Effects of cam timing on turbo engine - Dyno tested - 4AGE Hilux
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- Опубліковано 20 лис 2020
- As requested, this time I show the changes in power curve, from adjusting inlet and exhaust camshaft timing on a turbo engine. Test subject: 4AGE (w/stock cams) Turbo Hilux
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Insta : @garage4age
@Garage 4age - Авто та транспорт
And that’s how the car manufacturers companies figured they need VVTi. Good job showing the effects of cam timing 👍👍
Cam specs of factory cams (so internet says):
232° duration
7.1mm lift
8°BTDC inlet opening
47°BBDC exhaust opening
Ps: sorry for the million dyno runs in this vid 😂. For same reason, I didn't get to moving both cams in the same direction as people wanted to see in the last vid. maybe will do a revisit at a later date. As always open to suggestions for what to test, let me know below. Also if you like 4age's and stickers, check out my latest sicker: teespring.com/garage4age-16v-4age
Fuel injector location at a turbo engine would be awesome! :-)
Great Engines Videos - All! One can read a lot, but here it is the practical attempt. 👍
If you can make a wish here: what would happen if you turned the inlet cam back a little for a later inlet closure (5 ° or 10 ° compared to series inlet with series outlet timing)?
keep it up
> sorry for the million dyno runs in this vid
Don't be sorry, this is why we are here for! :D
You own the dyno I suppose. Why not test every car you can.
Will be very interesting know valve lift at TDC in intake and exhaust with the retarded-advanced degrees.
We can all agree that this is the most underrated channel on youtube
Great video, straight to the point with good overlay of the changes. I love seeing technical tuning videos showing how to make power
It´s so good to see this videos, I insist....the best of internet. Congrats.
Nice to see that nothing has changed in physics in the past 30-odd years. :)
I discovered this channel yesterday and I've already watched almost all of your uploads.
what a great job, man.. these dyno vids are priceless 👏
no blah-blah, no fillers, just facts. this is what we want, keep'em coming!
This test was more decisive and concise that the cam timing test on the N/A 4age
God i love the 4AGE Sound...
Thank a lot for the tests 👍 I have been waiting them for a long time
Mate, i really love your vids!!! So informative and from so many aspects with the data to compare. Love it mate
Great dynos and data collection for referance.
Fantastic video
You've helped me a ton just now!
Best video ever, liked - saved - subbed
Amazing time and effort put into these videos. Thank you 🙌🏽❤️
Very good methodology and very interesting result
Very Very good job. Many thanks for what you do
amazing video!!!! my congrats from Brasil!!!!
That video makes me appreciate my vanos even more!
Soo slightly larger than factory inlet can advanced for the win
Theo brat video i even seen.
Thanks! Garage 4a-ge
Awesome content !!
I got into dohc four cylinders for the gas prices, thanks for making videos that are so rooted in science. I spent an hour on forums researching this before finding your video, clarified so much so quickly.
i love videos like this, really interesting to see how different changes affect the engine. I have for a long time wanted to do the same. but no place and not a lot of money to put up a dyno.
maybe make a video about your dyno setup and cost??
Thank you so much for doing this. I've wanted to know if I could adjust cam timing on my 4age without bending valves for years and I could never find a definitive answer. Going to itbs at the moment too. The information in your videos is priceless. Thank you thank you thank yooooooou. One of your stickers has earned a place on my car.
The 16v's are meant to be a non interference engine, so in theory cam timing could be set where ever you like. I haven't tested /measured it myself though. I can say for sure you will be good 20deg from stock marks on either cam, which is more than enough adjustment. engine in this vid has a head skim and thinner gasket. no clearance issues with those numbers. things get little more interesting with bigger cams though
Tôi theo dõi kênh bạn từ khi còn mới thành lập, cho đến bây giờ tôi mới thực sự hiểu được nội dung của clip, rất rất cảm ơn bạn ❤️❤️
useful video. Thanks.
I should give this a try on my supra, thanks for the data.
thax bro
As expected (but good to verify.)
Advancing the inlet cam can next mild to good gain in the mid range, but falls off up top.
Exhaust cam far less sensitive.
Maybe you should do exhaust testing on turbo and na, like decat vs cat, exhaust backbox before after, mid pipes various sizes.. It'll broaden your audience because not everybody has a turbo or itb'd engines.
I have a close to stock engine going in the red car, to test a few experimental things on that i dont want to risk my good engine on. so may do some other tests on that along the way. As you are right not everyone has a 140-150hp per liter na engine to play with
I had to drop in and check out the video . Love the work you do ... The 4AG is my cup of tea ... I am surprised your not getting a lot more out of your setup . I had stock cams on a KOKI block with intake spacer taken out (the one with all the butterflies in it ) . timing set to 13 degrees a boost retard with a TO4B A/R .40 ex getting 427 HP . 2mm metal head gasket and GZ pistons & ARP conrod bolts ...along with a tricked vacuum sensor . I used to kill GTR's in a quarter mile in a hachi roku (86 corolla ) Man I miss those days ... Keep up the work Garage4age
its only running 12psi in this vid. is setup to make stacks of midrange rather than peak. and is run up in 3rd with heavy 31" tyres. so yeh is actually pretty good that it makes over double stock power for under double the map.
Factory Single inlet vvti: advance in low-mid rpm then tapers to zero advance mid to high rpm..
So if an engine have dual vvti like 08+ sti... Then continue with single inlet vvti trend, with exhaust retard in mid-high rpm for peak power...
Thanks for doing all the manual vvti function explaination...
🥰👍👍 Awesome work
Very interesting. The combo pleases the hp hero and full range performance.
I love youu 😭😭😭👏👏
My Garage 4age sticker arrived and has been installed on my new tool box, next up I'll get the t-shirt that matches the sticker
nice :)
Amazing videos! Can you record a video with different anty lag work systems or launch control
Nice videos! Have you tried to adjust inlet or exhaust after "combo" adjustment? Because after you adjusted both of them, overlap was changed and overlap is important too.
thanks god for vvti :)
I have a Dacia Logan with a built 1.6 16v (Renault engine) and a GT2860R. The stock heads have some very mellow cams and don't rev much past 6000. My car currently makes a bit over 200kw at 1.4bar. I'm planning a head swap from a newer version of the engine which has inlet vvt and some Twingo RS cams that should let it rev a bit past 7000 rpm. Thanks you for giving me such a clear idea of what to expect after this upgrade it terms of how the boost kicks in!
vvt definitely great for having best of both
How is it going these days? The gtx2860 is said to spool 25% earlier than the gt2860.
This is an incredibly romanian comment 😂 that sounds sick, the Logans are wonderful little sleepers
@@dennisrobinson8008 Currently the car revs to 7000, does 370NM at about 4000 rpm and 313hp at 6500. There's a slight pressure drop that needs to be investigated, I think it can max out the turbo and also do 400NM.
Love this, maybe add EGT into the mix at some point too?
Nnnnice 👌🏼
Great video. How is the turbo Luxy going these days?
Man i want to build a hilux like yours when I get the money
would have liked to know what the lobe centers were on factory setting.
Wow, thanks for the info, great video as always!
Advancing intake cam early should work with supercharger too, right?
yeah pretty much does the same na, turbo or supercharged. turbo & supercharged can be a little weird because are altering the the pressure between the exhaust and inlet sides. but usually not an issue unless a fairly aggressive setup.
@@Garage4age Thanks man, you are awesome!
Have you ever tried different spark plugs testing ? Project Farm did some testing on a generator recently... Or maybe test how spark plug intensity by varying dwell charge gives anything in terms of power or it just only helps into spark cut isssues. Maybe try it on the N/A motor which are more sensitive (some bike guys even mark the orientation of the spark electrode)
Good point about the plugs. Its interesting how many people disregard something as basic as the plug temp/ gap. That's the one thing that anyone who is serious about making power should be mandatory, especially when strapping the car to the rollers. Lots of times there is 'lost' power to be gained just by swapping to fresh plugs, regapping, and on an F.I. car, going a step colder. 'Indexing' the plugs like you mentioned is often overlooked and honestly its one of those things that doesn't hurt to do. I love these dyno videos. Having the adjustable cam gears is useful when you want to tailor your power curve to get the most useable powerband for your particular application. There is always a benefit to where you set the timing, and the trick is to find a happy medium without too much advance or retard. Nice work on this Hilux. The bay is super clean, and I really like the plenum design! 👍😎
Do some injection timing testing I both engines!
What are you using for an air filter box? Homemade or pulled from some other Factory application?
Inlet advance was getting the turbo spooled earlier resulting in more power. Exhaust retard/advance wasn't as powerful as the intake side, but exhaust retard seemed to allow it to hang onto the power more the last few hundred rpm.
After these tests i said inlet was 90% of the equation and exhaust was 10%
Interesting, and good timing as I was messing with the cam timing one of my turbo engines this week.
Mine is a Volvo B200FT, so 2ltr 8v Turbo. T3/4 turbo, mildish cam (245 duration, 11.2 lift), home ported head with double valve springs, 30psi boost, stock bottomend, etc.
Obv' being single cam I cant adjust inlet and exhaust separately, though in some respects I don't mind that as it opens a whole can of worms trying to find the sweetest spot lol.
One thing i will say is mine would no way tolerate such big timing swings, even 5deg was more significant than yours at the most extremes!
Basically at factory timing it's ok, making say 15psi by 3500rpm, but the real powerband is 4000-6500rpm, but feels like it peaks at 6ish, just doesn't drop hard after.
I wanted more up top, so 5deg retard time- Significantly faster up top, BUT even that 5deg has moved the start of the powerband up 500rpm, and actually fucking killed power at 4k. It's not lost any powerband in essence as its added a good 500rpm plus up top plus more peak power, but due to my shitty long gearing its actually not much/any faster in many situations according to the timing gear due to this! Not slower though, and sounds better too, so it's staying...!
Yeh unfortunately in most cases works best moving cams in opposite directions. probably why your cam timing window is so much smaller. Maybe you can get away with more boost now if you have any turbo left. since you have probably lowered cylinder pressure where most things want to break in the lower rpms, and are now using the rpm to make power at lower cylinder pressure
@@carstennobody7047 I have Seat 124-2000 with ´Predi 2.022cc 8V turboed as your Integrale 8V, but fitted with old style head from Prisma carb version, 43,5/36 valves, not the reversed as Grale -Croma-Thema 8V ones. GT28RS smoking turbo, years ago with Ritmo Abarth 130TC intake cam and the Argenta 2.0i exhaust cam (no know what lift at TDC that year), the car had a lot torque from 2600rpm, car was very fast from corners, but power ended at near 5500rpm. Later fitted a 11,5mm lift Cat Cams only intake cam, remain the Argenta exhaust cam 9,9mm, and car was faster but only in straight line (Jarama circuit, Madrid), and torque from corners from 2600 dissapeared, car was slower. Now I fitted a 48/40,5 valves Seat head, with the IAW from HF Turbo ie with Integrale 8V ECU (no cat), viewing the video that year with the Ritmo Abarth 130TC IN cam , the cam was near 2 teeth advanced (no vernier pulleys used), but now with the 48mm in valves is difficult advance much, valve-piston clearance issues, I try advance EX cam to 0,50mm at TDC, other years 1 tooth retarded to 2,5mm lift at TDC, Intake at 2,57mm. Next days hope start again the engine, years ago with L-Jetronic 3.1 from Uno Turbo 1.4 and stock Croma Turbo Microplex. Month ago started the engine with the IAW, with the head gasket KO from 2 years ago.
@@carstennobody7047 You are from Germany? By that "OT" mark , Merc uses it , my daily is a W124 300TD (N/A OM603 Wagon, next swap to OM606.962). Bad news, can´t give advance at intake, leave 1,4mm at PMS (1,8mm valve-piston clearance, close), and ex. 0,40mm PMS . Some wiring problem, yesterday engine not started, when months ago started with the IAW. Check your Facebook, think are you.
@@carstennobody7047 OK, then I ask about yu to other person!!!, casuality it is from Germany, red Grale in his photo, and name Carsten. Here W124 are in good condition as general. Yesterday started the ´Predi with IAW, bad, very rich , black smoke, bad starting after first start. Problem was a MAP sensor KO, changed to another one and OK !!!!!, injectors 350cc from Saab, rich at idle 10-11 in AEM gauge. Sound different to previous engine mods, revs happily, FW 4,2Kg, lightened from stock one from Croma 1.9 TDid , was 9.042grams. I use a inside cabin a FPR, to give 11-12 AFR when race.
Which turbo do you run? Gt3076r?
A/R?
I love your videos!
gtx2860 gen2.
In spanish, nesesitas una distribución variable, pero muchas gracias por tu contenido
Greetings I write to ask you since you have more experience in which camshaft is better for 4age turbo engines
Have you degree your engine after that tune to see what numbers you got ?
Thanks for sharing.
This little fucker makes a lot of power with such low boost and stock cams. Stock cams are very mild as well ( assuming these are measured at 0.1mm lift not 0.050”)
Yeah i would think so, found the numbers among a big list of 4age cams which all were all the advertised duration, not 050 numbers. they do look tiny compared to any of my aftermarket cams
Would really want to see this run compared to one with a supercharger so the impact of EGP is removed.
Can you make a video from this engine, comparing different cam setup? Bigger cam on exhaust side and vice versa etc. things like that
will do some cam stuff on this engine at some stage. not for awhile though. in the meantime can say it likes bigger exhaust cam even less that the na setup
That’s interesting, l’m just wondering why some car manufacturers use bigger duration exhaust cam on their turbo setups, for example audi 5cyl turbo from 2014->> has two different cam profiles on exhaust cam (200&270)
It might be desirable to have some overlap simply to blow down the red-hot exhaust valve.
since the factory setting is the best why someone to put adjustable gears?
And now fit some "spicy" cams and do it again
nice video. In conclusion, which was the best pass
depends what you want from the engine really. for me the best compromise is the last run. maybe even more inlet advance considering what it gets used for
@@Garage4age
Perfect reply, usually we are looking for top end power numbers, but a car can be faster with less power but more torque at mid range, an slow corner circuit, for example. Love your videos.
@@jarripotero Yeah a lot of people probably dont find my engine setups that impressive. but if you look away from the peak numbers, and start comparing to what one of these engines makes stock; lucky if 90kw peak on this dyno, probably more like 80. then look down the graphs and see where these engines make the same numbers. kinda tells a different story
you know what could be cool to test on both 4age? carburetors
Great video! Can you please note what gear you're making these dyno runs in?
Always third gear on my turbo engine. speed too fast to run it up in 1:1 gear, for dyno and drive line in this chassis. NA engine is done in 4th
@@Garage4age Ahhh! That explains the high torque values. I was going nuts trying to figure out how your 1.6 was making so much torque! Thanks for the reply.
By the way, these videos provide soo much great info! Thank you!
@@anochieugochuku7303 yeah the torque on the graph is what the rollers are seeing, rather than engine torque. so is the raw torque used to calculate power along with roller rpm. so curve is correct just numbers dont mean much
Very interesting. I have always run my car (4G63) with a blend exactly like this of advanced intake and retarded exhaust and it has always felt great. Put people say overlap is not good for boost? Care to share your thoughts?
It really depends how big the cams are and how much overlap along with the pressure ratio between intake and exhaust. Ive tried some decent sized na cams on this engine, it took a big hit down low - midrange. but were pretty decent gains up top. with the same cams on a na engine the low-midrange dip can be tuned out similar numbers to stock, with the correct header & exhaust. not something you can do with a turbo in the mix. Otherwise on smaller cams adjusting the cam timing will work similar to a na engine as seen here
How much does the exhaust gas temperature vary with different values of afr? one day would you dare to put post and preturbo water injection system?
I used to run port water injection on one of my cars way back over 10 years ago. dont bother these days, just something else to go wrong. haven't tested egt's yet, but is something would like to do in future
a quick question. How much can you move the timings until you can possibly cause damage (valve/piston collision)?
depends on engine. stock 16v 4age is meant to be non interference. so in theory what ever you like and no contact. soon a s put bigger cams in them or thinner head gaskets and skimmed heads, time to start checking clearance
Try ehsaust avance with more boost...
Advance the intake cam and show the results please?
interesting!! thx !! what turbo are you using ?
ok I see in your other vids is a 2860 :-)
Hi
Do you use a oil restrictor on your turbo and if yes what size thanks
Yeah it runs one. around the 1mm mark from memory
Have you dabbled in the length of runner? Or even adjustable on the fly like Porsche did ?
runner length of? Have vids of intake length on both na and turbo on here. nothing much on exhaust side runner length
great stuff! so what LCA's are 'factory' timing?
Internet says : Intake: 108 Exhaust: 111. haven't measured myself
@@Garage4age thanks. I set 110 and 115 on my Mas. 4V biturbo.
Would you ever go black top head? You could control the inlet timing and have the best of both worlds?
Have something in the works, stay tuned!
Also what size donuts do you use for the ends on your manifolds 4” / 5” ?
Its 5" on the hilux inlet
I was thinking about turbocharging a 4age in the future. What would you say is the essentials to do to make sure it won’t blow up
depends on which 4age your starting with and power goals. along how good the turbo system you use is.
@@Garage4age I was thinking about going 4agze to start with then eventually turbocharging instead of supercharger and power goals, wise. Probably around the 220-300hp range for my kp starlet
@@Thatfordguy1973 stock ze will run those numbers. if upper end of those numbers and pushing towards 9000rpm. i'd do arp rod bolts, or cheap aftermarket rods. arp head studs and aftermarket valve springs. otherwise main thing is a good tune. Also dont fall into the trap of making everything small because only want to make x amount power. good sized turbo, exhaust and intercooler will make it easier and less stress on engine making the numbers.
@@Garage4age thanks mate I’ll keep that in mind
What turbo are you running, what is the turbine A/R?
2860 gen 2 .64ar
So advancing timing fell off at the top? What kind of fuel?
98ron pump gas
I have a question about a project I have it's a xr200 with let's just say lots of work done. It's 155cc and compound now but was single turbo for many years. I grudge race it and I have a wall at 12k give or take. This motor is sohc. Iv advanced and retarded it with little change to that wall, played with runner length, and reground a few cams. Best gain so far has been a cam I took meat out of the base circle and then knocked the tops off the lobes. I gotta check my book but from memory it's about .500 lift at the valve and 246 duration @.020lift exh is the same more or less. Boost just gives me the same curve but bigger. I'm at the point where I'm ready to have a cam ground soon and we'll idk enough. Factory cam but worked head it would run out of breath after 10700 if I could get power at 14500 that would be perfect. Currently it's a pretty big drop I see something like this on the Dyno. boost @30psi 9krpm 61hp, 10krpm 65hp, 11krpm 66hp, 12krpm 60hp, 13krpm 45hp, 14krpn 40hp. With my gears I don't really see under 9500rpm so I don't care much about under that especially since it's seen 65psi of boost already. Being able to stay in 4th through the 1/8 would speed me up some especially since I can't get into that much boost on the short track (front wheel comes up or back tire slips) but 3rd-4th I ramp it in hard. Thanks any help would be much appreciated. It's worth mentioning it's got big valves and the heads been ported with a flowbench for checking, carbs a 32mm unit, back pressure is lower on the compounds and the powerband didn't change up top much (picked up a few hp).
@9:01
What did you have in the lux before the 4age? Ln106?
ln65. 2L 2.4 diesel. about 3hp
@@Garage4age thanks 🙏
nj but wtf? you dont have the stout 22r in that thing you have a peaky 4age?! your mad! isnt it lacking in torque to move the beast? i would think i would want more grunt down low. nice vid !
Is fine. if you look at the dyno sheet is making stock 22r's max engine power by 3500rpm at the wheels. and this one had 2L diesel which was even more gutless 😂
You aren't related to Burt Munro are ya?
Are you running stock internals?
bottom end just has arp rod bolts. otherwise factory 8.9 ze
20v head on the na engine ?
Would need to be whole new engine. as valve cutouts and the likes would have to be different. I do have a stock 20v i can try some things on in the future though
What were the cam specs? Can't see them in the comments...
factory 232 7mm
How are you monitoring knock?
audio knock detection.
@@Garage4age Nice.
what ecu do you use ?
link g4
So in a nutshell, advance at lower rpms for higher torque and retard at higher RPMs to keep that torque in a variable system. For someone like me who doesn't really care about high rpm power, I'd just run fixed position cams advanced all the time...
what this doesn't show, If have a variable system. is a big advantage in idle and low rpm running running sub 2000rpm. having the inlet retarded to reduce overlap.
@@Garage4age Awesome I'll try that, I'm still trying to understand all this and the input is very appreciated 🙏💯
Where you wastegate limited to 12psi in this video? If not the gtx2860 should have kept building boost to over 20psi on this size engine.
It makes enough power to do what it needs to do. so only run it at low boost.
@@Garage4age ok that makes sense.
Hi! Which ICA/ECA at factory mark?
Not sure what you mean by ICA/ECA ?
@@Garage4age Exhaust Centerline (ECA) and the Intake Center Line (ICA)
@@antonpankratov2089 Have not measured myself, but numbers i have found for the factory cams are: Intake: 108 Exhaust: 111. which seems about right
@@Garage4age ОК, THX!
Is your turbo already maxed out?
Has plenty left in it.
Garage 4age would be interesting to compare bigger cam/low boost versus stock car high boost. Both versions
Make same power, but get there differently. For low power goals stock cams are probably the the best combo, but at higher power goals bigger cams should help?
Yeah only thing stopping me from swapping some different cams into this engine, is what its used for. runs down around idle a lot 4wding. I do like the idea of making more power on the same boost though, rather than just winding the boost up. means you have actually improved the engine. fighting less exhaust pressure is always a good thing. I may do a cam swap on it at some stage for testing purposes.
Garage 4age cool. Maybe somewhere around 250 degrees cams shouldn’t compromise low end power too much and still improve top end?
@@Garage4age has that test been done yet?
Without vvti you have to compromise.
The way I understand cam timing on a turbo engine is to keep them as close as possible without overlap if you have a fixed cam engine. Overlap is good at low engine speeds though for better torque and gas mileage.
Really needs to be done per engine. I would assume most cam manufacturers sell "turbo" cams with low cam overlap / recomended settings with low overlap as will work on any setup. if you have high exhaust manifold pressure overlap isn't going to work so well. If down around 1:1 ratio exhaust and intake pressure its going to work just like an na engine
Suprisingly, not much difference.
Only 7.1mm of lift - thats might be the restriction.
Good, informative video, great job as allways!
Thank You!
not much happening up top no. likely the tiny cams, more so duration than lift. big loss in mid range if not set right though