I find amazing how BOTH of them start talking about how the other should give them territory, instead of trying to help us kill the dragons. Both lsay they love Skyrim, and yet don't try to kill the real menace.
Plus Riften is so much worse off under Imperial control, I mean Maven Black-Briar has total control over everything as opposed to just 89% control over everything, the Talos shrine was smashed and graves were desecrated, there's still a rampant crime problem, I mean Riften was one of the few Stormcloak holds that was actually doing well for itself beforehand, probably the least racist one too. The empire managed it terribly As for Markarth, they're screwed either way, Forsworn and Silver-Bloods make it such a shite place to live, the empire couldn't deal with it and I doubt the Stormcloaks could either, especially if they have to march reinforcements all the way to the west of Skyrim from Windhelm.
@@gabrieldossantos6347 Yeah in all seriousness she is one of two Skyrim characters that I actually hate and not even in an ironic/funny manner like people love to hate Nazeem. She’s so realistically horrible in how she sits at the center of a web of corruption and what sealed the deal for me was that quest involving her son.
Nah, ulfric loves power, himself, & hearing himself talk. Pay careful attention to the specifics of what he says, & how he says it. If he truly loved Skyrim he'd work with the empire instead of wasting their time fighting each other in a petty power struggle that the Thalmor are using to weaken Imperial & Nordic influence over Skyrim as a whole. If he really cared he wouldn't have been so vicious towards Elisif whose husband he killed. He wouldn't be killing its people for simply refusing to side with him instead of the empire. He wouldn't have forced the Dark Elves to live in the slums, or banned the Argonians from the inner city. He wanted power, & saw the Talos ban as his key to take it.
@@LordVader1094 As if that weren't enough all the content cut but-not-completely...the province is dotted with "traces of" missions, characters, locations, dialogue options/lines..
I did the Imperial side of this in my current playthrough. I made Elenwen leave to keep Ulfric happy (like Tulius ain't gonna give her a full report anyways...) I even said this is so Ulfric has to bend to us later. Naturally, Ulfric demanded Markarth and the Reach which there is NO way around. I played it down to placate Ulfric, and got Tulius the Pale instead of the Rift. I did this knowing that Tulius would demand Winterhold next, to which I agreed to. Then, Tulius demanded compensation for the Karthwasten Massacre, to which I also agree to. So the terms were: Ulfric gets: >Markarth and the Reach (which I had no input on) >Elenwen left (kinda pointless if you think logic/lore wise) The Imperials got: >Dawnstar and The Pale >Winterhold >Money for Karthwasten Reminder that means Tulius got TWO holds, even if they're smaller, controls almost the entire northern seaboard, and are right at Windhelm's doorstep. And he was moaning and whining how I betrayed the empire and that the silver from Markarth was such a loss (he's getting gold for Karthwasten), like..... Bruh. We totally got the better deal, chill. What's even more insulting is on the technical level this arrangement is considered "balanced" point wise, favoring neither side on a behind the scenes point system.
Yeah this whole negotiation thing can be really stupid. I remember the first I did it. I told tullius he should ask for riften. But ulfric ended up refusing the deal and tullius called me a traitor. Then I tried it again but told him to ask for Dawnstar instead and this time it ended with ulfric handing over riften. Nice logic Bethesda
I disagree about your take on Markarth. It’s not about the Imperials having access to silver, it’s about having access to the profits that the silver mines potentially make. In business terms, the empire would get a better cash flow from the mines by having a passive income from the tax’s rather than compensation for the attack. Assuming this war lore wise was long, having enough money to pay not just the soldiers but rations and equipment would be very handy to use.
I got the "imperial ening" and reloaded because I wanted to be neutral...apparently the "neutral ending" makes everyone happy with the results BUT you'll be treated as an enemy by imperials at imperial camps while stormcloack soldiers are 100% chill..Not even Cipius is friendly so my quests are screwed. It doesn't make sense
@@ThrillaWhale dont mind That Guy comment friend. imperials like to sleep hugging their beloved thalmor dossier that was written by the their overlords. Talos guard you
Regardless whether you side with the Stormcloaks or the Empire, Maven becomes the Queen-Bitch of Riften. That's the part of the game I cannot stomach, especially since it wasn't Leila Law-Givers fault Riften was rife with corruption, it was her elf steward working in conjunction with Maven.
Ulfric is such a poetic and interesting character and his voice actor is great. Tullius has my respect as well, but not on the level as Ulfric. None of the characters are 1 dimensional.
Never knew Vignar could attend the truce negotiation. I though once the stormcloaks got Whiterun, Vignar would just let you trap the dragon in Dragonsreach
I think he is feeling confident as he won Whiterun Hold, The Reach, and Falkreath, lore-wise. Many players reached Season Unending in neutral or before taking second hold for their chosen Civil War faction. Edit1: Meta-wise - It is because 1) the player didn't comply with Ulfric's demand to kick out Elenwen, Thalmor Ambassador and it gives a "favor point" to Imperial, also making Stormcloaks look more patient lore-wise; 2) General Tullius state his demand first, even when Stormcloaks had won over Whiterun Hold, Falkreath Hold, and The Reach, basically Empire lost thrice and only holding Hjalmarch and Haafingar by that point; 3) The side "favored" by Dragonborn standing-up-and-backing-down, this time Stormcloaks; 4) No compensation for massacre in DB-favored side's area.
I recently discovered that Laila Law-Giver and her steward Anuriel will go to the Palace of the Kings if you decide to give Riften to the Legion. Usually when a Jarl gets replaced they go to the Blue Palace in Solitude.
3:42 Galmar: You slaughtered them - the women, the children! You butchers! Be honest, Galmar’s passion is the only reason people join the Stormcloak rebellion.
@@jaredgable390 He's a nativist, actually. Big difference. And it's because he's putting his people first. He's not perfect by any stretch, don't get me wrong. But he wants to use Skyrim's recources to help Skyrim first. As it should be. He also wants his people to be able to live their lives their way. Not the way the Empire tells them. Which is a foreign agent.
these terms were not even remotely fair lmao. Morthal is a shitty swamp town and Riften is a great and wealthy city, albeit one rife with corruption. and when the Stormcloaks asked for reparations due to a war crime in their territory, the Dragonborn was like "uhhh maybe it happened, maybe it did not???" this is how it should have went down : Empire gets compensation for Karthwasten massacre Stormcloaks get compensation for the butchery at Anga's Mill Empire gets Dawnstar, a shitty port settlement Stormcloaks get Morthal, a shitty swamp settlement in both cases, shitty Jarls are replaced by more competent alternatives, both sides are compensated for the inexcusable crimes of the other side, and both receive settlements of equal value.
@@saekisadako2118 why not? She doesn't get many lines in-game and we don't get a real feel for her leadership style, HOWEVER, Sorli is slept on. She is the ONLY jarl on any side of the Civil War who has an Argonian on her court, making her one of the more accepting jarls in game.
A 2-way compensation makes zero sense. That's just circular money flow. The Dragonborn was right to not let that fly. You demand reparations AFTER a war is won, not when you're just going for a temporary armistice. Dawnstar is an important stopping point between Solitude and the rest of Tamriel, not to mention the only port that feeds directly from the Sea of Ghosts. Riften hasn't been a rich city since the 3rd Era, corrupt politicians and money-hungry idiots drained the city's coffers, which is why its in the state it's in. Riften ALSO has no direct land route to any Imperial territory. True, Morrowind to the south-east is technically still imperial, it is functionally independent, meaning resupply of troops stationed there cannot be guaranteed. It's basically encircled and gives the Empire no benefit whatsoever. Morthal is an important strategic location, as it sits right near the only road in and out of Haafingar. Financially and culturally it is insignificant yes, but in terms of fighting a war, taking Morthal without violence is like the Legion putting a dagger to their own neck.
The very very first time I did season unending, I had a real on the spot moment, when the grey beard spoke to me to get my answer / responses , and then everyone's eyes were on me I was like " gulp" what do I do or sposed to say, I had to wiki the quest, as I didn't want it going the wrong way ...
@@KaimArgonarEyyyy Well it was the first time, I'd even done this quest to this stage and was try to keep thing even on either side, because I did not favor either one at the time
Ah yes, the true reason everyone eventually picks a side in the skyrim civil war: to avoid the pointlessly stretched out truce meeting where you don't know what's going on.
Really? I didn't pick a side and finished it with three dialogue options. 1. Kick Elenwen 2. Swap Markarth and Riften 3. Stormcloaks compensate for Karthwasten Nothing confusing about it at all
@@oivanurminen8946 in a nutshell if you want to avoid the truce you pick a side. But other then that's the neutral pick out of the point system if you didnt pick a side. If you join either imperials, or stormcloak in the middle of the cival war. Then points system comes in to play. Giving on more ground or taking it. But imo the neutral is the better pick then wasteing time to see who gets who.
It’s disappointing that they chose to make a stupid territory dispute rather than have both sides agree to simply stop fighting for the time being. Hell, there should have been an option to point that out.
Look I joined the Imperials. But Elisif needs to calm the fuck down. Torygg didn't even care about being murdered. He only felt bad that he left his wife in despair. But that's no reason for Elisif to be triggered all the fucking time.
@EnderwaveYT Yea, not at all anything messed up about sitting across from her husband's murderer as he sits there intentionally mocking her, & her late husband. Totally unreasonable of her to get mad over that. That's sarcasm btw. I'd be wantin to ring ulfric's neck with my bare hands were I in her place. I'd shout him through the wall, & end the matter right there. I really hope that's a joke cause otherwise that comment would make you a sociopath if you seriously don't see anything to be "triggered" about.
@@rmzCrush hehehehe she isn't...Suppose we escape from helgen with ralof and then have to kill the captain to get the keys to a gate ... and then go to castle dour to find Rikke herself alive there How can it be the same person? Yet millions of players never realized it
This almost reminds me of the forceful negotiation between Batman, Sal Maroni and The Chechen from Batman: Gotham Knight (yeah, I know that he's actually called The Russian in the series, but still). Bats: You get the docks, you get to stay in the slums. That's the arrangement until I can get something on you. Then you can fight over who gets the top bunk in Blackgate. Got it? Sal: The docks are yours.
I kind of wish they'd have given you the chance to flip sides in the civil war after Season Unending. Yeah, it could result in multiple battles for Whiterun, but it would fun all the same. UESP mentioned something about an early build having you get thrown out of your chosen faction if you're too biased to the other side. Too bad they couldn't make that work. Would've been awesome.
Damn, the high and mighty Empire on their moral high horse massacred civilians at a Mill? That's both hilarious and tragic. And Tullius reaction is even more apt. "A mill burned down? Boohoo." Good to see a video with such bad negotiation options, since I'd never pick them.
@@LordVader1094 The fact is how they are not even slightly apologetic about it, instead deny it while pretending to be on a moral high horse. Sickening.
@@angramainyu9220 Fair on that, I don't remember how Ulfric and Galmar reply to that though. Still, it's the Empire that pretends to be on a moral high horse everywhere..
@@KaimArgonarEyyyy Galmer tries to deny it like how Rikke tries to deny Agni's Mill. And Ulfric pretty much says that the massacre was Tullius' fault, saying that all the blood spilled from the war is on his head. Even though Ulfric is the one who started the war.
Maybe for once i should let Elenven stay just so i can hear Ulfric tell her to shut up….. and maybe get a chance to shout her off the mountain afterwards
Tell me if someone has already made this similar comment: It would had been interesting if the Dragonborn could use the proof he found in the Thalmor headquarters that the Thalmor is behind everything of the civil war. How would things go out then? Ok, it will or may go bad for the Dragonborn for infiltrating the Thalmor headquarters, but I guess it will be worse for the Thalmor when they get exposed for being behind everything of the civil war in Skyrim.
it would be irrelevant since both of them already know this, ulfirc hates them and know they want to keep his rebellion in a eternal stalemate and so does tulius, also at the end of the day elves or not the empire wants to control skyrim and skyrim wants to be free
I have a glitch which means I can't finish the Rescue at Fort Kastav quest and now Markarth remains in the hands of the Stormcloaks. I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't the Silverbloods who are in charge.
I really wish there was an option where once one side has enough territory in the war you could just end it peacefully like tell one side “look we control most of Skyrim, we could either sack solitude like we did whiterun, or we could end it here now”. Or vice versa with the imperials.
There's a rare dialogue from general Tulius that he wants to join the fight against the thalmor side by side with Ulfric because the empire are not as it used to be. This dialogue makes me choose to side with Ulfric on every playthrough. Imagine, a literal general of a large chunk of army would rather fight along with his enemy than his own side.
It's an open secret that the Empire is in ruins, their only holdings are Skyrim and High Rock, and High Rock is landlocked from them after the Stormcloaks take control, so they are effectively worm food. Cyrodiil alone is nothing compared to an alliance between all four nations of man in a war against the aldmeri dominion. There's another reason to fight for Skyrim's freedom
@@dbelow_1556 worm food, huh? Why give it the coup de grace and not rather the possibility of starting to make up for itself? And which sort of alliance might arise from umpteenth provinces detached from each other?
@@fabriziodefrancesco7083 Cutting off the dying Empire is like cutting off an infected gangrenous limb, the influence of the Thalmor has made it and any provinces under its control too compromised to be trusted to fight. Their spy networks have thoroughly compromised Cyrodiil, and they've put a foot in the door at Skyrim, likely High Rock as well. An army infected from the top down cannot wage war, no matter how much it's bided its time. The second anyone tries to make a move that can do any damage to the AD, they'd have their throat slit, or worse, their plans leaked. At the very least, if the Stormcloaks gain independence, the problem will be isolated to Cyrodiil. The Alliance of all four nations of man banding together against the AD to prevent them from committing a genocide on all their homelands seems like it'd be stronger than being controlled by a godless, compromised, crumbling empire without Hammerfell. A grand total of three provinces, all with agents waiting in the wings to tear the foundations out from under them at a moment's notice.
@@dbelow_1556 yeah, Hammerfell...and who tells you that it couldn't gradually reconcile with redguards, once slammed in Thalmors' face the victory in the civil war, ending so it with over 20 years of concordat? (since it was because of THAT, they broke away from the Empire..)
@@fabriziodefrancesco7083 The Empire abandoned Hammerfell, the Redguards will never forgive the Mede dynasty, this is pure headcanon on your part. Hammerfell alone held off Aldmeri occupation, they don't need the Empire anymore and neither do its northern neighbors
Just because I always play the empire I give everything to Ulfric, and then rekt them when I finish the war. Playing the stormcloacks is kinda sad, killing Tullius instead of killing Ulfric, and Jarl Ballin loses his town
The empire is in a state of decay atm with proveniences like Hammerfell and Skyrim being militarily and politically powerful enough to self-rule over their independent Kingdoms without an outdated bureaucracy micro-managing them. A defensive alliance between all the Kingdoms of Men could replace the Legion.
I find it stupid, your the dragon born for Pete's sake! You have a bigger claim to the throne of Skyrim then some random rebel, would be a fitting end if you could claim it and start a new dynasty even if it will no doubt cause many many problems
Yeah but no one would recognize your claim to the throne of Skyrim, it'd be like if someone said they were Jesus Christ reborn and thus they own the Vatican and are the new Pope now. No one would just be like "well I guess he's got a point" they'd literally just kill you if you even tried
@@thor8765 yeah but you have the ability to stop time, have proof you saved the world from getting vored so I think it's pretty different. It would be like Napoleon becoming emperor, it would be difficult but not impossible. Plus you have the support of the common folk assuming your a nord dragon born or even Breton. Plus you didint murder the old king, unlike a certain person who never went around slaying dragons and saving people.
Wtffff in 11 years of playing I never knew this could happen. I rarely touched the civil war after the 1st 5 years of playing skyrim over saturated the war from me.
dk if you can call em brave or just downright foolish ulfric or tullius acting like big boys talking smack to the dragonborn a solid unit who could whoops their asses into the dire 1 hand behind his back and no shouting...
I only found out about this quest this year. I didn't know it existed. I always win the war for Tulius and then assassinate the Emperor before finishing the main quest
I love how ulfric's insight proves how stupid his war with the Empire is. I mean he basically just confirmed that in all honesty the promises with the Thalmor is just a ploy to buy time. His own insight literally proves that he's only interested in taking Skyrim for himself. The only traitors to Skyrim are the stormcloaks & ulfric, & the irony is he proves it pretty much every time he makes his silly little speeches. It's 1 thing to revolt but when the only one's who stand to really gain anything from it is the enemy it's simply an exercise in insane futility. Lol Edited for better wording.
Sure, let's ignore how his priorities after the war is to rebuild and upgrade skyrim and his militar power to later prepare for a war with the Thalmor. But hey right, he only thinks on the throne and power, sure.
@@twiddlerat9920 seriously? The man was betrayed by the Empire, arrested because their Thalmor masters demanded it. They let him rot in a cell while his father died. And even then, when he get out and returned to Windhelm to be a Jarl, he didn't rebelled against the Empire. He searched for the political solution and talked about being independent during the moot of Torygg, trying to get a peaceful independence with the support of his king. But even his king was an incompetent and didn't do anything. All his country was and is falling apart because of the imperial influence and because of the coward "High King" that he was having. So, after knowing all this, you would still say that "he would have sided with the empire"? Don't make me laugh. He doesn't care about power. He cares for Skyrim and to take down the Thalmor properly. Period.
Can anyone answer how and why Skyrim has sold so many times? The writing for the majority of the main quests is horrendous. I understand aged at this point but even some ps2 rpg games have more depth and better plot points than some of these Skyrim quests.
By the nine, Ulfric is a damn cry baby about any choice you make regardless it's just another reason to not like that milk drinker. Also hate that there's no way to get rid of Elenwen & Thalmor from attaching themselves to the Empire. There should have been more flexibility with the story for such a heavy conflict.
This video shows the worst possible outcome in the negotiations for the Stormcloaks. Every choice was made in favor of the Empire. If the terms are even, and even slightly favorable for the Empire, it is actually Tullius who complains.
@@JoseAlejandro-xc6fb both are being used as Thalmor puppets. The Empire directly, though unwillingly, and the Stormcloaks through the war Ulfric started.
@@litewave5186 that's true except for one thing, that the war wasn't started by Ulfric. The fact is that if it wasn't for the empire a moot would have been made and would have elected Ulfric (that had the majority of the holds supporting him for that moment) after Torygg's death. But precisely, the Empire gived a fuck about the Nordic traditions and didn't allowed a moot to be made just because it would have let them with no influence over Skyrim. It was the empire the one who started the war, not Ulfric. Even then, both sides are favoring the Thalmor's game by continue fighting. But the empire is more puppet and lapdog of the Thalmor than the Stormcloaks. Even after an imperial victory, the Thalmor are still there sabotaging and doing what they want to make that the empire never recovers. That's why objectively, the Stormcloaks are better.
@@JoseAlejandro-xc6fb ok, I'll give you that one about the Thalmor still influencing things. However, Ulfric left Solitude when he killed Torygg. According to Ulfric's own words, the Imperials are weak soldiers who he could easily have fought off with the Voice, and didn't. At the end of the Stormcloak questline you fight through Imperial forces and he [Ulfric] makes Elisif swear fealty to him-- something he could have done the first time around, to minimalize bloodshed. If Ulfric had stayed in Solitude to do the exact same things he does during the Stormcloak questline the Civil War would not have happened, at least not the way it did, as the Empire's forces would be mostly gone, other than its supporters. there's also something he says at the end of the same questline: [LDB]:"So, do I call you High King now?" [Ulfic]: "No, not yet. *We'll wait for the Moot to name me High King.* It'll be better for all that way. But, that doesn't mean I won't still start acting like it. There's much to do. The new Jarls need help building armies, and enforcing their right to rule. The Empire may try to reclaim Skyrim, and I need everyone ready for that. Though the biggest threat, of course, is the elves." Note that he says he wants the moot to *elect* him as High King... when he just fought a war, replacing every Jarl that wasn't on his side with one that *would* vote for him, essentially rigging the Moot in his favor.
@@litewave5186 no, he didn't left solitude, he was being kick out of there by the imperials, precisely to avoid him to make the moot. If it wasn't for the empire, Ulfric would have waited in solitude waiting for the moot to be made. But the imperials were kicking him out, trying to execute him, the man that by right of duel and if the moot would be made, would have become High King, only because for the empire isn't favoring their interests. That's why Rogvir helped him and was later executed by "treason", by allowing Ulfric to get out of there. And yes he didn't, because he clearly states that he doesn't use the power of the Thu'um lightly. If he wanted it, he could go through every hold shouting apart everyone who is against him. But he's not doing it, because he knows that that's abusive and it's against the teaching of the greybeards. He says that perhaps would have fall of his teachings, but he still honors the philosophy in his own way, and that's why he doesn't use the thu'um lightly in the lore. And no, Ulfric couldn't have done that the first time around, one because the Empire was backing Elisif for that moment, meaning that she had the power to reject Ulfric and two, because for that moment Ulfric didn't have neither the political power to make her swear that, that's why he does that AT the end of the Stormcloaks questline, when he already have get rid of the imperial influence entirely of Skyrim, when Tullius, the militar governor was killed, when his soldiers and his influence is already in all Skyrim. Basically he could do it now and not before, because he has now the political backing to make Elisif to swear loyalty. As Falk firebeard says, it's genius. If Ulfric would have stayed in Solitude, a moot would have been made and he would be already a good king that would have getting rid of the Thalmor and would be rebuilding and reinforcing Skyrim and the Nords. But precisely, he couldn't stay there because the empire didn't allowed him to, they kick him out at desperately to avoid that their influence would get rid of Skyrim. And yes, he's waiting for the moot to be made, even when he already have the support of every Jarl, is pretty obvious that he would be king, and no one would be against him politically talking, the man still waits for the LEGAL way to be properly king. The fact that he waits for it (the moot) instead of directly consider himself as king show that he's not doing this by egocentrism, shows that he's not an authoritarian neither a greedy leader. And again, he could simply name himself king without the moot because he's already the king, just like he could use his power of tongue to conquer Cyrodiil or any land he wants nearby. But he's not doing it, he restrains himself, does not abuse his power unless necessary and does not consider himself the king until he is legally called king. That shows his a good leader and not an ambitious one, or at least, not negative ambitious. Furthermore, Tullius and the empire do the same thing with Elisif, imposing their influence and replacing the Jarls to support her. Difference is, that Ulfric already had the majority of the Jarls votes before, when Torygg died (he had The Pale, Winterhold, Eastmarch, The Rift and Falkreath as Stormcloak supporters) and he had also won a duel to dispute the title of High King. What i'm trying to say is that although both sides do the same of putting Jarls to support their respective candidates unanimously, at least Ulfric has the legitimacy, by right of duel and because he already had the political backing by default, to ensure his position as king.
Just realized if u do it this way; all 3 of the worst corrupt families in Skyrim get power. As opposed to only 2 if you finish the Stormcloak campaign, or only 1 if you do the Imperial campaign. Truly, this is the worst timeline
Bully Maguire killed Vittoria Vici - ua-cam.com/video/uDOnFCXLJ0M/v-deo.html
Ulfric shutting up Elenwen is a gem. Thanks for making my day better.
Truly the actions worthy of a "puppet"
fucking hell Imperials have nothing going for them other than empty promises
YES! God, I lit up like a rocket when he said that!
Lol
I think Imperial or Stormcloak, most of us can agree that was awsome...
@Hermaeus Mora
Funny asl. I support the empire, I just hate the Thalmor.
@@ninjan1nja The Empire doesn’t like the thalmor either they have to tolerate them until they can defeat them.
I find amazing how BOTH of them start talking about how the other should give them territory, instead of trying to help us kill the dragons. Both lsay they love Skyrim, and yet don't try to kill the real menace.
Plus Riften is so much worse off under Imperial control, I mean Maven Black-Briar has total control over everything as opposed to just 89% control over everything, the Talos shrine was smashed and graves were desecrated, there's still a rampant crime problem, I mean Riften was one of the few Stormcloak holds that was actually doing well for itself beforehand, probably the least racist one too. The empire managed it terribly
As for Markarth, they're screwed either way, Forsworn and Silver-Bloods make it such a shite place to live, the empire couldn't deal with it and I doubt the Stormcloaks could either, especially if they have to march reinforcements all the way to the west of Skyrim from Windhelm.
@@basedbattledroid3507 totally agree with you. Maven is a psycho and the silver bloods aren't any better.
@@gabrieldossantos6347 Yeah in all seriousness she is one of two Skyrim characters that I actually hate and not even in an ironic/funny manner like people love to hate Nazeem. She’s so realistically horrible in how she sits at the center of a web of corruption and what sealed the deal for me was that quest involving her son.
That's the most realistic part. "We'll get to the literal apocalyptic threat in a moment. What's in it for me to stop the world from ending?"
Nah, ulfric loves power, himself, & hearing himself talk. Pay careful attention to the specifics of what he says, & how he says it. If he truly loved Skyrim he'd work with the empire instead of wasting their time fighting each other in a petty power struggle that the Thalmor are using to weaken Imperial & Nordic influence over Skyrim as a whole. If he really cared he wouldn't have been so vicious towards Elisif whose husband he killed. He wouldn't be killing its people for simply refusing to side with him instead of the empire. He wouldn't have forced the Dark Elves to live in the slums, or banned the Argonians from the inner city. He wanted power, & saw the Talos ban as his key to take it.
Tulluis : give us riftin or else
The dragonborn: ok
Tullius: ok
Also Tullius: the dragonborn is helping the stormcloaks
11/10 comment
Ulffic: yeah... taking Morthal might not be such a bad idea :^
Also Ulfric: these terms are unnaceptable we're leaving >:V
Bethesda "choices" in a nutshell, lol
@@LordVader1094 As if that weren't enough all the content cut but-not-completely...the province is dotted with "traces of" missions, characters, locations, dialogue options/lines..
I did the Imperial side of this in my current playthrough.
I made Elenwen leave to keep Ulfric happy (like Tulius ain't gonna give her a full report anyways...) I even said this is so Ulfric has to bend to us later.
Naturally, Ulfric demanded Markarth and the Reach which there is NO way around.
I played it down to placate Ulfric, and got Tulius the Pale instead of the Rift. I did this knowing that Tulius would demand Winterhold next, to which I agreed to.
Then, Tulius demanded compensation for the Karthwasten Massacre, to which I also agree to.
So the terms were:
Ulfric gets:
>Markarth and the Reach (which I had no input on)
>Elenwen left (kinda pointless if you think logic/lore wise)
The Imperials got:
>Dawnstar and The Pale
>Winterhold
>Money for Karthwasten
Reminder that means Tulius got TWO holds, even if they're smaller, controls almost the entire northern seaboard, and are right at Windhelm's doorstep.
And he was moaning and whining how I betrayed the empire and that the silver from Markarth was such a loss (he's getting gold for Karthwasten), like..... Bruh. We totally got the better deal, chill.
What's even more insulting is on the technical level this arrangement is considered "balanced" point wise, favoring neither side on a behind the scenes point system.
Yeah this whole negotiation thing can be really stupid. I remember the first I did it. I told tullius he should ask for riften. But ulfric ended up refusing the deal and tullius called me a traitor. Then I tried it again but told him to ask for Dawnstar instead and this time it ended with ulfric handing over riften. Nice logic Bethesda
The damn thieves really can't live without Skyrim's silver.
I disagree about your take on Markarth. It’s not about the Imperials having access to silver, it’s about having access to the profits that the silver mines potentially make. In business terms, the empire would get a better cash flow from the mines by having a passive income from the tax’s rather than compensation for the attack. Assuming this war lore wise was long, having enough money to pay not just the soldiers but rations and equipment would be very handy to use.
I got the "imperial ening" and reloaded because I wanted to be neutral...apparently the "neutral ending" makes everyone happy with the results BUT you'll be treated as an enemy by imperials at imperial camps while stormcloack soldiers are 100% chill..Not even Cipius is friendly so my quests are screwed. It doesn't make sense
@@tiio6883 Yeah, I'd be more ok with it if both sides are hostile or neither are
Faction leaders: hmmm… that WOULD give us quite the advantage in this area.
Also faction leaders: WTF, DRAGONBORN!!!
Ulfric straight up telling Elenwen to shut up is all I need to join the Stormcloaks.
Siding with the Stormcloaks is a victory for the Thalmor
@@thatguy3421 Nah. They just think it is.
Ikr 😬😅🐻💙💪🏼
@@ThrillaWhale dont mind That Guy comment friend. imperials like to sleep hugging their beloved thalmor dossier that was written by the their overlords. Talos guard you
@@gabrielbitencourt3729 😂
Wait I’ve always dismissed elenwynn, I didn’t know ulfric told her to shut up like that omg 😭😭😭
we both haha. that was new to me
I never knew Vignar could be present for Season Unending!
After battle for Whiterun siding with the Stormcloaks
Me too, I always met him leaving the place before the conference and I thought it was a glitch
Regardless whether you side with the Stormcloaks or the Empire, Maven becomes the Queen-Bitch of Riften. That's the part of the game I cannot stomach, especially since it wasn't Leila Law-Givers fault Riften was rife with corruption, it was her elf steward working in conjunction with Maven.
Never trust an altmer it seems
there is actually a way... if you finish the stormcloack campaign and then the main quest there will be no negotiation at all
@@dragonslayerornstein2361 Shes a bosmer.
@@crestfallenwarrior5719 Ok never trust an elf steward
@@dragonslayerornstein2361 kinda racist, dont you think?
Ulfric is such a poetic and interesting character and his voice actor is great. Tullius has my respect as well, but not on the level as Ulfric. None of the characters are 1 dimensional.
Ulfric is such a manbaby though
Ulfric: "These terms are worth as much as piss. They're unacceptable."
Ulfric, seconds later: "Well sure, why not."
#Bethesdawriting
@@levant4620 Better than being a babybaby like all the elder council and the emperor.
yeah they're all 3d
@@adel5637 I would have laugh reacted.
Never knew Vignar could attend the truce negotiation. I though once the stormcloaks got Whiterun, Vignar would just let you trap the dragon in Dragonsreach
No. You have to fully finish the civil war for that, regardless what side you choose.
Because he's an asshole.
I've never seen this dialogue before after 2 years of playing what a gem. 3:15 lol I never knew this was a thing
Lol, maybe because everyone gets her out
"Shut up, and sit your fine Thalmor ass down!"
Jk (kinda)
Lol
@@dilloncrowe1018 fine?🤨📸. Bro has a thing for elves it seems
@@theprestige5472 that's why I put the JK, the kinda is for the "shut up" part, as in, "yes, shut up, but I'm just kidding about the ass thing".
Lol
@@dilloncrowe1018 idk man. I belive we have a thalmor lover here
I think Ulfric acts more respectable here than in the one most players get
I think he is feeling confident as he won Whiterun Hold, The Reach, and Falkreath, lore-wise. Many players reached Season Unending in neutral or before taking second hold for their chosen Civil War faction.
Edit1: Meta-wise - It is because 1) the player didn't comply with Ulfric's demand to kick out Elenwen, Thalmor Ambassador and it gives a "favor point" to Imperial, also making Stormcloaks look more patient lore-wise; 2) General Tullius state his demand first, even when Stormcloaks had won over Whiterun Hold, Falkreath Hold, and The Reach, basically Empire lost thrice and only holding Hjalmarch and Haafingar by that point; 3) The side "favored" by Dragonborn standing-up-and-backing-down, this time Stormcloaks; 4) No compensation for massacre in DB-favored side's area.
I recently discovered that Laila Law-Giver and her steward Anuriel will go to the Palace of the Kings if you decide to give Riften to the Legion. Usually when a Jarl gets replaced they go to the Blue Palace in Solitude.
The jarls aligned with the empire go to the Blue Palace. The jarls aligned with the Stormcloaks go to the Palace of the Kings
There should be a mod that puts the defacto leaders in jail or something
@@FlashX212 Or have them go to camps that you can attack
@@FlashX212 it is exile.
I actually like this quest.
A nice break from dungeon crawling.
Is this a part of main quest?
It is, but only if you haven't completed most of the civil war quest.
Otherwise it's skipped.
@@emberZemian what if i have not joining the side yet? Are the mission is available?
@@andreekusuma8779
Yes, it appears very late in the main quest line if you are not allied to either side or if you have only begun the civil. War.
Ulfric: dont hand me a cup of sheep’s piss and call it mead
Ulfric 2 seconds later: Baaaah
3:42
Galmar: You slaughtered them - the women, the children! You butchers!
Be honest, Galmar’s passion is the only reason people join the Stormcloak rebellion.
The older I get, the more and more I like Ulfric.
He is a racist why
@@jaredgable390 He's a nativist, actually. Big difference. And it's because he's putting his people first. He's not perfect by any stretch, don't get me wrong. But he wants to use Skyrim's recources to help Skyrim first. As it should be. He also wants his people to be able to live their lives their way. Not the way the Empire tells them. Which is a foreign agent.
@@shadow-monger5189 still racist
@@unreliablenarratorz2772 Okay. Whatever you say.
@@shadow-monger5189 damn right
I had no idea you could do the peace councel after you started the Civil war
I tried giving them the city they wanted because i wanted it neutral, But The general Tullius still gets mad
@Urarettin I agree I hate when they get mad when you tried to at least give them what they want
I did a chad move and gave riften to the empire and markath to the stormcloaks, W W for both of them
these terms were not even remotely fair lmao. Morthal is a shitty swamp town and Riften is a great and wealthy city, albeit one rife with corruption. and when the Stormcloaks asked for reparations due to a war crime in their territory, the Dragonborn was like "uhhh maybe it happened, maybe it did not???"
this is how it should have went down :
Empire gets compensation for Karthwasten massacre
Stormcloaks get compensation for the butchery at Anga's Mill
Empire gets Dawnstar, a shitty port settlement
Stormcloaks get Morthal, a shitty swamp settlement
in both cases, shitty Jarls are replaced by more competent alternatives, both sides are compensated for the inexcusable crimes of the other side, and both receive settlements of equal value.
sorlie isn't a compitent jarl at all
@@saekisadako2118 why not? She doesn't get many lines in-game and we don't get a real feel for her leadership style, HOWEVER, Sorli is slept on. She is the ONLY jarl on any side of the Civil War who has an Argonian on her court, making her one of the more accepting jarls in game.
A 2-way compensation makes zero sense. That's just circular money flow. The Dragonborn was right to not let that fly. You demand reparations AFTER a war is won, not when you're just going for a temporary armistice.
Dawnstar is an important stopping point between Solitude and the rest of Tamriel, not to mention the only port that feeds directly from the Sea of Ghosts.
Riften hasn't been a rich city since the 3rd Era, corrupt politicians and money-hungry idiots drained the city's coffers, which is why its in the state it's in.
Riften ALSO has no direct land route to any Imperial territory. True, Morrowind to the south-east is technically still imperial, it is functionally independent, meaning resupply of troops stationed there cannot be guaranteed. It's basically encircled and gives the Empire no benefit whatsoever.
Morthal is an important strategic location, as it sits right near the only road in and out of Haafingar. Financially and culturally it is insignificant yes, but in terms of fighting a war, taking Morthal without violence is like the Legion putting a dagger to their own neck.
@@serbreton823 mhm sure that's why people start saying that idgord was way better and sorlie just uses her position to make money.
A shitty port settlement is a port settlement, after all.
The very very first time I did season unending, I had a real on the spot moment, when the grey beard spoke to me to get my answer / responses , and then everyone's eyes were on me I was like " gulp" what do I do or sposed to say, I had to wiki the quest, as I didn't want it going the wrong way ...
Damn, such confidence, worthy of a dragonborn
@@KaimArgonarEyyyy Well it was the first time, I'd even done this quest to this stage and was try to keep thing even on either side, because I did not favor either one at the time
Ah yes, the true reason everyone eventually picks a side in the skyrim civil war: to avoid the pointlessly stretched out truce meeting where you don't know what's going on.
Really? I didn't pick a side and finished it with three dialogue options.
1. Kick Elenwen
2. Swap Markarth and Riften
3. Stormcloaks compensate for Karthwasten
Nothing confusing about it at all
@@oivanurminen8946 in a nutshell if you want to avoid the truce you pick a side. But other then that's the neutral pick out of the point system if you didnt pick a side. If you join either imperials, or stormcloak in the middle of the cival war. Then points system comes in to play. Giving on more ground or taking it. But imo the neutral is the better pick then wasteing time to see who gets who.
3:45 did they send anakin or something
It’s disappointing that they chose to make a stupid territory dispute rather than have both sides agree to simply stop fighting for the time being. Hell, there should have been an option to point that out.
Stupid, but realistic.
Even more so given the one holding this could probably slaughter the hole room like nothing at this point.
Look I joined the Imperials. But Elisif needs to calm the fuck down. Torygg didn't even care about being murdered. He only felt bad that he left his wife in despair. But that's no reason for Elisif to be triggered all the fucking time.
I mean her husband was killed and now she has to talk about peace treatys with his murderer at one table. She has every right to be pissed.
@EnderwaveYT Yea, not at all anything messed up about sitting across from her husband's murderer as he sits there intentionally mocking her, & her late husband. Totally unreasonable of her to get mad over that. That's sarcasm btw. I'd be wantin to ring ulfric's neck with my bare hands were I in her place. I'd shout him through the wall, & end the matter right there. I really hope that's a joke cause otherwise that comment would make you a sociopath if you seriously don't see anything to be "triggered" about.
She's basically a child, utterly useless without her Steward or master Tullius telling her what to do. Truly a puppet Jarl.
So you'd be perfectly chill if you had to sit down at a peace talk with the person who murdered your spouse, and proceeds to mock you? Lol
She's probably 20, young and inexpert
I love how they put you next to your executioner, and Esbern next to Arngeir.
i believe she's not the same woman legionare that is present at helgen.
That's not the same person. The imperial at the beginning was a redguard captain, while the lady here is a nord.
@@angramainyu9220 No, she was Imperial.
You legit kill your executioner lol
@@rmzCrush hehehehe she isn't...Suppose we escape from helgen with ralof and then have to kill the captain to get the keys to a gate ... and then go to castle dour to find Rikke herself alive there
How can it be the same person?
Yet millions of players never realized it
I like how Tullius stands up for the Dragonborn despite being an enemy when Ulfric doubted your loyalties.
This almost reminds me of the forceful negotiation between Batman, Sal Maroni and The Chechen from Batman: Gotham Knight (yeah, I know that he's actually called The Russian in the series, but still).
Bats: You get the docks, you get to stay in the slums. That's the arrangement until I can get something on you. Then you can fight over who gets the top bunk in Blackgate. Got it?
Sal: The docks are yours.
I kind of wish they'd have given you the chance to flip sides in the civil war after Season Unending. Yeah, it could result in multiple battles for Whiterun, but it would fun all the same.
UESP mentioned something about an early build having you get thrown out of your chosen faction if you're too biased to the other side. Too bad they couldn't make that work. Would've been awesome.
Damn, the high and mighty Empire on their moral high horse massacred civilians at a Mill? That's both hilarious and tragic. And Tullius reaction is even more apt. "A mill burned down? Boohoo."
Good to see a video with such bad negotiation options, since I'd never pick them.
I mean they're not wrong. Civilians always die in war. I'm sure the Stormcloaks did their fair share of war crimes too.
@@LordVader1094 The fact is how they are not even slightly apologetic about it, instead deny it while pretending to be on a moral high horse. Sickening.
This happens with both sides. Agni's mill for the empire, and karwasten for the stormcloaks.
@@angramainyu9220 Fair on that, I don't remember how Ulfric and Galmar reply to that though. Still, it's the Empire that pretends to be on a moral high horse everywhere..
@@KaimArgonarEyyyy Galmer tries to deny it like how Rikke tries to deny Agni's Mill. And Ulfric pretty much says that the massacre was Tullius' fault, saying that all the blood spilled from the war is on his head. Even though Ulfric is the one who started the war.
Maybe for once i should let Elenven stay just so i can hear Ulfric tell her to shut up….. and maybe get a chance to shout her off the mountain afterwards
That´s the way to do it!
The humans are talking truces while Alduin is hovering outside ready to kick some dragonborn ass.
Ok but what happens if you trigger Season Unending after the stormcloaks have taken both Markarth and Morthal?
After the Stormcloaks have taken Morthal Season Unending aren't triggered
Once mortal or winterhold is taken season unending won't Trigger
I don't understand why they have to exchange holds and won't just stop fighting for like a week while I, you know, stop the whole world from ending.
Black Briar and Silver-Blood becoming Jarls before the end of the war was a pretty cool outcome, even as a Maven hater.
Im trying to play an imperial, but every time I try I end up wanting to be a stormcloack again :v I don't like killing rebels.
I generally side with the empire but still kill more thalmor than stormcloaks
@@andryuu_2000 that's fair
Tell me if someone has already made this similar comment:
It would had been interesting if the Dragonborn could use the proof he found in the Thalmor headquarters that the Thalmor is behind everything of the civil war.
How would things go out then?
Ok, it will or may go bad for the Dragonborn for infiltrating the Thalmor headquarters, but I guess it will be worse for the Thalmor when they get exposed for being behind everything of the civil war in Skyrim.
Probably nothing. The Empire tries to kick them out, great war 2 starts.
it would be irrelevant since both of them already know this, ulfirc hates them and know they want to keep his rebellion in a eternal stalemate and so does tulius, also at the end of the day elves or not the empire wants to control skyrim and skyrim wants to be free
I didn't think the negotiation table was available in the middle of Civil War quest line. I always thought it only happened before starting it.
A good option for an ethical player that dislikes Ulfric personally.
The best outcome is give the Thalmor nothing.
Even Tulius knows that.
Thalmor are a greater threat than Dragons.
Only the wise will understand.
Well the dragons would end the world
@@Chris18o0 There is some theory that the thalmor are also trying that
I would love to see the other side of this!🤩 Just excellent!!
To be honest, the winning of the civil war is whomever the dragonborn sides with.
How funny, this is usually the other way around.
I have a glitch which means I can't finish the Rescue at Fort Kastav quest and now Markarth remains in the hands of the Stormcloaks. I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't the Silverbloods who are in charge.
I really wish there was an option where once one side has enough territory in the war you could just end it peacefully like tell one side “look we control most of Skyrim, we could either sack solitude like we did whiterun, or we could end it here now”. Or vice versa with the imperials.
If you control 8 out of 9 holds, this quest gets skipped.
Empire getting Riften would mean Maven would be jarl there. Fuck no. The Empire can get anything else, just not Riften. lol
its acually crazy how mutch effort bethesda put into this quest
I remember getting to this scene during my first playthrough 10 years ago but I didn't get it in my current playthrough. Any idea why?
Dragonborn:what about morthal
Me (who loves morthal): :D
Ulfric:ew
Me: D:
There's a rare dialogue from general Tulius that he wants to join the fight against the thalmor side by side with Ulfric because the empire are not as it used to be.
This dialogue makes me choose to side with Ulfric on every playthrough. Imagine, a literal general of a large chunk of army would rather fight along with his enemy than his own side.
It's an open secret that the Empire is in ruins, their only holdings are Skyrim and High Rock, and High Rock is landlocked from them after the Stormcloaks take control, so they are effectively worm food. Cyrodiil alone is nothing compared to an alliance between all four nations of man in a war against the aldmeri dominion. There's another reason to fight for Skyrim's freedom
@@dbelow_1556 worm food, huh? Why give it the coup de grace and not rather the possibility of starting to make up for itself?
And which sort of alliance might arise from umpteenth provinces detached from each other?
@@fabriziodefrancesco7083 Cutting off the dying Empire is like cutting off an infected gangrenous limb, the influence of the Thalmor has made it and any provinces under its control too compromised to be trusted to fight.
Their spy networks have thoroughly compromised Cyrodiil, and they've put a foot in the door at Skyrim, likely High Rock as well. An army infected from the top down cannot wage war, no matter how much it's bided its time. The second anyone tries to make a move that can do any damage to the AD, they'd have their throat slit, or worse, their plans leaked. At the very least, if the Stormcloaks gain independence, the problem will be isolated to Cyrodiil.
The Alliance of all four nations of man banding together against the AD to prevent them from committing a genocide on all their homelands seems like it'd be stronger than being controlled by a godless, compromised, crumbling empire without Hammerfell. A grand total of three provinces, all with agents waiting in the wings to tear the foundations out from under them at a moment's notice.
@@dbelow_1556 yeah, Hammerfell...and who tells you that it couldn't gradually reconcile with redguards, once slammed in Thalmors' face the victory in the civil war, ending so it with over 20 years of concordat? (since it was because of THAT, they broke away from the Empire..)
@@fabriziodefrancesco7083 The Empire abandoned Hammerfell, the Redguards will never forgive the Mede dynasty, this is pure headcanon on your part. Hammerfell alone held off Aldmeri occupation, they don't need the Empire anymore and neither do its northern neighbors
youtube chose a bad time to recommend this
If you do this is there and additional quest where you retake riften? or is it just a random patrol/camp raid in rift.
I didn't even know you could do this
The Companions aren't supposed to be in politics lol. He needs to calm down he's wild
Elisif might as well not even be there lmao
Just because I always play the empire I give everything to Ulfric, and then rekt them when I finish the war. Playing the stormcloacks is kinda sad, killing Tullius instead of killing Ulfric, and Jarl Ballin loses his town
But Maven gets Riften and that doesn't sit well with me
@@Merc7734 but who you do like more, Balgruf? Or the jarl of Riften who I don't remember her name? Do you like more Tullius? Or Ulfric?
@@Merc7734 Both sides will have a corrupt jarl. Maven for Riften with the empire, and the silver-blood guy for Markarth with the stormcloaks.
JArL bALliN
Theres a mod that replaces maven as jarl
So it swaps around if one side loses a location
Level 80 Dragonborn: "How about you all agree to a truce and I don't throw literally everyone in this room off the mountain top?"
What have you done? Why are you a traitor now?
what?
The empire is in a state of decay atm with proveniences like Hammerfell and Skyrim being militarily and politically powerful enough to self-rule over their independent Kingdoms without an outdated bureaucracy micro-managing them. A defensive alliance between all the Kingdoms of Men could replace the Legion.
@@John-115 a federal empire instead of an actual direct empire?
Ukraine needs to take some notes rn
Ukraine is not part of Russia since the 80s, while Skyrim has been part of the Empire for a thousand years
I find it stupid, your the dragon born for Pete's sake! You have a bigger claim to the throne of Skyrim then some random rebel, would be a fitting end if you could claim it and start a new dynasty even if it will no doubt cause many many problems
Yeah but no one would recognize your claim to the throne of Skyrim, it'd be like if someone said they were Jesus Christ reborn and thus they own the Vatican and are the new Pope now. No one would just be like "well I guess he's got a point" they'd literally just kill you if you even tried
@@thor8765 yeah but you have the ability to stop time, have proof you saved the world from getting vored so I think it's pretty different. It would be like Napoleon becoming emperor, it would be difficult but not impossible.
Plus you have the support of the common folk assuming your a nord dragon born or even Breton.
Plus you didint murder the old king, unlike a certain person who never went around slaying dragons and saving people.
To the empire's throne
Frankly, Ulfric should be glad to be rid of Riften. His own city is already sufficiently crappy.
Yeah I turned him into a girl. Once again I control my world.
Wtffff in 11 years of playing I never knew this could happen. I rarely touched the civil war after the 1st 5 years of playing skyrim over saturated the war from me.
dk if you can call em brave or just downright foolish ulfric or tullius acting like big boys talking smack to the dragonborn a solid unit who could whoops their asses into the dire 1 hand behind his back and no shouting...
Lols just shut it ulfric, !!!, but I wouldn't ever turn riften over to mavern ever >
I’m afraid she has control regardless of what side wins. One officially and the other through her giant web of connections
I hate season unending quest. A real reason why i complete Civil War first & then Continue the Storyline
I only found out about this quest this year. I didn't know it existed. I always win the war for Tulius and then assassinate the Emperor before finishing the main quest
What if the opposite
I love how ulfric's insight proves how stupid his war with the Empire is. I mean he basically just confirmed that in all honesty the promises with the Thalmor is just a ploy to buy time. His own insight literally proves that he's only interested in taking Skyrim for himself. The only traitors to Skyrim are the stormcloaks & ulfric, & the irony is he proves it pretty much every time he makes his silly little speeches. It's 1 thing to revolt but when the only one's who stand to really gain anything from it is the enemy it's simply an exercise in insane futility. Lol Edited for better wording.
He wants his people to be free.
The exact same can be said for the Empire.
Sure, let's ignore how his priorities after the war is to rebuild and upgrade skyrim and his militar power to later prepare for a war with the Thalmor. But hey right, he only thinks on the throne and power, sure.
@@JoseAlejandro-xc6fb If he didn't only care about being in power he would have sided with the empire
@@twiddlerat9920 seriously? The man was betrayed by the Empire, arrested because their Thalmor masters demanded it. They let him rot in a cell while his father died. And even then, when he get out and returned to Windhelm to be a Jarl, he didn't rebelled against the Empire. He searched for the political solution and talked about being independent during the moot of Torygg, trying to get a peaceful independence with the support of his king.
But even his king was an incompetent and didn't do anything. All his country was and is falling apart because of the imperial influence and because of the coward "High King" that he was having.
So, after knowing all this, you would still say that "he would have sided with the empire"? Don't make me laugh.
He doesn't care about power. He cares for Skyrim and to take down the Thalmor properly. Period.
Can anyone answer how and why Skyrim has sold so many times? The writing for the majority of the main quests is horrendous. I understand aged at this point but even some ps2 rpg games have more depth and better plot points than some of these Skyrim quests.
By the nine, Ulfric is a damn cry baby about any choice you make regardless it's just another reason to not like that milk drinker. Also hate that there's no way to get rid of Elenwen & Thalmor from attaching themselves to the Empire. There should have been more flexibility with the story for such a heavy conflict.
This video shows the worst possible outcome in the negotiations for the Stormcloaks. Every choice was made in favor of the Empire. If the terms are even, and even slightly favorable for the Empire, it is actually Tullius who complains.
Vignar as the Jarl of Whiterun is equivalent to Joe Biden being president of the US
Wrong
@@borrburison648 yeah Biden is less cringe than Vignar
L take
Ulfric is a fool, unknowingly manipulated by Thalmor.
The one is a fool is the Empire playing the Thalmor's game by wasting resources and focus on a land that doesn't needs them.
@@JoseAlejandro-xc6fb both are being used as Thalmor puppets. The Empire directly, though unwillingly, and the Stormcloaks through the war Ulfric started.
@@litewave5186 that's true except for one thing, that the war wasn't started by Ulfric.
The fact is that if it wasn't for the empire a moot would have been made and would have elected Ulfric (that had the majority of the holds supporting him for that moment) after Torygg's death. But precisely, the Empire gived a fuck about the Nordic traditions and didn't allowed a moot to be made just because it would have let them with no influence over Skyrim.
It was the empire the one who started the war, not Ulfric.
Even then, both sides are favoring the Thalmor's game by continue fighting. But the empire is more puppet and lapdog of the Thalmor than the Stormcloaks. Even after an imperial victory, the Thalmor are still there sabotaging and doing what they want to make that the empire never recovers.
That's why objectively, the Stormcloaks are better.
@@JoseAlejandro-xc6fb ok, I'll give you that one about the Thalmor still influencing things. However, Ulfric left Solitude when he killed Torygg. According to Ulfric's own words, the Imperials are weak soldiers who he could easily have fought off with the Voice, and didn't. At the end of the Stormcloak questline you fight through Imperial forces and he [Ulfric] makes Elisif swear fealty to him-- something he could have done the first time around, to minimalize bloodshed. If Ulfric had stayed in Solitude to do the exact same things he does during the Stormcloak questline the Civil War would not have happened, at least not the way it did, as the Empire's forces would be mostly gone, other than its supporters.
there's also something he says at the end of the same questline: [LDB]:"So, do I call you High King now?" [Ulfic]: "No, not yet. *We'll wait for the Moot to name me High King.* It'll be better for all that way. But, that doesn't mean I won't still start acting like it. There's much to do. The new Jarls need help building armies, and enforcing their right to rule. The Empire may try to reclaim Skyrim, and I need everyone ready for that. Though the biggest threat, of course, is the elves."
Note that he says he wants the moot to *elect* him as High King... when he just fought a war, replacing every Jarl that wasn't on his side with one that *would* vote for him, essentially rigging the Moot in his favor.
@@litewave5186 no, he didn't left solitude, he was being kick out of there by the imperials, precisely to avoid him to make the moot. If it wasn't for the empire, Ulfric would have waited in solitude waiting for the moot to be made. But the imperials were kicking him out, trying to execute him, the man that by right of duel and if the moot would be made, would have become High King, only because for the empire isn't favoring their interests. That's why Rogvir helped him and was later executed by "treason", by allowing Ulfric to get out of there.
And yes he didn't, because he clearly states that he doesn't use the power of the Thu'um lightly. If he wanted it, he could go through every hold shouting apart everyone who is against him. But he's not doing it, because he knows that that's abusive and it's against the teaching of the greybeards. He says that perhaps would have fall of his teachings, but he still honors the philosophy in his own way, and that's why he doesn't use the thu'um lightly in the lore.
And no, Ulfric couldn't have done that the first time around, one because the Empire was backing Elisif for that moment, meaning that she had the power to reject Ulfric and two, because for that moment Ulfric didn't have neither the political power to make her swear that, that's why he does that AT the end of the Stormcloaks questline, when he already have get rid of the imperial influence entirely of Skyrim, when Tullius, the militar governor was killed, when his soldiers and his influence is already in all Skyrim. Basically he could do it now and not before, because he has now the political backing to make Elisif to swear loyalty. As Falk firebeard says, it's genius.
If Ulfric would have stayed in Solitude, a moot would have been made and he would be already a good king that would have getting rid of the Thalmor and would be rebuilding and reinforcing Skyrim and the Nords. But precisely, he couldn't stay there because the empire didn't allowed him to, they kick him out at desperately to avoid that their influence would get rid of Skyrim.
And yes, he's waiting for the moot to be made, even when he already have the support of every Jarl, is pretty obvious that he would be king, and no one would be against him politically talking, the man still waits for the LEGAL way to be properly king. The fact that he waits for it (the moot) instead of directly consider himself as king show that he's not doing this by egocentrism, shows that he's not an authoritarian neither a greedy leader.
And again, he could simply name himself king without the moot because he's already the king, just like he could use his power of tongue to conquer Cyrodiil or any land he wants nearby. But he's not doing it, he restrains himself, does not abuse his power unless necessary and does not consider himself the king until he is legally called king. That shows his a good leader and not an ambitious one, or at least, not negative ambitious.
Furthermore, Tullius and the empire do the same thing with Elisif, imposing their influence and replacing the Jarls to support her. Difference is, that Ulfric already had the majority of the Jarls votes before, when Torygg died (he had The Pale, Winterhold, Eastmarch, The Rift and Falkreath as Stormcloak supporters) and he had also won a duel to dispute the title of High King. What i'm trying to say is that although both sides do the same of putting Jarls to support their respective candidates unanimously, at least Ulfric has the legitimacy, by right of duel and because he already had the political backing by default, to ensure his position as king.
Just realized if u do it this way; all 3 of the worst corrupt families in Skyrim get power. As opposed to only 2 if you finish the Stormcloak campaign, or only 1 if you do the Imperial campaign. Truly, this is the worst timeline
You can always rectify it afterwards.