A Theological Review of That All Shall be Saved with Chris Green & Brad Jersak | Episode 35
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2019
- Since we believe the release of David Bentley Hart’s That All Shall be Saved is a significant event, we felt like it deserved a significant review! And who better to do it than these two distinguished professors and our dear friends, Chris Green, professor of theology at Southeastern University (and author of Surprised by God, The End is Music, Sanctifying Interpretation, & Toward a Pentecostal Theology of the Lord’s Supper) and Brad Jersak (Her Gates Will Never Be Shut, A More Christlike God, A More Christlike Way, IN: Incarnation & Inclusion, Abba & Lamb). We share our thoughts on Hart’s book, eternal conscious torment, inclusion, whether or not the language of universalism is helpful, and much more!
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Edited and produced by Reese Black
the reason people say things like, "if we're all saved why does it matter?" is because of doctrines like penal substitutionary atonement. they've been taught to frame their entire christian perspective through the lens of that bloody economy such that they don't think of Jesus as someone they commune with to have life and to enjoy, but someone they need in order to keep from being killed by God for disobedience. penal substitution reduces christ to a means of avoiding punishment rather than an end in Himself.
Well said.
Conan the Septuagenarian I guess you don't understand the Gospel. "in order to keep from being killed by God for disobedience." Which verse says that people are killed?
@@anahata3478 I disagree with the heresy of annihilation, which the Bible rejects.
"Ever heard of annihilationism?" Yes, I've heard of the false teaching of annihilation, which speaks of being destroyed, not being killed. I guess you have only JUST heard of this heresy, and you don't appear to understand it.
Amen!
I often feel like a secret heretic. You guys give me hope that these ideas are worth sharing.
JOIN THE CLUB LOL
Same here.
Your in good company Luke.
I'm with ya
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.. -----2 tim 4.3
If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Bently hart is a heretic and a wolf, so if you follow him, your feeling is right.....you are also a hertic. Hart is providing false comfort to the unrepentant sinner and he will answer for that. he is preventing people from coming to jeuss so to have thier sin washed away and escape the wrath of god to come. ---
Just listening to this now and your last question is addressing my exact problem. My get it in my head, but can't get it down into my heart because again and again I come against scriptures that seem to say sooo clearly the exact opposite of what I want to believe, even hearing it from Jesus and the patristic fathers, especially Chrysostom. I continue to feel lost and confused...but still praying and searching.
I enjoyed the discussion. I'm a convert to Orthodoxy from a Charismatic Evangelical background. I became convinced of the truth of universal reconciliation as a Protestant, in part due to George MacDonald's Unspoken Sermons and the homilies of St Isaac of Nineveh, but Hart's ontological arguments really hit it out of the park. (I believe he'd appreciate the baseball metaphor.)
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, is not a threat. It’s a promise.
yes....sadly 'infernalists' use it as a threat
@@englandshope689 Indeed. They say it like a threat, when really it's talking about one of the greatest events literally _ever_ that I sorely hope I can have the immeasurable honor to participate in.
Maybe, you should finish the verse and state the context.
@@Spartanthermopylae Philippians 2:9 For which reason God also exalted him on high and graced him with the name that is above every name, 10 So that at the name of Jesus every knee-of beings heavenly and earthly and subterranean-should bend, 11 And every tongue gladly confess that Jesus the Anointed is Lord, for the glory of God the Father.
The New Testament (pp. 392-393). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.
Please enlighten me on what the rest of the verse supposedly says, and in which context it's supposedly in.
@@Jordan-hz1wr Answer your own questions; Universalism isn't Christian.
Even though I currently subscribe to annihilationism, I’m really starting to understand how universalism with the purification of hell fire is a really very interesting concept and possibly actually brings the most justice out of all options. Thank you so much for this very interesting conversation!
Wow just getting to the end now, so so many very powerful arguments presented here! I have this book, but haven’t read it yet, I think it’s time now!
BOW 66 I’ve already wholeheartedly embraced universalism now :))) the UA-cam channel the victory of Christ really helped me. It’s wonderful!
BOW 66 yes I did :) his work made it really really obvious!
Even if Universalism is false?
@@thatwhichhasbeen-isthatwhi6575 Not sure the point of this half quote from the Bible. Universalism is a false teaching.
To Chris's point, the fact is that the scriptures were indeed written in a certain time, within a certain context. I would love to see Hart write a book on how we all can get at that context and understand it better. I'm sure that could be an entire college course all on it's own, but something I would love to see Hart tackle!
Amen
Chris is just one of my favorite people in the world. Jonathan we met once at a conference in Houston where both you and Chris spoke. Thank you for introducing me to Dr. Jersak through this video, I will have to add him to my list of "must read" theologians.
Really digging this convo, halfway im reminded of how in CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Aslan takes his sharp claws tears away the Dragon skin that is deeply embedded into Eustace. It was painful to endure this saving work of Aslan but incredibly redemptive.
Holy hell I never thought of the meaning until your comment. Powerful imagery.
I loved hearing your commentary about the book, which I just finished reading. But I especially loved meeting the three of you! What wonderful men you are 💚💚💚
We really enjoyed this discussion. Thanks guys so much.
What a theologically brilliant podcast!
Chris Green & Brad Jersak are spectacular in this video.
Thank you Mr. Martin for your efforts and excellent moderation.
~Steven of Montreal
Even though it's unbiblical.
@@Spartanthermopylae
Actually "Ultimate Reconciliation" can be proven in the Scripture, or in the Bible, but I suspect you don't know the difference, Mr. 300.
@@stevenfrasier5718 Are you going to go into another meltdown, as you've done on others sites, like Melissa's, and throw your toys out of the play pen.
You've been challenged, several times, on this and run away every time.
"but I suspect you don't know the difference, " Of course, you're always right...even when you've been continually proven to be wrong. You never admit your inaccuracies and false arguments.
@@Spartanthermopylae
You're a slave to religion, poor fellow. Contention is all you know if anyone thinks differently. And remember, you were BLOCKED from Melissa's channel. I'm still there. It's not about "challenge"--stop engaging in hostility, and at least try to learn what the other views are. I'm not out to hurt you, so why are you behaving in a less than Christ-like manner? Why the persistent animosity? Melissa and I see the LOVE. All you keep seeing is Condemnation. I know that both you and I are saved.
~Steven of Montreal
steven frasier...do you think so, Stevo?
Great discussion. This is the first time I have come across this channel and watched a video. I will definitely be subscribing and checking out more content.
Wow. This was a genuinely wonderful experience.
Wow this is GOLD!!! The first conversation on hell that fully makes sense to me ❤️🔥
oh this makes me so happy to hear!! And while we don't talk about it here, I have also read many death/near death accounts...and yes, this makes much more sense of people's first person experiences, too!
Excellent and thought provoking
Most "Christians" loathe DB Hart, as he removes from them the prejudices and petty hatreds they cling to.
You mean God's Love and Justice as per The Scriptures!
@@Spartanthermopylae Ah yes because God can only love someone if that person loves God back. If not, then all love flies out of the window and Gods Justice kicks into action, which means you may now rot in hell forever. lol. What a psychopath!
@@payt01 What has any of this got to do with my statement???
'What a psychopath!'...your words not mine...total blasphemy!!
@@itisnow "God says he is LOVE not love and justice. " It's ALWAYS fantastic to speak to people - such as yourself - who claim to know the Bible and yet make false claims and are reduced to making personal attacks with no substance and foundation.
So, God is not justice...I assume you mean, God is not just. If you knew your Bible at all, you would discover that "Justice" is one of God’s attributes and flows out of His holiness. Justice and righteousness are often used synonymously in the Bible. Since righteousness is the quality or character of being right or just, it is another attribute of God and incorporates both His justice and holiness. It seems your 'god' isn't just, since He doesn't have justice. We cannot begin to understand God’s justice unless we first understand sin. Sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4) and iniquity (Daniel 9:4-5; Micah 2:1; James 3:6). It embodies everything contrary to God’s holy nature and is offensive to Him. Thus, sin is a crime against God, and justice demands a penalty of death and separation from Him for it (Romans 1:18-32; 2:5; 3:23). But God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to pay that penalty for us (Romans 5:8-11; 6:23) and made salvation available to all who believe in His name (John 1:12; 3:15-17; 20:31). God’s own righteousness [Justice] is provided as a gift to sinners who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and is based upon His grace and mercy in response to our faith (Romans 3:23-26; Ephesians 2:3-7). His mercy and grace are not in spite of His justice, but because of it. He loved us so much that despite the fact that our sin demands our death, He sent His Son to be our substitute upon the cross, thus demonstrating that His justice was not violated, but instead satisfied (1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9). Having been made in His image (Genesis 1:26-27), we humans long for moral justice to prevail upon the earth and are outraged when we see injustice [ the opposite of God's "Justice"] happening around us. Why do we seek justice for crimes? It’s in our DNA. King David’s outrage when the poor man’s lamb was taken away by the rich man resonates within us (2 Samuel 12:1-14). That is why Nathan told the story to David in the first place because it revealed David’s own injustice in taking Uriah’s wife from him. David’s immediate repentant prayer was effective because by admitting his sin against God, he acknowledged the righteousness of God. The Lord told David through the prophet Nathan that even though his sin was forgiven, the child resulting from the adulterous affair would die, demonstrating the fact that his sin still had to be judged. As for the future, the book of Revelation reveals the justice [or righteousness] of God in all its glory during the end times...the "justice" YOUR version of Your god doesn't have. When the saints watch the destruction of the earth, their song will be of God’s righteous judgement upon the inhabitants for their ultimate sin of rejecting Him (Revelation 11:16-18; 15:3-4; 16:7; 19:1-4). And as 2 Peter 3:13 says, we are promised that someday, when Christ physically reigns on earth, God’s 'righteous justice' will finally be on full display.
If your false belief were true, the Cross, and Jesus' Death, Burial and Resurrection would ALL have been in vain.
@@payt01 False statement, and not based on Scripture. 1 John 4:19 says, "We love because God loved us first." God's love came FIRST. You obviously don't read your Bible.
Brilliant!!!
Don't know what else to say - simply brilliant!
I'm not Eastern Orthodox, but that story to which Brad referred about St. Siloam that convinced me of this truth. It's really hard to grasp and accept, but it is something I know for certain to be ultimately true.
One thought I could add to the final comments (concerning the two parables) is what Christ says at the start of the parable of the lost sheep. His opening words are "What man of you" (i.e. would not do this)? This ties in nicely with the comments made about the bland (or fearful) acceptance of what others say about God in support of traditional eschatological teaching. Here, I believe, Christ is not only permitting us, but positively encouraging us, to employ our own God-given conscience - not to mention, common sense! - on these matters. He then confirms our intuition with the exquisitely simple, yet profound, story of the Good Shepherd leaving the "found" flock to look for the single "lost" sheep. Moreover he will continue (to look) "until he finds it"! This surely is a firm foundation on which to base any search of the Scriptures (and our hearts) "to see if these thing be so." Thank you gentlemen...a very enjoyable discussion.
Dang, this was such a good and refreshing interview and book review. Thank you
I so appreciate this-thrilled that it spoke to you! One of my favorite conversations ever personally :)
This description of hell really aligns with so many of the near death experiences I have listened to❤
That was great
The discussion around the term "universalism" is interesting. I really admire Robin Parry in his wilingness to stay the course with the term, coupled with his commitment to explaining what HE means by that term. After all, don't most theological positions and the associated terms require careful and detailed explanation?
That's certainly the case for intellectuals willing to hear a person out, but it's more of a marketing problem at the popular level. Even though universalism is a position consistent with orthodoxy, the universalist "brand" is tainted by its historical association with some serious heterodoxies. Embracing the label can shut down a conversation and lead people to dismiss you as a "liberal" not worth listening to. That's the argument anyway. It's probably more of an issue for clergy who would face a lot of pushback.
@@ElasticGiraffe I think that in the field of theology there is hardly any term or idea that hasn't been disputed over or condemned by somebody. The problem with the field of theology is some terms defy definition because of their history. Take words like "baptism", "communion", "evangelism" and a hundred more. Are these terms universally agreed on as to what they are or should be? I suggest that there is probably NO theological term that is uncontrovertial, or does not require clarification. So for me, I will just wear the responsibility to explain what I mean by the term "universal reconciliation" and be done with it.
We are not "saved" through having a perfect suite of doctrinal theories, but through our experience we have of our union with Christ-Logos. Everything else is simply the blind leading the blind.
Amazing guys. Your answering questions that I struggled to silently articulated to myself for fear of jumping on the heresy train of apostacy.
Thanks for the show.
Tim Proffit I’m so fed up of modern “Christianity “ and it’s judgemental attitudes, I find being labelled a “heretic” a small price to pay to be free of it.
@@jasonahdjfhsdfg What's "modern “Christianity ?“
Spartan 300 Protestantism, focus on sin. Hell fire and damnation preaching. Basically making God look to be this evil tyrant. Fed up up if being labelled a sinner because I smoke. Modern “Christianity” is a joke. Funny thing is they’re all so focussed on the end times, but none of them have the discernment to discern what Jesus told us when he said many false prophets will arise and deceive many.
@@jasonahdjfhsdfg Well, I'm a Christian, not a Protestant, Jason. What is the difference regarding 'less modern' Christianity?
Spartan 300 I wasn’t referring to you mate. Well if we are truly in end times, then ancient Christianity was completely different. As I said Jesus told us that many false prophets will arise and deceive many. And that’s what’s happened. True Christianity is not preaching from a bible, it’s about a relationship with God. A loving caring relationship, that is unfailing and one where God doesn’t see your sins. True faith in him, faith that he’s got every second of your life planned out. Faith that you won’t die until God says you will die. When I told my pastor this he told me I was preaching prosperity. Jesus was right again when he said “when the son of man returns will he find faith on earth?”. So little true love for humanity and our fellow man. So much judgmental attitudes, so much preaching about the “wicked”, so little true love for God and our fellow man.
I for one needed and totally enjoyed the rhetorical punchiness to overcome the psychological and emotional weight of a lifetime of infernalism.
oh Lord--I hear this, LOL!!! A LIFETIME. It affects absolutely everything!!!
In lieu of "universalist," perhaps we could consistently employ "reconciliationist" or "ultimate reconciliationist." It automatically leans toward the universalistic scope of salvation, while conveying that it is God's providential will, not ours, which leads humanity back to the God who made men, saves men, and restores them via grace--unmerited favor; it is accomplished ONLY through the mercy displayed in the redemptive work of Christ.
Even of Universalism is a heresy and unscriptural?
@@Spartanthermopylae , ah, but it IS very Scriptural; it's all over the Bible. And guess what? many, if not most, believers in the first 5 centuries of Christianity believed this doctrine. . .
ua-cam.com/video/CntOam2_OyQ/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/ni7KI0RrCqE/v-deo.html
@@AlyoshaKaramazov. "but it IS very Scriptural" Total nonsense!!
"many, if not most, believers in the first 5 centuries of Christianity believed this doctrine" Which is it...many or most? If you say 'most' then you don't know church history. Sending me videos is a waste of time. Challenge with Scripture.
@@Spartanthermopylae , but I DID challenge you with Scripture-that's what is shown in those videos. Now, keep in mind that I am not referring to some New-Age or pagan, anything-goes sort of universalism, where all religions take you to God and heaven; I am referring to a reconcilation that will be accomplished in Christ, through his merits alone. . .Alright, then, since you asked for Scriptural proofs, I will select a few of the MANY Scriptures that support Apokatastasis (Greek word used in Scripture which means reconciliation) [my emphasis in capital letters].
John 12:32 “ '...And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.' ” [not just some people]
1 Corinthians 15:28 "When ALL things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in ALL."
Ephesians 1:9-10 "…making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."
Phillippians 2:9-11 "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER."
[I ask you: How can God the Father be glorified by forced subjection? No, all will eventually recognize and receive his love, in the fulness of times, after all the judgments are completed (which are eonian, not endless or everlasting. How do we know that? Because the Greek word used in the New Testament is "aionios," which refers to a limited duration, as opposed to an eternal damnation).
Colossians 1:16, 19-20 16 "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-ALL THINGS WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself ALL THINGS, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."
1 Timothy 2:4 "This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who DESIRES ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 4:9-11 "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living GOD, WHO IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL PEOPLE, especially of those who believe."
1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD."
20:00 I believe the way Hope is used Biblically would be a confident expectation. Definitely more robust than common usage today.
Fascinating conversation, I would love to get a list of the texts referenced in this conversation for further study. :)
I believe in the ultimate salvation of all. Hell and misery exists here on Earth, in this life. To follow Christ wholeheartedly in this life, means you can escape Hell and misery in the here and now. You can receive the promises of Christ now. You won’t have to pass through the fire to get to Heaven. That’s the motivation for following Jesus now... to escape the necessity of having to pass through the fire of purification to reach heaven. Paul clearly teaches this.
.
Thank you SO MUCH for mentioning Marilynne Robinson!!!!!
You guys are great. New subscriber
Hi, I am new to this topic and discussion. I have never shared the gospel with people and saw hell as punishment but a choice. I think of what Dallas Willard says about Hell, is that maybe Hell is the best he could do for someone. Looking forward to listening to these men.
Yes, this calls to mind C.S. Lewis’ locked from the inside motif…and I love Dallas. For a deeper dive, I’ve found Brad’s book on hell to be endlessly helpful! (Haha--“endless”)
You know you're in Pentecostal company when every response to every statement is "wow...".
Ed feser says that the soul chooses hell. But if our souls were made in god's image, why should we not think that souls essentially will the good as god does, and so when we die, we shed our habitiations both to vice and to virtue, because habits are accidental properties that are tied with our material bodies (ex. Hard wiring in the brain, muscle memory, physical addiction and dependency to drugs, etc) so in the absence of negative habituations, we eternally will the good.
I like these guys!
These guys embody Pathos, Ethos, AND Logos. Good stuff. 100!
"We need different language." AGREED! Of course, this is the problem of literally every age.
"Freed will" may be the solution to "God is not willing that any should perish" (2 Pet 3:9). I have a problem in thinking that someone's "will" will take precedent over God's will.
" The 'Fire of (God's) love' is effective" !
Ultimate redemption is my new favorite phrase.
I know it's so helpful, right?! I just feel like it cuts through a lot.
@@thezeitcastwithjonathanmar5465 yes always looking for new ways to communicate an ancient story about God
I would really like to receive a link to Chris Green's review of TASBS that you mention in the podcast.
afkimel.wordpress.com/2019/10/09/god-is-heaven-god-is-hell-a-review-of-that-all-shall-be-saved/
Y'all can say what you want about Hart's "endearing" tone, but watching this (as compared to Hart's interview on @Reason & Theology) lemme say that if Chris had been the author of the book, I'd have bought the book by yesterday! . As he suggested I do hope more 'pastorally'-focused books come out on the topic
Paul Molnar’s 12/30/2021 book-
*Freedom, Necessity, and the Knowledge of God: in Conversation with Karl Barth and Thomas F. Torrance*-takes on that DB Hart shall be sure of his arguments.
❤
I watch this probably once a month. Please return to doing this type of video content Jonathan. The church is desperate
😭 In all kinds of ways timing wise, and for all kinds of reasons…this feels like a very direct prompting from the Holy Spirit. Thank you-I really am going to do that, and feel what you said very deeply.
@@thezeitcastwithjonathanmar5465 I'm glad. Among others, your content was formative in basically saving my faith. A young man living in obscurity all the way down in little New Zealand. I hope and pray your next season of content creating will do the same for others. Blessings.
Chris looks and sounds like David Wood's calmer brother.
"Apokatastasis" might work...
Aren't we being lukewarm if we don't teach universal salvation as doctrine and condemn infernalism as a heresy and instead opt to this well... lukewarm solution of live and let live? No offense or anything.
Universalism is the only thing that deals with my fears. Fear of FEARS!
So it comforts you that Hitler, Mao, and Stalin are in heaven? What about child molesters?
"Woe to me if I do not evangelize. I am obligated to do so." (Paraphrasing)
38:00 Brad has succeeded in terrifying me about heaven!
Everyone here needs, NEEDS to read The Gospel of Inclusion by Carlton Pearson, especially when God spoke to CARLTON one night about Hell. As God says to Carlton Pearson “We redeemed and reconciled ALL OF HUMANITY AT CALVARY.This is what the cross was and IS ALL ABOUT”
What about the “Harrowing of Hell” from the Eastern Orthodox ancient church.
Not all will. I could be wrong, but even though people may get a second chance in hades, they may still reject it.
Has the interview with Hart been removed? I don't see it in the list anymore.
Ooh! We never had this one on video, but should still be in audio feed-are you not finding audio version?
Will try to post a link here: open.spotify.com/episode/5T8QzmjHGRE2VsH5PCj7Ee?si=h8G4ZckvQNefHWOwI56r1w
Thank you! I just *knew* I had watched it but I guess I just listened to it. Thank you.
What about people who committed apostasy or the sin of the holy spirit?
Wow...a lot of weigth on this conversation ;)
I’m a Christian struggling with fear, and anxiety of Hell, Fear and punishment, even though God has a kind side. If it’s not about love what’s the point? I’m a Brit ,so I’m not familiar with American cultural obsession with Hell, even in the slang language, as in the movies!
Please expand with the difference of moralism and holy? How is it different?
karla Sears moralism is how we act. Holiness is a gift bestowed on us by God.
Good deeds flow out of holiness out of their own power as it were. It may still be hard but it's unstopable, love simply flows over. In contrast the moralist may or may not do good. And if the moralist acts moved by the fear of punishment or the desire for reward, they are not really doing good.
So many want to preach the gospel instead of live the gospel. It’s much easier to tell a poor man to belive in Jesus than it is to give him your shirt and shoes.
He needs both.
“God’s not gonna give up on those people” (who have died without believing) 1:10:55. The following is just from a Wikipedia page I have a screenshot of.. “Author David Burnfield defends the post mortem view that, God continues to evangelise people after they die. cf 1Chron 16:34, Isa 9:2, Mt 12:32, Rom 8:35-39, Eph 4:8-9, 1Pet 3:18-20, 4-6.” There can be no ‘loose ends’ once the ages have run their course.
God's love doesn't quit and expire just cause we do.
See "Ra Material: The Law of One" for insight into how the justice of God works according to his Mercy and human free will toward the salvation for all.
Couldn't help but chuckle when you talked about Lilith. George MacDonald will do that to you.
18:00👍
The only possible options are Annihilationism and Universalism: of the two Annihilationism has way more biblical support. I honestly don't see Universalism in the Bible. I agree that ECT is just horrific.
The best title might be “restorationalist”
Very good. So we've got Restorationism, Damnationism and Annihilationism.
A few arcane alternatives: apokatastasist, paliggeneticist, anakainosist. 3 big Bible words for one who believes Salvation of All.
Well, "restorationism" is already applied to many Protestant or quasi-Protestant sects (e.g., Adventists, Mormons) that emerged in the 19th century, fringe groups that thought "mainstream" Christianity had strayed or lost its purity, and they were getting back to the way the primitive church believed and practiced the faith. So, that might not be the best term.
"The best title might be “restorationalist”" Or, how about demonic, as a title?
hmm, sounds like 'communist'.....why not i believe in 'ultimate restoration of all things '?
Good review. Though i don't know any (serious) universalist who denies sin or escatalogical judgment or the cross or tge incarnation or ressurrction or any of that. People who do are a minority in the universalist camp. I think you're confusing Christian universalism with pluralism a very common mistake.
I have argued for making Universal Salvation compatible with the KJV readings.
Isaac the Syrian was a Nestorian.
Isaac the Syrian read the KJV.
@@johnnyhaigs243 No he didn't, those two lines of my comment are commenting on different parts of the video.
@@Kuudere-Kun... how can you be a Christian without reading the KJV 1611 AUTHORISED Edition?? He must have read from that.
@@johnnyhaigs243 I feel like you're making that comment to mock KJV onlier because you think I am one. I'm not.
Even if it's unbiblical?
I liked Rohr's Christian non-dualist. But I'm not sure its a term that will catch on.
The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer a lot for.
Y'all could have talked for three hours and i would have enjoyed all of it.
I can’t be a secret “heretic” in my church. The Hell thing is troubling to me, here in England Hell is a pagan word from the Viking culture invading into England’s history. Only their HEL was cold.
I will listen, but doesn't scripture teach that many will not INHERIT the kingdom and destruction of the wicked, second death, etc. Definitely disagree with eternal torment, but destruction of the wicked.
plse research n pray..u'll find Truth....God redeems ALL ultimately tho some will experience loss tho their spirit is saved
God is also righteous and holy. His attributes cannot be separated.
DID GOD REALL SAY?
They never deal with babies or children . .and an absurd afterlife for them.
how does the song go you have to go thru hell before you get to heaven
God’s Eternal Purpose VS God’s Eonian Purpose.
The word PURPOSE by itself, hints at something that has limits.
If my “purpose” is to fix the broken toilet, then I must get started, do all that’s needed and then finish… my “purpose”.
To suggest that God’s “purpose” has no beginning and no end… is to create fog, confusion, and toss out the meanings of words.
Eph 3:11 is not talking about “God’s eternal purpose”… but instead, it’s talking about “God’s eonian purpose.”
The mistake came when John Wycliffe created the very first English Bible. All he had access to was the Latin translation of the bible. And this Latin version of the bible was from the 3rd century. And… in the 3rd century Latin, the words “eternuam” and “secularum” were synonyms… often used interchangeably.
John Wycliffe did not know this. So, when Wycliffe got to the word “secularum” he used the English word “world” (secular = world, get it?)
But he had never seen this word “eternuam” before… so he made up a new English word = “eternal”.
Thus, we get biblical references to the “end of the world”… and we might never know that we’d also get “the end of the ‘eternaums”… NOTE: IT’S THE SAME WORD synonyms… WORLD, AND ETERNAL… BOTH ARE LIMITED IN SCOPE.
In Eph 3:11, Paul is speaking of God’s “EONIAN” purpose. The Greek word is AIONIOUS. (A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, BUT NOT “ENDLESS”)
“ETERNAL” is a made up word. It’s a mistake John Wycliffe made.
So, now, the great question is, WHAT IS GOD’S EONIAN PURPOSE?
Gene Edwards and Witness Lee would have us believe that “God’s eternal purpose” is to have a “church” or “corporate man” that rules and reigns with Christ “eternally”.
Not gonna happen. Why? Because Christ himself does not ‘rule and reign eternally”.
PROOF: I Cor 15:25. There we see that eventually Christ will ABOLISH all rule… ABOLISH all authority… AND ABOLISH all power… including his own RULE, AUTHORITY, AND POWER… “For he must reign UNTIL” (I Cor 15:25)… Did you see that? Did you see the word UNTIL????
Christ doesn’t reign “for ever and ever” he reigns UNTIL something happens.
He reigns UNTIL his 4 enemies are abolished. The first 3 enemies are rulership, authority and power… and the final enemy is DEATH.
And when the final enemy (death, the wages of sin,) is abolished, Then God will be all in all.
NOTE: as long as God is “NOT” all in all, you’ll need rule, authority, power, and even the wages of sin… but once all that is put away, God becomes “all in all”… not “all in some”… not “some in some”…. Not “some in all”…
But ALL IN ALL.
The Church has a special but temporary place in God’s purpose.
Read more here:
acetheologicalco.wordpress.com/2020/02/11/gods-eternal-purpose-vs-gods-eonian-purpose/
The GK for “until” in this context does not denote an action that comes to an end, but one that continues. There is a different GK term also translated “until” that has the connotation you infer.
God rules forever because His rule is not a worldly Lording it over someone: it is part of Who He is by nature as sovereign.
@@lornadoone8887 Are you saying that authority, power, rule and death will remain, because "until" does not mean "until" ???
Romans 10:9 For all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved . Salvation is a choice you choose to accept Jesus in this life or you choose to reject Jesus . The choice is yours everyone has the free will to choose . Again salvation is a choice we all have the free will to accept Gods plan of salvation which is accepting the Lord Jesus Christ . The Bible is clear about it . In Revelation Ch 20 it says all names not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire . The Bible is clear there is a hell and those who reject Jesus will go there . You cannot wish hell away it is a real place !
free will can be limited by circumstance so it only takes u so far....in the bible fire is a cleansing testing purifying agent and the lake o fire is just that and more
"Christian Universalist"
we are truly in the end times and the apostles are warning us about [people like hart, rob bell, -the emergent church, the seeker friendly church 2 Peter 2:1-3 ESV /
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
JUDGEMENT DAY IS COMING! SINNERS SEEK THE LORD! JESUS SAID BEHOLD I STAND AT THE DOOR AND KNOCK, OPEN THE DOOR OF YOUR HEART!
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2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the BOOKS WERE OPENED.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED: AND ANOTHER BOOK WAS OPENED, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 AND WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Yes, and then in the book of revelation, those that went through the lake of fire were invited back into the city if they washed their garments clean. Not literal sir but figurative, particularly the passages on the lake of fire. The wages of sin is DEATH, not endless suffering.
@@je4754 I wish what you said was true but you have no scriptures to support what you said. Please defend your position using Bible verses only? I don't want your own opinion! Let the Bible speak because everything I say is supported by scripture! There is a third type of death in scripture that is different from spiritual death, and physical death we experience in this life. Spiritual death is when a Christian turns back to his old sinful ways, and follows Jesus Christ no more. Physical dead is when we die and go to our grave. The second death this is known as eternal death, that's after the judgment of God. In the Book of Revelation we read.
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The one who has an ear, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death (Revelation 2:11).
Unless spiritual death is reversed in this life, the result will be eternal death. This is unending separation between God and all who reject Him. Believers are not affected by the second death.
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Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:6).
The final judgment, or the lake of fire, is the time when the second death occurs.
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Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14).
The second death is reserved for unbelievers. Those who experience this death are all those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life.
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But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death (Revelation 21:8).
Eternal death, or the second death, is the ultimate form of separation. If a person dies in a state of spiritual death, they enter eternity separated from God. This is the second death. Once a person has experienced the "second death" there is no hope for them, it is irreversible. Physical death is the separation of the body from the spirit. Spiritual death, the way all of us are born, is the spiritual separation of each of us from God. Eternal death, or the second death, is the eternal separation of a person from God. There is no escape from the second death. There is no third resurrection mentioned in all of scripture that can bring back the ungodly people! It's over!
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Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.