and parts of the Legion to be filtered into the Ultramarines.
Space Wolves and ?: again I theorize that one of the missing legions was the match to the Space Wolves. Only they were horribly mutated and out of control, and so they were put down. Probably a Legion of furry chibi cat lady's. The Emperor was so embarrassed all records had to be erased. Lol.
Just my opinions and theories. Many pair some differently, but this is how I organized the legions by their behaviors and tactics.
Personally from my understanding at least I would actually pair up the Space Wolves and the World Eaters with this break down since they are both berserkers but different type of berserkers. I get the argument of the Blood Angels though they were not infected with the Black Rage until after Sanguineous fell. Then again also worth mentioning what the World Eaters became after meeting Angron was not what the Emperor intended for them to be when he formed them and the same could be said for Angron after being forced to take the Butcher's Nails. Not to mention the way the Emperor handled Angron when he was discovered was not the greatest either.
@@si1verg3cko Actually in some of the novels, the black rage was something the legion was experiencing even before Sanguinius fell. In fact it worried the hell out of Sanguinius and was something he struggled to hide from the other primarchs. Even Horus, whom he trusted implicitly at the time. And I agree about Angron. That is what makes him so tragic. The nails robbed him of his potential, possibly to be as noble and respected as Sanguinius himself. Both Legions have innate blood lust. One gives in to it, and the other struggles against it. I don't see the Space Wolves the same way. They cultivate the persona sure, but in battle they tend to be a lot more crafty than mindless rage fueled berserker. Fierce sure, but also clever. It always seems like they retain their self control. The Blood Angels struggle with that. Thats why I see them as matching with the World Eaters more. Plus there is Khorne's obvious interest in them as well.
@@BonzaiBomber Agreed that the Space Wolves certainly work at their self control so sort of have a directed fury and they certainly purge anyone that can't do it.
I knew the Blood Angels were having issues before the fall of Sanguinius though I thought more than anything it was the Red Thirst that was causing the issues at that point.
The Lion organized the hexagrammaton, we know deathwing and ravenwing, terminators and mobility, respectively.
We also have:
Ironwing: mechanized, tanks and artillery
Firewing: asymmetric, infrastructure warfare
Stormwing: assault, breech, defence-in-depth.
And more so than any other legion, The Dreadwing.
Legion Destroyer Squads are exterminators. Every legion has some, but every other legion is uncomfortable with using them beyond raw necessity.
The Lion organized an entire wing of the legion to be this uniquely uncomfortable type of warfare, an entire wing of Legion Destroyers.
No wonder he secure to invade Macragge.
Would love to see the Black Library give us a story about taking Sedna. This and the novel of Alpharius should shed more light on the question. No other force in the Imperium possesses the archaeotech of the 1st (well legally sanctioned by the Emperor (beloved by all))
well I guess this kinda explains the Dark Angels'..."help" at the Siege of Vraks
to be fair they were very helpful, they get a hard time for it but they showed up, chased away the CSM present, destroyed a strategic location that the Guard honestly wouldn't have been able to hold in the long term and then sent a successor chapter to go help when they heard that more enemies showed up at Vraks.
They are responsible that the whole shitshow was not cleared before the whole demon thing
@@ravanpee1325 I mean, whats a more effective use of a chapters resources, hunting down the Chaos Warband they drove away or helping a Guardsmen Regiment with a threat they can handle in a method of war that they specialise in?
@@LCliffhanger Vrask was a major blow for the Imperium and many Space Marines lost their life in the end - more as needed. From an utilitarian perspective they fucked up. That was a point in time where achieving victory was easy in comparison to later when the CSM arrived. You can't fight always in your comfort zone
@@ravanpee1325 The Dark Angels taking Vraks wouldnt have been outside of their comfort zone, it would have simply been the less efficient choice, they cant see the future, they made the more effective decision at the time, you can only blame hindsight once the shits hit the fan.
Think about it, if a Jungle World rebelled and the Catachan Jungle Fighters were there to supress the rebels, then, a chaos warband shows up and things look pretty grim, but, the Dark Angels show up and cause the CSM to flee, now, the Dark Angels have 2 choices, stay and help the Jungles finish a war that they could easily win on their own, or hunt down a fleeing warband of CSM while the Catachan Jungle Fighters fight in their ideal environment.
Cmon, Vraks was the kind of war that Krieg was known for.
I dont know how much more I can simplify it.
The way I see it, the Lion and the DA's are the final solution for external threats to the Imperium, threats that need to be completely scoured from existence. The Lion was a hunter of mutants and xenos beasts from childhood, and continued to do the same as the Lord of the 1st. If the Lion were to awaken in 40k, I would see him and his reformed legion pairing well with the missions of the Ordo Xenos and the Deathwatch.
On the other hand, Russ and his sons exist as a counter to the greatest internal threat to the Imperium: Traitor Astartes. When a primarch and his legion turn from the Emperor's light, then they are destroyed wholesale by the Rout.
The Lion exterminates beasts beyond his master's walls. The Wolf executes traitorous dogs within them.
I think it’s interesting that the Dark Angels may have been the best equipped to handle Tyranids since they know to go for the biggest monsters rather than fight attritionally like the Ultramarines tried
Sounds like this was the Emperor’s legion of “exterminating” the space marines when the great crusade was finished like he did with the thunder warriors
As you point out it is always important to understand the source or perspective within the Heresy Stories. A perfect case of..
"We see the world not as it is, but as we are."
Anais Nin
"We have come, we are death". 💀
His upbringing on Caliban probably gave the Lion a very distinct view on what should and shouldn’t be allowed to exist, and the lengths that are needed for that. Giving him a legion of Astartes with access to the most dangerous weapons known to humanity seems like a happy coincidence for the Emperor.
You missed the second conversation between the lion and the emperor where he essentially views them as his ‘exterminators’. This is a similar view to that shared by aravaine but from a different perspective.
I thought your vid was great as always!
It’s a great read, can’t wait to see the next video. Being I to the lore I don’t recall a book or passage where it states “Russ” was sent against the two missing primarchs. Russ speaks cryptically on occasion but whenever the two missing primarchs are mentioned Russ never is. In the meeting between Horus and Malcador and Malcador and Dorn there is never a mention of Russ being involved in their fates.
True, we dont really know the truth about It.
Although it is quite amusing imagining frail little Malcador taking big strong Horus across his knee and spanking him like a misbehaving 4 year old. That was an epic read, and cemented my opinion that Malcador was a beast among bad asses and had balls the size of a Cadian guardsman's loyalty.
@@LARGO125 Malcador represents!
It's also worth noting there's a difference between executioner and exterminator.
One is to make an example of, the other is tantamount to little more than genocide
Technically I wouldnt refer to the Wings as Orders.
An Order can be a synonym for company, like how Corswain was master of the 9th Order.
You then have the Wings of the Hexagrammaton and the Orders of the Hekatonystika which would each have their own specialised knowledge (similar to the deathwatch) and would form advisory bodies for commanders if their knowledge was needed.
The Order of Broken Claw for example was formed after the Rangdan Xenocides and holds the only full and complete accounting of that war as well as access to a detailed catalogue of anatomical data and are basically Rangda specialists.
First and greatest. Dark Angels.
Well said brother. Well said.
How quickly everyone has forgotten that Lion wanted, almost feverishly, to be chosen Warmaster after Horus' betrayal was unveiled, but not all of the Traitors yet joined him. He sent the great siege engines he has captured from Horus, to Perturabo, in hopes of swaying him to acknowledge himself as the next Warmaster. Don't get me wrong, I adore the Lion, he is in my top three along with Corax and the Khan, but he needs the praise and the glory, just not in the way of his brothers.
Regarding the Space Wolves and Prospero, weren't they only send to capture the Thousand Suns, but their order was changed by Horus?
Pretty sure Russ was told to capture and bring back Magnus to Terra but Horus intercepted him. He told him the Emperor changed his mind to just kill everything. Russ believed him because he didn't know Horus has already turned at this point. A lot of issues during Horus Heresy because long range communication in WH40K is shit at the best of times.
@@collecter343 gotcha, thanks for clarifying.
Yeah that was Horus messing things up.
The first time I was this early, Lion wasn't sleeping beauty, Luthor was sane and there weren't three splinter factions of the Angels and Caliban was still a world not just a mass of space rocks.
I think the wolves are like the 8th, sent to make a statement. "Stay in line, or else" as when the wolves are sent, they are loud and brash. But the angels are quiet, when an enemy needs to be erased and kept hidden for all time, like the thunder warriors. The 2nd and 11th are still somewhat talked about, and tbh the tactic worked, sanguinis was afraid of his own legion following the same fate. Whereas if it was the lion, the 2nd and 11th would have been gone with no explanation. I also feel like the dark angels weren't designed to fight fellow astartes. They are honourable to a fault, whereas the wolves have 0 mercy and will fight dirty and excell at fighting their own (check wolf's bane)
Just a thought, but this reminded me of confrontation between Konrad and Magnus over a forbidden library. Lion would have sided with Konrad, which is interesting when we know that Magnus thought highly of the Lion even considering him as able to pursuit his quest of knowledge. Magnus again failing to consider a bigger picture.
Lion needs to wake up and wipe lords of terra out of existence too. Well malacador was right, Primarchs needed some older sisters to pat on their head and make cookies to stop brotherly fights lol
Russ and his Wolves were made to fight Astartes, Lion and his Angels were made to inflict annihilation on a target.
I think Vulkan is also one of the Emperor's most trusted sons given the fact that he gets to hang on to Terra's self destruction button in essence.
Hmm with this new stuff on the Lion and his cubs, I really want to see more of Leman and his pups aswell.
Here we go . A biased account . Firstly russ exterminating the one of the lost primarchs is pure speculation bordering on fan fiction , secondly the wolves were sent to prospero to arrest magnus same as he was sent to arrest angron . His role is more the emperors goaler .
Book claims Russ fights for honor, and Rho's like "No, I love Russ, but the dude is a scoundrel".
Just take a compliment from a Dark Angel for once, wolfie.
I think the main difference between their titles as executioner and exterminator lies in the fact the executions are typicaly public as a show of what happens to those that don't follow the established order. Russ is a threat, not an empty threat but i think the emperor gets more use out of the fear people have of the executioner rather than the executions themselves. exterminations however are usually not public what do you do when a planet no longer respects you or fears you? you just have to cut your losses kill them and move on that is what the lion is for he carries out these exterminations many of them in secret so that the fact that a planet was no longer afraid of the imperium does not ever become public knowledge. in my opinion of course.
True.
Sometimes you want someone to be made an example of and sometimes you just want them disappeared.
Thank you for this amazing 15 min, love your vids! :)