Budget NA build that works - Smallport 4AGE
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Building and dyno testing a cheap (ish) NA 4age
Final Engine spec in this vid:
193b kelford cams
toda valve springs
toda 3.7kg flywheel
mildly ported smallport head
Bigport block with 10.3:1 smallport pistons
Garage4age headers and 3" exhaust.
47mm itb's and long runner trumpets
Link g4 ecu
Gold paint
Help me make more vids, grab some merch: teespring.com/stores/garage4age
If you have been watching my channel for awhile, you have likely seen this content already. At the time quite a few people found it hard to follow the build up of this engine, since I went off on a tangent testing different things along the way. So yeah, have re-edited and glued the relevant videos together, to hopefully make it easier to follow. Let me know you would like to see the same thing for the bigport setup. As it uses a few different parts and more testing along the way.
Keen on the bigport setup videos at some stage.
Please, test 193cams with stock inlet mainfold vs ITB 😁
@@4krist ua-cam.com/video/c4keKCEa35w/v-deo.html I probably should have put it in this video hey. I thought tested it on bigport head fro some reason
Definitely keen to see this on the bigport setup.
Yeah, I would love to see it on the big port. Great content but as you said hard to follow and see the big picture this was great!
People can now see how tough it is to make more real world HP in a NA engine without some weed though out changes. Bravo
Just tough on a garbage engine. You can make 250whp on a stock k24 block, stock k20z3/a2/a head, stock tsx cams and good bolt ons.
@@givemefreespeechyoutubehitlers well that may be true but then you would also have to adapt to living with aids 👨❤️👨
@@givemefreespeechyoutubehitlers sure; k24 has 800cc more, factory cams have more duration and lift. has variable cam timing and is 15 years newer. you'd hope it would make a whole lot more power. This smokey old junker makes 170whp from a 1600cc, so 800cc is 85hp. add that 800cc to the 1600. my 2.4L 4age makes 255whp...
Awesome
@@givemefreespeechyoutubehitlers dude comparing modern engine to 40 year old old timer with less displacment.
Higher though at its finest 😂
That's the best Cam install I've ever seen! The effort that goes into these video's is huge. Big respect.
i have alot of respect for the 4age engine as ive owned it for 7 years with 480500kms and it still went like a bullet.
i crashed it in 2012.....i still want one again...no lie just a awsome engine
Gotta love ITB's no matter what powerplant they're bolted to. Nice solid gains with the lumpy sticks and the advance too. Hats off for some real world back to back pulls with some useable data/ plots. 👍👍
Memories. I built one back in 06 with the help of some good friends. Miss my 86.
Haha mate those camshaft upgrades will never get old... a little scraping can be herd, but thats allright ;)
Great video once again, thank you!
Love that you use a CRT as a monitor it has real old school vibes.
Haha. my other one blew up mid run one day, so out with the CRT & been there ever since
I use CRT for my PlayStation 1 and 2 almost every day.
@@jareknowak8712 Same, it's the only way to play them!
This is the kinds of builds I like. just straight to the point and not wasting our time
A little tip for small scale engine builders
Pop into your hardware or garden store and grab a small pump up garden sprayer or three replace the spray nozzle with a small hose or something and fill the reservoir with oil or cleaning fluid or whatever you’re likely to need to inject into small places.
You can use these to clean or fill oil galleries flush brake and fuel lines and possibly fill differentials and transmissions
And as you can get them for under twenty dollars even under ten dollars they can be cheaper than the devices made for these purposes that you might only use a few times.
Such a good video helped so much learning
@garage 4age can u pls do a build vid on how you made tour headers 😍
I really enjoy the camshafr installation...
Still one of my favourite motors. I've owned a small port ae91 corolla and a black top with 6 speed and lsd in an ae101sprinter hatch. Miss them both
Amazing the difference with cams made on their own. They don't respond as well on the 20v. Would be nice to do something similar on the 20v.
yeah 20v has bigger cams from factory. Plus you will find a cam of the same duration for a 20v will have less aggressive ramp angles, due to the smaller bucket size. even more so if convert the 16v to undershim/shimless buckets and use a cam profile to suit. so stepping up a cam profile on a 20v that same as a 16v cam on paper isn't really apples to apples
solid build! just reassembling a smallport after dismantling the bottom end, only to find it had a fresh rebuild recently!
Idea for testing:
Some headers for example go from 4 to 1, 40mm runners merge into 60mm exhaust, but collector tapers down to like 55mm or 50mm and then tapers other way back to 60mm exhaust diameter. As a choke should increase velocity and pull-effect on other runners as opposed to straight runner to exhaust merge header. Would you like to test this idea on different collector choke diameters?
Btw: thank you for this video.
I have lots of video's where i test and try similar things. even in one of my more recent ones with the blacktop 20v it uses this kind of design.
Camshaft insertion had me in tears ;) ahahahahha ! great video showing real evidence and justification for parts used, love it! Sub'd because of this video! :)
Gotta love the water bottle that's repurposed for lubing your parts.
Are you soaking your camshafts first so they flex? i just can't get mine in thru the oil hole in the valve cover no matter how hard I jam or hammer them! 🤔 Great vids as always! 😉
Hello,
I want to see if I can turbocharge a 4agze stock internal with big port head 274/258 8.15 lift tomie pon cam. I do have haltech 1500 still in the box . I am looking for 350hp wheel hp. Can this be done reliably? Any recommendations greatly appreciated? Thank you for all the great testing videos.
I'd love to see u build up an 7age and do few different tests
What i'd do to have a dyno at home.... my poor twincharge would cop a flogging!! hahahaha
Another 10hp with red paint though!!!! Gold paint is too heavy and would affect the power to weight ratio ...LOL Thanks for all your long hard work but guessing you enjoy the tinkering especially during lockdown. Would race fuel and increased CR shed a wee bit more power?
Upping the compression probably give a couple kw. I dont think race fuel is necessary. my other engine makes over another 30hp than this, on around 13:1 compression. this one is only 10.3:1. both are on pump gas.
Love from malaysia❤️🇲🇾
Easly 10hp more with Svarovski diamonds on the pistons.
Every tuner knows that diamond fits to the gold.
:)
I'll look into it if there is a V3 turd 😄
That timing pulley came of the crank way to easy
Love your videos . Seen them multiples times to understand that hat in want with my personal build .
Im stock on valve springs right now .
What pressure its recomended for valve springs on those 193
this one runs toda springs. i run them on everything other than the "HV" kelfords. which i run kelford beehive springs. kelford has another spring option that you can go with on the non "HV" cams also. but are a bit more expensive than the toda's
Good work.
What’s up with the torque figures? Dyno not calibrated, or is this turd the biggest torque monster in the universe?
Torque... at the wheels !
If the test is in 4th gear (1:1) with a 4.3 final ratio, then it's multiplied by that much
Yup as above. punch the rpm and power numbers in here wensensors.com/unipower/calculators/power_torque.asp to get the toque numbers, remember will still be minius the driveline loss since using power at wheels to calculate it. torque and power just calculations from each other along with rpm.
Very nice, good baseline build to do! How hard was it to 4AGE swap the Starlet? Simple because they have 4K-E/4K's?
not hard. just the usual custom engine and gearbox mounts. depending which gearbox you use. dont need modify the body or anything.
@@Garage4age did you use the T50 for it? or did it mate up to a K50 easily?
@@Doogleraia T50, you can use a k50 from a 3au, (ae85 and the likes) will bolt in. but pretty sure the shifter in different location. and they are pretty weak
@@Garage4age did the t50 line right up? I know some of the Starlets have K50's so in theory that would just be engine-mounts to worry about then if the bellhousing fits the 4A (unless firewall brings issues for 4A then)
@@Doogleraia the starlet k50/40 wont fit a 4age, the bellhousing is part of the gearbox on them. so have to use an k50 that comes from an a series engine. T50 factory 4age box so all fits engine right, but needs a new gearbox member fabricated or something modifed to fit. the hole for gear stick will prob need some triming either way.
I think a cool experiment would be to make UEL headers like for Subarus, I have also seen civics use them and they sound almost the same as the Subaru.
Any car will sound like subaru if they have 2 exhaust port atleast 4inches shorter than the other 2 of subsequent firing order...
Subaru uses 1-3-2-4 (short on 1 & 3)
If 1-3-4-2 then will need short on 1-3 or 3-4 or 4-2)
Damn those Supercharger valve covers are sweeeettt
Great engine the 4age. I have a corolla Tsport and I'm really exciting with the car after a leon cupra R and ep3 typer! What's your opinion about 2zzge?
Garcia Matthew Brown Betty Brown Sandra
Lmao loved the camshaft install!!!
One day i'll chase a 4age for a little car like this.
That engine was BEGGING for a cam upgrade! That looks like a bone stock vs FBO comparison chart.
I have a big port series 1 motor would i make more power with small port head with my 276 piper cams that i run in my bigport
Maybe a touch if both heads are stock. But most of the power differnce between them is the manifolds and compression ratio
Hey mate noticed your not using a cas but running coils how did you achieve this do you run a trigger set up on the balancer or what’s the go ?
Hi, Yeah i run a custom hall sensor trigger setup, that works far better than the factory setup. there are some pictures on my instagram @garage4age
Love your content. Your work comes up alot in conversations amongst the friends. I have one for ya. The orientation of the throttle body. As in opening of the throttle plate with axis of the throttle plate horizontal versus vertical. I've always wondered if there is some low end turbulence occuring in the plenumn.
You know what video you should do? Port and polish a head and dyno it against a stock head and compare the difference but also do a video of the porting. Same cams same valves. Been searching all if youtube for a video like that but cant find any, im sure alot of people would like to see this.
I did it in the bigport version of this video ua-cam.com/video/Ik7tK_zmZCM/v-deo.html
have you ported and polished the head too? I've got a ford 1.6 zetec/sigma in my car and I wanna make a bit more power with it, these videos are great for me to see what you can do with a 1.6 na build.
Hi , this head had been slightly modified in the past. check out the bigport version of this vid. i run a stock head then change to one that has had some work done
@@Garage4age Nice, I'll take a look cheers for the reply mate
Serious comment.
I remember advertising for Power or Economy plates or whatever the snake oil name was for them.
The alleged purpose of them was to help properly atomise and mix the fuel with the air to improve power etc etc.
They were usually a bit of metal that had holes stamped in it that you shoved under the carburettor.
I really don’t know if any of them actually worked but the principal behind them is actually sound.
Auto makers have gone from injectors that have one hole and just dump fuel to a wide variety of spray patterns and hole numbers as well as trying to optimise the intake, ports , valve position and combustion chamber design to eek the most out of the least.
What some people do when they port a head and intake is they sometimes without knowing it is remove some little bump or ridge that the designers deliberately put there to help ensure the air fuel charge is evenly mixed in the combustion chamber.
If you run out of things to test you might want to try different design injectors and possibly some kind of power plate if you want to risk bits of metal breaking off into the engine.
Hey there i'm not sure if you'll see this because it's an old video but what itb's are you using and where did you get them from? I want to use those on my smallport 4age and want to see if they'll fit if you can give me links or info on all the parts for the itbs. Thanks so much.
hi, they are blacktop 4age throttles. rest of it is custom made
@@Garage4age great thanks
I’m from Sa and I have a 20v 4age. I want to know how much power gains will I get if I port and polish the head. Can u please do a vid
It is ironic you put ITBs on an engine that said "SuperCharged" on its valvecover.
I own a 4age and a 4afe my question is how much rpm can I spin using the stock shim over bucket lifter. 4age is na and 4afe will be turbo . Looking for 8k rpm reliably for both engines
8000 rpm is no problem for the stock shim setup. Have revved them to 10k without any failure. but over 9k i would switch to shimless. they arent that expensive. Just make sure valve springs are good for what you are doing. valve float will make them far more likely to spit a shim.
@@Garage4age thanks for the info !
@@Garage4age also one final thing. What about the stock valves. Can they be used for turbo aplication. Around 350hp is my goal with the 4afe
Did you use diferent springs and retainers for the cam changes . Or did you use stock ones?
This head already had toda springs in it. stock retainers
So whats the general consensus? Small port better or big port better?
smallport is better. not a whole lot in it though, esp once modified. there are at least 2 different bigport head castings which are quite different also. i tested them in the bigport version of this video
When you advanced the intake cam 5 deg then 10 deg, that's at the cam so it's 10 deg and 20 deg at the crank then? That's quite a lot.
Very nice..30hp gain on a 1.6 NA motor is pretty respectable would love to see that same motor with some more cr haha.
If only all 4A sumps, scraper plates and crank timing belt gears came of this easy....
Why is the bigport block preferred to the smallport one? I thought it was the other way around 7 ribs vs 3 or whatever
Its just what i had hanging around. Bluetop bigport is the only 3 rib block. this one is a redtop bigport block which is 7 rib, same as smallport minus the oil squirters and external drain. It has smallport pistons, so essentially a smallport bottom end, minus the oil squirters
@@Garage4age oh i get it. Thank You, since I don't know much about this engine i thought maybe i had misunderstood something.
Shiber, use it!)
Do you think that building a 4A-FE in a 91 Corolla wagon is worth it? Asking for me, not a friend.
depends what you call building? NA probably not so much due to lack of aftermarket support for cams and the likes. you could turbo it with a low boost setup and will go fairly decent. Or 4age swap wouldnt be that hard since will bolt into the same place as the 4afe
in your experience does the 4ag benefit more from higher lift or more duration?
do you reckon using a 265/256 duration cam would give more power down low? i have some old hks ones sitting around... but they’re fairly low lift. i’m building an engine with 10.5 compression, and i’m torn between the hks and 193-bs for a street car.
duration. To a point its not really the cams that will give more low down power, they just get the blame for it. almost all 4age's ive seen with cam upgrades, will have a big dip between 4000-5000rpm and only start making power from 5500rpm onwards. but as you can see in this video, not the case, matches stock power then pulls away from 4500rpm onwards. this is due to getting the bolt on parts right, mainly the headers and exhaust. people also usually leave the cams dialed to reomended spec, which usually isnt ideal.
Clean botton end for 300k, amazing little motors eh.
Not sure if someone already asked about a 1.8 bottom end...how would that fair, is it a more finicky type of engine? Pro vs cons between the two 1.6 vs 1.8
Yeah lots of times haha. IMO for a budget build the 4a bottom end will win every time. you can just use a stock bottom end and rev it to 8500rpm. 7a will need to spend some money on it. will still suffer from all the same problems as a normal 4a. have seen plenty of 7a builds make less bottom end power than the engine in vid and also rev less. so smaller power band. better of spending the time/money on getting the bolt on's right.
Genuine question: Why do you spend so much time optimizing an NA 4-AGE build for such low horsepower? Why not build a high compression, high rpm motor for more power? Or do a swap?
This is just showing what can be done without spending all the money. 172whp is pretty good for a na 1.6L with not a whole lot spent on it. my earlier videos have my good engine in them. which is over 200whp still 1.6L
@@Garage4age at the time I wrote my comment, I actually didn't realize how big the difference between kW and horsepower was! I also didn't know 4AGE is only 1.6L. I definitely think 200whp is great from a 1.6L engine. Especially going through a RWD drivetrain with all the losses involved.
Hey I'm kinda new in the 4age engines but that's is an 4afe block ? Becouse I did not see the oil squirter I may be wrong
only smallport onwards have oil squirters.
it would be interesting to see what it does with short runners and the 193b cams
Your using a big port bottom end, with red top pistons ? I thought they had different size wrist pins?
Only bluetop bigport is different. This block is a redtop bigport
Would love to see dyno # and 1/4 miles time/ trap speed. Never understand what's the point of all that twist long header?
Car has done a 13.50 on unpreped track on street tyres @ 103mph. engine in it at the time would have been around 140kw. One of the reasons for the header design is to get enough length in the engine bay. not enough ground clearance under the car for collector
How do you find the half size radiator in the kp? I have been running one in my 4age suzuki sj but the thing keeps overheating. Any tips?
never gets hot. stuff in front or behind the radiator will have a big effect how well the rad cools.
Very good video. For NA power seems like every little thing helps, maybe lighter pulleys, idk what oil you run but maybe some super slick synthetic kind, besides a major engine overhaul idk what else to throw at it.
Yup, its all about grabbing little bits here and there. this setup would make more power with a cam swap. But was more built just to test stuff on, rather than wearing out my good engine. also to show people what can be done with a pretty much stock longblock.
Did you paint your nails gold as well?
Cute
No, I was trying to paint my nails and got it all over the engine
@@Garage4age 😁
You should do a turbo 4age build see how much more power you get out of it
Hey man, Just trying to work out upping comp in mine with the 193B in a small port with zero deck height, stock small port pistons and was going to run a 0.8mm TRD gasket. Was that head you used shaved at all or do you know your combustion chamber cc's?
.8 gasket all good to use on zero deck height. You can skim .5mm off the head no worries as well. Engine in vid was around stock compression
@@Garage4age yeah sweet that was what I was shooting for then I'll dial it in with the cam gears. Thanks for the quick reply, legend!
What dyno are you using?
Really great job!
Thank for your time!
'll love to see an unseen setup with longer conrod (better conrod/radius ratio). It's our way for making good setup in France (peugeot 306 2.0 XU10, 205GTI 1.6 XU5).
A longer conrod limit the imbalance between upper strock and down strock. less vibrations, less loss...
4AGE have too small conrod lengh (...making it's proper sound/identity...In add with valve uncommon angle).
A 7AFE engine block/conrods with 4AGE internals must be great.
I literally just test fitted some custom rods a few hours ago to do this.
@@Garage4age Oh god! great ... job ^_^,
While dismantling, you don't use the impact from the begining on the rods for some concrete reason?
No real reason. But always good to loosen stuff off by hand to get a feel for whats going on. if something doesn't come apart nicely you'll know straight away. rather than just sending it with the ugga dugga
Gold paint def carried the engine 💪
What is benefit of using the bigport block over the smallport?
none. its just what i had hanging around. Its a redtop bigport block. so is the same casting as smallport. not the early 3 rib block.
Hi I'm building a budget blue top I need a few bits and pieces can I email you a wee list?
I don't have many spares if thats what your after. but can try me garage4age@gmail.com
What new parts did you use, if any, for the block refresh? Bearings, rings, studs?
Only new bearings and arp head studs, just because can reuse them. The block looks like the previous owner ran it on sand or rocks. would need to be bored oversize to get the vertical lines out. So i decided to spend the least amount possible. 300k block with dingleberry hone, close to that on the pistons and rings from another engine. hence why its kinda smokey. It literally is stuff thats been hanging around in my shed for years. its done over 200pulls on the dyno and still goes fine 🤷♂️
@@Garage4ageyeh fair call. hahaha, fantastic little engines right. Thanks mate, love the vids as always.
Have you used a 40mm crank? I'm using one in a build and I heard they don't like high revs(8000+).
Have always used the late 42mm crank engines. so no personal experience with the 40mm. you would at least want to change to the late style oil pump with big revs
@@Garage4age Thanks for the advice! I'm planning on running a silver top pump. You should try a 40mm set up out to compare. The 40mm cranks are quoted about 700grams lighter than the 42mm and Molnar makes a 20/40 connecting rod so you can run small port pistons.
Love the gold block 😄🤩
Really great job, man 👋☺️
I wonder what kind of power could you extract from a peppy engine like this with a freevalve like cam setup?
probably quite a bit more. I recon it should make another 10kw with the right cam combo
@@Garage4age what do ya reckon the right cam combo is. Love from Ireland 🇮🇪 ( the real home of the ae86)
@@eddieconvey9223 Can go bigger than 193b without losing much if anything down low. but is critical to get the exhaust and intake right for it to work. I'd run the kelford 193c over the 193b in that case.
Thanks one more time.
Like the sounds, nice work
What brand of gaskets do you use when rebuilding?
genuine toyota
Can i use 193 C with a similar combination on this video ?
Yes, imo they are a better cam. I would have ran them in this engine, but had the 193b's hanging around. Remember the bigger you go the more sensitive the engine gets to exhaust and intake tuning. and harder it is to get the engine to work over a big rpm range. should be looking at some good head work also.
I got also a set of wiseco pistons to do a different build .
Do i need head work , valves etc fot the 193c cams?
@juancarlosaponte3528 stock valve size is fine. oversized valves need bigger seats and a lot of porting. or else will actually be worse. Haven't ran the 193c on a stock head. but have tuned a car with 193b on stock head. it made 119kw from memory. head in this video has had a little port work. i would suggest at least to tidy up behind the valves and in the chamber. na tuning is all about stacking small gains together. so dont expect big gains from just doing one thing. unless that one thing happens to be the only thing restricting the engine for course
love the Starlet !!
Love it. Have you ever tested the distance between the head and the itb's ?
Ive swapped to a completely different itb setup. bigger plates, different manifold and slightly different distance from head. it retained the same trumpet setup, as was big enough for either setup. was zero differnce in power anywhere
Yeayyy gold blockie
With a Link ECU, what sort of difference does it make? I have a 20v Blacktop with Kelford cams but its on a stock ecu with a SAFC 1 Piggyback. Wondering if it's worth the upgrade.
I tuned a guys blacktop the other day with tomei pon cams. It made about 2kw more across most of the rev range and up to 5kw in places, mostly up top. The afr was pretty messy on the stock ecu, rich and lean spots.
@@Garage4age Surely tune my blacktop too? ;)
@@DaSSaNcHeZz sure, buy a link hah
Can someone convince me of the potential of 4A engines without spending heaps of money in terms of performance?
I'm very conflicted on building my bluetop or just going with a K or rotary swap.
Thanks!
Depends what you want from it. na ? turbo? end of the day k series and the likes are quite a bit bigger capacity wise. so you cant expect the same numbers from 4a
@@Garage4age I'm not looking for crazy numbers, a stock NA K24 tuned will make roughly 250whp. If it can match that then I'm all in for a 4A build.
easy on a turbo 4a. 7 rib block and 4azge pistons and will go forever on that power. NA not so much, 200whp is getting to the top end of whats possible and pretty hard to achieve, esp with nice powerband.
@@Garage4age How about the rods? Would late bigport & early smallport rods hold? Since they're the beefiest to my knowledge
@@Loplyful Yeah thats all my hilux has, just arp rod bolts. late smallport / silvertop 20v are all good as well
fantastic job!
4ag FTW!!!!!!!
Please bring that hilux to the dirt drags this year if they aren't going to be canceled
If it were closer to me would be keen
Yea fair enough would be awesome to hear it in person that thing sounds nuts
Rotrex!
Awesome results! Any idea what the actual static compression ratio is?
10.3:1 maybe a a little less as has a little chamber work
@@Garage4age Hey again. Do you know the total length (trumpet to head) of your long runner ITB setup?
What's compression ratio on that engine?
10.3:1 on a good day.
Pardon my ignorance, but what make of car is it?
Toyota corolla
@@madhut3042 Starlet not a corolla
Really stout numbers for the little guy should be over 200hp at the crank
Close to 200, but not over. (190/195hp would be my guess)
Usually there is a 15% loss on the drivetrain in RWD.
@@ProjectoD77 Just to think about it, this is pretty awesome for a 1.6 NA
probably around 190 i would think. pretty hard to say, driveline loss inst really a fixed percent. still not bad for a smoky old junker
@@hojnikb and power to weight would be good..this little car would hurt a lot of feelings against bigger cars.
What throttle body butterfly valve size ITB used?
they are blacktop 20v with oversized 47mm plates. pretty sure this engine would make the same power on the 45mm plates. just what i had hanging around off another setup
@@Garage4age Thanks.
I planing put on my opel v6 engine itb, already have 46mm, but afraid it can be to big, but looks like will be ok :D
@@fregisz yeah will be fine, i run 52's on my other engine didnt loose anything down low over the 47's. if you think they are too big you can always try downsize the runner/trumpet. dont worry about having a step up in size when gets to the throttles. it doesn't matter as much as people say,
would you ever look at doing a 7age?
Not my thing personally. esp not for a budget build.
gold paint, most important part
Its the key
what trans is this
t50