It's a long and painful process dialing the spark map. The WOT columns are pretty easy as you do what is in the video unless you have a base curve already which speeds up the process. The lower load areas are what the pain is as you need to lock the rpm in constant rpm mode on the dyno and vary the throttle to move between cells of that rpm and dial each one as you note the torque figure until you find MBT for each cell. Some areas are hard to hit like super low loads at high rpm or vise versa and you need to take breaks often as the headers can get glowing hot when holding certain loads for a long time with the limited airflow that a dyno fan provides compared to the open road. A lot of tuners are lazy and only do the WOT column and leave/guess the rest of the map, resulting in a car that has poor drivability.
@@whcwcjecjecuecuw6654guess it and look at multiple good tuned maps and advance until you hit that spot and theres knock.. im not an expert on these but this is how i did it
@@whcwcjecjecuecuw6654 For spark you can't really do any of it on the street, you need a dyno. However, fuel you can do the lot on the street as is usually better than the dyno as you get real world air temps, pressures and flow that comes with driving on the road, subtle but different enough to a dyno. You simply log wideband against VE and just drive in all the conditions until you log enough data for the entire map.
Thank you very much for the video, I was one of those who suggested this, in the future I would like to see the effect of afr on the exhaust gas temperature, continue like this:)
Thanks for the video, in the process of tuning my corolla now, not quite sure where my CR is though but confident I can dial a bit more timing in on the street. Still quite down around the 15-18* mark while I get my base fueling sorted. Your channel has been an absolute legend for me these past 6 months getting everything setup and sorted
I have been enjoying your efforts very much. Straight forward and not a lot of noise and attitude. I learn a lot here. It helps me get a better understanding on the effects of the basic adjustments in a tune. Please keep up the good work.
Awesome channel mate. Keep going and never give up! 5 minutes of pure knowledge without any blahblahblah thats it! Im lookin forward to turbo 4age ignition vid ;D
This is beautiful. Adjusting spark timing is quite complex as these adjustments are not made in 500 rpm gaps but much smaller windows in more complex builds. And, this exercise shown here was performed only at 100% load, you can still set optimal timings for lower loads. Imagine doing this for every 100 rpm, all they way up to redline and also for 10% loads, 15%, 20, 25, 30, 35... Modern day ecu tunes are normally far more precise than that. They not only seek the optimal output but they also analyze the exhaust emission characteristics and efficiency, bsfc etc Modern cars have alot of timing being pulled off from their maps because in specific areas and regions their engines sometimes peak in either nox, sox or hc... in order to cut that out timming and fuel events can be pulled.
Yeah this video just scrapes the surface. Factory would spend thousands of hours on tunes for various reasons. Its slightly annoying, when people expect an aftermarket ecu to be tuned in a couple of hours and drive better than factory 😂 .
I had a teacher back at mechanical engineering school who spent 21 years working for GM, he worked in several cars such as the Cruze, Kadett, Monza, Omega and so on. He mentioned powertrain dept spending several months setting ecu maps on the 1.8 N/A Cruze just to adapt it to our market. They weren't developing the car itself, that was just to adapt it to the fuels (flex fuel market) and different weather. And regarding your customers, it must be a pain in the ass sometimes lol
@@hojnikb yeah, tuning for emissions while retaining drivability, doesn't sound like much fun. aftermarket stuff on a simple setup, isn't that hard to get a tune knocked out fast that drives good. but the little things, fine tuning and cold starts and the likes take time
Generally you want peak cylinder pressure to happen at around 15 degrees after top dead center, regardless of rpm. Because the gas expands "slowly" you have to start the ignition some time before this. If the gas expanded instantly, you'd have timing fixed somewhere around 15 ATDC at all rpm and load. But if the expansion rate is "slow" because its real life then: If at 3000rpm you had 10 degrees ignition timing, the total to 15 ATDC is 25 degrees (and however many milliseconds that is) So at 6000rpm the motor is spinning twice as fast, so to ignite the same amount of time before 15 ATDC you'd need 25 * 2 = 50 degrees (same amount of milliseconds) Then subract the 15 again and you have 35 deg ign timing before top dead center. Which sanity checks reasonably well. There are other factors involved which make this rule not exactly true, but its a good way to visualize why you need more timing as rpm goes up. If not for distributors needing a mechanical reference point that's convenient, and that BTDC numbers have become convention. You'd probably have a more meaningfully shaped ignition map by having "zero" timing at the point you're hoping to have peak combustion pressure happen. (ie, add 15 degrees to all the numbers) Some OEM ECUs have this with a "flame speed" based ignition table instead of degrees before TDC. As I think this makes it easier to incorporate multiple ignition trims in a meaningful way, like air fuel ratio changing and IAT changing.
@@RomanDaveThings There are way more variables to add...its not that linear sir...map,compression,iat,chambers design, and this is what i remenber, ppbably few things more for sure.
Excellent video. This is what separates the builds that last for years from the builds that last 4 days. You do a great job with demonstrating solid data and no nonsense.
What was the trap ? is it hot oil temp giving more tq ? also why in the end you lower the Ign Adv frol 37+ to 33 even tho the 37 gave extra numbers... ? thanks for the video by the way, very demonstrative
I was showing if don't run the engine under same conditions, it may look like there are power gains but aren't. in this case oil temp. you can see how people can end up with there engines over advanced, by thinking extra timing added more power, but it was something else causing the gain I lowered the timing back down to show there is minimal change in power once its close to where it needs to be, if engine was close to knock. that 5 degrees less timing is a big safety buffer for only a kw or 2.
numbers will be a decent amount lower. but thats not so much it being turbo. even high power na will need less timing. but can also vary vastly between engines depending how they have been modified.
thanks a lot for this kind of vids! absolutely awesome stuff!!! watching this vid i remembered the Oem 4age ecu timing has to be set to an initial timing of 16 degrees (out of diagnosis mode at idle) but as soon as you are WOT the timing continues advancing to a point. Whats the final timing for the oem 4age ecu? For those who dont have knock sensor, how do we know by torque figures on the dyno when its time to go back few degrees before knocking starts doing bad things? thx!
Theres some ignition maps floating around the net, that are meant to be from stock ecu, im unsure how they collected the data though. I always use knock detection when setting timing on dyno. most na 4ages will get to best timing before running into knock. unless on low octane pump gas
That was showing if you run the engine up with hotter engine oil. Engine Will make more power. It's a common mistake to do run after run advancing the timing and the power gain is from the hotter oil rather than the timing increase. Always a good idea to confirm the gain by doing another run with the timing increase removed
If your engine makes more power than this one, will need less advance. also remember my note at start of vid re base timing being slightly off on this test
Your oil temp effect is really quite significant, do you have a standard sump and fill level? What are the chances the crank is spinning through the oil? Lost 30+kW once from this..... 🤔 What fuel was this run on? Would have been good to see you push it through into knock and see the full MBT curve. Lots of engines don't reach knock threshold at all rpms as they just don't have the comp and VE.
yeh 3-4kw on these engines. doesn't change as power increases as you would expect, so gap looks bigger on this engine with its lack of power. stock sump and windage tray. have tried running at lower oil level no change. 98ron. was past mbt for most of the curve. no point trying to find knock.
@@Garage4age you know that the timing curves you have should show an x2 relationship. Pick an rpm and plot timing vs torque and you will get your MBT torque. Do this at all the other rpms and you have your best theoretical best timing and torque assuming no knock. That's then your actual target.
@@benheynen2705 If fame speed stayed the same across the whole rpm range this would work. since pressure, heat and the likes change flame speed. isn't usually the case.
@@Garage4age just saying how OE does it...... Everything changes with velocity. Take an rpm and plot it out, check the fit of an x2 curve on those points. Message me if you want, be great to have a chat.
@@Garage4age Great! Maybe doing some drivability adjustments, accel enrichment (wall wetting), afr targets, knock retard. I just feel like you are very knowledgeable and some of us might learn a thing or two. And plus the back to back dyno runs are music to our ears lol.
hey, haven't done a video of it. Basically the same thing happens. but the required timing to make max power is less. not really due to be being turbo. more of a cylinder pressure thing. my high power na engines dont need as much advance as this one
Hello! I'd like to make more powah out of a stock 1.1i engine which makes 60 hp. It's from a Citroën Saxo. Can I just safely set ignition timing 15° earlier to make more power without destroying it? How much power would it make?
with less load (part throttle) more vacuum, you can add extra timing through vacuum advance to help ignite a leaner slower-burning mix for cruise econemy. On a race car, this is pointless.
Do you agree that the bell curve for peak power fuel ratio is way more tolerant than the ignition curve ? if I had a choice of electronic control of an engine, I'd choose ignition timing over fuel
Yes, in terms of making power. ignition timing is far more critical to get right. Long as afr is in the ballpark power numbers will be very similar. But of course afr numbers should be right for other reasons
@@Garage4age yes, the biggest reason for afr being well within the ' ballpark ' is high supercharger pressures & turbo supercharges are notorious in this regard. this is where running Meth / Eth alcohol will give you double the latitude .... thank you for your great effort
Thanks you so much bro, I learn a lot, could you do on the fuelling side too please....how much fuel added on every rev range, also do you make that extractor in your starlet and are they for sale...cheers bro
there is already a video like this on the channel, about the afr, I think that the ideal is that it runs thin at low rpm to save fuel and that it runs thick at high rpm for greater power
As above check out my other video "afr vs power" . I built the extractors yes. not for sale sorry. although i may make a few sets to sell in the future if get time. as a lot of people ask about them
Yes bro let me know how much, I want two...May you do dial up cam timing using kelford spec sheet or any...thanks...and doing true top dead centre stuff, no one doing it that it can be understood....cheers bro...merry Xmas....
@@edups3307 Not 100% sure what you mean., but lots of things can effect the chance of knock . but if dont tune on the edge of knock, allow at least a few degrees before knock. always run same gas as tuned on and add some safteys tha pull timing if any of the temps etc arent right. generally isnt any issue without knock detection. most aftermarket ecu's knock detection isnt that good and requires running the engine into knock to set it up.
was on 98 ron. was listening for knock with detset. but wasn't expecting any, even at the high timing numbers. as engine is same comp and uses same fuel as turbo engine.
Not quite what you asked. but this video will give you an idea of the difference between a well setup intake for bigger cams and the stock item ua-cam.com/video/c4keKCEa35w/v-deo.html Its smallport stuff but the tvis manifold makes similar power to the smallport one. tvis manifold makes a little more down low and a little less up top
@@OEMplusRESTO Itb's will run a lot nicer at idle and low rpm than a single, when using bigger cams. they dont necessarily make more power. but its easier to get the runner lengths and the likes right.
Interesting, that the engine accepts 30deg at low end without knocking. For a 4V engine I expected 15 to 28deg on full load. What fuel is it and CR 10:1?
depends on engine and fuel etc. engine in video isn't knock limited. reaches maximum power before knock. I always listen for knock through headphones when tuning
Around 10.3:1 compression. and 98 ron gas. so pretty easy to over advance with no knock. my turbo engine runs about the same compression. I use a detset to listen for knock (knock sensor, small audio amp and headphones)
Was going to do this when my good engine goes back in, (maybe awhile away) probably while revisiting the outboard injection. On this engine likely wont be any difference, but might throw some numbers at it next time im running it up, see if its worth doing a vid.
@@Garage4age It would be very interesting, according to what I think an early injection time would improve the air-fuel mixture, I will look forward to it ...
What do you mean °BTDC?. You mean you get more power if you start ignition way before the piston hits TDC?. Is it not the other way (until a certain point). You try to retard the signal so that the piston does not have to go against the ignition that is already taking place (which is already creating a downward force), also not too much due to optimal compression?. Why does everybody say that you need to retard it but in your test you advance it?. I did it myself but got higher power by retarding the signal not advancing it, and defintiley not 30°. Am I missing something? If so could you please clarify it?
It takes time for the fuel to ignite and start making significant pressure. So yeah pretty much ever combustion engine will have the ignition event before top dead center. some engines have a combustion chamber that promotes faster burn and will need less advance. or if same engine is making more power it na tuned or power adder it usually needs a little less advance to make best power
Yeah they work totally different. they don't effect each other much. some small ignition timing adjustments maybe needed if cam timing is adjusted and engine makes a decent gain/loss power in different places over rpm range. I have vids on cam timing if you haven't seen them already.
Not sure what country your from, but its 98 ron which is about 93 usa mon gas. it will run fine on 95ron but 98 same price and can do silly stuff like this without knock
because engines will make more power with hotter/thinner oil if everything else is the same. I was basically showing if engine isn't run at the same temps etc. that the power gains from more timing may not actually be gains. I have a short vid on how much the oil temps effect power ua-cam.com/video/HJZnmTTjniU/v-deo.html
thinner oil causes less friction and as such less parasitic drag to the engine. part of the reason why modern cars use such thing oils; less power robbed from the friction, more mpgs.
@@RobertsChannell difference between 232 and 270 ist that big (well deppends on cam) but some are more like 250° with extra low lift (less than 0.3mm) just to help load shims
the base timing was slightly off. so was 35-36 degrees not 37. but yeh only 10.3 and 98 ron. these engines usually like around 30deg. my big cam engine only needs 28-29 deg
I tried an old trick with new tech coz i don't have a dyno, but basically i set the timing (with a distributor based ignition), to a bit retarded and used a GPS speedometer app to time how long it takes ny car to accelerate from 50kph to 80kph. I start at about 30 kph in 3rd gear and go full throttle as soon as I was in line with a certain post on the side of the road... Note the time recorded to go from 50 to 80 and do that exact same run 3 times, add all the times together and record the average. Then go back to my house and advance the timing by 2° then do the 3 runs again. Basically the plan was to keep testing and adjusting until I either heard some pinging coming from the engine or else the 50-80kph time didn't increase.... So I started at 8° BTDC and at 14° BTDC my times started getting slower again so I settled on 12° which was 2 seconds faster than 8° which worked out to a 15% improvement over where I started... This was with an old 4 cylinder car from the 70's with a stock engine apart from an exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe with a straight thru muffler. Never got to the point where I could hear any pinging and it honestly was only a little bit more advanced than spec. One weird thing i noticed was i actually ended up having to do 4 runs each time because the first one was always about 3 seconds slower than the average of the following runs, so I just used the first one after each timing adjustment as a warmup and didn't record that time. If the GPS speedometer trick doesn't seem accurate you can always do it the old fashioned way and use a stopwatch and the car's speedometer or even the tachometer... The principle is the same, you're giving it the exact same throttle input on the exact same stretch of road with the exact same load on the engine. It's better to use as high a gear as possible, that way it takes a longer amount of time to get from your start speed to your finish speed and you can hit the stopwatch more accurately when your speedo needle is exactly on the same marks every time.
first run was probably an oil temp thing. most na stuff will make more power as oil temp goes up. engine, gearbox and diff. i have to do at least 4 full dyno pulls on this car once water temp is at operating, before will make consistent power
i though someone will ask about this myth.. afr doesnt change with timing, it dont care if it ignites in cylinder, exhaust.. it just measures oxygen present in air. if you didnt mean this just hp gain from changing afr/timing (like 35° with going leaner, i mean being knock limited) then best for power is 14-15.5 afr, you can found more in webbinar from hp academy
![How To Tune A Turbo Engine | Turbocharged Engine Tuning 101 [GOLD WEBINAR LESSON]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Dca43nEWEys/mqdefault.jpg)
One of the best channels out there.Keep going, keep doing things.
I agree, he is keeping it very simple and very informative. Indeed one of the best channels I came across.
It's a long and painful process dialing the spark map. The WOT columns are pretty easy as you do what is in the video unless you have a base curve already which speeds up the process. The lower load areas are what the pain is as you need to lock the rpm in constant rpm mode on the dyno and vary the throttle to move between cells of that rpm and dial each one as you note the torque figure until you find MBT for each cell. Some areas are hard to hit like super low loads at high rpm or vise versa and you need to take breaks often as the headers can get glowing hot when holding certain loads for a long time with the limited airflow that a dyno fan provides compared to the open road.
A lot of tuners are lazy and only do the WOT column and leave/guess the rest of the map, resulting in a car that has poor drivability.
How would you street tune the lower areas
@@whcwcjecjecuecuw6654guess it and look at multiple good tuned maps and advance until you hit that spot and theres knock.. im not an expert on these but this is how i did it
@@whcwcjecjecuecuw6654
For spark you can't really do any of it on the street, you need a dyno. However, fuel you can do the lot on the street as is usually better than the dyno as you get real world air temps, pressures and flow that comes with driving on the road, subtle but different enough to a dyno. You simply log wideband against VE and just drive in all the conditions until you log enough data for the entire map.
By far my favourite channel for dyno tuning and engine building. Have learnt heaps, keep up the good work mate!
Thank you very much for the video, I was one of those who suggested this, in the future I would like to see the effect of afr on the exhaust gas temperature, continue like this:)
I'd like to see that too :)
Thanks for the video, in the process of tuning my corolla now, not quite sure where my CR is though but confident I can dial a bit more timing in on the street. Still quite down around the 15-18* mark while I get my base fueling sorted.
Your channel has been an absolute legend for me these past 6 months getting everything setup and sorted
I have been enjoying your efforts very much. Straight forward and not a lot of noise and attitude. I learn a lot here. It helps me get a better understanding on the effects of the basic adjustments in a tune. Please keep up the good work.
wow that really took alot, wouldnt mind seeing this done on the turbo engine as well
I love everything you do!! 👍
Awesome channel mate. Keep going and never give up! 5 minutes of pure knowledge without any blahblahblah thats it! Im lookin forward to turbo 4age ignition vid ;D
no one got time for a 30min vlog 😂
@@Garage4age Even if you made a 30min vid, everyone would watch it. Trust me: D
Fantastic. Absolutely clean and easy to understand
Again this video is super!!!!! 110% practical videos, congrats.
This is beautiful.
Adjusting spark timing is quite complex as these adjustments are not made in 500 rpm gaps but much smaller windows in more complex builds.
And, this exercise shown here was performed only at 100% load, you can still set optimal timings for lower loads.
Imagine doing this for every 100 rpm, all they way up to redline and also for 10% loads, 15%, 20, 25, 30, 35...
Modern day ecu tunes are normally far more precise than that.
They not only seek the optimal output but they also analyze the exhaust emission characteristics and efficiency, bsfc etc
Modern cars have alot of timing being pulled off from their maps because in specific areas and regions their engines sometimes peak in either nox, sox or hc... in order to cut that out timming and fuel events can be pulled.
Yeah this video just scrapes the surface. Factory would spend thousands of hours on tunes for various reasons. Its slightly annoying, when people expect an aftermarket ecu to be tuned in a couple of hours and drive better than factory 😂 .
I had a teacher back at mechanical engineering school who spent 21 years working for GM, he worked in several cars such as the Cruze, Kadett, Monza, Omega and so on.
He mentioned powertrain dept spending several months setting ecu maps on the 1.8 N/A Cruze just to adapt it to our market. They weren't developing the car itself, that was just to adapt it to the fuels (flex fuel market) and different weather.
And regarding your customers, it must be a pain in the ass sometimes lol
@@Garage4age i mean, A LOT of the tuning comes down to emissions, not just drivability.
@@hojnikb yeah, tuning for emissions while retaining drivability, doesn't sound like much fun. aftermarket stuff on a simple setup, isn't that hard to get a tune knocked out fast that drives good. but the little things, fine tuning and cold starts and the likes take time
very interesting, thanks ! I always thought that aprox 25° advance was sort of max at +6000rpm, apparently not
Generally you want peak cylinder pressure to happen at around 15 degrees after top dead center, regardless of rpm.
Because the gas expands "slowly" you have to start the ignition some time before this.
If the gas expanded instantly, you'd have timing fixed somewhere around 15 ATDC at all rpm and load.
But if the expansion rate is "slow" because its real life then:
If at 3000rpm you had 10 degrees ignition timing, the total to 15 ATDC is 25 degrees (and however many milliseconds that is)
So at 6000rpm the motor is spinning twice as fast, so to ignite the same amount of time before 15 ATDC you'd need 25 * 2 = 50 degrees (same amount of milliseconds)
Then subract the 15 again and you have 35 deg ign timing before top dead center. Which sanity checks reasonably well.
There are other factors involved which make this rule not exactly true, but its a good way to visualize why you need more timing as rpm goes up.
If not for distributors needing a mechanical reference point that's convenient, and that BTDC numbers have become convention.
You'd probably have a more meaningfully shaped ignition map by having "zero" timing at the point you're hoping to have peak combustion pressure happen. (ie, add 15 degrees to all the numbers)
Some OEM ECUs have this with a "flame speed" based ignition table instead of degrees before TDC.
As I think this makes it easier to incorporate multiple ignition trims in a meaningful way, like air fuel ratio changing and IAT changing.
@@RomanDaveThings There are way more variables to add...its not that linear sir...map,compression,iat,chambers design, and this is what i remenber, ppbably few things more for sure.
Excellent work.
Very interesting how you have done your map.
Thank you.
Extremely useful tests! Thanks a lot! And greetings from Ukraine!
Коротко и ясно. Спасибо большое за ваш труд.
Cracking vid, I knew timing was important but I didn’t realise how much of an affect it can have
Really makes me want my own dyno so I can finally get my car dialed in.
same.
just started with tuning my s13 ca18det this year.
downloaded a ignition map from somewhere in the net. you can even feel how wack it is.
Virtual Dyno & Megasquirt
Always wanted to see what timing changes does, very cool
The best "Less talk, post results" channel out in UA-cam.
What an amazing video! That was extremely informative to hp and timing! Thank you!
Excellent video. This is what separates the builds that last for years from the builds that last 4 days. You do a great job with demonstrating solid data and no nonsense.
Pretty much supports what many of us have been saying. Advance till the motor stops adding power then back it off 2 degrees.
The video I thought you should have done, and you didn't disappoint.
Awesome video. Love to see real world results of tests on a dyno. Cheers mate
Some advanced stuff happening here
I want to heare it knock!
Thanks for releasing your Ignition curve.
Loved it man! Power might not increase with more timing to a point. But finding MBT ( mean best timing) is best for torque
beautiful demonstration with oil temp
You can see by the lambda too(with corrections off) if its leaning its gainning hp
What compression ratio? And what is the octane number of the fuel?
interesting test! really cool to see how it affects power made
Damn..... that was good info!
Thank you for sharing!
Really Nice video, very instrutive. Keep it up the good job!
hat down guys, thanks for the share. u are just perfect!! big thumbs up . very simple and very informative
Great Channel. I love what you do.
Greetings from Germany.
Thank you! It was interesting to regret that there was no knock sensor
THANK YOU SIR!! it forced me to do rerun of my subaru ez30
Awwww the wonderful world of N/A timing advance haha. I'm just over here trying to run 15* on my 4G63
What was the trap ? is it hot oil temp giving more tq ?
also why in the end you lower the Ign Adv frol 37+ to 33 even tho the 37 gave extra numbers... ?
thanks for the video by the way, very demonstrative
I was showing if don't run the engine under same conditions, it may look like there are power gains but aren't. in this case oil temp. you can see how people can end up with there engines over advanced, by thinking extra timing added more power, but it was something else causing the gain
I lowered the timing back down to show there is minimal change in power once its close to where it needs to be, if engine was close to knock. that 5 degrees less timing is a big safety buffer for only a kw or 2.
Wow 😮 love that also have a ? What ECU it's good for the 4efe of 5e in my case?
Plz do ignition timing on your turbo 4age. This is pretty insightful. Thanks.
numbers will be a decent amount lower. but thats not so much it being turbo. even high power na will need less timing. but can also vary vastly between engines depending how they have been modified.
I just find your channel. Veery interesting content. Subscribed!
thanks a lot for this kind of vids! absolutely awesome stuff!!!
watching this vid i remembered the Oem 4age ecu timing has to be set to an initial timing of 16 degrees (out of diagnosis mode at idle) but as soon as you are WOT the timing continues advancing to a point. Whats the final timing for the oem 4age ecu?
For those who dont have knock sensor, how do we know by torque figures on the dyno when its time to go back few degrees before knocking starts doing bad things? thx!
Theres some ignition maps floating around the net, that are meant to be from stock ecu, im unsure how they collected the data though. I always use knock detection when setting timing on dyno. most na 4ages will get to best timing before running into knock. unless on low octane pump gas
Excellent video
I remember in my 4a-ge the afr was always running rich and never found out why
Well done video! I can't explain why the timing advance is higher with hot engine oil, can you clarify please?
That was showing if you run the engine up with hotter engine oil. Engine Will make more power. It's a common mistake to do run after run advancing the timing and the power gain is from the hotter oil rather than the timing increase. Always a good idea to confirm the gain by doing another run with the timing increase removed
this video is extremely underrated
The best channel !!! Very interesting, thanks man!
ive been fluffing around doing road tunes for my 4age with haltech elite. going to try some of these values, looks promising
If your engine makes more power than this one, will need less advance. also remember my note at start of vid re base timing being slightly off on this test
@@Garage4age copy that. Its a standard bigport with cop conversion. Less advance as in closer to btdc?
@@ItsOnlySmellz787 yeah. take away 1-2 from all my numbers
Awsome vídeo. One question.. hiw mutch CR ? Pump gas?
only 10.3 on this one. was either 95 or 98 ron pump gas. can't remember sorry
Wow, thanks a lot mate! Great stuff!
Amazing. Could you use lambda over the afr in next videos? Its better to see how are your mixture!
Your oil temp effect is really quite significant, do you have a standard sump and fill level? What are the chances the crank is spinning through the oil? Lost 30+kW once from this..... 🤔
What fuel was this run on? Would have been good to see you push it through into knock and see the full MBT curve. Lots of engines don't reach knock threshold at all rpms as they just don't have the comp and VE.
yeh 3-4kw on these engines. doesn't change as power increases as you would expect, so gap looks bigger on this engine with its lack of power. stock sump and windage tray. have tried running at lower oil level no change.
98ron. was past mbt for most of the curve. no point trying to find knock.
@@Garage4age you know that the timing curves you have should show an x2 relationship. Pick an rpm and plot timing vs torque and you will get your MBT torque. Do this at all the other rpms and you have your best theoretical best timing and torque assuming no knock. That's then your actual target.
@@benheynen2705 If fame speed stayed the same across the whole rpm range this would work. since pressure, heat and the likes change flame speed. isn't usually the case.
@@Garage4age just saying how OE does it...... Everything changes with velocity. Take an rpm and plot it out, check the fit of an x2 curve on those points. Message me if you want, be great to have a chat.
Awesome channel budd... Any chance a follow up on both ignition and fuel tuning? Thanks again for all that you do!
Possibly, what would you like to see?
@@Garage4age Great! Maybe doing some drivability adjustments, accel enrichment (wall wetting), afr targets, knock retard. I just feel like you are very knowledgeable and some of us might learn a thing or two. And plus the back to back dyno runs are music to our ears lol.
Amazing video!!!
Great video! Do you have something similar with the turbo 4age? I would love to see the timing vs power effect on the high hp 4age turbo motor.
hey, haven't done a video of it. Basically the same thing happens. but the required timing to make max power is less. not really due to be being turbo. more of a cylinder pressure thing. my high power na engines dont need as much advance as this one
Hello! I'd like to make more powah out of a stock 1.1i engine which makes 60 hp. It's from a Citroën Saxo. Can I just safely set ignition timing 15° earlier to make more power without destroying it? How much power would it make?
Would love to see part throttle timing adjustments.
with less load (part throttle) more vacuum, you can add extra timing through vacuum advance to help ignite a leaner slower-burning mix for cruise econemy. On a race car, this is pointless.
Outstanding!!
I Love this channel!!!!! thanks
Thanks man. suspicions confirmed.
Great video
Do you agree that the bell curve for peak power fuel ratio is way more tolerant than the ignition curve ? if I had a choice of electronic control of an engine, I'd choose ignition timing over fuel
Yes, in terms of making power. ignition timing is far more critical to get right. Long as afr is in the ballpark power numbers will be very similar. But of course afr numbers should be right for other reasons
@@Garage4age yes, the biggest reason for afr being well within the ' ballpark ' is high supercharger pressures & turbo supercharges are notorious in this regard. this is where running Meth / Eth alcohol will give you double the latitude .... thank you for your great effort
Do you have the standard knock sensor still hooked up? Do you see any detonation during the higher hp tests? Great vid
standard sensor long gone. well i don't think this block would have had one stock. I use a detset to listen for knock. no det, its only 10:3:1 on 98.
@@Garage4age 10.3:1?, Isn't 13:1? I thought that it was 13:1
@@iliasmetalworks different engine, hence lack of power. see last weeks vid
these videos are so educational, I love it!
Thanks you so much bro, I learn a lot, could you do on the fuelling side too please....how much fuel added on every rev range, also do you make that extractor in your starlet and are they for sale...cheers bro
there is already a video like this on the channel, about the afr, I think that the ideal is that it runs thin at low rpm to save fuel and that it runs thick at high rpm for greater power
As above check out my other video "afr vs power" . I built the extractors yes. not for sale sorry. although i may make a few sets to sell in the future if get time. as a lot of people ask about them
Yes bro let me know how much, I want two...May you do dial up cam timing using kelford spec sheet or any...thanks...and doing true top dead centre stuff, no one doing it that it can be understood....cheers bro...merry Xmas....
Awesome video. What about predetonation? Do you have a knock sensor?
I listen for knock with a detset. knock sensor and headphones
@@Garage4age Ok but messing with ignition, giving more time, does it increase the chance of knock? You're just advancing the spark
@@edups3307 Not 100% sure what you mean., but lots of things can effect the chance of knock . but if dont tune on the edge of knock, allow at least a few degrees before knock. always run same gas as tuned on and add some safteys tha pull timing if any of the temps etc arent right. generally isnt any issue without knock detection. most aftermarket ecu's knock detection isnt that good and requires running the engine into knock to set it up.
@@Garage4age I mean how do you know it's detonating from the spark and not predetonating?
Not predetonating but after-detonating.
Brilliant mate
Love the content
Love ya work Bois from chch xox
Did it have a knock sensor and what fuel octane? In the UK you have 95ron and 98ron, don't know about Australia or New Zealand where you are..
was on 98 ron. was listening for knock with detset. but wasn't expecting any, even at the high timing numbers. as engine is same comp and uses same fuel as turbo engine.
Is 12.5 to 15 degree fluctuation normal spark adv at idle for Toyota corolla 1.8l engine?
big thanks!!!!!!
keep up bri i am realy learning from you
Viewer request
What is the max power one can get retaining the tvis intake?
Not quite what you asked. but this video will give you an idea of the difference between a well setup intake for bigger cams and the stock item ua-cam.com/video/c4keKCEa35w/v-deo.html Its smallport stuff but the tvis manifold makes similar power to the smallport one. tvis manifold makes a little more down low and a little less up top
@@Garage4age thank you. Very interesting. Im curious at what power level the itb’s make more sense for a weekend warrior non tracked car
@@OEMplusRESTO Itb's will run a lot nicer at idle and low rpm than a single, when using bigger cams. they dont necessarily make more power. but its easier to get the runner lengths and the likes right.
@@Garage4age thank you.
The hot run was interesting. Try some Hybrid engine oil for me. :)
Interesting, that the engine accepts 30deg at low end without knocking.
For a 4V engine I expected 15 to 28deg on full load.
What fuel is it and CR 10:1?
10.3:1 98ron. after i filmed this turns out the base timing was slightly off. (2 degrees retarded) so take off 2deg from all the numbers you see.
Hi, what about knock? Seems You can add advance but knock can occur. Thanks.
depends on engine and fuel etc. engine in video isn't knock limited. reaches maximum power before knock. I always listen for knock through headphones when tuning
thanks for all what you do! can you tell what compression ratio and fuel do you use? Do you have knock sensor?
Around 10.3:1 compression. and 98 ron gas. so pretty easy to over advance with no knock. my turbo engine runs about the same compression. I use a detset to listen for knock (knock sensor, small audio amp and headphones)
@Ben T. was going to ask for the same :-)
Does this mean advanced timing give better top end? I thought it was the other way around
So good
What fuel and compression is it running .. wouldn't have thought it would like that much timing at top end
98 ron. roughly 10.3 compression.
Hi Garage 4age, would you happen to know the total timing advance for a stock 20v? Many thanks!
they tend to like pretty similar numbers to 16v.
Turbo ignition timing map making please🎉
Hello, do you want to make a video about injektion timing?
Was going to do this when my good engine goes back in, (maybe awhile away) probably while revisiting the outboard injection. On this engine likely wont be any difference, but might throw some numbers at it next time im running it up, see if its worth doing a vid.
@@Garage4age It would be very interesting, according to what I think an early injection time would improve the air-fuel mixture, I will look forward to it ...
What do you mean °BTDC?. You mean you get more power if you start ignition way before the piston hits TDC?. Is it not the other way (until a certain point). You try to retard the signal so that the piston does not have to go against the ignition that is already taking place (which is already creating a downward force), also not too much due to optimal compression?. Why does everybody say that you need to retard it but in your test you advance it?. I did it myself but got higher power by retarding the signal not advancing it, and defintiley not 30°. Am I missing something? If so could you please clarify it?
It takes time for the fuel to ignite and start making significant pressure. So yeah pretty much ever combustion engine will have the ignition event before top dead center. some engines have a combustion chamber that promotes faster burn and will need less advance. or if same engine is making more power it na tuned or power adder it usually needs a little less advance to make best power
Is there any difference between changing ignition timing and changing the timing via the cam angle adjustment?
do you mean cam timing vs ignition timing. or changing ignition timing at the cam/ crank angle sensor?
@@Garage4age cam timing vs ignition timing and what if you combine both
Yeah they work totally different. they don't effect each other much. some small ignition timing adjustments maybe needed if cam timing is adjusted and engine makes a decent gain/loss power in different places over rpm range. I have vids on cam timing if you haven't seen them already.
why 98 octane gas on 10.3 cr engine ?? nice video !!
Not sure what country your from, but its 98 ron which is about 93 usa mon gas. it will run fine on 95ron but 98 same price and can do silly stuff like this without knock
@@Garage4age ok thanks , agree with you, im from spain, nice videos !!
nice
Wow!
Why on high oli temp its better result?
because engines will make more power with hotter/thinner oil if everything else is the same. I was basically showing if engine isn't run at the same temps etc. that the power gains from more timing may not actually be gains. I have a short vid on how much the oil temps effect power ua-cam.com/video/HJZnmTTjniU/v-deo.html
thinner oil causes less friction and as such less parasitic drag to the engine. part of the reason why modern cars use such thing oils; less power robbed from the friction, more mpgs.
@@Garage4age yeah it Has sense thanks
fascinating .what is the cr and cam duration ? i am guessing at 9.5:1 and 270 d inlet :)
10.3:1 and stock cams which are pretty tiny 230deg from memory
@@Garage4age wow those heads
must flow well .
@@RobertsChannell it's not a stock head
@@Ultrasonictwo ah i see that makes sense .
@@RobertsChannell difference between 232 and 270 ist that big (well deppends on cam) but some are more like 250° with extra low lift (less than 0.3mm) just to help load shims
How did you check knock margin during this test? thanks
I listen for knock using a detset (headphones and knock sensor /mic)
you really did run 37 deg advanced at wot ? I am tuning bmw straight 6 engine and get scared at 27deg...(what gasoline are you using?)98 octane*
the base timing was slightly off. so was 35-36 degrees not 37. but yeh only 10.3 and 98 ron. these engines usually like around 30deg. my big cam engine only needs 28-29 deg
👍
I tried an old trick with new tech coz i don't have a dyno, but basically i set the timing (with a distributor based ignition), to a bit retarded and used a GPS speedometer app to time how long it takes ny car to accelerate from 50kph to 80kph. I start at about 30 kph in 3rd gear and go full throttle as soon as I was in line with a certain post on the side of the road... Note the time recorded to go from 50 to 80 and do that exact same run 3 times, add all the times together and record the average.
Then go back to my house and advance the timing by 2° then do the 3 runs again. Basically the plan was to keep testing and adjusting until I either heard some pinging coming from the engine or else the 50-80kph time didn't increase.... So I started at 8° BTDC and at 14° BTDC my times started getting slower again so I settled on 12° which was 2 seconds faster than 8° which worked out to a 15% improvement over where I started... This was with an old 4 cylinder car from the 70's with a stock engine apart from an exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe with a straight thru muffler. Never got to the point where I could hear any pinging and it honestly was only a little bit more advanced than spec.
One weird thing i noticed was i actually ended up having to do 4 runs each time because the first one was always about 3 seconds slower than the average of the following runs, so I just used the first one after each timing adjustment as a warmup and didn't record that time.
If the GPS speedometer trick doesn't seem accurate you can always do it the old fashioned way and use a stopwatch and the car's speedometer or even the tachometer... The principle is the same, you're giving it the exact same throttle input on the exact same stretch of road with the exact same load on the engine. It's better to use as high a gear as possible, that way it takes a longer amount of time to get from your start speed to your finish speed and you can hit the stopwatch more accurately when your speedo needle is exactly on the same marks every time.
first run was probably an oil temp thing. most na stuff will make more power as oil temp goes up. engine, gearbox and diff. i have to do at least 4 full dyno pulls on this car once water temp is at operating, before will make consistent power
Can you try water injection ? (not methanol)
Maybe at some stage. i have ran it before in the past with water only. but dont bother anymore as another thing to go wrong.
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maybe next time change ignition timing vs change AFR
i though someone will ask about this myth.. afr doesnt change with timing, it dont care if it ignites in cylinder, exhaust.. it just measures oxygen present in air.
if you didnt mean this just hp gain from changing afr/timing (like 35° with going leaner, i mean being knock limited) then best for power is 14-15.5 afr, you can found more in webbinar from hp academy