Dune: Part Two - Spoilers Discussion
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- Опубліковано 28 лют 2024
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AngryJoe, OtherJoe & Alex talk about all the Spoilers from Dune: Part Two!
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Dune is absolutely NOT a white savior story. It is a warning, and condemnation of unquestioned leadership and how that is easily weaponized and used as a tool for population manipulation. And it's a story about how power is always untrustworthy, no matter the guise it takes. Herbert said as much countless times, the book goes into great detail and uses countless conversations, metaphors and direct references to these themes of caution and critical assessment of such people and social structures. Anyone who is saying otherwise is literally to be entirely dismissed as people that have neither never read the books or even seen these movies. The Lynch film didn't really deal with these themes at all and I suspect a lot of people are using that as a wrong reference point for what the story of Dune actually is.
Couldn't have said it better.
Yep, same with Last Samurai.
i totally agree with this for the first two books, but I feel like it goes so off the rails from children of dune onwards. with leto II's worm god thing the universe literally makes it so that he's literally objectively correct about his tyranny when he decides to impose his Golden Path so what's up with that???
Yeh that trope was conceived after Dune anyway, has no relevance.
Plus you know, he's the opposite of a saviour...
@@michelleong2762 It became about exploring concepts like absolute power and immortality and how they would completely deprive you of your humanity.
*Paul puts two cubes of sugar on his coffe* ,
AS FORESEEN BY THE PROPHECY , PRAISE BE MUAB`DI, LISAN-AL GAIB
It's funny because he did say something similar in the book.
I think he complained that every action he took were recorded and turned into legends no matter how benign they where
He has become the TZATZIKI KAKARAK!!!
@@artmaknev3738 With all the rave reviews everywhere, i didn't expect it to turn out to be one of the most pretentious, boring and dumb sci-fi movie ever. Everyone in it is either angry, sad or depressed. No wonder they want that spice so much, to get high and escape from this depressing world.
AS WRITTEN
Paul: I’m not the messiah!!
Fremen: he is the messiah!!!
It is written!
I desperately need someone to ask Denis directly if he stole that scene from Monty Python.
Javier Bardem needs to get a special mention. He played the role of Stilgar so well and even added some light comedic relief with his reactions to every little bit of action from Paul that hinted more and more that he was the Messiah.
He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! Now, piss off!
@@cochonkgI surely got massive 'Life of Brian' vibes like no other movie has given me xD
Because the movie does not really mention the Space Guild, the audience misses a very important thing.
When Paul threatens to destroy all spice with atomics, automatically the Space Guild joins his side because they are full on addicted to Spice, they cannot live without it anymore. Without access to the Space Guild Navigators, the Great Houses are stuck on their own territory, meaning that the Fremen can go after them one at a time.
As for the Harkonnen destroying Sietch Tabr, it's a replacement scene. In the book, the Harkonnen do a deep strike against a Sietch and kill Paul and Chani's child, which is when Paul decides that he needs to do what he has been afraid of doing. They removed that part of their relationship, but still needed to give a moment where Paul sees that small insurgency won't win the war and needs to escalate.
Agree. They don't expand a number of important concepts. I would have liked an HBO style series for Brian Herbert's prequels to set up the universe and all the players and lore. I know some people don't like them but it does do alot of world building.
Since they did not say anything about the fremen's environmentalism and the spice's cycle, maybe the third movie will be set at the start of the war and then skip to Messiah later. The houses attack Paul and the Guild helps them, because they know that 90 nukes is not enough to kill all the worms, but if in the third movie, while they fight, they also discover a reliable way to kill the worms, like they do in the book, the Guild will then defect to Paul and win him the war. Then skip 20 years to Dune Messiah.
@@ixian_technocrat yeah i think they will show a good 30min of the war in the next movie, maybe expand on the guild because they are travelling in space.
Thanks for the explanation!
Paul dies in the books? 😢
49:15 I disagree, about using the voice on the Emperor. The Emperor needs to submit and it needs to be seen that he is choosing to submit over death.
He could've made him kneel with the voice and then ask calmly to kiss the ring. Showing he could make him do it but won't
nope the emperor needs to submit on his own@@alexsilva28
@@alexsilva28 Would also make his claim as the new emperor illegitimate cause he used the voice against the Emperor which is pretty much mind control
Also should be noted he was stamping his feet at the emperor to the same bpm as when he stamped the ground with his fist at the beginning to call the big worm.
@@Eisenthorn4179I mean he already surprise attacked the emperor and kill the harkonnens and the sardukar doesn't that make his claim to the throne illegitimate anyways? Otherwise why would the great houses refuse to have him as emperor which happens at the ending
No, it is in Dune that the Barron is his grandfather. But he finds out earlier in the book, when they are hiding in the desert in the tent after escaping Arrakeen.
so thats where lucas got the luke vader type story from
@@Blobby192lucas ripped off the whole "Chosen One" ordeal from Dune as well as other things of course but the grandfather thing i dont think it was ripped off. But i could be wrong. But he definintly ripped off the Chosen One, the politics the complexity of the entire universe. Paul and Anakin are the same person pretty much in a hypothetical: just take away Palpatine, and make Anakin Chancellor during the events of "revenge of the sith", Stormtroopers are Freman and Anakin takes over the galaxy. Same story, its actually insane how similar the two stories are and i'm surprised Frank Herbert didnt sue... They both have twins a boy and a girl, and the boy ends up being the true hero in their respected universes. Anakin and Paul both have redemption arc's, and they both die in similar fashion trying to undo what they caused. Paul dying at the end of the third book, and Anakin died in the third movie lmaooo
@@Blobby192 Lucas ripped off the entirety of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.
Correct! Even Paul's sister Alia Atreides, who is not born in the movie but is actually already born by the end of the second book even directly calls the Baron "grandfather." In this movie it is Paul that stabs the Baron to kill him but in the book and the 1984 movie it is actually Alia that kills the Baron with the Gom-Jabbar needle she stole from a Bane-Gesserit.
@@kylegadson4855 the "Chosen One" ordeal wasn't created by Dune. The whole "chosen one" idea is present in all of human history. How are stormtroopers Freman? The only thing they have in common are being an army... I guess it's the same story if you change Star Wars...
Dying at the end of the third book/movie has to do with storytelling structure (beginning/intro, middle/climax, ending/conclusion); Classic storytelling follows Freytag's triangle. It's not a surprise that most movie series end up being trilogies.
No, no, Josh Brolin’s character GURNEY HALEK in the book DID join a group of very successful Spice Smugglers.
He thinks that his Atredies family is 100% dead, and needs to accumulate a LOT of money in order to escape the planet.
If you know Gurney Halek’s backstory, it makes perfect sense.
Gurney was not always with the Atredies. In fact he was born and raised on a HARKONEN planet, as a peon, and sees the Harkonen kill his beloved sister when they can’t force her into being a sekc slave for them.
He had to be innovative and self-sufficient to make his way off-world then, before being brought into the Atredies household.
Im just glad someone else mentioned this lol
they shoulda explored that more in the film, even if just a 2 minute clip or conversation
@CrazyRockerTom I agree, just an extra line or 2 of Gurney's backstory could've been useful. They just kinda threw it in before pauls speech. if anything, I wished Rabban and Gurney had an actual fight scene. I feel like it would've meant more to Gurney killing him if it was a more difficult battle. All in all, though, I still really liked the movie
They should have paid homage to the video game and had an ordos flag in the back
@@jdlaprophet97 I'm happy they didn't had a big fight. Rabban was a brute, very intimidating but it wasn't said he's a great fighter. More using his forces and power to scare people and fight on not-fair (harkonnen) rules. While Gurney or Duncan were great fighters, almost admired even by Baron's mentat in the first movie. Best trainer of combat art etc. To me it makes sense that Gurney just killed Rabban without a sweat.
The millions/billions die not from the military but from starvation cut off from space travel and trade
They definitely should have included the Spacing Guild more. Since the whole reason why Paul is able to become so powerful is because the Spacing Guild needs Spice and almost all FTL travel is controlled by the Spacing Guild. And by controlling the Spice, Paul is able to make the Spacing Guild do what he wants and starve out his enemies by cutting off trade.
Eh... It's a combination of military (jihad) conquest by the Fremen forces and planetary sterilization.
The books imply that the majority of lives are lost to the violence of the Fremen.
@@KingOfMadCows Ah, thanks. I was wondering if those billions dying were really the result of the holy war or something else. It is weird how the spacing guild was so absent but I'm assuming they're going to have a much bigger role in the third movie.
well Paul does order starships to destroy and sterilize all life on at least 12 planets.
Yeah they left them out way too much like a navigator sets his mind upon going against Paul and clouding his precognition in messiah
He IS the Quiznos Heartattack.
The Quiz Nose Had her ass?
Alright that got me😂😂😂😂
Thanks alot, Now I will forever hear it this way.
Queensack Nickelback
49:20 I disagree about the stamping, I think the stamp is the most powerful move Paul could do at the emperor infront of everyone. Sure he could do the voice, but just like what you guys said with the duel with Rautha, it would lower Paul's display of power. The way Paul handled that sequence was a power move to make the emperor surrender and accept his authority while everyone watches. So instead of using the voice, or even asking AGAIN to kneel, just stamping is a power move/threat that you kneel or die without a word. Same as how as a kid when your parent beat you with a stick to do something and you don't and before they hit you, they hit something else. That stamping scene was one of the most powerful scene imo.
True i really loved it. And just like the whole movie it was an new/interesting way of visualising something. Having Paul verbally threathen the emperor would have been boring.
A reference to the book. Leto teaches Paul that a true leader must give as few orders as possible.
^ this. It was a great visual call back to the Herald of the Change scene from part 1
agreed
in a movie, that stamp was great. it was like talking to a child. total power move.
Concerning the Atomics. It's forbidden to use Atomics against people, else everyone gets to nuke you. Paul was like "yea i'm using nukes, but it's aimed at land, not people, so its okkkkk"
when that nuke blows right in front of Paul what a awesome scene i loved it
Yeah, the target of Paul's atomics would be destroying the spice
He who can destroy a thing, can control a thing
Exactly, just like in previous movies he used them to open the shield wall. Even if he didn’t have extra aimed at spice once you use atomics on people what’s stopping the great houses from nuking them. Also he has benijesserat and the whole Castillan line hostage. He had some of the guild as well in 1984
Angry Joe Feyd's voice is 100% an impression. I watched the actor being interviewed. He said he studied Stellan's voice, and cadence. So that was on purpose.
The final part was an inch from perfection. The spacing guild was missing. And how they are paralized by paul. It truly conveyed that the fact that Paul held all the cards
I think that they already had too many things to work with in this part, and it is extremely likely that the spacing guild will become one of the main "characters" in Part 3
I think they will be introduced early on in part 3.
Would be interesting if they could do a longer version that adds those details. Ultimately I think it makes sense to remove that as a plot point and they can still mention it in the next movie.
The "house atomics" issue was cannon. Each noble house had nukes in a "mutually assured destruction" agreement.
What I find weird is, doesn't anyone with a shield battery and a laser own nukes? Since if you shoot a shield it creates a nuclear blast? Sounds even more practical and less cumbersome than some old school rockets, that technically some single dude with a laser could have shot out of the sky before they reached the palace
The "lasgun shots a shield and it creates a nuclear blast" effect isn't assured
@@SniperCego but its fairly likely?
@@mcmarkmarkson7115it's also mentioned that the point of the explosion isn't guaranteed meaning the explosion could be at the shooters target, somewhere along the fired shot, or at the shooters location doing no damage to the intended target depending on distance
Hey those were nukes he shot at the cliffs near the emperor tent? How is Paul just staring at a nuke blast and do the nukes not produce radiation..they were all being covered in radioactive rocks and dust..I was really confused watching this scene
in regards to the Heretics: yes, that version of Duncan Idaho is genetically enhanced by the Tleilaxu to combat the Honored Matres via sexual intercourse. Sex with this Duncan is the Kryptonite to these Dommy Honored Matres. its crazy, its kinky, and I don't know why I kept reading it. pls send help.
God i was dying reading this! 😂 Seems AJ was too!
Lmao wait Alex wasn't making that shit up? 😂😂. I thought he was just saying that because he had a weird thing for Jason Mamoa
@@Soccercrazyigboman nah. Heretics and Chapterhouse are extremely horny, and not always in a fun way:D
@@SoccercrazyigbomanHeretics of Dune is a very horny book
Books get weird they said
The arena fight scene was accurate with the book, the Atreides prisoners were drugged before being sent out to fight Feyd. Feyd has an undefeated streak and all of his fights are fixed beforehand. His blades were even poisoned.
I missed the part where it is explained he poisoned both blades, and now everyone will wonder which hand holds the poisoned blade.
I don't think it was mentioned in the movie that the blades were poisoned like in the books. But I do remember is Feyd only fought one Atreides in the book which was already drugged. But not 3 where 1 was undrugged like in the movie.
I thought there was also a scene where Feyd uses a "code-word" to paralyse his enemy. Then Paul discovers that Feyd also has a code-word implanted in him. But during the Feyd/Paul fight, Paul says "I will not say it!" which stuns Feyd for a second and allows Paul to win.
@@lordpigsterIt was indeed not mentioned at all, very sad. It establishes him as a schemer and cheater (quite opposite to the honor searching Fayd in the movie )
He was also the one responsible for the slave not being drugged, and used that to claim that it was an assassination attempt against him in order to get the slave master executed, because the slave master was loyal to the Baron and it allowed Feyd-Rautha to replace him with a man loyal to him instead. This lead to his assassination attempt against the Baron later.
It was known that one blade was poisoned, but the games always have the fighters poison one specific blade, and in that fight Feyd poisoned the other one instead.
oh i thought chani’s motivations were pretty clear from the start, she does not believe in this whole messiah prophecy bullshit, she’s constantly worrying about what it’ll do to her people and in that scene where Paul speaks to the fremen he’s essentially embracing being the chosen one when he repeatedly told her he didn’t believe in it
was kind of assuming the paul would use the voice the control the fre'h'min
Which isnt Chani at all. It's Zendaya, not Chani.
@@natediaz1863zendeya always hoeing
I agree, the creative liberty they took with her character makes sense. She was hesitant and saw what Paul was doing and going to become even if Paul said he wouldn't
@@thaddeusgreen9845It's inappropriate, and disrespectful to the author.
your missing the point of feyd he also had a character ark he was always given everything on a plate because he was the favourite, everything was always there for him to win, the baron put him under pressure, probably for the first time in front of a potential bride of the emperor to show he was worthy, to test him to see if he really had what it takes, just like gurney did with paul, feyd was done well imo
That was in the book, they didn’t really imply that was the case in the film
@@diegocastillo2022I thought it was showed when the Baron leans forward and says “show me who you are” while Feyd is looking up at him. So then Feyd takes off his shield and accepts the challenge.
In the book: it never explicitly stated how the Harkonnens found Sietch Tabr, it's just cut to Paul heard the news of the attack, killing his infant son (Leto II the elder) and captured his sister (Alia) who were hidden. The Sietch were mostly abandoned, the majority of the fremen flees to the south, leaving a handful of fedaykin to guard Paul's family and basically treat the Sietch it as an outpost.
Didn't the Sardaukar find Alia and Leto II in the southern Sietch? Thought that was mentioned when the Emperor was speaking to the Baron at the end of the book basically calling him a fool for not checking the south.
@@isaiahkaiver1917 Correct. It was the Sardaukar that found the Sietch. They were looking for Mua'dib, and instead find his son and his sister. Alia is the one that fucks with the Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother, not Paul.
Yes, and that's when Alia gets called an Abomination!@@TheRiehlThing42
40:24 "But he wakes up an asshole."
Paul's mind was opened to all realities and futures after waking from the coma. He seems like an asshole because he is now lazer focused on achieving the one future he knows will save humanity, later to be known as "The Golden Path". If you knew every action you took would ensure a future you wanted, would you care how those actions made you look to everyone else?
Nope. Feelings are for sheep. Leaders do what must be done despite people’s feelings on the matter. A Lion doesn’t concern himself with the opinions of sheep
TBF, Paul was not laser focused on the Golden Path, for he knew just how much he will need to sacrifice. He later ran away from it and let his son bear the burden.
So he goes full Eren Yeager in short
@ 0:58, Actually the movie starts exactly where Part One left off. Hence them still carrying Jamis' body..
41:00 - this is in book 1, Paul tells Jessica she’s the barons own daughter.
No Paul doesn't exile himself to stop the Jihad. Its already over at that point. He exiles himself because he truly becomes blind and that is freeman law but also because he knew the finale step was the Golden Path and he feared it so much he knew he couldnt complete it to the fullest. So he left humanity to fend for itself. It just turns out his son Leto would be the one to actually be capable of fullfilling it.
Paul intentionally blinded himself because that way he could escape from the Golden Path.
@@ElBandito No i don't remember him blinding himself for a way out. If I remember correctly, he allowed the stone burner to blind him because that would only boolster his image since he would still be able to see and all the other assasination attempts meant death. It was only after the stone burner incident that he started to slowly doubt his own sight and then the birth of his twins made him him truly doubt himself because he only saw one of them. Thus he actually became blind and decided to exile himself.
Paul learning he’s harkonnen wasn’t in messiah. He learns it in the tent with his mom after escaping the initial attack. I thought it was odd the first movie hadn’t mentioned it and figured they weren’t going to expand on it. Like how liet Keynes is chani’s mom (father in the book) but they hint at it with the blue ribbon
Whats the significance of it though? Why does it matter?
@@DR-xt5jq the significance of him being harkonnen? Or the significance of him learning it?
@@Spartan0417 significance of both?
@@DR-xt5jq I may be wrong, but I believe the path for Jessica was to have a daughter with Leto (she gave him a son out of love), who would then mate with a Harkonnen, yielding a male who had a higher promise to become the Kwisatz Haderach (at least it was one of the plans laid that the Bene Gesserit). Been a year since I read the book and I've listened to a few long form youtube lore/analysis videos so I could be wrong.
@@shoe7ess2 Yeah, I think Jessica gave him a son out of love and to ease Leto's grief because of events that happened in the prequels. And I think you are right, it was supposed to be the last daughter in the line, Jessica sped up the process by 1 generation.
I did not like the relationship between Chani and Jessica whatsoever. It was way too cold and made them seem like they were each in it only for themselves when in the books they BOTH loved Paul and wanted what was best for him. Chani is definitely hurt when Paul proposes marriage to Irulan, and he makes promises to her which Chani feels will never last. But then Jessica talks to Chani.
*[“Do you know so little of my son?” Jessica whispered. “See that princess standing there, so haughty and confident: They say she has pretensions of a literary nature. Let us hope she finds solace in such things; she’ll have little else.” A bitter laugh escaped Jessica. “Think on it, Chani: that princess will have the name, yet she’ll live as less than a concubine-never to know a moment of tenderness from the man to whom she’s bound. While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.”]*
That shows how much Paul loves Chani and how the marriage is 100% a political move for 'peace' and that Chani is the one he desires. He will still be 'Usul' to her and only her.
That's how it is different in the books; In the books, we basically skip two years of Paul and Chani relationship building, and Chani never opposes Paul "on page" -- she is only jealous and sad that he marries princess Irulan. There is also none of this division within the fremen; Once Paul rides the worm, they are basically a uniform peoples who are completely subordinate to their prophet leader, at least "on page", until the end of the book.
Like it or not, putting these long time skips in the movie, and let that explain the missing "character arc" leading to the character growth for the fremen, Paul and Chani, would be more confusing and less believable.
Also, I'm so glad we didn't have a child actor for Alia, it just couldn't be good, because she is not childlike at all, and physically agile like no child actor could pull off.
I disagree. What Chani and Jessica are doing aren't for themselves, but the ppl around them.
There's a scene where Jessica tries to comfort Chani in the movie which doesn't work because of Chani's distrust of the Bené Jeserit (sorry, don't know how to spell it).
Everything Chani does is for her people, she says that during that scene. She thought she could trust Paul, but as we see he has to play 2 sides and she loses that trust.
Jessica is doing what she's doing to protect her son and daughter and possibly have a place in high power in the future. She cares about Chani but only so much as Paul cares about her. She doesn't really care about the Fremen overall as she's trying to manipulate them as she does even more so in the books from what I've heard.
Both of them care about Paul very much but are pulled away by their motives, goals, and what they have to protect, but also by what the Bené Jeserit have done to them. All three of them, Paul, Jessica, and Chani are in tough spots and at any point could join together or clash.
THIS COMMENT YES! I absolutely loved the film but was sad they made this change although I suspect Denis V is going to use wrap up that story thread in the 3rd film.
Im sure It will be adressed or retconned in Messiah. Maybe Paul explains the golden path to Chani and to the viewer. And maybe Chani tries to help Paul but also change destiny (and It fails as It failed in the book)
@@patrickdoss25
I'm inclined to think the same way. There's so many ways the Paul's arc and journey to become a disillusioned, brutal eader could be made realistic and believable in Part 3. One of them would be the "reconciliation" of Chani and Lady Jessica to save Paul from all the sinister plots by the Bene Gesserits, House Fenring, Spacing Guild, Tleixla..all sorts of villainous characters out for Paul head.
The foot stamp mirrors the sound of calling the worms. The pounding sound is used throughout as a show of power, fear, authority, control.
I had an idea that the Sandworms once faced gargantuan invaders, so when they hear stomping they come for a fight.
Why does everyone keep spelling it "stamp"?
@@nathandrake9737
Because that's a correct term for the action.
I will say in Dune part 1 Duncan is asked how many fremen are in the desert and says: About 10,000 people in underground in a seiche, and there are 100's of seiches... Millions of fremen.
Millions is a FAR more reasonable amount for soldiers to conquer the universe, given they are on par with sardukar without future sight and each fremen is probably equal to 25-50 regular soldiers.
In the book after the Atreides scatter from Arrakeen I believe Hawat meets a group of Fremen or something and they one of their group is dead and instead of being mournful (it's the first glimpse at how the Fremen view death) the Fremen clouts that his man took something like 3-6 Sardukar with him.
Yeah I think the numbers are reasonable. The houses don't have billion men armies, probably couple hundred thousands or millions at most. With Fremen, basically every one of them is a capable soldier, whereas the absolute vast majority of people on other planets are just civilians. And that's not even talking about the Fedaykeen who were taught the Bene Gesserit way of fighting by Jessica.
they used atomics to take out the shield wall around Arrakeen. This was in the David Lynch version as well. they had to blow a hole in the defenses so they could mount their attack.
When brolin saw Bautista my buddy nudged me and was like “drax vs thanos” then in 20 seconds I nudged him and was like “damn that’s exactly how that marvel fight woulda gone” lol
Again even in the book Feyd's prowess was never the question of if he could kill Paul outright. His threat was that he cheats.
I've never read the book and the immediate vibe i got from that character is that he is a spoiled psychotic cheat
@@michaeloftaoism Lol accurate
Joe forgets that Paul has access to the Fremen and the Sardaukar as emperor. He could easily accomplish a Jihad with that force.
And he is the heir to both Atreides and Harkonnen houses, and has access to their militaries (Harkonnen may take some persuasion)
Most of the Sardaukar are dead the rest if my memory servers me right were ordered by Paul to disband... 1 Freman warrior is worth 10-20 Sardaukar.... Paul doesnt need them... Its also the reason why it was so easy for him to wage ware against the entire imperium.
That and Arakis isn't the only planet that the Bene Jesserit have been spreading tales on. The other planets will have similar stories of a chosen one.
He has control of the Spice he doesn’t need to fight every one he can just cut off trade and let billions suffer from Spice withdrawal
I do not think the Sardaukar would swear loyalty to Paul. In the books canon the Sardaukar is the military force owned by the House of Corrino. Now obviously this isn't in the movie, but if the great houses do not approve of Paul declaring himself the new emperor and House Corrino exists, then they could rally Sardaukar against a "False Emperor."
They missed out a huge plot in the movie where Paul and Chani did have a first son, called Leto Atreides II the Elder, which was killed by Sardaukar forces in Sketch Tabr.
and BOOK SPOILERS!!!!!!!
how paul reacts to chani telling him about their son dead, is him saying: "that's sad. but we can have other children." xD
yeah book Paul was much more colder and often times tried to suppress his feelings, especially when his father and Duncan died
@@lordpigsterand that’s where the combo of Mentat and Bene Gesserit training would kick in. Something touched on but not explored that he could mask and push down his feelings
Well they cut the 2nd part down to 6 months Alia wasn’t even born
I wouldn't call it a huge plot, when Leto II doesn't even appear on page. There is a time skip, it's mentioned that Paul has a son, and then it's later mentioned that his son was killed. I don't blame them for cutting that out.
I think Denis is turning this Dune series into a Chani and Fremen story. Beginning of the first movie, when she asks who will their next oppressors be? She is wary of someone not Fremen rising above them and oppressing them. She thought Paul wasn't going to do that, but then she saw he was going that route, and that's what drove her away from him in this movie. It is a change from the books, and I'll be interested to see how it works out in Part 3. Will she be part of the Fremen faction against him?
For God Emperor of Dune, it was Siona, who was a descendant of Leto II's sister, Ghanima. She was also a descendant of one of the Duncan Idaho gholas. Siona was what Leto II's breeding program was designed to do. He had taken control of the breeding programs of the Bene Gesserits. Where they wanted to breed someone that could see the future and control the future, Leto II wanted to breed someone that would not be detected by anyone with future sight, and return humanity to having free actions and futures, not controlled by someone that could see the future. Then the scattering was to spread humanity everywhere, so there would always be humanity somewhere, to continue the race. Like if a parent keeps a child under control, not letting them explore boundaries, keeping them locked in a tiny area. When that child tastes freedom and can explore, they're going to go wherever they possibly can. Leto II was that strict parent, keeping humanity bottled up, and his death broke the bottle in an explosion for humanity to truly spread, and with no one able to track everyone.
Paul does not die in the dessert he comes back as “the preacher” and teaches his son. Leto the 2 did nothing wrong.
Found the Fish Speaker!
I have a feeling that Denis is gonna make a major change with Chani, I think she’s gonna betray Paul and work with the Guild and Bene Gesserit
@jbiz979 After he is resurrected from the Water of Life he says about Chani "She'llcome around eventually" like he foresaw it already. I'm certain she'll be back with him in the next movie.
@@thetrashiestpanda That’s far too cryptic. We have no idea what will transpire prior to Chani “coming around” whatever that means
@jbiz979 I just don't believe Denis would stray that far from the source material. Making Chani feel betrayed felt like a necessary emotional change and doesn't deviate from the book wildly. Having her betray Paul like that would be way too different from Messiah.
Did anyone else notice actor Everett McGill (the 1984 Dune's Stilgar) as the Sardukaur leader in the throne room when the Fremen break in? Great cameo!!!
No way!
@Elatenl his face is so distinct, if u see dune 2 a second time, let me know what u think. I recognized him immediately, he's the sardukaur standing at the door before the fremen come in. He walks right into the camera, big close up. I understand credits, but I think it's an Easter egg.
@@Nightsight971 I watched the movie again, but in imax, that's not hum
@Daniel-tr6qo ya, it may not be, but its the first thing I thought of when I saw the character
@@Nightsight971 it would have been awesome to have some people from the 80s dune to cameo in dune. Would have been awesome
So in the books there are these devices called suspensors that allow objects and people to hover. The Baron has one of these suspensors because he’s so obese that he could not move by himself.
So in the visual adaptations since 1984 the Baron doesn’t just hover he floats and flys around for some reason. And it seems that Denis has expanded the usage of this floating technology to the sardaukar and the Harkonnen troops. When in reality in the books there is just this hovering just above the ground tech.
The hover-tech is in the books. Harkonen artillery rounds have the tech installed, and they are also used instead of parachutes.
The hovering just about the ground bit is still how it seems to work, mostly. Like, they don't just fly around freely. It's mostly used to slowly float down, and when they go up, it's not free flight, they had to coast alongside a surface.
When Hawat is captured in the book it is from sardaukar troops descending from the cliffs behind them using suspensors. It's the last thing he sees before losing consciousness. The battle leading up to his capture is my favorite part of the book, when the fremen speak candidly of killing sardaukar, even capturing them to Hawats amazement. A little sad they didn't portray it, but the narrative in that chapter was present in other ways.
They use it for lamps called glow globes. So its probably a very prevalent tech. So like Joe said you can go to the store and buy it.
I think they're saving the spacing guild for Dune Messiah as there's literally an important Spacing Guild character that shows up in Messiah
I really wanna see those little freaks through Denis vision
In terms of the design of armor, ships, and behaviors, Atreides are supposed to be birds while the Harkonnens are bugs. And bugs sometimes show up when Harkonnens or danger is near, ie Duncan death scene.
Makes sense, Atreides flag is the eagle
Paul decided not to take the Golden Path but that was his destiny. Paul knew what needed to be done and how but he also saw that his son would indeed save humanity via the Golden Path. Dune is about many things but one of the main themes is that free choice is more illusion than reality.
Regarding the atomics, in the book it was mentioned that there is a treaty where the Great Houses cannot use atomics against each other. If a House violates the treaty, all Houses will declare war on the offending House. Paul points out that hitting the mountains beside the Emperor's encampment will not violate the treaty and disrupt the shields. I do agree with explanation of clearing the mountains for the worms.
This was an absolute spectacle. They might as well hand out next year's cinematography Oscar to this film.
Last Samurai is an absolute masterpiece (one of Cruise's best movies). Tom Cruise isn't even a "white savior", as the samurai actually save him (severe PTSD and alcoholic), plus he doesn't save them as they all get mowed down by Gatling guns (sorry spoilers but you should have seen it by now), they are the last of the samurai. But honestly a character from X culture interacting with a never before encountered Y culture offers incredible opportunities to tell stories, and the character automatically acts as a conduit for the audience member. It shouldn't be sullied by a few haters who want to boil things down into simple binary good bad narrative tropes.
Also The freemen are fictional ethnic group, Paul is not representing any real world ethnic group or European people or nation and he’s far far in the future . He’s from a fictional planet caladan . So to bring up the white savior thing doesn’t apply or make sense. Especially when you have weird looking hairless folks that look like the harkonnens. Who sits there and says “oh he just a white guy”. SMH 😂
I once heard someone argue that The Last Samurai was absolutely a white savior story... it's just not Tom Cruise who's the white savior. It's actually the other white people bringing the Japanese guns and modern technology to "save" them from their old ways and culture.
It’s also worth mentioning that the real samurai weren’t fighting for their way of life, just for the privilege of being able to do what they want to people beneath them without consequences - like killing random people for perceived insults.
@@ProjectMathesar I know Last Samurai is not a super historically accurate movie, but judged as a movie and story, it's a masterpiece. Japanese audiences loved it as well, for a long time it was top 10 highest grossing movie in Japan still top 20 last I checked.
What if a 16 year old was reading… spoliers yo!
In the books The artillery was only used on the Atreides when they were attacked by the harkonnens. The Baron explicitly states that afterwards the artillery be taken away from Arrakis.
The technology about the gravity-defying floating aspect is Denis Villeneuve taking Dune Universe existing technology of the Holtzman Field - which is what powers the Shields (body and ships, "the slow blade penetrates the shield"), and what keeps the floating lights "Glowglobes" (seen in Part 1 in the palace on Caladan that follows Paul as he walks to meet with Reverend Mother Mohaim to be tested), suspended, and also is involved with "folding space" which is what the Heighliners do for fast space travel.
I would watch this twice. There are rarely movies of this caliber that would let the audience watch it more than once
The grandfather reveal is in the first book I'm pretty sure
Yeah it is, either at the moment Leto dies and Paul huffs spice or later after his coma
It happens when Paul and Jessica are in the tent in the desert.
I know nothing of the books but when I heard that I let out a "what?!" in the theatre!
@@manoz6194 Same. Book fans will appreciate it, but for me it was like the "You're a Palpatine" bulls**t 😖
@@phaolo6Lucas completely ripped off Dune for Star wars. Its well documented.
Dune was a huge sensation when Lucas was a teenager - he took the Dune lore and warped it for mass consumption.
OJ constantly changing the pronunciation of "Harkonnen" is hilarious.
So in the book, House Atredes forces from the Homeworld plus houses who hate the Emperor ally with Paul.
Well the guy that feyed fights in the arena was in the first one. He is also the films fight choreographer so he could probably beat him in real life since he trained him lol.
No wonder he moved better than everyone else. Bro was basically ip man in this movie
@@ByakuyaKB i knew i recognized that dude because he was in the first film. Then i was like holy shit he was the villain in shanghai noon. Shame hes been a mostly behind the scenes guy since then
@@nightking0130who/what were those guys in the all black horned suits protecting Feyd Rautha Baron? Monsters/demons or just harkonnen soldiers dressed to intimidate?
@@jdfoster23 I have no clue I guess they are like wranglers to keep them from running cause they have hooks. They weren’t in the books from what I remember. Also the Harkonnen have hair in the books they aren’t vampire looking all sapped of energy.
@@nightking0130 oh okay, I haven’t read the books, but I’m thinking about doing so. I’m really intrigued by the lore of this universe. I thought they were monsters/creatures cause at one point it sounded like they started making some strange noises with their teeth and growling and such but I could be wrong.
The Bene Tleilax and their gholas , face dancers , Axlotl tanks is what makes book 4,5,6 so fascinating and esoteric , the dynamics male-female relationships portrayed by the various houses in stark contrast to the extreme " girl power" of the Honored Matres who were the descendants of the God Emporor's all females personal guards. What makes the story of of Leto II grandiose is that eventually he planned his own demise at a specific time and place to make sure humanity follows his golden path and protects the Atreides bloodline with an addition of special power through their genes.
ah yes the Fish Speakers. Sadly we wont get to the God Emperor.
@purefoldnz3070 You never know... 10-15 years from now, if the movies keep being successful... we can hope 🤞
@@charlottegerken4477I don't think Denis wants to try to adapt a man turning into a sandworm because he likes his movies to be set in realism which is why they are so damn good. You believe these places exist along with the characters but a human turning into a worm??? Nah don't think that would work with his style.
Dune ends with God Emperor. After that is cringe as f.
@@gerardotejada2531 it goes off the rails thats for sure
I feel like excluding Alia is just another way how "unadaptable" the story is but also could be because it would've made the movie way longer. All the nods to Messiah and Abomination were nice too.
Calling Paul instead of Alia an abomination loses its original power
@@powerofpop8747 I think she did that in the 1984 version
@@powerofpop8747yes but technically Paul is also an abomination since he was a generation early for the Kwisach Haderach. It’s just glossed over because he doesn’t lose control like Alia. But yes it wasn’t an entirely necessary line to say in the moment
@@manynukes11 Pretty sure the reverend mother also called Alia an abomination in the TV miniseries, which honestly did a pretty damn good job with Alia both in Dune and in Childrens of Dune.
I would love an OJ review of the Sci Fi's channels Dune and Children of Dune haha
People need to like this to show the Joes to do it!!
It’s called the Shield Wall, and the plan was to use atomics to blow a hole in them for the worms to attack.
31:02 the apprehension comes from the moment he drinks the poison.
Cuz she knew that would change him.
That's when he awakens and now goes full emperor mode.
Cuz he did a Dr strange move, and says there is a very narrow path to victory and he must take it.
I don’t usually give praise like this, but that scene of Paul approaching millions of his followers as he steps into his power…that was the coolest, most exhilarating entrance I’ve ever seen in a movie.
But that's the point. You're feeling this but Paul is wrong. He's not the savior
I’m aware of this lol
@@stevenshar1233Paul is the messiah but that’s not necessarily a good thing
two things paul has going for him. he gives all freman his new way of fighting called the wierding way. a combanation of all his masters, jesica benegeserit, dunken sword masters of ginaz, thufer mentat master of assasins and gurney haleck. this puts his fighters on a new lv compared to every other fighting force in the universe. 2nd is he can see the future clear as looking into a mirror...
Main "sin" of the movie is the time period which is below 8 months. In books it was I think 5 years. Paul turn into fremen, start to be fedaikin, unite all siches, changed whole tradiition system of fremens in couple of months? Come on.
Also in original book Paul's marriage with Irulan had also a purpose of disrespect for benegeserit because there will be no relationship with her apart from being on paper. It hurts me that the love between Chani and Paul was turned into one big manipulation. Not to mention lack of they firstborn who died during the harkonens attack. Without their relationship there is no Messiah of dune, no children of dune (because how?). Either way thank you for review guys.
Paul mentions that he foresees Chani will come around. So perhaps her leaving is just temporary and to add tension to the relationship plot. Hopefully she comes back as she needs to be there for the plot of the next movie per the book.
Can the two characters simply not get back together?
All it takes is a few minutes to fix the children issue. This is all assuming they want to take the narrative all the way there.
The old asian guy Feyd Rautha fought in the arena was Roger Yuan who also is fight Choreographer for this movie.
The drop float thing is kind of from the books - it's a suspensor field just like Baron H uses to float and glow globes hover.
Chani is pretty consistent, especially compared to Paul, who betrays every promise. She even tells him she will love him as long as he stays who he is. He doesn't. He tells her he wants to be their equal, then breaks that promise by choosing to become their Messiah and the Duke of Arrakis.
I don't think you understand.
Paul sees then future and he sees what has to be done. BUT he is a coward and doesn't want to do it.
So SPOILERS....
His son does it later.
@@mrfreeman2911 You've said nothing I didn't know already
How does that contradict anything I stated in my comment?
@@Ramschat because chani rewrite is shit.
@@mrfreeman2911 It's a good change. Stops empty-headed viewers from thinking that Paul is the hero of the story, which Frank Herbert literally stated isn't the case
59:01 The idea that the fabled "Enemy" teased in the later Dune books are AI or robots is an invention of Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, and was never implied to be anything of the sort by Frank Herbert himself. Also it was not Frank Herbert's intent that the Butlerian Jihad was a humans vs robot "War Against the Machines" ripped straight right out of Terminator.
well what was his original idea then?
@BeczaBot No one actually knows. This is in part because the alleged notes by Frank Herbert that involve his final Dune book (aka Dune 7) haven't been released to the public, like what Christopher Tolkien did with his father's work.
7:00 Yes, I'm glad someone made that reference, I turned to my friends in the cinema and said "Yes! We are all individuals!"
God Emperor of Dune is definitely something that I’d love to see in live action for sure. Before that, Seeing the future Dune Sequel with Dune Messiah and Children of Dune would be very fun too especially since Ghanima is the one who gives birth to many children and Sionna Atreides is one of Ghanima’s descendants and has a special ability that’s different from Leto II and Paul and then she teams up with a Duncan to take down Leto. Oh and I can’t wait to see Paul get blind in Dune Messiah and to see Jason Mamoa return as Duncan resurrected
Leto II wants to get taken down.
People keep forgetting that he sees the future.
and he knows his death leads to the golden path.
Paul is not a bad dude. The Golden Path is the only way for Humanity to survive what is to come! i.e. presence empowered hunter killers and AI
It helped against the Honored Matre before Brian's stuff.
That doesn't make someone good.
@@JohnnyZenithNo you’re right but we know paul for a long time before he’s forced to become the messiah and he’s a good dude with a good heart who fights against his destiny for a long time
Needed more Battle Pug
They used the atomics to open up a hole in the Rim Wall. A wall that blocks off the Imperial Basin, Arakeen, from the open stretches of desert. This allows the Fremen to ride the worms straight up to the Emperor.
also in the books, Gurney joins the smugglers
So something I picked up, maybes it me but I'm curious if others felt the same way.....but after Paul drinks the water of life, he reminds me of Eren Yeager once he possessed the ability to see the future, for Paul felt colder and is giving me the same red flags as Eren. Idk if anyone here is both a AOT and Dune fan, bur if so, am I alone in this feeling?
Paul Atreides is basically OG Eren for sure. Even down to the fanatical followers.
I thought he was going full on Anakin Skywalker sith eyes and all!
You underestimate my power!!!!! I'm the chosen one yet you don't give me a spot on the council! Only I can bring balance to the force!
My favorite part was Paul telling Chani he didn’t want to go south because he’d lose her but she says he will never lose her so he goes south and then loses her
The action scenes are economical and not overlong, sparing budget that would have gone to additional special effects. Giving room to scenes involving politics, religion, romance, culture, and contemplation-letting them breathe. Perfect world creation worthy of Frank Herbert’s vision…
I'm super satisfied with the visual representations of everything, and you're always left wanting more which is a good thing.
The Seetch, the temple, arena, the emperor's ship, all very striking visuals that convey the absolute alien nature of the differing cultures and the power each of them holds.
Part 3 probably will show more of the Guild since you have the one who's part of the group. Part 3 is going to start showing the weird stuff of the universe
By weird what do you mean?
@@jdfoster23 Ghola, facedancers, guild navigators, his powers, deep dives into the politics
@@micahblackwell5717 can I ask, who/what were those guys in the all black horned suits protecting Feyd Rautha Baron during his arena battle? Monsters/demons or just harkonnen soldiers dressed to intimidate?
@jdfoster23 I believe they where just harkonnen handlers/distractors to make sure he won and that his opponents stayed drugged. He didn't want them to interfere so he could prove himself. In the book the fight was alot closer until he used his poison knife and his opponent was more important
@@micahblackwell5717 I thought they were monsters/creatures cause at one point it sounded like they started making some strange noises with their teeth and growling and such lol but I could be wrong.
Jessica being Harkonen is in the first book, btw
both movies are the first book too, for those who don't know.
I find it amazing that people have such a hard time comprehending the duality of man. In his mind, Paul's, he is no better than any another Freman. He is equal to them. But in the eyes of the emperor, and the other houses, that means nothing to them. He HAS to proclaim himself as the Duke of Arikis, and a contender to the throne, because that is what they will understand.
12x book reader here. they have suspensores in book but using it in open desert is death sentence like shield because it is based off minipulations of frequency or vibrations, which calls worms...
In the book Paul tells Chani he loves her and that he plans to marry the Emperor's daughter to secure control. Paul tells Chani the Emperor's daughter will never share his bed. (It is her resentment that brings her to betray Paul in the future)
The reason the fremen can conquer the galaxy is because Paul controls space travel after hoarding the spice and making the spacing guild submit. It’s not a scale issue.
I feel like these dudes never read the books and have just read wiki summaries and watched videos.
Also revealing the relations with the harkonnens is in the first book. It’s Alia who reveals it when she kills him, it’s not a reveal in messiah
I agree, but that's not in the movie and ends up being weird.(I know it's for the fans, but what about people that had never read the books before.)
@@notalpharius2562 "Who controls the spice, controls the universe" it's in the movie. It's just a subtext, that most people (dumb ones) won't get.
the movies aren't the books.
there's more to it than just controlling the planet though, like keeping the planet hostage as the source of spice with a finger on the 'button'. without ability to more or less wipe the spice the guild could just get everyone to the planet to take it.
conquering the galaxy in quick span is still a scale issue though. there's over ten thousand planets to conquer, so most planets would need to just submit when they show up or rather submit by telephone before they even come.
It is not explain in the movie. And more to that, spice as important to space travel is only mention once in the first movie. I don't even remember if Spacing guild is mentionned at all in part 2. They should have included the explanation in the movie, would have make the ending more dramatic, because watchers only will just feel like that part 3 will be just wars between Paul and Major House, but it is not, the war is already won on Arrakis, it will be just extermination
@VaeSapiens wow. Imagine thinking people are dumb becouse they didnt read a book some dude who was high on shrooms 24/7 in 60s wrote.
When you guys were talking about the honorable battle ~48mins in he was doing it in the ways of the Fremen, he made the challenge and champions were chosen just like when he fought Jamis.
U said it all!❤ I was Dune 2 last night. Only time will tell but I completely agree that it’s well on its way to being a modern classic and the Empire Strikes Back of 2024! I saw it in Dolby Cinema format and will be going to see it again in IMAX over the following weekend.
Angry Joe talking about Dune is about as ridiculous as I imagined
You feel better?
No one cares about you
Well, compared to the first one, he doesn't reference the Lynch version AS much......so....that's a small improvement at least
@@DaFrenchOne🤡🤦🏼♂️
The Spacing Guild totally gone AWOL
In the 1984 film it does explain the Fremen naming convention, Paul asks what the shadow on the moon is called or the marking to which the fremen commander responds "we call that one Muad dib"
In the movie Paul is hidden with the Fremen for a months. But in the book, Paul is with them for years. He even has a son with Chani. I'm interested to see how this changing timeline is going to affect the plot going forward. There have been a lot of changes from the book, but so far I'm still really enjoying the movies. I think the changes are still enjoyable.
Well only ppl who havent read the book say that its a white savor story. They did a good job potraying that Jessica persued this path out of nessecity not some white savor stuff. They needed to survive so she used what was already layed out.
The only way to ensure they live was to use the freeman religion set up by the sisterhood, and to make a play on the thrown since it was the Emperor that wanted them dead.
Chani blasting the Harkonnen trooper with the shoulder launcher s
at point blank range is so much like Helldivers 2 😂
the jetpack thing was probably how the sardukar captured the atreides mentat (not in the film). It sort of said that they started coming down from the sky and started throwing knives around. but I don't think it was explicitly said they had anti gravity gadjets.
Tell me more about the Harkonians, the Freemen, Gunney, and the Thornocopters, haha. At first I was like that's not right, by the end it had me rollin
You see how you pronouce the "u" in "bun"? Well that's how you pronounce the "eu" in Villeneuve (kinda like Vilnuv'). You can do this Joe!
Nonsense. Its pronounced Villy-New-Vee.
Stilgar is the Morpheus from Matrix in this film
I'm not sure if those floating devices are in the Dune book. Jessica mentions 'suspensors' at one point as an easier way to get down a cliff face, which maybe is where they come from and why they always make the Baron fly in the adaptations (as he is described as needing them to walk).
I really loved it.... I think the only thing maybe missed (or maybe not enough time to put in) would be a showcase on how good the Saudakar are.. maybe it would be shown in the future movie
Jesus Christ guys I love these and been a fan for a decade, but for the love of God have some structure in the discussion. It's just all over the place. Either discuss character arcs, or discuss the story chronologically.
Feyd and the baron did kiss in this movie though
the movie is saved
@@riner9 🙄
love the cene where he sillences the witch with his voice and she gets nocked over
The explain in the Houses Prequels that Emperor Corrino doubled and trippled the number of Sardukar Legions which resulted in a lack of quality.
Bring on an HBO series of those books. I'd watch it.
Those books aren't canon to Frank Herbert's story. They were written by his son and another author.
His speech near the end was dope as fuck !
Funny that Elvis was in the film
& I never imagined that Thanos & Willy Wonka would team up to fight him
Elvis is dead. You're talking about an actor who played him. Actors appear in movies to get paid.
@@PasserMontanus I can tell you were always the life of the party
I do miss the weirding modules (the sounds amplified blasters) from the 1984 version.
Although I love this new version of Dune, I still think the 80s one nailed it! Though I do think that it was rushed, and they tried cramming too much info into 1.5 hours. No wonder people were left confused.
But still. This new version of Dune is awesome!
The weirding modules weren't in the book, so they weren't in this movie. The 80s movie missed the core themes of Dune completely and made Paul a superhero.
@@stephengrant4841 and it starts raining on Arrakis for no reason. Byebye worms I guess.
Nice video as always Joe now I’m im just waiting on your video for the new halo episode
Book reader here. No, in the first book they never use suspensor tech in battles. But I thought it was very smart to use it in the movie. It's one of the better decisions. In fact, a detail I didn't notice the first time I watched Dune 1 is that Idaho uses a suspensor belt, and at one point right before he jumps unto an enemy, he switches it on, on his back. it's a shot that's not even a second so super easily missed. Suspenser tech is very common in the Dune world. I mean literally everyone and their mom, including the Fremen seems to use suspenser lamps. Which are the floating lamps you see. But the only person that uses suspenser tech on their person is Baron Harkonnen, to support his weight.
Two-thirds of Dune Part Two was masterful but seriously mixed about the ending.
The end seemed to wrap up too fast and felt cheap in places. Like Rabban's death.
@@titusorelius9458Rabban's death doesn't bother me at all. He was a coward hiding behind his name, power and a impsoing figure. His demise in the book is also really anticlimactic.
Yeah, you're right but for those that don't understand that it will seem very anti climatic. They make him look pathetic in the gladiator scene, drugging the adversaries. I get what they are trying to do, so I actually like it! @@Peer165
@@giggsy42You're talking about Fayde. Rabban was the guy that Gurney(Josh Brolin) killed
I didn't read the books, but it felt like the movie had quite a few missing scenes and some weird ones - ex. what was the purpose of that "spy left behind scene?"