My favourite recent occurance was when in recent Smogon Tournament Iron Thorns managed to get off 3 dragon dances and was sweeping with Tera Grass. Until it missed Supercell Slam and died
In defense of Branch Poke, I can kinda see the reasoning. It's a replacement for Vine Whip for a physical grass starter pokemon who doesnt really have vines as a part of their design, but is designed around having a stick in hand. Its more an aesthetic thing but it does also even out the power of the starters' first stab attacks. (40 vs 45)
Temper Flare also sees some niche use on Great Tusk in singles. If Great Tusk uses eq/Headlong Rush into a Corviknight or Skarmory switching in, temper flare can then hit for big damage. It works because Great Tusk is otherwise walled by these pokemon
i guess alluring voice is something for jolteon since it's move pool is extremely dire ever since gen 8 leaving it completely walled by grass and dragons
1:14 To be fair, there *is* a case in Gen 7 where they added a new grass type weak move - Leafage - and it was kinda a big deal because physically-oriented Grass type starters were kinda left lacking in early-game before that.
@@ash_sunday Yup. Which makes Branch Poke feel SUPER unnecessary (especial in the gen that started dexit-ing moves) as it's basically Leafage but *Grookey-flavored*. Meanwhile, physical water starters like Totodile, Mudkip and Quaxly have to rely on water gun until their next best option, Aqua Jet...which is also 40 BP. (and some like Mudkip don't even get access to it.)
@@aghadlarhen9397 yeah it takes a while to get a physical water move for the mudkip line, and by that i mean needing to wait until you eventually get waterfall and branch poke was just always strange since this move is only learned by grookey and phantump as their early grass move....like why is it that grass now has 4 early game moves with vine whip, absorb, leafage and branch poke
Why are special attacks allowed to be so blatantly more powerful than physical ones? Literally just think about the fact that thunderbolt has the SAME STATS as wild charge but because it's a physical attack it needs recoil somehow? The balance between physical and special stats in Pokémon is so borked it's genuinely surprising the devs have done *nothing* to try and balance the game around it (such as adding frostbite into the main series like sane people)
@@mrhalfsaid1389 mans acting like not almost all priority and multi hit moves are physical. zero drawback special moves almost always cap out at 90. (the strong ones like fire blast and hydro pump have terrible accuracy of 85%,80% or even 70%, whereas the only relevant physical moves that have accuracy worse than 90% are rock moves). Earthquake is a free 100 bp move with almost no drawbacks, it's one of the big reasons that they are so good. Close Combat is basically free 120 bp fighting coverage on any mon with arms. For many types, they usually have one special move and it's either 80/90 bp. Its just that electric pokemon don't have good physical moves the same way fighting pokemon don't have good special moves (like they have either focus miss or 0 distribution 80bp aura sphere lol) Game freak doesn't care about balancing types, they care more about lore (im not sure what the word is but they usually care more about feel and inworld lore rather than balance, like stakeout is given to only spy pokemon, and why purifying salt randomly gives ghost resist) Like just look at iron valiant, it has a physical type in fighting and a special type in fairy, that's why it has to run mixed sets to maximize its potential, or else its dealing with mediocre moves on one its sides. Lucario runs physical even though its special is stronger Dragapult often runs special even if its physical is a whole 20 points higher and gets DD. The balance of types is often favored towards what they feel like, and its just that electric doesn't feel very physical, but we shouldn't pretend like physical types are shafted when earthquake exists...
@@mrhalfsaid1389well wild charge being a recoil move makes sense, because it’s a reckless rage induced charge made by a user cloaked in electricity, however I think that supercell slam is really good regardless
@@Swampy0 What It doesn't make sense is its BP of 90. Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, Wave Crash and Double Edge are all 120 but this shit is only 90??? Take off the recoil, let it be a regular attack with no drawbacks and give Volt Tackle to more Pokémon other than the Pikachu like ffs GF.
Upper Hand is really frustrating from a game design perspective. They need to stop making moves that just outright fail if some niche condition is not met. At least with Sucker Punch it's considerably more powerful and attacking is the most likely thing you'll be doing in a turn anyways
Yea its tricky I agree, Upper hand should do Feint level damage at least or something, I've tried it a few times on different mons and it usually gets used once, trying to predict a fake out, and then never again. Usually it fails to be useful eben in tjat situation for me, I feel silly packing it as a fourth move, I decided at least my Hitmontop would literally be better running Feint and swapped it 😅 Im ok with the whole high-jump-kick type move, those are fine to me as a risk/reward mechanic but I just hate having a moveslot that feels like its not doing its job lol
@@WetchopClips but they don't because you have to be psychic to get consistent value off of it. Missreads are too punishing to even consider it a meta check
Going over all of these moves in terms of Singles - You'll sometimes see Gouging Fire use Raging Fury. It's just as strong as Flare Blitz and max strength Heat Crash without the drawbacks of recoil or being weight dependant, and Gouging Fire is both bulky and strong enough that being locked into the move isn't too detremental. - Temper Flare is mostly just a coverage move you'll sometimes see on a Great Tusk. Distribution is another thing holding this move back, lots of Pokemon would love physical Fire coverage. - They really dropped the ball with Supercell Slam. In Singles, you also need to contend with Ground being on pretty much every good team. Though it still sees more use than Wild Charge since physical Electrics are depressed. - Dragon Cheer is very much a Doubles move. - I don't think anyone uses Upper Hand. - Misty Explosion has one good use case. Lead Slurpuff can set up Sticky Web, activate its Focus Sash to proc Umburden, then use Misty Explosion to get a free switch into something else while also preventing hazard removal attempts. - Alluring Voice is an appreciated coverage move for Pokemon like Jolteon, Skeledirge, and Meloetta. Its secondary effect also comes into play a good amount in Singles with setup being more common. - Hard Press is bad.
whenever it comes to electric types, the physical side has always been given the middle finger, unless they get a bomb ass signature move, physical electrics are always doomed to fail
I don't really get why GF refuses to make a decent, widespread, physical electric move. It's like they're afraid of making it overpowered, but electric isn't the greatest offensive typing (only hits 2 types super-effectively and ground is immune to it), while types that are much more threatening, like Fire, Fighting or Ground have strong options like Flare Blitz, Close Combat or the simple yet effective Earthquake. Also, Hard Press should top at 150 power, like Water Spout and Eruption. Again, it wouldn't be OP because steel isn't the best offensively and most of the Pokemon that get it are really slow so they wouldn't be able to abuse the move outside of niche strategies like scarf metagross or trick room (in singles).
ngl if Hard Press could hit for 150, I would be playing Metagross on my Tailwind doubles team all the time, this would get super scary. Maybe a maximum 120 would make it ok, and there should be a minimum of 40/50 dmg at low hp so it's not utterly useless once you've chipped your opponent enough.
@@WutendPLayZ Absolutely. Plasma Fists IMO should become widespread. Zing Zap as well with its only user in Gen 9 being freaking Pincurchin; it can’t even take advantage of its’ 30% flinch rate. Double Shock doesn’t really have much reason to be exclusive either. Pawmot already has Revival Blessing; probably one of if not the single most broken move in the game. Really the only physical Electric moves I’m fine staying exclusive is Fusion Bolt/Bolt Strike, Bolt Beak and maybe Aura Wheel.
I think you're a bit confused regarding Hard Press, it deals damage with respect to the opponent's health not the user's health. So a metagross with 100% hp using hard press on a golem with 100% hp will deal 100 damage to it and the same goes for metagross with 1% hp using hard press against Golem with 100% hp
It’s just frustrating that they are intent on keeping Volt Tackle a Pikachu exclusive move, so now other Electric types can’t get access to their version of Flare Blitz. What they should do is raise Volt Tackle’s power to 150 and turn it into electric Head Smash, and then turn Supercell Slam into the reliable 120 BP recoil move with wide distribution.
Your reasoning makes sense, but I'd say the low usage of Temper Flare is moreso a coverage and distribution problem. There's only around 80 pokemon capable of learning Temper Flare, and 3/4 of them are fire types with far better STAB options. That leaves you with a very small pool of mons that COULD run it as coverage - but even then some don't need it, get other fire moves, or have better coverage options from other types. By contrast, Stomping Tantrum is learnt by over 200 pokemon, and across a much wider variety of types. Earthquake is probably one of the best coverage moves you can have, so for the mons who lack it and want that valuable ground type coverage, things like Stomping Tantrum and High Horsepower are the next best thing. Being single target also lends a niche for doubles, where you might not want the spread effect of EQ - a problem fire type doesn't really have to deal with as much. Great vid though!
Basically this. Stomping Tantrum also had this problem in Gen 7. (Most things that could get it, already ran EQ). Given its flavor text, it would be interesting on mons that don't learn fire moves but have a propensity for aggression. (Like Gyarados, a water-type.)
@@aghadlarhen9397 Gyarados is one of the few non-fire types that get it yeah. There's a few other ones who learn Temper Flare like Granbull, Salamence, Rhyperior and Toucannon that back up the 'aggression' logic - but it could totally be applied to more!
Misty explosion at least sees use as a suicide move on lead slurpuff (also has sticky web and iirc unburden). Supercell slam sees use in singles in the lower tiers if the mon is looking for coverage or is a physical electric mon
Upper hand is actually pretty great on hitmonlee. Unburden hitmonlee with focus sash and reversal biggest weakness is priority moves but that gets stopped with upper hand
@@StarmenRock But you were the one to write number to discredit someone that found a good niche for a move. If "being nerdy" gets someone into trash can in your neighborhood then I'm sorry for you for where you live.
Okay so Primarina has Liquid Voice so all Sound Moves become Water. This lets you run Psychic Noise and Alluring Voice as single target Water moves. Also a lot of things do not get Moonblast and Dazzling Gleam is spread damage so for a move that hits the same as Shadow Ball this is not to bad as coverage or as a very solid hit coming from a few oddball things that don't get Moonblast. But in my opinion the whole Liquid Voice use is not to bad when you want safe single target Water damage seeing as Scald is not as wide spread. While Hyper Voice is a cool move to use for Liquid Voice this gives you a much needed set of single target moves and at that point you are able to have some solid damage that also offers some okay effects.
With Stomping Tantrum, there’s also the consideration that Flying is immune to Ground, so if you use Stomping Tantrum on a target, and a flying type switches in to take it, you get a free 150 BP. Nothing is immune to Fire types, so you’re relying on coverage to get your secondary effect off
Personally the type of move I find the most fascinating aren't the ones that are decent but outclassed by existing moves, but rather the ones that have unique effects but have such low value and/or low distribution that they see no use whatsoever anywhere, be it in singleplayer or any competitive format. I'm talking moves like purify (heals the target's status condition, only learned by pyukumuku), ion deluge (turns all normal type moves used this turn into electric type, only learned by a few random low tier electric types like toxtricity and lanturn) and powder (covers the target in powder and if they try to use a fire type attack this turn it fails and they take 25% damage, only learned by vivillon and ribombee in gens 6-7)
Something that I'm still surprised is thag we don't have an special dragon dance. Like a move that raises your speed and special attack. Not like Quiver dance. I feel like it should be a thing by now. Possibly a fairy type
That’d be too broken. Fairies already are eating good since most are bulky and most don’t have to worry about speed since many are slow enough to where a +1 won’t matter. If they start boosting their speed then it’ll just be annoying as hell to fight against. Distribution would need to be super limited since I don’t think anyone would bother with dragon dancers when fairy is not only a better move but fairy special moves are much more deadly than their physical moves.
@@browserjunior4707 Oh I meant the typing. Like to do the parallel that some boosting moves have. Like calm mind and bulk up. I mean yeah, good point. But is not like only dragon types get dragon dance. And is not like only reptile ones got it
When you mentioned Branch Poke, I thought this was going to go more in-depth about very pointlessly made moves in recent gens. Seriously, only 2 lines of Pokémon learn that move that is basically Leafage, which was introduced the generation before Branch Poke was. I kinda hate how there's been this over-saturation of signature moves for a bunch of Pokémon after gen 8 scrubbed a bunch of moves. It's like their approach is to erase/replace things rather than improve on them. I enjoy myself some level-up moves for the sake of the main game adventure, which is why I hate when they got rid of moves like Bubble or Flame Burst or Signal Beam. Bubble is overall better than Water Gun-hits multiple targets with a chance to reduce speed. Flame Burst was that in-betweener for Ember and Flamethrower. Signal Beam was a decent coverage move and sometimes was the precursor to learning Bug Buzz. And another problem that has happened is that because a bunch of string moves have been turned into TMs, they erased some of those moves from a Pokémon's natural moveset. I've learned this while playing PokéRogue when I used Vikavolt and was wondering why I couldn't relearn Air Slash like in gen 7 and that's because they got rid of it since it's a TM move in gen 9. Similar thing happened with Braviary and Brave Bird of all moves. And I still haven't forgiven gen 8 nixing Blaziken's ability to relearn High Jump Kick. I don't care if Close Combat is technically better, it's convenient when you don't have the resource. Also, Blaziken is very known for KICKING. HELLO?!?!
Temper flare is actually decent in singles, but its more of a distribution thing than anything: if mons like great tusk, gyarados, and salamence got better physical fire moves they would use those instead
Same goes for alluring voice: skeledirge, latias, manaphy, and eeveelutions not named sylveon dont get any better fairy moves, so this is their best option
Honestly all upper hand needs to be good is a higher priority than fake out and the ability to work on prankster status moves. That’d be enough for it to see some decent use.
I don't think Temper flare should be in this list, because there are plenty of non-Fire Pokémon that learn it (Gyarados, Salamence, Granbull, Revavroom...) and they really enjoy having Fire coverage
Temper Flare is at least good for Pokemon who don't have a better Fire move, like Gyarados. Personally, Hard Press should take the percentage remaining HP and multiply it by 1.3 to get it's base power. Could also add a flinch effect if you want.
As a singles player, it really stung to read the text "It's honestly a stretch to say that Great Tusk is even meta relevant anymore." Great Tusk is EXTREMELY meta relevant in Smogon.
Similar to the point about having little reason to add more 40 base power early game moves at this point, Temper Flare has some merit from a game progression standpoint. Like with a pokemon such as Flareon, there’s little in-between from Flame Wheel to Flare Blitz for it, since it can’t learn Fire Punch. Temper Flare potentially helps with that, though not at the moment since it’s a post-game TM. Also Temper Flare giving Gyarados a Fire physical move is really funny.
Alluring Voice has niche use with Throat Spray on Primarina, and as a cool coverage option for the Eevees, but it is very niche and Moonblast is usually generally superior
In singles, alluring voice is just a better version of dazzling gleam. Same base Power and PP, but has a secondary effect and is sound based, which means it hits through substitute
alluring voice is fairly decent in singles where its basically an upgrade to dazzling gleam that can hit through substitute and moonblast is limited in distrobution, but dazzling gleam is just so much better in doubles (or pixelate hyper voice for sylveon)
you forgot trailblaze. I was excited for this move when I first saw it. it is a grass type version of flame charge with much widder distribution. the problem is that gamefreak mostly focused on quantity over quality. most pokemon with this move tend to fell to one of these categories: -they are so slow that speed boosts are worthless(clodsire.ursaluna) -they are so fast that they rarely if ever need to set up (zamazenta, ribombee) -they are glass-canons and can't survive more than one attack (meowscarada, greninja) -they just have better options (volcarona has quiver dance, rilaboom has priority). also there is the extreeme case of serperior where it would become slower if it used it. there are rarely any instances where this move sees play.
@@Aidsrian how many pokemon can you think that "commonly" use it? seriously how many? the only pokemon I can think is ogerpon-water, and it does not use it all that often.
@@videakias3000Iron Leaves, all the Paldean Tauros, Scyther / Scizor / Kleavor, Heracross, all the Ogerpon, Medicham, Mamoswine, Ursaluna, Zarude, Entei, etc. all at least use the move sometimes. Basically if you're a physical wallbreaker and you need a bit of Speed and/or a Grass move
Supercell slam in singles is actually really interesting purely because some of the distribution, specifically on some ground types like great tusk or ursaluna, who tend to lose out to mons like corviknight normally. As stab its not great but its a nasty option for some mons
Normal power creep is up but the overall power level is down. We no longer have Z-moves, Dynamax, Xerneas/Yveltal, Primal forms, Ultra Beasts and these were all the strongest pokemon previously. Standard mons are stronger but the power ceiling is lower. Except for Calyrex-Shadow
From a VGC and Smogon perspective, these all make sense, however from a BSS perspective (which I play), Upper Hand is a move to look out for. I think BSS is the format we tend to see the most amount of gimmick sets, and I have failed to consider Upper Hand being an option on many pokemons and got bamboozled several times at the hands of Terrakion, Samurott-Hisui and Weavile/Sneasler. I know there are many more users, but these 4 are the ones that got me so far. As niche and bad this move can seem, when it gets you, it's often game changing, and I think it's perfectly fine as it is to be honest. Over than that I also expected Silk Trap to be in this video. It's probably the worst Protect-like move (which is weird because gen9 gave us both this and Burning Bulwark at the same time) and it was given to a really bad pokemon too.
Silk Trap’s effect is fine. I would have preferred it to be -2 speed personally, but even at -1, one could make the case it beats out Obstruct from gen 8 because of the speed control. Also technically, Bulwark was not at the same time since it was a year later in the second DLC. If Silk Trap were on a good pokemon, maybe it’d have some merit.
@@superzenmodeman yeah that's the main problem, having it be -1 speed on a pokemon that has 35 speed BST makes it unusable as anything hitting you will most likely still outspeed you afterwards. However I'd say Obstruct is better coz it makes the opponent super vulnerable if they try to hit you, unlike Silk Trap which just slows you down. Being slower can mean certain death for some frail pokemon, having -2 in defence means certain death for pretty much anything.
That definition is not what power creep is. It’s just the addition of more pokémon of the same power which increases the pool of “strong” pokémon so fewer and fewer count as strong the more are added. The new pokémon aren’t stronger.
Physical electric's are just forever screwed, unless they get a really good signature move, the pickings for physical electric moves will constantly be dire, as your options are the barely passable Thunder Punch, the bad Wild Charge or the risky Supercell Slam also want to add that if a physical electric is something like luxray (i.e. has no arms), its even worse as then your stuck with only wild charge or supercell slam to use (Boltund however is able to avoid using those moves thanks to strong jaw, meaning it can utilize a boosted Thunder Fang for STAB)
Definitely agreed on. Especially Alluring voice. It’s just for Pokémon that don’t get dazzling gleam, like Milotic maybe. Finally a good fairy coverage. Might also just be an upgrade to disarming voice
This is one good thing about the move upper hand: we can finally play rock paper scissors using a Hitmonchan with upper hand, focus punch, and mach punch
Temper Flare is good on Flareon. In fact, it's the best fire move Flareon has atm because of Flareon's low HP. Flareon (and really all the Eeveelutions) really could use their LGPE move tutor moves.
Ik this is mainly coming from a competitive standpoint but Temper Flare and Supercell Slam are fantastic in the basegame to make physical fire and electric types who don't get the elemental punches actually usable
The battle system doesn't do much in favor of those moves either. Simply put, battles in Pokémon are about having all opposing Pokémon's HP reduced to 0. To do so, one would naturally prioritize damaging moves over non-damaging ones. And considering the opponent wants to do the same to one's team, it turns the scene into a race competition. The primary resource players have to handle are the turns. They represent the times Trainers get to do something ; note players don't have control over spatial maneuver in battles so we can't attack from a distance, from behind an obstacle or involve any form of field strategy outside of the condition it's in (entry hazards, elemental fields, etc). Basically, in the games, Pokémon are sitting ducks taking order each turn to do something. The one thing one would NOT want to do, unless voluntarily, is to do absolutely nothing during a turn. The way damage works, a battle can be done within an equal amount of turns than the opponent's number of Pokémon ; it's really fast. There's not much merit into stalling out a victory outside of strategic purpose (stall) and annoying the opponent. Knowing this, which type of moves a common player would be expected to use ? Simple, low risk high reward ones. This is the reason why moves like Earthquake are so common over situational ones like Dream Eater : you want to deal damage, high and accurate with nothing in the way of that. Simple ! Any move that fails to meet such a requirement is already second-guess tier with all the other struggling moves out there. (Using Flamethrower over Fire Blast dilemma) Now, about the moves suggested in the video, they already fail the fundamental aspect. There is no reason to pick a move susceptible to both waste a move slot and your turns in battle. At their best, these moves don't provide much of a benefit and at their worst, they either deal low damage, waste you a turn, makes you predictable or even makes you lose a Pokémon. In other words, some of them are low reward high risk options : you don't want that ! Moves should normally be designed around the battle system. For example: - Hyper beam like moves could keep their high base power but your next move would deal halved damage. - Older moves could be reworked rather than adding new ones (Fury swipes-like moves hit like Population bomb and Triple Axel instead of rolling a number of times)
Upper hand is great in doubles because of incineroar- you know without a shadow of a doubt that ahole is going for fake out every time it switches in. It also has strategies like unburden hitmonlee with endure+reversal, which baits in priority moves.
it makes sense because if you make another move as consistent as ice beam or thunderbolt with en extra effort then the new move just replaces the old one, yet these moves depend alot on there extra efforts to matter but they are just not consistent enough to take when your move slots are a key limit
People just don’t understand the balance behind those abilities. Most of the really strong abilities are either on legendaries, mega evolutions, or pokemon balanced around them.
I still can't believe that GF didn't make an Electric priority move until now, then made it the signature move of Raging Bolt. Like they seriously gave GRASS, historically the most common type in VGC, a priority move before Electric got one. The type known for having Pokemon with high speed stats because there's a reason "lightning quick" is a saying to begin with.
Idk why hard press isn't like dragon energy, eruption or water sprout but instead of your health, the rivals. The difference of why wouldn't you end spamming it like the rest is because most pokemons are pretty slow + the move is single target.
Supercell Slam might finally see its day when Victini (and its signature ability) is re-released into the singles meta. Usually, to run supercell slam and not have to deal with the inconsistency, you need to run something like a wide lens, and giving up your item slot for it is just a really bad deal. With Victini, it doesnt even need to be in battle, it only needs to be on your team and you have a decently strong physical accurate electric move with no downsides - unless Victini itself gets it, in which case Bolt Strike is immediately the better option.
im not too familiar with singles meta, but a big downside is that you still take recoil hitting into protect or a ground type. id take the lower bp wild charge over the mind games anytime.
The only new move i use out of this list is Alluring Voice i have it on my Skeledirge for a great moveset: 1.)Torch Song, which increases Sp.Attack 2.)Scorching Sand, which has a chance to burn the target 3.)Alluring Voice, he explained the effects 4.) Hex, does double damage if the target gets burned or confused
Stomping Tantrum would be totally usable even if there was a Flare Blitz equivalent, at least by Ting Lu. Because of its interaction with Fissure, you get a turn with a 30% chance of a KO, followed by a 150 BP move.
A lot of these moves are actually useful in singles, particularly Alluring Voice. There are a lot of psychic types that were not given Dazzling Gleam. Do not ask me why seemingly at random a bunch of psychic types were given Dazzling and the others given Alluring voice, but that's just how they did it.
Shout out to steel beam. You thought supercell slam's 50% recoil when it misses was bad? How about 50% recoil when it hits! Your opponent switched into a bulky water type and only took 10%? Too bad, take 50%, use it one more time and you faint.
I was really excited for supercell slam at first I thought it would be electric type close combat Once again another year of waiting for a good physical electric move
Similarly Supercell Slam lets tusk threaten Corviknight and ohko pelipper Schrödinger's Tusk: before its first turn, Great Tusk could be running any move.
I guess it is fair that there is an expectation to make moves better and more powerful. I hope the same logic applies to defensive abilities and moves to counter these monstrous attacks.
If UpperHand also worked against Prankster and fake out that could be a fun gimick. Though most of the Pokemon that can learn Upper Hand also happen to be fighting types . While most Prankster Pokemon resist fighting moves and can retaliate with STAB moves if you guess incorrectly. Seems like a fun high risk high reward strategy for a future gen.
in singles or even a playthrough context, I would take supercell slam over wild charge any day of the week. still would’ve been nice if it were an electric typed high jump kick instead of jump kick
If they ever make another Mystery Dungeon game, Dragon Cheer is gonna be a scary move to deal with in Monster Houses if ya dont shut everything down immediately.
They should add low bp moves for early levels. Ghost types only get astonish or lick for early level moves. Both 30 bp and physical. Would be so easy to add something like soul sling as a simple 40 power special move or maybe make it 55 or 60 so it can work with technician and be stronger then shadow ball. Some others that’d be good for: Physical psychic 40 bp “magic hand” Physical fire 40 bp “sizzle” Physical water 40 bp “swim slam”
feel like there needs to be more basic (no secondary effect) moves with 100% accuracy and good power (like 90 base power) for: physical rock, special rock, physical electric, physical fairy, special, physical fire, etc..
I would like to point out that Alluring Voice is one of those moves that gets better or worse dpending on the format. I agree that in VGC it is just worse dazzling gleam but in singles it is objectively better dazzling gleam. The secondary effect is pretty niche but with dazzling gleam not having a secondary affect in singles and alluring voice being able to bypass substitute it is actually the optimal choice on pokemon who can learn dazzling gleam but don't get a better move, like moonblast, as fairy type coverage.
...Why IS Misty Explosion's base power so low, though? Its power should be 200 but go up to 250 in Misty Terrain to make it more like the moves it's trying to imitate! D: Also, why do the game designers have a grudge against physical Fairy and Electric types? The Fairies can't survive on just Play Rough forever, and Volt Tackle being exclusive to Pikachu's line is just criminal. Finally, why is Hard Press not an outright clone of Eruption and Water Spout, with power capping out at 150? Why is Supercell Slam not a clone of High Jump Kick? And how is Pokémon even still a franchise? -_-;
Ok but Supercell Slam is actually quite good in singles, mainly as you can take risks with accuracy, and not be as punished as hard, and protect isn't as common.
Upperhand can get a higher base power. But upperhand needs to fail, cause if it doesnt it could potentially be OP. Imagine a scenario where your pokemon would most likely faint, then you upperhand your teammate and it activates weakness policy or weak armor or something with +3 priotity. ... and Your teammate wont flinch because it didnt use priority. Also almost all pokemon can make use of it because of terrastalisation. Luckily this tech is limited to just comfey at the moment
I love pokerogue because it gives some of these useless moves to pokemon who actually benefit from them as egg moves (supercell slam is usually put on pokemon that are weak to water and get reckless and alluring voice is put on skelledirge who can unlock punk rock)
Alluring Voice is always better than Dazzling Gleam in singles, especially since it bypasses substitute as well. And since they're the same power, Alluring Voice is pretty much always the better option.
What really annoys me about upper hand is its +3 priority. This means half of the time it won't be ablo to stop the only priority attack worth stopping: Fake out. If it were +4, it would still have a nieche as a way to protect a partner from fake out, but it can't even do that...
So I actually added Raging Fury to a FireRed hack that I'm making... and in hindsight I'm not sure why I added it in the first place. I already gave Arcanine a Fire-type Extreme Speed so I have no clue why it needs that as well.
I wouldn’t mind if legacy weak moves were updated from time to time like it happened with Leech Life. For example, they could have updated moves like Karate Chop, Mud Bomb, Signal Beam, Sky Uppercut, etc so that they’re no longer just straight up worse versions of existing attacks that nobody uses in-game or competitively. Also you will not diss Supercell Slam when it’s the best thing that’s happened to Physical Electric mons since Gen 4. Also kudos to GameFreak for having the audacity of eliminating generic moves like Return, Hidden Power, Pursuit and nerfing the distribution of Knock off, Scald and Toxic. I wish they did the same to Sucker Punch and Stealth Rock. So predictable.
OK I'll make an argument about some of them Supercell Slam answered the issue a lot of electrics had... Too much recoil for their low base HP. It's interesting in singles... But yeah its bad. Alluring Voice gives weird Fairy move access on mons that didn't have it. Effectively Lapras. Kinda bad but its there Upper hand was the idea of them trying to counter Incineroar... Judging by Incineroar's in EVERY VGC since its introduction 30+% use rate... I think good. But yeah needs ...work. The rest I agree with 100%
Why is gf so scared to make a good physical electric move? Come on it won't break the game, and even if it would they already make shit like rage fist and fishious rend
I feel the main issue with supercell slam is that there is simply no physical electric move that has a good availability AND bp over 60... *60.* Literally why is it that special moves can just have high bp without drawbacks? Special attackers get far too much without even having the counterplay of something like burn as an option and we all just act like that's ok? Seriously special attackers are overly powerful compared to physical ones which have so much counterplay that it's genuinely impossible to say that special attackers are worse in any real way
Choice raging fury could see play in singles given the right conditions. And alluring voice has potential if it's ever on a serene grace av control type of mon. It all depends on whether the moves are allowed in further generations and whether they are on the right mons😅
I have no idea what they were thinking when they made Hard Press. Wring Out/Crush Grip aren't good moves. What made them think a Steel type version would've been better to the point of not sucking?
Upper hand being +3 make it not as reliable for protecting your partner from fake out, you need to be faster than the fake out user and a lot of mons with upper hand are slow fighting mons, the few fast ones are super fragile.
One move that i just find bad is order up.. for starters you need 2 spesific mons in a double battle otherwise the move fails.. it also does not help that dondozo also has +2 in all stats (excluding evasion and hit rate) so order up feels underwelming.. also doesnt help that dondozo doesnt get a way to protect its stats
My favourite recent occurance was when in recent Smogon Tournament Iron Thorns managed to get off 3 dragon dances and was sweeping with Tera Grass.
Until it missed Supercell Slam and died
Oof
lmao
💀
rip
😂😂😂
In defense of Branch Poke, I can kinda see the reasoning. It's a replacement for Vine Whip for a physical grass starter pokemon who doesnt really have vines as a part of their design, but is designed around having a stick in hand.
Its more an aesthetic thing but it does also even out the power of the starters' first stab attacks. (40 vs 45)
Alluring Voice is actually a valued coverage on Jolteon, Vaporeon and Skeledirge and Temper Flare is valued on Gyarados and Revaroom
Temper Flare also sees some niche use on Great Tusk in singles. If Great Tusk uses eq/Headlong Rush into a Corviknight or Skarmory switching in, temper flare can then hit for big damage. It works because Great Tusk is otherwise walled by these pokemon
Yeah alluring voice is so good for jolteon. Having a way to hit dragon types is great for it.
I like using Alluring Voice on my Farigiraf along with Hyper Voice so I have 2 options to proc Throat Spray
@@HighMightyWeaselcould use it on talonflame for stall too, if you fail a defog then you can kill ghold
i guess alluring voice is something for jolteon since it's move pool is extremely dire ever since gen 8 leaving it completely walled by grass and dragons
The one good thing about Temper Flare is that Gyarados finally gets a physical fire type coverage.
That you will never run over eq anyways. Give my boy power whip and bounce back.
@@panjhisahelsenordelospalil1717too bad the generation it gets it doesnt have ferrothorn
They gave it power whip but not fire lash… smh
1:14 To be fair, there *is* a case in Gen 7 where they added a new grass type weak move - Leafage - and it was kinda a big deal because physically-oriented Grass type starters were kinda left lacking in early-game before that.
they already had vine whip tho, they just didn’t wanna give that (or a really early razor leaf) to rowlet
@@ash_sunday Yup. Which makes Branch Poke feel SUPER unnecessary (especial in the gen that started dexit-ing moves) as it's basically Leafage but *Grookey-flavored*.
Meanwhile, physical water starters like Totodile, Mudkip and Quaxly have to rely on water gun until their next best option, Aqua Jet...which is also 40 BP. (and some like Mudkip don't even get access to it.)
@@aghadlarhen9397 monky problems ?
@@aghadlarhen9397 yeah it takes a while to get a physical water move for the mudkip line, and by that i mean needing to wait until you eventually get waterfall
and branch poke was just always strange since this move is only learned by grookey and phantump as their early grass move....like why is it that grass now has 4 early game moves with vine whip, absorb, leafage and branch poke
The fact that wild charge is still out classing any other physical electric type move is so sad
Why are special attacks allowed to be so blatantly more powerful than physical ones? Literally just think about the fact that thunderbolt has the SAME STATS as wild charge but because it's a physical attack it needs recoil somehow? The balance between physical and special stats in Pokémon is so borked it's genuinely surprising the devs have done *nothing* to try and balance the game around it (such as adding frostbite into the main series like sane people)
@@mrhalfsaid1389 brave bird, close combat, flare blitz, earthquake
@@mrhalfsaid1389 mans acting like not almost all priority and multi hit moves are physical. zero drawback special moves almost always cap out at 90. (the strong ones like fire blast and hydro pump have terrible accuracy of 85%,80% or even 70%, whereas the only relevant physical moves that have accuracy worse than 90% are rock moves).
Earthquake is a free 100 bp move with almost no drawbacks, it's one of the big reasons that they are so good. Close Combat is basically free 120 bp fighting coverage on any mon with arms.
For many types, they usually have one special move and it's either 80/90 bp. Its just that electric pokemon don't have good physical moves the same way fighting pokemon don't have good special moves (like they have either focus miss or 0 distribution 80bp aura sphere lol)
Game freak doesn't care about balancing types, they care more about lore (im not sure what the word is but they usually care more about feel and inworld lore rather than balance, like stakeout is given to only spy pokemon, and why purifying salt randomly gives ghost resist)
Like just look at iron valiant, it has a physical type in fighting and a special type in fairy, that's why it has to run mixed sets to maximize its potential, or else its dealing with mediocre moves on one its sides.
Lucario runs physical even though its special is stronger
Dragapult often runs special even if its physical is a whole 20 points higher and gets DD.
The balance of types is often favored towards what they feel like, and its just that electric doesn't feel very physical, but we shouldn't pretend like physical types are shafted when earthquake exists...
@@mrhalfsaid1389well wild charge being a recoil move makes sense, because it’s a reckless rage induced charge made by a user cloaked in electricity, however I think that supercell slam is really good regardless
@@Swampy0 What It doesn't make sense is its BP of 90.
Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, Wave Crash and Double Edge are all 120 but this shit is only 90???
Take off the recoil, let it be a regular attack with no drawbacks and give Volt Tackle to more Pokémon other than the Pikachu like ffs GF.
Upper Hand is really frustrating from a game design perspective. They need to stop making moves that just outright fail if some niche condition is not met. At least with Sucker Punch it's considerably more powerful and attacking is the most likely thing you'll be doing in a turn anyways
Yea its tricky I agree, Upper hand should do Feint level damage at least or something, I've tried it a few times on different mons and it usually gets used once, trying to predict a fake out, and then never again. Usually it fails to be useful eben in tjat situation for me, I feel silly packing it as a fourth move, I decided at least my Hitmontop would literally be better running Feint and swapped it 😅 Im ok with the whole high-jump-kick type move, those are fine to me as a risk/reward mechanic but I just hate having a moveslot that feels like its not doing its job lol
@@gillriet773 The only use is in UU against lokix but against almost everything else its actually useless.
Although moves like upper hand seem niche and gimmicky they still remain healthy for the meta game because they supply checks for top meta threats.
@@WetchopClips but they don't because you have to be psychic to get consistent value off of it. Missreads are too punishing to even consider it a meta check
@@gillriet773 Its not only predicting a priority move, the user also has to be faster (at least with fake out, dont know about +1 prio moves).
Going over all of these moves in terms of Singles
- You'll sometimes see Gouging Fire use Raging Fury. It's just as strong as Flare Blitz and max strength Heat Crash without the drawbacks of recoil or being weight dependant, and Gouging Fire is both bulky and strong enough that being locked into the move isn't too detremental.
- Temper Flare is mostly just a coverage move you'll sometimes see on a Great Tusk. Distribution is another thing holding this move back, lots of Pokemon would love physical Fire coverage.
- They really dropped the ball with Supercell Slam. In Singles, you also need to contend with Ground being on pretty much every good team. Though it still sees more use than Wild Charge since physical Electrics are depressed.
- Dragon Cheer is very much a Doubles move.
- I don't think anyone uses Upper Hand.
- Misty Explosion has one good use case. Lead Slurpuff can set up Sticky Web, activate its Focus Sash to proc Umburden, then use Misty Explosion to get a free switch into something else while also preventing hazard removal attempts.
- Alluring Voice is an appreciated coverage move for Pokemon like Jolteon, Skeledirge, and Meloetta. Its secondary effect also comes into play a good amount in Singles with setup being more common.
- Hard Press is bad.
Supercell slam would be decent if it was HJK but yellow instead of jumpkick they really blue balled the physical electric types with that horse shit
You can use Upper hand on Hitmonlee to hard middle finger a Gambit trying to revenge kill you.
Bruhh slurpuff isn't even in the game what are you talking about
I guess you play the tier where all pokemons are allowed
@@masteraryan3250Misty Explosion was introduced in Gen 8, and Slurpuff used it there. They’re only stating a time where it was commonly used.
whenever it comes to electric types, the physical side has always been given the middle finger, unless they get a bomb ass signature move, physical electrics are always doomed to fail
They should make a new move called Cell Slam and make it a equivalent to Jump Kick
And make Supercell Slam a high jump kick equivalent.
I don't really get why GF refuses to make a decent, widespread, physical electric move. It's like they're afraid of making it overpowered, but electric isn't the greatest offensive typing (only hits 2 types super-effectively and ground is immune to it), while types that are much more threatening, like Fire, Fighting or Ground have strong options like Flare Blitz, Close Combat or the simple yet effective Earthquake.
Also, Hard Press should top at 150 power, like Water Spout and Eruption. Again, it wouldn't be OP because steel isn't the best offensively and most of the Pokemon that get it are really slow so they wouldn't be able to abuse the move outside of niche strategies like scarf metagross or trick room (in singles).
volt tackle still being pikachus signature move is criminal
ngl if Hard Press could hit for 150, I would be playing Metagross on my Tailwind doubles team all the time, this would get super scary. Maybe a maximum 120 would make it ok, and there should be a minimum of 40/50 dmg at low hp so it's not utterly useless once you've chipped your opponent enough.
@@WutendPLayZ Absolutely. Plasma Fists IMO should become widespread. Zing Zap as well with its only user in Gen 9 being freaking Pincurchin; it can’t even take advantage of its’ 30% flinch rate. Double Shock doesn’t really have much reason to be exclusive either. Pawmot already has Revival Blessing; probably one of if not the single most broken move in the game. Really the only physical Electric moves I’m fine staying exclusive is Fusion Bolt/Bolt Strike, Bolt Beak and maybe Aura Wheel.
@@jschannel6319Revival Blessing is also learnable by Rabsca
I think you're a bit confused regarding Hard Press, it deals damage with respect to the opponent's health not the user's health. So a metagross with 100% hp using hard press on a golem with 100% hp will deal 100 damage to it and the same goes for metagross with 1% hp using hard press against Golem with 100% hp
It’s just frustrating that they are intent on keeping Volt Tackle a Pikachu exclusive move, so now other Electric types can’t get access to their version of Flare Blitz. What they should do is raise Volt Tackle’s power to 150 and turn it into electric Head Smash, and then turn Supercell Slam into the reliable 120 BP recoil move with wide distribution.
Your reasoning makes sense, but I'd say the low usage of Temper Flare is moreso a coverage and distribution problem. There's only around 80 pokemon capable of learning Temper Flare, and 3/4 of them are fire types with far better STAB options. That leaves you with a very small pool of mons that COULD run it as coverage - but even then some don't need it, get other fire moves, or have better coverage options from other types.
By contrast, Stomping Tantrum is learnt by over 200 pokemon, and across a much wider variety of types. Earthquake is probably one of the best coverage moves you can have, so for the mons who lack it and want that valuable ground type coverage, things like Stomping Tantrum and High Horsepower are the next best thing. Being single target also lends a niche for doubles, where you might not want the spread effect of EQ - a problem fire type doesn't really have to deal with as much.
Great vid though!
Temper Flare is great coverage for Pokémon that had no other Fire moves, like Great Tusk and Revavroom. This is the only Fire move they get
Basically this. Stomping Tantrum also had this problem in Gen 7. (Most things that could get it, already ran EQ).
Given its flavor text, it would be interesting on mons that don't learn fire moves but have a propensity for aggression. (Like Gyarados, a water-type.)
Good explanation for your reasonings
@@aghadlarhen9397 Gyarados is one of the few non-fire types that get it yeah. There's a few other ones who learn Temper Flare like Granbull, Salamence, Rhyperior and Toucannon that back up the 'aggression' logic - but it could totally be applied to more!
3:57 Game Freak give us a consistent, widespread physical Electric Type move challenge (impossible)
True
Thunder Punch, maybe? Kinda weak, I guess?
Thunder Punch is too weak for most pokemon
Anything under 80 base power without an amazing secondary effect is not going to be used often
Misty explosion at least sees use as a suicide move on lead slurpuff (also has sticky web and iirc unburden). Supercell slam sees use in singles in the lower tiers if the mon is looking for coverage or is a physical electric mon
Upper hand is actually pretty great on hitmonlee. Unburden hitmonlee with focus sash and reversal biggest weakness is priority moves but that gets stopped with upper hand
@@StarmenRockIf we count all 1025 pokemon then it's good roughly 0,001% of time. Much bigger than what you wrote
There is, at minimum, 5 mon has ability that stop priorities.@olafmikoaj3121
@@StarmenRockWhat is the chance of you being there?
@@StarmenRock But you were the one to write number to discredit someone that found a good niche for a move. If "being nerdy" gets someone into trash can in your neighborhood then I'm sorry for you for where you live.
Hitmonlee when Ghost-types 😢
Okay so Primarina has Liquid Voice so all Sound Moves become Water. This lets you run Psychic Noise and Alluring Voice as single target Water moves. Also a lot of things do not get Moonblast and Dazzling Gleam is spread damage so for a move that hits the same as Shadow Ball this is not to bad as coverage or as a very solid hit coming from a few oddball things that don't get Moonblast. But in my opinion the whole Liquid Voice use is not to bad when you want safe single target Water damage seeing as Scald is not as wide spread. While Hyper Voice is a cool move to use for Liquid Voice this gives you a much needed set of single target moves and at that point you are able to have some solid damage that also offers some okay effects.
With Stomping Tantrum, there’s also the consideration that Flying is immune to Ground, so if you use Stomping Tantrum on a target, and a flying type switches in to take it, you get a free 150 BP. Nothing is immune to Fire types, so you’re relying on coverage to get your secondary effect off
I mean technically there's flash fire mons, but Arcanine is running intimidate, Ninetales drought, houndoom sucks, ig there's chandelure?
Flash fire wants words
@@ashmyoshi3912 did you even think before commenting? if they have flash fire, TEMPER FLARE WONT HIT BECAUSE IT TOO WILL BE BLOCKED BY FLASH FIRE
@@lillyie Pretty much what he said
Yeah heatran
Personally the type of move I find the most fascinating aren't the ones that are decent but outclassed by existing moves, but rather the ones that have unique effects but have such low value and/or low distribution that they see no use whatsoever anywhere, be it in singleplayer or any competitive format. I'm talking moves like purify (heals the target's status condition, only learned by pyukumuku), ion deluge (turns all normal type moves used this turn into electric type, only learned by a few random low tier electric types like toxtricity and lanturn) and powder (covers the target in powder and if they try to use a fire type attack this turn it fails and they take 25% damage, only learned by vivillon and ribombee in gens 6-7)
Alluring voice has become a good coverage move for pokemon like jolteon
Something that I'm still surprised is thag we don't have an special dragon dance.
Like a move that raises your speed and special attack.
Not like Quiver dance.
I feel like it should be a thing by now. Possibly a fairy type
That’d be too broken. Fairies already are eating good since most are bulky and most don’t have to worry about speed since many are slow enough to where a +1 won’t matter. If they start boosting their speed then it’ll just be annoying as hell to fight against. Distribution would need to be super limited since I don’t think anyone would bother with dragon dancers when fairy is not only a better move but fairy special moves are much more deadly than their physical moves.
@@browserjunior4707 Oh I meant the typing. Like to do the parallel that some boosting moves have. Like calm mind and bulk up.
I mean yeah, good point. But is not like only dragon types get dragon dance. And is not like only reptile ones got it
When you mentioned Branch Poke, I thought this was going to go more in-depth about very pointlessly made moves in recent gens. Seriously, only 2 lines of Pokémon learn that move that is basically Leafage, which was introduced the generation before Branch Poke was. I kinda hate how there's been this over-saturation of signature moves for a bunch of Pokémon after gen 8 scrubbed a bunch of moves. It's like their approach is to erase/replace things rather than improve on them. I enjoy myself some level-up moves for the sake of the main game adventure, which is why I hate when they got rid of moves like Bubble or Flame Burst or Signal Beam. Bubble is overall better than Water Gun-hits multiple targets with a chance to reduce speed. Flame Burst was that in-betweener for Ember and Flamethrower. Signal Beam was a decent coverage move and sometimes was the precursor to learning Bug Buzz.
And another problem that has happened is that because a bunch of string moves have been turned into TMs, they erased some of those moves from a Pokémon's natural moveset. I've learned this while playing PokéRogue when I used Vikavolt and was wondering why I couldn't relearn Air Slash like in gen 7 and that's because they got rid of it since it's a TM move in gen 9. Similar thing happened with Braviary and Brave Bird of all moves. And I still haven't forgiven gen 8 nixing Blaziken's ability to relearn High Jump Kick. I don't care if Close Combat is technically better, it's convenient when you don't have the resource. Also, Blaziken is very known for KICKING. HELLO?!?!
Temper flare is actually decent in singles, but its more of a distribution thing than anything: if mons like great tusk, gyarados, and salamence got better physical fire moves they would use those instead
Same goes for alluring voice: skeledirge, latias, manaphy, and eeveelutions not named sylveon dont get any better fairy moves, so this is their best option
It's almost like you didn't even watch the video
@@jmcbango "eeveelutions not named sylveon"
Espeon can learn Dazzling Gleam.
@@dse763 why would you run dazzling gleam over alluring voice, though? They're the same power and one goes through substitute and has an extra effect
Can’t believe you forgot how powerful nasty plot pluse and minuns alluring voice is with fairy tera and life orb
it's not even that powerful ??? Like, really, 85 and 75 special attack are really underwelming to be a treat even with life orb
@@s1rumbrens.u133120 bp from tera, 170 spatk from plusle, it’s not bad just weird and kinda weak
@@s1rumbrens.u133 it's a randbats heavy hitter
Honestly all upper hand needs to be good is a higher priority than fake out and the ability to work on prankster status moves. That’d be enough for it to see some decent use.
I don't think Temper flare should be in this list, because there are plenty of non-Fire Pokémon that learn it (Gyarados, Salamence, Granbull, Revavroom...) and they really enjoy having Fire coverage
Temper Flare is at least good for Pokemon who don't have a better Fire move, like Gyarados.
Personally, Hard Press should take the percentage remaining HP and multiply it by 1.3 to get it's base power. Could also add a flinch effect if you want.
with gyarados, temper flare is the only physical fire move it get's
As a singles player, it really stung to read the text "It's honestly a stretch to say that Great Tusk is even meta relevant anymore." Great Tusk is EXTREMELY meta relevant in Smogon.
Similar to the point about having little reason to add more 40 base power early game moves at this point, Temper Flare has some merit from a game progression standpoint. Like with a pokemon such as Flareon, there’s little in-between from Flame Wheel to Flare Blitz for it, since it can’t learn Fire Punch. Temper Flare potentially helps with that, though not at the moment since it’s a post-game TM.
Also Temper Flare giving Gyarados a Fire physical move is really funny.
Alluring Voice has niche use with Throat Spray on Primarina, and as a cool coverage option for the Eevees, but it is very niche and Moonblast is usually generally superior
Oh hi T.C. Didn't think I'd find you here
In singles, alluring voice is just a better version of dazzling gleam. Same base Power and PP, but has a secondary effect and is sound based, which means it hits through substitute
Nah raging fury sees almost as much play as flare blitz on gouging fire in singles
Really wish they made Steel Roller work like Ice Spinner.
They both vary in BP. Being able to fire off a 130 BP move with no drawbacks would be broken
@MaahirMomtaz12 well I mean make it 80 base power like Ice Spinner so it could be more usable
@@AutumnOwlex Or even better, make it 85 BP and give it an additional 50% buff when a terrain is active.
alluring voice is fairly decent in singles where its basically an upgrade to dazzling gleam that can hit through substitute and moonblast is limited in distrobution, but dazzling gleam is just so much better in doubles (or pixelate hyper voice for sylveon)
It also lets Dirge have a great Fairy STAB with Tera to further screw over set-up mons.
you forgot trailblaze.
I was excited for this move when I first saw it.
it is a grass type version of flame charge with much widder distribution.
the problem is that gamefreak mostly focused on quantity over quality.
most pokemon with this move tend to fell to one of these categories:
-they are so slow that speed boosts are worthless(clodsire.ursaluna)
-they are so fast that they rarely if ever need to set up (zamazenta, ribombee)
-they are glass-canons and can't survive more than one attack (meowscarada, greninja)
-they just have better options (volcarona has quiver dance, rilaboom has priority).
also there is the extreeme case of serperior where it would become slower if it used it.
there are rarely any instances where this move sees play.
idk much about vgc but in smogon singles trailblaze is a very common move on sd or bulk up users
Heracross
@@Aidsrian how many pokemon can you think that "commonly" use it?
seriously how many?
the only pokemon I can think is ogerpon-water, and it does not use it all that often.
@@videakias3000Iron Leaves, all the Paldean Tauros, Scyther / Scizor / Kleavor, Heracross, all the Ogerpon, Medicham, Mamoswine, Ursaluna, Zarude, Entei, etc. all at least use the move sometimes. Basically if you're a physical wallbreaker and you need a bit of Speed and/or a Grass move
@@videakias3000 basically any tier where a bulky water is common setup sweepers use it
Supercell slam in singles is actually really interesting purely because some of the distribution, specifically on some ground types like great tusk or ursaluna, who tend to lose out to mons like corviknight normally. As stab its not great but its a nasty option for some mons
Normal power creep is up but the overall power level is down. We no longer have Z-moves, Dynamax, Xerneas/Yveltal, Primal forms, Ultra Beasts and these were all the strongest pokemon previously. Standard mons are stronger but the power ceiling is lower.
Except for Calyrex-Shadow
“Oh my god shadow rider so strongggg” man shut up
It wasn’t even top 8 at latest regional
@@GravityIsFalling it was the most used restricted in day 2
and Zacian (even when nerfed), and Urshifu, and Chien-Pao, and Chi-Yu, and Flutter Mane
man, Supercell Slam should have the High Jump Kick base dmg or more with that draw back
From a VGC and Smogon perspective, these all make sense, however from a BSS perspective (which I play), Upper Hand is a move to look out for. I think BSS is the format we tend to see the most amount of gimmick sets, and I have failed to consider Upper Hand being an option on many pokemons and got bamboozled several times at the hands of Terrakion, Samurott-Hisui and Weavile/Sneasler. I know there are many more users, but these 4 are the ones that got me so far. As niche and bad this move can seem, when it gets you, it's often game changing, and I think it's perfectly fine as it is to be honest.
Over than that I also expected Silk Trap to be in this video. It's probably the worst Protect-like move (which is weird because gen9 gave us both this and Burning Bulwark at the same time) and it was given to a really bad pokemon too.
Silk Trap’s effect is fine. I would have preferred it to be -2 speed personally, but even at -1, one could make the case it beats out Obstruct from gen 8 because of the speed control. Also technically, Bulwark was not at the same time since it was a year later in the second DLC.
If Silk Trap were on a good pokemon, maybe it’d have some merit.
@@superzenmodeman yeah that's the main problem, having it be -1 speed on a pokemon that has 35 speed BST makes it unusable as anything hitting you will most likely still outspeed you afterwards. However I'd say Obstruct is better coz it makes the opponent super vulnerable if they try to hit you, unlike Silk Trap which just slows you down. Being slower can mean certain death for some frail pokemon, having -2 in defence means certain death for pretty much anything.
@@mamelouk Yeah it could go either way, depending on if the right mon gets one of those moves and the gameplan of the team.
That definition is not what power creep is. It’s just the addition of more pokémon of the same power which increases the pool of “strong” pokémon so fewer and fewer count as strong the more are added. The new pokémon aren’t stronger.
I disagree. The Pokémon are getting stronger. We've literally never had anything like Urshifu, Flutter Mane, Calyrex, or Miraidon before.
Physical electric's are just forever screwed, unless they get a really good signature move, the pickings for physical electric moves will constantly be dire, as your options are the barely passable Thunder Punch, the bad Wild Charge or the risky Supercell Slam
also want to add that if a physical electric is something like luxray (i.e. has no arms), its even worse as then your stuck with only wild charge or supercell slam to use (Boltund however is able to avoid using those moves thanks to strong jaw, meaning it can utilize a boosted Thunder Fang for STAB)
Definitely agreed on. Especially Alluring voice. It’s just for Pokémon that don’t get dazzling gleam, like Milotic maybe. Finally a good fairy coverage. Might also just be an upgrade to disarming voice
Dazzling gleam has no secondary effect and is also base 80 power, meaning, if i'm not mistaken, that alluring voice is better in every circumstance.
Dazzling Gleam hits both opponents
This is one good thing about the move upper hand: we can finally play rock paper scissors using a Hitmonchan with upper hand, focus punch, and mach punch
Temper Flare is good on Flareon.
In fact, it's the best fire move Flareon has atm because of Flareon's low HP.
Flareon (and really all the Eeveelutions) really could use their LGPE move tutor moves.
Alluring voice is a pretty good move-in singles, simply for the utility of it being a sound-based move, and therefore bypassing substitute
Ik this is mainly coming from a competitive standpoint but Temper Flare and Supercell Slam are fantastic in the basegame to make physical fire and electric types who don't get the elemental punches actually usable
A cool interaction I learned is upper hand -> your tera normal teammate w/ weakness policy + inner focus + extreme speed (ex. Dragonite, Entei)
The battle system doesn't do much in favor of those moves either.
Simply put, battles in Pokémon are about having all opposing Pokémon's HP reduced to 0. To do so, one would naturally prioritize damaging moves over non-damaging ones. And considering the opponent wants to do the same to one's team, it turns the scene into a race competition.
The primary resource players have to handle are the turns. They represent the times Trainers get to do something ; note players don't have control over spatial maneuver in battles so we can't attack from a distance, from behind an obstacle or involve any form of field strategy outside of the condition it's in (entry hazards, elemental fields, etc). Basically, in the games, Pokémon are sitting ducks taking order each turn to do something. The one thing one would NOT want to do, unless voluntarily, is to do absolutely nothing during a turn.
The way damage works, a battle can be done within an equal amount of turns than the opponent's number of Pokémon ; it's really fast. There's not much merit into stalling out a victory outside of strategic purpose (stall) and annoying the opponent. Knowing this, which type of moves a common player would be expected to use ? Simple, low risk high reward ones. This is the reason why moves like Earthquake are so common over situational ones like Dream Eater : you want to deal damage, high and accurate with nothing in the way of that. Simple ! Any move that fails to meet such a requirement is already second-guess tier with all the other struggling moves out there. (Using Flamethrower over Fire Blast dilemma)
Now, about the moves suggested in the video, they already fail the fundamental aspect. There is no reason to pick a move susceptible to both waste a move slot and your turns in battle. At their best, these moves don't provide much of a benefit and at their worst, they either deal low damage, waste you a turn, makes you predictable or even makes you lose a Pokémon. In other words, some of them are low reward high risk options : you don't want that !
Moves should normally be designed around the battle system. For example:
- Hyper beam like moves could keep their high base power but your next move would deal halved damage.
- Older moves could be reworked rather than adding new ones (Fury swipes-like moves hit like Population bomb and Triple Axel instead of rolling a number of times)
Upper hand is great in doubles because of incineroar- you know without a shadow of a doubt that ahole is going for fake out every time it switches in. It also has strategies like unburden hitmonlee with endure+reversal, which baits in priority moves.
it makes sense because if you make another move as consistent as ice beam or thunderbolt with en extra effort then the new move just replaces the old one, yet these moves depend alot on there extra efforts to matter but they are just not consistent enough to take when your move slots are a key limit
People just don’t understand the balance behind those abilities. Most of the really strong abilities are either on legendaries, mega evolutions, or pokemon balanced around them.
I still can't believe that GF didn't make an Electric priority move until now, then made it the signature move of Raging Bolt. Like they seriously gave GRASS, historically the most common type in VGC, a priority move before Electric got one. The type known for having Pokemon with high speed stats because there's a reason "lightning quick" is a saying to begin with.
Gale Wings Talonflame with Tailwind and Upper Hand goes so hard though
Idk why hard press isn't like dragon energy, eruption or water sprout but instead of your health, the rivals.
The difference of why wouldn't you end spamming it like the rest is because most pokemons are pretty slow + the move is single target.
Supercell Slam might finally see its day when Victini (and its signature ability) is re-released into the singles meta. Usually, to run supercell slam and not have to deal with the inconsistency, you need to run something like a wide lens, and giving up your item slot for it is just a really bad deal.
With Victini, it doesnt even need to be in battle, it only needs to be on your team and you have a decently strong physical accurate electric move with no downsides - unless Victini itself gets it, in which case Bolt Strike is immediately the better option.
We needed Victini lol. A 95% move boosted by Victory Star would make it over 100%
im not too familiar with singles meta, but a big downside is that you still take recoil hitting into protect or a ground type. id take the lower bp wild charge over the mind games anytime.
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
The only new move i use out of this list is Alluring Voice i have it on my Skeledirge for a great moveset:
1.)Torch Song, which increases Sp.Attack
2.)Scorching Sand, which has a chance to burn the target
3.)Alluring Voice, he explained the effects
4.) Hex, does double damage if the target gets burned or confused
Stomping Tantrum would be totally usable even if there was a Flare Blitz equivalent, at least by Ting Lu. Because of its interaction with Fissure, you get a turn with a 30% chance of a KO, followed by a 150 BP move.
A lot of these moves are actually useful in singles, particularly Alluring Voice. There are a lot of psychic types that were not given Dazzling Gleam. Do not ask me why seemingly at random a bunch of psychic types were given Dazzling and the others given Alluring voice, but that's just how they did it.
Shout out to steel beam. You thought supercell slam's 50% recoil when it misses was bad? How about 50% recoil when it hits!
Your opponent switched into a bulky water type and only took 10%? Too bad, take 50%, use it one more time and you faint.
(Misty) explosion should also reset field conditions tbh
I was really excited for supercell slam at first I thought it would be electric type close combat
Once again another year of waiting for a good physical electric move
Or at least an Electric HJK
temper flare is actually a good move on great tusk since it can hit air ballon gholdengo in singles
And eq into double bp vs corv
@@owenblount7334 yeah that too!
Similarly Supercell Slam lets tusk threaten Corviknight and ohko pelipper
Schrödinger's Tusk: before its first turn, Great Tusk could be running any move.
@@asierx7047 yes but if they’re insane and switch into an immunity or you fucking miss there goes half your great tusk
I guess it is fair that there is an expectation to make moves better and more powerful. I hope the same logic applies to defensive abilities and moves to counter these monstrous attacks.
nah, Alluring Voice has the same effectas Burning Jealousy, but with max mons getting stat raises more often, it wasn't that bad
If UpperHand also worked against Prankster and fake out that could be a fun gimick. Though most of the Pokemon that can learn Upper Hand also happen to be fighting types . While most Prankster Pokemon resist fighting moves and can retaliate with STAB moves if you guess incorrectly. Seems like a fun high risk high reward strategy for a future gen.
in singles or even a playthrough context, I would take supercell slam over wild charge any day of the week. still would’ve been nice if it were an electric typed high jump kick instead of jump kick
If they ever make another Mystery Dungeon game, Dragon Cheer is gonna be a scary move to deal with in Monster Houses if ya dont shut everything down immediately.
They should add low bp moves for early levels. Ghost types only get astonish or lick for early level moves. Both 30 bp and physical. Would be so easy to add something like soul sling as a simple 40 power special move or maybe make it 55 or 60 so it can work with technician and be stronger then shadow ball.
Some others that’d be good for:
Physical psychic 40 bp “magic hand”
Physical fire 40 bp “sizzle”
Physical water 40 bp “swim slam”
feel like there needs to be more basic (no secondary effect) moves with 100% accuracy and good power (like 90 base power) for: physical rock, special rock, physical electric, physical fairy, special, physical fire, etc..
Also special flying! Currently you have to choose between air slash which is weak and inaccurate or hurricane which is flying type thunder
Special Fighting
Misty Explosion should set up Misty Terrain.
SC slam should have been 130 bp
I would like to point out that Alluring Voice is one of those moves that gets better or worse dpending on the format. I agree that in VGC it is just worse dazzling gleam but in singles it is objectively better dazzling gleam. The secondary effect is pretty niche but with dazzling gleam not having a secondary affect in singles and alluring voice being able to bypass substitute it is actually the optimal choice on pokemon who can learn dazzling gleam but don't get a better move, like moonblast, as fairy type coverage.
Not sure how widespread Substitute is in VGC, but with Alluring Voice being a sound-based move, it bypasses Sub completely
The thumbnail game is good😂
...Why IS Misty Explosion's base power so low, though? Its power should be 200 but go up to 250 in Misty Terrain to make it more like the moves it's trying to imitate! D:
Also, why do the game designers have a grudge against physical Fairy and Electric types? The Fairies can't survive on just Play Rough forever, and Volt Tackle being exclusive to Pikachu's line is just criminal.
Finally, why is Hard Press not an outright clone of Eruption and Water Spout, with power capping out at 150? Why is Supercell Slam not a clone of High Jump Kick? And how is Pokémon even still a franchise? -_-;
Ok but Supercell Slam is actually quite good in singles, mainly as you can take risks with accuracy, and not be as punished as hard, and protect isn't as common.
Upperhand can get a higher base power.
But upperhand needs to fail, cause if it doesnt it could potentially be OP. Imagine a scenario where your pokemon would most likely faint, then you upperhand your teammate and it activates weakness policy or weak armor or something with +3 priotity.
... and Your teammate wont flinch because it didnt use priority.
Also almost all pokemon can make use of it because of terrastalisation.
Luckily this tech is limited to just comfey at the moment
Temper flare is at its best when its providing coverage. Sadly only a few non fire types like granbull gyarados and great tusk learn it
I love pokerogue because it gives some of these useless moves to pokemon who actually benefit from them as egg moves (supercell slam is usually put on pokemon that are weak to water and get reckless and alluring voice is put on skelledirge who can unlock punk rock)
Alluring Voice is always better than Dazzling Gleam in singles, especially since it bypasses substitute as well. And since they're the same power, Alluring Voice is pretty much always the better option.
What really annoys me about upper hand is its +3 priority. This means half of the time it won't be ablo to stop the only priority attack worth stopping: Fake out. If it were +4, it would still have a nieche as a way to protect a partner from fake out, but it can't even do that...
Temper Flare is a nice option for Great Tusk
Alluring voice is better than Dazzling gleam in singles
GameFreak Logic:
Make Volt Tackle a TM:👎
Make an Electric Type move worse than Wild Charge:
👍
So I actually added Raging Fury to a FireRed hack that I'm making... and in hindsight I'm not sure why I added it in the first place. I already gave Arcanine a Fire-type Extreme Speed so I have no clue why it needs that as well.
Alluring voice can surpass substitute
I wouldn’t mind if legacy weak moves were updated from time to time like it happened with Leech Life. For example, they could have updated moves like Karate Chop, Mud Bomb, Signal Beam, Sky Uppercut, etc so that they’re no longer just straight up worse versions of existing attacks that nobody uses in-game or competitively.
Also you will not diss Supercell Slam when it’s the best thing that’s happened to Physical Electric mons since Gen 4.
Also kudos to GameFreak for having the audacity of eliminating generic moves like Return, Hidden Power, Pursuit and nerfing the distribution of Knock off, Scald and Toxic. I wish they did the same to Sucker Punch and Stealth Rock. So predictable.
Just a question. Why would dazzling glim with no sec effect be better than alluring voice which has same base power and a sec effect ??
Gleam is spread
OK I'll make an argument about some of them
Supercell Slam answered the issue a lot of electrics had... Too much recoil for their low base HP. It's interesting in singles... But yeah its bad.
Alluring Voice gives weird Fairy move access on mons that didn't have it. Effectively Lapras. Kinda bad but its there
Upper hand was the idea of them trying to counter Incineroar... Judging by Incineroar's in EVERY VGC since its introduction 30+% use rate... I think good. But yeah needs ...work.
The rest I agree with 100%
Why is gf so scared to make a good physical electric move? Come on it won't break the game, and even if it would they already make shit like rage fist and fishious rend
Player used Supercell Slam!
That was a 10× value move!
Supercell lost $69,000,420 as Player and Co. got 80 total champion cards!
I feel the main issue with supercell slam is that there is simply no physical electric move that has a good availability AND bp over 60... *60.*
Literally why is it that special moves can just have high bp without drawbacks? Special attackers get far too much without even having the counterplay of something like burn as an option and we all just act like that's ok? Seriously special attackers are overly powerful compared to physical ones which have so much counterplay that it's genuinely impossible to say that special attackers are worse in any real way
Choice raging fury could see play in singles given the right conditions. And alluring voice has potential if it's ever on a serene grace av control type of mon.
It all depends on whether the moves are allowed in further generations and whether they are on the right mons😅
I have no idea what they were thinking when they made Hard Press. Wring Out/Crush Grip aren't good moves. What made them think a Steel type version would've been better to the point of not sucking?
Who knows
4:42 the clash royale move
Upper hand being +3 make it not as reliable for protecting your partner from fake out, you need to be faster than the fake out user and a lot of mons with upper hand are slow fighting mons, the few fast ones are super fragile.
Man, Blueberry Acadamy really needs a better move development team 😅
One move that i just find bad is order up.. for starters you need 2 spesific mons in a double battle otherwise the move fails.. it also does not help that dondozo also has +2 in all stats (excluding evasion and hit rate) so order up feels underwelming.. also doesnt help that dondozo doesnt get a way to protect its stats
Im so mad krookodile doesnt get temper flare
Fits thematically and wpild be a better coverage option then fire fang