Modders Say 'Starfield' Can't Be Fixed...
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- Опубліковано 27 гру 2023
- 👉 All my links: linktr.ee/lukestephens 👈
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Starfield is a 2023 action role-playing game developed by Bethesda Game Studios and published by Bethesda Softworks. In the game, the player character joins a group of space explorers who must venture to various corners of the galaxy to acquire mysterious artifacts. The game features an open world in the form of an area within the Milky Way galaxy, containing both fictional and non-fictional planetary systems. The planetary surface for most of the planets are procedurally generated by the game. The game takes place in a space-themed setting, and is the first new intellectual property developed by Bethesda in 25 years. It was described by director Todd Howard as "Skyrim in space". Like Bethesda's previous games, it was powered by the Creation Engine, though it was heavily modified to accommodate the game's procedural generation system. Active development of the game started following the release of Fallout 4 in 2015. Announced in 2018, the game was delayed several times. It was released for Windows and Xbox Series X/S on September 6, 2023. Starfield received generally positive reviews from critics, with particular praise for its open world, setting, and soundtrack, though its story and exploration divided critics. It was also a commercial success.
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Links:
STL: A Startfield mod allows you travel between planets:
• STL: A Startfield mod ...
The COMPLETE History of Minecraft's Far Lands (2009-2022):
• The COMPLETE History o...
Visualizing Floats:
www.gamedeveloper.com/program...
Starfield modders are trying to join up maps into complete planets, cue memories of Minecraft's Far Lands:
www.rockpapershotgun.com/star...
Modders Discussion:
www.nexusmods.com/starfield/m...
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#gaming #xbox #starfield - Ігри
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Red flaaaagggg
i didn't see your pol, so i'm going to put my vote in now.
bgs knows better than most, its funny people think they need to be "convinced." If only they would listen to the customer! lmao. They know and don't care. Negative feedback is just something to be managed by PR and not learned from. Tbc, the braintrust over there is 100% comfortable taking their well earned reputation to the middle of the ocean and sinking it, if its means a good quarter and bonuses all around. That's just business.
random question, your tee shirts look pretty nice, what brand if you dont mind me asking? id like to pick some up.
@@lifeofdylan1766
what is a red flag that your talking about? sorry but without context, your comment will always be taken out of context when there is no context to draw off of.
Bethesda modders not being able to fix the game is the gaming equivalent to the smartest kid in class panicking during a test they studied for
Nah it's more the modders read the paper, put it down and walked out the door, saying that it's a waste of their time.
The paper is blank, except for some circles.
America first is inevitable
This particular thing doesnt need fixing. This insatiable urge to make every planet a seamless vast empty is strange. The galaxy is the "planet" in this game, and the planets are the POIs. People gotta stop trying to stick a round peg in a square hole just cause thats what they're used to. Its a new IP, with a new way to explore. Its not broken just because it isnt the same static gamespace crammed with "cool statue" or "broken down house" or "dryad tree" pois.
@@whrussy Hi Pete Hines alt account!
@@whrussy It isn't even the locked off planetary exploration, it is the FACT that EVERY aspect of the game was done better by someone else. It is the FACT that THIS is NOT the game they told us they were giving us. It is boring, more than just "Empty planet boring". Heck, even having SOMETHING to discover after 5 minutes of walking would be good
You know it's bad when Bethesda's best employees can't fix the game.
This is what happens when you have Nepotism and DEI in the workplace. You chase away your talent.
'Fixing (and heck, MAKING) a game' is a job for coders...
And i'm convinced they largely didn't even HAVE those employed for them at all for about two decades!
@@mkzherothat happened at 343 they had to bring some in to fix halo infinite anyways
Laughed out loud. Thank you.
More like volunteers
I saw on Steam earlier they had some kind of awards for different games and Starfield of all things got "most innovative gameplay" I just started laughing lmao
Same. Like WTF? "Innovative" with that kind of gameplay is not it, in my opinion.
@@Asriel_Cypher ikr, I think it's either ironic troll votes or hordes of -brainwashed- loyal Bethesda fans (or a mix of the two)
@@xxxCrackerJack501xxx
Even the Steam Review mentioned it, man. LMAO
Oh heavens. This game does not deserve that, come on now... That is insane. I find it funny that half of their fans are split. Finding the boring exploration to be "fine" as if they've never played or tried any other space exploration game, like No Man's Sky.
@@Asriel_Cypher I'm honestly surprised so many longtime Bethesda fans have finally woken up to realize what a horrible company they are that does _not_ deserve their fervent loyalty. The only way Bethesda has been "innovative" are in egregious new forms of monetization lol
One review was very telling of the kind of people who actually enjoy this game though it essentially boiled down to "you have to use your imagination" which is something I found/heard a lot with Fallout 4 and Skyrim in the past. I had friends say "Fallout 4 is great to play, I just pretend Shaun doesn't exist" or an ex-girlfriend of mine that *loved* Skyrim and defended it/BSG _but_ she only played when it was modded beyond recognition (literally custom story quests and everything) and that never made sense to me, like if people have to use their imagination to immerse themselves and pretend the game is better than it is or only enjoy it for other peoples additions (mods) then why even play that game in the firstplace?
@@xxxCrackerJack501xxx
This. Every bit of this. I never understood why they rated the game so damn high, when the game HAS or REQUIRED Mods, in order to fix their games, for it to be good. Since what is normally expected, is that the game is already GOOD. After that, Mods enhanced that experienced. Not FIX IT. There's a difference but Skyrim was rated so highly despite so many issues that ARE NOT FIXED, UP UNTIL NOW. Which I find baffling for a "AAA-studio Game Dev" here. Since in my standards, this isn't a good quality. It's below but they seem to tolerate it.
So now, they're starting to see this truth, and their imagination or jaded eyes, fooled them into thinking that this is a good game. I find that really fascinating. Of how crazy that they can be.
Outer Wilds apparently had to deal with the floating point error (its game world is a seamless solar system) and did so by moving the world around the character rather than the reverse. The character was always at the center of the game's world.
That's also a better game in many, many other ways lol. Like decisions actually meaning something and having consequences..
@@TalesOfWarone of my favorite games tbh
Amazing game
So, Dr. Farnsworth worked there?
There is a great KSP way of going around floating point error. Your universe coordinate consists of 2 coordinates. 1st is your precise coordinates inside current instance, it is used for physics and graphics. 2nd is instance coordinates from center of space systems, which used to render planets and calculate trajectories
Also in Raft your raft is the center of the world
You know it's bad when even modders are done lmaoo
Truth! Facts me!
And the funniest part of the situation is you have the Starfield defenders say Cyberpunk 2077 needed time to be in a playable state. I always defeat those people with an uncounterable statement: Cyberpunk's story, characters, world, art style and density was solid. It simply needed polishing. You can't polish something if you don't have it. Starfield is a 2010 title released in 2023.
@@noobbotgaming2173 Also CD PROJEKT RED is a reputable company and they were gonna do everything they could to fix their game's disastrous launch. Bethesda just don't care and don't bother to fix their games, let the modders do it.
Starfield is a beta game that’s not finished
Cyberpunk has a amazing story solid design choices and committed to everything it did unlike starfield cyberpunk was buggy but was still great
you know its bad when the game is tried for a few hours. the nameless faceless numberless group of modders you refer to has nothing to do with it.
You can't fix something that doesn't exist.
- Exploration
- RPG
- Meaningful story
Doesn't exist in Starfield
- Characters with more depth than a thimble.
Starfield is just a walking simulator. That's why they didn't want to give you rovers because then it wouldn't even be that. 😂
@@JediKnightoftheSnyderCult It would have broken the engine, even though autists modders got it to work in New Vegas.
Starfield is a boneless chicken
You actually can... with mods. But if mods are a problem, on the other hand...
It blows my mind that planet exploration in this game is akin to what we had in mass effect 2. And at least in mass effect we had a vehicle. The main difference being that instead of hand crafted fishbowls With three points of interest, BGS gave us Procedurally generated fishballs with three points of interest.
Tbf I played through ME recently and there is more detail on those planets than all of Starfield. It's wild.
To be fair to BSG, Mass Effect 2 was using a far, far more advanced engine than Starfield. Unreal Engine 3.
@@TalesOfWar😂 good one
ME2 has a much better story and writing, too.
You can literally read information and lore even on unexplorable planets in mass effect. It will tell you if it was a mining planet or a planet with colonies and give you actual world building even if it isnt more gameplay
Goddammit. I'm Bethesda game veteran so I knew all along we weren't going to get good storytelling or deep roleplaying opportunities, and I was okay with that. The two things I was counting on was A) a good exploration experience and B) modders going crazy and using the game as a basis for amazing stuff. Then the game comes out and I learn that Bethesda failed at the two things they're actually supposed to be very good at.
How do you make essentially the same game for twenty years, earning critical acclaim, a loyal fanbase and financial success, and still somehow fail to understand what you're doing right?
I think it's because they focus more on the tv show
All the Elder Scrolls modders should get together and just make their own game from scratch.
They absolutely have the skills, time, and resources to make a better game foundation than Bethesda.
@@Yora21they absolutely do not have the time to all get together and CREATE a whole video game you are crazy man lol
@@basilciccone1679 Tamriel Rebuilt claims to have started working on their giant mod pretty much right when Morrowind first came out in 2002. They do have time.
Creation Kit isn't out for Starfield yet bro how're they supposed to "go crazy" with no mod tools? This video is misinformation
Bethesda just went one step further and not only let modders fix their game but their whole engine. Todd really is a visionary.
Todd's vision is to save the engine into the 30th century.
@@alexcruba4928 Imagine, 30th century holodeck and AI made by Todd's game engine. Lol.
@@WhyteLis21 the 30th century game can play Starfield which can play fallout 76, which can play fallout 4, which can play elder scrolls 6, which can play Skyrim, which can play oblivion, which can play fallout 3, which can play Doom.
@@elijahaitaok8624 Ah, the old backward compatibility, eh? 👍
@@WhyteLis21 not just backward compatibility, but a bit of forward compatibility too
I think its important to put into context the issue that much smaller studios with Hello Games and Frontier Developments were able to achieve seamless massive scale planets over 6 years ago. With Bethesda’s size and countless other studios to get assistance from, it was absolutely a solvable problem they thought they didn’t need to solve.
Let's just be real they wanted to save money by using the same engine they used for skyrim although it's not fit for this type of game. Todd Howard himself got high on Skyrim's success (even releasing it again and again) and could not see that the engine's limitations when it comes to making a space game.
It IS a bigger problem for Bethesda though, they have a massive amount of tech debt, which is entirely their fault because they've been dragging their feet updating the engine forever, but changing an established engine, and by necessities, its tools, so drastically, they probably might as well just start from scratch again. But again, everyone there is probably so intimately familiar with the Gamebryo engine's quirks and strengths, that doing that would basically mean EVERYONE would have to be retrained.
I'm not making excuses for them tho, this is just why I think they made that decision, even if it was the wrong one.
Bethesda have chained themselves to Creation Engine, and that thing's going to drag them down.
@@TheMadmanAndre Wouldn't have been so bad if they did a better job keeping it updated to modern standards and features, but that would actually require them to spend money on it, so of course they didn't.
I really hated how they decided how they'd do civilization in Starfield and the fact the biggest cities are so small is a big point of it.
I also really hate that they went with the no sentient aliens type of game to...As that makes it even more boring of a space game and means they didn't wanna create more unique species unlike there other type of aliens where they seemed to take a lot from other space themed things.
TLDR; one of the problems with Starfield, in his opinion, is the fishbowl effect when you load into a planet. And this problem is something he would really like to see fixed but it isn't possible due to how the game is built.
He spends the rest of the time explaining the specifics.
Thanks
If only he could explain those specifics once, instead of repeating every point over and over.
The "fishbowl effect" is literally the least problematic things about the game.
Gunplay is garbage (the game has basically no melee), space fights are garbage, ship building is garbage, base building is an even bigger garbage, quests are garbage, cities are garbage, all the three random POIs are garbage, the flora and fauna are garbage (there's like a total of 15 animals that ONLY vary in names planet-to-planet). The fact the game is a loading screen simulator on top of that only exacerbates all of those problems.
I played starfield for the first time in 3 months today and there still aren’t city maps. The fact that a flat render couldn’t be implemented in that time makes me believe there will be nothing beyond shattered space… whatever TF that ends up being.
Starfield had so much potential. The best way I've described it is Bethesda wanted to give the modders an open sandbox...but they expected the modders to bring the sand too.
And the box.
What potential? Where? Building an open world space game has potential as an idea but you have to implement it.
The idea you had of Starfield had potential. The idea you had was an illusion. Bethesda did not make what you thought would have potential. Starfield, the one we got, the way that it is, never had potential.
The only potential this game had was realized. To be a joke that opened the eyes of many people.
bro what potential did u see in fast traveling to every quest and a loading screen for every building
If starfields reception isn't a wake up call for Bethesda I don't know what more we can do to prevent ES6 from being mediocre and forgettable. The developers that made the best Bethesda has to offer are long gone so it appears. Great video!
That's kinda all game studios. All the people who make ubisoft, Bethesda, bungie, rockstar, etc...
They are all gone or retired.... so much knowledge and skill of game making forgotten.
Woulda thought FO76 was enough, why anyone's expecting this to be any different is beyond me 😂
Wake up call? They made insane cash. They will keep releasing trash for as long as people buy it
I feel the same way about Bungie. D2 has had some good stuff, but a lot of crap. I've heard people suggest giving Halo back to Bungie, but I really don't think it would matter. Everyone who made Halo what it was is long gone, especially after the recent purge. I'm waiting to see how Marathon turns out, but I can't get too excited.
it should be a wake up for every company that takes 10yrs to make a game, how can Ubisoft a much poorer company make a game as big as Valhalla in 3yrs while Starfield takes 10? just the main questline of Valhalla is 3 times bigger than Starfield.
EVE handled the "distance" float thing by having "grids". If you went to far, it would make a new grid with a new center.
This did cause SOME issues where some grids could be manipulated to make things invisible. (if two grids were near each other, you couldn't see anything in the other grid), but they made the grids much larger and able to merge, and it was mostly solved, or at least, too difficult to abuse.
Oh, it was not too difficult to abuse, people did it XD
can also attempt more complicated grid system where you have staggered grids to avoid issues are the boundaries. but that is the more realistic solution instead of switching from float to doubles for everything.
@@Selrahcnedder Believe me, not particularly viable. EVE has a rather fine Grid system, rarely if ever breaks and it is simple.
A good way to visualize floats for those wondering..
Imagine you have 5 whole numbers, and 1 decimal point. You can arrange them however you want to make numbers, but the catch is the decimal point.
You can put it at the front and make a really small number like .00001
Or you can put it near the end and get a really big number, like 10000.
But you can't have both at the same time. Aka, you can have 0.1 or 98754, but you can't have 98754.1
This is basically how floats work, but they use binary and some low-level wizardry beyond the scope of a youtube comment xP
EDIT: This is just a simplified example. Real floats use 32bits of information and can store numbers MUCH larger than 10000, but eventually you will reach a point where you can have big numbers, or precision, but not both.
yep. this is how they work. no one had planet sized grids in mind when they created the terrain-engine for the early Bethesda games. and no one with authority and technical knowledge and balls has been able to convince the management that it needs to be updated in the years that followed. so here we are.
@@jazzochannel Even if they did could you imagine them keeping their jobs after the fucking shareholders learn they authorised it. The gaming industry is so toxic and broken it'd be funny if it wasn't people's lives and careers being ruined because of their shitty practices.
@jazzochannel I find insane that they were like, "Yeah, lets use an ancient engine with less updates than necessary for our most complex and ambitious game"
Like seriously, wtf
Modders should not make Bethesda’s life easier.
Considering how the Bethesda leadership acts entitled to the modding community, I don't think they deserve it.
More like "Modders shouldn't be doing their jobs and for free."
@@haisibanaag1563shhhhhh don't talk about money or Todd's gonna come for his cut!
@@kingvinoda3896 yup the dredded creation club.
Modders should sieze the means of production 😂
My problem is that even if we get whole huge planets to explore, I just see no reason to do such a thing because it would just be empty and devoid of anything interesting.
They should have just had one single planet to explore, and even then it would have been mostly empty.
is that your problem? or is that everyones problem and we all already know this and we all have already said this countless times? its like saying “my problem is that every night i get tired and need to sleep until the next morning”.
Elite did "loneliness" and exploring empty planets really well because you could fly across them, scout, look for signs of activity (crashed ships, alien bases etc)
The reason Starfield does so poorly in this regard is every player knows its all fake - you're never feeling like you're finding stuff. You're having content loaded in for you to enjoy - it's a system designed by people who've forgotten the very nature of why exploration/immersion made their games successful. They've created almost like a souless AI version of what "open world" means.
We all know all games are fake, but Starfield exposes it and rubs it in players faces lol
@@SobeCrunkMonster i do indeed have to sleep until the next morning correct
@@apoorvatripathi7304 Only having one planet kind of defeats the purpose of using space as a backdrop for an open-world RPG though. Still, 10 or less worlds would have been more than enough. Honestly 3-5 would be a good number along with a few small rng planets for resources. They don't even need to be full planets, no amount of openness is impressive if it's all empty and boring. I can think of multiple ways they could have gone about this, but this wasn't it.
As a software developer I am absolutely horrified about the way you explained the way floating points work.
I was about to comment the same :D
Same. He mentioned that gam devs use floats to represent position because they use less data, but do integers actually use more space than floats? I thought it was the other way around
My favorite part was how he described the "accuracy" dropping off in an exponential curve while the hard-edged wall of the far lands stood behind him judgingly.
@@basiicbid8032 They are the same size but floats can represent larger values.
@@akayame39He’s right about the accuracy degrading in an exponential curve, his explanation in general was bad tho
FYI: Star Citizen experienced this same issue early on in the project. They solved it by converting their engine to 64 bit, from 32 bit. That gave them much, much more precison to track objects no matter how far they left to spawn point.
But it did pay off in the end for them. Im guessing due to the freaking Creation engine being just not able to handle that, bethesda wasn't able to bother
I don't know much about game engines but I'm shocked they were using a 32 bit engine. Weren't they using a modified cryengine for star citizen?
I just think back to old school runescape, it's a 32 bit game engine hence why the max stack of coins or anything else is 2.147 billion or whatever the 32 bit integer is. Runescape came out in 2004 but iirc the engine (runescript) was based on actual old school from like 2001.
I'm just shocked anyone would be using a 32 bit engine still, that couldn't have been easy for them to convert star citizens engine to 64 bit.
@@beeman4266 Cryengine, as is MOST engines, is 32 bit.
@@alandab Interesting, that's surprising. I guess I'm thinking about it in operating system terms, we switched over to 64 bit years ago because 32bit was limited to low ram or something right? I figured game engines would be the same, but if they're just modified holdovers from years ago I guess it makes sense.
@@beeman4266 For the vast majority of games, 32 bit is more than enough. But for a "space game" where you need to track objects billions of kilometers away without loading screens, 64-bit is a necessity.
Todd: We made this game for modders
Modders: So you're going to make the game modder friendly? You won't randomly update causing all the mods to break? You're going to make file organization easy to use and listen to our suggestions?
Todd: Nope! It's friendly to modders cause it's empty and boring!
He literally thinks that cause it’s empty that people will just fill it with stuff. Like an artist with an empty canvas. Hey Todd, artists need tools and something to go off. Not a literal complete blank canvas
Cook
@@kremesauce I feel sorry for the modding community because they are literally just doing bugthesda's work but for free.
Bethesda updates skyrim to break all the mods so only option is their paid mods, its one of their business strats, why are you even surprised 😂
@Kremesauce. Bethesda has a bad history with canvas. Nobody wants to paint on plastic foil.
Honestly, this only made me feel worse about Elder Scrolls 6. They really need to reevaluate how they make their rpgs. So many companies have improved what an open world rpg is and Bethesda just doesn't want to innovate themselves.
Todd doesn't care anymore
Gonna come out in 2028 like 10 years outdated 😂
As long as they won‘t change the engine and most of the leading staff incl. Emil Pagliarulo and Todd (I don‘t mean naming it creation engine 3, that doesn‘t count 😉), there is no hope and I pray, also no hype, again.
Yea expect Elder Scrolls VI to have same severely outdated engine as last 5 or so Bethesda games with same quest design and everything. They will have to rely on modders again to keep their game relevant. Honestly this company baffles me. I'm just glad that Starfield got such polarizing reception, it means people are done with their shit.
Hopefully they learn from baldur's gate 3 because it won goty
An old timer once told me "never try to polish a turd"
Cyberpunk2077 has left the chat
StarCitizen had to change from 32bit coordinates in the default CryEngine to 64bit in order to create the huge system of Stanton. Even in Arena Commander you were able to tell when you went to towards the edges of the map. If Todd would have paid attention in 2014 he could have seen this coming.
I also thought about star citizen as I watched this!! This just shows why it's taking them so long to release their game. It's difficult to build entire planets, an entire universe with no loading screens and persistent entities everywhere.
The farlands in minecraft being caused by floating point inaccuracy is actually just a common misconception. The farlands were caused by the failure of the noise generators used for terrain generation beyond those coordinates. While floating point innaccuracy artifacts can be seen in the farlands, the innacuracy does not get so bad as to make the game unplayable until you are much further out than the start of the farlands.
This! I fear general audience are going to be confused about what a float is and the farlands issues after watching this video.
That's still an FP precision issue though, it's just manifesting in a different component of the game. Where FP precision issues manifest is never clear or straightforward since it depends on the specific calculations the game is making. You might be able to represent your position just fine, for example, but your velocity might be unworkably broken if you use something like verlet integration to do physics. It's just another expression of that loss of precision.
Yeah, he talked about it very generally including the islands and stuff, but then he showed the actually glitching later. Very misleading
☝🤓
it is still a flop issue just not the same as has been said. the noise generation is having an overflow error and having to adhock a solution to not die.
In my opinion, the issue is not the ability to travel between tiles. The fast travel between fishbowls could be fine. The problem is there is no content. In skyrim I find it enjoyable to abstain from fast travel because I run across so much quest and story content while exploring. This to me is the core of an exploration game. Give me a reason to want to go off the beaten path.
But that's the problem with Starfield, there is no exploration, you can't discover POI's because they're either on a map, or on your hud already. Imagine if every POI was already on your map or hud in Skyrim as soon as you were 500ft away. You would never need to look for them, because long before you could even SEE them, you'd know they're there.
There is no "off the beaten path" In Starfield, you either go to designated areas the developers have deigned you to be able to go, with content you know is there (RNG events don't count because random encounters is not exploration) or you simply don't, because you literally can't.
And that's something that's potentially solvable with mods and/or major DLC. Making content additions to the procedural generation engine may be something actually feasible with the CK2
@@Crese1947 No, it's not really, for reasons this video goes into. It would require a complete overhaul of how space travel works, if that's even possible given the engine's problems with accuracy, along with all the changes that would have to be done with the current locations to get them to work within the new system.
No, Bethesda isn't going to change the core game from here on, and they've made zero indications they would, because why would they? Despite the criticism the game still sold like hotcakes.
And modders aren't going to be able to fIx it because they'd need access to the source code, something the modding lot will absolutely NOT provide.
@@Razumen
In context, I OBVIOUSLY didn't say that making entire planets tiles connect is feasible, I said injecting new POI's into the pregen system could be possible.
It's one thing to rewrite the entire games fucking code, it's another thing to make additions to an already established base.
Bethesda has a pregen system for each tile that has POI's, it shouldn't take years of work to increase the chances of POI's spawning and adding variety to the pregen system.
Even if modders can't do that for reasons that have nothing to do with float points, they can still make static tiles (Non-pregenned tiles, like the major cities).
It wouldn't be a stretch to say a modder could make a new planet full of custom made tiles. It wouldn't require reqriting the games code and would rely primarily on the creation kit.
Nobody is stepping up to claim making planets with soley custom content is impossible, because planets are just a collection of worldspaces.
Again, modders CAN fix exploration. I don't give a damn whether or not exploring a planet without bounds is possible, just that each tile (Which is said to be the size of the Skyrim map) is hand-tailored by mods, or (if possible) a shit ton of POI's are added to the pregen system.
TL;DR: Modders can absolutely make use of the already existing pregen system by adding more content to it, and failing that they can just make a tile like new atlantis and fill it with content. Reading comprehension is your best friend.
@@Crese1947 Finding randomly placed POIs isn't exploration, it's just chance. Not to mention you don't discover anything in planets anyways, they're on your hud way and map long before you can see them.
And if they can't fix space exploration, which they can't and won't, then they definitely can not fix exploration as a whole.
Starfield could solve this issue of loading the procedurally generated areas with ease. They could simply come up with an excuse, saying that you need to establish a signal to communicate with the ship if it's too far away, and the signal has an X-ray radius. Every time you get far from the ship, you lose communication and get lost. Just include something like this, go to the edge, place a beacon with a cutscene, and they load from behind, nothing too complicated. At least it enhances immersion.
to put it simply for the floating point math issues, floating point numbers (in this case, the IEEE-754 standard) are really good for smaller numbers, but once you start getting to numbers beyond the millions and into the billions range, there accuracy of very small deviations in numbers gets lower and lower. eventually the precision gets too low where the each increment in values is entire integers (i.e. you cant move unless your speed is so high you can move between entire blocks in a single tick, in the case of minecraft)
It is also bad for smaller numbers, it all depends on what precision you need.
@@SioxerNikita while i do agree its not perfect, its good for numbers between 0 and 1
@@whamer100 Depends on what precision you need.
Honestly, I feel that making the game flyable and more open world wouldn't fix anything at all.
The problem isn't how you get to the ground, but the fact that what you are doing on the ground isn't fun, interesting, varied enough or narratively cohesive.
What this game needs is better systems that are worth interacting with, a survival system that requires you to invest in your suite to not die, a system that make your crew important and not suck ass, and content to do with the ship (which is probably better done while in space)
The core loop of "I land on the ground and I do stuff" is broken, not because it's not functional but because the "stuff" is not worth doing most of the time.
A lot of people have said that Bethesda should've scrapped the concept of near unlimited randomly generated planets altogether and had the game focus entirely on one planet with one or at most a handful of different planets with well designed maps. And I agree. The core concept of the game is not something I believe most BGS fans wanted. Bethesda tried to make No Man's Sky for an audience that wanted Skyrim in space and failed in all accounts
@exantiuse497
To be fair, I think randomly generated stuff could have worked if it was done with more...competence.
Like,. the randmly generated stuff is good as background fluff, it just can't be THE content.
Also there should be planets with no genereted human structures, it's so dumb that the whole theme of the game is "to go where nowhere else has ever gone" and on literal any planet there are man-made structures, it completely ruins the vibe.
In fact, there should be missions that ask us to build the goddamn outposts for someone else and then give them control, currently the outpost system barely has a purpose.
Make us feel like the vanguard of humanity.
@@Wind14011 "to go where nowhere else has ever gone" . I feel like they failed on that account when they decided how interplanetary and system travels are done lorewise. If you can instantly jump from one system to the next, then there is no opportunity-cost attached to space-travel. The only opportunity cost might be piracy.
@@delfinenteddyson9865 I think the game needs survival elements to fully drive that home. .
Fuel, life support, food, to make it feel like going somewhere takes effort.
That said, even without those at the very least making sure unexplored planets are actually empty of people should have been step 1 and they didn't even make it there.
@@Wind14011 I agree with you, it's kinda sad the more you think about it
I will forever be grateful to modders for all the great things they did to Skyrim. Thanks to them i still play it and it feels modern and fresh thanks to all the amazing mods they're releasing daily. Love you guys
Who tells him?
Skyrim and Fallout 4.
I loved Skyrim and kept loving it thanks to modders.
I hated Fallout 4, but came to love it thanks to modders and some of my own work.
I hate Starfield and am sad to realize that neither me or other modders can ever make it into the game we want it to be.
It's fucking sad.
Luckily, Starfield being such a letdown is a big reason we've seen some new large innovations in mods for Skyrim and Fallout 4.
I 100% agree! My question is why could I get Skyrim, with mods ( a lot of mods), looking more photorealistic than newer games made a decade later? Then I was running a 980ti and it could do it, moved to a 2080ti and it ran smoother yet barely utilized the card. I am now on a 4090 and max graphics on newer games still look archaic in comparison. You would think choosing "ultra" settings would mean something.
I thank them for their endless love for Morrowind as well. I'm able to play as a Dremora and it's AWESOME.
the elder scrolls series without Modders would have been Long Forgotten.
So for those who want to know more why floats work this way, it basically works like this. The generic float value has 32 bits. The float also dictates where the period is placed (for decimal numbers). Now I can't remember exactly how many values, but for sake of simplicity, if the max was like 15 numbers, that period needs to go somewhere, so u can have 9 followed by 14 numbers, or 9, decimal, 14 numbers. So as the whole digit place gets bigger, the amount of what can be in the decimal place shrinks, resulting in jittering vertices. Now I'm pretty sure it's not 15, but it's for sake of simplicity.
We can however use doubles, which are 64 bit floats, but that's twice the memory usage, and for gpus to use it, you actually have to use 2 32 bit floats and do some math between the two... it's weird...
A solution is to do rebasing, which is to reset the 0, 0, 0 position of the world with your character / chunk. So if you move from point 0, 0, 0 to 100, 100, 100, the game could do a rebase operation and subtract 100 from all xyz's... however this is pretty complicated in an already established engine for inhouse engines, and depending on the amount of objects, it can be expensive on some machines (although not as much as other game systems, still a thing to think about).
Good explanation. For anyone wondering why they get less acccurate but aren't completely random, it's because the value after the decimal is represented by adding 1/2^n on each 1 in the binary, so let's say the floating point number uses up all the numbers it could except 2 before the decimal, then it could only represent 1/2, 1/4, and 1/2+1/4, so basically a max "positional change" of .25 units instead of tenths of thousands of units
For those wishing even more information, the standard describing this numbering system is called IEEE 754
Is Sarahs brown leather jacket in the game a reference to Todd & his famous leathers?
As a long time mod user/novice modder primarily for New Vegas I knew the "1000 planets" and "space exploration" aspect of Starfield was doomed from the start. A brief explanation of how Creation Engine (Gamebryo) games work. You have World Spaces consisting of Cells that lead into other Cells that load in as you move forward. Notably, Skyrim early on had a consistent problem with the speed of a player mounted on a horse being too fast for the game to load the content of cells. At initial release, or heavily modded, you can still experience noticable and frequent game stutter when you leave one Cell and enter a new one and feel the game load the assets and content for said Cell. Starfield does not have vehicles because you would run right into the glitches present with the Horse speed in base release Skyrim. Now, modern gaming hardware can brute force older Bethesda engine based games like New Vegas to have working vehicles, but the reason they function at all is because hardware brute forces the game engine to load cells faster. Starfield, with its modern high poly models and HD textures, all of which are woefully un-optimized for what they are, can't handle the player moving at the speed needed for a functional vehicle.
But lets move to "Interiors". Creation Engine handles Interiors in an extremely antiquated way. As in, everything in an individual interior is entirely loaded into the game via a loading screen. The Creation Engine handles Interior spaces akin to a matryoshka doll. An interior leading to an interior, into another, etc. The Engine is simply outdated when it comes to Data streaming and masking loading screens. Games like Cyberpunk, RDR2, and the now older MGS5 can almost seamlessly transition from exterior game spaces to interior ones. Yes, they all use loading screens, but they mask them as much as possible giving the illusion of seamless movement. But unlike Creation Engine they all handle the retrieval and loading of data and assets in a far superior, modern fashion.
The ridiculous and slightly funny thing is that Starfield can't even handle the player moving at the speed needed to simulate fast walking. On pc the game stutters even on 40 series gpus. That's probably why the walking and running speed is so slow.
Appreciate the break down my guy 👍👍👍
now older MGS5.... I feel my hair going grayer.
@@AoveliusHaha yeah, that statement sounds odd until you realise it's gonna be 9 years old next year. Time flies.
This is exactly why I don’t understand why Bethesda is so stubborn and refuses to update or swap their engine. Their games would be so much better on an engine that’s not outdated asf. The fact these dumbasses keep releasing new games on this antiqued engine is mind baffling
I'm honestly so happy to see the Steam reviews more accurately representing the general public opinion of the game. I think it really needs to sink in for Bethesda that they did NOT release a masterpiece like they said they did.
@infinitysynthesis I really don't think it's Microsoft/Xbox hate. Otherwise there'd be more immediate negative reviews. I highly doubt that Sony fans would buy starfield on steam playing for hours upon hours just to review bomb it and seem legitimate.
@@infinitysynthesis It’s a bad game. Maybe different hardware would have helped some things (loading screens particularly) but no one reasonable would have ended up under the impression it was suddenly a good game.
@@infinitysynthesis The trolls would go away if Bethesda was more earnest about what they promised and what they promise to fix. The game doesn't deserve mostly negative reviews. Neither does it deserve to be completely exempt from criticism.
@@EladeliaIt's not bad but it's not a good game either.
@@infinitysynthesis This is the most random, stupid cope I've seen in a while. Lol.
I know explaining floats was hardly the point there, but still: floats don't "compress" anything. They're simply a way to represent a fractional value as binary data. (In fact they're essentially scientific notation for computers.) They're the default tool for that job, CPUs and especially GPUs are well optimised at dealing with them, they're used for 3D model coordinates, etc etc.
You *can* use more complicated ways to store decimal coordinates, but that's it - using a more complicated tool. Floats aren't "compressed" just because they're smaller than something more complicated.
edit: I guess you can consider them a way to compress big whole numbers, just like scientific notation is a way to write big numbers without having to write all the zeroes. After all you don't need fractions if you just make a meter equal a billion units. But the point is that floats aren't an optimization used by game engines, they're *the* standard tool, reaching much deeper to the very hardware and its drivers and graphics APIs.
Another way to think of floats is like scientific notation. Writing numbers in the hundreds or thousands is not an issue. Once you want to start writing quadrillions, it becomes less convenient; just writing 7.5 * 10^15 is a lot more compact, with the tradeoff being that you can no longer represent values in increments of hundreds anymore. Floats are sort of like this, in that instead of having one value for each number, it can move the decimal point, so to speak (which is where "floating point" comes from.)
The naive solution is to just use larger numbers that take up more data; this might seem like a good choice if your computer has a boatload of memory, but unfortunately you then run into the fact that modern computer processors are 64-bit; once a number has more than 2^64 possible values (i.e. what can be expressed in 64 1's or 0's,) it can no longer process it in one step, which will destroy performance.
The trouble here isn't that computers can't process enough numbers or process them fast enough, because other games have solved this problem. The issue is that certain aspects of the game engine prevent the game from efficiently using what it can already do.
If you're saying "but actually processors have been able to process 128 bit numbers since sandy bridge," yes, I'm aware AVX instructions exist, but these deal with integers rather than floating point numbers, and requiring later revisions will just shut out anyone who doesn't have a certain processor from playing. Not to mention the fact that both the PS5 and XBox series X/S are running on AMD zen 2 (ryzen 3000/4000 architecture,) which does not have AVX-512 anyway.
Modders @ New Vegas “We got this”
Modders @ Skyrim “Prepare to be Amazed”
Modders @ Starfield “Bruuuuhhh…”
Modders @ Fallout 4 "Yeah, we can work with this"
Bart Simpson fight Thomas the Train.
😂😂😂😂
Modders @ Fallout 3 "We can work within reason"
This is the only Bethesda game I have never bought. I was skeptical because I didn’t want a space game (I wanted FO or TES), and I’m glad my instincts were correct. It just looks so bland. Where’s the love Bethesda games always had? It’s just not there. It looks like they just crapped it out as a cash grab for Bill Gates.
It unbelievable how Bethesda didn't think about this problem in advance... Floating point problem was taught at the university (with games mentioned particularly!) when I started learning IT... 16 years ago...
I'm sure they were aware of the limitations but decided to go this route anyway. It could be too expensive to build a new engine that works differently, or perhaps they figured it would take too long and they had deadlines of when they wanted this game to release. There are likely other considerations that they had to take into account.
No it is not expensive. It is a question of take the time and work on it. CIG did it in 2013 with just a couple engineers for Cryengine 3.5. They rebuilt all the code to use 64 bit floating point. That's why Star Citizen has not a single loading screen for anything in the whole game (besides the game launch) and it's map is of 3 billion cubic kilometers.
Everything in SC is seamless. But is not an easy task because once you've got your engine working on 64 bit FP you've got to "translate" that to 32 bit FP coordinates of the graphics card (yes, in 2024 the graphics cards are 32 bit FP).
@@AntonioOjanguren Now they do have them. With introducing new systems we need a way to load them. So, there is wormhole journey to reach a new instance.
Jokes on you, the engine was made 27 years ago, so yeah they didn't really care or have the hardware to care. (Gamebryo, not Creation, since it's just an iteration and not even their own work.)
@@AntonioOjanguren Lmao are you using that as a victory saying it can be done and as a shining example? Last I saw I couldn't walk 10 feet without the game crashing due to persistence.
My brother in gaming...we will indeed be happy running around full planets in year or so....in Star Citizen :)
Wow, Bethesda not only killed any drive or hook to get the player to explore in an organic way, they also destroyed the ability to meaningfully mod the game. What a genius move Bethesda! xD
By no means am I an expert, but I've dabbled in mod creation for Bethesda games and released a few things in the past. Couldn't agree more with the feeling of how pointless it feels with Starfield. The desire to make mods usually started with an idea to improve small things about the game, not fundamentally alter entire pillars of the game from the ground up.
If you're gonna do something that extensive, from where I'm looking at it you might as well just make your own game...
@@natchu96 that's what I said. The amount of shit that Would have to be "fixed" I thought about doing I started to think
"Why am I bothering with this... I should just make my own game"
If it's So broken that modders start to think Going Indie would be time better served well... Let's just say Maybe Starfield would cause a future where BGS style games start popping up in the future
It took me weeks or months just to learn the GECK enough to mash two basement mods for Skyrim together. All they do is edit the same cell and I wanted to use both of them. I managed to pull it off but good god do i have a lot of respect for full-scale modders. Expecting them to fix Starfield for free is absolutely insane
Maybe those things dont need to be altered. Maybe people only think they do.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 I mean, I don't think it's the end of the world as we know it that we're doomed to a life of loading screens and fast travels to move from fishbowl to fishbowl. People just need to reevaluate the priorities and make the fishbowl really cool.
But it's currently not really cool. People are right about that at least.
As a software developer who's dabbled in planet generation in my free time, it cannot be overemphasized how difficult it is to make stuff "big". Virtually all modern engines are designed for flat areas of less than a few kilometers. Past that, everything breaks. Objects will flicker and move around, physics systems stop working, even rendering will have strange effects.
Games have to be built for these considerations from the ground up. Many games have an entire second rendering system on top of the first for far away objects. Open world games will typically move the entire world around you once you've traveled a certain distance. And don't even get me started on what you have to deal with if the direction of "up" changes, if you have spherical worlds like No Man's Sky.
The engine behind star citizen is insane for what it does. It's a shame it's tied to something trying to be an MMO.
@@MontySaurusRex_ not only mmo, if u don't know 😊
@@artemshenev7422 I'll believe in Squadron 42 when I can play it.
@@MontySaurusRex_ fair enough)
I wonder how they did it in No Man's Sky. Remember that when it started, it was pretty much an indie game in terms of development.
I don't understand why this is one of the most requested features. It feels like people want Starfield to be No Mans Sky, when it's clearly not that, not even close. How many people would really want to walk from one side of a planet to the other? To be honest having an infinite space to explore is worthless if there isn't enough interesting stuff to find. Having invisible walls in planets never bothered me because I never ventured that far, I never needed to. Instead I was bothered by every other aspect of the game that was fundamentally flawed.
Making game worlds that are that large is tricky. You'd need to make significant technical decisions with that goal in mind, and probably the creation engine was too expensive to modify to be capable of it
As someone who works on software that has reached its 20th year of development, this hit a lot closer to home than I would've liked. The last year of my life was spent working on a "just do this" change that was time boxed for 2 weeks.
f
Gotta love going into technical debt
Just add multi-tenancy to the db, shouldn't be a problem
@@ThickpropheT😢
‘Float’ is just a data type, which the developers chose (in the past), to store a floating point number. As an analogy, maybe think of it as something like the choice of units on a compass. You could use a compass with 360 degrees or 6400 mils. It’s easier to work in degrees: less space required to write and record, calculations are simpler therefore less expensive in time (and you didn’t need it back then so why pay for the costs). But as distances increase, then the 360 degrees are far less accurate than 6400 mils e.g. if you are trying to a hit a target miles away with artillery your bearing in degree widens over distance to be inaccurate. Changing your entire system e.g. game engine to work with more accurate units or from a new moving point of reference requires a lot of work. So they didn’t.
Lol were you a 13f?
This is correct. Game engines use floats because they are more efficient to compute and store than larger data types like Doubles. Solving the floating-point resolution problem for a space game is not as straightforward as using a larger data type. A larger data type will indeed provide better resolution for greater distances but at the cost of increased computational power and RAM usage. It's not a viable solution for arbitrarily far distances, as you encounter other issues, such as having a moving origin. Luke's suggestion of using another paradigm for the scene's origin point is valid. However, it's not a simple implementation and, for most games, not worth the effort due to the complications it introduces, especially when dealing with a constantly moving origin.
In my space simulator, I currently move all other objects in the scene relative to the ship, ensuring that the origin remains fixed. For modders, I'm not sure about the tools they have access to, but I can imagine that solving this problem effectively might be nearly impossible.
As a side note, shaders, which are used for rendering and other high-speed mathematical operations, often utilize the "half" data type, which is half the size of a float. A half is represented as 16 bits, while a float uses 32 bits, and a double requires 64 bits.
How to handle positions across vast distances is a fundamental problem that all space exploration games need to solve. No Man's Sky, Kerbal Space Program, etc., they all solved this problem (although you can still get funny looking glitches in KSP if you can get the origin very far away). Bethesda used a very novel approach to solve this problem - they just didn't.
I do want to point out that a double would be (approximately) 10 million times more precise than double(8 extra digits). But yes, that's a finite number, and space is fucking massive, so some form of multiple-origin solution would probably be appropriate.
Also, the degrees example doesn't work that great since that's an integer example, not a float example.
@@dojelnotmyrealname4018Pretty sure Bethesda uses 32bit numerics for like every large value
Rotten core? All they HAVE is a core, and no branches or leaves.
I hope modders don't repair the game. Such an expectation is how you end up with games like Starfield.
The moment you said the errors would surface when “straying too far from the ship” my heart sank. I remember the devs of Outer Wilds discussing this issue in some sort of vidoc and how that problem was solved, and I just don’t think Bethesda has showed the desire or capability to make the overhauls required
I don't think Outer Wilds had this problem, but maybe I'm wrong. The gameworld in Outer Wilds really isn't all that big, it's a couple of kilometers wide. Any modern engine can support this no problem, and the game is made in Unity. Actually I just found a video where someone is 37.000km out of the Solar System and the game starts to break. The solar system in Outer Wilds is NOWHERE as wide.
@@FrozenDozer Outer Wilds doesn't have this problem because they made the player character the point of origin at all times (you can trigger floating point errors if you go really, really far out and come back, but that's impossible in normal play). It's discussed in the Noclip documentary.
@@FrozenDozer It did while it was in the development, but it was fixed in the way that was discussed in the video where they made the player the center point while having the solar system move around player when a movement input is made
As an indie game developer I can confirm the relationship between the player, the world, and how the player moves through the world can cause a plethora of unseen and difficult bugs to diagnose, depending on the methods chosen to accomplish these tasks.
@@FrozenDozerI don't think unity have 64bit world coordination system, and 32 bits in most engine allow for maps only 4 Km wide or something like that before the precision starts to bring problems. Outer Wilds and most game circumvent this by making the player be the point of origin and shift the position of the world and not the player through the world. That works but is not simple to implement if the engine is not built to do that. And in a game the size Starfield wants to be it's even harder, because you are dealing with really big numbers. The best solution is to rewrite the coordination system to handle 64bit precision, but that take a long ass time and effort. Just look how long it took CIG to implement this on Cryengine in the past to make solar system maps possible there.
I am genuinely worried for the ES6 after seeing Starfield.
Well as long as ES6 is just one map it should be fine for the most part what Starfield is it's a Bethesda game through & through it's just missing the one part that made there game's great and made us forgive & forget all the mediocre stuff they've always been doing.
I've lost all interest. I would only regain interest until after it comes out and I hear good reviews from youtubers I trust (like Luke).
@@Jeff1tgdsghdehhsfI’ve lost all hope in any version of the creation engine. It’s been a fossil for a while now and they refuse to retire it. It’s clearly limiting them and it pretty much safe to say it’s gonna limit ES6. In a perfect world MS would step in and force them to stop using it. It’s now a crutch for them tho
I have no hopes for ES6 at this point. Unless a miracle happens it will be the same old same old and i do not believe in miracles.
Bro the writing has been on the wall since at least Skyrim.
Maybe if you had a crew on the ship the ship could stay loaded by moving right outside your loading radius. The in universe explanation for this would be that your crew followed you and didnt want you too far from the ship. I'm not sure if the game can handle the ship moving while you're on planets surfaces (ive never played the game.) but if it could, you could just have it follow you.
At the start of the game in the first city I didn't get in the train, I jumped off the edge and explored. It became very clear very quickly that this was a hand holding type of game. It took me a while to get to the next POI and it was pretty average, but the kicker was that this POI was actually just another location for the main quest, it wasn't even a extra piece of area.
They advertised the ocean, but they didnt say that it came in a bunch of fish tanks. And those fish tanks are in a warehouse where you're supposed to go in and out while they change the 4 little decorations in every tank. There's like five fish, and one of them is clearly on death's door.
That would actually be a fire concept for a dystopian story
I'm a mod author. I made Nevamirr-the-Rogue for Skyrim. Even making followers is extremely difficult. I ran into issues with Creation Kit then, especially when it came to trying to set the presets to match the faces so they don't have a mixmatched head. Just imagine trying to completely overhaul the entire game of a completely outdated system. That's just madness my dude.
Damn, so you even went through Navmesh hell, respect.
lmao what a joke
I recently had someone make the argument that it's Bethesda's design principles more than an engine limitation that made Starfield such a chore, without realizing at all the the design choices Bethesda made were in direct correlation with the limitations of the engine. They built it this way because it was the best way they found to make it actually work. This engine needs to get retired.
@@Gakusangi In a lot of cases, a lot of design decisions are locked in by funding and and time that the corporate leadership will bestow on the devs.
There's no way that Todd is willing to sink huge time, energy, and funding for any major upgrade to the engine for the following reasons:
1. Todd has to dish out some fast and quick for $$ and to please the investors.
2. People buy Bethesda games like hot cakes, at least historically, despite all the flaws and horrible game breaking bugs. Some news outlets report that Starfield recorded 12 million players. So even with historical failures like FO76, people still buy their games no matter what.
3. There are community of Bethesda slaves called modders that do fixing and adding content for Bethesda. Not throwing any shade at the modders but this is probably how Bethesda views them given how they treat them.
So with these circumstances, there's just no reason to justify any major upgrade to the system from Todd's perspective.
Making a follower is very easy in CK... Just saying
On one hand, it´s totally honorable for modders to try to fix that game. On the other hand do I think Bethesda doesn´t really deserve to have their mess fixed by fans for free. That´s really not how it´s supposed to be. We are talking "AAA", right? It´s a shame!
A floating point number, or float, is a number type in programming thay can hold decimal points. It's given more bytes than an integer (whole number) & it's data in memory is handled diffently at interpret/compile time. A double-float, or double, is just a float with double the bytes compared to a traditional float. The additional memory is used to enhance the accuracy of the number for the different contexts it's employed in.
As far as I understand it, the further you get from the origin point, the bigger a difference a few degrees creates in calculating the player position. The distance between 2 points at a 1 degree angle 1 meter away from 0,0 is a barely noticable 1.7cm gap, but that same 1 degree angle at 100,000m away from the origin creates a 1.7km gap between the two points. A floating point number can mitigate the inaccuracies, but at some point that gap will be impossible to fill in with the limited amount of decimal places a float or double will allow for.
At that point, the distance of the player/object from origin in a spatial context exceeds the game's ability to accurately define the player's position mathematically. That's the point where you get the farlands.
It's actually just basic trigonometry slamming up against the limitations of binary-based computing.
A bunch of people wondered what the first technology mentioned in the StarEngine presentation from a few weeks ago meant: "64bit world coordinate system". This is that. Star Citizen uses a 64bit coordinate system to achieve uniform millimeter precision at solar system scale. That was the first key technology CIG developed, because without it, a seamless world of that scale simply wouldn't be possible, and everything else builds on top.
64 bit Integers within the code, I know what you are saying, that's the problem with Starfield it can't hold more than 4 million ID's currently resulting in crashing. They are aware but don't really care. Reddit has a detailed post, it's known as the ID bug. Goes back since Creation Engine was released all those years ago.
Programmer note: a 64bit integer is not actually any sort of advanced technology, however during the time when the creation engine was first made it essentially predated widespread use of 64 bit systems, running 32 bits instead
And positioning in games is generally achieved not with integers but with floats, due to the ability to move the floating point for more precise positioning (at the cost of potential destabilisation of your world once you go far away from the center if you don't have a way to move said center of your reference)
@@RocketRentonright…it was a big problem with Fallout 3 and 4 so it’s unforgivable that they didn’t address it.
firstly space game has existed for decades, star citizen is not the first game they work on that has an open universe, you do not need 64bit to make a space game. you just have to understand the principle behind the math. and most games they don't develop their own physic engine, the issue is not with the coordinate system, it with the physic engine losing precision due to the number being too big. and how this is resolve is actually very simple. you move the 2 object that is interaction into relative space of each other and calculate in that manner. you can move where the floating point is so you are near 0. and after you are done, just add the number back to it. it really very simple math.
@@lagrangewei wow, so simple, so thats why there a a lot of games like Star Citizen... So simple...
Floats are just a way to store a number in a computer. If you wanted to remember a number like 213.86 in the game, it might be stored as 213.8600000 in the computer. That’s 3 digits left of the decimal point and 7 digits right of the decimal point for a total of 10 digits. The decimal point “floats”. Because you only have 10 slots to play with, as the left half gets bigger, the right half gets smaller. That’s why floats are very precise for small numbers but lose precision as numbers get bigger. So if you store distance as a float, as you move thousands of miles away from the center it becomes harder to track objects using inches.
This should be pinned -- great explanation
It's a good explanation, if a little inaccurate (pun intended).
The only thing I'd add is that floating point mathematics run with the idea of an exponent. That is to say:
12^34
Is the same as
49222352000000000000000000000000000000000000 to 8 s.f.
One is very compact, and the other isn't, but they both say the same thing ultimately in terms of the number (or data) they represent. The issue becomes that as numbers get bigger (or smaller), sacrifices need to be made in how they're represented; they either need to take up more memory, or they need to be less accurate, and make concessions in using estimations, rather than absolutes.
This is (and always has been) an issue in computational mathematics, and handling floating point mathematics is all the a gfx card actually does (for the most part). Thus why you see things quoted in FLOPS on GPU specs - Floating-Point Operations Per Second, and another reason why the more detailed a graphics simulation you're running, the more VRAM (memory) the simulation will require, because you're fighting that mathematical trade-off between memory and computation.
Thanks for commenting this. I heard his explanation of floats and went “what?” That’s not what they are at all. They’re just numbers.
He should consult with a maths person
Thanks for adding this, was just about to write similar. Very frustrated with the explanation of floats as some magical storage concept. I think it's also important to point out (for benefit of other viewers who aren't programmers or have this knowledge) that this is not some 'Bethesda thing'; all software suffers from this limitation, but it is usually encountered in games and simulations that push the boundaries. KSP, for example, is another game that is well known for suffering from this limitation.
I don't see why they don't just use both an int and a float to store position. float is incredibly accurate at smaller scales thanks to how the precision is finer the smaller the 'floating point' is, so use an integer for major world units then just use an unsigned float to show where they are relative to that world unit and the next, then repeat for each axis. I'm not a software engineer, so I have no idea if this would work, but I can only image it being much better for such large scale games.
Off topic,like a lot, but when you talk you really sound a lot like Bob Odenkirk when he's playing Saul Goodman. Now that's definitely a compliment, since it's one of my all-time favourite tv-roles. Makes it neat to listen to your content. Keep up the good work! 😁
Just played Skyrim again and I still find places and side quests I've never seen before. Where in Starfield you walk to somewhere and there will be nothing, in Skyrim there is always something.
I only play 20 hours of starfield and every second of those hours all I was thinking was “damn I need to play Skyrim again” granted I have like 500 mods in my playthroughs it’s still amazing. And plus I think Skyrim looks better,somehow😂
It's a shame then, that Bethesda is now demanding paid mods on Skyrim.
Really? It's the complete opposite for me.
It gets even worse when you realise that each type of POI is copy pasted wholesale so once you know the foe layout and loot locations in one "abandoned mine" it will be the same for each over abandoned mine you encounter even down to the sticky note on the employee fridge warning others not to eat their sandwich again. poor space miners been to 10 "different" mines and all of them have sandwich thieves 😞
@@TheCommissarIsDeadI don't even use mods. Last I played was on Xbox 360, this time is the Special Edition on Steam.
I'm a "retired" modder for both Oblivion and Skyrim (already didn't bother with Fallout) . While I only worked on some textures and did some land manipulation in Skyrim (unique places in Oblivion for those hwo played them and downloaded them) , I had no idea what BSG was doing with Starfield and how far they updated the engine or not, but I guess they didn't. The adjacent cells needed to be generated as a player moves across the world - so it looks like you are moving- while trying to avoid pop-in textures and models as best as possible and it was already messy and Skyrim already pushed the limitations on it. There was a crash problem there too, although it had to do with RAM size and pulling data from the hard drive and storing in the RAM, so it had to be conservative values, trying to find the best balance between detail pop-in vs running out of memory issues.
. While the crash problem in this Starfiled video reveals another issue, that is actually worse than adjacent cell loading problem in Skyrim or Oblivion. It's basically a confirmation I was afraid of, which is the game is preset to only load those few cells around your landing zone and that's it. Trying to visit like N.Atlantis several cells away will not work, because it never gets pre-loaded , only the far-detail model, which isn't much different than the map in Skyrim. In a nutshell, don't expect to fly around the planets in the atmosphere with your spaceship it will probably never happen.
I dont even see this as a problem for the game. if you've played the game, the flying part is the worst aspect. id rather fast travel everywhere.
@@TheBirdboy84 If they can remove all unnecessary loading screens (to enter buildings, to take a lift, to enter spaceship), the game would become significantly more enjoyable. After the tenth loading screen in a few minutes, I start losing concentration in this game, you are losing too much time, breaking immersion in the game. Also they need to improve the fast traveling so it does not happen via a freaking menu when it is a requirement to go places. You should be able to just point your ship to any star and jump to it, not only the current objective. And instead of the starmap (which can stay) provide another alternative holographic map inside the ship. The more you think about it, the more disappointment I feel towards the developers or game design leads.
This adjacent cell problem was always present even on Fallout games, and it gets more evident on Fallout 4, with settlements. If a settlement area is composed with multiple cells, it may fail to take into account objects built on those unloaded cells and it may lead to wrong settlement resources values. And if a settlement has too little of some resource, like food and water, happiness will go down until you lose that settlement.
@@belgiumarthur All of the things you want fixed are fundamental flaws in the engine. It simply can't do those things efficiently. There's a reason every interior in Skyrim has a loading screen, and because Starfield essentially uses the same engine as Skyrim(it's a joke that they called it Creation Engine 2.0), there's no realistic fix. The moment I heard Starfield was going to be on the Creation Engine, I knew there were going to be issues.
The next Elder Scrolls will have less issues, because it will simply be Skyrim 2.0. There will still be constant loading screens into interiors, but it won't have the fundamental flaws of Starfield, because there's less large-scale exploration/travel. However, I believe it will feel extremely outdated after we've seen what Cyberpunk, The Witcher, Baldur's Gate 3, etc. can do with very few, if any loading screens.
@@TheBirdboy84 Your logic is astounding. So because one thing is really bad, it's ok to have another bad aspect to the game because it removes the need to experience the first bad thing. That's pure copium.
The Star Citizen devs (yeah, yeah, whatever) talked quite some time ago about having to convert their game engine from using 32 bit floats to 64 bit floats in order to handle positioning data for an entire solar system in one coherent map, as those maps had to handle multiple players.
13:13 this has been the case with all the elder scrolls games. I'm not complaining, but with the freedom of movement you could get with stats, spells, etc. I remember a lot of times where you could fall right through a floor or other boundary. That half-broken silloutte of the map is very nostalgic for me. Reminds me of Morrowind 😂.
This game is like someone's memory of a game, and that memory is fading
Nah it's not as good as Dark Souls 2
That's it. Bethesda has dementia.
@@GabrielOnuris Todd Howard wants us to all come to Carcosa
TD reference
@@MegaChickenPunch we are all in carcosa with todd howard now
"I’ve never been certain whether the moral of the Icarus story should only be, as is generally accepted, 'Don’t try to fly too high,’ or whether it might also be thought of as ‘Forget the wax and feathers, and do a better job on the wings'."
~Stanley Kubrick
3:00 anticipation and that enjoyment in the future is relative to the enjoyment you're acquiescing from the here and now basically.
Modders of BGS games are so under appreciated in my opinion.
Elite Dangerous did space "loneliness" and exploring empty planets really well because you could fly to them, fly across them, scout, look for signs of activity (crashed ships, alien bases etc).
But i have a feeling the average player would say that was immensely boring.
Starfield does so poorly in this regard because every player knows its all fake - you're never feeling like you're finding stuff, you're having content loaded in for you to enjoy - it's a bizarre system designed by people who've forgotten the very nature of why exploration/immersion made their games successful. They've created almost like a souless AI version of what "open world" means.
We all know all games are fake, but Starfield exposes it and rubs it in players faces lol
They badly need to work on the proc gen variety and improve player connection to the world. Wonder what these "new ways to travel" will be hmmm.
That worked out so well for Elite Dangerous when they expanded their scope and added on foot exploration. That expansion was a tremendous success. Oh wait.....
Why did I read that as Ellen degeneres
Although it's not as popular Empyrion did it pretty well too. The whole "space loneliness" thing isn't really boring when there's a reason for it but starfield doesn't have that reason. Aside from a few perks there's no real reason to explore or go hunting for resources either since you can buy what you need and selling them doesn't give you all that much.
@@Ralathar44Bro going crazy with the damage control for Starfield
@@dancemeanumber6569 What damage control? The game is out and has been out for 3 months. 90% of the playerbase is gone. just like with Elden Ring after 3 months. If there was any damage to be controlled it would have been 2-3 months ago. Starfield is what it is at this point. It's a known value for those that love it, those that don't, and the 90% of people online who didn't even play it, just watched a streamer or youtube video or two, but still participate in discussions about it lol.
Starfield is missing the only good thing about BGS games. A fun to explore open-world with environmental story telling.
yea water wets, we know. who are you telling a common observation to?
Environmental story telling= skeleton's and notes
@@SobeCrunkMonster why are you even replying? Why pick a fight?
@@vayneglory655because the OP is just stating the obvious to farm likes
But it has that. Maybe you didn't explore? Ive found abandoned factories that turned out to be not abandoned. Detailed stories about the aftermath of some moon mining operation finding moon spiders and much much more.
Floating-point values, such as for example '12.023312030412', can be used to represent the position of a player and many other things, as you explained at 13:00. They can store highly accurate information. However, it's important to note something you didn't quite get right: the precision of a float is limited by the maximum value allowed for the architecture, typically 32 or 64 bits. They break because the bigger the value they have to store, the more it has to get rounded up to fit in the memory constraints of the architecture. So, for example, the further you go, something like this would happen: '12.352352342', '160.232523', or '1703.32124', every time there is less and less space to accurately represent the value, graphics use a lot of floating point so thats why textures glich after breaking the limits of 32/64 bits.
to address another misconception, they are not meant as a way to store information more compressed; rather, they are just a way to store really, really, really long numbers when precision is more important than efficiency, for any other kind of numerical storing you can use an "int", that stores really short and simple numbers being more efficient.
I groaned a little at the explanation of "floats"... Here's how I'd try to explain it: "Float" is short for "floating decimal point". (I'm going to call "." a decimal point even though the internal representation is binary, dont @ me). Computers are very good at storing and manipulating whole numbers, but fractions are much more complicated. We're all familiar with fractions that don't work nicely as decimals - 1/3 is 0.3333... and so on forever. Technically an *infinite* number of 3s is required for total accuracy. Our human brains can make the leap from 0.333... to 1/3, but a machine can't, it just has to allocate what memory it can to get as much accuracy it can get. There's a lot more complexity, and I 'm not going to get into the full details of ones-complement vs twos-complement, signed floats vs unsigned, etc., but the upshot is that floats lose accuracy at higher levels of precision, meaning very small fractions cannot be accurately represented within the system. Depending on how you look at it, you get some numbers that cannot be represented at all, or you get collisions where multiple numbers have the *same* floating-point representation; this is where a lot of the "farlands" weirdness in Minecraft comes from.
One of Todd’s favorite mods for Skyrim is SkyUI. It’s a shame he didn’t learn anything from it.
Technical Explanation of the Minecraft phenomena:
Computers work with bits.
1 bit = maximum 2 values. 0 or 1.
1 byte is 8 bits = maximum 255 values or a range from -128 to +127
1 integer (a whole number) is 4 bytes = (unsigned) 0 to 4,294,967,295 or (signed) -2,147,483,648 to 2,147,483,647
1 float (a floating point number) is 4 bytes = 3.4E +/- 38 (7 digits)
1 double (double size floating point number) is 8 bytes = 1.7E +/- 308 (15 digits)
Exceeding this range makes it loop around so a (signed) byte of value 127 + 1 = -128, so you get weird results or sometimes crashes as the program gets unexpected results.
The reason of the "far lands" in Minecraft is due to the procedural calculations the game makes to generate the terrain based on the player's location. It's all based on Perlin Noise (pseudo random algorithm). Due to the large input into the algorithm based on the player's location, you get crazy outputs because of rounding errors and overflowing the range of the data types.
I’m confused. He went into great detail explaining why traveling around a planet in your ship doesn’t work and then just threw his hands up and claimed nothing else works. What does custom planets have to do with the floating point errors?
its a negativity train
Your gaming/Streaming room looks awesome and makes me happy..
This game was so weird for me. I played it with Game Pass, so it wasn't even that I had a lot of expectations. I almost bounced off it at the start a number of times. But then I decided to just mainline the story and the game actually started pulling me back in again. I played a bit more thinking, "Okay, this might be really interesting if..." and almost before I could finish that thought, metaphorically, the game was over. "Oh..." It was a very strange experience overall.
I don’t think you know what metaphorically means
In my opinion the main story in quest are some of the worst parts of this game because they are so mind-numbingly stupid
@@mattmmilli8287 I'm thinking the same thing
Perchance.
You bring up a good point about Starfield. Not enough crushing turts.
I've heard lots of people saying "it's not the engine, it's not the engine!", but yeah... while this game has no shortage of shortcomings that have nothing to do with the engine, it turns out that it really is the case that the engine just doesn't support the type of game they said they were making, and there's nothing anyone can do to fix it. Bethesda just made a space exploration game where you simply can't explore space.
Bethesda is terrible and I wish people would never buy another product of theirs.
Who says it's not the engine? That's all I see, ignorant people blaming "the engine", it's too old, to buggy etc. When it all comes down to BGS engine programmers and the management that has a "good enough" mantra when it comes to their engine.
Right. It's not the engine, actually. It's the game design. The game they designed is incompatible with their engine.
It's definitely the fucking engine. They built Morrowind on it. It's now over 20 years old, and it was an old and dated engine when Skyrim released. That was 12 years ago.
In the year 2023 when other game devs are showing off SSD loading times and near instantaneous fast-travel across seamless and vast open worlds, it's a fucking embarrassment that Bethesda's flagship product after the Microsoft buy-out still relies on loading screen after loading screen as each little "cell" environment loads.
And you can damn well guarantee that TESVI and Fallout 5 will be built on it too.
@@ericcarterofthehillpeople I suppose it depends on which way you look at it: if you think you should make the game that your tools allow you to, then it's a game design problem. If you believe that you should make the tools for the game that you're envisioning, then it's an engine problem. And if you have no vision for the game and just want to put some tape and bubble gum on your old tools so you can kick out something just good enough, then you have a Bethesda problem.
The floating point error was always an issue with the Gamebryo engine yet even after Bethesda "updated" the engine to be a 64bit.exe they didn't bother to apply any updates that basically every other open world space game like NMS and Space Engineers have done with the smallest fraction of the time/budget/people.
What's crazy is, this issue got fixed in FNV running on fucking Gamebryo like 2 weeks ago.
The way it works is, if you imagine with integers, the map would be like an Excel spreadsheet. each 1x1m square could be a point in the spreadsheet eg: A1. To expand the map you need a massively growing spreadsheet.
With floats around a centre point it would work like a clock face. Imagine instead of a spreadsheet, you just say, this point is at position 12, 100m away. That works pretty well. However, the further you get from the centre, the distance between 11 and 12 on the clock face grows exponentially. Until you get to a point when the float (which is a type of number) that defines the angle you're pointed, needs to be so accurate that it cannot be saved in memory as one number
The main problem I have with Starfield is the procedural generation. You can "land" on different parts of the same planet, only to see the exact same cave or structure 8 times in one playthrough. With No Man's Sky, every single procedurally generated thing you see is unique and different from each other. The fact Starfield is split up into little sections because of the game engine just screams that Bethesda needs a new (or at least better) game engine.
No Man's Sky still has the same structures problem especially with the man-made ones. Pretty sure there's only two station layouts (regular and outlaw) and there's one of them in every star system acting as the local hub.
"every single procedurally generated thing you see is unique and different from each other. "
bruh i saw the exact same things all the time, more so than starfields, idk what you're talking about, tbh despite all of starfield's issues i still enjoy it more than NMS, honestly starfield is a more fun NMS to me, anyone can disagree with me on that. but atleast starfield has some gameplay.
😂😂😂 Uh, whuuuut?
Eh. No Mans Sky has the same issue.
However the amount of freedom in No Mans Sky kind of gives it a better vibe to me. And while it's all procedural I do think No Mans Sky is a better looking and funner game to "explore" even if there's nothing actually there.
It just has a different vibe that I like more when it comes to traveling across a procedural world. Hard to nail down specifics though.
They don't necessarily need to drop their engine but it's clear they haven't reworked the engine enough to support the gameplay experience players want. Starfield is a space game dropped on top of fall out 4. They'd need a big rework to make starfield be like no man's sky. It would be a huge effort and they haven't done it and it would be basically making a new games worth of effort for modders. I don't think it's possible.
Did you know that in order to make a certain mod work in Skyrim I had to manually delete a jail cell in Riften? There was no connection between the two, but that's what fixed its issue. These games are utter dogshit even at a foundational level.
Dude dont even get me started 400+ mods fallout 4 never had much problems with crashes.
a month ago during a new game i met "this" problem where every time i used looksmenu the game would crash right after i exited it.
I could not figure out what was the problem i was devastated and after some digging i found an old steam forum where a guy had similar problems and idk how he figured it out but it was becasue he had grenedes equiped.
I tried it and it worked did not have a crash since using looks menu just fine again.
And im still asking one how the fuck does looksmenu and equiped grenades interact to this extent. And two HOW THE FUCK HE FIGURED IT OUT?XD
@@merok4291oh my God lmao
@@merok4291 He disabled mods till the game worked, re-enabled till it failed, disabled the last one. Once he narrowed that down, disabled all mods other than the problem and try it. If it works, it's that mod + something else. If it doesn't work it's that mod. Then it's a matter of diving down to, is it something equipped, is it a certain location, is it an item so on so forth.
It's fucking time consuming, but it's a very thorough way of figuring out the issue
don't we all start modding skyrim by cleaning the DLC files, because beth never fixed their dirty edits? You don't have to reach, it's a miracle what skyrim has become, but starfield lacks the foundation.
Makes for some fun stories though, that's hilarious
Map origin point works well for smaller open worlds. But if you want to do something bigger like Star Citizen or NMS. This engine is very outdated.
Go play Spacebourne 2. Made by primarily by one guy and a handful of volunteers. You can do everything from eject your ship in space and fly around to plan out a all out war against a space station. It's indie so it may not have the production values of Starfield but definitely makes up for it in game play variety.
I've played a lot of "Empyrion: Galactic Survival", which lets you fly between stars and planets and land anywhere on a planet. The planet maps seem to be coded as rectangular, so that crossing a pole warps you to another point, and each has a longitudinal strip labeled "No Build Zone". Despite these slight limits the game lets you explore a big open area with procedural generation. And this was working years ago!
Empyrion was/is great. Starfield is weak on survival/crafting but it delivers on what Empyrion and most indie space games are missing most, which are questlines, NPCs, factions.
Yeah a played it to
Not to mention that you could build your own vehicles with far more depth and customization from single blocks like Minecraft and not with prebuild modules
Ah and there was terraforming and base construction too
All of that way more interesting engaging and funny than starfield
And as you mentioned
You could explore the entire planet (you were not in a fishbowl)
You literally travelled across planets starting from planet a taking off and arriving in another star sistem planet b landing in a different location
Yeah it was a little bit overwhelming
Especially building from zero
But they also had a fantastic blueprint sistem and with steam workshop you could find nearly everything you needed and the. You could later modify it at will
A masterpiece way underrated my the general public
Hell, even minecraft mods were able to do it back in 2013.
Huh, i wonder what kinda system No Man's Sky uses, then?
I love Empyrion!
That's Todd's entire business model going up in flames right there.
If they don't hit the targets by 2027 for Game Pass as revealed in the FTC case for ABK deal, Xbox are pulling the plug on the whole project and all these companies will be left in limbo a bit like Bungie is now with Sony.
They did it to Nokia and will do it again, they have enough money to take the hit as they make most of their money in Cloud computing and hit 1 trillion in value previously so 50 billion on ABK is nothing, they will simply write it all off as well as BGS.
That's why they are going 3rd party and most of their own IP's are done for now e.g Halo and most games are Game Pass quality at best nowadays, paying the money they want for a half baked product to be patched later which has been the theme now since around 2008 is getting to become almost laughable and people are now voting with their wallets, F2P is also the other side of the coin with live service.
Retro is thriving, modern gaming is dying, it's on it's knees now and will only get worse if they don't turn the corner soon, and I see more scams like the recent The Day Before becoming more often.
I actually see some kind of crash like we had in 1983 possibly in 2024, more layoffs and consolidation is already on the cards.
They're doing just fine without mods haha
@@CrazedDanMan yeah I'm sure they are, with the "mostly negative" review score on Steam
They already made the cash so review.dont matter
@@RicoOCHO85 did they though
the analogy of floats using less data than integers is completely wrong. Integers represent the mathematical set of "integer" numbers (...-1, 0, 1, ...) hence the name integer... while floats represent the mathematical set of "real" numbers ( 0.1, 0.11, 0.111, ...) but using floating point arithmetic (a specific method of representing real numbers on a computer, i.e. there are other methods but modern computer mostly use floating point arithmetic) hence the name float. They can both take the same data/memory space, e.g. 32 bit, they just represent different things. The problem however with representing real numbers in a computer, with limited memory space, is what causes the loss of precision when doing calculations for very large numbers. I.e., you cant correctly represent all possible real numbers on a computer unless you would have access to unlimited memory.
"Working on city maps" is WILD for a 70 dollar RPG in 2023. What on earth were they doing for 8 years?
The thing about the floating point issue is that this problem has been solved, not even recently, and not just by one game studio. Mojang solved it in Minecraft like a decade ago, No Man's Sky had it solved on release back in 2016. Im pretty sure Elite Dangerous has solved the problem, and these are just the examples that come to mind.
I get that fixing this issue in the Creation Engine would be a challenge, but with 8 years and $200 million invested and with this being touted as Todd's "magnum opus" this is the kind of issue you solve before release.
There is a basic fix for it. Its Origin shifting, or a floating origin. Essentially when you go a certain distance you just move the whole world so that your camera or character is in position 0,0,0. Unreal natively supports this, and unity isnt that hard to setup a basic version of it.
but then you'd have to altar all the systems around it to accommodate the new change. Not impossible but I have a feeling they're unwilling to do that, either laziness or some other reason@@Luckyleol
@@Luckyleol The Futurama fix.
It's worse. Bethesda basically cannot develop their engine any more. They can add a few bits here and there, but they cannot rewrite, or even update systems, because they have no knowledge or even documentation on how these systems work. Even their employees are working from modding tutorials.
It's not that they don't want to fix their engine. They *_can't._* Features, like race and body size are baked into their engine, and can't really be replaced, like with Unreal or Unity. It's an engine so specialized, that it can *_only_* create these kinds of RPS. Rewriting these baked in systems would be much harder then just switching to Unreal Engine, and they are not willing to do even that.
@@EvanOfTheDarkness I said on a different video that I’m convinced the current engineers have no idea how certain parts of the engine work since they were written years ago by different people with probably few docs. Makes the most sense honestly
To me, Starfield is like a big fancy mall that they opened before any stores moved in. Or a theme park that opened before any of the rides were ready. The bones are there, but there isn't any soul.
The mall isn't even finished, it's built using outdated techniques and materials, and they're not even welcoming anyone because there are no mod tools released
It's more like if they repurposed a neighborhood into a mall by adding store signs on the front of every house. Ignore the fact that the Old Navy dressing room is actually just a closet in someone's bedroom.
@@mohitonon-alco4287Like... a mall. Something from decades ago that ppl dont really use anymore.
As explained in this video, it's actually much worse than that, because it's the bones that are rotten. Starfield is a mall with a fractured foundation, on which nothing of value can be built.
I'd argue that the bones are bad as well, like it's made to look good but sucks to walk through and explore
As always, much respect and thanks to the amazing video game modders of our internet, enriching my gaming experiences for the love of it! This was something I read in a review article just before Starfield came out, apologies I can't recall the name of it but I clearly remember it. During the development of Starfield the director had a notion that was shared among the development team, it was their main interest is to create Starfield as a sandbox or foundation that could be easily modded in the future, thus the lack of in-depth design or detail of anything. "If their hard work was enviably going to get replaced by something better by some unknowably talented person, why go the extra mile?" That line always stuck in my head whenever StarField is brought up. Todd and Bethesda wanted to create a game people could come back to decades later and have a new experiences with whatever mods modders came up with. I don't know how to say this in any other way for lack of better words, especially when it comes to a videogame that had big effort by many put into it I don't like to insult, but StarField was frankly lacking.
Am I wrong or didn't Todd talk about Starfield becoming a "paradise for modders"?
I've been playing Fallout 4 (with Sim Settlements 2) again for a few days now. THIS is a modder's paradise! It's so great what they've done with this game. I had high hopes for the modding scene for Starfield and I'm disappointed that it doesn't work at all. A big thank you to the modding scene, which makes many games so much better. Fallout, Skyrim, Cyberpunk and many, many others. And when these modders say "it doesn't work", then it really doesn't work. I trust modders more than game studios.
But well, Todd, the used car salesman...
Btw, I also noticed that comments from the companions, for example in combat, were copied 1:1 from Fallout. And I repeat myself: Starfield is a patchwork of other games. There's nothing new there. It may sound harsh, but I'd rather play a Fallout game for the 10th time than Starfield for the second time.
I've been playing BGS games for 15 years and was so excited for Starfield. Almost 4 months after it released and I literally forgot it existed. Before it came out, I was wanting to start a YT channel of my own and create guide-type videos for finding cool pieces of armor or weapons scattered around the map or interesting questlines etc.. Kind of live my dream of when I was 11 watching Skyrim videos from ESO. Just videos for fun. If you couldn't already tell, this type of content isn't really viable for Starfield due to what the game is, and this in itself is my biggest letdown with the game. Where's the exploration? Finding the gear? I just reloaded a save a couple of times and rolled a good piece of armor... I use the menu to travel to a system then I use the menu again to land on a planet all so I can run in a straight like for 1,000 meters and discover... nothing. A literal hole in the ground I can scan. I had only played the game for a few hours when I started to notice the patterns for the randomly generated settlements (or whatever they are). Copy pasted "dungeons." What's the lore there? Spacers raiding an abandoned outpost again? Cool... I guess. I just can't believe what happened here it's honestly heartbreaking to play this game.
4 months after it came out you forgot about it.... So.... literally right now?
So glad I playe Ac6 then this disaster lol
I've been playing BGS games for 15 years and that's why I knew to stay away from Starfield. You could jump or fly across the entire Morrowind map - sure it would pause for loading, but it worked back then. ES6 might just be a series of loading screens the way things are going.
ngl the amount of people that were even excited for this game is depressing. People really thought it wasn't going to be total smoke and mirror bullshit? I have to admit, it was literally worse than I thought it was gonna be.
I expected Fallout 4 perks but more fleshed out, but they were watered down. And the craziest thing, sometimes perks just flat out didn't work after unlocking them.
That sound you're hearing is me, crying over the constellation edition I preordered to try and re-sell on Ebay, and the Constellation jacket that Bethesda Merch put out (and is apparently going to be delivered tomorrow.)
/facepalm
@@zombiesquirel
Developing an ENTIRE GAME where the technology to make it function is not even there is crazy!! thanks for the good journalism luke. youre the best!!
Uh. It does. No man's sky. Or, for a bit more junkier but still seamless world - elite dangerous.
He was referring to it not being "there" in Bethesda's Creation Engine@@PicturesqueGames
not surprised at all, they have been trying to make everything with the same engine since 97, creation engine is just gamebryo with some patchwork to make it work on modern machines. the fact that CE2 don't even have a way to mitigate Floating-point errors just proves that.
This is what happens when you "overhaul" an engine from the 2010's, the Creation Engine just wasn't made to have all the tools available for what gamers want now, or what Todd Howard will promise us. There are other engines that would have been better game for the scope Starfield was intended to have, but no, Bethesda has to use their in-house software.
@@PicturesqueGames Comparing these to Starfield is ridiculous.
When the Joker says it isnt funny,
the Germans dont have a word for it,
Modders say it cant be fixed,
then you should realise how fucked up things are.
Origin rebasing has been a standard feature in most engines for at least 15 years precisely because the sizes of worlds became too large to manage with even double precision floats. There's no excuse other than Bethesda's mismanagement and complacency for Starfield's engine not having it.
Meanwhile, KSP managed to solve the floating point problem more than 10 years ago, with almost no problem and with only a very limited dev team... That says a lot about the dev team of Starrim/Skyfield.
Actually if you use some mods the floating point error can sometimes surface when calculating orbits after the warp (basically your orbit changes slightly when you warp out). Had this problem and solved it by upgrading the game version
Actually if you use some mods the floating point error can sometimes surface when calculating orbits after the warp (basically your orbit changes slightly when you warp out). Had this problem and solved it by upgrading the game version
@karlwithak. Ksp is on steam dude the hell is your point? Steam also has extremely handy community mods tool and this handy little option called return the product if you don't like it
@karlwithak.wtf are you talking about lmao
@karlwithak. Have you not heard of "Early Access?" "Hades" is a perfect example of how wrong you are. And sight unseen??? STEAM has a whole review section to stop just that...
To perhaps give a better understanding of the "floating point" errors - floating point number is a term in computer science for numbers with decimal places. But they are always limited to a certain number of digits in total. For the sake of argument, let's say that limit is 5 digits (in reality it's more). So you could have a number like 1.0000. So as long as you're in the low numbers, you have plenty of digits left for the decimal places, therefore more precision. However, as you move out miles away from the (0, 0, 0) XYZ coordinates on the map, you eventually reach numbers such as 1000.0. So in this case we only have the one decimal place left since the number still has to abide by the 5 digit limit, and one decimal place doesn't leave a lot of room for precision, which is why you get weird artifacts.
The "Floating Origin" solution is basically shifting the (0, 0, 0) coordinates to always follow the player and basically keeping you as the center of the world at all times. It's almost like instead of the player moving around the world, you're moving the world around the player. The player becomes a fixed point in a sense.
20:58 missed the opportunity to say "It just doesn't work!"