AE86 Ported head & Cam upgrade - Dyno tested
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
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Test engine spec:
Modified smallport head
toda valve springs
shimless buckets
approx 11:1 compression
arp rod bolts
silvertop ITB's (43mm)
Garage4age Header and 3" / 2.5" exhaust
Link g4x ecu
Kelford cams - 193c 298 / 288 9.5mm /9.2mm
What was wrong with exhaust that caused the dip?
Looks like he just swapped to a larger resonator.
If i had to guess, since changing a part of the exhaust system fixed the problem it mightve been the timing of the exhaust pressure waves were in sort of a, “wrong place at the wrong time” caused by what looks to be a sort of resonator since it was removed and then the dip in power went away.
An exhaust system built to make power uses the exhaust pressure waves, produced by the engine, to scavenge exhaust gases out of the cylinder and pull intake air into the cylinder.
Even if toyota made a cast iron log exhaust header for this engine, I dont think it could produce such a drastic dip in power at a certain engine speed like this.
I think the exhaust pressure waves were perfectly timed to actually cause reverse flow and push SOME (not all) air backwards through the intake causing the intake air speed to slow down a lot. Hence the massive dip in power at a certain engine speed and then a quick recovery.
I am no exhaust pro, this is my guess.
@@matos_x_I've been asking for an exhaust scavenging video for years now, he doesn't want to do it for some reason?
Looks to me like the long middle muffler was screwing with the resonance
Yes kinda as above, These headers run a choke point and cone setup. Along with the runners being the correct diameter. Its a part of the reason how it (and my engine setups) manages to hold onto the low end and start making more power through the middle with big cams. most are a dog till 6k with cams this big. but is a double edge sword and can cause some weird stuff if not terminated correctly. This is probably the worst ive seen, I dont know the specific science behind it. Likey some "bad" pressure waves from the exhaust and intake were lining up at the same time, causing some massive reversion at that point in the rpm range. This one is still bit wiggly below 4000rpm. but it wont really ever see that for its intended use. Also its not a thing at low throttle openings .
I love that you can audibly hear those torque dips as they happen
Finally some proper NA power. Thanks!
And people complain about the fa20s torque dip. Great channel!
yeah theres a reason why he modded the exhaust to fix it
Thanks for this 🙏 it is a long term value for people
i can see next video with self ejecting throlle bodies test at diferent rpms coming soon
Es macht immer Spaß hier zuzuschauen. Dann noch der 4age 🥳 Bitte mehr Videos und wenn es nur ein Nightdrive ist in deinem Toyota 🔥
Huge improvement, especially where it matters in a drift car!
Now i see why toyota go to the effort of fitting large resonator boxes in their intake systems
Bloody 4AGEs go hard asf
Brilliant work as always! And good gains to match the end result.
nice video. customer must be happy with that result. time for some new rings!
My initial impression was the exhaust was too big allowing reversion causing the power dip until there was enough flow to overcome it. The fact that cam timing just moved when it happened kinda proves that point. Then modding the exhaust changed it. So likely its just too big and too big too close to the motor
Cam timing will shift up or down all the curve, this is used in those cases where you have a large dip in the range of utilization of the car in the race, so, you start to tweek with cams to shift that dips as low as possible, this solves in part the problem and gain usually in more torque and a fatter power curve maybe sacrificing a couple of hp on top, but every engine is different, and you need tools like dyno and tuneable ECUs, now, that's my work, tune racing 4 bangers on our dyno here in Italy, but mostly peugeots and fiats, here, toyotas are rare.
as above, when running big cams with overlap, the engine becomes very sensitive to exhaust and intake changes. its no too hard to get the engine to work over a small rpm range. making it work over a big rpm range starts to get more tricky. this engine is actually doing pretty good it starts making more power than the factory engine from 4500rpm and goes all the way to 8800, (limited by the bottom end) and makes the same power at 5500 as the stock engine makes peak at 6600. ive have plenty other 4ages come through (not with my setup) and others dyno graphs when running similar size cams that dont do much till at least 5500rpm. below that being a massive hole. not many people share and show the whole rpm range. just peak numbers
@Garage4age ive never seen a major power dip like that in all the cars ive witnessed on a dyno. Ive seen where power kinda levels or even drops off a bit then start to rise with large cams thats a given when especially the exhaust is done incorrectly. Interesting stuff
@@garage79r Yeah i haven't seen a dip as big as that original one. it also didn't show up in the fuel map or afr. which is strange, almost every other case it would. wasn't a missfire or anything wrong like that. Seems to me it was just the intake an exhaust doing "bad" things right at the same time. my dyno does make things look a little worse with very sudden power changes. but was definitely a thing
Just Amazing 4AG Rulez!
Nice things you do. I share a lot and just ordered some stuff as support!😉
How good could be to have friends with dynos in their home 😆
I wait of update on Dyno runn
You really help alot before us imagination experiment or trying Abit
You just give the whole blue print.
Your video do help alot of people they don't sys even do I 😅 but
Your just awesome
I'm thinking to conversation 7AGE 20V
Custom ECU
I want it to TUne it to above 200 HP more 230 or 250 HP
Thanks for sharing.
Cool turd. Some years ago I considered buying AE86. I felt paying $5K is too much. 😞
Yeah the prices are crazy now. the owner of has a nice street car too, this is his drift beater. The engine bay and inside the car is all nicely done, just the outside is the original "seen some stuff" 80's toyota haha
ooft rough
Danke!
A banger video like always! Thanks for the effort💪 if you happen to install stronger valve springs anytime soon, can you please make a dyno video of the before and after? I’ve always been curious about how valve float may impact at higher rpm and if the added resistance of the engine is actually measurable. Cheers!
need to avoid float at all costs. the big cam engines are running pretty tight piston to valve, so any float = bendy bendy. if valves do float is usually a pretty sudden power drop, since cylinders arent sealing off
Very good job
Man, if my old MR2 gained 48hp, it might have finally had 100hp!
😅 didn't have silvertop in it did it? haha
@@Garage4age small port redtop with who knows how many miles, an untraceable misfire, that smoked like a cabin in the winter!
It was swapped, pretty questionably, by the previous owner. I'm guessing it was out of time, because nothing I did to it ever helped much 😅
I don’t get upgrading the head while ignoring a completely slogged bottom end. Just do it in one shot
not everyone is rich. may as well use the head instead of it sitting around in a box
Great vid good result. Where are you based?
Can you explain what you had to do on the exhaust and what the issues was with the original?
But if you increase the power by 48 horsepower, does that make the car less reliable?
interesting there are still some dips in the curve yet it still has massive gains. I wonder what that comes from/how thats even possible. straight up like this engine has a VVTI issue or something but this seems like a fixed setup. It sucks too because 2800rpm and 4k are right in the ranges that you don't want a drop in power. Are you sure the ECU is tuned right? not dumping too much gas at those points in the map are ye? I would be extremely interested to see this setup tested with a carburetor.
Things get sensitive with cam overlap. can throw what ever setup you like at a stock/ mild cam setup. The dips arent really an issue in the low rpm, esp in this car getting used for its intended use. also It doesn't do it at low throttle openings where you would be driving around normally. The ecu is tuned correct yes. in some of the testing runs it wasn't down there (3k and below) as its a lot of mucking around for part of the rpm range not too worried about until the final tune up. those bumps are the hardest part to dial in, as the fuel map needs to change as much as the dyno graph suggests over a very small rpm range, you have to start moving the rpm points around in the fuel map. turbo stuff making 3x the power is actually a walk in the park to tune, compared to aggressively cammed na stuff.
Always great material ! Keep it up !
Have a question on exhaust. Is the exhaust bigger in diameter at the front then the back ?
It is yes. But it also has an variation of a megaphone setup between what i show and the merge collector
@@Garage4age May you explain to me megaphone setup. Sorry i'm a garage builder of my cars so my level of understanding is moderate. Thanks
@@AntheonMicallef has a pinch point at the header merge. then a diverging cone setup after that
Tried any tri Y headers with true merge collectors?
A question for the modified 4age fans out there. What avenue would you go down for a street setup. a) Mild turbo on the stock engine achieving similar power to this OR b) keep it pure with a built NA. and tell me why you would.
0.8mm head gasket results in less than 0.3mm piston to head clearance? Did you measure piston protrusion? Would be interesting to know how much rods stretch.
Anything much over zero is a bad day with a .8mm gasket. my turd engine pistons were flush with deck, but is a non machined part on the stock smallport pistons that sticks up maybe .2mm that part had just been touching head when pulled it apart. that was with a .8mm gasket and 10k rpm. is thermal expansion to take into account as well.
Hi!
As always, good stuff !
Can you give us the rough specs of the G4A Header ? (Ø and length)
I'm guessing ~36/38mm ID and ~90cm before the merge ?!
@@ProjectoD77 35mm id. Going bigger can kill the midrange
Hi is it possible to show us what you do to the ports and the combustion chanbers. A porting video to get the horsepower you ate getting
Are getting😊
Care to elaborate what what you done with the exhaust to get rid of the dip? What causes the dip in the first place?
Can you tell me if I have 193c race cams what is the best headers to run in length and diameter or is there a series you have already done I can look at
Hello, since you know a thing or two and after looking at this exhaust. Could you "confirm" the case of needing smaller exhaust diameter at the back of exhaust ? i have read it here and there that exhaust gas heat drops -> velocity goes down with it and to counter this you would switch to smaller diameter pipe to get that flow back up, but is this a true case ? somehow i could see the jump from going bigger to smaller also cutting out velocity and causing turbulence in the flow. Btw love your videos, love the way you make them compact and also give us something to think about :)
Quick edit: thought to add that ofcourse these are case by case scenarios, but im just curious if this thing really holds some value in certain scenarios :)
There is a lot of wizardry going on in the first part of the exhaust, up to the end of first muffler. after that you could cut the exhaust off. run a 6" pipe or get away with dropping to a smaller size as seen here, and would do basically zero. mess with the stuff before that and things start to happen.
@@Garage4age I appreciate your answer :) Now i will sit here fingers itching waiting for new video from you :D
On a different project I also have such an ugly breakdown on the torque graph. What did you do exactly with the exaust? Maybe I have similar issues but first of all I'd like to understand what did you do. Thanks in advance.
oh now I can see, I missed the before after subtitle :D so you enlarged the front "silencer"-resonator?
The itb difference from silvertop to your 47mm feels drastic. Is that typical? When is too big, too big? Normal train of thought from club4ag days was any bigger than silvertop itb’s (or was it blacktop) yields diminishing returns.
@mikemikeyee good part of that gain was the runner length. I think the 43mm's will be starting to get pretty borderline . Haven't done specific testing on them. But a 40mm runner in front of my 52mm throttles chokes about 30kw out of it.
@@Garage4ageso no real issues you’ve seen with bigger throttles, only when getting too narrow that it could sap power? (Video idea unless you already got this somewhere?)
@@mikemikeyee if you make the intake small enough to make significantly more bottom end power, you will lose top end. but can get away with making it a bit oversized without loosing anything. going to a small intake setup can fix lack of low end / reversion problems with big cams, but chasing that on the intake side is not the way. have videos showing smaller intake runners. but not throttles themselves
If I had cash to throw at it, I would switch the duration split to the smaller on the intake/larger on the exhaust.
They always like a bigger intake cam, have tried it a few times on different combo's. easy enough to change though. only thing stopping the change is the dizzy drive. which this engine and my engines dont run, otherwise cams are the same
@@Garage4age Longer exhaust duration is for peak horse power in small range of top end. It destroys the entire bottom of the curve.
that dip is a mystery, does it have AFPR? can you monitor Fuel pressure and AFR ??, recheck the cams and buckets ??
its just the interaction between the intake and exhaust, when there is cam overlap. hence why no issues on stock little cams
Is the bottom end all AE86 parts, just with ARP rod bolts? Cool that it revs that high, or did you not care too much knowing it was getting a bottom end refresh anyway?
Yes the bottom end is stock AE92 small port with ARP rod bolts.
The bottom end should last, I will find out if it doesn’t 😅
I’d recommend going to a fully built mrp 9age bottom end to gain maximum torque and revs, perfectly balanced as all things should be
@@garage4k989 ah yeah lets all just do that. Infact I'll get 2 so I can have a spare.
@@garage4k989 ahh the stump pulling bone rattler
ahh u shaved the head so compression went up plus -even though gasket thickness to compensate, what comp was from stock head to new head? id be happy with 48 hp and if u managed to dropped some weight out of the car it be like a dream come true
The new head has had a bit of a skim to compensate for the material taken out of the chambers, from de-shielding the valves etc. I didn't measure the actual compression ratio, but assuming the stock head hadn't been skimmed before. It would have been around 11:1 compression ratio with the .5mm gasket. with the new head and .8mm gasket, would be around the same if not a little less.
@Garage4age have u heard of the qauliport valve arrangement basically its a 1 big intake valve to force a swirl in the induction and compression stroke. Im pretty sure it was the 20v overall idea with 5v i feel like your a guy that could do it easily with your skills
odd it has such a problem with just exhaust and runners. I think the cams or the porting wasnt done right
pipe tuning is key. Have seen lots of these engine not make it past 105kw with a lot more done to them
Any possibility of getting a k20 back for more testing?
@DimZin no plans to. But if someone brings me one to play with will do some vids
who make the 47mm throttles? looks like stock 20v that's been bored out and bigger plates installed
Hi, yes they are blacktop 20v throttles machined out for 47mm plates. A friend that ran a cnc lathe, done them for me quite some time ago.
Variable intake 🤣I was wheezing when two of them came off 🤣
He went to the right guy, with 174hp he's got more power than a BT, and it sounds good and "feels" reliable! For drifting that's what you need.
This reminds me of the white NZ 20v 2dr featured on Driven a few years back, but I guess there's no affiliation.
For just mildly beefing up an AE92 at a budget, would you recommend Toda underbucket or would "measure onc" with the Yaris stuff also work?
yeah the od blacktop will make some ok numbers. but most stock ish ones will make 130 - 145hp at wheels on my dyno. I always use the 1sz buckets, they arent that expensive
@@Garage4age My stock blacktop 20v made 135~ WHP on a dynojet dyno (and similar later on a dynapack) as well. That seems to be pretty common for them in stock'ish setup. 1
David Vizard is a good channel to watch if you wanna learn how to port proparly. There is a lot of bullshit around.
There is, that's why Ive tested stuff myself over the years. Also why my own engine makes over 220hp at the wheels.
Hey man, loving the channel! Awesome video as usual!
I was curious if you would be open to trying an experiment with the exhaust manifold?
I have been looking into how different exhaust sounds are made, and one in particular caught my attention - being the classic F1 sound.
Essentially, the way it works is there are 'steps' in an equal length exhaust header, which causes the exhaust pulses to split in two on their way through the 'step' right through the collector in which they are multiplied even further.
I have just watched a brilliant video explaining how the sound is made which is best explained in this video by Maisteer (linked below) if youre interested in a better explanation, and also that he has this done on a 4cyl engine which sounds AWESOME!
I would love to see you give this a try on the 4AGE hey, it could be something absolutely next level!
Thanks for all the hard work man, keep up the amazing content!
Video: ua-cam.com/video/vA-Z3ncTdUY/v-deo.html
His exhaust already has steps in it - That in itself doesnt make the difference that Maester claims.
The reason Maester's 4 cyl exhaust sounds like that, is because its a tiny bike engine with a super short stroke (Like an F1 car) doing 15,000rpm (like an F1 car)
He needs to prove the concept by getting the sub 8000rpm V12 sounding like that.
Does it really need more that 2" exhaust? At least about a meter or so after the header to keep the flow velocity high.
yes, lets the headers and collector section do its thing. It doesn't go directly to 3" at the collector merge.
A stock small port with nothing but an exhaust and a headgasket putting down 126whp on a RWD car? Gotta be the best stock small port toyota ever made.
How is the engine gaining 20whp from just and exhaust and a headgasket?
we were leaning on it pretty hard. adjusting the dizzy and cam timing for best power, and has minimal accessories etc. but yeah its the difference in power that matters
Hi im using this same setup exept im running hi comp 12:1 pistons
I have issues wiring the tps for the computer. There is another tps that i can use apart of the 20v oem one .?
what issues are you having? the factory 20v ones work fine on aftermarket ecu's. make sure you dont have a 16v one on there as the throttles tune the other way
I cant get online a correct wiring diagram for it or maybe the tps its bad . Thats why im looking to see if i get a correct pinout or maybe another one that i can use instead of that one
What was the reason behind leaving the standard size valves in?
@Sat_tyre cost, is pretty expensive to do it properly, by the time buy the valves and have bigger valve seats installed. Better off spending the money in other places at this level
@@Garage4age I feel this setup with those cams could have benefitted dramatically with valves. What’s your opinion on that? Also keen for some 20v stuff at some point. Cheers
@@Sat_tyre Head should be good for plenty more. I dont think oversized valves will do much for it, if you were to keep everything else the same. The cams sound pretty big, but they are stock shim cams. cams designed for the bigger area of a shim under or shimless bucket, are far more aggressive for same duration. which is what i would go for after sorting the bottom end and intake. I used these cams as had them hanging about and were the right price. obviously make some not bad numbers too. Its really not a big budget build
Have you tried 193b cams?
@gedas3419 yeah I have lots of videos using them. The "turd" engine ran them and is stacks of testing vids on that
Where do you get shimless buckets
toyota, from a 1sz engine
Does anyone know what wheel make and model are on the front?
Rays engineering Volk Racing Mesh 14x7.5 -4
The injection phase adjusted?
@droid199 on the final tune up it was yes. Wasn't far off
What fuel does this car run on ?
@@bradleygovender8997 pump gas 95 or 98 ron. Only around 11:1 compression
No vvti magic on this guy ?
cams and head work lower hanging fruit. bottom end thats good for 9500rpm plus vvti and it would be a weapon, but its not a small step
Guten Tag . Ich bin seit Jahren dein Abo folger. Aber seit neusten habe ich gesehen das bei mir steht das ich nicht folge... komisch
It's youtube
do you sell the G4A header?
@hemdatpersaud5312 I did a batch of them a few years ago. But not anymore
@@Garage4age would you ever consider making a few more?
@@hemdatpersaud5312 Possibly. I can't see it happening anytime soon though sorry
@@Garage4age in your opinion, what would be a header you'd recommend
@@hemdatpersaud5312 I haven't tested any of the off the shelf stuff. since i can make and test my own. i can say dont go to a big primary header unless you are only using 6000rpm+ and are making stacks of power
That's some of the ugliest torque and hp curve's i've seen. Could it be the dyno datalog?
Davis Michael Lee Mary Jackson Nancy
stock.ecu 😮
blue line in the graph at end of video was on stock ecu, rest aftermarket with bigger injectors