10 Signs of Vindictive Narcissism
- Опубліковано 29 тра 2023
- This video answers the questions: What are the signs of vindictive narcissism
Narcissism? Is vindictive narcissism a type of narcissism?
There are two types of narcissism: With grandiose narcissism we see characteristics like being extroverted, socially bold, self-confident, having a superficial charm, being resistant to criticism, and being callous and unemotional. Vulnerable narcissism is characterized by shame, anger, aggression, hypersensitivity, a tendency to be introverted, defensive, avoidant, anxious, depressed, socially awkward, and shy.
Narcissistic personality disorder:
This is a disorder listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). The definition for this disorder contains nine symptom criteria, five of which are required for diagnosis.
1. A grandiose sense of self-importance
2. preoccupation with exaggerated fantasies of success, power, and beauty
3. believing oneself to be special or unique
4. requiring excessive admiration
5. having a sense of entitlement
6. manipulating others interpersonally
7. lacking empathy
8. being envious of others
9. being arrogant, pretentious, or supercilious
Kealy, D., & Ogrodniczuk, J. S. (2011). Narcissistic Interpersonal Problems in Clinical Practice. Harvard Review of Psychiatry (Taylor & Francis Ltd), 19(6), 290-301.
Wang, Q., Bowling, N. A., Tian, Q., Alarcon, G. M., & Kwan, H. K. (2018). Workplace harassment intensity and revenge: Mediation and moderation effects. Journal of Business Ethics, 151(1), 213-234.
Boon, S. D., Rasmussen, K. R., Deveau, V. L., & Alibhai, A. M. (2017). Resisting revenge: An investigation of reasons for foregoing revenge in romantic relationships. Personal Relationships, 24(3), 474-490.
Support Dr. Grande on Patreon:
КОМЕНТАРІ • 1 865
I was married to a vindictive narcissist for 36 years. It took me a long time to realize what he was, I just knew how miserable I was. I’ve been divorced for 2 years and I feel released from a prison.
Would you have stayed with a nice guy for 36 years ?
I don't know how their relationships last...I had one that kept bringing up something small that happened 10 years ago and still punishing me for it. Its been months I haven't seen him... since February 2022
I'm just sorry it took you 36 years!!!
@Blackwell Brooklyn If he were nice, I'm sure she would still be married. There are people that take their marriage vows seriously and if there are children involved, it changes things.
Some examples of vindictiveness include witholding time, resources, patience, refusal to help, the feeling that they are entitled to railroad the rights of others, disregard for family members feelings and selfishness.
Krissi Berry sound like a narcissist wrote this. Read that five times and if you can't understand narc. Okay. Never debate or attempt to with a narcissist...
@Pvt. Rickert some people have narcs in their immediate families.
Wow. It sounds as if you are one of my brothers or sister. The one that thinks as I do knows how I feel. My brothers are daft and my mother is busy deystroying them and their families.
Been there and done that cant do it anymore, ever again.
Oh, fuck. Crude as it is, this sounds like me. I'll admit it, I'm so emotionally distant from my family that they're like strangers to me, and I don't feel inclined to be there for them at all. Still, I don't like being hated, so I'll stick by to stave that off. What a strange mental disorder; I knew I was self-centered, but I never realized what a problem it is.
If I return to the level of no more weapons involved, then either as the victor, or as one vengeful old man. No offence, but soft cases are NOT the norm!
I lived with a vindictive narcissist. Document the pattern to allow you to understand the vindictive behavior. For example, accidentally breaking your belongings, staged accidents, staged arguments, passive aggressive behavior, intentionally wreaking your car, hiding your items and later returning (or not). Eventually, you and others recognize the vindictive pattern. Can you talk about the social ineffectiveness (i.e., jobs; working) of the vindictive narcissist? The vindictive narcissist I know, never learn from mistakes. They repeat the same maladaptive behavioral loop with same self-sabotaging social outcome.
Oh by the way you can't take the car tomorrow for work I need it! Telling me he went to my new job and told everybody who I am! Accidentally breaking some of my favorite dishes!
@RPM man, everything in your comment is just right on the mark 🎯
Yes OMG everyday i steal her phone or her sim card e.t.c one morning i can Recall waking up to my land lady screaming at me about her phone. She took my laptop and hurled it at
My head like she was playing disc golf.( i later found our she could’ve went pro 10 years ago) she was going for one of my technic turntable’s i grabbed her and pushed her out of my studio. She preceded to call me every name in the book then told me she was calling the cops and telling them i hit her. As she is standing on front porch calling them. I ask her if i stole your phone how are you calling the cops.😆 she did not think that was funny went over to her side of the double to wait for them(never live next door to your landlady).When they showed up she was pretty rude to them and after talking to me they had a prettu good grasp of the situation. I can’t tell you how many more times this scenario has happened because I’m still in the process of leaving this crazy 2 year stint in this emotional trap house of horrors. At least another 50 to 60 times snd varying degrees of severity. She was always shooting her nose off to spite her face as they say. Truly awful behavior non stop accusations and near constant fear of someone is out to get them usually a mutual aquatints. Their revenge fantasy’s are often like a cartoon like a road runner cartoon and of course she was always the road runner lol. Anyways the good doctor nails it again solid stuff here.
omg I'm dealing with one right now and I swear I think I'm losing my mind at times because I know it is him taking my belongings because one minute they are there and the next they are not. Now can you be a vindictive narcissist as well as a covert narcissist?
@Kerry Hernandez get yourself some sparkles put them around some of your things on purpose like a journal... sparkles never lie they'll be all over his face! It works try to get white sparkles if possible you'll know whether or not he touched your things don't confront him at first let it allow it to happen a few times! Good luck and you're not crazy!
The best thing you can do when encountering a narcissist is to ignore them and get away from them
Hard when one is our president. I agree more folks should ignore his daily drivel however.
@TheNotsoignorant well said .
@TheNotsoignorant His own words out of his own mouth are testimony to his narcissism. The media don't make up the video of him running his mouth.
"it's about dragging other people down into that misery they experience... they are going to destroy themselves in order to destroy you"
Yes you are so right about that
This describes Kathleen Kennedy perfectly.
The Loser Don't Do Its To A Guy I Had A Coward And He Going To Jail .I Never Backs Down To Him
I Fought Rights Backs Took Him To Court .And Got A Warning .Wasn't Going To Takes His Crap He A Coward.
The best way to deal with narcissists is to run far away from them and run fast.
Hard to do when one has been installed as our president!
@Eveline Fones Williams I'm 61 child & NOT buying the lies being fed to the masses. You?
T MH Run away, run fast. Do no feed the narc. Do not feed his need for external validation by showing him you are upset by his spiteful misogynistic comments.
All narcissists can be boiled down to one factor: they will pull whatever shit they think they can get away with, and only grow bolder with apathy.
Dr. Larry Mitchell No, they can’t. People are different, and reasons for behaviors are different.
Sounds like a liberal.
Yeah they will.
exactly! I think they are ALL everything just at different times just depends on what their life is like, their job, their personal WANTS, etc. they do WHATEVER they need to do to get what they want. period. the overt is also covert at times, the covert is also overt at times, the mac is also vindictive etc. etc. whatever tactic that suits them at any given time. not all of them care about fancy clothes and cars etc.(grandiose materially) some like to lay low in simple housing and autos and clothing and jewelry while thinking they are grandiose mentally (know more about everything than everyone else). mine thinks she knows more than God himself but lives in a small mobile home in a park and has a very old car. she went out and bought a 'wedding' ring after my dad died. why? they do all kinds of things that make no sense to the normal person. she acquired a lot of wealth when my father died which instantly turned her into a monster (or did it just allow her to let the beast within loose because NOW she has all that POWER?) almost right before my eyes she went from bad (all my life) to the worse I've ever seen. it was horrible she was tired of waiting so she actually pulled his plug so he would die! the love of money will make a psychopath so much worse. RUN!! and don't look back!
That is empirically true:
Evidence based on experience and observations.
I need a divorce very very very badly
Boy, if ever I could pick a therapist; you'd be the guy.
Besides being knowledgeable, your one of the most non judgemental person I've ever heard of.
Yes, the rumination. I could literally see my husband doing this. Often in the garden, quietly going about his work of planting etc. I would see him busy and quiet, thinking, thinking, thinking - and later on find things that he deliberately damaged - my things - over and over and over again, and they were obviously damaged by someone, but I would never ever actually see him do the damage - it was all done quietly and secretly and scarily. But no one else could have done it and I was always shocked to see what he was willing to do and when I opened the washing machine one day - there he had broken/busted the strong plastic agitater, like pieces were cut out of it in shapes, and that was the final straw for me along with the bad temper to me in endless roundabout argumentative stressful conversations. It was like he was planning all the time what to do to me through my things.
And as a footnote even though she lives in this town I would never confront her about these things because she would actually find satisfaction in knowing that even now I am still being hurt by things she did, since in the end I had to go "no contact." Not to mention she would Gaslight me and probably share with her flying monkeys what a ridiculous and awful thing I had accused her of. In other words, I'd only be getting in line for more abuse and I would not get the confirmation that would provide closure. But gradually I will find my own closure, because it's like cleaning out an abscess. Someday it will be fully clean and will scar over nicely.
Oh my gosh!!
Why would he damage your things? My husband does after argument or if I ignore him. He damaged most of my property in one day because I slept separately as I found out he is still having an affair.. I left he finished the affair but when we argue, I find my things damaged!! Behind my back or missing
that's exactly what I am dealing with now in terms of a vindictive narcissist whom I am in a lease with. while for the most part, I can ignore her behavior unless it threatens my safety or health. When she, out of spite, started to tamper with my property and just noticed this morning some of my belongings gone, that's where I draw the line. I know I will probably be sorry when I threaten to haul her in court legally for messing with my stuff, that the likely reaction will be more spite/revenge to point I will need to move and pay additional rent. But I also know there is a good chance she will escalate her spite anyway and may try and get away with alot more damage/theft. As Doc said, no productive way to deal with them unfortunately. One thing I noticed with her is her life is driven by fear, any threat that can cost her money gets her attention even if brief reprieve, and she does not have very good street smarts and that's the card I've learned to play.
@Life Unleashed I've experienced the same type behavior. What I did was to rent a storage space only in my name and then put my things in there to get them out of her reach until the lease expired. Then when I am no longer on the hook for the lease, end it. At least that way my things quit disappearing. Until that time, my things, especially things that meant something to me would just disappear.
These people are dangerous to the extent of even murder.
Yup definitely, he slammed my head into the floor over words. He was a little bit drunk but that's no excuse. I had brain damage, saw white spots couldn't move my neck for 3 days. Scary as hell, I thought I knew him and never saw it coming.
My exwife threatened me with suicide if I ever left her and sometimes with a murder / suicide. I’m so happy to be single now.
@Chinese Chicken feels good to be free. I know the feeling! 😁👍👌
@Victoria Anne Wow scary, I hope that you are out of that relationship! 😵😱
@Victoria Anne Yes I couldn't agree more with you on that statement. Feminist movement did start because of the way women and children were treated so badly. Men don't protect us! It's better to be alone. When I'm alone is when I feel safe and secure. Feminism is the right to be human.
This video describes my previous relationship so well.
Was with my ex for 9 months and for 7 of those months, we constantly fought over his obsession with my roommate not saying hello to him the first month in our relationship. He only came over a handful of times the first 2 months. Our final argument was him trying to convince me for 5 hours on what I can do and say to my roommate to give “give them a taste of their own medicine” and stop being friends with them to save our relationship. An international trip to meet his family and a trip to Vegas with mine, we argued about my roommate and other things, I was given the silent treatment many times. My roommate had no clue, they were just existing and trying to survive school. Even when I brought it up to my roommate later in my relationship, my roommate apologized and worked on making it better. My ex was still upset because i didn’t do it the right way and I should’ve made my roommate feel bad and disrespected just as he felt the entire relationship.
In his words, “I chose my roommate over my boyfriend” but I chose not to be controlled, take “revenge” and be mean on his behalf.
I used to be friends with this one woman. I started to recognize the gas lighting. She would complain about having to drop out of school and quit her job because she didn't have childcare and couldn't afford a sitter. I felt sympathy for her and offered to watch her children so she wouldn't have to quit trying to change her life for the better. Or so I thought. One morning she showed up at 7am and I was surprised, an hour earlier than usual. I asked her why she was so early and she said with a straight face "I always come at this time". Other times she would claim she was working late at the police station because there were so many accidents on those days. I had called the office and they were closed. I called the next day to inquire about extended hours and they said they don't stay past closing. I was watching her kids up to 13 hours a day, 8 to 10 days in a row for 10$ a day. She would come home from school and work and not even come to get her kids. I took her baby for a walk and saw she was home and thought oh she's coming any minute.... Not so. Ignored calls, etc. I can go on. There's plenty more to her. When I tried to talk to her about these issues, she suddenly turned on me, and one by one our friends started hating me. She has even gone after my children, one of them being special needs. She's tried to have me evicted, and has gone as far as filing false claims to children's aid society. Her flying monkeys utter threats, and participate in a huge smear campaign against me. For three years my family has been subjected to this. Still to this day. Her and her cohorts against me and my children. Making life at our home unbearable. Vandalism, harassment, death threats, assault threats, etc. Now I want to take things to a physical level. Yet I'm not a narc. I'm an abuse survivor. I'm defensive of myself and my family.
It's low life trash like that that makes us feel like no good deed goes unpunished & puts us off from helping someone in need in the future.
I learned to never have a relationship with someone you feel sorry for because they take advantage of your good nature!
There is no other youtuber I can trust as it comes to narcissism ... I can see they lack credibility, objectivity and see this construct in a hollywood-dramatic way. I’m glad you exist, thank you!
You are quite welcome!
Yes, I also agree with the said comment! Dr Grande is the only person I tend to listen to. He has such a way of verbalizing the topic without making it sound cliche or boring.
there's a couple/few others I like, but Dr. Grande's logical, straight-forward approach is appreciated here too
I totally agree!
This is so true with my family member. Sometimes I forget how horrible it felt to be on the receiving end of this. I am 34 and still trying to get myself together because I’ve been manipulated to believe that I can’t survive on my own. I’m beginning to realize I’ve held myself back because I’ve believed that I was incompetent & cannot succeed past a certain point. I’ve “dimmed my light” so to speak, in order to avoid making this particular person feel insecure or to not trigger jealousy. Ugh 😣 it’s hard to admit this, luckily I’m in therapy & I’m gonna get out of this situation as soon as I can.
Thank you for sharing this. I needed to know I’m not the only one. 🦋
Your not alone
Turn your back and walk away. You may be related by blood but as in a family member have they ever treated you like one? If not feel no guilt. I realized I had false hope for decades for the 3 narcs in the ‘family’ I grew up with. Mum passed and since she was ‘out of the house for good’ they started up their vile toxic abusive behavior towards me specifically, just like they did as we were growing up together. I’ve cut contact. Someone has to be the adult and realize I have to respect myself coz they certainly have never and will never. Take care and no guilt!👍🏼
Have you heard of "soul distancing"?
I have learnd so much about narcissism from you, and it have really turnde my life around. Now I understand why I suffered so badly during my childhood and still are. My father was malignant and my mother covert. I can’t change the past but it helps to understand and I can finally (at age 49) strart my healing process. All my thanks to you❣️
Same with me my friend. Hope we could share our stories.
@Dorothy Pettijohn friends are the family that you pick.
Im starting to heal at 80 years of age. What a relief, i plan to live another 120 years. Here is the interesting thing. I am a boss, always been a boss but raged against by every lover, husband, except for one. As a matter of fact, I have a STEM brain. But always open to listen to a different opinion. I am as perfect as I can be according to my raging mother. I am really tired of it all.
My parents are too and dad is -Perfectionist and I tore stuff ,and mother is a dark empathetic kind of person likely BPd/CPSDT from childhood as I heard it. I was 16 when I got pregnant and she made me go to counseling. However , the counselor Thought i was ok and asked her to remain in counseling. I asked her just last yr how it went (I’m 56 and she’s 84). Hee response was “ I stayed for 6 months and didn’t want to be on medication so I quit. Lol I laughed loud and reminded her about all the Greek alcohol she drank with her diet dr peppers I mean darn! That generation sucked as parents.
Husband of 16 years is a vindictive narcissist. It started out slowly. Love bombed into marriage. First I called him out, stood my ground, but he just never quit. I started "picking my battles". Mistake, he interpreted this as acquiescence. I started traveling more and more for my work to get away from him. I had no idea, what he was. Thought it was just low self esteem. He hated my success. Can't for the life of me figure out why he would have latched on to me. I'm usually strong and independent. Finally, I started googling some of his behavior and it all fell into place. I was dealing with a covert/vindictive narcissist. Gave him an ultimatum to get help. You can imagine how well that was received. He started in on a 9 month silent treatment and little petty acts of punishment. All the while, I was planning my escape. I'm gone now, but still have to face the ordeal of a divorce from this nasty petty vindictive little person. Healing and working up a head steam. Thanks for these clear videos. Part of my recovery process.
good for you. i agree with you. they are envious of our success but they won’t do anything to improve themselves. they seem like they are doing things on purpose to provoke a reaction that is not our normal behavior then play victim.
Taking down a strong, confident target is far more appealing to the Narc. You represent all they are not. Your qualities trigger the NPD behavior as it reflects their insufficiencies. The GET OFF on emotional response. Twisted ...
@The Neophyte Well put,my ex narc used to say "I know you love your job and I am going to make you lose it" and also "IF I LET YOU study for your midwifery you will think that you are better than me!"
Sadly getting a divorce from those people can be hell as they always manage to fool most lawyers and judges,mostly when it comes to child custody.
...."all the while I was planning my escape"...💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯🖤
SO glad to figure out why I was miserable for YEARS in my last job. I always did my best to look good for the practice and take great care of my patients. But my boss would be all friendly, then write me up for everything, all vindictive and small. She micromanaged and undermined and gaslighted me and tried to isolate me from other professionals... until I thought I was horrible at my job... I stopped trying to talk with her... there was NO talking it out... I was walking around terrified, because she was in a power position and all her superiors were completely unaware of this malicious side of her and would never believe my word over hers. (Employees of course equally terrified and could not talk.) HR was genuinely shocked at some of the things I finally told them when I quit, and asked why I hadn't said anything before. Really?? One final tempest in a teapot and I finally quit. Best decision of my life, and my colleagues and a ton of my patients have bombarded the office with questions about where I went and how they can contact me. That has really touched me... and I hope it burns her, too. Happy old me is back!
This video is spot-on. I was married to a narcissist who is also paranoid to the nth degree. A nasty combination! We have been divorced for 8 years and the scorched-earth policy of hers continues unabated. She is quite prepared to destroy herself in order to hurt me.
Is her name Amber 😉
Wow... I remember my ex saying he would damage someone’s stuff because he felt insulted. This was my life. Now alone but at peace.... smiling more and feeling like the world just opened it’s doors to me. Thank you doctor. 😊
My H is destroying my stuff daily. Cutting the seams on all my clothes, putting holes in every towel (they are his too…?) stealing stuff and returning it to another spot. Denying true facts…gaslighting. I totally called him out on all of this and said “if you are the one destroying all my stuff, you have serious mental issues and you really should stop.” He didn’t so now I just laugh and buy new stuff. It’s his money.
@Chakka Kon so you don’t leave because it’s his money? That’s super sad! I’d leave in a heart beat. Or you can kick him out. Why stay married?
Threatened to hurt my animals flattening my tires.
It often takes a good deal of time to recognize I have been HAD, again, by a narcissist. THEN I dump and run. I was brought up by two narcissists. It takes me time to recognize all their various forms. I am so used to them I don’t even recognize them. It’s been a lifelong struggle. I love learning from these podcasts.
Narcs die with their lies and deceptions.. Thank you Dr. Grande, your articles are very helpful and relevant..
It’s a scary thought!
You are so right
I'm in Divorce proceedings, and all of these traits I have found to be true in my soon to be ex husband. I saw them during our marriage, and now in our divorce journey. I'm relying more and more on my attorney to navigate the situation. There's no reasoning with a vindictive narcissist.
Thanks for your content!
The ten sign posts are:
8:12. Revenge plot
9:29. Emotional deregulation
10:25. Victim hood
11:22 Attempts with another vindictive narcissist
I'm always looking for clues to these types of behaviors in communication. I found a table that compares constructive criticism versus destructive or abusive criticism. I also noticed that people who tend to be more obsequious to superiors tend to be more condescending toward subordinates and are very upset when they find out someone they look down upon makes as much or more money than they do, even by just a few dollars.
How often would we see this pattern in domestic abusers who insist on controlling their partner/family and become violent when resisted?
Thanks for addressing this type of narcissism. I was literally taking notes. These types definitely don't learn from their immature behaviour and are poisonous to relationships. When confronted by someone coolly and calmly they are typically caught off guard but they'll deflect and gas light despite it being obvious they're avoiding the issue of accountability or owning negative behaviours.
I recognise a few individuals who, due to a past tendency - decades ago, thankfully! - to 'people-please' as a result of narcissistic parents, I let into my life as so-called "friends" and did I ever regret this!
Vindicative narcissists use others and will seek people out who they admire and who are willing to be their 24/7 unpaid personal 'counsellors' whilst actively resenting the fact the other individual has, as they view it, 'the power' to be in such a position. It's ridiculous and emotionally so very immature.
Also, you're right - they don't learn from past mistakes, errors in judgment, or relationship issues. They dwell
on what they feel others have done to injure them in some way or another and become preoccupied with revenge even at their own expense. And they continue to repeat the same errors and resent even a very tactful explanation of such negative habits.
Frankly, if these vindictive narcissists can be avoided or confronted and
the relationships ended (by the non-narcissist), it makes for a much easier and happier life.
Thank you for the clear information. It’s such a challenge to even begin to make sense of a narcissist’s motivations and behaviours. How much life misery could be prevented if this topic was taught to high school youth?
I said same
Another topic that would be extremely beneficial would be “How to deal with narcissists in business negotiations when they have clear leverage” and you can’t avoid it
For example, do you stroke their ego to achieve your goal in the meeting? do you ignore their narcissistic and egocentric remarks? do you simply withdraw completely?
I ask because there seems to be an over representation of narcissists in the entrepreneurial social realm.
Marlina Dykema Hey thanks for the reply, but I am talking about Business negotiations. Not worker HR relations.
Dr Todd, I'm so deeply grateful for your videos and the invaluable content and time you are gifting us 💙
I was raised in a home with a dad who's either a narcissist or has strong narcissistic qualities and traits (you've taught me that I don't have the right to label or diagnose anyone with a personality disorder, especially if I'm unqualified or the person hasn't been professionally assessed), and my mum was the codependent who had a lot of suppressed rage and took it out on myself and my siblings...
I often find myself confused as an adult when I'm in situations where my childhood narcissistic abuse wounds are triggered - because I notice that some learnt behaviors arise when I'm feeling hurt, attacked, afraid and unsafe...
For years I have been conflict avoidant and my "go to" survival reaction is "freeze mode"... I've always been the one to back down and let things go to keep the peace... And as I've gotten older and wiser, I now understand that this tactic only teaches people that the inappropriate behaviors are ok to continue towards me... So this year I've decided to speak up for myself and tell people how their behavior has made me feel and set a boundary by saying that the behavior is not ok... But what I'm now experiencing with some people through this approach is finding myself in the back and forth situation where instead of feeling heard and respected, the person will come back with a very manipulative response basically implying the conflict is entirely my fault... And I realised after listening to this video that I'm being pulled into the game by responding (and attempting various ways of clear communication) to feel heard and validated because I want my boundary of "your behavior was not ok and made me feel unsafe and in the future I need you to a, b, c, etc.,"... And my feelings of anger and frustration increase...
To the point where I'm now wondering if I'm actually a covert narcissist and have been in denial of this? Or if this situation is showing me that I need to do some more inner healing work on my own trauma wounds from childhood to both heal the triggers and need to be validated by a person who I feel is being abusive towards me and learn how to detach, have more awareness when I'm being pulled into a dynamic like this, take responsibility for my triggers and learn how to respond to abuse in a way that is empowering and mature?
I'm really concerned and worried about the possibility of myself being a covert narcissist because I know the pain and trauma of being on the receiving end, as well as the intensive hard work of healing, and I would be devastated if I was treating others in a harmful way and having this impact on people! How do I know if I am a covert narcissist, and if I am, what do I need to do to heal and change? 💙 Thank you 💙
A great deal of the stress of being, or having been, in the sphere of a narcissist is their thoroughly baffling motivations and actions. These people truly think in a completely different way. There’s such a great need for credible information on this topic. Please consider providing more narcissism videos.
Best authority on different kinds of narcissism I’ve heard on UA-cam. I always knew when my ex narc would be prowling for new supply... right after I stood up to him.
I respectfully disagree to an extent. I feel that many individuals who have been victims of others that show traits of narcissism simply want to be free from them and are incredibly fearful of what can happen to others if that person isn’t held to some account. Especially if they are in charge of others’ lives that are vulnerable and are still actively doing those same things. I am sure some cases are like this but most people that I have met that have been victimized in any way mostly tend to obsess and ruminate over that NOT vengeance. It’s just telling others everything can then put them at risk as well. Just a point of view, I’m sure it’s not like that always. Thank you for your videos, I look forward to them always because the topics you discuss are very interesting and the resources you provide are helpful. Best wishes to everyone.
Gollum’s Lover this is a great point, if you are on the receiving end of this it’s very easy to slip into ruminating about how you will resolve it, making logical analysis of their sloppy onslaught which usually is insulting to anyone’s intelligence, the fact they use an ounce of truth and and ounce of believability is also infuriating as the rumination on the part of the victim of their behaviour is gaslit into believing they might be the one with the problem. Aaaarrrghgh they are so cowardly and vain.
As always this was incredible helpful, thank you so much Dr. Grande. You described my cousin word for word; she was childish, always the victim (even though she sexually abused me), couldn’t tolerate any amount of criticism even when approached very politely, set double standards and excused her bullying behaviour as being necessary because I “haven’t had as tough of a life” and needed “to learn”. There was never any way to rationalize with her or have a civil disagreement, and eventually she ‘snapped.’ So glad she is no longer in my life, and that I now have the knowledge and am gaining the tools to protect myself and my daughter from those kind of toxic behaviours. Thank you again and take care 🙏
I think this video is the single most important thing I've ever watched. You've explained vendictive narcissism so succinctly that I can see now why every attempt at reason I've made in my own situation has utterly failed. I'm going to stop trying now.
Thank you for all the knowledge you've imparted here. Your videos are an excellent educational resource.
"They are careful about seeking revenge against superiors" (3:23). This is because they know that this might jeopardize their ability to keep their charade against others going.
And their games. They must always have a context favorable to their mind games.
abuse ot power because of non sense, hurt people hurt people
Thank you so very much Dr Grande. I missed you since I’ve been working a temp job, but this is exactly, identically an experience I had with a female coworker! For 3 months she caused utter brain chaos and I didn’t know how to communicate with her. Nothing worked. I gave notice and when she found out she said to me ‘you might not like me, but the entire world loves me’. I never once said I didn’t like her, but anytime I was praised for something I did well by a superior, this woman would attack me viciously. I seriously started to wonder if I was losing my mind and acting improperly and questioned myself deeply. I’m so grateful to you. Your timing has saved me weeks or possibly more of wondering and worrying! 😘
The most helpful presentation on the vindictive narcissist I've seen to date. They will pursue vindication regardless of self destruction. It's pitiful to experience. Thank you so much Dr Grande for an EXCELLENT presentation, I look forward to your future work.
Signs: (watch vid for proper context)
1 Dominance (control)
2 Power (they should not have it!)
3 Manipulation (they’re not good at it)
4 Revenge (d/t criticism insult advice)
5 Sloppy (due to: rage)
6 Rumination (plot is gradual d/t intolerable insult)
7 Revenge plot (a time of time invested to this end regardless of the outcome)
8 Emotional deregulation (will get back at you)
9 Victimhood (they believe they are setting things right - entitlement)
10 Attempts ++++ (b/c they don’t know when to walk away, or let it be)
O, sounds like my last ex, who sent flying monkeys, including former f--k buddies, to try finding out what I was up to, and even trying to catfish me on Facebook!
@Brussel Sprout Yes it is Judy, it's become quite interesting now .. dangerous potentially when we let them get too close, but interesting. They don't realise we're actually watching them watch us hahaha :)
Guilty on 8/10 accounts. I have no idea what to do with criticism... It confuses me, because I make every attempt to do things right such that I don't have to face my flaws - delicate ego here - and feel as if all that effort was pointless. It's very goddamn frustrating.
Differentiating between an insult and "fair" criticism is difficult too... there seems to be a continuum in the matter, and interpreting where the line is? A practice in learned helplessness. Criticisms on my attitude or personality are a no-go, so my suggestion? Pretend I have a (peripheral) mental illness and help me treat it.
Insults, in my opinion, are unforgivable. That's it... you're less than human to me and deserve endless retaliation. I've always had the saying, "don't poke the bear if you don't want to get mauled." Getting someone to just fuck off is never good enough... I want to pusue and eliminate. An apology and subservience goes a long way though.
Yes, I know this is a highly unreasonable way of thinking, and I fear that it may turn into something beyond stewing in bitterness for weeks on end with age and experience. Still, I don't feel inclined to want to change it, but to develop it and exact retribution on everyone who ever insulted me or criticised my attitude. (Help, I'm actually a crazy person! XD)
Oh man the Revenge. Now it’s on stage 10 because they can’t get over the fact that I’m not gonna give a reaction even if they literally stand in front of me
Everyone has traits of narcissism. With all the people judging others of personality disorders it's getting a bit redundant. No one has a perfect personality. It seem's as though everyone is a narc except for the individual judging others with traits of narcissism. Are there more people with personality disorders in general population or not? Would a narcissistic person watch videos on narcissism? I'm confused.
I found this video very interesting. Your description has come closer to accurately describing my former spouse than some of the other professionals I follow. My ex is high on the spectrum but demonstrates traits from multiple types of narcissism. I learned I have a pattern that attracts narcissists, so learning what to look for has become a goal for me. It has been over three years since the divorce, and though I have gotten better at detecting the basic signs of manipulative behavior in potential partners, I feel I have farther to go before seriously considering another relationship.
I wish I would've found out this information decades ago. My father is a narcissist, I don't know what type exactly. He was also an undiagnosed bi-polar until I was 22. I ended up marrying a VN, vindictive type, and your video is so spot on, its eerie. I walk on eggshells constantly, it is very stressful. I find it almost funny-but not, how people say "just leave" without any clue about what exactly that entails. Thank you for your videos, I'm learning so much.
So accurate in describing my mother. WOW. She is unrelenting and now suing me. You are so right, years of intermittent abuse and I would always look past her flaws and forgive or avoid her periodically. But once it got unrelenting I had no choice but to cut her out of my life. This is her exactly. Lord help me.
Thank you, I left a work environment I was sharing with someone who met this criteria and it took me about 2 years to trust people in the work place again. Not only me but his, at the time ‘flying monkeys’, had him turn on them also once I left. Basically if you did well and achieved or had something he was jealous about you would get anonymous cowardice letter or emails sent to superiors or even the police to get you into trouble. I had to go to counselling for a couple of years to help me recover and realise the world isn’t such a bad place. Thank you for defining this person here, you don’t realise how much closure this has given me.
Finally after 56 years with narc parents, who never liked me, I made the call and said I can’t visit anymore. She went off the rails,but when I said I was afraid my father would kill me, crickets. Bye bye f@#$& narc trauma, I survived and am an amazing person now. Jesus has saved me!
Think Forurself; Jesus saved me also and I'm free from those in my family circle who are toxic narcissists.
Good for you! I can relate x
Amen...... Good for you!
Healing takes a long time... to some extent, lifelong.
Yeah, the book of Jude and i thinn 2 Peter 3; or is it 1 Peter 3,speaks on similar people withinthe church that do these very things. They "worm" their way into churches and in other places "prey on women."
Its terrible but, like many times,the Bible makes aware and I'm grateful it does.
Thanks for this one! I can see this pattern now in my ex. I couldn’t understand why she used to come home from work in tears because someone ( a customer) gave her a hard time at the checkout. I now realise she couldn’t take any criticism whatsoever! I’ve also been on the receiving end of her rage ,when she perceived I was somehow putting her down, when I wasn’t at all. 😬😣
Hi Todd, a great insight thank you! I had an experience with a partner and quite a few months back, stumbled upon your vulnerable narcissist descriptions which seemed to really fit what I was experiencing from this person. It was all quite confusing, I did talk myself out of the possibility of it because of my feeling for them. Fast forward to now, it stunned me as they seemed to be punishing me emotionally and they broke up with me in a rage. I allowed the breakup to happen and felt somewhat relieved. What was wild was that I think they assumed I would beg for them back and even though they where withholding my belongings for quite some time I remained in my domain. I saw that they used my toothbrush to paint with (this person is a sign writer) and not only did they post the image with the description “toothbrush and ink” but they also took a picture of my toothbrush covered in ink and put it online. I was shocked to see an act of revenge, even though they discarded me! Freaked me out. Wild behaviour and they have no idea that seeing this repelled me further.
To any one reading this, I would like to say from my own experience, if you are friends with one of these people or you are dating one of these people, dump them and move on with your life. The pain they cause you is not worth it and they will not change. God Bless anyone on here that has had to endure the pain, from a narcissist . To mothers and fathers who endured the pain, my heart breaks for you. I walked in your shoes but will never allow it again. It is very very hard, to except that the child you gave birth to is so ill, and its just as hard to except all the broken hearts they gave you and did not care at all that they broke your heart. Its hard knowing you gave birth to a beautiful baby, and one day the only way you can survive is to totally let them go. God Bless any one in those shoes.
You are the first person ive seen talk about child narcs, thank you, I can relate, its devastating
Isn't narcissism caused by bad parenting? Perhaps you need to assess yourself or your spouse first.
@sim sim salabim I take it that you are speaking from experience because YOUR parents failed you
@cathy Gray Deflection instead of introspection. Typical. My sympathies to your poor child.
@sim sim salabim My sympathies go out to your family and to you. I hope you find God soon. You need him in your heart. You putting judgements on people and having the nerve to insult people, who you have never walked in their shoes tells me you know nothing about God. I hope you find him soon. I will not reply to any more that you say. You need a punching bag, it may take your anger issues away and buy a bible, so you can learn about Gods word. I hope you find him soon. He is the judge of people. Not u !
I had thought of my brothers personality like the malignant narcissistic type but these descriptions fit his toxic behaviours perfectly.
Will be very helpful with any interactions with him.
Learning about things like the many types of logical falasies has greatly helped when dealing with my families intergenerational dysfunctional personalities.
Also learn to trust in ones own experiences and trust that whatever comes from a suspected cluster b personality is not the true facts.
It helps when overcoming cognitive dissonance when first realising the horrors of "loved ones" having intentionally sabotaged ones sense of reality.
Thank you 🙏 for another brilliant analysis of narcissism and thank you 🙏 for explaining a concept I hadn’t heard of before, Vindictive Narcissism. The penny has just dropped for me in what type of narcissism my sister suffers from. I’d always thought of her as a Covert narcissist up to this point and from what you have described, she is. But I now realise where her capacity for vindictiveness comes from and how she is able to turn on anyone whom she cannot control. Her capacity for revenge is like a bottomless pit. Once crossed she switches into revenge mode and no amount of reasoning works. In my experience reasoning fuels her resolve to maintain herself as the victim which is an odd situation to be in. Her favourite method of revenge is to use the silent treatment whilst at the same time getting her flying monkeys to either attack you or also use silent treatment.
I’ve often said that being around my sister feels like being bullied by the school bully. I’ve decided that the silent treatment is not a strong enough description to describe this type of punishment towards me because it goes on for too long. She hasn’t spoken to me for over 5 years, which is a long time for silent treatment. Interestingly one of my late aunties used to do the same, in fact the longest period that she didn’t speak to her only son was for 22 years. It’s incredible isn’t it? My late mother used the same punishment as her weapon of choice. My late father had BPD and couldn’t tolerate the silent treatment and so even though he could be violent and controlling towards her, I noticed it was she who had the ultimate control over him.
And me - I got the hell out dodge at the age of 18 and didn’t look back. I’m 57 years old now and after decades of healing from my once significant Codependency and Anxiety, I lead a full and healthy life away from my family of origin.
I find these videos to be fascinating. I only wish I’d been able to have access to them in my younger years. It would have helped me enormously.
Another excellent video 🙏👏👏👏🙏
"BRAVO" Ruth.... I left when I was 18 but came back 6 times... I am now here, but am planning on leaving for good.
I too believe I was codependent and had anxiety because I couldn't figure this out...
I now know this video describes the person in my life is just that V.N. ... so I'll move on and accept this.
Truly, I apologised to a c.n. recently and it made her even more furious and abusive!
I'm still in shock, weeks later 😦
The lies, the accusations that came back were something I've never seen before.
Your description of the vindictive narcissist validates my own thoughts and feelings about a particularly stressful situation at work. I've had a lot to think about, with so much going on there. The timing couldn't have been better, many thanks for all your good work.
I have not had any contact with my daughter or sister in over 22 years. unfortunately both are overt!! the business they have both chosen supply them with supply. both endorse each others bad behavior. stay away from narcissists !!!!!
Fantastic analysis. It is too simple to say someone is narcissistic there are too many types and as you say these things are on a continuum and also swing back and forth between covert and overt. I also like the clarity given between machiavellianism and narcissism. The devil is in the detail and that is why I always learn something from your videos and that is why I try and watch as many as I can.
A very insightful account of the vindictive narcissist. And the difficulties in dealing with one! Thank you Dr G.
Xnarc is covert when sober, grandiose when drunk, and vindictive because I have gone no contact. It's very exhausting.
Love your channel. The information is factual and legitimate. You're very informative on these topics and it helps me with my work which is mental health nursing. Thank you.
This was very informative! I just wish you had put this more in context of the vindictive parent who uses their narcissistic games to abuse their child. You just described my mother perfectly and I believe she is a cluster B personality type who fluctuates between sociopath, psychopath and malignant Narcissist.
Thanks again for your insights, Dr Grande. There seem to be so many strains to NPD that for the layperson it can be difficult to make a proper assessment of who they might be dealing with. These people are certainly damaged and have the ability to inflict damage on others.
I've been watching most of your content about narcissism, machiavellianism and even psychopathy and one thing that always come to my mind is that, when you speak about them it really sounds like they are different constructs that don't seem to either overlap or "collaborate" with each other; almost like in a person's personality those constructs seem to have a very specific place and role and they don't mess with each other. I've seen you talk about a narcissist that can either go overt or covert sometimes, but what about a person that is, let's say, narcissistic and machiavellic: how do they interact with each other and what might be the results of that? That could be interesting to explore in a future video, in case you want.
Thank you for your input. I wish I could talk more about this, but the narcissists I deal with follow me online.
Wow. You've described a few dangerous members of my family. Thank you for the clarification.
most I know are family, mine and my husbands. very sad. we are 2 empaths that found each other and have so much in common just now realizing how much after 40 years of marriage! wow. some of us are slow to realize what has been going on our whole lives. and it's very sad that all that time was wasted on narcs!
L.A.Stevens - they can do much damage to the good people :-( !
I’m so glad I found this channel. How much better this is than others I used to watch. You give accurate and precise information, and there’s no weirdness or inciting emotional responses. This video was really interesting, thank you.
This is probably the most accurate description of what I have had to go through since I divorced my now ex wife. I watched her 2000 vindictive things to other women that had crossed her during the course of our 20 year marriage. Since I divorced her she has tried to destroy my reputation in town, she has call the police at least once a month. She is accused me of murder, money laundering, drug dealing, and child molestation, as recently as LAST WEEK on my 50th birthday. I must have the biggest investigation file of anybody in Florida.
Listening to this while keep being reminder of a person who’s out for me right now for the exact same things you’re saying. So much knowledge and insight. That said I don’t know what else to do about it other than document her actions and present it to someone hoping they believe me over her.
Thank you again, so very much, Dr. Grande! As always, balanced, accurate, and absolutely reliable information. I just keep referring others to your amazing and knowledgeable channel.
You are so right. I have just been thru a two year civil trial with a vindictive narcissistic boyfriend, both lawyers with a brain dead judge. I lost the case and my lawyer has become unhinged and wants to go for blood at my expense of course.
Marj Huggins,You look cute 🥰,Hope you are not with a narcissist….
I think I imploded and exploded when I came into contact with a narcissist once. It was a mess. Thanks for making these great informative videos.
Got everything nail on the head! Thank you for this as I will know how to deal with this person in particular along with mentioning the same to family members 👌🏽
Thank you for this teaching on how NPD can manifest along the spectrum. So many fascinating points came up in this video.
You mentioned how a Vindictive Narcissist interacts with more Malignant Narcissists. Narcissist vs. Narcissist is a topic in and of itself.
The childishness in their chosen methods of revenge is also an intriguing topic.
Absolutely amazing, Dr. Grande. Bravo 👏
Narcissistic Abuse Rehab yeah when they start excecutibg revenge on eachother. Sad.
I was a shift leader in a call center and I took on other duties as well. One morning, a female coworker smiled at me and a 30 year old brat threw an obnoxious temper tantrum over not getting all of the attention. I didn't feel it was my job to take it or customers place to hear it so I reported it to my supervisor. She accused me of judging and told me to leave him alone. I said nothing to him. I went to another supervisor about his behavior and when mine got word, she came in early just to harass me with extreme hatred about it putting words in my mouth making an all out show of her favoritism. She wouldn't allow me to say anything. It was so stressful, I was shaking. A week later, she fired me for mentioning him. When I reported the harassment to HR, they said they would look into it and get back to me. Crickets. Deafening silence. It was behind closed doors so she lied her way out of it. I learned later, he got my job as lead but was fired shortly after. Another employee reported his attitude and she had to save face. I did (as it was my job) and I was a criminal.
The same happened to me. It’s a double whammy when a colleague and supervisor team up! I’m better off that they didn’t renew my contract at year’s end; however, it was miserable to face it every day. Scary world.
I strongly suspect that my mom is a narcissist, and sounds like she's a vindictive one. What's interesting is that I've seen her act like this with other family members to some extent, but nowhere near to the level that she does with me. It's like I'm the only one who sees the worst of it.
That was my mother. I was an only child. She lived to 90 yo. I just often wondered what happened to her as my grandparents and her siblings good kind people. I am glad I am finally realizing what her problem was. I just ended my relationship with her at about 35 yo. I was there for her in the end with her dementia. She could no longer remember why she did not like me or her revenge plans. It was against so many not just myself of course. But she did have to end up in a private room at the nursing home as she threw things and intimidated any roomate. However, that behavior can just be part of the dementia. It still causes me pain to remember all the emotional abuse those 35 years and I am 71 now. It is difficult to forget. I just would always wonder why??
@Glenda Grant After my comment, I did some research online. From what I read, narcissists often choose their targets based on what they can gain from that person in one way or another, or who they think are vulnerable or easy to control.
Thank you so much for this video, it has help me to understand the past situation I went through! Only option for dealing with a person like this is to move far, and far way. Even than sometimes that’s not enough. You have to completely change everything.
Dr. G can you please talk about stalking or unrelenting pursuit and how it goes hand in hand with the cluster b disorders? Love this video and all your videos.
I know a vindictive narcissist woman who has been divorced 20 year's because she had an on going affair that resulted in a child. She has since had other children but still stalks her ex husband ( who's been gone 20 year's) . She says she wants him back so she can leave him like he left her. She doesn't feel like she's doing anything wrong even though he's been remarried for 18 years.😨
@Kyna Thomas That's crazy! I would let her ex know. I have an ex-boss whom I worked for 20 years ago who's stalking me. I believe he's a narcissist. After putting me on a pedestal and offering me a lucrative contract, he was very controlling. He said awful things to me and didn't pay me what he promised. I was financially destroyed. After losing my home, I walked away, but he refuses to let me go. Every day, he watches my websites and watches me on social media. I can only hope he's not the vindictive type.
@LucilleB He lives in Texas and has been there now over 20 year's. I don't know the ex husband's last name but your correct he does deserve to know that he has a stalker.
"Stalking and unrelentless pursuit." Amen.
I’d love to see a follow up on how to deal with this type of person. I think it would really help a lot of people. Also, i really enjoy your videos. I feel I learn so much.
I throughly enjoy your videos😊 Your presentation, voice, demeanor is perfect and I trust and learn so much from you. Thank you for sharing with us!
That is such a nice thing to say - thank you so much :)
@Dr. Todd Grande I'm really enjoying this video and I was wondering whether if you have any others where you're discussing the type of narcissists who are miserable and want to drag others into their misery rather than over come their misery ?
This is a question that is very important to me ( and I am sure very many other parents) If you have the time, please make a video on this topic. I have a daughter that is raised the majority of time with her father that is NPD. She is showing more and more signs every day that she is developing the disorder herself. She is 10 now. Is this too late? Has the disorder already developed? I've heard it happens before 5. How can I help curb this on my end? I try to help her have compassion and empathy... these concepts seems foreign to her. She appears to only do good when she will receive recognition for it, rather than the desire to help.... is there anything at all I can do to help her? I do not want the fate of NPD for her. I know they are miserable for the entirety of their lives.
I am so very sorry to hear you also have a child with this. God Bless you. I also look forward to hearing what women with NPD disorder were like as children. I have not found that any where on line. I see daughters with NPD mothers but not mothers who are not NPD that have daughters with this.
Thank you, Dr. Grande, for your clear and packed explanations. Very helpful.
Thank you Dr. Grande for pointing out how to recognize the signs and symptoms of vindictive narcissism. Could a person call human behavior vindictive narcissism only when the covert aggression or being passive aggresive being expressed by the person continues to last over a long period of time after rulling out any predisposing more short term physical factors? If so how long of a period taking place in which a person is often seen displaying that set of behaviors icluding rumination, resentment and plotting one after another revenge to be carried out for it to be considered as their signs and symptoms being defined as it being vindictive narcissism? When for example medical teams are being forced to choose aligning with only one out of 2 vindictive narcissistic professionals who are both out to prove that they are right in all of their perceptions at work better than the other how can one determine in a situation like that which of the 2 is altogether headed down the path of vindictive narcissism most enough to get a permanent diagnosis of vindictive narcissism added to their medical history? I would think that if the person so labelled and punished by say having to become supervised in their work for a period of time instead of remaining a supervisor while continuing to play the victim to anyone who is willing to listen
Now I know why my ex-husband persisted for so many years to make my life miserable. It made co-parenting successfully after divorcing completely impossible. It was as if you were describing him to a tee. In fact, so much so, it's quite eerie. It brings back bad memories I thought I was over.
Your videos are always to the point, well articulated & helpful. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. 🙏
Thank you, again, Dr. Grande. Your continual hard work and efforts has and will help so many people.
Thank you. This talk was really helpful. I had to back it up a couple of times to make sure I understood the complete idea but it was worth it. There are things I understood somewhat before but didn’t know why certain problems existed like why the person wasn’t learning and maybe didn’t even feel the need to.
I feel like I’m on the right track hearing all you have to share on the subject. Unlike some who insist that you get away from the narcissist, you seemed to understand that that is not always possible.
Excellent video - finally an exact explanation of what I am dealing with! It's all clear now and I can see that no matter what I do there will be no progress or opportunity for a peaceful/ normal relationship. There is no way to manage their perceived insults that continuously result in this mindfuckery/ war games that I do not even know that I am involved with majority of the time!! I feel sorry for him, I truly loved him but it is an impossible future full of chaos - you only get one life and I choose not to live it live that!
Great video as always. I’m dealing with a narcissist person in the workplace but I refuse to just up and leave or transfer since I really like the job a lot and have actually just become a supervisor after being there for several years. The person I’m referring to has been there less than a year but has seemed to turn a couple of my coworkers, who I’ve always had a great relationship with before the narcissist started, against me even though I’ve done nothing wrong. I hate to say it because I’m the complete opposite of a conceited or self-absorbed person, but I think she is somewhat jealous of me - she always goes out of her way to insult and belittle me and constantly interrupts everything I say but praises and compliments everyone else. She’s even said herself she believes she’s narcissist (and seemed proud of it) and that she thinks of herself as “above most people”, yet I’m treated like the bad one. Any advice on what to do about this person/situation?
Very interesting. Think I once had first hand experience w/ this in a brief relationship. Manipulation by raising the issue of my "inability to understand her" was frequent, then magically resolved with a "you don't get it but that's OK". When arguing in a car she'd get up on her knees so she could look down & point her finger at me.
Thank you very much for this video. We must educate ourselves about these dangerous people. Nowadays there so many of them everywhere and they tend to engage with us using their fakeness. I wonder how a person can be such an empty shell, a hollow vessel like a narc. Stay away from them. Live in peace and enjoy your life 🙏❤
Never clicked a notification quicker on any other channel. Great insight on the subject, seems like narcissm has more sides of the spectrum and seem to overlap. I appreciate the consistency in all of your videos and their content. Sounds like my father fits this criteria vs full blown NPD. His current diagnosis is Biolar with psychotic tendencies and PTSD. He is very reactive in his moods and he really likes to use his past (combat veteran) to excuse himself of his own toxicity despite his treatment journey. He is an ongoing recovering addict and alcoholic with a violent past. Is there any hope for cases like his? He seems to be self aware to a point but still cannot seem to let go of the past and have trouble being a civilian. He believes no therapy will ever help because none have endured combat. His revenge is digging his heels in sand and standing his ground rather being accountable and mean it.
I totally feel ya! I've dealt with a lot of Cluster Bs in my life and family, and my sister being one who has been diagnosed with bipolar. I have known and actually lived with people with bipolar disorder, and all I can say is that they don't act the same way because bipolar people don't just "lash out" out of the blue.
It's emotionally draining and if you spend enough time with them you develop traits. Still working on my traits Ive gotten from my caretakers.
@Rebecca Jimenez I agree, but I also disagree. I am an empathetic hot mess. And to avoid provoking people who are volatile and narcissistic, I've developed people pleaser syndrome. I'm not suggesting it's a good coping strategy, because I absorb everything! But I refuse to be open and sensitive to kind an compassionate people because a few narcissistic MFs tried to screw up my life! It's a delicate balance and I'm still desperately trying to figure it out!
Hi Dr. Grande,
Thank you for another great video. Could I ask please, with a vindictive narcissist, do they interject themselves into your life very quickly (looking back ) and could you possibly start to see almost "stalker" traits. If your paying attention, after you may suspect a pattern of vindictiveness. But it started as a well meaning friend, coworker, family member etc. Then you start to see control issues, unsolicited "advice" etc.
If so, in your opinion, what is the safest most peaceful way to back up from them ? And how do you know if they have truly hopefully moved on from you ? I know that sounds suspicious, but I believe in listening to my gut instincts.....they have never led me wrong. The problem is I trust and have since hopefully learned trust is earned. It's unfortunate because I want to extend trust to people. Thank you.
This reminds me very much of the idea of Vindictive Triumph, such as what Karen Horney came up with. I have been the lifelong target of my mother who is a covetous psychopath. Absolutely envious to the point of rage & sadistic & endlessly vindictive. I enjoyed this video very much Dr. Grande. It is rare that I feel like someone is homing in on the type of person who has effectively almost completely demolished my life. The ruminating on her part has been endless. It is like the wheels of her mind are stuck in a gear to go after me in any way possible. I could literally write out pages of the vindictive strikes toward me. I want to add that many of the vindictive actions have been EXTREMELY creative. This is one reason of many reasons I clearly know of the level of rumination on her part. She can be both overt & also covert & sly,...like a curveball suddenly coming out of nowhere, however, it is obvious it took some planning on her part, such as weeks to months, even one horrible plan she had on the backburner for years. This line of attack has caused severe CPTSD. I never know for sure what can happen, which is not a peaceful way of living. Thanks again for your insightful video.
@TheNotsoignorant Thanks so much. It is very kind of you to reach out to me which such thoughtful words. I truly appreciate you taking the time to send me such a nice message.
Very educational, well planned out presentation, accurate, useful, and productive.
Hey Todd, would love to see a video on Narcissism and Self Awareness. Specifically how it pertains to hypocritical behavior. Are they aware of their hypocrisy and don't care, or are they unaware even when pointed out. I see that with a close person I suspect has narcissism that almost plays dumb, or walks away from a conversation when hypocritical behavior is pointed out. Is it deliberate or delusional?
My goodness. This is the perfect description of my husband's ex partner. Hubby and I were work buddies before she entered the scene, and he and I stayed in contact. Some other work buddies warned me about her and that she was jealous of me. When hubby finally left her, the chip on her shoulder got bigger. When we ended up together she became enraged, and still is 10 years later. She lied about having uterine cancer in a feeble attempt to get him back. Then she found a way to attack me with her newfound 'flying monkeys' in the Greyhound racing industry (because we opposed the cruel 'sport'). Then she began copying me. Creepy. She was relentless. Just a few weeks ago she DM'd some of my twitter followers gloating about me claiming 'victim' status because a drugged up neighbour coward-punched me and I nearly died. I view myself as a survivor - not a victim. It all makes sense since watching this video. I really had no idea how dangerous she was. Thank you for your help.
Thank you for your tape doctor. I listened to it, hopeing to see the angry, hurtful, hateful , narcissists that I had to raise She is totally vindictive , but does not fit this description. She is very intelligent, and very good at her manipulation . Of course as a small child, she got caught most of the time, because she was only a child, and the adults caught on to who the person was when she did horrible things. But even as child, she was so smart , so young, that when things happened the adult teachers and other adults who were around her, were shocked that she could be so shrewd at doing such horrible things, when she did not like a adult. I was her main target since she was four years old. It got worse and worse the older she got. Never once, was she sorry for any pain she caused me, or any other person she hurt. No feelings for any one but her self. Her anger at me, and pain given to me, got worse and worse because, I would not play her games, take her blame and I could see right through her. I think this is why I got all the back stabbing she did. She is a coward. Always seeking revenge, and always was behind my back. She became a 'woman", and still could never look me in the eye. But, she planned, plotted and executed all her plans to destroy me and my life. I am lucky to be alive to tell you this.
Strange to hear 4 yr old? Sounds like more going on in her metal health. Narscisism is a natural stage in childhood that is nurtured into developing empathy. Has she been diagnosed as a child if you saw problems then?
@ali She was strange alright! I have known many people in my life time, and no one I ever met had a child like mine. None. I spent years, and thousands of dolors taking her every single week to doctors so they could tell me what was wrong with her and how I could help her. I got no answers and I got no help. All they could tell me since she was 4 years old, which I already knew, was she was angry at me. But she was angry period. By 4 years old she was telling horrible, lies to people about things she made up and said I did to her. By 5 years old, she smacked her teacher in the face . She never saw violence in my home or on my TV. When the teachers or her mother corrected her, they all paid the price with her anger. 5 yrs old, when her teacher try to discipline her, she took the teachers glasses off her desk and stomped on them. It was me always paying the price in the end. I had to buy that woman new glasses .By 6 years old, she destryed a paint job, on a neighbors brand new car. I had to pay for that. I am no doctor and doctors could not help her or me, for me to understand so I don't know what her disorder was as a child, but I can tell you now, she is vindictive, narcissistic, and the most evil female I have ever known in my life time.
Wow. Thank you for your honesty and reply.now I am going to offer something that might help you. I know it has helped me beyond anything. There some thing called ‘human design’ developed by a very advanced being. Not new age garbage. It takes in everything. Everything that we were born with, which in your case you can see it wasn’t a development thing. You need the child’s time of birth and place, date. You can see exactly the child’s design. In a quick insight, you will see the child was born with 1 of 4 types of auras. The one I would imagine she is, is a manifestor aura. These people exhibit anger as a not self strategy. I am also a manifestor, I know how different it is. I’m not saying my out come was like hers, but many are. Usually not so early though. The others not self strategy’s are , bitterness, frustration and diseapointed. So if it is anger like you say, it may be that one? The thing is, only around 11% of the population is born with this aura type, and it is extremely hard to understand their needs or to teach them the same principles and character correctness as the standard. No doubt you experienced this!
You would have been misled by everyone on how to cope with her. If you go online on Jovian archives and fill in a chart for her we would know more? If for no other reason but to liberate yourself from the whole frustration and trauma associated with this life experience! If there’s a way for me to help you, I will do a chart up and we can see what you were dealing with. Maybe we can find a way to chat about it when we know?
I was one in six children with this aura. I have had 3 children, and two are manifestors. I have since fallen out with them as they have not understood their needs and are very angry hostile women! A disaster! This year I was liberated when I found the human design and it’s all as clear as can be. I can forgive myself, and forgive them for this outrageous hostile anger. Most of it bottled up and then explodes. I personally withdrew from people, that couldn’t understand my type, my anger was more implosive, self destructive. I am healing that now. I really wish that you too could be liberated from some thing that was beyond the understanding of the so called authority’s on such things. I really hear you when you say your lucky to be alive!! You have had the strength to know it was beyond you. Now I hope🙏 my wish 🙌🏽 for you to be given closure will liberate you in the heart and soul, allow you to feel like you did your absolute with a mysterious unknown and you finally know what was going on 🌸🌸 love to you my friend ❣️
Sounds like the "Bad Seed".
@Katherine Gadpaille Yes, sounds simply evil.
I've watched a good amount of videos on narcissism. This is the first one that covered a subtype called "Vindictive". With all the videos I watched, when I would attempt to compare my experience with my ex, the descriptions and examples were usually too extreme to say yes to. They all correlated but had good room for doubt. The most valuable point I got from this was the shock from pushback. From what I know, one would be hard pressed to get a narcissist to back down. I at one point stated that she was hyper sensitive. I explained why I would think that her take was excessive relative to what usually is taken by default. Ended up that it was a bad idea on my end. From then on she used it as a reference point when listing reasons why I'm at fault for something. She attempted gas lighting almost daily. I never had it get to me where I questioned my reality. It led me to research this topic so I could distinguish if we were a Narc & Codependent, Narc & secure, or Narc & Narc relationship. I settled with relaxed secure leaning codependent as where I'm at. Sometimes she would cry and state how if she were to be a narcissist she wouldn't be crying. Seemed to me as a viable reason to dispute the idea. Most fights, since they usually lasted a while, resulted with excusing myself and going to the garage to do something to take a break from fighting. Her behavior when I would come back in, most times was better, but I could sense that she is the exact same degree of upset. As if I hit pause on a video. Every point you had that explained the nuance of being between the two extremes was on point. The best part was, when in the middle of the spectrum, it doesn't automatically translate to being 50/50 on the traits of each type. Like being assertive with ontological attacks, getting push back, and then backing down. I understood that as being a reference of each extreme. Then adding that internally it's still there as a result of a mix of the types.
To me it comes off as possibly too close to "Covert", but "Subtle" is a prefix that I think would make good title for vindictive narcissist.
To me the term is getting overrepresented in news as being quite common. Later downplaying its claim with everybody has some degree of these traits.
After a couple years I think this was the final video that confirmed my thoughts that she was a narcissist. I appreciate your approach with your videos. They're direct almost to the point of being "dry", but have a dash of subjective relation that balances it. You come off as having a earnest investment making sure the proper message is getting understood.
With everything said, ironically it doesn't help that she is an INFP. (As a non-legitimate, unofficial add on.)
Please when you can if you would elaborate more on the "Vindictive" type I would appreciate it a lot.
9 out of the 10 fit my experience as a victim of a vindictive narcissist. My sister-in-law's revenge against me was to separate my brother from me. (I can only assume that she was very threatened by the close relationship we had growing up. All his previous girlfriends found our close relationship to be an endearing quality of his, but the one he married has despised me from day one). Her smear campaign against me to their children and anyone else who doesn't know me well enough to counter her lies, doesn't feel sloppy or ineffective; I think she's pretty good at manipulation.
I have been a victim of narcissists and I feel very vengeful and as a result of the trauma ruminate a lot but I am no narcissist 🥴.
💯The same, some of these vids contradict themselves because trauma victims ruminate and feel anger 4 what the narcissist does which is basically calling u a vulnerable narcissist
Siobhan Fogarty : So true I have much reason for vengeance on a couple of people ,but I have well moved on in life and it only comes to mind once in a blue moon when someone or something reminds me of the time & pain that was wasted with them.
The feeling usually is just fleeting because I have so many other things in life that I am either responsible for or that I am enjoying ,or even just mellowed out with friends or myself that I don't care or even have time to even recall most of it all.
That's pretty common, but at least you understand what is happening. The narc doesn't. They feel entitled to revenge.
The difference is that a narcissist will act upon it in a way that hurts others. if you channel your anger into something else you’re probably all good.
The best revenge is living the best life and as free from them as possible. So far, so good here.
Wow! My Mother is a vindictive narcissist! Good Stuff!!! Very easy to understand to the layperson! Kudos!
You are so right. I know narcissism, grandiose, vindictive, and it's awful to experience it. I wonder how you have so much insight beyond the DSM descriptions. I wonder if like me, you have experienced it too. Thank you.
Fantastic video Dr. Grande. Thanks so much for making these. Your time and expertise is appreciated.
You're welcome 🙂
I have to admit I'm so scared I'm labeled some sort of narcissistic because there's so many different types out there. Everybody and their brother is being labeled some sort of narcissistic nowadays. It affects my life so bad, I feel I'm overcompensating for something I might not even be . I'm so damn confused 😞😢😢
Because everyone is narcissistic. It’s human nature to give yourself a level of self importance. It’s just when people take it to extremes that it becomes an issue .
You presented this 3 years ago, but it describes my mother 103 years old today :dominance in every conversation ,takes over everybody's business. Must be heard over everyone else must be the right one for all people in all situations..unless she hates you. And yes just as you said she thinks a while before she strikes rethinking her self pity experience..Oh I adore her! she's like a walking psychology course. So much to learn, if one can rise above the entangled web of feelings