Why Do Christians Abandon the Faith? (And What Can We Do About It)
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- Опубліковано 8 лип 2024
- Why are we hearing stories of an increasing number of recognizable, Christian leaders leaving their faith? What is behind this phenomena? In this video, I interview John Marriott-an expert and author in the area of deconversion.
READ: The Anatomy of Deconversion (amzn.to/3dqJwh0)
LISTEN: The Antamy of Deconversion (Think Biblically Podcast) www.biola.edu/blogs/think-bib...
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I disagree with Sean on some things, but I really admire his humility, sincerity, compassion, and respect for people. He's a classy guy.
Absolutely!
That’s why atheists really respect this guy. His humility is really unmatched in the apologist community.
I'm a lifelong atheist, and I completely agree. Sean is pretty awesome and I will be watching more of his videos. I've been reading into all of this, various religions, for over 40 years and Sean is one of the very few who made rational sense to me. He has the ability to speak across the divide, even when that's not his intent.
So is his dad
He is very humble, and asks great questions, love his podcasts, even the facial expression on screen shows something genuine about him.
The fatherlessness point was interesting to me. I was raised agnostic/atheist, I've been struggling to come to Christianity for 3 decades and just recently made it. But in the trinity I was finding it impossible to connect with the concept of "Father". My own father asked my mum to abort me and I never got so much as a birthday card from him, my mother's partner who I have known since I was 6 y/o made a show out of rejecting me and not wanting to be a father to me. I simply have no idea what a father is; what a father would do, what even the point of a father is. In my life the only constant people (as flawed as even they were) were women. But what is helping me understand more is reading all the verses in the Bible about how God is the husband of the widow and the father to the fatherless. That gives me some hope that I can come to understand this aspect of God. I thought I would pass that on in case it helps another fatherless person
You have a valid point that I believe many are wrestling with. Yes, the important thing is to look at the Father as descrbed by Jesus - that is a good point of reference.stay strong.
good advice. we should only rely on christs example, because he never fails. the second we follow any man, eventually he will fall. Jesus knows this. that's why he tells us to forgive everyone.
This revelation can be helpful to so many
It is the expression of useless/careless men. It is also why the idea of patriarchal authority is foolishness. I grew up with an absent father (to a large extent). Not all men are that way but situations like this are why some women hate men because men don’t act as fathers and husbands except to the degree they can command women to take care of them. I still loved my father but he never did understand or care about his responsibility as father. At the same time, I saw what my mother went through raising the 3 of us and saw what dad was doing and said, “no way will I ever have children.” And I have stood by that to the age that having children doesn’t have meaning anymore. Thank God for that! I avoided all of the problems, arguments, bitterness, resentment, and anger of childhood and parenthood. I thank God for that.
❤️
I am just now watching this. I am not in a good place spiritually and cannot say I believe anything of my former faith, currently. This video was excellent. I think Christians who have concerns and need to understand should definitely watch this. Sean McDowell is IMHO one of my favorite Christian apologists. Much respect also to his guest (I do not know him at all, but his presentation and objectivity were very impressive to me). Thanks so much for videos like these, even if I don't know where I will wind up, I have nothing but respect for this presentation of Christianity.
Thanks Byron. I’m so glad it was helpful.
The thing that has always helped me thru the times I've wrestled with my faith vs what I've experienced is that I cannot lean on my own understanding of anything, I have to trust that this thing that I don't understand or I find offensive because I am not all knowing but God is so you have to boil it down to having faith in Jesus and do I believe that He has MY best in mind so He will bring me clarity to the thing I'm struggling with... ♥︎
Thank you for your honesty. I’ve been a Christian for 30 years and my life has had seasons of ups and downs…
what I have learnt is that “God does work things for good for those who love him” however it is always my choice to blame others - (even God) or allow pain to seep in and pull me away from God… what is a great comfort, is knowing “he will never leave me … nor forsake me” … and I just have to let him in during those tough times … not beat myself up, and feel unworthy of his love
@@Standing.W.Israel good point. I've been a christian for 47 years and god has never let me down, but boy have I let him down at times! I really believe that much of western christianity is self serving and we don't want anything to do with suffering. the parable of the sower really shows this. we are called to carry our cross daily, and that's not impossible. jesus is our example. he suffered horribly, yet was faithful to the end. we should never follow man, because eventually he will fail. I find that the reasons for " deconstructing" are really pathetic. how many of them ever look at their own sins? it's like it's always someone else's fault. then they will say that they are more free than ever before by renouncing christ. they are lieing to themselves, and then when you look at their lives, you see that they are aimless.
this was a great video. I really related. I became a christian in 1979 and really tried to follow God; bible study, church all the time, serving, praying, etc. Wife cheated on me and left. remarried again a christian in 1988. repeat and rinse. We got divorced in 1993 and I de-converted and shouted at God:"I did what you asked of me and this is how you repay me". I too was "happier and more content" because I followed my own way. Fast forward 24 years in 2015 God started working on me again. Blessing were poured out on me out of nowhere. I finally surrendered to God again. I started studying on my own and grew into a deeper understanding of Sovereignty and Providence. I looked back and repented on my horrible rebellion. Who am I to tell the creator He should treat me a certain way? I deserve hell and I know it. Our relationship is so much sweeter. So much more full of Grace and Liberty. My message is Stop looking for reasons not to believe but for reasons to believe. God justice is NOT our idea of Justice - His ways are not our ways. Maranatha.
edit: one last thing: in the back of my mind, your dad's books always haunted me. I remember reading them as a new christian and a part of me always knew there was no denying God was real. Thank him for me. I actually attended a dinner in Colorado he was speaking at back in the early 80s. No we didn't meet.
Sorry but no-one "de-converts" and then "shouts" at a god they no longer believes exists.
@@downenout8705 It is possible he thought he left the faith but still cried out to God. Have a relationship with the Lord is key and somehow I believe he was hurt but kept his heart open.
@@downenout8705 Thanks Downen Out (good handle by the way). You are definitely the kind of "christian" I never want to be around. You missed the point completely.
@@michaelpalmer3540 I'm an atheist, and I'm simply pointing out the cognitive dissonance that I find so prevalent amongst theists.
@@facedown36 What he described is a typical example of theist cognitive dissonance.
I was heavily involved in a church with a corrupt pastor which tested my faith deeply. Ultimately I love Jesus. Period. Heart got hard for awhile, but never lost faith. Now I’m back fully. My feeling is if someone has truly been born again, nothing can take their faith.
But why do you have faith to begin with. What makes Christianity true? For example, why don't you believe in Zeus, the God of Thunder from ancient Greek religion?
That is so true!!!
@radscorpion8 I challenge you to HONESTLY ask God to show you the Truth. But you won't get anywhere if you have a by attitude.
You should have learned the plain and simple lesson that these pastors make their money off of control and manipulation. Giving authority over your life to anyone is a recipe for bad decision making. Follow your original gut and get out of the cult.
@@radscorpion8Great amount of historycity in the Bible, Tremendous impact of Jesus on our life even in these days, Countless numbers of fulfilled prophecies. Many more besides these, you have phylosophical argument for existence of God, argument from morality, cosmological argument, teleological argument, ontological argument. If you don't like that maybe take a deeper look at our world at quantum level which clearly tells us that determinism is dead and there's something special about our consciousness that collapses the wave function, which greatly shows irreducible nature of our mind and it's origin from something else than physical matter. I hope you'll find the truth, because it makes us free like nothing else in this beautiful world. God bless You
When I left Christianity, it wasn’t emotionally troubling for me. It just didn’t make sense to me anymore. When I came back, it was because it made sense to me again, also with no emotionally compelling experience. The cognitive reasons are all that made a big difference to me, at least that I’m aware of.
That’s amazing you came back. Fascinating!
I doubt it was logic and reason that bought you back.
@@SeanMcDowell you and I evaluate amazing in very different ways. Also, what are you a doctor of?
What caused doubts for you and how did you answer them?
@Andrew Fairborn You wouldn’t know, since I didn’t tell you what my reasons were and how logical I think they are, so your skepticism is unwarranted here.
Here's something I wrote while facing some trying times in my life.
God is Still God
- by Troy Hinkle
God is still God when things don’t go my way
God is still God when the cancer doesn’t go away
God is still God when I don’t understand why
God is still God when all I want to do is cry
God is still God when I don’t know what to do
God is still God and He will help see me through
God is still God when the world is upside down
God is still God when I wear a frown
God is still God and He is not surprised at the things I must face
God is still God and He is full of Grace
God is still God and He loves me still
God is still God and I seek to know His will
God is still God even when I worry
God is still God and He is full of glory
God is still God and He will supply
God is still God and He is enough to get me by
God is still God and He is on my side
God is still God and in Him I must abide
God is still God and He is in control
God is still God and He brings peace to my troubled soul
God is still God and He has an open ear
God is still God and He hears my prayers
God is still God and He understands the desires of my heart
God is still God and He will never depart
God is still God and I must trust and obey
God is still God and He is the Way
God is still God and He gives us His Son
God is still God and Over Sin He has overcome
God is still God during the good and the bad
God is still God He cares when I am sad
God is still God when things are a mess
God is still God and He does like to bless
God is still God and I am glad that I am not
God is still God and I must not be distraught
God is still God and He is teaching me each day
God is still God and He is showing me His way
God is still God and I must not fear
God is still God and He sees every tear
God is still God and I rest in His hand
God is still God and He knows where I will land
God is still God and He molds me each day
God is still God when trials come my way
God is still God and He is ever near
God is still God and I am glad He still Cares
Thank You for sharing this poem, Troy. I agree with it totally. A line of poetry from Don Williams song, “I believe in love” May he always rest with our Lord.
“Well I don’t believe that Heaven waits, for only those who congregate.
I like to think of God as love, He’s down below, He’s up above.
He’s watching people everywhere, He knows who does and doesn’t care.
And I’m an ordinary man, sometimes I wonder who am.
But I believe in love…. Good day to you and yours.
Many many assumptions
Yes , God is still God,
No matter what nonsense you choose still to believe !
Salutations , to delusional beliefs !
@@johnlinden7398 Funny; the believers think the non believers are delusional for unbelief.
Beautiful and encouraging, dear friend in Jesus' family! Thank you so much
Fantastic conversation. This is the kind of content that is very practical and helpful for us as pastors and church leaders. More of this please!
If parents would be tolerant and open to the ideas or questions of their children while at the same time very firm on behaviors, what a difference that would make in the outcome of children's faith.
Allow discussion, questions even doubts by our children. Sean's father modeled this openness very well.
Help our children think through ideas rather than see questions as a threat.
THIS!
(atheist with christian parents here and this is so SO important)
I believe apologetics is way to low on the priority list as far as what you need to be a Christian.
And 100% agtreement
As an atheist I agree. Not being able to question definitely played a part in my deconversion
my mom and agnostic Atheist my Dad methodist they never raised use to believe in anything specific they let us explore what we wanted to believe in what we got older my sister is druid/pagan my and I became Christian when I was 24 years but I didn't affiliate with any donimnation and I am not affiliated with any organization today I just believe in god the father and jesus his only son I feel vary grateful my parents let us research and decide what path was right for us.
It is so refreshing to hear people who are deep in their faith exploring the uncomfortable or messy. Many people ignore the pitfalls, difficult ideas, and questions. Thank you for this discussion!
My oldest son's left our faith because of church abuse by peers, peers' parents, lay leadership and pastors not willing to believe those people were abusive and liars. Nothing was acknowledged. Nothing was done. Church clearly became a very unsafe place for our family. My children's faith was destroyed by physical and emotional abusive church people.
Thank you for this interview! really helpful and gave me a lot to think about
If you believe in truth, you must follow it wherever it takes you, even dark, uncomfortable and scary places…
It has been said that there is no perfect church, cause as soon as you join it, it is no longer “perfect.”
But the pronlem goes umdtayed:
Did God say? Come on, really?
God said He preserved His word. Psalm 12:6-7. Most modern bibles do not.
In other words they are not admitting that God has a standard, His inspired word.
So most of the modern bibles have at least one out and out lie. NKJB lies in Exodus 6:3. Others quote Jesus saying i am not going to the feast. John 7:8. (Is he saying he is going to break the law of Moses?) He waits and then goes. Liar!
And blatantly they mock Jesus and continually and constantly, with each change ask, Did God say?
Did God say Mark 11:26? Absolutely. It is an essential part of our walk with God. Truly a stupid question.
Did God say? Acts 15:34? It shows God's divine providence. Silas was there when Paul needed him for a journey. Another stupid question.
Did God say eleven (11) times in the New Testament the word damnation, eternal burning? Yes. But not in theirs!
Did God give three witnesses to that truth? Mark 9:44, 46, 48. They however only have v48. The other two they ask, Did Gid say? This is important because those who preach Annialism, we cease to exist, are easily proven wrong with these verses.
Jesus is God and Jesus is man. Hebrews supports this with four verses, 3:3, 7:24, 8:3 and 10:12: "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sin for ever, sat down at rhe right hand of God; v10:12. They do not use the clarifying words "this man at all. Again, Did God say?
Every change they make is an insult to God and His word.
God ssid He would curse those who add to or take from His word. Revelation 22:18-19.
In the Old Testament those who honored a false prophet received the reward of that prophet. So the original translators, the bible societies the publishers, the promoters, sellers and those who teach from them (showing those ear tickling bibles are God's word) pr honor them will be held responsible. If done ignorantly, repent.
God will not be mocked.
This happened when the inspired Antioch manuscripts called the Textus Receptus were replaced by the Alexandrian manuscripts called the Codex B or the Vaticanus from the Vatican basement, and the Sianiticus from a monestary. They do not agree with each other and the latter has about 30
changes per page. Obviously inspired by their spiritual father who brings conflict. doubt and despair.
King James Bible online
Helpful tool: Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online
Sources:
Adullum Films Documentary
-Tares Among the Wheat video
Books: The Revision Revised and The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both by William Burgon. Dean Burgon lived during the time of Wescott and Hort.
Book: Look What's Missing by David Daniels Chick.com.
If interested an old video called The Forbidden Book video.
It has some American History also.
Thank you this was very informative and helpful. Keep giving us truth.
I really enjoyed this interview. Thank you!
Discussions of this subject make me really appreciate my own spiritual journey to an ever deeper love and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I went through my crisis of "faith" before I became a real believer. I knew I was an agnostic in the 2nd grade at Catholic elementary school. I knew a Roman Catholic view of the gospel, and I knew about most of the important critiques of spiritual worldviews in general and Christianity in particular. Then on Saturday, December 20, 1980, around 12PM Noon PST, whilst I was looking at a "Wanted" poster for Jesus, it all fell in to place and I knew that He is everything He claimed to be, and He is able to do everything He promises to do. He says He's got the keys of hell and of death, and I believe Him. He says He is the Bread of Life, and I believe Him. He says that if I go to be with Him where He is, I'll get to drink of the Water of Life freely, and not only that, He will grant me the privilege of being set down in His Throne, as He is set down in His Father's Throne, if I overcome, as He has overcome.
The Lord has made it easy for me to believe, though not any easier in terms of living it out in real life in real time. So, I can have compassion for those who struggle in ways that I no longer struggle. I also understand that whilst only those who persevere in the faith to the end will be saved, it is also in my opinion the case that only those who persevere AT the end will be saved. The ups and downs don't matter, it's where you come down in the end that matters, so in spite of my Calvinism I keep hope for anyone who might still be eligible for mercy, who is not so reprobate that I'm forced to treat them as not worthy of any bother. Frankly, I haven't actually met anyone in that category, though some come close I'll admit.
I think I can describe my self as a Neo-Calvinist. I believe that whom God foreknew He did also predestinate, but I also believe that God is not willing that any should perish. It's one of those pesky paradoxes that drive people crazy because they try to resolve it in their flesh, within our 4 human dimensions, and forget about the other spiritual dimensions. I think it's the case that God has predestinated everybody to be saved, but individuals exercise their "free" will to opt out of salvation, as it were, so to speak, so that the lost are lost not because God predestinated them to be lost, but because they chose to be lost in rebellion and disobedience and ingratitude against God.
I’ve had two close friends deconstruct and leave the faith. I attempted to retrain the friendships, both stop communication with me and moved on to their new life. It was hurtful and confusing. They both had such a positive impact in my life, but (here comes the Christian cliche…but it’s true!) God helped me through that difficult time.
Perhaps your attempts to "retrain" them rather than understand them could explain the loss of communication.
@@stiimuli he probably meant "retain" of course, but either way, a friend who can't challenge his friends maybe just shows the sensitivity of this age and that more people take a path of least resistance in their relationships and prop up their own 'authenticity' as their greatest mooring (and then go find reinforcing fair-weather friends).
that is surprising because it usually is the other way, unless the denomination is more radical or bigoted. In which case for their own mental health many of us deconverted need to put up healthy boundaries
@@designbuild7128 it could also be the case that a believer constantly challenging someone's position feels more like a battle every time the friends get together. I can't speak for his two friends but if their friendship was solely based on their shared belief at the time than perhaps the friendship wasn't very substantive.
@@jdjsidjdi That could be. And to the point of this video, professing Christians (or church goers) can get it wrong for sure; but I would contend that traditional Christian doctrine / philosophy is built on the idea that we see every person as transcendently valuable. But this is coupled with the idea that withholding what we believe is truth is not loving or being a true friend either. Some claim the platinum rule, which I would say is the same as the golden rule once qualified. as such, there can be of course ideal ways to 'show truth in love' including giving people space, listening/sympathizing, etc.
But there are many modern philosophies that imho confuse discernment on what makes a substantive friendship, what constitutes healthy boundaries as mentioned in this thread, etc. From a pragmatic standpoint, shared values is one of the greatest temporal ties you can use to define a friend. Outside of God's intrinsic value on people, I am not sure how you can transcend commonality / shared interests to define a friendship. Of course you can say you will befriend someone for the greater human condition and civility, but then they are likely just a means to an end. This is a risk in cultural Christianity as well (but this is seen as a misguided view of God's call to love our neighbor and enemies). But I get the points you and others are making.
This is a very important and helpful program. Thank you both
Great conversation. Very interesting and informative. Thank you for sharing.
I had a really bad church experience. Even though I thought my faith was unshakable, it was shaken to the core. It took me 10 years to come back, and yes, it was a long and painful crawl back. If not for God...so I lean in that direction. It's a complicated thing to consider.
Only one bad church experience.....how is this possible...all you have to do is walk into virtually any church in Australia and you will get a shock....so unloving and unfriendly and if you stay longer you will have to have a God given iron clad faith....I refuse to be the religious hateful churchie type...
Perhaps reliably determining true and false should rest upon the available evidence rather than how a particular social group treats you.
@Christian Aponte Just the general behaviour is so often unloving....many self serving wanting to be leaders and not servants.....chosen for being loud, pushy, bullying, pushing themselves forward, sociable but shallow, often narcissists, many do not believe in the basics or have an even working knowledge of the bible and do not follow what they do know....have you not noticed how they treat many groups, the meek, the lowly etc...
Yes, I think this is where people go, because of such bad experiences either within the church or with another so called believer who hurt them
@@debzest4life37
Many put their faith in church instead of in Christ
Hello. Friendly apostate here. Thankyou for covering this and addressing the issue. I had a fairly smooth transition out of my religion and community. But not everyone does. And even mine was not free of discomfort. And it's really good to see you giving researched reasons for why people apostate and leave their faith in contrast to the straw man critcisms often given by apologists. Also good to see you addressing the bad treatment some have recieved in doing this. Really appreciate your work Shaun.
Thx for sharing. I’m glad your transition was smoother than many.
Also Shaun, in terms of effectiveness in bringing people back into Christianity, which I am making an educated gues that for you it's about trusting in Jesus's death on the cross, for the forgiveness of sin and becoming apart of the kingdom of God.
In my contrasted experience with people who have wanted to debate me (Although many have been gracious listeners not pushing an agenda) what you are doing here is going to be most effective in bringing people back in faith in Jesus. Because you make the person who's left feel heard, cared for and loved. And from a psychological perspective we know someone in that state is more likely to listen and open to receiving different perspectives. Whatever it is you are presenting.
Even if you we solely concerned with the result of conversion and cared nothing for the command to love others this still would be the best chance you would get at making a conversion. Ironic in one sense. But not in another. Keep going Shaun. Cheering you from the ex-Christian sidelines :) As I'd rather see people respecting each other and discussing complex issues in depth than at each other's metaphorical throats
@@RemyRemy987 Thank you for sharing this here. I wish more believers understood this issue And how to handle it.
Did you try to build yout faith on sand? Or by mocking God?
Did God say? Come on, really?
God said He preserved His word. Psalm 12:6-7. Most modern bibles do not.
In other words they are not admitting that God has a standard, His inspired word.
So most of the modern bibles have at least one out and out lie. NKJB lies in Exodus 6:3. Others quote Jesus saying i am not going to the feast. John 7:8. (Is he saying he is going to break the law of Moses?) He waits and then goes. Liar!
And blatantly they mock Jesus and continually and constantly, with each change ask, Did God say?
Did God say Mark 11:26? Absolutely. It is an essential part of our walk with God. Truly a stupid question.
Did God say? Acts 15:34? It shows God's divine providence. Silas was there when Paul needed him for a journey. Another stupid question.
Did God say eleven (11) times in the New Testament the word damnation, eternal burning? Yes. But not in theirs!
Did God give three witnesses to that truth? Mark 9:44, 46, 48. They however only have v48. The other two they ask, Did Gid say? This is important because those who preach Annialism, we cease to exist, are easily proven wrong with these verses.
Jesus is God and Jesus is man. Hebrews supports this with four verses, 3:3, 7:24, 8:3 and 10:12: "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sin for ever, sat down at rhe right hand of God; v10:12. They do not use the clarifying words "this man at all. Again, Did God say?
Every change they make is an insult to God and His word.
God ssid He would curse those who add to or take from His word. Revelation 22:18-19.
In the Old Testament those who honored a false prophet received the reward of that prophet. So the original translators, the bible societies the publishers, the promoters, sellers and those who teach from them (showing those ear tickling bibles are God's word) pr honor them will be held responsible. If done ignorantly, repent.
God will not be mocked.
This happened when the inspired Antioch manuscripts called the Textus Receptus were replaced by the Alexandrian manuscripts called the Codex B or the Vaticanus from the Vatican basement, and the Sianiticus from a monestary. They do not agree with each other and the latter has about 30
changes per page. Obviously inspired by their spiritual father who brings conflict. doubt and despair.
King James Bible online
Helpful tool: Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online
Sources:
Adullum Films Documentary
-Tares Among the Wheat video
Books: The Revision Revised and The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both by William Burgon. Dean Burgon lived during the time of Wescott and Hort.
Book: Look What's Missing by David Daniels Chick.com.
If interested an old video called The Forbidden Book video.
It has some American History also.
@@judyswiderski2682hey Judy. It seems like this reply relates to something that isn't my comment :) I'm guessing it was meant as a reply to the video or another comment. If I'm not wrong about this could be good to move it to the intended place. If it is intended for my comment you could explain as to how if you like🙂
I deconverted but the process was happening for years before and didn't realize it. I was deconverted out of hard core fundamentalism gradually but I was claiming Jesus and my fundamentalist faith until I pivoted in one day I looked in the mirror and told myself I am no longer a Christian. I wanted a Time I actually know that I can look back to where I made the concrete decision to leave the faith. I didn't attend a more "liberal" Christian Church.
Hard core fundamentalism or legalism is what I think people assimilate with Christianity
@@jeffcaminiti162 That is changing and I have watched Chrisitanity for over 45 years and huge changes have been happening within the last 3 years. I find it shocking myself, and that is saying something.
@@jeffcaminiti162 I worked in a mega church and attended a year long class there with some wonderful women. I was surprised by the amount of ex-Catholics that were calling themselves reformed Catholics, jokingly. They shared a common theme to why they left the Catholic Church- it was very legalistic and was not about having a real relationship with Jesus. Being saved by works, not grace.
@@taras4352 No question that a lot of people walk away from legalism. But legalism doesn't represent God. Legalism represents flawed(sinful) human beings misrepresenting the faith. Going the opposite extreme of that isn't the answer.
I have started telling my kids that they WILL have doubts as they go along in their faith and to continue seeking answers. To not be scared by doubts and to be okay with some of the discomfort while they search out their answers. The alternative is that this is all by chance and that is more ludicrous than any doubt I might have.
The best thing you can do as a Christian to respond someone who is deconverting is to be like this:
Love endures with patience and serenity, love is kind and thoughtful, and is not jealous or envious; love does not brag and is not proud or arrogant. 5 It is not rude; it is not self-seeking, it is not provoked [nor overly sensitive and easily angered]; it does not take into account a wrong endured. 6 It does not rejoice at injustice, but rejoices with the truth [when right and truth prevail]. 7 Love bears all things [regardless of what comes], believes all things [looking for the best in each one], hopes all things [remaining steadfast during difficult times], endures all things [without weakening].
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is [perceived] knowledge, it will pass away.
After you say that do I get a cookie? The schick fails if I don't get a cookie!
@@MagnumInnominandum I actually have some cookies right here lol.
@@gfxpimp
Holy rolling will pass away, as well.
Unfotunately, the bible and christians for the last 2000 years have made it undoubtedly clear that there is no hate on the planet like Christian love. So quoting a verse about 'love' from a book full of Orwellian doublespeak and that demands humans have personal relationships with an abuser is a frightening approach towards people who already see the Christian mythology for the horrific moral depravity that it is and atrocities it has wrought on the world.
I agree with him that reading the bible for yourself is the top reason people leave the faith.
Let me add to your statement. Reading the Bible and not understanding it, or studying it, is why a lot of people either leave, or don’t want anything to do with it. IMO
no. it's because of selfishness. it's not hard to defend the bible. the bible is never the problem. we humans love to rebel.
I find the prosses of people adopting/changing world views facinating. The selective pressures on world views are complex, it has a huge emotional impact on the person and people arround them and though the progression of human history will/has had major effects.
Gonna have to get this book.
If anyone knows books about similar topics I'd be big appreciate.
Excellent discussion - thank you!!!
Believing something is not a choice, until you understand this, you will not understand leaving the faith.
I came to a crossroads when I was 24, and I was challenged. The thing is, I didn't take those challenges as a wreck to my faith. Instead, I challenged the challenges and they fell apart. Today, my faith is 100 times stronger, my knowledge and study is also much more sturdy than it was then. All in all, when it comes to the philosophy of God's existence, the answer to that question is a resounding and overwhelming YES! I chose not to fold, and dig in instead. The challenges were very real to me as well. This is when my faith became my own, and not anything I was taught. I have a friend who was raised in the church. He fell at the first challenge to his faith and what he fell to was a little book that was nothing. The book was all completely false and written by what most would consider to be a quack. I challenged him to challenge the book and he said no. He was never of us. Just as the bible says, the wheat and chaff will be separated. Chaff blows away in the wind easily. No strength in his faith at all. I believe he was looking for the first reason to give it up and when that excuse presented itself he did. (hard Christian home) I personally was bombarded with challenges, but they all fell at my scrutiny of them.
@@bairfreedom no
That's an excuse--akin to saying a demon made you do it, the devil made you do it, God/s made you do it etc. Statements like, "the evidence convinced me and left me with no other choice," require elaboration and don't on their own provide any information on what was convincing.
I agree. :) I stopped believing in atheism after reading theistic philosophy and questioning my atheism and following the evidence where it leads.
@@hhstark8663 I have a very hard time seeing how evidence could possibly lead you to any sort of specific theology. Once you consider the idea that all religions are invented by men any other explanation seems very unlikely by comparison.
This is what has my attention more than anything right now in this culture...I feel like I'm the poor man's John Marriott :) as I'm in many conversations/debates and studying of folks deconstructing/deconverting in books and videos. He's 1000% right in that you go through the gammit of empathy, anger, and questioning things yourself--especially when someone genuinely has their updated worldview very well contructed and are no longer in the Faith. While discouraging, it also should not be surprising--not everyone is going to "believe" so at some point in a gracious debate or conversation, there comes a time when you have to be ok that it really is not for everyone. That's the beauty of Christianity...it's not forced...you either love it or you don't. You end up getting what you want in the end. I'm finding it to be mostly strengthening to my own faith and forcing me to learn and understand Scripture even more...that has been super cool. I look forward to reading John's book and even connecting with him on some advice. I'm actually in the middle of the book "Before you Lose your Faith" by Trevon Wax, Rachel Gilson, and others which is really good too.
This is just what I needed.
Awesome
Thanks for making this video Sean, and thank you Dr. Marriott. I am an apostate. But I find this conversation very thought provoking and valuable.
I stopped considering myself a Christian at the age of 18. I grew up in an evangelical environment but I kept my perspective to myself most of the time. Through lengthy introspection, I realized that I was exhausting my interest in rationalizing my way around Christian beliefs and I decided that ‘I don’t know’ was a valid response to many of my questions around religion.
My immediate feeling was relief. I was free to explore religion and philosophy without that inner sense of tension at the idea that I may have to defend my worldview against intellectual attack. I could just study for the joy of learning. This approach has suited me much more and I still consider myself unaffiliated.
Great comment. Many theists view "I don't know" as a weakness. I think it is oftentimes the best answer. If we admit we don't know we can keep searching for an answer. I also agree that being willing to admit I don't know reduces cognitive dissonance and saves a lot of emotional energy.
I glad you realized you didn't Know Jesus. I hope you give up whatever sin you left the church for and truly get saved! Ray Comfort has FREE movies and interviews on UA-cam with the gospel!
Kal, that's a shame. I know, I spent years only to find out Jesus makes everything easier to bear, no one else lead me to this "peace that surpasses all understanding."
YES! I also grew up evangelical. I was in it a little longer, deconstructing March 2022 at the age of 24, and have stepped back into that "I don't know" perspective. Learning without taking a side IS very relieving. Thank you for your comment.
Your comment greatly show strength in humility and honesty. Thank you.
Thanks for your work on this issue! It is definitely a topic of interest.
Thank you for this program. I cried through much of it because I have a sister who has been in the deconversion process for several years, and my heart breaks for her. Bottom line for her is that she just can't accept a God who would send someone to hell. This was mentioned as an example in the interview, and I wish there had been more discussion on how to respond to that. You have given me much to think about and much to pray about.
I’m glad it was helpful
These are the two best answers I have heard about this the issue of hell. I hope they help. :)
1. God does not send humans to hell. Humans *send themselves* to hell, since they do not want to be in presence with God. God *will not force* someone to be in his presence against his/her will. The only loving thing by God is to let them decide for themselves.
2. God will judge *those who have never heard* or *not have enough information* based on the information that they have been given. If their hearts want to be with god, they will get admitted into heaven. (The reason that we are Christians is because *it is true* , which still justifies missionary-activity on this view.)
@@hhstark8663 Thank you for those good points. My sister would probably reply that the idea that someone sends themselves to hell is preposterous--"No one would do that." If something doesn't seem sensible to her personally then she denies that it's true.
@@thingstocomemission9243 This is what I would respond to her: Why would a judge not do that? Can a judge in real life send a criminal to jail for lifetime for committing serious crimes? Yes, they can. Can a criminal be pardoned in the jurisdictional system? Yes, they can. If the criminal refuses the pardon, will the criminal still be sent to jail for lifetime? Yes, they will.
Why is it then injustice for God to act according to the laws that he layed out (the moral laws), while giving us the option to be pardoned? Have you followed the Ten Commandments perfectly? If we do not take the pardon, we are sending ourselves to jail for a lifetime. That is not injustice.
____________________________
Here is another scenario:
*Accusation* : It´s unjust for god to send people to hell because of a geographical accident!
*Answer* : Why is that unjust? A person is not sent to hell for rejecting Jesus, they are sent to hell for breaking the moral laws (Ten Commandments, repeated in the New Testament as well with the exception of one, namely the Sabbath) for over a lifetime. Has that person who has not heard about Jesus broken the moral law? Yes, they have. How would the punishment be unjust, given the person´s guilt? By accepting Jesus, the person would then be pardoned from his guilt. If the person in question would have accepted Jesus, God would have put a Christian in his/her path. And that is not injustice.
I agree with your sister I believe God know our heart and will eventually welcome everyone back, so I have no fear of the physical death, it is God's greatest gift to humans. Yah though I walk thru the valley of shadow of death I shall fear no evil, this is what I believe@@thingstocomemission9243
When I was much younger I left my church because I believed the lie that
Christians didn't care, which wasn't at
all true, but my core beliefs were still
intact, I rededticated fairly soon after.
I had missed the Lord and glad this
Prodigal came back
I just watched and commented on your talk with GM Skeptic. I came here right after. Doubt was my concern. As an old atheist, I am actually worried about where christianity is going, and I don't want it to go wanky or towards evil. However, your openness and honesty only makes me think that christianity, if it wishes to survive, may have to accept a very much reduced status in America based upon Jesus and not on the ideologically religious based politics of fundamentalism, nor upon what is popular. The problem which you face as christians, of course, is accepting that you may have to be a little light under a shroud, and you may have to live your lives in emulation of Jesus.
Another problem I see, Ol Jimmers, is the ignorance of Christians. They refuse to listen to what an argument is against their religion. They believe it, and that settles it. "Don't tell me the truth. I'm happy with what I believe in" is their motto. And yet they will say that theirs is the truth, and nobody else has the truth. It's pretty sad.
The Jesus way is bigger than christianity in my opinion. They were first called Christians in Antioch as a derisive title. It's embarrassing for me to be counted as Christian in America today because of the misrepresentation of the real Christ. The worldwide ecclesia is as vital as ever!
That christians face the problem of actually following and being like Jesus is ironic and sadly true.
My question would have been why doesn't a living, personal, Father God who wills that all should be saved and who is not the author of confusion doesn't interact with His beloved children who are on the verge of losing their faith/trust/belief in His very existence. It's really as simple as that. When I was on my way out, I was all but begging God to not let me slip off into disbelief that was very much happening against my will and the silence from my Father was deafening.
I could listen to this topic for hours
This segment has been very very helpful and enlightening. I'm currently dealing with looking into this myself. I've been in contemplative thought toward attempting to ask a few of my friends the reasons behind their deconstruction deconversion stories.
The friend that I asked already has confirmed this video as legit information because there were a few variants from this video that he has dealt with in his leaving the faith.
Please pray that I decrease in the Lord increases as I speak to him further about his reasonings. That I might know and be led in what to say and what not to say while conversing with him and any of the other people in my life who I speak to on this subject. And pray that they have those instances where they come back to the faith or come to the faith, for the glory of God.
Thank you both again!
This is a chance for you to consider your own beliefs. You prayed that your God gives you the words to say that will "work". If he gives you words and they don't work then your God has been falsified.
@@thetruest7497 I never prayed for the "words that work" which it would seem as though you are equating that phrase to mean "magic words".
I asked for the words to say that will help me to answer his questions to the best of my ability. The words that will allow me to show compassion to his hurt and truth to the lies he has been fed. Whether he accepts them as true or not is on his heart once the seed of Truth has been planted.
Matthew 10:19
I would suggest that you take time to examine scripture because if you think God is a Genie you either have the wrong God or you've been battling against the Prosperity/Name It Claim It gospel...which I am against as well.
@@nikduke23 this whole response is a way to reconcile the fact you know the God you think exists will not do anything with the fact that you don't want to give up belief. It's understandable, but not good for accepting reality. Whether or not you prayed for the words that work or words at all you're still treating it like a genie. I recommend taking a long critical look at what you're doing here.
@@thetruest7497 okay. Thanks for the advice.
Nothing wrong with taking the time to examine your beliefs. I have done that. On many occasions and Jesus is the answer that stands in every test I conduct.
Hopefully, he'll be that for you someday as well.
@@nikduke23 based on your response here I can tell you haven't done that. What you've done is look to reaffirm what you already wanted. This is quite common and quite easily detectable. For example your initial response was an attempt to hide the fact that your God won't do something verifiable. This is a tactic commonly used by people suffering from confirmation bias. You incorrectly thought that if the results of your asking are unverifiable then God cannot be assessed. You didn't realize that you were still treating it like a genie by asking for words at all. Only you would be able to tell whether or not you think you were spoken to (a way of hiding the results of your asking) where if your friend wasn't convinced by your God words (which they wouldn't be because the words provided by your God are always eerily similar to and lack luster as your own words) then that proves your God doesn't know everything ie the words that would convince your friend.
Christian attempts to protect their God from examination like this is telling enough, it exposes that even you don't believe in its power. Furthermore it's unbiblical. Go read 1 Kings 18 where Yahweh lays out scientific tests to verify "real gods" from fake ones (ignoring the fact that Yahweh thinks Baal exists for the moment).
Why do you want to protect your God from the types of verifiable tests he was adamant about in his autobiography, the bible? I know the answer to that, but just want you to consider that for a while.
As an ex-evangelical, I lost my faith over 20 years ago. It was gradual, long process. I still remember my very last prayer, it was something along these lines: "God forgive me, I am no longer sure You exists. Please help me and show me the truth. Until I hear from You directly, I will continue alone." And I still mean it! If God will show me that He is true, I will repend. Until that, there is nothing to repend for. I just live my life the best way I can, as if it was the only one.
Thank you for sharing your story. I can only imagine how tough that would’ve been.
@@SeanMcDowell Tough part was: everything was, what I did not expected, and on top of it, I had to re-define my worldviews, reasons for everything. And to be true, I still keep making corrections. Your topic got my attention - I hoped to recognize the reasons I had when leaving. But no dice ;) And, thanks for being so.. positive! (I really struggled for the last word)
@@veikoplays great insights, there’s a lot of reasons
I have stopped going go church and my faith got stronger.
May I ask, "your faith in what?"
@@christophergibson6694 God silly. The spirit of God is within you. Go within.
@@koakat4340 Just to be clear. The Spirit of God only comes to live in you when you have repented and trusted Jesus alone for your salvation.
@@koakat4340 I did indeed find God within, I never gave up my faith I gave up organized religion and found a heart full of compassion and that gave me peace.
I felt the same. I'd like to go back someday for the fellowship and preaching but most of my growth has been outside the church.
I used to be a super devout Mormon. So so incredibly fundamental. I don’t regret leaving because it was a cult, but all these things you’re saying are so incredibly true of my experience and leaving. It was a super long process that took several years. It was definitely the hypocrisy of the members that planted that first seed of doubt that caused me to really look around and be like you’re not even doing what you’re preaching. Then there were the intellectual issues, their own books having problems, and them being shunned. It scares me knowing that life does have a way of brining up situations that I would’ve never dreamed was possible. I would’ve never guessed that I was going to leave. So now it’s taking me 10 years to find my way back to evangelical faith because I had to take time to heal and live and experience the ways of the world, despite avoiding a ton of pitfalls that people who leave fall into, see them fail me in my life get worse and completely run out of every option that way. I have no clue what the future is gonna have and if it’s going to break me spiritually again and not be able to find my way out of it. All I can do is try to build up my testimony even more and continue to work to make sure I’m surrounded by a positive community to be there to help me out. Fortunately pastors are all formally trained and can help in a way that Mormon bishops can’t but members are taught to expect. Hence they’re bleeding members and they should be! They claim they’re Christian but they really aren’t but we need to be bringing them over to this side and welcoming them into this community after being burned by theirs.
I find it interesting that we are acting as if there is a new classification for what used to be called falling away, forsaking the faith, or backsliding. I actually walked away from my relationship with God very similar to that you have described. I actually told God I didn't leave him but he left me. I use to despise that people would seem to come across my way and they would say the most outlandish things about God. I used to feel compelled to clarify that just because I no longer serve God it does not change HIS character. I eventually came to the end of myself and realized I was miserable without God and I was miserable with God but what else could I do but return to God because He alone has life. Once I repented and returned, God began to heal my heart and hurts from church doctrine and the people in the church. What I came to realize is that the lack of discipleship and my immaturity in the faith led to me falling away. This is literally my greatest push now as a follower of Christ Jesus... we are to make disciples of Christ Jesus not members of the church. Some feel this is just semantics but it definitely is not. I as a human can belong to something without being invested in the cause or purpose. Discipleship creates opportunity for one to invest in each other's maturing in the faith of our Lord and Savior as well as creating a safe place to ask questions and grapple with hard truths.
There's a big difference between believing and not following and the realisation that there is no good reason to believe that any god or gods are real and so not believing and not following.
LOL! What you stated is the exact reason I could never stop being a Christian. Life is so much fuller and meaningful with God than it is without Him. It's why I often think and find that so many of the stories of these deconverted Christians are people who were never Christians to begin with. They either come from some legalistic fundamentalist background or their Christianity was based on just some feel good feeling, or they became a Christian for social reasons ie. career/marriage. But they never gave their mind or heart to God.
Really good point. I will remember that. Church members vs. disciples.
I left Christianity during a time when I was trying to be a better Christian. After a friend started getting involved with a particular church that made claims that weren't Biblical, I tried talking to him, and realized my ability to recall a relevant verse was lacking. From there I decided to not just read but thoroughly study the Bible to not just understand what's being said, but why. As I delved deeper into the Bible, I realized there was a lot that just simply wasn't true, acts of a god that are cruel, despicable, and immoral...none of it made sense anymore. I went searching for answers, trying to make sense of it all and happened to come across debates between apologists and atheists, and every single time - the atheist made more sense.
Turns out the best Christian I could be was an atheist.
That said, no bad experience led me away. I was (and am still) happily married with a family and great friends. Leaving my faith was more difficult because I lost some of those connections I had with others.
@Sarah Hodgins You've got to be kidding. First, American churches don't teach these things; they just ignore it's there. The old testament is littered with times where god commands the death of many people, including the firstborns of Egypt.
Leviticus 25:44 - “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."
Leviticus 25:46 - "You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
This isn't pro-slavery? Really? The only reason people feel the need to interpret verses like this is because of the uncomfortable truth about what it blatantly says.
Ive deconstructed my faith and I’m still an evangelical. My views on some secondary issues have changed, but I hold on to the essentials even stronger.
Sounds good to me!
@Sarah Hodgins For me, anyone who affirms the tenets of the Nicene Creed is a Christian. An Evangelical however is someone who also 1) empathises the necessity of being ‘born again’ 2) Places a focus on evangelism and spreading the Gospel and 3) sees the Bible as the trustworthy Word of God.
So insightful
I find it very natural and even logical to believe in a Higher Power / Creator, and even confess christian faith, but I still struggle with lots of theology.
That’s understandable!
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
Hebrews 11:6
Sometimes things are counterintuitive
@@SeanMcDowell it's understandable, but also unbearable. Truth about "God and everything" is really something I want to find, not only vague belief in something higher.
You are to be taugt by the Spirit of truth, after you atre born again by the power of the Holy Spirit of God.
The first part, the Spirit of truth does not use lying, God mocking bibles.
Did God say? Come on, really?
God said He preserved His word. Psalm 12:6-7. Most modern bibles do not.
In other words they are not admitting that God has a standard, His inspired word.
So most of the modern bibles have at least one out and out lie. NKJB lies in Exodus 6:3. Others quote Jesus saying i am not going to the feast. John 7:8. (Is he saying he is going to break the law of Moses?) He waits and then goes. Liar!
And blatantly they mock Jesus and continually and constantly, with each change ask, Did God say?
Did God say Mark 11:26? Absolutely. It is an essential part of our walk with God. Truly a stupid question.
Did God say? Acts 15:34? It shows God's divine providence. Silas was there when Paul needed him for a journey. Another stupid question.
Did God say eleven (11) times in the New Testament the word damnation, eternal burning? Yes. But not in theirs!
Did God give three witnesses to that truth? Mark 9:44, 46, 48. They however only have v48. The other two they ask, Did Gid say? This is important because those who preach Annialism, we cease to exist, are easily proven wrong with these verses.
Jesus is God and Jesus is man. Hebrews supports this with four verses, 3:3, 7:24, 8:3 and 10:12: "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sin for ever, sat down at rhe right hand of God; v10:12. They do not use the clarifying words "this man at all. Again, Did God say?
Every change they make is an insult to God and His word.
God ssid He would curse those who add to or take from His word. Revelation 22:18-19.
In the Old Testament those who honored a false prophet received the reward of that prophet. So the original translators, the bible societies the publishers, the promoters, sellers and those who teach from them (showing those ear tickling bibles are God's word) pr honor them will be held responsible. If done ignorantly, repent.
God will not be mocked.
This happened when the inspired Antioch manuscripts called the Textus Receptus were replaced by the Alexandrian manuscripts called the Codex B or the Vaticanus from the Vatican basement, and the Sianiticus from a monestary. They do not agree with each other and the latter has about 30
changes per page. Obviously inspired by their spiritual father who brings conflict. doubt and despair.
King James Bible online
Helpful tool: Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online
Sources:
Adullum Films Documentary
-Tares Among the Wheat video
Books: The Revision Revised and The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both by William Burgon. Dean Burgon lived during the time of Wescott and Hort.
Book: Look What's Missing by David Daniels Chick.com.
If interested an old video called The Forbidden Book video.
It has some American History also.
Sean is my favorite apologist. He seems like such a genuine guy. If I ever found myself starting to believe in the Christian god, he'd be my first source for apologetics.
Praying for you man
Agreed. Just curious, you don’t have to answer, what do you think is preventing you from believing in the Christian God?
@@connormorris5189 I know you aren't asking me, but if you are just interested in the psychological aspect, I can answer
When I read the bible (specifically the old testament) it seems much more like a product of humans than that of a loving god. I can't figure out why god would repeatedly demand sacrifice in the old testament, but I know that gods from plenty ancient man-made religions are the same way - so it is possible that god is depicted in this way because that is how humans viewed gods back then. Phrased in a different way, it is possible that god is made in the image of humans and not the other way around.
Furthermore, this would explain so many things about the old testament. Why does god repeatedly kill people for trivial reasons including kids? Can't say for certain, but gods of other religions do the same thing. Why does god have a desire to be worshipped and feared? Why does god who loves everyone have a select group of people that he helps in war like in other religions? Why are the laws in deutoronomy from a modern perspective so horrifying? chapter 13 specifically demands that you stone family members to death if they start worshipping different gods and the same chapter demands that we slaughter entire cities if they have different gods. Shouldn't we convert them to christianity?
Same thing with hell. I can't rationally justify it, but I know that other religions have a hell too - isn't it weird that humans independantly of god figured out the perfect and most morally just punishment/reward system for the afterlife? I personally think hell is a thing because the bible is made by humans and I know that the humans responsible for other ancient religions are big fans of hell.
Finally, I don't just don't find the evidence compelling. The evidence consists of ancient people claiming that jesus rose from the dead. But religions don't generally spread by themselves. They always arise and spread because someone starts claiming something that isn't true, so I don't know how anyone can differentiate between a religion spreading because it's true from a religion that is based on a lie.
I am fine with people using jesus as a role model, though. I think he represents good values and I think the world would be a better place if more people listened to his teachings.
But if we are purely looking at this from a perspective that I consider rational, I can't say that I think any of these things actually happened
@@connormorris5189 I would say it's the lack of good evidence. I don't know what it would take to convince me otherwise....but if God does exist, he would know exactly what it would be.
Definitely relate to that. Of the apologists and preachers I listened to when I was a Christian and while I was a deconverting, Sean was definitely my favorite. While atheists have plenty of great spokespersons, few are as genuinely caring and loving as Sean. While I don’t wish the real struggle and heartbreak that happens when you lose your faith for the first time on anyone, Sean would be the best person to coherently and lovingly represent exchristians if he ever were to deconvert.
I refound him as I was following Josh Steingard (think thats the spelling) through his doconversion (as we definitely went through the same things). Sean’s approach and conversation with him was a very beautiful moment. Kinda shocked me to hear what others like Alisa Childers and the lead singer of Skillet had to say, both of whom I had admired. That being said I still appreciate their perspectives and Monster is a great song
Mothers often sacrifice an awful lot for the sake of their children, especially those moms who invest a lot in their kids. They sacrifice their bodies, their health, so much of their time, their careers, their time with friends, their sense of individuality. I think in a lot of ways, motherhood changes a woman’s self-concept more than fatherhood does a man’s. I could be wrong, since I’ve never been a father. But I’ve worked with mothers for a long time. When you have invested so much of your life - not just your time, your whole life - into someone, to watch them fall away from what matters most in life is not just heart-wrenching; it also feels like all that sacrifice you made was in vain. For better or worse, we mamas feel like a lot is riding on how our children turn out.
You make a lot of good points about motherhood but not sure how that relates at all to the above video O_o
Believe it or not, you are describing codependence not motherhood. If you did your best, you have nothing to worry about. The child will have to learn the hard way at times. If they reach a snare in life, they will fall back on all that made you stable. Then they will be able to put their life in order. It might take a 12 step program and a therapist. That is the journey of them and God's plan for their life and maybe plan b and c. Your kids are loaned to you. They really belong to God and themselves. You need to read a book on codependency. You cannot control your kids or your lives. Focus on your life and become excited about your life and that will attract your children to you in relationship. Show how happy following God makes you. God bless you.
As a former Christian, I can remember feeling this burden, that my children's salvation was riding on my ability to "train up a child in the way he should go...". Indoctrination is the inevitable, natural consequence; rest assured, children that walk away from the faith will resent this. Neither your nor your child's self-worth should hinge on a Christian identity. If you've raised a loving, empathetic, and productive member of society, well done. Consider (or perhaps reconsider) a god that would cast that person into hell for eternal torment for a lack of belief.
Sacrifice is different from vicarious living.
A sacrifice is vicarious, but...
a sacrifice requires a death,
and a sacrifice therefore seems to be
something made "in vain."
That is the meaning of sacrifice.
Something to think on, sisters.
I understsnd your hesrt! We so dedire to see the best for our children especially their eternity.
But there is a deceptive veke we were not aware of. We thouhht that God made all bibles equal.
Did God say? Come on, really?
God said He preserved His word. Psalm 12:6-7. Most modern bibles do not.
In other words they are not admitting that God has a standard, His inspired word.
So most of the modern bibles have at least one out and out lie. NKJB lies in Exodus 6:3. Others quote Jesus saying i am not going to the feast. John 7:8. (Is he saying he is going to break the law of Moses?) He waits and then goes. Liar!
And blatantly they mock Jesus and continually and constantly, with each change ask, Did God say?
Did God say Mark 11:26? Absolutely. It is an essential part of our walk with God. Truly a stupid question.
Did God say? Acts 15:34? It shows God's divine providence. Silas was there when Paul needed him for a journey. Another stupid question.
Did God say eleven (11) times in the New Testament the word damnation, eternal burning? Yes. But not in theirs!
Did God give three witnesses to that truth? Mark 9:44, 46, 48. They however only have v48. The other two they ask, Did Gid say? This is important because those who preach Annialism, we cease to exist, are easily proven wrong with these verses.
Jesus is God and Jesus is man. Hebrews supports this with four verses, 3:3, 7:24, 8:3 and 10:12: "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sin for ever, sat down at rhe right hand of God; v10:12. They do not use the clarifying words "this man at all. Again, Did God say?
Every change they make is an insult to God and His word.
God ssid He would curse those who add to or take from His word. Revelation 22:18-19.
In the Old Testament those who honored a false prophet received the reward of that prophet. So the original translators, the bible societies the publishers, the promoters, sellers and those who teach from them (showing those ear tickling bibles are God's word) pr honor them will be held responsible. If done ignorantly, repent.
God will not be mocked.
This happened when the inspired Antioch manuscripts called the Textus Receptus were replaced by the Alexandrian manuscripts called the Codex B or the Vaticanus from the Vatican basement, and the Sianiticus from a monestary. They do not agree with each other and the latter has about 30
changes per page. Obviously inspired by their spiritual father who brings conflict. doubt and despair.
King James Bible online
Helpful tool: Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online
Sources:
Adullum Films Documentary
-Tares Among the Wheat video
Books: The Revision Revised and The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both by William Burgon. Dean Burgon lived during the time of Wescott and Hort.
Book: Look What's Missing by David Daniels Chick.com.
If interested an old video called The Forbidden Book video.
It has some American History also.
I have some friends, some old and some new, who have left the faith. I've had the same thoughts and questions that are being asked here.
Friendly atheist here! :) It is a straw man that people are leaving the faith due to bad things happening to them... stop wasting time on this, we all agree that good or bad things happening to people are not a good reason to believe or not believe in themselves.
It depends. For some people it is intellectual, for other people it is emotional (like in "Jim Yost" and "Sarah´s song"´s cases in the comments below).
I conqur that emotional reasons *should* not cause a change in position, but it does unfortunately (not all human beings obviously, but still occurs). Human beings are unfortunately not entirely rational.
Reasons don't have to "be good" (whatever that means) to believe something though, so it's important to address regardless of your personal opinion of the reasons.
You sound like you understand that Jesus said no one that the Father gives Him will be lost and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. John 6:39
Hi, Friendly Atheist! I agree that the fact that bad things happen to good people is not a very good excuse to dis-believe in a loving, all-powerful God. The Bible explains that bad things are the consequences of sin being unleashed upon the world, which happened at man's initiative, in spite of a clear warning from God, Who, in His mercy, took the eternal consequences upon Himself through His Son, providing an escape route for mankind--should they choose to take it. I think of original sin as being like radiation from the sun. I was born into a world with radiation. I did not ask for it, but it will eventually kill me. Whether or not I believe in radiation or not does not change the consequences for me, although if I choose to lie around in tanning beds, I could hasten the process. In order for me to live forever, someone would need to save me from the consequences of radiation.
Maybe it's not the majority, but I believe him when he says he came across people who gave that as a reason. Maybe it serves as a catalyst. From utter disappointment to asking yourself whether or not your religion is true. And it also depends on what you believed in the first place. I imagine someone following the prosperity gospel will deconvert faster because of bad things happening to them than another denomination.
I left the Christian tradition after 20+ years of beautiful, weekly practice and faith when I realized Christian Exceptionalism (Christians go to heaven, *everyone else* goes to hell) would never, ever achieve a peaceful world... quite the opposite... would ensure a world that was forever violently divided. And so it is.
And I left the Christian tradition wholesale within a year.
That's a tough one. I considered leaving Christianity because I didn't like the idea of my way being the right or the only way. And then, when I thought of becoming something else - non-religious, other religion - I hit a conundrum. I realized, no matter what I believed, I would believe that THAT way (whatever it was) was the right way. Even if I believed all religions were right, I would be forced to believe that Christian exceptionalists were wrong. I figure we're all stuck with a kind of exceptionalism. Painfully, I think it's unavoidable.
@@yaminatoday1151 We are not stuck with exceptionalism if we are in a consistent growth process that includes - and yet transcends the best truths as we find them, and jettisons the rest. I jettisoned Christian dogma that was clearly deficient or pathological, and moved forward
@@MamaKatrinaRain Not sure what you mean by "transcends the best truths?" Truth is truth, isn't it? Also, it seems to me that Christians can also be in a consistent growth process, believing what they believe. They don't have to disavow Christ to be in a consistent growth process. So I honestly don't understand what you are saying. Can you clarify?
Is it possible that our finite minds can’t fathom every way that God thinks? Consider what God says to Job and his philosophical friends when they are going back and forth in their discussion
If Christianity is true, islam is false and vice versa.
They can NOT both be true at the same time.
Christianity says that Jesus died on the cross. Islam says that Jesus did NOT die on the cross.
See "cira international" or "pfanderfilms" for more information.
You can't force yourself to believe stuff you no longer believe.
I agree. :) I stopped believing in atheism after reading theistic philosophy and after questioning my atheism.
@@hhstark8663 " I stopped believing in atheism" You stopped believing in something you didn't believe? That's a double negative. Being an atheist simply means you don't accept a god claim. You don't stop believing in atheism, you begin believing in theism. Believing something is an action. You cannot to begin to stop believing.
@@mrscience1409 You are technically correct, in the same way that being a Bolshevik is technically not genocidal, but is by the common understanding of genocidal - desiring to kill entire groups of people who you don't like (just killing kulaks for the sake of the state, you know...). Agnosticism, as understood by most people, is having the humility to not believe any particular religious claim, in the lack of any perceived good evidence for any such claims. Generally it is a transition point for people between one belief system (no matter how ill formed) and another, although people can be in such a situation for decades. Atheism, as understood by most people on the other hand, is the belief that all such religious claims about gods or divinities are bunk, and that our world is not fundamentally subordinate to some divine personality or personalities. It is not, and has not been understood to mean for a long time, as a designation related to a specific god/deity. It describes a big-tent set of beliefs which reject a divine framework as the underpinning of the world. Tend to be materialistic, but atheist idealists are a respectable category that exists.
Tl;DR Many atheists try to write themselves into victory by default by making Atheism the default belief of humans linguistically. Therefore this shifts the burden of proof in their favour, such that if they really desire, any evidence cannot shift the scales. You can do that if you want, I certainly used to. But you are only making it more confusing for everybody.
This is mostly true, but not in the way that tends to matter. I can't force myself to deny the obvious. Incidentally, this is the reason why many theists discuss the concept of 'divine hiddenness', with one solution being that it would not leave humans with a real choice to be undeniably present everywhere... that would be like sorting Stockholm syndrome sheep from those who want to escape, no matter how benevolent the deity.
However, what I can do, and what many (not suggesting you - this is more true of me imho) people actually do, is commit what lawyers and psychologists term wilful blindness. So often, when there are truths we fear, despise, or are disinterested in, we know where to find them - we just would rather not look. When I became an atheist, I claimed that the scriptures are full of contradictions! I had heard it somewhere on UA-cam, and by super cursorily looking over my bible (if that), I could confirm that those passages were indeed in the places the youtuber claimed.
So in short, you are for the most part correct! You can't force belief, it happens organically! But you can *stifle* it. You can throw away the seed before it germinates. You can avoid asking your child why they are acting uncharacteristically despondent, and cultivate an atmosphere where they will never dare talk about their issues, and claim you never knew they were having difficulty, and not even deliberately, just because you prefer the comfort of a quiet house after your 10 hour shift. You can neglect to ask your son how much debt they are in before co-signing the loan, because you ardently believe your son a responsible man, and how could you be wrong about THAT! And given how painful contemplating the idea of a god, and this god's place in your life, the one where bad things have happened to you and to humanity - well, that is ample reason to avoid serious entertaining of the idea of a deity altogether.
How much moral culpability you may have for wilful blindness is up to you to decide. You may even assume the unevidenced, yet not entirely unreasonable assumption that free will does not exist, and therefore the idea of moral culpability is bunk. But what is not up to debate is that it exists, and therefore in some sense our actions (i.e. pseudo choice for stalwart determinists) can determine our beliefs.
Bit of a ramble, but if nothing else it helped me clarify my thoughts. Hope you have a good day!
Your faith should not be grounded on headline motto. Unfortunately, this is as deep as it goes for most Christians
Good interview
The hardest part of separating myself from the Church was not abandoning God in the process.
So many have been indoctrinated to believe that isn't possible. At best a delusion but basically any move away from the Church is warned as a move into the lap of Satan.
How many have been turned away from the divine idea of God because of horrible experiences in the church of Christian religion
I just left Christianity a couple weeks ago. I was having doubts for a couple months and I eventually stopped fighting them.
Thank you for sharing. That must have been hard.
Congratulations, friend. Your newfound enlightenment can be quite intoxicating, but I would suggest resisting the temptation to share your good news too broadly until you have matured a bit in your freedom from religion. Many will be easily offended, and feel judged by you even though you say little. Be kind to those who are religious - they find much comfort in it. Peace, and enjoy the journey.
@@randomentity6553very insightful. I want to second this.
I left the church at the peak of my love for it. It broke my heart that I couldn't affirm the dogma in good faith.
Nearly 15 years later, it takes everything in me not to be contemptuous of what the church has become; particularly American evangelicalism. It certainly bears little to no resemblance to the vision of Jesus I once followed. I grieved the loss at the time, but I regret nothing about parting ways.
Jordan, seriously why do you try to follow a church? The real deal is to follow Jesus. No human organization gets it right.
@@glennsimonsen8421 bwahahaha. Your Jesus is a human construct, same as the human organizations.
There with ya
Yes, need more studies done.
One of my friends from youth group left faith although wouldn’t admit it. I totally get the sense of betrayal.
How is faith good?
Truth wins through but only if you let it.
Faithful Muslims will never change their beliefs. It is faith that keeps them wrong.
That is all faith can do.
It has no correction method and can only keep people wrong.
There is always going to be a struggle for some people when they face challenges in life, they blame God, pray to Him, and don't feel their prayers have been answered. I feel that God always listens to our prayers, but people don't always realise that He works in mysterious ways, not always the way we think, or not always straight away, and we may not always notice the ways in which He has worked or is working for us.
Some walk away from faith because of this, which is so sad, but I know that God listens, cares and loves us unconditionally, and will always be there. Faith is a beautiful thing to let go of, and I feel heartfelt sympathy for those who have lost this most precious of things, what now for them? I pray that they will find their way home, back to Him who created us and loves us, and who wants us home when we leave our earthly life.❤️🙏❤️
Do you realize the description you laid out in your first paragraph paints a situation that is entirely indistinguishable from that god not existing at all? You've constructed a completely unfalsifiable concept. So how do we reliably check to see if this god you're referring to really does hear our prayers and does mysterious things we can't see....or simply isn't there except in the minds of those who want to believe?
Similarly, how exactly do you "know that God listens, cares and loves us unconditionally, and will always be there"? How have you determined this to be true? Because the bible says so? Because you wish this to be true? I am sincerely asking. If this god can reliably and definitively be demonstrated to actually exist outside imagination then many many more people would believe......and surely this god knows this, right?
@@stiimuli I have had a personal experience after the tragic death of a loved one, I can honestly and truly , hand on heart vouch for this experience at the worst time in my life. It was a supernatural experience with no other explanation as I cried out in total despair to my Lord and Saviour. So I speak through personal experience as well as Christianity making complete sense to me. Nothing else does! 🙏
@@beemer2869 Surely you're aware that "I had an experience" is commonly espoused across all religions and all manner of claims. Does it mean they all are true or what that person thinks they were?
Also, you didn't actually answer my questions. What can we do to test your claims about this god to reliably verify if they are accurate? Please offer something better than "I had an experience" or "have faith".
To be fair, I knew you wouldn't understand because my experience was personal and unique to me, I believe it 100 percent, and what you believe is irrelevant.
On my faith, I believe the evidence of the Holy Bible and all the extremely clever men and women through the centuries to the present day who have studied it and analysed it intelligently from cover to cover. My faith is not blind, it is very strong for many many reasons.
You are free to not believe, just as I am to believe, but I tell you one thing, I would rather be in my position than that of a non believer, you have so much more to lose in the end
Nothing will convert me from Christianity.
For more educated answers, if you were interested, I suggest you do some research on UA-cam.
C S Lewis doodles are a good place to start.
I wish you well my friend, God bless.
@@beemer2869 1) I don't doubt you had an experience or what you believe about it. I doubt that your assessment of its cause and meaning are accurate. Just like if someone told you they had an experience with aliens. With only the claim to go on would you just accept actual aliens? I don't mean that as any kind of insult. I'm simply trying to remain objective and intellectually honest.
2) "I believe the evidence of the Holy Bible and all the extremely clever men and women..." But only the clever men and women who believe the bible is true like you do? What about the many, many clever men and women who have studied the bible and believe differently (or don't believe its true)? Do you consider them as well?
3) "you have so much more to lose in the end" No more than you have to lose if Islam is correct. Actually you have more to lose there because Islam's description of hell is far more horrifying than Christianity's. By your own logic you should now convert to Islam because you have more to lose in the end. Or could it be that hypothetical risk is not how we reliably assess what is true and what is not?
4) "Nothing will convert me from Christianity" and that right there is a literal example of being closed minded. Being unwilling to even consider ever changing your mind if new evidence or ideas warrant it. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I'm a bit shocked you said that flat out.
5) "I suggest you do some research on UA-cam" I've spent more than a decade on UA-cam and other forums examining and discussing these subjects. I'm familiar with Lewis and many other apologists. If you find a certain argument of his particularly compelling I'm happy to discuss it here with you.
22:03 EXACTLY, that was true for me.
36:14 Yes, we have to reevaluate each one of our beliefs and create a new moral framework.
@@FierBarca1899 ????
I know some who walked away from their faith. We at one point or another will be presented with an opportunity or pass on it. I almost did this about a year ago. Its a series of events. Not a bad church deal. Talked to friends. Better. Stronger.
The author is making some legitimate points and I wish that Sean explored more elements of those warped theological and Biblical issues and presuppositions that also contributed. It seems like the blame is fundamentally the Church. That may not be the intentional vibe but it may come across as that.
What makes you think responsibility rests with someone other than the individual who capitulates? What about the failure of the individual to assess his own level of sincerity? Rather than blame a monolithic institution, consider an adult approach to the psychology of failure and its spiritual consequences.
This is the kind of response that helps one to make a decisions j to leave the church. The church is supposed to be representative Gods love in earth. You can have great knowledge and theology but if you lack like ve and compassion you are nothing. I'm 61 and I've deconveryed because I don't see the church really living up and teaching the message of Jesus in the gospels. Evangelicals as a blocked seem more concerned about political power and patriotism than loving their neighbor and God. They not power that changes hearts is love, not political power or money. Yhe church is the one that shouldvpook at yhemseoces and see the huge damage theybhave don't be to America Christianity by their support if corrupt political officials for the sake if power. It might be a good idea from the evangelical church to look at the log in their own eye instead and of the splinter in someone else's eye.
Consider the consequenves of building your faith on quick sand
Did God say? Come on, really?
God said He preserved His word. Psalm 12:6-7. Most modern bibles do not.
In other words they are not admitting that God has a standard, His inspired word.
So most of the modern bibles have at least one out and out lie. NKJB lies in Exodus 6:3. Others quote Jesus saying i am not going to the feast. John 7:8. (Is he saying he is going to break the law of Moses?) He waits and then goes. Liar!
And blatantly they mock Jesus and continually and constantly, with each change ask, Did God say?
Did God say Mark 11:26? Absolutely. It is an essential part of our walk with God. Truly a stupid question.
Did God say? Acts 15:34? It shows God's divine providence. Silas was there when Paul needed him for a journey. Another stupid question.
Did God say eleven (11) times in the New Testament the word damnation, eternal burning? Yes. But not in theirs!
Did God give three witnesses to that truth? Mark 9:44, 46, 48. They however only have v48. The other two they ask, Did Gid say? This is important because those who preach Annialism, we cease to exist, are easily proven wrong with these verses.
Jesus is God and Jesus is man. Hebrews supports this with four verses, 3:3, 7:24, 8:3 and 10:12: "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sin for ever, sat down at rhe right hand of God; v10:12. They do not use the clarifying words "this man at all. Again, Did God say?
Every change they make is an insult to God and His word.
God ssid He would curse those who add to or take from His word. Revelation 22:18-19.
In the Old Testament those who honored a false prophet received the reward of that prophet. So the original translators, the bible societies the publishers, the promoters, sellers and those who teach from them (showing those ear tickling bibles are God's word) pr honor them will be held responsible. If done ignorantly, repent.
God will not be mocked.
This happened when the inspired Antioch manuscripts called the Textus Receptus were replaced by the Alexandrian manuscripts called the Codex B or the Vaticanus from the Vatican basement, and the Sianiticus from a monestary. They do not agree with each other and the latter has about 30
changes per page. Obviously inspired by their spiritual father who brings conflict. doubt and despair.
King James Bible online
Helpful tool: Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online
Sources:
Adullum Films Documentary
-Tares Among the Wheat video
Books: The Revision Revised and The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both by William Burgon. Dean Burgon lived during the time of Wescott and Hort.
Book: Look What's Missing by David Daniels Chick.com.
If interested an old video called The Forbidden Book video.
It has some American History also.
I am convinced that 200 years ago there were also tons of people leaving Christianity or their Christian upbringing. Big difference was that they kept it very private.
And another difference is we have digital publishing and social media where (more) deconversion stories can be shared publicly instantly and globally, so we see & hear more of them
This is a very good point. There was no viable alternative culturally and in parts of the US there still isn't. Pretty easy to keep your mouth shut when you have a lot to lose socially by speaking out.
@@danhoff4401 Yes, and the same thing is happening in Islamic societies. Literally millions have left Islam but only very few are known for it. And Pew Research will not find out about most of them, and Statistics will continue to report strong growth of Islam. But the reality on the ground will look quite differently. The giant will stand on feet of clay.
Jesus is the good shepherd. He goes after the one sheep of 99 that has strayed and brings it back. I certainly experienced this in more than one occasion in my spiritual walk. He brought me back every time.
Early in the video, the topic of once-saved-always-saved came up. As a strong believer in salvation through Jesus, I have spent some time considering this also. There are two types of verses that have fed into the question. One type are the "no one shall take us out of His hand" verses, and the other type are the "endure to the end" and "I never knew you" verses. My conclusion in the study is: only God knows for sure but I had best be dedicated to Jesus in all aspects of my life (no hypocrisy). Another comment, if I may: Later in the video, observations were made to the rejection of de-converts by Christians. Love seems to be the ultimate connection to both God and de-converts. If a "Christian" can't continue to love a de-convert, then I doubt they loved pre-converts (to whom we are command to reach out). To love God means to love Jesus and he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Therefore, if we abandon de-converts, we are not obeying the basis command to love one another ("love your neighbor as yourself"). I pray these insights are helpful in some way.
Somehow they miss the unconditional love of God. Anytime we feel we have to earn our salvation, (instead of fully accepting Jesus paid it all,) we will burn out and treat others without compassion.. But the fact that up to 40% of church leaders are Narcissists, who control, by the law, their parishioners, we also have a viable reason why people leave the church, feeling it is not worth the pain.
Unconditional? How exactly is "worship me or be punished for eternity" unconditional?
There's a reason the only unforgivable sin in the bible is disbelief.
I didn't but first I would need evidence that a god exists and then proof that this god loves me. saying it is not enough, and sorry but I can't just flip a switch and say okay I will believe again, because I need a good reason to believe and there isn't one after searching for over 15 years. and then furthermore if it take longer than 2 years what kind of god would allow people truthfully and genuinely searching for a relationship with Jesus????
@@stiimuli You missed it. You try to sum it up in what you think is happening, but that is not what is happening in this story. The story is, Humans decided not to love God. God, in his way to seek REAL believers and beings to share in his creation lovingly gave that choice. So when you choose to not be with God, God allows you to do that. The ultimate end is complete existence with everything godless. When you realize what that is exactly, there is no one who would want that. Existence without any pleasure or goodness whatsoever. Just sorrow, disgrace, regret, and torment for eternity. Why? Because you chose to not be with God. Super simple. Just being without who God is and what he is is what makes life Hell. He is not actively torturing you, he turns his back on you and the result is, you get to enjoy none of his attributes. Which is everything that you think is good in life period.
@@Epsylon21 There is evidence that God exists everywhere you look, however, you deny it and attribute it to the musings of man and his ideas. Math, logic are 2 very big things that point to God. Its not hard, but when you don't want it to be true, it is even harder.
But that's the thing a lot of people who deconvert WANT it to be true. The bias is in the opposite direction. But I do understand where your perspective comes from and I know you're well intended, but for many it's not "not choosing God's love" it's "choosing reality over a pre conceived reality"
Anyway have a good day, I'm not intending to insult or "deconvert" you
Atheism’s favorite apologist
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I am going through a crisis of faith. I realize that even if I “abandoned” the religious things of Christianity I could never not believe in Jesus. No matter what I think that never fades. Despite that I’m still confused on many things and how that confusion has any bearing on my salvation.
I'm kinda feeling that way about my Catholic faith. I believe in Jesus and God and am so incredibly confident in the Bible... But I have zero respect for the Catholic Church. The pope is a joke and the evils of Rome cannot be ignored. I feel kinda homeless right now...
Former Christian here, now a strong agnostic, but I love Dr. McDowell’s discussions on here. Thanks for the great discussions.
So are you afraid of the atheist label? If you lack a belief in a supernatural entity then by definition you are an atheist.
I am an agnostic atheist, in that I don't know that no gods exist but I do know that no theist has ever provided anything close to sufficient evidence to demonstrate that their god claims are true.
@@downenout8705 Anthony Flew certainly refuted your claims.
@@glennsimonsen8421 For goodness sake, he provided philosophical arguments, not evidence.
I see that you are a Christian, so read 1 Corinthians 15: 14 and I say to you with the same degree of confidence that the sun will rise tomorrow that if you reply to this post, not a single sentence will contain even a mustard seed's worth of empirical evidence to support the biblical claim that a dead multicellular eucaryote magically came back to life after rotting in the heat of the Levant for a couple of days some two thousand years ago.
Belief without sufficient evidence is indistinguishable from gullibility and I have no wish to be gullible.
@@glennsimonsen8421 Hi count the number of posts and you will see that one is missing. That's Dowen Out's reply to you.
" For goodness sake, he provided philosophical arguments, not evidence.
I see that you are a Christian, so read 1 Corinthians 15: 14 and I say to you with the same degree of confidence that the sun will rise tomorrow that if you reply to this post, not a single sentence will contain even a mustard seed's worth of empirical evidence to support the biblical claim that a dead multicellular eucaryote magically came back to life after rotting in the heat of the Levant for a couple of days some two thousand years ago.
Belief without sufficient evidence is indistinguishable from gullibility and I have no wish to be gullible".
I see no good reason to block that reply do you?
I say someone is very scared of the true reason many are leaving Christianity.
@@glennsimonsen8421 Count the replies. The two that are missing are from Dowen Out.
Hopefully this highly edited version of Dowen Out's reply won't be deleted.
"For goodness sake, he provided philosophical arguments, not evidence.
I see that you are a Christian, so read 1 Corinthians 15: 14 and I say to you with the same degree of confidence that the sun will rise tomorrow that if you reply to this post, not a single sentence will contain even a mustard seed's worth of empirical evidence to support th* (that) biblical claim *******".
Belief without sufficient evidence is indistinguishable from gullibility and I have no wish to be gullible".
Great discussion here. I was myself baptised as a baby, but grew up in a very secular environment. I remember having religious thoughts as a child, but by my late teens I had already lost any hope for God's existence, and going through confirmation didn't change my doubts at all. When I came of age, I immediately left the church, as it made no sense for me to stay.
Today my atheistic world view is stronger than ever. I love listening to theological debates (also between believers) and essays on religious history, but the more I learn, the more obvious it becomes that religion is the product of a human culture evolving over thousands of years.
Have you ever read the Bible in its entirety?
@@jeffcaminiti162 No, I have not. Only the book of revelation because I thought it was wicked cool as a kid, and various bits and pieces in religion class and confirmation school. I have a decent knowledge of the main narratives of the old testament and the gospels, but I'd be reluctant to debate the intricacies of scripture because I don't consider myself qualified to do so. I leave such matters to atheists who have studies scripture extensively, such as GMS (who was mentioned in this video) or Matt Dillahunty.
Heck, I even once watched a rabbi tear a Christian theologian to shreds over scripture. It was quite the theological pounding.
Social pressure to conform to the humanistic and ultra progressive zeitgeist; fear of losing friendships and causing friction within families; and fear of radical social media mobs.
A strange list considering the west (U.S. especially) is dominated by Christianity both in numbers and political power base.
Also considering the enormous societal pressure that Christian majority puts on everyone to be like them "or else".
It would seem reality does not match the religious claim you're making.
@@stiimuli or else what? How I see the United States is that if you don't become woke you are canceled. If you don't agree with BLM and the critical race theory you are racist. If we say a man is man and woman a woman biologically then we are going against science which makes no sense. They want to indoctrinate our children to believe these lies. What Christians want is for society not to impose what I consider low standards for morality on us or our children because politics has to do with morality. They even went as far as to take away Richard Dawkins Humanist award for using science.I saw a transgender man breastfeeding a new born baby as if he could. The hole thing is ridiculous and you say us Christians are forcing our beliefs on you or else? Christians shouldn't force our "religion" on anyone it's a personal choice. We just want people to know God does exist Jesus does save, christianity is true and God is calling because time is short. The Jews are awaiting their Messiah and the temple is ready to be rebuild. People need to wake up and make a decision on who they are going to follow.
Don't forget ,seeing the religiously sanctioned and societally condoned systematic dehumanization of homosexuality that leads to the permissive atmosphere that justifies contempt and hatred through subjective ( and, therefore, contextually unfair and invalid) comparison that ultimately shatters the golden rule, all in the name of religion.
Unity on the essentials. Charity on secondary issues.
Highlight the essentials. They are written.
Thanks!
It was painful when I left. It was like a death in the family. When I did leave I was more happy and felt that a burden was lifted. I don't "sin it up" and I have not done anything different as to how I live after I deconverted pretty much. Most Christians think because we deconvert we go nuts and do every sin under the sun and that is just not true. I was brought up in Christianity since I was two years old. I got saved (Yes I understood) at five years old. I was a fundamentalist for 40 years. That is part of what makes you who you are.
Hey, can I ask you honestly - why does it feel happier? I am a Christian who converted from atheism (there was some New Agey-ness in between) and I can't fathom ever feeling happy about God not existing, because for me it would mean the absence of hope, truth, love and meaning. How do you understand these things now? As much as can be explained in a UA-cam comment 😂 I am truly sorry for the painful process you've been through. 💖
My life has been so much better, I love stronger than before and I feel so much happier since I gave up the supernatural, superstitions of faith. I was a happy Christian but am a much happier, giving, caring and loving person since letting go of all of those fairytales.
@@ashleyl6790 You can still believe in a God without being christian.
@@jdnlaw1974 fairytales?
@@grimlund what’s your definition of being a Christian?
Dr Marriott interviewed the people deconverting…did he interview the people who the people deconverting said treated them poorly?
I’ve been married to an unbeliever for 43 years ( I want saved when we got married). Rest assured… God loves him and there is grace for such relationships.
@16:00 - SEVEN years, wow
Dr. Marriott's personal journey on the Beagle.
After 40-plus years as agnostic/atheist, I encountered God...then Christ...and then moved over 20 years through Protestant churches into the Catholic Church. I lived in a world of other atheists...and I still do. This discussion raises so many different ideas and responses that it is impossible to contain them in this comment. Would I love to exist in a totally Christian/Catholic world - including family and friends? Sure! But - what does that have to do with my own faith? Christ ate with Matthew and all his tax collector friends. He "sent out the twelve" to a Jewish/Gentile world that knew nothing of Christ and the Gospel. How can a Christian "not have anything in common" with friends who deconvert? How about breathing/eating/thinking as human beings? Meet your friends in their Crisis of Faith and be their Christian example who points to the road Home! Thanks for this discussion!!!
So true, some Christian groups make Christianity into a giant burden rather than a restful gift. Come to me all who are weary.
I had a very warm relationship with my father who was a devoted Christian. Read a degree in Theology at the London Schools of Theology and still deconverted. Attachment patterns formed in relationship with real parents don't point to whether god is real in any way. It may be that avoidant attachment simply makes it less likely that a person will form a relationship with an imaginary supernormal parent projected from their own mind as they have developed the resources to take care of themselves at an earlier stage.
Another cracker of a post! So enlightening ! I've learned a lot from this!❤
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
1 John 2:19
Yep, true Christians don't leave Christ regardless of their circumstances.
@@c.m.granger6870 I think you mean that emotional arguments or minor intellectual disagreements should not immediately result in apostasy, especially considering theistic philosophy and pascals wager. :)
Exactly. My life has not been easy I've had ups and downs and questions but Im secure in my faith. We all as human creatures will have hard times and questions but what do you hold on to if you leave Christianity? Once you've had a true relationship with Christ and tasted salvation how can you turn completely away and believe in nothing? It's illogical for me.
Amd let's just says your having an intellectual crisis. Then start the investigational studies on the resurrection and the validity of the Bible. The story of the cannanites doesn't bother me if we realize the true nature of sin and what it does. For goodness sake they were sacrificing their babies.
Sin must be punished....
@@hhstark8663 nope, I mean true Christians don't leave Christ regardless of their circumstances.
@@abullard8409 well said!
The more a person really knows of the bible and Christianity the harder it is to believe mythology is real. Once the fallacy is exposed, people leave.
What do you mean by fallacy? What do you know now that made you leave?
Agree, the more I see that Christianity is evidentially true, the more I can dismiss the mythologies.
@@dougsmith6346 - Then you are deluded in your belief Christianity is true. It is just one more of the religious mythology that have percolated through history.
@@douglasrasmussen480 you use the word 'mythology'. You are seriously claiming that the characters of the historical record didn't exist? They are akin to Zeus and Hercules? No eyewitnesses claimed to touch, dialogue with, eat with, walk with, see in person any of the mythology gods. Real people of Scripture DID exist. Peter, John, Jesus, Paul, Pilate, Herod, et al. The historical claims of Scripture are all verifiable human beings with a historical footprint. You may not believe their eyewitness accounts, but to call them 'mythology' is dishonest and, well, juvenile
@@dougsmith6346 The bible is filled with real people, fabricated characters, and characters whose acts have been so exaggerated as to make the mundane appear miraculous. Your citation of putative apostles does not account for decades or centuries that passed in reporting what they saw - from unknown and multiple scribes. Another name for mythology is fiction and fiction frequently has real people and events that serve to lend artistic legitimacy to fictional works. This is what is seen in the bible. For example King David and King Solomon were real historical characters, but extensive archaeology of the areas where they existed finds their glorious, expansive kingdoms were no more than localized citadels. The Exodus has been roundly disproven as either outright false or a monumental exaggeration of a few families leaving Egypt. Prophecies attributed as proof of biblical legitimacy have been rejected on many factual levels. So, yes DS, the bible is a form of mythology and your willingness to engage in the fiction is what is juvenile.
So many critical issues were left out of this interview.
· The New Testament is heavily influenced by Aristotelian, NeoPlatonistic, Pythagorean, and Stoic philosophies, woven all throughout it.
· Zoroastrian and Egyptian influences abound.
· It copies extensively from the Greek pantheon and Mithraic beliefs. Luke and Acts are based heavily on Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, both in structure, detail, and quotes. The gospels also quote from and borrow storylines from Euripides and Virgil.
· The Gospel of Mark is based on the Zodiac, in the correct order of the constellations.
· The author of Luke heavily borrowed from Josephus and Plutarch.
· The NT quotes extensively from the Qumran/Dead Sea Scrolls.
· The NT quotes/plagiarizes the much older book of Enoch 100x, quotes other pseudepigraphal/deuterocanonical books hundreds of times, including endless quotes from The Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach/Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Esdras, Jubilees, Judith, Tobit, The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, The Assumption of Moses, The Book of Jasher, The Life of Adam and Eve, The Apocalypse of Zephaniah, etc.
· There are many quotes of earlier philosophers woven throughout the NT--not just where it's spelled out in Acts.
· Gematria (Jewish numerology) and early Kabbalah played a very large part, especially when mixed in with Pythagorean concepts (John 21's "153" fish, the numbers in the first 2 chapters of Luke, and all over Revelation).
· There are 40-50+ Gospels and 6+ books of Acts. There are at least 9 different endings to Mark. How do you know which one is the correct one?
· You didn't even touch on canonicity how many books floated in and out of the canon for hundreds of years.
· There are forgeries and counter forgeries, including inside the canon.
· There is extensive astrotheology woven in.
· You didn't touch on Roman state influences on the narrative.
· You didn't touch on the endless church power struggles, and that orthodoxy shifted on major levels many times.
You can't wave a magic wand over what happened 200 BC - 400 AD and act like Christianity is anything other than a Jewish version of a Greco-Roman mystery cult that heavily borrowed from endless "pagan" sources of the day.
The Bible doesn't look divine in any way.
And, as usual, you show ZERO admission of: "We're sincerely searching for the truth but are entirely aware that our current worldview may be entirely incorrect and we will adjust as new information becomes available." As always, you think you have the answers and there is no room whatsoever for you to be on the wrong side of the argument.
We will continue to expose the reality of where the NT came from, and will continue to help more and more people escape the cult of Christianity.
What a great topic.....there are so many reasons why some do not come to a full understanding of belief or faith in Jesus as The Only Way, The truth and The Life.....and why some leave....as a mature person I look back on all my lack of knowledge mainly which affected my belief....knowledge of other church goers and the difference to Christians, knowledge of God's word, knowledge about The bible, knowledge of organisational and personal power structures......how fairly useless our churches are....40 mins sermons, bible study maybe 1 hour per week....all ours run by Narcissists.....how is this possible I ask myself..., prayer meeting....our church does not have one, no discipline much, poor examples or communication from ministers, often non existent christian fellowship even from leaders...it is pathetic.....it is left to a really solid personal belief and I feel like I am fighting on alone except for Jesus. Lack of acknowledgement of how appalling a situation it is so there is no impetus to change....prayer is the only other avenue......churchgoers see the difference of you and you are like a deer in headlights as they go after you....interesting as an intellectual exercise in examining these places called churches....
@Redeemed Channel who said "A major problem is people having only a very surface-level understanding of scripture" Most people who deconvert start studying the bible harder than they ever would have if they were a Christian. I am reading the bible currently, every word from beginning to end. I have never done this and I went to Christian grade school, high school and College.
Muggles, sometimes understanding the opposing view provokes a quest for deeper understanding of our own view. Sites like this make civil conversation possible.
Or, should we relook at what is being left? Maybe there are objects of our faith SHOULD be abandoned or redefined.
Have you had a bad experience with someone in the church or someone who claims to be a Christian?
It depends on whether the aspect you are thinking of has been accepted by the church for 2000 years, or not.
If you disagree with calvinists, you should be an arminian.
If you disagree with arminian, you should be a wesleyan.
And so on (don´t forget the catholics and orthodox as well).
Those are still minor secondary theological issues.
The major primary theological issues are accepted regardless of denomination.
Such as?
Wow. This is a great presentation. I am currently in transition away from Evangelicalism. The Christian Forum I am on has asked me to re-designate my Faith. WTF??? I had been been questioning the scriptures, but I am still aligned with the Creeds. I lean toward Universalism for the theology of the final judgement. Authors like Peter Enns have captured my attention. I am being shunned because of my progressive leanings.
When I finally decided to read the bible, I found I no longer believed in judgment of my brothers and sisters, I believe we are all created in Gods image and can see a light in every person, it is not what shows on the outside, it is the heart within. I consider myself blessed because I can see this light.
It is literally mind blowing to know so many people who were believers and some how some way they leave the church but more than that, they leave Jesus. How do they do that? My heart is crushed for them but more than that it is crushed for Jesus 😭💔
When you wake up and realise that there is no "Jesus" then you also realise that there is no one to "leave".
_How do they do that?_
By realizing it's not true.
Some nasty comments here of course, will try to keep it respectful. First of all, I applaud the idea of looking at deconversion and hopefully also conversion statistically. Too often we just hear anecdotes, which are important to each individual, but zooming out to a high level can be informative i feel.
I think the wording is really important. How is a deconversion defined? I feel that most are brought up in a certain faith and their family and community usually promote it, so there wasn't much of a choice to "enter" the faith or opt out in the first place. I gradually grew out of the faith I was raised in, but would not deem it a deconversion, simply a phase I grew out of like being afraid of the dark as my world view developed. My guess is that this is true for many, but would like to see the stats. If experiences were similar these would need to be categorized as something other than deconversions, maybe world view maturations?
It would be interesting as well to see stats on reasons given by adults for converting faiths or finding faith.
I wrote an article on deconversion for the Dutch magazine that I write for. Based on my own story and the co-author, who also lost her faith. Mine was slow and gradual, hers was instant. Mine started because of moral implications, hers was because of a crisis. According the psychologist that specialises in religion and faith, it really depends on the reason you deconverted.
Agreed, I grew up in a Christian family and thus identified as one early on. I experienced no pain or hardship, just realized I just never questioned it before.
@@roeliethegoat thanks for sharing. I too had moral objections when I started analyzing the beliefs instead of taking them on face value. To me it would be fascinating to see what percentage of the faith community:
-Was indoctrinated and simply never questioned their beliefs.
-Came to faith later in life after a life changing experience.
-left the faith later in life after a epiphany/life changing experience
-left the faith gradually as they questioned more and more (where you and I fit in)
-was raised in faith and grew in faithfulness through life no matter what.
There are probably a few more categories that make sense. The big problem would be gathering "honest" data and I have no good proposals for doing so, but am excited by the idea nonetheless.
I didn't see a lot of nasty comments?
What happens when you try to build your house on sand? That is a major problem!
Did God say? Come on, really?
God said He preserved His word. Psalm 12:6-7. Most modern bibles do not.
In other words they are not admitting that God has a standard, His inspired word.
So most of the modern bibles have at least one out and out lie. NKJB lies in Exodus 6:3. Others quote Jesus saying i am not going to the feast. John 7:8. (Is he saying he is going to break the law of Moses?) He waits and then goes. Liar!
And blatantly they mock Jesus and continually and constantly, with each change ask, Did God say?
Did God say Mark 11:26? Absolutely. It is an essential part of our walk with God. Truly a stupid question.
Did God say? Acts 15:34? It shows God's divine providence. Silas was there when Paul needed him for a journey. Another stupid question.
Did God say eleven (11) times in the New Testament the word damnation, eternal burning? Yes. But not in theirs!
Did God give three witnesses to that truth? Mark 9:44, 46, 48. They however only have v48. The other two they ask, Did Gid say? This is important because those who preach Annialism, we cease to exist, are easily proven wrong with these verses.
Jesus is God and Jesus is man. Hebrews supports this with four verses, 3:3, 7:24, 8:3 and 10:12: "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sin for ever, sat down at rhe right hand of God; v10:12. They do not use the clarifying words "this man at all. Again, Did God say?
Every change they make is an insult to God and His word.
God ssid He would curse those who add to or take from His word. Revelation 22:18-19.
In the Old Testament those who honored a false prophet received the reward of that prophet. So the original translators, the bible societies the publishers, the promoters, sellers and those who teach from them (showing those ear tickling bibles are God's word) pr honor them will be held responsible. If done ignorantly, repent.
God will not be mocked.
This happened when the inspired Antioch manuscripts called the Textus Receptus were replaced by the Alexandrian manuscripts called the Codex B or the Vaticanus from the Vatican basement, and the Sianiticus from a monestary. They do not agree with each other and the latter has about 30
changes per page. Obviously inspired by their spiritual father who brings conflict. doubt and despair.
King James Bible online
Helpful tool: Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online
Sources:
Adullum Films Documentary
-Tares Among the Wheat video
Books: The Revision Revised and The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both by William Burgon. Dean Burgon lived during the time of Wescott and Hort.
Book: Look What's Missing by David Daniels Chick.com.
If interested an old video called The Forbidden Book video.
It has some American History also.
The most compelling reason for me, as an atheist, that god does not exist is the fact that I want so badly for him to exist. This is in order to dispell the terrifying existential dread that exists for me without heaven, and this proves to me that someone could be motivated enough to make all of religion up in order to avoid existential dread and attempt to make others better people
You make a fair point Jose. Also consider that just because that could happen doesn’t mean it’s what is most probable. There are very strong arguments that God’s existence is the most logical explanation for the universe, life on Earth, and human existence. You may find the Inspiring Philosophy (Michael Jones) and Reasonable Faith (William Lane Craig) channels to be meaningful. They appeal to the more logical and intellectual evidences of God’s existence and Christ’s resurrection. I hope this helps!
For me, it's the opposite. I couldn't care less if a god exists or not. I don't really don't have a problem at all if an afterlife doesn't exist. One less thing to worry about. I'm not sure what is so terrifying about going back to the way you were before you were born - which is what most likely will happen after death.
@@pwoods100 what is terrifying for me is that I will never be able to experience anything again and that my life will be over. I understand that this is what it was like before I was born but now that I am able to live, I don't want to not live again.
Jose, from my research into the topic it is my conclusion that it is far more probable that there is life after death. Here are links to videos that present evidence that you may find very interesting. I hope this helps you on your search.
ua-cam.com/video/X8SO_aCk_sU/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/ZUOeY7sidvg/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/play/PL1mr9ZTZb3TUjEbz4zD0i_rfGiyB4AGQa.html
"If I fell off a horse I was never really on a horse to begin with". Reformed theology is one of the biggest reasons people are leaving the Church.
Great discussion BTW. Great things to think about for parents of teens.
Jonathan Edwards inspired me too as a young Christian. Had no clue he had left the Faith
DId Sean just say he "read it again this morning". He reads a whole book in one morning? lol
I thought the same thing 😆
Yep. It's a thing. I can do that!
I thought the same thing when he said that 😂
Hahahaha I thought the same 😊
Speed reading works well for a book you have read before.
The problem with atheism is that it offers no meaningful answers to the most important questions a person can ask. On the other hand, even with all of its diffculties, at its core Christianity presents message that I find compelling. I could never give that up for something as empty as atheism. And belive me, there are things about Christianity I find troubling. As Christians I think we need to be upfront about these things and talk about them.
Atheism isn't actually a thing so can't offer answers obviously. Losing faith is a little like running out of petrol in your car - it just doesn't work any more. But that's fine because you can get out and walk. And who knows what you will find?
@@treescape7 What a brilliant response 👏 👌 👍
@@treescape7 when you do it your way, it will never work. it's not about you, that's selfishness. follow christ, not yourself.
As far as the once saved always saved goes, I think that's an interesting point about setting people up for having a faith crisis. I'm not a Calvinist but I hold to eternal security. I've usually viewed this issue as one of evangelism (essentially, the other side of this coin). Apostacy is a real category in the Bible, and it's those who come and enjoy the church, but never commit. If we can prevent them from 'leaving' they might commit their lives to making Jesus their Lord.
My BEST FRIEND for years deconstructed, and he was the one who utterly rejected me. Just straight up stopped speaking to me suddenly. I have reached out to him many, many times to affirm my friendship and acceptance of him and his choices, but he absolutely refuses to have anything to do with anyone who professes belief in God. To be clear, I have several atheist friends who know where I stand and know I love them, so I'm pretty sure i didn't push him away.