Darth Sidious/Palpatine IS Not Invincible! A Council Forcecast Special
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- Опубліковано 25 жов 2015
- Darth Sidious/Palpatine IS Not Invincible!
Inspiration for this video came from a comment chain that can be found here: • Versus Series Starkill...
I don't own the movie footage in this, Star Wars is owned by Lucasfilm, Fox, and Disney. - Фільми й анімація
Dave Filoni outright stated in an interview that Sidious was playing the whole time against Maul and Savage
Is that even needing to be said? Savage was like a brute vs a martial arts master. A mace vs a finely tuned sword.
To be fair he’s kinda just playing around with everyone
Though I will say that there was a brief moment where Sidious scowled after Savage died, signifying to me that Maul will always be the better Juyo user, and he needed to stop toying with him, because he may actually get hurt or die if he continues to use his lightsabers. Palpatine then TKed him into the ground, making him beg as he was tortured with lightning.
@@goroakechi6126 Sidious also looked angry after maul kicked him and in a deleted section of the fight maul actually pins sidious to the wall with the force. (Though they fail to capitalize)
"But muh Secondary Canon Darth Maul YA book adaptation, though"
Anakin is the ball in a game of Pong
+Will Kuehler My enjoyment of this comment is staggering. Thank you :D
+Reti4 Well I love y'alls videos, so I'm glad you liked the joke.
Haha sooo true XD
+Will Kuehler what hippie ?
I know this reply is late but could you please clarify about what you mean
I love how you can feel the blood pressure of Sidious fans rising as the video goes on. Great content as always.
Also thanks for giving Mace the credit he deserves. People pretend that all he has is Vapaad.
I agree wholeheartedly!!!
It's not blood pressure going up it's more just the arguments were null and void. It all came down to "if you stripped him of his force abilities or if you nerfed his force abilities" well yeah, he's a force sorcerer and old. Any character from star wars at his age that is human wouldn't fair much better and Sidious was said to be one of the greatest swordsman of his time but yeah if you take away the force that's like saying superman wouldn't be that powerful if you took away his powers he'd just be a mortal man. Well yeah. Or if spiderman lost his spider sense and his spider abilities it's just a pointless argument to make and i know why they are making it. Because darth Sidious relies a lot on the force. But as said, that's because he's literally a sith sorcerer. He's not a sith assassin like darth maul for example. So he has no need to work out and constantly train with the blade.... Because that's not what his mastery is in. You can make the same argument about any supernatural being. But at the end of the day... George Lucas the guy who wrote the damn character said Darth Sidious was the most powerful dark side user of his era and you had to be yoda or mace to even contend with him. So that pretty much ends the debate right there. He's stronger than any other force user of his time except to yoda and mace which they can contend with him key word. Doesn't mean they can beat him... And they didn't. In the yoda vs sidious fight.. it was obvious who was stronger with the force. Yeah yoda was better with the blade, but that didn't help him win did it?
I’m a sidious fan only because of how stupidly powerful he is and his manipulative nature, but I agree he’s not really a fighter or a warrior, just a politician.
While I do agree that Sidious is certainly overrated, I don't really follow the argument of "Sidious is nothing without his use of the Force." That's like saying Spider-Man is nothing without his spider sense, or the Flash is nothing without his accelerated speed. It's not a very strong or relevant argument.
And Mace's ability to disarm Sidious came by way of a false shatterpoint, which gave him a very controversial advantage. Before that point, they were fighting as complete equals on the foundations of a provisional amplfication for Mace.
I think Reti did a very good job of paying respects to Shaak Ti and Plo Koon, who I still feel are undervalued, but they are no match for Sidious. Same goes for Obi-Wan, as good as he is.
"As I said before in our conversations, which stemmed from the description of Palpatine's style being "sloppy":
That was the original issue I had with the descriptor “sloppy.” It was not the appropriate word to me at all. Sidious can only be outfought by the very tippity-top. Just as Lucas said: “You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious.”
Why do you have to be Yoda? Because you need the speed Yoda can achieve.
Why do you have to be Mace? Because you need the dark side amp that he can achieve.
Why was Sidious outfought by Yoda and Mace by the blade? Because Yoda was a better lightsaber duelist than he was.
It’s a little bit more murky when it comes to Mace, he could only fight Sidious to an impasse, and only achieved a tactical advantage through a false shatterpoint that could have potentially never been there had Anakin not showed up.
But of the time period, those are the only folks that could truly give Sidious trouble.
I do agree with the notion of someone like Dooku or even Anakin giving Sidious a run for his money on their best day.
The issue here for me is the intention of something like this. What tends to happen is the opposite of the point. You want to bring Sidious down from his lofty position so you embellish. And in doing so you create an explanation, or wording, that is also incorrect.
That’s a huge thing I take issue with in debate in general. People picking sides when truth often lies somewhere in the middle, not in the stark differences.
Even as a teen, when watching Sidious get disarmed by Mace in ROTS it made sense for me (before reading anything EU related outside of a few comics and books not related to him). I always saw him as a schemer and an incredible Force user. Not as a fighter. But then you start reading some of these sources, and once I read the novelization a few months after the movie came out, and when he fought Opress/Maul, I knew there was more to him than that.
As stated before, it was only the tip-top that could potentially beat Sidious in that time period (Yoda and Mace). That’s where he is. He’s no lower than that. The assertion here, to me, seems as though he’s lower.
In terms of other eras it also gets murky. The movie era and the other eras don’t really align. But my own rule of thumb is that the main canon stems from the movie era.
And as such, Sidious, at the time of the movie era career, was the most powerful Sith up until that time.
+Antoine Bandele When we say he's nothing without the force friend, we mean in terms of combative ability. As Sidious's entire style of fighting is banked on his power in the force if you where to take that away he would have nothing at all, which wouldn't be the case with others.
In regards to the Dooku, Obi-Wan, Plo, and Ti comment, we never said that any of those people Could definitely beat Sidious, they can't (individually that is). But it is unquestionable that they would be a great Threat to Sidious. Like we said, If you gave Dooku, Kenobi and the rest power in the force equal to Sidious's and had them go challenge him, Sidious would be annihilated because of his lackluster physical ability and Lightsaber skills.
Sidious is most defiantly Teer-One, but he's teer one because of his power in the force and his power in the force alone.
He is the most powerful Sith lord in the films, nay the most powerful Sith Lord period, but thats just it, he's powerful, not skilled (in terms of upper teed masters).
The whole "You have to be either Yoda or Mace to stand up to Sidious" really only holds true in regards to Single combat with characters of the Clone Wars era and doesn't really make logical sense in the grand scheme of things.
I apologize friend if it even came off like we were picking sides because in truth such was not the intent.
+EvanNova95 idont think that dooku would be the best of a fighter at the time of his death without his force abilities. but in his time he would be a master fencer. PS rest in peace Chistoper Lee
+Antoine Bandele I'd argue that, accolades aside, The Sith Emperor/Emperor Valkorion is superior to ROTS! Sidious.
+Antoine Bandele I like your argument. makes more sense then most
+EvanNova95
I'm still not following. Taking away a Force sensitive's ability to use the Force is a huge thing. Again, I don't see it being a relevant argument.
It's not as though Palpatine is just a Force prodigy and banks only on that. Plagueis trained him how to use the Force effectively in combat and otherwise. Before Plagueis, Palpatine didn't know much of how to use his abilities. His training is what set him up for success.
+Shirley Peckosh
I think I see where you are coming from. The same goes for all the oldies of the Star Wars universe. Dooku, Yoda, Palpatine ... it was their use of the Force that made them so effective.
+David Stull
By way of feats, surely. But again, I never saw The Old Republic game and the movies as the same universe. The abilities showcased in both don't really line up with each other. If I were to do a match up with someone from TOR and the SW Saga, I would definitely choose the abilities that existed in both franchises. Much like Jensaarai and I did with Obi-Wan vs Malgus.
+travis smith
I try to make sense of all of this. Star Wars lore can sometimes be a convoluted mess.
+manc44lyyf
Thank you, I always attempt as much. I see the merits of being knowledgeable about feats, but I also see the merits of thinking deeper, using critical thinking to assess these combatants.
But these others guys all have their strengths.
Reti is really good at assessing one's tactical abilities. He's done great giving respect to Plo Koon and Shaak Ti especially.
Jensaarai is super good at analyzing a character's psychology. What makes him/her tick? How does that affect their fight style? How does their upbringing and their life style affect their fighting style.
Evan is good at highlighting many different types of characters.
I really liked what they said of Mace. I also hate how folks chalk him up as Vaapad and that's it. But I do think they miss the point of amp. It wasn't the super-conducting loop, it's how it started.
People actually thought he was invincible?
+Crimson Rain Some people do just like some people think Revan is invincible
He WAS invincible. But that was only because of Plot Armor.
+Ethan Wilson Like jar jars 13 layers of plot armor?
+Eric Dixon I have no idea why people think Revan is the strongest lol but is a shit ton of them out there. Even my younger who doesn't even much about Star Wars thinks Revan is the most powerful
Universe Traveler Because people played as him in Kotor. That's why.
It occurs to me, Sidious is a lot like Frieza from Dragon Ball Z. Overwhelmingly powerful, can stomp most people despite the fact that he rarely ever trains, but relatively lacking in terms of actual martial arts prowess.
+drksideofthewal Thats......actually pretty spot on.
I cant understand the british guy
@@dragonballtalk8527
Then you are a failure.
@@Ambulatory_Viscount he got bad audio howd i fail on my vid u can hear me
@Fatelyne ...
You're joking right?
No offence guys but I don't think even the three of you together could take Sidious
Maybe if Matt was with you
+DB6195 We were just talking and stumbled across this comment, we found it very amusing thank you :)
You are most welcome :)
+Reti4 You do alot of team match ups, so please do Lumiya & Asajj Ventress vs Leia & Saba Sebatyne
+Reti4 If your taking requests I would like to see the Imperial Shadow Guard vs another elite force user group. Or Terror Troopers vs Sky Rangers.
+DB6195 I think the whole council if they were to jump him at once in dark after he's done fighting superman with yoda
Palpatine even stated himself in the Revenge of the Sith novelization that he was surprised he could run without the use of the force.
I thank you guys for giving Darth Krayt and Cade Skywalker the recognition they deserve. Everybody underestimates them for the shittiest reasons.
BTW, I have a challenge for you. A collaboration between Reti4 and Evannova. Galen Marek vs Assaj Ventress. Two characters that both of you hate going against eachother.
And for Jensaari: Cade Skywalker vs Mace Windu. Battle of the shatterpoint masters.
brett2tt definitely darth krayt vs Sidious in my opinion is either a stalemate or krayt wins.
Assaj has an advantage in the fight, as she has fought high-caliber Jedi like Ani and Kenobi, whereas Galen fought an old man, an insane Jedi, and was handed a victory by Shaak Ti.
Goro Akechi He also beat Vader, you forget about that?
brett2tt
That was more so due to Vader having an emotional attachment to Galen and pure luck then Galen’s actual skill. He is no Vader.
Goro Akechi not the case at all, Vader only used Galen for 2 things: kill Jedi he was too lazy to kill himself and gather the emperors enemies together. Once Galen completed the latter Vader was all too happy to kill him. There was no attachment, Galen was just a tool to Vader, nothing more
took one look at the title and thought to myself.. "of course not.. he is dead"
L33t70mage not anymore Disney bring him back alive now
lol you thought he died?
Huh #rise of plot armor
@@ghostgamingxd7881 He still died in 9 and Legends did it first so...
@@fly672 He died due to MaRey Sue
It has begun! 3 Jedi Master, Reti4 with his Yellow blade, Jensaarai1 with his Blue blade and Me with my Green one have entered the Chancellor's chambers to prove once and for all that Darth Sidious is Not as invincible as many seem the think.
Thanks for clearing this up! I know I've asked this many times, but it would be an honor and a privilege if either you, reti4, jensaarai, or Antoine Bandele did Grand Master Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Sidious. I have to see that matchup in my lifetime. It would a GREAT comparison between these two powerful characters!
+EvanNova95 Do you think Luke Skywalker is invincible in the force and an apex lightsaber duellist? I know the ones family are more powerful than Luke but what do you think?
Hey +EvanNova95 what is your opinion on Darth Nihilus.
+centerofstar I'm sure they'll make a video soon as to why Luke is overrated too.
For the part about palpatine flailing his sabers, the creators probably didn't even look at that you really can't count it. Also really, some of it makes sense like he was not that ungodly powerful in everything but he was a great sword master. Also if he had time to secretly go to mandalore and kill two with, then he would be able to take time to train
The Emperor was never presented as invincible in the original movies. If he was he couldn't lose(by definition) and the conflict in the story would be pointless
Long term use of the Dark Side seems to similar effects to a lifetime of smoking :)
In a way.
MisterTutor2010 ashame smoking doesn't allow you to shoot lightning from your fingers.
Last time I checked, a pack of camel's doesn't let me shoot lightning out of my hands.
Fitsthatmean27
You need deathsticks for that shit
Saying that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith in SW's history, or that he's one of the strongest characters, doesn't automatically translate to "invincible/unbeatable".
There's a middle ground, he has flaws, like you said physically he's a fairly small and old man, and he's not the best duelist with a saber.
But the full package makes him a formidable opponent, since his saber's skills are good enough to compete with a master like Windu, and his knowledge, mastery in the force is second to none. Plus the speed and agility, not to mention he's a master manipulator.
So yeah he's not untouchable, but can be matched by the very best only, and in some departments only, like a saber's duel.
Vitiate would body Palpatine.
@@ThatDragonGuy
Sidious could be the most powerful Sith of all time but Vitiate is not a Sith, this guy is above every Sith, i consider him to be just under the level of a Mortis being. Vitiate would wipe the floor with Palpatine every day and especially the canon version.
@@K.J.R.Richard The New Canon Palpatine exists in a different universe with different laws, so he's irrelevant here, as Vitiate exists only in Legends.
Old canon/Legends continuity Palpatine is more powerfull than Vitiate, he really is. Not much, Vitiate could still contend, as they said, but Palps is still stronger. Considering Tenebrae to be on a level of force Gods is not accutare.
Yes, his skill of essence transfer went far beyond that of Sidious he could take the bodies of actual living force users, not just clones, and they didn't decay. He could controll more than one body at the same time. He also found a way to physically interact with objects and people as a pure spirit, that is extremely impressive and also out of Palpatine's reach.
But overall Palpatine is still stronger. His raw power surpasses Tenebrae and his range of force abilities is also bigger. He could create force storms that could devour fleats or teleport them to the opposite side of the galaxy not only drain life out of planets but fucking destroy them (and in contrary to what people belive he learned them years before Dark Empire and given that he still had his original body, it's fair to assume he was actually weaker after Endor). Vitiate drained Ziost, cool, that's around for billion people. Palpatine drained 20bln people on Byss, constantly for over a decade. He didn't put much effort into it, mind you, if he did, he could drain the planet entirely in a few minutes/hours.
Plagueis era/TPM Palpatine is much weaker than Vitiate but ROTS Palpatine is on his level, still below Tenebrae's Valkorion incarnation though. ROTJ Palpatine surpasses all of Tenebrae.
Dark Empire (physical and msntal strenght)
@@emzonik8851 Naaa, i'm agree on the fact that Sidious from Dark Empire is the most powerful Sith lord of all time but Vitiate stopped to be a Sith when he became Valkorion and this version of Vitiate is something above. They needed the whole Sith and Jedi order to finally striking him down (The Outlander, Satele Shan, Revan, Lord Scourge, The Valkorion familly, etc...) and they did not even killed him completely, Vitiate trully passed out in 67 BBY. Peoples who think that Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate just don't understand the character, you can't compare the dark side knowledges of someone who lived thousand of years, Sidious needed to transfer his essence to cheat death, Vitiate also used this abillity but it wasn't necessary due to his ritual on Nathema. Mate... this ritual killed 8 thousand Sith lords in 5 seconds, he did the same thing with Ziost while Sidious took decades to drain all the life from Byss. In conclusion, Sidious could have been in the same range as Vitiate due to his high force sensitivity, but the acquirable dark side knowledges of his era is just not something you can compare with, due to many destroyed holocrons after the collapse of the old Sith empire.
@@K.J.R.Richard Like I said Vitiate had an "immortal" spirit, yes, and he had much mire skill regarding essence transfer and podsibly force drain (possibly). That stuff is above Palpatine. Raw power on the oher hand, no. Like I said, Tenebrae could never eleport massive objects across the galaxy, Sidious could even in a weakened state (he knew of force storms before rotj, described him in book of sith, later he was unstable and the clones decayed faster every time so I don't think he can be viewed as stronger in DE + he was already the strongest sith in the movies as Lucas said so, you can't argue with george). The fact Vitiate existed for 1500 years doesn't mean he had more knowledge than Palpatine, remember that a) Sidious could learn much quicker as he had access to many sith holocons and artefacts containing knowledge about the stuff that Vitiate had to figure out on his own (i know much of sith knowledge was destroyed aftrr Bane but still, what remained was more than what Vitiate started with).
b) much of the time Vitiate spent on waiting/sleeping/rulling, at some point it is even stated that he eventually said there's nothing more for him to learn.
There is stuff that Vitiate surpasses Palps in but in raw power he doesn't + Palpatine also knows stuff that he doesn't. At the very most I could say that Darth Vitiate is below Rotj/DE Sidious and Valkorion is his equal. That's at the most.
And one more thing, tyat 67BBY thing turned out to be a fake rummor, it is clear the last peace of Vitiate's spirit faded in the recent TOR expansion.
Believe it or not, a lot of those twirl moves you see the Jedi & Sith do with their Lightsabers, are actually more than mere stage fighting flump'f. Anakin woild often do a maneuver where he'd perform a turn while advancing, and simultaneously twirl his Lightsaber in a circular pattern behind his back during the spin. Ending it all off with a lateral, or overhead slash. The twirl behind his back serves 2 purposes. 1. Turning your back toward your opponent-even briefly-is always a dangerous prospect, in *any* fight. The sword spin compensates for this by providing a rear defense, should the opponent see that as an opening, and decide to take a swing. His blade would be deflected by the saber as it spins. 2. The saber twirl, in conjunction with the advancing turn, builds momentum for the finishing strike. Making it that much harder to stop when it's delivered. Even the whirling dervish style moves Yoda uses, while seemingly grandiose & otherwise impractical, have their roots in many real-world Wushu, and Gung Fu, sword forms. There are even a number of Rapier routines with moves like that.
Actually the spin they do is to throw the opponent off. When using the force it allows you to see things before they happen like a saver strikes position the twirl or spin is used the throw the premonition off. The spinning of saber and body is used to create a different outcome then what the force originally predicts. Take the anakin and obi wan fight on mustafar the movie that is! The two of them stop hitting each other and moving and just twirl their saber in place multiple times and then all of the sudden strike l!!! It is used to trick the force and the opponent
I was literally about to say that 😂
1:00:00 Something also to consider is that the Rule of Two was created more or less for someone like Mace Windu. Bane knew that eventually, and with some regularity, the Jedi would produce a fighter who was superior to anyone the Sith would send against them. Bane knew from practical and personal experience that he could not face the Jedi on the battlefield or the dueling arena. The Sith would lose, it was just a question of when. His team had to hide and infiltrate the Republic and it's institutions. Ignoring the righteousness of the act, when Mace lead a team into Palpatine's office...that was a Coup. They were removing the putatively legitimate head of government. Even if it worked, the Jedi would have had a huge black mark on their record. No one would or could trust them the same way again.
I would also suggest the idea that Kyp Durron would be able to contend with palpatine
I think he has a damn good chance of winning. Like Sidious says, ‘we only use lightsabers to humiliate the Jedi’. His first instinct would be to electrocute him and use the force, NOT his lightsaber. Kyp is not only able to contend with Sidious, but almost surpass him on every level.
Considering he was potrayed as able to replicate NJO Luke's Force feats (with less strain i might add) and is a duelist on the level of prime Kyle Katarn and Corran Horn... Yeah, he would.
I'm probably misinterpreting, but when you started talking about Palpatine's physicality and his advanced age, I started picturing Darth Sion in my head. Like, if Sidious were to lose his ability to use the force, would he just wither to dust.
Imagine Thrawn brings a Yslamiri into Palpatine’s office and he just starts hissing like a cat while disintegrating into the wind
I WAS APART OF THAT CHAIN COMMENTS... I STARTED IT
+Sean Reilly me too. I was the one who started this whole thing asked a simple question "besides GM Luke, who can defeat Yoda."
+Metal Sonic I it was because I said darth revan and malak vs sidious amd vader everybody shitted on me and said sidious alone would beat both
Sean Reilly I made another comment and evan said, maybe i should do a video on this.
+Metal Sonic +Sean Reilly we should totally start another chain in order to get these guys to make more podcasts. :D
As was I
Sideous is so deep into the dark side that he doesn't have to practice his lightsaber technique. For the dark siders, it's like riding a bike. The more nasty hatred Sideous feels in a fight, the more wild and viscious his attacks become. All he has to do is tap in to the hate and blood lust and that's all he needs. Luke pulled the same thing when he defeated Vader except it was juts a momentary thing for Luke. Sideous lives there and owns that house.
Palpatine is one of those characters that just says “because the force”
Palpatine IS Not Invincible!
-proceeds to explain why he win in every battles he's in 😂😂
There is a difference between being extremely powerful and being invincible
@@Andreas-xx8go I know, funny enough he lost to darth krayt in the latest vs matcj
This was a really good discussion!
It's actually cleared a lot of thing up in my mind about Sidious, thoroughly enjoyed. :)
Leon Axel I agree
This is the greatest, most sophisticated, and detailed video which you guys have ever created. You guys are brilliant.
I never liked the idea that Palpatine was a master of all lightsaber forms. It doesn't fit his character; it's a classic example of what might be termed official fanboyism. They should have just said that Palpatine uses a unique lightsaber style that allows him to overpower all but the greatest Jedi.
That makes him sound like Darth nihl
I like to think that part of becoming a sith lord is at least becoming _familiar_ with all the classic forms as to be able to potentially teach an apprentice in any of them. Though mastering them all is a tall glass.
.......and with this video, i realize the depths of my nerdiness....
I chillin with this in my earbud while playing NHL and loving it. Great job
My favorite podcast ever. Very funny and makes very good points. Keep it up guys!
It's nice to see a video in which you guys are just venting your thoughts on a somewhat random subject. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy your review videos, but I tend to like one such as the lightsaber variants video and this one in which you discuss general lore better.
Excellent argument on Vapaad. If Mace been patient and wait for other members of the council to return as Siduous has to enact order 66 with reason or the senate will immediately riot and he will have a lot of shits to handle. Anakin, the mental Jedi. He is so filled with fear and doubts also he did not open up to his fellow jedis for counsel. His mistakes made the jedi fall and how does not know that siduous is a sith. he been bombing hints on him like crazy. Darth Plagueis and The senate controlled by a sith hint by Dooku.... Star wars really have so much loopholes
It does the heart good to see that some people are able to see what we are trying too say.
+EvanNova95 I'm a star wars lore reader. Mid-tier knowledge, I also do research and read about it.
+EvanNova95 Vapaad 's greatest weaknesses are the need of an inner darkness and not everyone can use Vapaad as some lacks that inner darkness. Vapaad also includes the great self control as controlling the flow of dark side energy without geting corrupted by it is truly difficult. Vapaad also won't work if the opponent have no dark side energy as the super conducting loop cannot conduct as it requires two components from the opponent, fury and darkness. Example will be like how mace windu use vapaad against grevious to no effect and has to rely on his other forms. Vapaad is a form of redirection and control.
Pretty much nailed it. However, while yes the super conducting loop can't be used effectively against non-darksiders and non-force sensitive, the moves and sequences of the Vaapad fighting style CAN be applied at any point. Vaapad is much more than the superconducting loop, its a lightsaber form with it's owns stances, maneuvers and techniques.
+EvanNova95 I agree. a much more controlled form of juyo. It is a highly offensive form with minimal defence. it is both phyiscally and mental demanding. Mastering Vapaad requires other forms to act as its foundation. The superconducting loop helps against darksiders and gives the user an edge or equalizer.
you guys and these discussions are a lot of fun, especially right now when i'm not digging most of the disney stuff, this is my main source of getting any enjoyment from sw. v good stuff
I enjoy watching the Forcecast videos, very informative and entertaining :) Plz keep them coming.
+GreyJediZ- 17 Thanks very much, I'm glad you enjoy them. We fully intend to keep them coming :)
These discussions are great guys
I have a very big question after watching this a couple of times. If the actual superconducting loop was only tested, is Vaapad that much different from Juyo? Also, I thought Mace did use that loop during Shatterpoint, which is why he felt closer to the Dark Side than ever before. I may have misinterpreted it though. It's be a while since I read that book.
Sheeev!!! One can never have too much Force cast, I eagerly await more fun discussions such as this, or the light saber cast, or my favorite the morality episode with Matt and Reti.
You guys need to start doing this stuff again you guys are all great in your own right but i love the collaboration
*sees this video
Me: This looks interesting!
*sees that its two hours
Me: Nope
One character I can picture contending with Sidious would be Joruus C'baoth. We don't see nearly enough of his feats to get the full magnitude of his power, but from the Thrawn Trilogy, it certainly seems he's at least on the level of Sidious and Yoda, judging by his feats and the way Luke and Mara Jade talk about/think of him.
don't think so. I think he's powerful but not on sidious or even yoda level
I joined you guys in mad laughter when you said "physicality"
This was definitely an eye opener. Well thought out and presented. I appreciate you 3 keeping things balanced. You were determined to present your case about Sidious not being invincible but you were respectfully. Both to the character and the fans. In the end it was obvious that this is still a character you very much enjoy and on some level respect so fine job to all of you.
But I'm writing Asajj vs Celeste Morne now
there's going to be an overflow of ventress
An idea cropped up while I watched this, possibly a collab idea? I'll just throw this out here and see if anything comes out of it:
Team battle: Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda vs Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu
Kenoda> macewalker :)
If it's during ROTS it is a good match. Windu is roughly as powerful as Yoda and Anakin is roughly as powerful as Obi-Wan however if you're going to use them in their primes Yoda was once insanely powerful centuries ago almost equal to Luke's power in his prime.
Universe Traveler I would be assuming that this would be during ROTS, yes. We've got the pacifists in one corner, and the warriors in the other, in basic terms (Yoda prefers to teach and Obi prefers to negotiate). Would be an interesting team dynamic for Anakin and Mace, considering they don't see eye-to-eye but respect each other's strength.
+XxZekeKnightxX Great fight. Probably Yoda and Obi Wan due to Yoda being able to beat either of team 2 and Obi Wan being able to survive long enough for Yoda to come to his aid due to the defensiveness of his form.
Thanks for this, guys. I learned a lot a hadn't suspected. I was under the impression that the Dark Side put all its eggs in one Sidious-shaped basket by pouring into him the talent, power and knowledge to master everything with relative ease. Thanks for the perspective adjustment.
This is quite a surprise but a welcome one at that. I love these discussions. I especially love Jensarri1's popular culture references. I would LOVE to see Palpatine vs Galadriel!
+Grand Admiral Thrawn There would definitely be lots of Yelling in that fight.
I fell like I'm in a Jedi Order were you 4 are the Jedi council and I'm just a young Jedi Seer learning from all 4 of you. I practice lightsaber forms in real life with a Katana and I fell like a consular sometimes. (I serve the council).
Your assessment is correct. I noticed that when he fought Maul and Savage Opress. When he first showed up he showed off his force abilities. When he fought Maul to me Maul almost had him. He kept Maul from mastering all 7 light saber forms and reaching his true force potential.
Thank you guys for perfectly framing this subject
Awesome video guys. I looked around for some other episodes of The Council Forcecast, and quite a few of them have some really nice topics. But I would also like to see some episodes about you guys discussing like what you said earlier, your "Holy Trinity" in the Star Wars universe, or favorite characters which are not Force-sensitive or favorite Sith or Jedi from certain points of view. Hope to see more episodes soon.
I’m so happy I’m not the only one that thinks Krayt is stronger than sidious
Tucker Coolman he's not necessarily stronger than him in power, but in overall combatibility Krayt is the better as well as a better duelist.
+Darth Wrath These are my thoughts as well.
Is he though? With the exception of shatter point and dark transfer what does Krayt have that Sidious can't deal with?
Don't get me wrong I'm not arguing that Krayt can't win potentially but he's not the most likely victor
Tucker Coolman dude. Darth Krayt is beyond overrated. Just like Sidious. Neither ONE of them could touch Darth Bane, Tulak Hord, or Vitiate. Period.
Daz Davis bruh. Bane is fodder lol
I think Jensaarai1 was on to something when he brought up Revan because he has the tools and experience.
Once again, it's good to see dedicated fans sit together and talk about their favourite universe, discuss interesting details and make some conclusions. And everything in friendly, warm atmosphere!
Thanks for that podcast, and keep SW EU alive further!
Thank you for making this video. The way Palpatine's character was made and the huge role he's played in SW has unduly distorted his image, and it's nice to see something to public bring that deified image back down to earth.
Btw, some candidates for future versus that I personally want to see is Darth Traya, Darth Caedus, and Vestara Khai.
(I know Caedus was used once, much appreciated +evannova95 ) Traya and Vestara might be to Your liking especially +jensaarai1 both being very obscure yet important side characters. Darth Traya, aka Kreia is from Kotor 2 and Vestara Khai is from the Fate of the Jedi series, after Legacy of the Force.
Sidious martial arts is as good as a low level council member? like Coleman Trebor???? lol
Nice
Steven McNally yet he matched windu who matched him via vaapad.
Yes and no yes he not good as windu Yoda dook obi and Vader in teams of lightsaber skill but if your less than them your being cut to ribbons
To me, Sidious is a man shaped by his power. His fighting style is built around his force powers. This caused him to be sloppy and thus his inability to duel effectively one on one with someone.
At 1:33, the irony is that when he's fighting mundanes Bane can be quite subtle and creative with his Force powers (i.e. making a Beast Rider's saddle fall off), but when he's fighting other Force-users he abandons that completely and just goes for overwhelming power.
Another great podcast. There are many people who seem to think that Sidious can casually ragdoll everyone, except Yoda and Luke. I'm glad you guys are here to set them straight. ;)
"Testicle forehead"
Reti make your phrase a shirt right now damn it.
+Alex Greaney Thanks for the encouragement but I somewhat doubt I was the first to come up with the term :)
Reti4 Still, I want that trademarked under you.
+Alex Greaney thats dumb
***** Lolno it isn't.
Alex Greaney yes it quite is
Never liked Palpatine, loved his voice and his look and his personality but hardly my favorite Sith. I prefer Bane..but that's because I've read his books about 10 times. The popularity with Sidious comes from the Clones Wars series, for a walking corpse he moves pretty fast. A lot of kids introduced to SW by it and he's their first Sith Lord.
I thought his popularity came from the movies........but I guess not.
I honestly don't like palpatine either, I felt even with his powers in the dark side, palpatine seemed the most cowardly out of all the sith I can think of.
Well the Sith are at their strongest when they fight their battles with hate and deception, secrecy etc. But Sidious took it to another level, never getting his hands dirty. From the knowledge I have.
I tried to read the Plagueis book but it put me to sleep. Though I really want to know what happened after Bane lost to Zannah or if he even did...her clenching his fist like he used to.
+Enzo Matrix I believe he died after his battle with Zannah, she killed and claimed the title of Sith Lord.
Palpatine fucking shits on Bane lmfao.
Bane sucks.
You could make a drinking game for as many times that Evan says "people"
Sidious is one of the most interesting characters in Star Wars. This is the most in-depth analysis I’ve seen on him! Thanks.
you forgot Starkiller Starkiller damn near took him down
I'll kill starkiller any day of the week
The novel takes precedent over the game, and in the novel it’s clear all of starkillers victories are either against low caliber opponents, or from luck on Galen’s side and pity from the opposition.
Tell that to JJ Abrams
Great vid guys!!! Keep up the good work
Thanks for the video guys!
Of course Darth Sidious is not invincible, Vitiate and Luke can easily rival him. Abeloth and the Ones beat him. Yoda, Caedus and Plageuis can give him hell in a fight too.
And secondly, Mace Windu was amplified during his duel with Sidious because he was angered by the Jedi was manipulated throughout and everything was a deception. That was how he managed to fight evenly with Sidious. Plus, Sidious redirected Mace's loop to Anakin's fear and in reality, Sidious was never afraid. It was stated specifically in the Revenge of the Sith novel. In his other duels, he never had this desire, that's why he only contended evenly with beings like Bulq and Grevious in a lightsaber duel. In short, even in a lightsaber duel, assuming Mace did not receive that amp Mace would never stand a chance against Sidious.
Just a question but speaking of Caedus vs Sidius we should see that. It would be cool.
+Light Yagami Sidious will win because his force abilities are noticeably superior, though they are on the same league. They are equal as duelists though.
Why do you include plagueis? Sure he is a powerful sith, but other than the book is there any other material on plagueis? I didn't think there was and they don't really mention his dueling abilities other than the assassination attempt
+Light Yagami sidious wins no doubt
+RadioactiveHaggis they are super underrated in these videos unfortunately, They have the likes of Vader beating Caedus and Yoda, and yet think Jaina poses a legitimate threat to Sidious smh
The reality is that Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever. That has been stated over and over again. That means all Sith and most other fighters in Star Wars loose to him. However, was he invincible? Well obviously not as he was defeated by his apprentice getting the drop on him. That really ends the discussion, anyone who looses and is killed is not invincible. He is likely the second or the third most powerful Force User (not counting gods like the Ones) mentioned in Star Wars so far mind you. Invincible? No, he lost after after all.
Great video as always!
As one of the individuals involved in that particular discussion, I appreciate you guys taking the time to make this video and give your view points. While I don't agree with everything you guys have stated I do have a much better understanding of where you are coming from.
This does prove a point I was wondering myself.
Obi-Wan could contend (given the correct set-up and situational things) with Palpatine.
I always theorised Obi-Wan, Windu and another Jedi (of the correct tier) would be able to beat Palpatine.
A testament of Obi-Wan being very able and a wonderful duelist.
If Obi Wan was vastly more powerful in the force then yes he could contend with Sidious. But it's ultimately irrelevant because he's not and unless Windu took Yoda to face Sidious it really wouldn't matter which Jedi accompanied him into the chancellors office because the result would have been the same.
He's not as sloppy as you guys think. During Rots fight with Yoda he starts off in Djem So opening stance and performs a falling avalanche pretty confidently, and then effortless paries and counters Yoda Form IV. Then when the fight extends into the Senate, what you guys see as just hacking and berserking is Sidious probing and trying to find an opening.Hes also block and countering Yodas attacks....
Point is, Sidious isn't sloppy. He's not. He's a free form madman of a duelist and bit of a glass canon but sloppy...Naw.
Sidious isnt a glass canon, that would assume all except for possibly Luke and Yoda are glass canons lol
Great video. Very enjoyable. I pretty much agree with everything you guys said. Very good video guys!
Great video guys. I like how you guys went back and forth between his martial skill, his physical augmentation and how without his strong connection to the Force he wouldn't be a particularly notable combatant. I see why so many like Sidious but he's far from my favourite. This does beg the question though of if suddenly every force sensitive had the same power in the force, who do you think would be the greatest Duellist? Based purely or martial ability with a lightsaber who would you say is the greatest of all time?
In my view, his dominance of not one but three council members, and his handling of Maul and Savage- which he handled better than Dooku handled Savage and Ventress- are some of the more dominant saber performances we've seen. While not invincible, I do view him as solidly above Dooku in sabers, and one of the top contenders in that area.
Sideous is weaker than Dooku as a duelist. Plageuus said as much.
Rewatching this and I found 1 point that I need to say, though it isn't a disagreement with anything you guys said. But you said that Mace chose the 3 worst jedi to go and confront Sidious. To be fair, they didn't know Sidious' skills so they couldn't have known that these 2, arguably 3. (I say arguably 3 because Kit put up a damned good fight considering he was severely outclassed) would be the worst candidates.
But that points to something else I said a while back. Why did the jedi go in and confront him like that? In poker you never let your opponent see your hand, so why go in, and show your hand? Go in and say "Hey! Obi-wan destroyed Grievous! The war is pretty much over, we are going to go party, and you are invited!" If you do this, he can't attack you because then his charade would be dropped. So this puts him into the position where, since the war is over, he has to give up his authority, or risk massive political blow back for keeping his emergency powers when the emergency was gone. Now you could say "Well Anakin said he would report him." And? He doesn't know if Anakin said a word or not. Heck you could use this too, go in and say "You know Anakin said you were a sith lord. What a joker, am I right?" Manipulate him back! Going in to arrest him was the worst idea ever... of all time!
+ArodWingfoot The Force is Strong with this one. :)
+EvanNova95 interesting
+ArodWingfoot Shit Mace Windu wouldn't need to manipulate him at all, just wait, wait a little longer, bring Yoda, Obi-wan, and the top 5 best other Jedi minus Anakin, and then arrest him if he refuses to give up his power. Bam done, with Mace, and Yoda Sidous can't hope to win, but of course always bring up back up so you can't fail. When failure means the destruction of your order and the Republic...... Just saying.
+ArodWingfoot Jedi don't believe in manipulation like that, part of the reason they failed...
+Federales They could have had Padme do it.
Will you ever open up the council to possible members? Like having guests?
Just one more question. How could Satele contend with Sidious but not Revan? I know I sound like a hardcore Revan fanboy, but I honestly think Revan could contend with Sidious. He is easily more powerful than Satele and his skill with a lightsaber is amazing, almost legendary. Revan was almost able to defeat Vitiate, who you said yourselves was easily in Sidious' arena. Not hating on you guys or anything, just curious.
Darth Bane satele shan is more Powerful than revan
+Darth Nien nunb No. Prime Revan has greater force power than Revan.
Rob George no
Suggestion that Satele>Revan gives me a cancer.
Maciek Ciepły not True
When it comes to Raw Power while Sidious passes many on the force abilities list not just with magnitude but with the variety he has and he can be tactical too with force powers unlike his lightsaber dueling. I agree as a lightsaber duelist in its truest form he is horrible but when it comes to the force he is a professional or even beyond that take his fight with Yoda the way he was using those pods to keep him at a long distance for a long period of time that shows that he has strategic use of the force not just raw power and variety of powers. As for Unarmed Combat Sidious would fail against most people just light pure skill with Light saber dueling. In terms of Unarmed Combat he is nowhere near Maul, Savage, Jango Fett, Boba Fett, Obi Wan, Mace Windu, or even Dooku in that category of raw skill. In terms of physical traits without the force even Dooku is in better shape then him even though he is well passed his physical prime. But in force powers whether it be raw power, tactical use, or variety there are very few who can stand against him.
Jensaraai reminds me of the numa numa guy in the best way. I love him and all of these guys.
Great debate guys, I am thoroughly enjoying (yes I'm still watching while commenting). Darth Krayt is one of my favourite characters of the EU, so glad to hear that he can stand up to Sidious :-)
olololol, reti looks like my ex gf with that haircut ,which makes me strangely attracted to him...
I don't know about this. Only Jar Jar Binks could defeat him. Look it up guys!
Really enjoy your videos. You guys should make another video modelled off this one that talks about how Vaapad does not make Mace Windu invincible against dark side users.
Shoutout to this video for giving Darth Krayt some shine
Question: Can Kenobi beat Palpatine if he has the high ground? A more serious question:C Cab anyone beat Grandmaster Luke? He seems super op. My best guess would be Kyrat but what are your opinions?
+Umesh Narayan The Father, the son and the holy spi-.. I mean the daughter.The priestesses, lord abeloth
+Umesh Narayan Force entities like Abeloth can defeat Luke, but that's pretty much it for people with a definitive edge. Oh, also Kenobi on a hill. How could he lose? I mean, he has the high ground!
+Umesh Narayan No and no. :P
William Henning Force entities can beat Luke.
Russian Guy True. But not any mortal force user.
Someone use Darth Nihilus in a Versus video!!! :,(
Antoine's gonna use him next winter.
I agree please use darth nihilis he's very underated I feel
Nihilus reeks.
I think some good suggestions against Nihilus would be: Darth Vader, Mace Windu, and Revan and maybe old Yoda
+Sean Reilly No he is not. Nihilis is a one trick pony. A BIG trick i will grant him that but if someone can resist that trick for only a few minutes he is toast. There for i say Nihilis is Overrated.
I was so happy when Jensaarai1 brought up Master Fay. I really wish she was more explored in the EU. But awesome video you guys.
I can't believe you made this video.
I have to disagree when you guys say that Palpatine was killing himself in his fight with Windu. Imo the redirected lightning simply tore through a mask he held. He could have continued to use the force freely in great amounts without dropping dead from the effort ( though like any other force user he would likely use up his force reserves ). What you're suggesting is basically every dark side force user has to be careful of the amount of power they use lest they kill themselves.
I also noticed how it was said by Jen early on that Sidious was a high level master of multiple forms and then how it was basically ignored before and after when it was said Sidious was nothing without his force power. He might not have the physicality to employ his skill but the skill itself would still be there.
I agree that both Yoda and Sidious are hardly the most durable but this only really matters when the opponent they're facing is on or near their level and is fast enough and skilled enough in unarmed combat to actually tag them which is rather unlikely. Otherwise most characters have around the same durability when it comes to tanking lightsaber blows.
I see you guys say that Sidious is not going to overpower anybody physically. Can you clarify as to whether you mean without the force or in his force enhanced state?
I disagree with the idea that Sidious is not skilled though I did not there seems to be some disagreement among you about this. I liked your example of what Yoda could do without physicality and I think that what Sidious would be capable of without his physicality would be much the same.
I am glad that you guys acknowledged that skill in a martial art or lightsaber form doesn't derive from connection with the force but that directly contradicts what you're trying to say about Sidious.
Are you guys trying to say that all higher level force users are going to be less skilled then a weaker force user? I disagree with this heavily.
Nice try Jen. You know that in the novels and EU Yoda is an ataru master that wears down the defenses and endurance of opponent with a highly moved skill set but in your videos you try to point out scenes from the movies about why Yoda's form is wasteful, energy inefficient and bad. Can't wait to see the response from the other 2 given the entire discussion at this point is why choreography from the movie shouldn't and doesn't matter when being applied to a character's skill.
-__- You guys didn't even say anything about Jen directly going against the entire point of your conversation. *SMH*
I don't actually think that Sidious's TK feats are all that impressive. I think Vader may even have superior feats in that area if you take some of his outlier feats. I would like to note Bane collapsed a temple on a Dark Side nexus Nova.
In regards to rag-dolling I'd like to have an in depth conversation with you guys about as it is an issue that I hold a unique opinion on.
Maul and Savage are nothing?! Lol wut. They may be slightly below people like Vader and Dooku but to call them nothing is absolutely ridiculous. The level of power goes something like this.
DE Sidious, GM Luke Skywalker, etc.
Plagueis, Caedus, Yoda, etc.
Revan, Vader, Dooku, Vader, Galen Marek, Starkiller, etc.
Mace, Satele, Maul, Savage, Krayt, etc.
And then you go in to call into question their force defenses when the only ones they been consistently broken by are high end force users like Dooku for Savage and Sidious for Maul respectively.
These different categories do not relay a vast difference in power. It is minimal at best and force users one category away from eachother are comparable when not taking in outlier feats.
I actually agree with Jen here on that training your force shields making them stronger as there are plenty of powerful force users who have had their defenses breached and plenty of weaker force users like Kaasim who have been able to defend against powerful force attacks.
Maul has no telepathic or force defenses and is incapable of blocking lightning with his lightsaber? Uh, no Evan. Just no. All force users have innate force and telepathic defenses and I'm sure Maul is capable of blocking with his lightsaber.
Kaasim and Shaak Ti being able to defend against Sidious is debatable but I'll let it pass.
You know where the idea that Sidious knows every force ability comes from do you not Evan?
Sidious being capable of Battle Mediation is debatable.
What are you basing Sidious being a crappy duelist off of?
I think some of you guys spend too much time theorizing rather then sticking to feats/facts if I'm being perfectly honest. Some of these advantages and disadvantages you come up with are based off of what you guys think are transmutable facts which just aren't true.
Oh Kyle Katarn can't beat Vader but he can beat Dooku? Nice Evan. Nice.
False Reti. If you took the 3 best council members that aren't Yoda and Mace against Dooku then they die instantly as was shown in RotS. xD
Are you kidding me? You guys went over at the beginning of the video that the force cannot make up for skill and then you directly contradict yourselves by saying Sidious's immense force power is what allowed him to master these forms. xD Do I agree that Sidious's skills atrophied? Yes. Do I believe he is as bad of a duelist as you say? Hell no.
Low council member level in skill? Debatable.
I do agree Sidious was toying with Maul and Savage but to suggest he wasn't seriously dueling at any point throughout the fight seems a little disingenuous to me. Maul is likely on Kit Fisto's level or above in regards to dueling skill and as Reti agreed with below, Savage is on a council member's level of skill. Together they posed a viable threat against Sidious which is likely why Sidious deigned to take action.
Again you're mentioning the choreography of the duels Sidious has been in. You guys mentioned how you can't use the choreography of a duel from the shows or movies because of how inaccurately they'd represent the real thing and then go on to use it as evidence to support your gospel.
Classic Form VII mastery Jen? Classic Form VII mastery is what Maul employs. A precise, unyielding and unstoppable offensive. If you truly believe that the choreography in the show is a representation of Sidious's skill then you should at least understand that what he was showcasing was not Form VII mastery.
Alright now on to the people that you guys think can defeat Sidious.
GM Luke I agree with.
Agree completely with Evan here. Yoda is indeed the superior duelist and Sidious is the stronger force combatant.
Because of Mace's amp. If it was normal Mace Sidious would have defeated him as he did the other council members. No Evan Mace would not be able to defeat Sidious or imo even contend with him. As it is with the amp it would probably end in a stalemate. Mace IS more skilled then him, Mace is not physically comparable ( when Sidious is amping himself ) or comparable to Sidious in the force. Without the amp it's not a question.
As much as I love Dooku he has no chance of defeating Sidious.
What makes you rate Krayt's skill and speed so highly? Admittedly I don't know all his feats but he'd have to have some pretty impressive ones to be on Sidious's level. Also aside from Dark Transfer what force power do you think he has that puts him on Sidious's level in the force.
Weren't there circumstantial factors in her fight with Caedus? It's been a while since I've read the book. Regardless I doubt she could contend with Palpatine.
Caedus and Plagueis are Palpatine light so it's doubtful.
Vitiate might be able to beat Palpatine but I'm unsure. I hear he's got some new insane feats coming out of the wood work which at this point is just ridiculous.
Bane is a superior swordsman true and his powers ( when amped ) are not too far from Sidious's own. But like the others he'd still be outmatched in both speed and the force which is enough for Sidious to secure the win.
Don't know about this King Oman. I assume he's a newer character?
Vader would have probably about the same chance as Bane. I don't see lightning as a huge problem due to his adroitness at blocking it as seen in the Force Unleashed franchise.
I love how you guys skipped over Revan. xD He would probably have as good of a chance as the other ones like Dooku, Vader and Bane but you didn't include him. It also kind of erked me considering you guys suggested Satele right after who Revan dealt with along with the rest of the strike team easily.
Same thing for Galen honestly.
Galen Marek is superior to Ventress.
Note: A high level master of Juyo is not a berserker.
Your council member scale is flawed since you put Mace on Yoda's level. :P
Dooku is Mace's equal. Both have weaknesses and strengths Mace's are just less pronounced then Dooku's weaknesses to strength based opponents.
Anakin is just below Mace and Dooku's level skill wise and is only a match Dooku when we consider the weakness of Dooku's form. By your scale he'd still be on Tier 1. Jen that's one of the most incredibly ridiculous statements I've ever heard. Anakin in no way is a blunt instrument.
Anakin is below Obi Wan? Anakin is in Tier 3? Anakin Skywalker in in Tier 3? I don't even know what to say here.
They wouldn't stance a chance against Sidious. Obi Wan might be able to survive against Sidious's lightsaber assault but he would be immediately overwhelmed by Sidious's force powers.
Dark Empire is Tier 1.
+William Henning I'm afraid i'm working at the moment so I don't have time to address the entirety of your comment. I would like to mention though that our stating that Maul and Oppress are "nothing" was ONLY meant as an "In comparison" statement, and even then it was exaggerated by the overzealous nature of our discussions when unscripted. Please don't take everything we say word for word, we are in the wrong when we make said mistakes, but I would hope our general intention is taken into consideration alongside said errors.
To clarify, Maul is "Tier Three" in our eyes, alongside Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Oppo Rancisis etc. when examining overall combative capabilities. His arrogance, emotional instability, lacking (again, compared to the best) defenses and limited use of the Force hold him back.
Oppress' capabilties are an example of the creators not paying enough attention to the lore, if he wasn't a "main character" he'd stand no chance against any Council Member, let alone the people he's routinely compared to. Reeeeally stomaching the whole "physicality and Night-sister bolstering" argument though, he's the lowest level of combatant capable of Council-level Combat. Adi Gallia should not have struggled with him, but taking that bitter pill, is the best he can hope to contend with.
+Reti4 I don't actually blame you or Jen for that. I know Evan has always had a lower opinion of the Zabraki brothers then other versus YT'ers.
I definitely agree that Savage is cutting it close on being able to face Council members though to be fair he was improving considerable as his brother trained him.
You have to remember that Maul as of TCW and beyond had a far tighter grip over himself and his emotions then he did as Sidious's apprentice. He also used his force powers to far greater affect dragging a ship off a cliff, causing an avalanche and hurling back hundreds of troops with his brother. I would say he is above the combatants you mentioned and closer to someone of Mace's level.
To be fair they kept Savage pretty consistent with force feats actually. He's essentially a force users of immense power that cannot really control it as shown when he hurled back hundreds of troops and overwhelmed the defenses of both Anakin and Obi Wan and Dooku and Ventress's force defenses simultaneously.
In dueling he was consistently a brute but a brute with the potential for refined combat as he was able to duel evenly with Ventress and Obi Wan in a brief engagement In the show and in the comics he was improving considerably as he faced and defeated Plo Koon by taking advantage of one of the Jedi master's weaknesses. He even managed to hold his own against Sidious in conjunction with his brother. Great strides indeed.
In the end he was able to overpower Adi, take advantage of one of Koon's weaknesses, contend with Sidious alongside his brother and do well against both Ventress and Obi Wan. A pretty impressive roster for a mere brute.
This is a link to a respect thread a good friend of mine made for Maul.
www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-maul-respect-thread-1549405/
+William Henning Part II of my response to this video listed below.
Savage is on the level he is for multiple reasons.
Anakin could perhaps match or even surpass Oppress in strength.
I'm glad you brought up Sidious's battle against DE Luke. It's a good supporting point to your overall argument of Sidious being not as skilled as high tier fighters.
Overall I disagree completely with your council rating system. To be completely blunt it's mostly wrong and out of order.
Nice Evan showing your bias against the Zabrak brothers yet again. Maul could beat every single one of the characters you mentioned. Debate me if you disagree.
+William Henning
IKR? The Revan part got to me too. "Revan putting up a fight against Sidious for an existing possibility of a victory? Naw. Sateele, who's drastically below Revan putting up a fight against Sidious? Yes."
Desolator Storm That was probably one of the worst moments along with the underrating of Maul and Savage.
Hmmm. I'd now like to see a Darth Sidious vs. Darth Krayt match UNLESS it's already been done?
+FirebirdPhoenix87 Darth Sidious beats Bane. Darth Krayt BARELY beats Bane.
+Christian Dauz No Hett schools Bane. Shatterpoint/Dark Transfer, plus he's way more skilled than anyone Bane has fought, and Bane has a shit track record against Jar'kai users.
Palpatine kills Hett.
I'm a Krayt fanboy, I'm still waiting for a Vader vs Krayt (both Clone Wars era Jedi, from tatooine, fell to the dark side)...
+Mike Tike I agree Krayt beats Bane but it would be very close, just watch evannovas video on bane vs krayt.
Krayt beats sidious because he's the perfect counter to sidious as it was explained in the video. Bane has a bad track record against jar kai users only in path of destruction because kasim purposely taught him nothing about how to deal with it, bane fixed that by the next book. Jar kai is weak against Djem so because the user only has one hand on each blade making it hard to deal with the power attacks djem so regularly uses ,especially form someone as strong as Bane.
I doubt Krayt would beat Bane. It would be a good fight but Bane is superior
Great video Guys! More of that! :) Perhaps some speculation on Luke in the coming trilogy?
Wow just wow Counci Forcecast not going to lie, I was absolutely speechless throughout this entire video. Thanks to this video I will never look at Sidious the same way again. This video has opened my eyes in so many ways in looking at light saber combat and force powers in new ways. I was speechless the whole time because of the amazing anylising you all did in this video. I wish we had UA-cam awards, I would nominate you guys for the award of best picture. I'll be honest I really don't like the fact that a few sith such as Krayt (you guys are absolutely right in saying only the very best can stand against him) could be Palpatine. Please believe me when I say I don't mean to come across as childish as you all made extreamely great arguments that I can't argue with and really don't plan to, because all the examples in this video are stop on, it's just that in my opinion no one should be able to beat Sidious except Luke Skywalker as he is the equivalent of the light incarnated and only the incarnation of the light can beat the incarnation of the dark. I want to stress very much that I don't mean to come across as childish as you all 3 made it absolutely clear that having limitations does not diminish a charecter, and I absolutely 100% could not agree with you more as in my opinion a charecter with limits makes engagements with opponents more exciting and relatable (though I cannot connect with the emporror in any way). I personally want to say that your all's brains are to big for your head and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for letting me see Star Wars in a new way. That's what I like about the councilforcecast, you all inspire people to explore Star Wars, and just when I think I know everything about the galaxy far far away you guys continue to blow my mind. This video certainly took allot of time to make and I appreciate all the effort you guys put into this video to make it the way it is. Reti4, Evannova95, Jenssarai, this video is the definition of spectacular. 😀😀😀
Mace Windu schooling him in their lightsaber duel is enough evidence that Sidious isn't invincible.
Do a Lord of The Rings versus series...
Great The Warlord PLEASE!!!
When you were talking about low-level council members, got me thinking about Attack of the Clones. Did Coleman Trebor die to show the vulnerability of the Jedi or the might of Jango Fett?
Ooh yeah Galen Marek versus Asajj Ventress! I look forward to that video :-)
+Darth “Niman” Arkeskou It's one I also eagerly anticipate. Jen's analysis of Marek is always interesting, and it's about time he was firmly placed on the level he actually is, rather than the one everyone seems to think he occupies.
+Reti4 I never read the Force Unleashed novel so I only experienced the overrated game version of Galen (I too look forward to Jensaarai's analysis of the character). You, Jensaarai, Evan, Antoine and GreyJedi91 are all amazing at these videos, each of you have your own strengths in analysing and coming up with a non-biased outcome on whatever characters you use. I'm still looking forward to that Ahsoka Tano versus Bultar Swan video Reti4 ;-)
darth krayt would pombell sidous
I couldn't more disagree with most of you. First off been a sw fan scince it came out in 77'.Read most the novels. Although I don't count the Eu,I've followed it enough. I'm also what you would call a master in several martial art disciplines. My opinion is just my opinion but I do think it carries some weight in regards to judging combat ,practicality.Been doing that over 39 years .So now I've gotten that out of the way. Is Sidious invincible? I'll say this. In my opinion he's as close to invincible as there is in the sw universe? Exceptional duelist like Dooku thought of his master as 'unbeatable '(in rots novel).It also said Sidious ability may pale the darkside itself him being a black hole in the force. Vader,no slouch himself had a healthy respect for the emperor and his dueling abilty. In fact he knew he needed someone powerful to take him down .I think Sidious looked down on dueling compared to the raw ability of compared to using the force. If he put all his energies into dueling like say Dooku or Windu. Skill wise no one would be better technically then he is. He's on par dueling wise with any of them. I don't see anyone really being better. Close? I see probably 3 who stood a chance when the emperor isn't playing his games . Also Anakin is a 9 when you compared them at the end. Nick Gillard who plays Cin Drilllag btw,choreographed most of the duels. He Rated Anakin a 9 as a jedi.Quite possible a 10 as Vader. His arrogance was his undoing. I digress. The other ones I agree more or less. Just my opinions.
I mention Nick Gillard because he of course worked close with Lucas so I'm sure he got the ideas ,ratings from the man who created it himself. He'd have a really good idea of who Is who abilty wise vs speculation.
What marital arts are you a black belt, or master in?
800mEric TKD, Kenpo,Goju. Sifu in WC and Jkd over 30 years experience. Yourself?
You right about dueling improve.. I'm just imaging how the Jedi masters doomedly threw their sabers before him if Darth Sidious combined Trakata with his ultimate speed and telekinetic might..
But how badass was Darth Plagueis if Palpatine never dared to challenge him with swords even with the support of Darth Maul?..
Just imagine, if the sidious fight was maces vaapad test run, just how capable and experienced mace would have been with vaapad if he had lived in an era with lots of powerful Sith Lords existing simultaneously ala SWTOR
Absolutely wonderful video, and sums up quite well why Palpatine can be defeated in some cases. You made your points incredibly well and due to what was in character for Palpatine though I only have two things to say about people that could contend with him.
You put Satele Shan in the contending category but brushed off Revan why? If you look at Revan after his rebirth he absolutely ragdolls Satele and multiple others with ease while controlling the weather. Even with just the Revan novel when he claims himself to be Revan reborn he was only a notch lower than Vitiate still contending with him. Along with his skills in lightsaber combat I think he could contend with Sidious in not only Lightsaber combat but Force power. Not saying that he'd win, but with a small possibility.
Second is on the subject of Jacen Solo. So many people count him as weaker than Jaina Solo or inferior low balling him especially on his fighting form. Think of it this way, you say he is a Plagueis level duelist but he can contend with Jaina Solo, Kyle Katarn and two other knights, and even put up a hell of a fight against Luke. He was even stated to have speed that made Kyle look like a child which to remind you Kyle crossed was it hundreds or thousands of meters in a span of seconds? Bat anyways his speed would've been on par with Luke during his Dark Empire days as he stated Jacen was just as fast as Sidious if not faster. Which no that does not grant him the edge. His fighting form is niman but he has shown skill in it so much so that while being surprised by three jedi one of them being Katarn he still came out on top. He uses his environment to his advantage! If anything this is something in his favor that most other jedi/Sith don't do. Jacen can and will do anything to win. With most of his fights during his time as a Sith coming from him being caught off guard which he still came out on top. How is using the environment to your advantage make you worse than another lightsaber duelist? Would you say it makes Satele a bad duelist because she used a tree to temporarily break herself from Malgus?
U should make Grandmaster Luke is not invincible
I haven't read those books, mainly because there aren't those books in VN (damn it). But let me guess, in that series, Luke fought, defeated Abeloth, right?
+Jakub Basically. There are forums that say GM Luke is powerful enough to solo the HST.
***** Its kinda like Sidious (only less). A couple can contend and have a chance at pulling it off, but its not likely.
I always disliked the skywalkers there just so strong in the force even third generation are rediciliously powerful
Of course they wouldn't. Evan has a hard-on for GM Luke.