What You Need To Know About Pedal Clones
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- Опубліковано 25 вер 2022
- This weeks Monday Monolog is all about cloning. How can companies make what seems to be exact copies of other popular pedals?
www.thejhsshow.com/
www.jhspedals.info/
JHS Fresh Clips: / @jhsfreshclips7880
#jhs #thejhsshow #clones #guitrapedal #princeoftone #dukeoftone #kingoftone #analogman #tradedress
Just a reminder that any comments asking you to message us on telegram are spam, not us!
thank you, I've gotten one...
Thanks Josh. I get those spam emails about UA-cam comments all the time. Very annoying to say the least.
FYI-Just bought the JHS Tidewater and it is excellent. Thanks for making quality pedals.
Take care
New factors to making pedals. Paton is out. I think it’s likability, sound to your preferences, popularity, and buzz factor on the internet. Or being a nomad and playing cheap pedals and sounding great. It’s not wrong, just a fun thing to watch, and a fun time to be in the game. Love deep pedal talks too, didn’t have this in the musicians friend mag of 96 and buying my first slam punk. Great time, and great job.
telespam
So I didn’t win a prize 😭😅
Cussin’ spammers 🙄
Thx for the videos !!
I'm mortified at the thought that changing your mind is a sign of weakness. That's a sign of a broken society in my mind. Changing your mind is the most fantastic thing you can do. It means you learned something, and no matter where we are in life, we're never done learning.
I think social media is largely to blame. It's built on a cynical feedback loop that engages the brain with a million little dopamine hits, and the most fool-proof way to get people engaged and to drive ad revenue up is inflammatory and argumentative content. It further entrenches us in our "camps" and is rarely productive.
You must have been living under a rock the past few years, society has been broken. 😂
Changing your mind is a sign of weakness. Unless you are changing your mind to agree with me. Anyone reading this, please make sure you understand: I am not being literal.
This isn't exactly new, although it's gotten worse and worse and I think a big part of why it has gotten so bad is tribalism in everything. Not to mention the proliferation of social media bots on certain platforms that make posts or comments with no backing to their claims, but just spread the same unfounded conspiracies for lack of a better term That makes people not want to engage because they have engaged with people before who plug their ears and refuse to have a conversation and they're tired of it. But how many of those conversations were with real people and not paid bots or troll farms or pic? Any number of other term.
@@GregStraub42 a fine point. I've managed to cull my social media to the point where I don't encounter any of that anymore. I'm a lot happier ever since. Those people, or operatives, are very exhausting.
"Doubling down" is the worst thing you can do as a gambler and the worst thing you can do as a thinker.
Im a musician from Mexico, you gotta know that here the minimum wage is $8usd per day, not per hour. I get by, but devoting money for gear is always complicated. Some time ago I was in the look for pedals cause my ten year old multi-fx Boss GT10 was not making the cut for things I was recording. Back then I was hell broke and by grace of the algorythm I found the famous JHS Behringer video and man... in all honesty it was life changing. I bought the Super Fuzz and the TS style pedal and they sounded just amazing!! I recorded the hell out of them but most importantly they were my gateway into pedals. I went into the chinese rabbit hole, buying all the Mooers, NUX s, Rowins etc I could afford, and most of the times I found very good sounds out of them, theres no other way to learn about tone but by trying stuff. Nowadays Im not as broke and I've been able to upgrade a little bit, I've bought some tc electronics and imagine my joy when I bought my first legit Boss Blues Driver and my original ProCo Rat! Right now I'm literally saving money to get my first JHS pedal, I crave for the Lucky Cat and for the 3 series Fuzz. Not only I got into buying pedals from that video but also into pedal culture and history cause that Behringer video was the first JHS vídeo I saw and I got hooked on the channel ever since... now look at me, spending my Monday mornings nerding out on this stuff... jajaja So Josh I really find no wrong doing in the stuff you do or say, your'e a smart guy and you really know your stuff so I guess, if it feels good, it is good. Keep it up!!!
that's great to hear man! as an Indonesian art teacher with less than minimum wage i also could only afford Chinese clones (mosky, caline) for now (although my first ever pedal was a TC Electronic). I'm inspired by how you could upgrade your gears, and i wish someday soon i can do too! thank you
“Discussing things as intelligent humans” without just straight up arguing has become such a rare thing nowadays. I love this channel so much because of this open discussion format.
podcasts are a gift, i dont get it why wont everybody interesting who got things to say dont jump on it
Truth - the idea that changing your mind makes you weak is fixed mindset at its finest
Same here! Josh is so modest, understanding, down-to-earth and mature - he's so willing and eager to listen to, understand and appreciate the perspectives of others!
These are my fav parts of this channel by miles. The show feels like a show, its great and entertaining as heck but these monday episodes stick with me more and have me thinking alot more about them.
Hear hear
Josh, you are truly an example of an industry leader and mentor, no matter what the industry we need more people like you.
Round of applause to B for his email, I felt the same way. Thank you Josh for this monolog. 👍
Good thing MGM didn’t make pedals
All the homies love B
Monovlog
/beerhoist
I bought the DemonFX King of Tone copy. It’s built just like the $800 one. I like it.
The Behringer thing.. I basically bought up the whole line after seeing your show on them. At no point was I ever under the mistaken impression that I was getting Boss pedals. They might share some similarities with the colors and whatnot, but everyone knows Boss makes metal tank pedals that never break. These were cheap plastic copies.
For me this was a cool way to try some older circuits that don't get made anymore without spending a fortune on them. And the fact that they replicated the pedals really well was the selling point for me. I will never own that rare octave fuzz one that they copied that goes for like 10 grand on Reverb, but now I can at least try it out and play it for myself. So, they definitely aren't taking away sales on my end. I will never own most of the real pedals they are based on.
I did the same but do not consider you endorsed them, meerley pointed out that one pedal sounded like another.
Well said. I wasn’t sure about fuzz, so I tried the Behringer & didn’t have to take the risk of having a white elephant
The types of people who want [and can afford] boutique pedals were never going to buy cheap clones in the first place.
@@InventorZahran yeah it's the difference of being a collector, and just needing a functional circuit for the tone.
These monologues have become some of my favorite parts of the internet, Josh. Thanks for taking the time to do these.
I really like what you said “we’re not reinventing the wheel, we’re making new tires to put on the wheel”
That’s an incredible way to look at it because it very clearly puts everything in its place.
I really respect Josh for telling that story about the Fuzz Factory
This has been one of the most thoughtful, thought-provoking talks I've heard in a long time. Thank you Josh for putting this forth for us, thanks to the builders for sharing their sincere thoughts and thanks B for being such an articulate and intellectually honest bloke. What an amazing time to be alive. I would've never imagined I would experience anything close to this when I started playing guitar 20 years ago here in Peru.
Couple points: 1. The JHS show, with its overall themes of curiosity, discernment, experimentation, and creativity- dare I say history and community as well- it is doing the work of informing us on how to think critically about these issues. So even if Josh says something I disagree with in a single episode, the greater context and foundation of the brand and the shows make plenty of room for constructive discussion. 2. I have build pedals for fun, started with BYOC, moved on over ten+ years to be able to breadboard and modify and keep learning, stepping up to building tube amps as well. Everything I have learned on that journey has led me to be even more sure that when I'm buying a professional pedal, I'm making informed decisions on how I support builders with my dollars. 3. Musicians, have you ever been at a nice venue at a local show and thought, "I could do that, I should be up there." And then you start a band and find yourself playing on that same stage later on, after some hard work? Well, I think that Josh's own origin story and his choice of how he formed his channel and brand is inspiring many of us to say in the pedal world, "I could do that." And its fun, and good, and drives interest and innovation. In my case, I've played on stages that I dreamed of, and I dream that one day, a 250 clone I make will reside at the bottom of a certain red-bearded man's junk drawer. It can happen. 4. Idea for future show: "Knowledge Gaps" assemble a panel and in the Q&A, ask the question, "what is something you never learned, got good at, or always outsource despite being super knowledgeable/skillful about so many other relevant things?" For me, it would be stacking drives- been playing 28 years, basically a total novice about stacking. And recording. I always had the wrong home recording gear and there was always someone better at recording that me in my band/friend groups.
These are the TED talks of the pedal industry. I've not only enjoyed these immensely but I have taken these concepts and thinking and applied to my own field. Literally the adjacent possible :). Well done Josh, I love this series.
“I’m asking if he thinks we’re in for a hard winter… he doesn’t seem to know.”
Josh, I got into building pedals because I can't afford to own higher end pedals and didn't want to buy cheap ones.
There are large communities of people tracing circuits and building accurate clones. For example, Effects Layouts and PedalPCB are fantastic and a very welcoming community.
"Changing your mind is a sign of intelligence"- thanks man that's apt and so important for refining and being a better person each new day. Important topic
Loving these chats. Please keep doing them. I really appreciate your knowledge, passion, and point of view.
@41:49 "We should be able to discuss these in an intelligent way" describes every problem we face.
I throughly enjoyed this video and discussion. It was so refreshing to listen to someone calmly and intelligently address the questions and concerns. Thank you!
This is simply one of the most INTERESTING and EDUCATIONAL videos on this channel. I was gripped the entire time. Please more content like this! My favorite content on this channel is the HISTORY and EDUCATIONAL material. I love the other stuff too. Keep it coming! Thanks for doing this video.
Demon fx King of Drive is an awesome pedal thankyou - yes I am in the 5th category "people that want to save money" when speculating in pedal purchases
Really love this type of content and discussions. Love to hear your take on the world of pedals
Thank you for this video. I appreciate the mature way it was done, the intentions of the video, and the education included in it. Very worth the time!
Josh Scott: Pedal Builder, Epic Slide Player, Philosopher.
Better philosopher than Rhett Schull, amirite?
I’ve been a mediocre guitarist for a long long time and from the first couple of years I really used to think I knew my onions when it came to gear. I was totally wrong, about 5 or six years ago I started to get back into general gear geekyness and with the modern resources the internet provides and I realised that all i really knew was what late nineties magazines told me.
For example I used to think that only a tube screamer was a tube screamer and anything claiming to be ‘like’ a tube screamer was a cheap knock off with different parts and a circuit that couldn’t possibly be the real screamer circuit because that must have been patented. Finding out the truth of the situation blew me away and really cured me of my gear snobbery.
Before I go on I gotta say I have a really tight budget when it comes to gear which is definitely going to colour what I’m about to say if I could splash more cash around maybe I’d have landed some where different.
When I shop for gear now I’m buying the circuit not the trade dress. I look at a gear product like a pedal no different than a DVD player, it’s a device that does a job, I don’t really care if my DVD player is branded Sony or Panasonic as long as it plays dvds. I also don’t care if my mid humped light overdrive says Ibanez or EHX as long as it does it’s job.
So has the amazing job Josh and other content creators done educating me hurt builders? I mean the trade dress of a tube screamer tells the consumer this is the real and currently official example of the circuit, but now I know the big difference in many cases is the Enclosure and graphics so I’m more than happy to pay half for the EHX version.
Here’s what I’m asking, if the circuits can be copied then is trade dressing just protecting brand loyalty by making the consumer think they are buying a product unique to that brand, when in fact every DVD player plays dvds?
Josh! I always knew we’d get along. But now I know we’d be BFF’s, because I love Fantastic Mr. Fox too! Awesome mug.
Loving these monologues from Josh. Vibes from the early channel and really interesting history.
You are now a mentor in this industry Josh and I love seeing you starting to embrace it.
I've had a Behringer clone of a Boss compressor on my board for about 15 years now. I honestly didn't think it would last 6 months. I once did a head to head test, between it and my friend's Boss version. Pretty much spot on, but there is a barely noticeable bit of noise in the Behringer.
Great monolog today Scott! 👏 very thought provoking.
Thanks Josh! Loved the discussion and I learned so much.
This episode just summarized all the fight inside my head this last few weeks. I’m from Brazil and always dreamed on having the AT-DS + pedal. It’s like THE distortion pedal for what i like to play. But unfortunately, there’s no JHS reselling in Brazil at reasonable prices. So every pedal comes at 3 times the actual price because we have to import it and go through all the taxes and etc. suddenly I encounter the demonFx alternative. Saw some reviews, a great sound came from it, not like the original, but pretty good. It was like 70% of a dream turning into reality for 1/10 the price here in Brazil. But deep inside something was bugging me. Maybe I love this pedal because I truly respect josh and the pedal maker community. And I realized that this clone wouldn’t be respectful to them. Principally because it’s the SAME thing from the outside. Literally. Same color, nob placement, only the letter they change 😂. Well, now I just can wish someday someone will bring this pedals at reasonable prices to Brazil. Or maybe I will be able to go to the us and buy one myself. That’s my story. It’s not about the sound, it’s about the respect you have on the hard work that the people u admire put on their creations. (Obviously I’m only talking about this washed out clones)
@@stoneysdead689 I’m speaking for myself, u can do whatever u want bro, and that’s fine, I don’t judge u
@igor use a reshipper service
Thats cool man, but ultimately, whats your budget? thats the question. I'd love an OG 69 plexi but realistically I'll never own one, not cause i'll never afford it, but i dont want to pay 30k for an amp i can get a clone of for 1k. dont feel bad man.
@@rmmst49 they certainly can help when availability is the issue, but I've found the shipping costs can be pretty steep. Plus they're are plenty of countries where a day's work won't earn you what an hour earns in others. US made means a US price tag. Igor, I feel your pain brother.
Thank you for this video. I learned so much from the perspective of a pedal builder. I had no idea that circuits are so derivative and that builders aren’t bothered by that. That is super insightful and since I have no interest in learning pcb work- I would have never discovered that otherwise. I think your distinctions between pcb cloning and trade dressing made a lot of sense and I really learned a lot from that. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.
I already loved this channel but these Monday talks are taking it to another level. Thanks so much for your thoughtful approach and intelligent discussion.
Interesting, and I love this series. Very thought-provoking. Thank you for this.
When I was a kid the bike to have was a Schwinn. My parents got me a Huffy. It was a good bike but it wasn’t a Schwinn. My dad was a machinist and he couldn’t see the practical reason to pay over 2x for bike. He grew in the depression so the fact that I was getting a new bike for Christmas was much better than he experienced. I learned a lesson about trade dress (it looked a lot like a Schwinn but not enough to make me a cool kid) and not getting exactly what you want all the time. I’m not sure what this has to do with pedals :)
Bikes have pedals. That's where you're getting confused...🙂
I had a Huffy as well when I was a kid. Now I ride a 1968 Schwinn Lemon Peeler. It’s better than the Huffy. 😁
This describes the situation oh too well ... the big elephant in the room is the fact that most people are more interested in how they appear to others, self-image. "How do I *LOOK* using this thing?"
I had a Schwinn Typhoon when I was a kid. Totally indestructible and not for lack of effort on my part to do so. Our garage was littered with the remnants of other bikes (including Huffy) that could not withstand that level of abuse. My dad was a machinist who grew up in the Depression, too... who got tired of spending his money buying me another bike every so often. This is probably why I play Gibson guitars. :)
@@HazeAnderson That's iphone as well.
New JHS mini-series: “Lawsuit Stories!😅
Hahaha 🤣
Great commentary on culture toward the end. Changing your mind and being able to reevaluate your previous stances is one of the most powerful things we can do on our own.
Super valuable video for me, it clarified a lot of questions I’ve had about pedal design etiquette
As an artist, I am fascinated by this discussion. I’ve been accused (in an uninformed and admittedly knee-jerk manner) of copyright violations on a couple of pieces of art. There was no real basis for the accusation and it was resolved quickly by a polite and technically thorough email exchange explaining how I created said images, discussion of the artistic/genre history and a visual comparison. But I’d never experienced that kind of “WTF” moment creatively or legally. Keep this kind of content coming! Love the JHS Show!
Because of that episode I bought a bunch of behringer pedals. I almost immediately sold them to replace them with the original boss pedal if i liked it. I never would have tried most of them for $110 but for $30 I figured it was worth a shot.
why...not clones
Ive got a couple Behringer pedals for that exact reason. Wanted to try, but wasnt sure.if it was.worth spending the money
Great approach.
Josh thank you for taking your time to explain all of this information, !
These are great and fascinating, more Monday monologues, please
Unknown pedal builder #3 touched on a topic that interested me, and generated this question; When does paying homage to a pedal (i.e. same color, font, knob layout) cross the line and become trade dress violation? Show me a RAT pedal clone that's not black in color (for example)
You've got great morals and business ethics. That comes from the heart and I can see it. You're doing fantastic work, left, right and center.
Been loving these more information intensive videos. Thank you!
Thanks for helping us think clearly.
I’m a pedal builder as my sole trade, these Monday monologues are like “The Pedal News.” I watch the news while building pedals, thanks Josh.
I’ve seen your pedals on eBay and or Reverb. 👍😎
Looks at my pedal board, sees only copies no pedals over $30. Danoelectro, Behringer, Joyo, Donner, mosky (Klon Clone).
I guess my POV is unless it's made out of rare earth materials germanium or gold it's not worth much more than $20 when you look inside these boxes and see nothing special inside.
Always love listening to you talk, Josh. Another great video thank you for making awesome content.
Simply put, I learned something today. Thanks
This is all super interesting, and well balanced. It's like a lesson in how to discuss... Anything. It's calm and respectful. Guitar industry is a great case study in all this stuff. Guitar body shapes. Lawsuits. Who wins, who loses. It's funny how it's gone and how it continues to go. Reminds me of the music copyright cases too. At what point can you protect a circuit or a chord progression legally? I'm not totally ignorant of amp and pedal circuit design, but the impression I get, is that if I were on understand them better and have greater knowledge of them, I'd see that there are really very few core elements, that just get reused, tweaked and evolved.
I own the Behringer EQ pedal and I got it because I didn't quite have the budget at the time for the Boss GE-7. It worked good enough, and served me well over many gigs and rehearsals. I did eventually get the BOSS GE-7 once I had the money available, so I swapped it out. The boss is obviously superior in quality, but the Behringer just worked, and did its job perfectly. I still have it and pull it out from-time-to-time when I'm trying out different things outside of my main pedalboard.
You are such a breath of fresh air, Josh! Keep the good stuff coming 👌🏻🎸🖖🏻
Videos like this are why I enjoy this channel. Beyond the fun and games there's a genuine love, and respect, for the subject matter and for the people who also love the same stuff. It's a genuine community and I enjoy being a small part of it.
I just received my King Of Tone pedal after waiting almost three years. Like many of my pedals, I didn't purchase it primarily based on its tone or circuit. I purchased it out of respect for the time and effort that was put into creating a pedal that was unique in the mind of the designer. A design that found favor in the guitar community.
And that is a prime example of respecting pedals as a type of art form. If you want the tone and want to save money, buy a clone... If you love the original and have the means to respect the artist, do that then lol
My daughter (16) has a friend that's really into guitar, actually studying music at college. She wanted to get into pedals, and they asked my advice. I told her, get a zoom multi-fx, or get a bunch of 'Behringer' pedals, see which you like, and swap them out for Boss pedals.
Thank you for sharing your thought!
Thank You Josh! Many blessings!
Good one. B has legit info on all this.
I felt over the behringer video the same way.
But here's this. Most people that buy those rarely leave their bedroom anyway.
Heres a short story. I'd neve buy one. I knew a dude starting out, constantly had issues setting up, dead signal all kinds of issues. He was trying to gig with them and and practice.
Over time he has upgraded now he is making money gigging.
But started with what he could afford.
Has a wife and kids one of them high needs.
Simply couldn't afford it when he started out. But I feel if someone likes a sound eventualy they are going to hear the difference and upgrade because they are decent throwaways but not gig quality and imo to my ear are not the same as a higher quality copy in a housing that's not a copy made with better parts.
That simple.
Show me a gigging musician that doesn't reinvest in his gear that didn't start out with cheaper gear and a bad ear.
I'll wait.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Josh for not only sharing your hard earned knowledge on pedal history with the world; more importantly IMO though, thank you for acknowledging and promoting the need for actual intelligent well informed dialogue about contentious topics in society. This kind of work gives me hope for the future that we can rise out of this hellish nightmare of hot takes and gotchas that social media has given rise to. Cheers to you, Josh!
Ditto and great point ShopMechanic!!
Josh Scott is king of the internet. What a fab dude.
I really like how this is all about honesty and respect (for self and others). Quite refreshing. Big thanks to Josh, B, and all of those who wrote their heartfelt answers. Cheers to all!
Great Monday talk! Great email from B! I feel the same way, I can barely play and the most expensive pedal in the world would not change that. My kids are my only audience, so I inexpensive clone has been my route. I watch all your stuff to get an idea what sounds are available and go the clone route. My most expensive pedal is the Ocean 11 reverb, lol. IMO clones are a compliment to the original and pushes the industry to innovative, design and develop.
how do they push the industry to innovate? sounds a little woo woo
@@rmmst49 when you have a bunch of factories creating the same stuff, as a manufacturer you have you ask yourself "What can I do better or different? Create something people can enjoy?" If we were all content with what we have, we would still be on landlines and typewriters.
Last one for me. ... I started building clones for myself during the pandemic and have become pretty facinated by the different takes on the circuits. I find it fun to try and replicate as close as I can to an original and it gives me a goal for building. I will go as far as to buy an original and look at its guts to verify which online schematic I am using and will buy the same size enclosure and do everything except put my own designs on the case. I dont try and make my designs look like the originals and the names are normally nods to what that circuit is inste4ad of a brands name or trade dress is. I dont sell these to anyone, but imagine I wont just throw them away ever, so I might pass them onto friends if I decide I dont want to use them anymore. I dont feel there is anything wrong with doing this, but what are your takes?
One of your best videos ever imo ...
Much respect to you Josh !
"If you change your mind, it's a sign of intelligence"... Love it. I like to look at everything with objectivity.
The fact that you talk up other brand other than the usual big ones is one of the reasons I follow your videos... If it sounds good, I'm in.
Josh, thanks for sharing your thoughts and precipitating a discussion on the so called clone wars. I'd be interested in your take on DIY pedal clone kits. Besides skirting the concerns we may have with deceptive clones, it's educational, there's personal satisfaction, and it may even inspire a new design or pedal developer. So what about build-it-yourself?
I love your diplomatic approach to this subject. well done.
Yay fantastic Mr. Fox is a perfect movie. Has more character development than recent “live-action” movies.
Any player has a budget to work with for gear. I appreciate Josh exposing, in a good way, less expensive pedals affordable to those who only have a few bucks, but have the same big dreams most guitar players have. I bought some behringer pedals because i heard it from Josh and I'm totally happy. How it's developed is another issue. Eventually what matters is how it sounds and can i afford it all pedals are good👍
whatever makes you happy dude, but “every pedal is good” is woo woo woo delusional
I agree completely with “B”s rebuttal email. JHS has made many videos basically showing that you can get the same sounds out of a cheap clone (even a game show?). I am surprised that it never occurred that this could be seen as positive advertising.
Other YT channels do NOT want that even mentioned, they're paid to shill ______ brand. Kudos to Josh for his integrity.
Now you have to make an "unlucky charm" pedal that has thanks mom written on the circuit board
Fascinating talk and subject 🖖
I just bought a Behringer Ultra Trem because I have never found a trem I liked. To my ear, it's no worse than any other I've tried. I'll stick with it for now. Cheers!
I have a box of demon fx pedals that a friend sent me to film, I still haven't opened it because i haven't had time but I've been debating if i even want to do it even just to have a similar discussion about them.
You should bring the subject ... DemonFX are flooding ebay with label clearly open to confusion.
that might be interesting from a graphic design perspective, how close is too close and when does it start to deceive? can it be in tribute? where are the lines?
Open it! Show the world if they work, compare it to the “real deal” and IN YOUR OPINION say whatever is worth it or not, we’re talking about products and market capitalism is not moral at all and your opinion as a experience man is important 🔥👌🏻
No one in their right mind looks at those pedals and thinks they are the same thing. I too would be curious how well they emulate what they are trying to clone... in the same way that Josh stated that most pedal makers are trying to make their own versions. Unless it's an exact copy down to even using the company name of JHS, as an example, I simply can't buy the argument. Love the 60 Cycle Hum channel and again would encourage you to do that show since I find you to be a very honest reviewer and curious like the rest of us.
Thanks Josh, for sharing your knowledge and for making the internet a nicer place. Cheers mate.
I'm 68, remember when most vintage pedals were introduced to the market. Some were "cheesy" and disappeared, some became classics. It is regrettable that most young/new musicians will not have the opportunity to own one of these; too rare, expensive, we are not wealthy, we struggle to survive, and if we cannot innovate, share, learn, then, we will change in new ways, some will be unpredictable and seem ruthless. Others, will produce greatness.
Josh, THANK YOU and your Builders Community for trying hard to maintain the integrity of your products and still, help us see into areas we do not have access to or do not know about... if we all love music and can find a way to contribute something, somehow to those coming after us, we have added to the chain started when the first song was sung...
Sorry about the haters, but, they too need love, more than most.
Behringer offer a great service, they offer people their first step onto the pedalboard ladder. They are good enough to trust but not well enough built to want to keep long term.
I bet most people who buy them move on.
They are not trying to deceive anyone. It's like buying a cheap anything. You will replace them when you can afford to.
Pedal cloning is to pedal making like plagiarism is to songwriting. It's a legal, ethical and ideological debate and has so many layers. Glad to hear your take on it, even though it concerns more the builders and companies involved.
As for the buyers, it gets trickier, because it involves the same aspects, plus economical and geopolitical arrangements that escape their control. Where someone lives, what are their livelihoods, how much time and resources they have to dedicate themselves to playing and expanding their rigs to achieve the sound in their minds. Like many aspects of life, your willingness to go to the grey areas of morals, ethics and legality vary depending on the social and economic circumstances they find themselves in. The thing is, sometimes you'd rather get the real thing, and pay the builders that did the real thing, but just can't! Case in point, I got in line for a King of Tone, and got to my turn, but ultimately I couldn't afford it. So I bought a clone, and I'm satisfied with the sound it provides me. But in doing so, I see that I gave my money to some giant Chinese company, and I don't like it. What can the builders do for us? Maybe license these cheaper versions to companies that they trust to deliver the sound of their products with good quality building, good business practices and a competitive price for us who don't make enough money to buy the originals. Then again, what would this price be, what companies actually can be trusted to do so, and do you envision your product in such a format (if you don't, are you actually losing clientele, or did you not even consider these people as a potential market?), anyway, huge subject. As for me, I'll use my clone to make money to buy the real deal
I think that the KOT is an outlier in the overall discussion outlined by Josh and your comments here also. Whilst I agree with your sentiments regarding ethical choices often impacted upon by socio-economic circumstances, there are still a myriad of choices. One need not buy the most expensive version of a circuit, yet they can still buy from reputable builders without going down the cheap Chinese clone/copy route.
As for my thoughts that the KOT is an outlier, the way I see it is that's a builders choice to remain small in terms of staff to make the gear and not meet the demands in reasonable time. Of course people will & have looked elsewhere to fill that void. Perhaps the mxr version will address the current void in the marketplace, due to a lack of stock to meet demand.
Notwithstanding, like any other industry, branding, look etc is worth something and people are willing to pay accordingly.
However, cheap clones per se exist only to profit of another's hard R&D. Times are tough worldwide at the moment, so naturally there will be people who gravitate toward cheap clones & will continue to do so.
The reality is the pedals themselves aren't really famous, it's those that used them to make them famous is often forgotten about. Therefore, whilst so many guitarists seem obsessed with recreating the sounds of their heroes, few if any can do so exactly. They don't have the same hands and likely the rest of the gear isn't exactly the same.
Over and above that the reality is that many 'near enough' copies are perfectly fine as nobody is going to know the difference in a live band setting and likely the same when listening back to a studio mix, even through high end gear.
As for me I don't own or want a KOT, I use a Protein, that's different sure, but gives me what I'm looking for.
There's no doubt this is a golden age in the pedal world for choice, from a myriad of boutique builders through to mainstays and Chinese clones.
I am concerned about this vast choice will mean the market will eventually be forced to restructure and many of the more boutique builders will be no longer as their pedals are quickly copied and sold for significantly less. Similarly, I note that many of the cheapest clones are sold through generic large stores such as Amazon. I'd much prefer to support a smaller specialised music store, rather than a global giant, who's board make enormous sums of money, yet the staff are paid the minimum wage.
So, for me I have no cheap clones & I typically shop at music stores, including their online marketplace.
The ease of which marketing including UA-cam reaches millions is undeniable & UA-cam 'influencers' have played a considerable role in the rapid rise of cheap clones.
(Not sure where I was going with this reply 🤔, so much to be said for such a broad topic. )
Cheers. 😎👍
@@nostro1001 you're going towards a civilized discussion with the reply, that's for sure. Much like the video, any takes that makes us think further on the subject are good ones. I actually only met the KOT through my guitar teacher, who has one and lent it to me for some gigs, both covers and my own music, and it blew me away, but really that is not the usual way we hear about and experience these pedals usually. More often than not it's like you said, through our heroes, and a wish to chase those wonderful sounds that charmed us so many times. The heroes and influencers do play their part in making us want this instead of that, these instead of those, and surely play a part on molding what everyone wants, willingly or not, and it is yet another layer to this cake.
But yeah, I believe that the main question in Josh's take is the ethics of the whole thing, and really the more faceless a corporation is, the less they care about it, after all the more faceless you are, less accountable you become. You may get sued, you may even have to pay millions, but the pockets get filled and the shareholders are never really up to scrutiny from the people that bought the stuff.
God, I miss when I could afford a boutique pedal every now and then, and actually be able to talk to the guys that built it (not the builders fault, just other factors screwing my capability to do that)
Cheers, mate. Any take that moves the discussion and makes you think is welcome
@@loukabarone Haha... A civilised discussion on the internet. 🤔 ( I must be getting old). And yes, thanks for continuing...😎
Ethics are so hard to determine and we all make ethical decisions many times a day. It seems part of the issue, (in this space anyway), is that most want things now. So, the concept of saving up for something one really wants seems to be dying. Notwithstanding, 'buy now, pay later' schemes are a plenty and can assist with purchases.
We also didn't throw into the mix the rise of modellers. Today they do a solid job of recreating pedals & amps and are used professionally. Years back there were no such things or they did a lousy job. That's all changed and most likely adds further pressure in an already crowded marketplace.
Ethically, I'd like to see more UA-camrs give greater attention to smaller/local builders, rather than cheap alternatives that legitimise those products.
Sure, I get UA-camrs need to make a living and spending small sums of money that can easily be recouped via a video is fairly easy, compared to sourcing pricier gear. Reaching out often solves this issue.
By in large I think there's been a saturation re demos of 'cheap' gear that has legitimised many of the offerings, rather than questioning the product. There's just too much tit for tat going on.
It's worth noting that in the hi fi realm, most do not provide sound bites of the gear reviewed due to the compressed nature of the sound. Yet in the guitar world, it seems the norm that the audience is able to pick up slight nuances through this medium.
Oh and lastly there's the 'honesty' of reviews that Josh spoke about recently. What is especially in my mind is the post processing that most don't refer to. So many pedal sounds can be and likely are heavily manipulated to sound 'good'. That doesn't really tell me what a pedal/guitar sounds like. And I've grown to 'distrust' the larger/pro player reviewers that clearly use their pro studio to manipulate the end product.
I have no issues watching on occasions, but I no longer get influenced by their sounds. They can make just about anything sound good and most that watch are simply not in their league as players, let alone have the high end production skills are perhaps even the gear.
Cheers. 👊
Most "influencers" are paid to shill the high priced brand, not cheap clones.
Why cant I stop watching this !!! This is so interesting !!
Thanks Josh for clearly defining terms that people need to know. I love how EH created the Soulfood some years back just as my curiosity was peeking about the Klon. EH announced it as a tribute to the Klon, yet using a completely different circuit design and original look. The bypass/buffer was even more thoughtful and the latter really helps bring my board alive. I use that sound as a saturated OD, usually for humbucking pickups.
So, there’s an example of a legendary company creating an affordable and super usable product based on a coveted sound that everyone was talking about, and then actually improving upon it, in my opinion.
Hey Josh, really appreciate the video. I think something that is really important to consider when it comes to “Trade Dress” is guitars. It’s seems like in the guitar world copying trade dress is much more acceptable. There has been many guitars over the years that practically look identical to Stratocasters, Telecasters, etc. PRS has essentially copied the Strat as closely as behringer has copied Boss. I get that there was some legal stuff that took place between Fender and PRS over the design. But nonetheless I think there is a case to be made that copying trade dress is seen as more acceptable in the guitar world if you ask me. I could say more but I think you understand what I’m getting at. I’m curious as to what your thoughts are on this? I think it’s probably an important part of the conversation as it relates to guitar pedals.
The thing that made me realize I was pretty okay with blatant guitar style copies is that the people who invented most of the really famous shapes (strat, tele, les Paul, etc) are not alive anymore. In 126 years when Josh and his r &d team are gone I wouldn't feel as bad about a blatant rip off of a morning glory, but if it happened now I would think it was sleazy.
I think that the PRS shape is closer to a Gibson Les Paul Jr Doublecut than it is to a Strat
Suhr guitars are high-class clones of strats and teles as well
I don't care if PRS or Suhr or whoever do it, and lord knows they both make mad quality instruments-- my issue is, why would I want to make a higher end copy of a Strat? I love Strats to the point of NOT wanting to make them. When I see a St. Vincent or a Yamaha Flying Samurai (both of which are indebted to other guitars but are not high end clones) I'm interested. The SG or Explorer or Flying V were Gibson reactions to Fender's success. That's the innovation and evolution and variation and creativity that Josh was talking about in relation to spins on some of the original pedal fathers (fuzz tone, benders, faces, muffs, dist plus, 250s, tubescreamers, etc.) I just can't believe all the "shapes" and design styles are done. I refuse to believe it. A wheel is a wheel but an electric guitar is an electric guitar. For that matter, why not variations on acoustics or even effing violins? The electric guitar has the potential to vary wildly, why not do it?
That is a good question. And it is interesting to compare, how the two big guitar companies are dealing with this issue.
Would have loved to hear you talk about the Devi Ever v. Bun Runner situation. I know it was an artist signature pedal but the back story of how it came to be feels mysterious and forums on the issue used to get so heated. Maybe someday we can get a history of Devi Ever JHS show? Really want to know more about their history and that part of JHS's.
Don't remember which Devi Ever pedal it was but they were both based on a Sam Ash fuzz..
You can try the Mojo Hand Zephyr fuzz if you want to try the circuit
Bravo Josh. You have stuck out your neck and stuck to your principles and kept your mind open at the same time
Really thoughtful & involving.
Noted; Warmer lighting.
Better sound quality than previous Monday Monologs. (more in-keeping with the wider JHS show)
Everything about this demonstrates a strong active listener as well aa a knowledgeable topic expert. Superb!
I'm glad that the Muffuletta, Bonsai and Pack Rat were brought up. These are obviously based on existing circuits, but a lot of time and effort was put in by JHS to bring the multiple variations of those circuits into a single pedal.
By bringing those pedals to the market, JHS was going out on a limb as to whether or not they would be a success (i.e. could JHS sell enough of them at a price point where it was worth the effort).
If Behringer was to look at the sales numbers of the, say, Pack Rat and then decide to produce a clone, I would consider that to be unethical; legal, yes, but still unethical. It wouldn't matter if the trade dress was completely different. JHS would be the company that placed a bet that the product would sell, and Behringer would just be cashing in on JHS's bet.
If a company is producing a Big Muff clone today, great; Electro-Harmonix has already made a fortune of that design. You're essentially fulfilling the spirit of a patent, you're letting the company that came up with the original design a period of time to reap the rewards of that idea, without someone coming in and competing with them, by doing something like undercutting them on price.
I have one of the 68 Pedal King of Clones, it's pretty good. I bought it after being on the waitlist for several months, it'll hold a spot until my turn comes around to buy a KoT in a few years. I think I've arrived at a point where I feel like counterfeits are a problem, trade dress stuff that tries to appear to BE something else (and the 68 Pedals certainly comes right up to that line). But colors, names with a nod toward the original, and especially things like similar knob layouts seem a little difficult to name as an offense. I probably have a dozen different "legit" drive pedals with the same three knob layout, and the number of green pedals with "screamer" in the name rivals the number of mosquitos on the planet. It seems like there's a spectrum of derivation, not just in circuit but in colors (see a ton of Univibes that copy the look), layout, and names (Euphoria=Zen). And there's a point for everyone where it goes from referencing, to exploiting, to counterfeiting. It's a pretty subjective, fluid concept, or maybe it's kind of cumulative -- you can be a green three knob drive with a screamer circuit, but if you call it "East River Drive", no problem. It's a weird thing.
It's called Brand Confusion. The fact that Apple won because of rounded corners on their tablets pretty much put a nail in the coffin that similar look isn't enforceable
Josh, Great job educating us on this important issue. I think you represented the pedal industry very well and showed true leadership with the video. Bravo!
FYI, we love your approach to just about everything Josh!
I think the overall color of pedals gives me an impression on the kind of circuit it is. To me: bright green = screamer, silver = fuzz, black = rat
I know this way of thinking isn't always the case, and there's lot of variation. But I feel we all subconsciously know that different circuits get associated with colors, and makers take advantage of this to market their designs, even if they aren't an actual clone of the circuit itself.
The RAT clone I just built (for my guitar player) is black. :)
I agree, also orange=phaser, purple=flanger, teal/turquoise=chorus, tremolo, vibrato type of modulation effects. Most of those subconsious standards were set long time ago by the very successful trendsetter, influential, big time guitar effects pedal companies (boss, mxr etc)
Cloning in the guitar world is a far broader term than is useful.
Counterfeit may be a better term for the verboten lines(pedals intended to look, not just work, like something it isn't). The watch world has similar struggles. Homage vs counterfeit is how they do it. A counterfeit watch is one that says to the outside world "this is a Rolex". This is the 'shameless' style that "B" mentions, I believe. A Behringer or Chinese Amazon clones are what I'd call a generic clone.
A counterfeit is different than a generic 'clone'. A generic clone is more of an homage. It's saying 'this is close enough for 15% of the cost' where a counterfeit is stealing the artwork and the name.
In my $.02
Love the monolog format, btw
The difference is that with the homage watches, they're often an exact one-to-one copy building materials, movements and build quality---to where they sometimes even fool Rolex dealers. You're also going to pay $500 to $1,000 for homage of a $10,000 Rolex. Generally most people just go with the cheap knockoffs if they're going that route, or if they want to spend that kind of money will get something from a different brand that still has the same quality
@@kavonbakowski8358 I would posit what you are referring to would be counterfeit still.
Counterfeits can range from a $30 wish dot whatever watch to a $1000 copy of a Rolex Daytona, down to a counterfeit movement that real Rolex parts WILL interchange with. It has the branding, it's counterfeit. Whereas steinhart and *cough* Invicta make more homages. 5 to 10 feet away they look 99% the part(they are just watches, after all). But they have their own branding and logos. Counterfeits don't have to be cheap. Or expensive. Just steal trademarks\copyrights.
@@stoneysdead689 haha if you know what a Corgeut or Parnis is you just might be a WIS(if you're not, I apologize. It's a watchuseek forum phrase...)... And yeah. There is a fine line between knock-off(corgeut\parnis) and homage(Invicta steinhart etc).
And just like guitar world, a whole nother realm of new brands buying old IP so they can cash in on the nostalgia with a minimum of R&D(I'm looking at you modern Harmony, Supro, and Silvertone).
Josh saying “I’m a bum bum” in the dead center of this monologue was definitely a highlight for me
Hey Josh, just wanna say how much I love watching these chats from down here in Australia.
Great and informative episode. I am a pedal nerd and a lawyer that specializes in Intellectual Property. I agree with the Trademark and Trade dress explanation you gave. I also agree that already used and created circuits cannot be patented.
That aside, it is fair game to base a new pedal on a former circuit and hopefully improving it tonewise and adding new features.
Upgrading tonewise is fascinating and helps us guitar players enjoy playing more. Hopefuly pedal buildes will keep improving their clones on fuzzes. I appreciate the Legends of Fuzz. I just want to see new upgraded clones with more features. Imagination has no boundaries. Keep rocking JHS.🤘
He mentioned the label "dual drive" on one, I don't think a generic description is something that falls under Trade dress.
I look at it this way.....no guitar player I know is going to be tricked into thinking a Chinese made clone is actually the real thing. No guitar player is going to think, I'll buy this $30 Chinese pedal instead of the $300 real version and it will be just as good. What I think this allows is for someone who my not have $300 to spend on a pedal, especially when for most of us it is very difficult to actually play the pedal in person before we buy it. With the cheap clones we can buy it try it out if we like it then we can save for the real thing. The person who goes out and spends 300 bucks on a pedal that they don't know exactly how it will sound through their rig is not the same person who will buy a $30 Chinese pedal. Me personally I would never spend a large amount of money on a pedal without playing it myself first. But without the Chinese clones a lot of us would never get to play that style of pedal to see if it is something we think we could work towards saving the money for.
Another great video, much to learn and understand here. For me the best idea you convey is that one of the smartest things a person can do is understand/say/admit, that they are/were wrong about something. This is how we grow, change, and evolve!!! So, there you have it folks! Don't be afraid to admit you were wrong about something, it's the only way you can learn, grow and evolve. You'll feel better too. Makes life so much easier and more fun when we can admit and grow from our limitations.
I find food analogies to be effective. They are easy and relatable to everyone. Thank you for the great channel, Josh and company. Someday I will own some JHS and be able to thank you for your products. Keep it up.