In the words of Dick Greyson - “Bruce might have a replacement or a successor but no one will ever be Batman besides Bruce. Bruce is the embodiment of the cause and no one else could live up to that”. Kinda simplifying somethings but that’s the gist
Spider-man is not just a mantle. It's a personal hell he puts himself through as a form of redemption for failing to save his uncle, his father figure, and his statement that he's sacrificing practically everything to save the innocent because it's his RESPONSIBILITY. He lets down his loved ones consistently, the mass public usually despises him, and yet he still does what he does. Spider-man is his curse that he accepts. Making it a mantle drains his deep ocean and turns it into a pitiful kitty pool.
You also gotta respect how he's still able to crack jokes and make light of certain situations, but even he knows when its time to stop joking and time to get down to business.
@@EclipseHedgehog To be fair, it's not that he's just able to crack jokes, it's that he HAS to crack jokes. That's his way from not completely cracking under the pressure. Like people that ramble when they're nervous, Peter rambles and cracks jokes as his coping mechanism for stress.
But don't know why people like Miles Morales. Also you've got to admit out of all the new Marvel characters that came out he's probably the one fat people all around the board actually like
@@mr.x6313 My first introduction to Miles was Marvel's Spider-Man for the PS4. I hated his character because I didn't know who he was. His dad, Jefferson Davis, was amazing and I loved him instantly. My disgust for Miles was complete in the final scene: he gets bitten by Mary Jane's spider. I call it Mary Jane's because she was wearing the spider in her clothing for many hours before it leapt off of her and quickly bit Miles. I was seriously open to whatever weirdness they wanted to bring: even a spider-girl Mary Jane. Whatever, I didn't want it but I was very open to craziness. And using Mary Jane in so many missions definitely opened the door. But for it to magically switch and bite the next person just left a bad taste. Essentially, I hated Miles Morales for months. He didn't even have his dad's last name: Davis. That was his first strike. Jefferson Davis is a cool name. Miles Davis is an even cooler name. Why Morales? His dad dying the moment he showed up on the scene was his second strike. We lost a cool character in exchange for a lame one. Becoming playable was his third strike. I would much rather play a badass cop as a sidekick to Peter Parker than a sniveling little kid with no backstory. From there, it only got worse. Here's the kicker: I didn't find out until much later who this character was, what he represented, and the fact that *I* (me, personally) was *supposed* to like him. I'm half black and half hispanic. Just like Miles Morales. So I set out on a mission to try and hate him a little bit less. This mission resulted in me watching Into the Spiderverse. And I have to admit, it's a fun, funny, and slick movie. A worthy adventure. And it worked. I hate Miles just that much less.
That "Spider-Man is a mantle" thing was NEVER a thing until Bendis' excuse of a brain farted out Miles. Before that, Spider-Man was always the true reflection of Peter's inner self. J. M. DeMatteis handled this theme REALLY well in his run.
It kinda sucks that whenever people get recommended anything Spider-man these days when it comes to the comics, it's usually Bendis's run on Ultimate Spider-man and Miles Morales but never the original Ditko comics.
Even if Mayday and Miguel O'Hara are from different futures, there's at least some sense to their reason to take on the mask. Mayday became the Spunktacular Spider-Girl because of her willingness to use her gifts to help others, despite her father Peter's protest because of the obvious dangers he went through, and the time Mayday was presumed dead in the 90s Clone Saga. Miguel became the Spider-Man of the 22nd Century in a time where the OG became a folk hero whose powers were initially replicated in order to create corporate espionages.
"What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume. And that’s a good thing." - Stan Lee Facts don't care about your feelings
@@JEazy-jh1qp are you 10? Not to single you out all the replies are childish. Jax in MK can never be White. Spider-man is Peter Parker. Batman is Bruce Wayne. Luke Cage is Black. Black Panther is Black. We have our own super heroes. Storm is Black. You want a white storm? White Cyborg? WHITE STATIC SHOCK. Pull back on this miles bs. The jordans are an insult.
It's also strange if you think about it, because Thor Ragnarok shows that his hammer doesn't mean anything. He is Thor, God of Thunder. Yet they still want to use his hammer as a way to pass on his mantel to Jane.
I mean there’s a difference between spider-man and Thor odinson. One is an actual name given by birth and the other is a made up name by a character. Not saying your wrong with the whole mantle thing is just theres a difference
@@InfamousTerry4 Is the Punisher a mantel that can be passed on, or is Frank Castle _The_ Punisher? That's the point. Some titles can't be passed on. And funnily enough, Thor is becoming a title thats being passed on to Jane foster.
@@derrickcrawford1081 Miles isn't anything special, just Spiderman 2.0. It's incredibly easy to work for marvel, and then create a new character to take on the mantel. Here, I have one: His name is John Wilder. He grew up in the Wyoming and Montana area, fatherless home, single mother, eventually finds out he has similar abilities to wolverine through a traumatic experience, and kills his abusive step father. He leaves his home, meets the X men, and shadows Wolverine who teaches him to control his animalistic tendencies. There ya go. We got a whole new character.
@@demoniclily1892 the green lanterns definitely do, seeing how the green lanterns are a literal legion, the flashes how ever, not really. Only Barry and Wally have really been THE flash in any substantial way. But that's probably the biggest problem with GL in modern day, you want a new character? Make em a green lantern. Shit, that's how we got the teen lantern BS. They don't even make excuses for the one lantern per region rule anymore.
This. I can't believe how often this is overlooked now when it was a fundamental part of the "teenage superhero" concept. If Peter had somehow merited his powers he would have been chosen by some other hero and become a sidekick, that's how it worked back then.
true. that was a one in billion chance accident. considering the chances of that, he should have tried playing the lottery that day or go to the casino.
I actually disagree with this. The MCU can't have Steve Rogers be Captain America forever due to real world circumstances, so they have to have someone else take up the shield.
@@dominiccarrano9513 you can recast, captain america doesnt always need to be there. Plus there us precident since the super soldier serum gives him longer life span
@@CoolCATs2814 I like when Legacies are incorporated into stories. Game of Thrones, Star Wars, even Marvel sometimes. It's also a perfect reasoning for why a character would take on the mantel in a lore appropriate manner.
When Bruce was gone and Dick Grayson donned the cowl, he was a *different* Batman. The writers actually made it a point that Dick's approach was a bit different, his personality was different, others who knew Batman figured it out fast. You could even argue it helped further why Dick should be his own identity with Nightwing rather than trying to be the Batman Bruce was. Similarly, Terry's Batman in Batman Beyond worked because it was a totally different look, style, and approach to Batman by the new youth and also he had Bruce guiding him (and disagreeing with him at times). Captain America? The formula was lost and has failed to be recreated, though I thought Bucky worked as a temporary Cap because his life since WWII was so different it made a compelling conflict for him to try and live up to Steve (and because we all knew it would be temporary) Hulk? Freak accident, which I think makes She-Hulk work as well because she got her powers through a different method, allowing the writers to explore her being different from Banner despite the similarities of her being based off Hulk. Spider-Man? Peter was a freak accident. Spider-Man 2099 worked because of how different Miguel was in personality, approach, motives, and power origins. Plus 2099 was just getting to play around in a far possible future that Marvel likes to play in from time to time. Even Otto as Superior Spider-Man worked because again we knew it was temporary (despite Marvel's claims) and because Otto was SO DIFFERENT than Peter. The only not-Peter that came close to being Peter was Ben Reilly and, well...he was a clone (Scarlet Spider was still better than Sensational Spider-Man btw). What do these all have in common? Dick did his best, but ultimately he's no Bruce Wayne. Bucky may have done a decent job, but in the end he's still no Steve Rogers. Miguel wasn't even similar and for all his accomplishments, the end of the Superior run still established there's no Spider-Man like Peter Parker. Even She-Hulk definitely shows there's only one Hulk as her Hulked persona is vastly different. Steel, Cyborg Superman, etc. all emphasized there was only one true Superman. That's why his return was important. When it's temporary and ultimately reinforces why the original is the "one and only" I think these story arcs work. When they bring in a new character to be a copy of the original (Amadeus Cho Hulk, Red Hulk, Red She-Hulk, Skaar, Spider-Gwen, Miles Morales, Silk, X-23 (Even if I like her as Logan's surrogate daughter relationship), Daken, Honey Badger) they just feel derivative and lazy. Especially when they just take on the original's role and copy the personality.
Excellent explanation. I especially take note of your last sentence: they copy the personality. That's the most egregious offense. And it's the greatest sign of bad intent.
Just like how Thor’s a title even though it’s literally the name he was born with. Seriously everything is a mantle. Hawkeye, Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man. I wonder which paraplegic transsexual with take dr. Strange’s name next
Okay first of all Dennis Roady become Iron Man for a little bit? Second aren't there other Hulk's in the Marvel Universe including Red Hulk and She Hulk? And third isn't Doctor Strange his actual name?
@@derrickcrawford1081 Eventually they started treating hulk like it wasn't a name but his name and a type of creature, so hulk is the hulk but there are also hulks... its actually pretty annoying
The whole "mantle" thing seems like it's mostly regelaged to sidekick roles, such as Robin, Batgirl, Superboy, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Speedy, and Aqualad. There are exceptions to this in adult heroes, like Dr. Fate, Firestorm, Green Lantern, and I think Blue Beetle. It doesn't apply to the main heroes because they're legacies are well-known. And, those are also an extension of their personalities. For example, in an episode of "Batman Beyond", Bruce Wayne says that he doesn't call himself "Bruce" whenever he's in his own mind. Terry McGinnis asks what he calls himself, and he looks at him with this "What do you think?" type of look. And that's when Terry figures it out for himself. That moment right there is proof that Bruce and Batman are intertwined because, that is a psychological condition that Bruce has put himself in. No one else who has worn the cowl has that same experience.
I grew up with all of these characters, Bruce is Batman, Clark / Kal-el is Superman, Peter Parker is Spiderman, todays generation is ass, dont fack with my heroes
@@RaRmAn ah right teen titans, they would do that then. But my hope still stands they wouldn't do that with batman and robin dynamic. meh oh well I don't read comics anyways was either webtoons or manga for me. good luck comic readers.
I remember reading the novel for No Man's Land and Gordon was taking to Batman. He refered to the others who wore the mask while he was gone as "imposters or pretenders"
This is how I feel about people calling Thor a title. I've read and listened to so much Greek Mythology and to me Thor is one guy. If you're worthy you can get his power when you lift the hammer to an extent but you won't just be Thor.
@@Icemario87 And it wasn't an improvement of the original character nor was it much different than the original one, they did that so they can get the actor in the movie, I still like the original Fury more mostly due to his role in the original Ultimate Alliance.
I always wondered if Peter Parker still alive in the same universe where Milles morales is spiderman why don't they give Milles morales a different code name
The corps is a mantle, one dies, another takes its place. However, didn't Kyle take earth's sectors green lantern mantle? Isn't John assigned to another sector?
"You know, "boyfriend" is just a mantle after all, so it's not like I really cheated on you." - your ex-gf, when you caught her in bed with another guy.
I loved that the movies leaned toward the Ultimate comic version of Falcon. That's the comics that made me a Falcon fan. Then they made him Cap in the comics and I was like, why? Now they're doing it in the MCU. smh Should just of left him as Falcon and just shelve Capt. America and make a new character.
I am so sick of the mantle argument. That's always their first go to. These characters will never be as big as the ones they are copying. No matter how hard they try to shove them down our throats. I honestly feel bad for Miles. He should have been spun off to forge his own path but the problem is they keep giving him Peter's hand me downs. He has no rogues gallery or original storylines. For God's sake they are making him retread the clone saga. That didn't work with a literal Peter clone so what makes them think it will work with a different Peter clone. And it just robs the uniqueness of the original. I'm reminded of what Syndrome said in Incredibles "When everyone's super, no one will be." That's what happened to our heroes. Hey remember when it was cool to be a Jedi? Well that got flushed down the toilet. So many examples of that.
How is miles a "clone"? Because he has similar powers? Welcome to super heroes. Have you met the flashes? Green lanterns? Having similar power=/=they're the same people
@@DeepShadedGlassesGuy Sure. But the Green lanterns are like a police force so it makes sense to have multiple. And it's not as if they're all just Hal Jordan also Hal's not even the original green latern. Same thing with Flash, Jay garrick his own character, Barry Allen his own character, Wally west his own character it goes on. But they're not just the same character and they're not tokenised either. You could argue that miles is his own character with his own costume. But that's it, he has nothing unique to him apart from his powers. His origins the same and his story's the same, everything he does Peter has done already.
When Miles first came out they should have given him the Scarlet Spider approach and make him distance himself from the OG a bit, now it’s far too late to do that for him.
It would be an interesting plot point where Spiderman could tell Miles "You need to stop using the mantel of Spiderman. You're young, your life is ahead of you, and you need to carve your own identity. Form your own future. You don't need the title of Spiderman to be a hero. You're your own man, Miles."
@@eaglebearer I'm pretty sure he did say something along those lines in the comics in fact I think about it didn't Miles Morales change his name recently or am I thinking of someone else?
@@derrickcrawford1081 I'm kinda hoping thats not the case, because if Peter actually gave him that advice, and Miles still didn't change his title, then Miles is evidently an awful character.
It's only a mantle if a super power is from an inherited item. When some gender or race swapped version gets the exact same character specific powers that took the original being in an ideal perfect situation to get them, its a tokenized copy.
I just realized My Hero Academia has even pulled this off better. Midori's entire power set is inherited from All Might, it's passed down to him. Then he has to WORK HIS ASS OFF to manage even a fraction of the skill and power that All Might has and typically he damn nears kills himself trying because his body's not strong enough to handle it.
The one thing I hate the most about miles is he keeps taking his mask off. Spider-Man used to rarely ever take it off so people didn’t know who he was. Now it seems like miles does it all the time so you don’t forget he’s black.
They want to treat every super hero as a mantel, which isn't a good thing. As far as I'm concerned, there's only 1 Punisher, 1 Daredevil, 1 Electra, etc.
@@thespitefulartist It's also funny how whenever Mile's is referred to as "Spider-man" it's only by his real name and not anything else. It's even on the box art of the PS5 game. Too me, it kind of proves that he's living the shadow of the real Spider-man (Peter).
I feel like your a man I could sit down and have a real conversation with. All your talks hit home for me. After so many videos you sir have yourself a subscriber.
Even when they make original characters they make them awful. Example the new Brie Larson Star Wars character that they state is more powerful than Vader and Luke combined. They are trolling at this point.
@@kadrewilliams1513 she doesn't have a name yet. Apparently even her enemies are no match for her according to Disney. She'll control both the light and dark side completely. Total poop show
Id say Batgirl is the best "Tokenized" character we have had. Also, May Parker, Peters daughter who became Spider-Woman was a pretty good "Token" character. People love these characters, because they were done with respect and where characters first and the Gender second.
Even if it is a "mantle", whoever the "mantle" is passed to, has to be a unique and well written character, who deserves it. And even then the original holder of the "mantle" will always be considered the real one, and everyone afterward just don't feel genuine.
I'm saying that they should at the very least make the character unique in some way, since we know that they'll be handing out the titles of these heroes to other people, because the no original ideas. Make at least have some originally to them, so that they aren't just cheap knockoffs of the original character, like in the case of Peter Parker and Miles Morales. Miles has nothing original about him, since they didn't even try to make him unique in any way. He was just a discount copy of Peter, who happens to be black.
Also i dislike how they keep trying to make more Spider men, Spider-Man was one of the most self suficient heroes and really unique, they tried with the clone saga and since then just keep failing in making other characters because Peter Parker is Spider-Man, no one else.
Correctomundo. The only truly forgivable Spider clone is Superior. And only just so. And it still requires mercy, grace, and forgiveness, because it is an offense.
There's other spider ppl who r apart of the spider clan just have to be open to it which judging by young rippa n his audience yall r not open to other spider ppl
I felt the exact same way about Falcon; why can’t he just remain as Falcon? Are their writers just so horrible they can’t doing anything with the black characters they already have?
My issue with the "mantle" problem is calling the new character the SAME as the old one when the original still exists. Yes, there are temporary subs (like Dick Grayson as Batman), but it is, like you said, disingenuous to the original when both characters are suited up. Peter Parker is STILL Spider-Man and isn't retiring any time soon. Same with Kal-El and Bruce Wayne. The future timelines are one thing, as its a possible future where the original is no longer around. Then its about LEGACY. Batman Beyond is a great example. In Transformers, you have Rodimus Prime. Then there's Scott Lang as Ant Man. With She-Hulk, Batgirl, and Supergirl, they weren't REPLACING the originals but being ADDED to the mythos. However, Miles Morales (despite being a well liked character) really isn't Spider-Man. If he chose a new name, it wouldn't be so confusing, and would be more accepted since Peter Parker IS Spider-Man. Rhodey started as a new Iron Man, but thankfully took on his OWN identity as War Machine. I also think Sam Wilson should ALWAYS be the Falcon. They've upgraded his powers to the point where he is cool as he is and making him Cap, like you said, is a DEMOTION.
Basically, the comic industry has become a world were people write their fanfictions for the “new” superheros by putting in their own headcanons and self insert OCs. Thats why they try to defend their “mantle” because its hurts their feelings people dont love their fanfiction.
What always makes me facepalm is when people try to claim that a race/gender/sexuality-swapped character is somehow an improvement because "diversity". They don't seem to realize that all they're doing is given the people they claim to represent a cheap knock-off of an original character, and wanting us to be happy about it. I remember an interview some SJWish blog did with Stan Lee before his passing, and they asked him why Peter Parker couldn't be written as being black. Stan replied: "It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that. Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to." The response he got from the interviewer was "But that's HARD!" Yes. Yes it is. It's hard to create something new, something memorable, something that will last the test of time. But that's what's so rewarding about it. And that's why a lot of us hate the idea of just race/gender/sexuality-swapping something that already exists and going "ta dah, look! Diversity!" No. It's lazy and it's stupid. Stop it.
I really dislike how the new tokenized characters are being handled now a days. Like eveything has to be filled with social justice politics, like these new mutants coming out you have exact mirror images of original X-men being portrayed by trans people, or race/sex change. This doesn't make me homophobic this doesn't make me racist or sexist. Cause I would 100% be on board with those types of people playing a character IF they were newly created characters. Not taking some of my favorite X-men and spinning a SJW narrative on them and butchering them into something new just to play into your SJW narrative. And they get so butthurt when real fans not google normies call them out for being trash, then the original fans who have been fans for me going on like 28+ years now are racist or any kind of ist for not liking it.
The Forth Age had a great video about this "its a mantle" nonsense. It takes away from the special nature of the heros. Now Peter Parker is a Spiderman instead of the Spiderman.
@@derrickcrawford1081 because they’re young and don’t know when they’re being exploited. I know I was in my younger years before I realized these expansions are money grabs
@@derrickcrawford1081 The ps4 game and that animated movie propelled him into the spotlight and made him more unique than he is in the comics personality wise . Well at least the ones I read
The MCU version of Falcon made me take a second look at a character I just ignored. The costume and talking to birds thing mostly. I want to see Sam be Falcon, not the cheaper than Chris Evans version of Cap. You have a good actor and character, work with those.
Green Lantern Corp is a GREAT way to handle tokenized characters. There have been some great lantern characters, some not to much, but more better than bad.
love how every other spider character has a variation of spider-man's name, cept good ol' miles "the Spiderman of today" morales. Marvel knows that miles desperately needs the name Spiderman to matter at all, though lol since his comics don't sell at all and spiderverse was popular not due to miles, but the animation/music/many spiders carrying it and ya, this whole "every hero name is a mantle" is just BS they have been pushing so they can try and justify tokenising characters. Can't dare create new characters or promote existing PoC ones, that would require effort and creativity. Instead just tokenise an existing popular character and wank off to "oh look how diverse we are" while trying to force these tokenished characters on us, usually at the expense of existing characters that people actually like
I actually think Miles suffers from having the Spider-Man name instead of his own. It makes his stuff harder to follow if you actually want to see Miles stuff, because you have to read Ultimate Spider-Man, no, Ultimate comics: Spider-Man, no, Spider-Man, no, Spider-Man: Miles Morales (I think these were all actual titles of his comics). Meanwhile if you like Scarlet Spider there’s a Scarlet Spider comic (although there have been two different Scarlet Spiders…and at least three different unrelated Spider-women…I guess the spider verse just does a crap job of coming up with names)
You should've seen the latest episode of Falcon and the Winter Soldier. There was a cringy line where they're both walking through a neighborhood, and a young black kid goes up to Falcon and says "Hey! It's Black Falcon!" Falcon replies, "It's just Falcon." The kid says something like "it's what my dad calls you" and he says something like "Do they call you kid or black kid?" Obviously this is a shot at anyone saying that he's black Captain America.
my favorite comic book hero when i was little was mantle hero "The Phantom". i haven't read any new comic book for ages tho so have no idea how it surviving this clown era.
@@CoolCATs2814 yes it is or was. You might be right, the 90s movie was bad so it didnt help either. He is or was on of the bigger comicbook heros in my country but here his suit is blue and not purple XD
The only hope I got for falcon and the winter soldier is that Sam realizes during the end of the series run that he doesn't need the name and suit of Captain America to be the superhero to step up. He should realize that he is a hero that stands for what's good and just and that should be enough the symbol of that shield is someone else's and he was right from jump. If they make him black cap I'm done with having any hope they will make anything even semi decent when it comes to the cinematic universe but it looks like that's the way it will be because I mean look at the comics and also the state of the market right now pandering to people who are such a small portion of there audience if these people buy anything which they probably don't.
When I was young I saw the spider verse story from the animated series. Seeing different Peter Parkers was interesting. When Spider Woman came out I was fine with it. I expected it. But now it's getting stupid. The fact that they treat peoples' hero names as a mantle it fails in many ways. It's why Thor isn't a mantle or title. It's his name. He's a God!
@@djinsanity3575 I loved it too. But works much better if there's 1 Spiderman per universe and they only work together in special occasions like those two episodes
@@Yarblocosifilitico trust me I get it. And I don't hate that concept either. As a kid it wasn't bad seeing Spiderman, Spiderwoman, Venom and Carnage. Even enter the spider verse was great. But nowadays I hate what they've done. I can't keep up
Speaking of Mortal Kombat, I feel like they are going to use the whole Mantle excuse in the new movie with Scorpion & Cole Young, even though the name Scorpion isn't a mantle but the Specter that Hanzo was reborn as.
@@spndusk2362 only in DCAU, which was hated by most people (from what I've seen). the last run of Batman Beyond that was concluded few months ago was different continuity, with some things taken from DCAU. Which did not inlude this storyline
@Goddamn 47 Not DCAU, but that specific plot point, most people I've met claimed Terry being Bruce's son undermined his reasons for becoming Batman, because it seemed like it was pre-determined for him rather than being his choice
Maybe I'm wrong but watching this video reminded me of my dad. Specifically it reminded me of the time he was explaining "retired" numbers in sports to me when I was 5-7 years old and wondering about the numbers the people playing on tv. I'm reminded of this conversation because I was relating the superhero names/designs to the numbers on a team Jersey when listening to your explanation.
They used the mantle argument to justify gender swap Doctor. With Doctor Who, it's all supposed to be the same character. It's not like Green Lantern where you have space police recruiting an army. You can have multiple Lantern characters.
How can it be a mantle if Peter is still around, he doesn't really have a deep story with Miles following his steps and last but not least, Miles has done nothing to earn the title of Spiderman. Wally West becoming Flash after Barry died is a mantle, he was his partner and grew up to become his own thing (before DC fucked it up), Miles Morales is just black spiderman for the sake of it.
As a fan of Miles Morales even I can catch how flawed and out of control tokenism has gotten. At this point it's nothing more but a shallow tool to bring in a demographic that's never cared about the lore/Canon at all. They do it for flash in the pan success, then once the normies get bored they go back to the drawing board of identity political agendas. If you dare critique one of these characters then you're labeled. Tokenism is the strongest shield to abandon creativity and pander to those that dummy clap because a character is ( insert minority/pronouns), as apposed to genuine development around the person.
I actually like the idea you mentioned: A character whose hero identity was a mantle from the very beginning. That seems like it could be a really awesome idea to explore. I have seen it done really well in fantasy novels, I would love to see it in comic books. (Obviously, in regards to everything else you said, I disavow all tokenization on principle alone.)
Look, I like Miles Morales. He’s a legit character. He earned my respect. But, he wouldn’t be SpiderMan, if Peter Parker wasn’t there. This Mantle BS? HELL NO. Peter is SpiderMan. Bruce is Batman. Clark is Superman. Diana is Wonderwoman.
People want to take things because they cannot create. People that back the mantle argument have never created anything in their life but pain for anyone that has to deal with them.
With great power comes great responsibility. What makes Spider-Man special, especially to me, isn't Spider-Man's abilities although I love the concept but Peter himself. To act like just anyone can put on this "mantle" and be and do what he's done discredits Peter. I'm black. Grew up with Peter. Like Miles for what he is but he's no Peter and I wish they'd call Miles something else besides Spider-Man. Cuz he's not.
They like to call them “mantles” because they can’t build their own foundation, they gotta mooch off of others hard work.
Precisely
Mostly DC Legacy.
I prefer "leech".
U are all spot on
Especially if these characters/heroes are popular white males. Something to be erased.
Peter Parker IS Spider-Man. End of discussion.
I couldn't agree with you more! I feel like i'm a token now lol
He's the only Spiderman period.
@@spndusk2362 What does that make Stan Lee approved Takuya Yamashiro?
@@Ticketman99 alternate universe spiderman....even marvel says so on that one
@@jakethegreatest473 Then why can't they keep Miles in his own universe?
In the words of Dick Greyson - “Bruce might have a replacement or a successor but no one will ever be Batman besides Bruce. Bruce is the embodiment of the cause and no one else could live up to that”. Kinda simplifying somethings but that’s the gist
This statement rings true, they can make Batman a black man because these talentless fools have no new ideas but it isn't batman.
Batman Beyond was an entire show built around this
Terry wears the suit but Bruce is still Batman
@@r.connor9280 Terry IS Batman in Batman Beyond he isn't a Robin or anything else, he is batman
@@minato_arisato3751 Bruce will always be Batman till his dying day. After that then yeah Terry would be Batman
@@r.connor9280 From my point of view they are both Batman
Spider-man is not just a mantle. It's a personal hell he puts himself through as a form of redemption for failing to save his uncle, his father figure, and his statement that he's sacrificing practically everything to save the innocent because it's his RESPONSIBILITY. He lets down his loved ones consistently, the mass public usually despises him, and yet he still does what he does. Spider-man is his curse that he accepts. Making it a mantle drains his deep ocean and turns it into a pitiful kitty pool.
You also gotta respect how he's still able to crack jokes and make light of certain situations, but even he knows when its time to stop joking and time to get down to business.
Very good point.
What is Miles' deep reasoning for putting on the suit and being a hero?
@@EclipseHedgehog It's part of what makes him endearing. He makes light of awful situations despite how often he goes through hell.
Which is also why Tom Holland sucks ass as Spider-Man...
@@EclipseHedgehog To be fair, it's not that he's just able to crack jokes, it's that he HAS to crack jokes. That's his way from not completely cracking under the pressure. Like people that ramble when they're nervous, Peter rambles and cracks jokes as his coping mechanism for stress.
They don't like these tokenized characters. They just like the fact that you don't like them.
But don't know why people like Miles Morales.
Also you've got to admit out of all the new Marvel characters that came out he's probably the one fat people all around the board actually like
and they wonder why comic sales are down...
@@derrickcrawford1081 Because he isn't white/poor. Two background types they cannot stand apparently. 😂
@@derrickcrawford1081 To be fair, Miles Morales was reimagined into a very likable character in the spider-verse movie.
@@mr.x6313 My first introduction to Miles was Marvel's Spider-Man for the PS4. I hated his character because I didn't know who he was.
His dad, Jefferson Davis, was amazing and I loved him instantly. My disgust for Miles was complete in the final scene: he gets bitten by Mary Jane's spider.
I call it Mary Jane's because she was wearing the spider in her clothing for many hours before it leapt off of her and quickly bit Miles. I was seriously open to whatever weirdness they wanted to bring: even a spider-girl Mary Jane. Whatever, I didn't want it but I was very open to craziness. And using Mary Jane in so many missions definitely opened the door. But for it to magically switch and bite the next person just left a bad taste.
Essentially, I hated Miles Morales for months. He didn't even have his dad's last name: Davis. That was his first strike. Jefferson Davis is a cool name. Miles Davis is an even cooler name. Why Morales? His dad dying the moment he showed up on the scene was his second strike. We lost a cool character in exchange for a lame one. Becoming playable was his third strike. I would much rather play a badass cop as a sidekick to Peter Parker than a sniveling little kid with no backstory. From there, it only got worse.
Here's the kicker: I didn't find out until much later who this character was, what he represented, and the fact that *I* (me, personally) was *supposed* to like him. I'm half black and half hispanic. Just like Miles Morales. So I set out on a mission to try and hate him a little bit less.
This mission resulted in me watching Into the Spiderverse. And I have to admit, it's a fun, funny, and slick movie. A worthy adventure. And it worked. I hate Miles just that much less.
That "Spider-Man is a mantle" thing was NEVER a thing until Bendis' excuse of a brain farted out Miles. Before that, Spider-Man was always the true reflection of Peter's inner self. J. M. DeMatteis handled this theme REALLY well in his run.
Even dumber when they did this with Jane Foster and slapped the Thor name on her ass.
Ben Riley?
2099?
I dislike Miles highly but Spider-Man not being a mantle just isn't true.
It kinda sucks that whenever people get recommended anything Spider-man these days when it comes to the comics, it's usually Bendis's run on Ultimate Spider-man and Miles Morales but never the original Ditko comics.
@@doclouis4236 It's because the people doing the recommendation are the ones or work for the ones pushing the agenda.
@@doclouis4236 True. And even as someone who loved USM as a kid growing up, they aged poorly. I enjoy the old stuff much more than USM.
Peter Parker is Spider-Man. Period.
Even if Mayday and Miguel O'Hara are from different futures, there's at least some sense to their reason to take on the mask.
Mayday became the Spunktacular Spider-Girl because of her willingness to use her gifts to help others, despite her father Peter's protest because of the obvious dangers he went through, and the time Mayday was presumed dead in the 90s Clone Saga.
Miguel became the Spider-Man of the 22nd Century in a time where the OG became a folk hero whose powers were initially replicated in order to create corporate espionages.
Not to Twitter Puritans running the comics.
Cap. Miles Morales is my Spider Man.
"What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume. And that’s a good thing." - Stan Lee
Facts don't care about your feelings
@@JEazy-jh1qp are you 10?
Not to single you out all the replies are childish. Jax in MK can never be White. Spider-man is Peter Parker. Batman is Bruce Wayne. Luke Cage is Black. Black Panther is Black. We have our own super heroes. Storm is Black. You want a white storm? White Cyborg? WHITE STATIC SHOCK. Pull back on this miles bs. The jordans are an insult.
I was literally just arguing about this same subject about Jane foster. Thor is his name not a mantle.
Might as well rename it "The mighty Mjilnor"
Correct. His power via mjolnir is the mantle.
It's also strange if you think about it, because Thor Ragnarok shows that his hammer doesn't mean anything. He is Thor, God of Thunder.
Yet they still want to use his hammer as a way to pass on his mantel to Jane.
I mean there’s a difference between spider-man and Thor odinson. One is an actual name given by birth and the other is a made up name by a character. Not saying your wrong with the whole mantle thing is just theres a difference
@@InfamousTerry4 Is the Punisher a mantel that can be passed on, or is Frank Castle _The_ Punisher?
That's the point.
Some titles can't be passed on. And funnily enough, Thor is becoming a title thats being passed on to Jane foster.
Even if a character's title is a mantle, that isn't an excuse to create a lazy reskin.
I don't really get what you're talking about
@@derrickcrawford1081 Miles isn't anything special, just Spiderman 2.0.
It's incredibly easy to work for marvel, and then create a new character to take on the mantel.
Here, I have one: His name is John Wilder. He grew up in the Wyoming and Montana area, fatherless home, single mother, eventually finds out he has similar abilities to wolverine through a traumatic experience, and kills his abusive step father.
He leaves his home, meets the X men, and shadows Wolverine who teaches him to control his animalistic tendencies.
There ya go. We got a whole new character.
@@eaglebearer The story of John trying to overcome his guilt and control his powers seems more engulfing than anything Marvel is producing rn
Green lanterns and the flashes have a good concept of passing mantles.
@@demoniclily1892 the green lanterns definitely do, seeing how the green lanterns are a literal legion, the flashes how ever, not really. Only Barry and Wally have really been THE flash in any substantial way. But that's probably the biggest problem with GL in modern day, you want a new character? Make em a green lantern. Shit, that's how we got the teen lantern BS. They don't even make excuses for the one lantern per region rule anymore.
Peter Parker got his powers because a spider bit him, not because he deserved it.
This. I can't believe how often this is overlooked now when it was a fundamental part of the "teenage superhero" concept.
If Peter had somehow merited his powers he would have been chosen by some other hero and become a sidekick, that's how it worked back then.
he didnt deserved his powers but worked his ass off to deserve to be called a true superhero.
Yes, that's right. No superhero deserves their powers. If they believe they do, there's a good chance they're supervillains.
true. that was a one in billion chance accident. considering the chances of that, he should have tried playing the lottery that day or go to the casino.
Parker deserved to get bitten because he was teasing the spider by not using the proper "pronouns". 🤔... 🕷😜... 😳
*"NUFF SAID"™*
They are insulting falcon / sam wilson by making him someone else instead of just building up falcon
Falcon is wack
Yep.
But weren't Sam and Steve very close to friends?
I actually disagree with this. The MCU can't have Steve Rogers be Captain America forever due to real world circumstances, so they have to have someone else take up the shield.
@@dominiccarrano9513 you can recast, captain america doesnt always need to be there. Plus there us precident since the super soldier serum gives him longer life span
I've always thought the best way to re imagine a character, is through their children.
Wolverins son, and Hulks son, are good examples.
Wait wolverine and hulk have son's are canon?!
Yep, that's a legacy. Like Damian Wayne.
@@cashordeals3672 In 616, Daken and Skaar are both cannon.
Daken is also an example of a bi sexual character, which no one has a problem with.
But neither of them are good characters, daken and skaar are both inconsequential at best and gimmicks at worst
@@CoolCATs2814 I like when Legacies are incorporated into stories. Game of Thrones, Star Wars, even Marvel sometimes.
It's also a perfect reasoning for why a character would take on the mantel in a lore appropriate manner.
When Bruce was gone and Dick Grayson donned the cowl, he was a *different* Batman. The writers actually made it a point that Dick's approach was a bit different, his personality was different, others who knew Batman figured it out fast. You could even argue it helped further why Dick should be his own identity with Nightwing rather than trying to be the Batman Bruce was. Similarly, Terry's Batman in Batman Beyond worked because it was a totally different look, style, and approach to Batman by the new youth and also he had Bruce guiding him (and disagreeing with him at times).
Captain America? The formula was lost and has failed to be recreated, though I thought Bucky worked as a temporary Cap because his life since WWII was so different it made a compelling conflict for him to try and live up to Steve (and because we all knew it would be temporary)
Hulk? Freak accident, which I think makes She-Hulk work as well because she got her powers through a different method, allowing the writers to explore her being different from Banner despite the similarities of her being based off Hulk.
Spider-Man? Peter was a freak accident. Spider-Man 2099 worked because of how different Miguel was in personality, approach, motives, and power origins. Plus 2099 was just getting to play around in a far possible future that Marvel likes to play in from time to time. Even Otto as Superior Spider-Man worked because again we knew it was temporary (despite Marvel's claims) and because Otto was SO DIFFERENT than Peter. The only not-Peter that came close to being Peter was Ben Reilly and, well...he was a clone (Scarlet Spider was still better than Sensational Spider-Man btw).
What do these all have in common?
Dick did his best, but ultimately he's no Bruce Wayne.
Bucky may have done a decent job, but in the end he's still no Steve Rogers.
Miguel wasn't even similar and for all his accomplishments, the end of the Superior run still established there's no Spider-Man like Peter Parker.
Even She-Hulk definitely shows there's only one Hulk as her Hulked persona is vastly different.
Steel, Cyborg Superman, etc. all emphasized there was only one true Superman. That's why his return was important.
When it's temporary and ultimately reinforces why the original is the "one and only" I think these story arcs work. When they bring in a new character to be a copy of the original (Amadeus Cho Hulk, Red Hulk, Red She-Hulk, Skaar, Spider-Gwen, Miles Morales, Silk, X-23 (Even if I like her as Logan's surrogate daughter relationship), Daken, Honey Badger) they just feel derivative and lazy. Especially when they just take on the original's role and copy the personality.
Excellent explanation. I especially take note of your last sentence: they copy the personality. That's the most egregious offense. And it's the greatest sign of bad intent.
Just like how Thor’s a title even though it’s literally the name he was born with. Seriously everything is a mantle. Hawkeye, Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man. I wonder which paraplegic transsexual with take dr. Strange’s name next
Okay first of all Dennis Roady become Iron Man for a little bit?
Second aren't there other Hulk's in the Marvel Universe including Red Hulk and She Hulk?
And third isn't Doctor Strange his actual name?
@@derrickcrawford1081 Strange is his name. Just like Thor.
Ru Paul gets into a drag race accident and goes on a spiritual journey and becomes drag wizard extreme supreme. Marvel pay me monies!!! 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑
@@derrickcrawford1081 Eventually they started treating hulk like it wasn't a name but his name and a type of creature, so hulk is the hulk but there are also hulks... its actually pretty annoying
Carol danvers
Miles isn't Spider-Man. Aunt May isn't Spider-Man. Gwen isn't Spider-Man. A pig isn't Spider-Man. There's only one Spider-Man and it's Peter Parker.
The whole "mantle" thing seems like it's mostly regelaged to sidekick roles, such as Robin, Batgirl, Superboy, Wonder Girl, Kid Flash, Speedy, and Aqualad. There are exceptions to this in adult heroes, like Dr. Fate, Firestorm, Green Lantern, and I think Blue Beetle. It doesn't apply to the main heroes because they're legacies are well-known. And, those are also an extension of their personalities. For example, in an episode of "Batman Beyond", Bruce Wayne says that he doesn't call himself "Bruce" whenever he's in his own mind. Terry McGinnis asks what he calls himself, and he looks at him with this "What do you think?" type of look. And that's when Terry figures it out for himself. That moment right there is proof that Bruce and Batman are intertwined because, that is a psychological condition that Bruce has put himself in. No one else who has worn the cowl has that same experience.
Black Spider-Man: "It's a mantle!"
White Black Panther: "It's a racism!"
Oh yeah cuz so many white people are from wakanda😐
@@DeepShadedGlassesGuy [skincolor_swap_excuse_joke_here], that is why.
Japan: new great characters each year
Usa: Uhh... Paralytic Asian Hulk I guess? Nah, better a rock called Geode
I grew up with all of these characters, Bruce is Batman, Clark / Kal-el is Superman, Peter Parker is Spiderman, todays generation is ass, dont fack with my heroes
Too bad
But comics have multi verses.... literally
@@LatrellHassell but they aren’t fueled by “woke” Twitter basement dwellers ideals
@@LatrellHassell guess what it stays as a multiverse
Instead of bringing blade or spawn back which would be sick, they keep pandering to to hide how creatively bankrupt they are.
Especially since MJW said he would do another movie. I still have the original and the first run of comics...
There is no mantle to be passed. It has only ever been stories about individuals. You can't just assume a hero's legacy via identity theft.
Maybe they'll hear it the thousandth time you say it. Either way, mad respect. I'm almost out of reasons to care at this point.
Any video that starts with “Let’s define it for the crackheads” is a win to me. 😂
Sus
Amogus
Cccccuuuuuuttt
I think thaat i li ke y ou.
Green Lantern is one of the few examples of it being a Mantle. Other than that im blanking.
Robin
@@HunterBidensHandgun either they quit, or die fair enough
@@HunterBidensHandgun they will never tokenize Robin because he is seen as a sidekick and he would be under "servitude" of a white rich guy
@@KAMFP Titans season 3, made Tim Drake half black half asian street kid.
@@RaRmAn ah right teen titans, they would do that then. But my hope still stands they wouldn't do that with batman and robin dynamic. meh oh well I don't read comics anyways was either webtoons or manga for me. good luck comic readers.
I remember reading the novel for No Man's Land and Gordon was taking to Batman. He refered to the others who wore the mask while he was gone as "imposters or pretenders"
This is how I feel about people calling Thor a title. I've read and listened to so much Greek Mythology and to me Thor is one guy. If you're worthy you can get his power when you lift the hammer to an extent but you won't just be Thor.
You would if he was dead.
@@maravertin Oh yeah, that old man only ever thinks with his smaller head. He's damn cunning with all those disguised though no lie.
@@Piquliar Norse mythology, bro.
Blue Marvel>Black Peter Parker
Icon > Black Superman
Blue Beetle seems like the only legacy character get race swap and turn out better, mostly because it's a complete different character.
@@GHOSTRIDER373737 They race swapped Nick Fury.
@@Icemario87 And it wasn't an improvement of the original character nor was it much different than the original one, they did that so they can get the actor in the movie, I still like the original Fury more mostly due to his role in the original Ultimate Alliance.
@@GHOSTRIDER373737 True.
The movie "The Mask". Whoever puts on the mask becomes the mask. That mask is a mantle. This is a rare trope but, workable.
Because "the Mask" is a spirit that enhances the wearer's id to uninhibited levels while displaying godlike powers.
Even so, "The Mask" is Stanley Ipkiss (sp?). Anyone else putting on the mask becomes someone completely different.
@@Icemario87 It's a reference to the comics; though its actual name is "Big Head".
@@DarsiPadilla Thanks for the footnote. Yea, I was responding to Maloy. I think your comment speaks for itself.
Doctor fate is the prime example of a mantle character because he was established as such from the beginning
The mantle thing has literally just become an excuse to be lazy.
Spider man is not a mantle, it's a soul and that soul is Peter Parker.
I always wondered if Peter Parker still alive in the same universe where Milles morales is spiderman why don't they give Milles morales a different code name
They tried...
The called him Spi-D OR Spider-Kid.
@@andresanguianozuniga6798 Honestly, a pirate, whose arms were cut off while having parts of eyes, named Larry is more...peculiar.
I never wanted to blow my brains out as much as when some guy on Twitter said that Hal Jordan passed the GL mantle onto John Stewart.
The corps is a mantle, one dies, another takes its place. However, didn't Kyle take earth's sectors green lantern mantle? Isn't John assigned to another sector?
Alan Scott should be the only green lantern.
You know Hal is not the original Green Lantern right? That was Alan Scott
@@raam726 I disagree
Batman is Bruce Wayne just like 007 is James Bond.
I would rather have Falcon's suit over Cap's any day. He can fly.
"You know, "boyfriend" is just a mantle after all, so it's not like I really cheated on you." - your ex-gf, when you caught her in bed with another guy.
Spider-Man (Peter Parker) has the best superhero origin. Giving anyone else spider powers and a costume is nothing but a cipher in a suit.
I loved that the movies leaned toward the Ultimate comic version of Falcon. That's the comics that made me a Falcon fan. Then they made him Cap in the comics and I was like, why? Now they're doing it in the MCU. smh Should just of left him as Falcon and just shelve Capt. America and make a new character.
I am so sick of the mantle argument. That's always their first go to. These characters will never be as big as the ones they are copying. No matter how hard they try to shove them down our throats. I honestly feel bad for Miles. He should have been spun off to forge his own path but the problem is they keep giving him Peter's hand me downs. He has no rogues gallery or original storylines. For God's sake they are making him retread the clone saga. That didn't work with a literal Peter clone so what makes them think it will work with a different Peter clone. And it just robs the uniqueness of the original. I'm reminded of what Syndrome said in Incredibles "When everyone's super, no one will be." That's what happened to our heroes. Hey remember when it was cool to be a Jedi? Well that got flushed down the toilet. So many examples of that.
It's always their go-to whenever it involves white male characters/heroes.
@@spndusk2362 White Males need to pass on the mantle of European superpowers onto other races and sexes.
How is miles a "clone"? Because he has similar powers? Welcome to super heroes.
Have you met the flashes?
Green lanterns?
Having similar power=/=they're the same people
@@DeepShadedGlassesGuy Sure. But the Green lanterns are like a police force so it makes sense to have multiple. And it's not as if they're all just Hal Jordan also Hal's not even the original green latern. Same thing with Flash, Jay garrick his own character, Barry Allen his own character, Wally west his own character it goes on. But they're not just the same character and they're not tokenised either.
You could argue that miles is his own character with his own costume. But that's it, he has nothing unique to him apart from his powers. His origins the same and his story's the same, everything he does Peter has done already.
When Miles first came out they should have given him the Scarlet Spider approach and make him distance himself from the OG a bit, now it’s far too late to do that for him.
I agree.
I'm so glad you mentioned that because I actually like Ben Rielly, he's one of the good things to come from the clone saga
But they don't want to distance themselves. They want to eventually replace white Spiderman.
This would've been great but I admittedly love the Black and red
there's a reason his movie and game both flopped. Miles is not Spiderman and will NEVER be Spiderman.
They dont care for these characters, they just care that we lose ours
Yep, "The past must die;" it's Disney's "The Last Jedi" all over again.
Imagine Dennis the Secret Male Amazonian comic series. I wonder how these people would react. The paradox would break them.
Who are you talkin about
@@derrickcrawford1081 Those going with "it's only a mantle argument" but would loose their mind if it's not the "correct kind of gender/race swap"
Idk, they'll make him transition Amazonian
Imagine White Panther rightful ruler of Wakanda.
@@welderbear6757 omg, you know they'd flip their shit if that mantle got handed down to a white guy
Spider-Man/Peter Parker works well on his own. Miles will always just be a wanna be with similar power's with slight differences.
It would be an interesting plot point where Spiderman could tell Miles "You need to stop using the mantel of Spiderman. You're young, your life is ahead of you, and you need to carve your own identity. Form your own future. You don't need the title of Spiderman to be a hero. You're your own man, Miles."
@@eaglebearer I'm pretty sure he did say something along those lines in the comics in fact I think about it didn't Miles Morales change his name recently or am I thinking of someone else?
@@derrickcrawford1081 I'm kinda hoping thats not the case, because if Peter actually gave him that advice, and Miles still didn't change his title, then Miles is evidently an awful character.
Miles could have been so much more if he wasn't spiderman
@@derrickcrawford1081 he didn't. In the comics he was happy with miles being spiderman. But doesn't change how badly miles is as spiderman.
It's only a mantle if a super power is from an inherited item. When some gender or race swapped version gets the exact same character specific powers that took the original being in an ideal perfect situation to get them, its a tokenized copy.
I just realized My Hero Academia has even pulled this off better. Midori's entire power set is inherited from All Might, it's passed down to him.
Then he has to WORK HIS ASS OFF to manage even a fraction of the skill and power that All Might has and typically he damn nears kills himself trying because his body's not strong enough to handle it.
@@ninjafoxgamesgeekery In addition, the power being passed down is an established part of that All Might's ability since he inherited it as well.
Steve will always be Capt. Both Clint and Bucky took up the shield when he was “dead” and they admitted that they couldn’t do it.
The one thing I hate the most about miles is he keeps taking his mask off. Spider-Man used to rarely ever take it off so people didn’t know who he was. Now it seems like miles does it all the time so you don’t forget he’s black.
But I want to forget.
Get em, big man!
So many other super hero characters have that "mantle" status like The Flash or any of the Robins. Since when did Spider-man become that exactly?
When they started to use the Multiverse excuse.
They want to treat every super hero as a mantel, which isn't a good thing.
As far as I'm concerned, there's only 1 Punisher, 1 Daredevil, 1 Electra, etc.
When they took his daughter away.
@@thespitefulartist It's also funny how whenever Mile's is referred to as "Spider-man" it's only by his real name and not anything else. It's even on the box art of the PS5 game. Too me, it kind of proves that he's living the shadow of the real Spider-man (Peter).
Don't forget Thor, he's become a mantle too.
Man! When it comes to comics YOU ARE SO REAL and I love it!!
It's not a mantle, it's apart of the characters identity.
I feel like your a man I could sit down and have a real conversation with. All your talks hit home for me. After so many videos you sir have yourself a subscriber.
Even when they make original characters they make them awful. Example the new Brie Larson Star Wars character that they state is more powerful than Vader and Luke combined. They are trolling at this point.
Didn't that turn out to be just a rumor?
@@derrickcrawford1081 God I hope so. I didn't hear that it was a rumor.
Yo which character you talking about? Where does she appear? Am I about to bust down laughing?
@@kadrewilliams1513 she doesn't have a name yet. Apparently even her enemies are no match for her according to Disney. She'll control both the light and dark side completely. Total poop show
@@lukeviruswalker7541 yo I’m dying bruv. They really bout to pull that nonsense huh. Might as well mock and leave.
Id say Batgirl is the best "Tokenized" character we have had. Also, May Parker, Peters daughter who became Spider-Woman was a pretty good "Token" character. People love these characters, because they were done with respect and where characters first and the Gender second.
Even if it is a "mantle", whoever the "mantle" is passed to, has to be a unique and well written character, who deserves it. And even then the original holder of the "mantle" will always be considered the real one, and everyone afterward just don't feel genuine.
So they can have the title but at least be original and unique ?
I'm saying that they should at the very least make the character unique in some way, since we know that they'll be handing out the titles of these heroes to other people, because the no original ideas. Make at least have some originally to them, so that they aren't just cheap knockoffs of the original character, like in the case of Peter Parker and Miles Morales. Miles has nothing original about him, since they didn't even try to make him unique in any way. He was just a discount copy of Peter, who happens to be black.
@@sunkenobi1501 Batman Beyond doesn't live up to Batman. But he fits the bill for "recipient of mantle" without being a completely cheap rendition.
@@toanaboogegefrancis7221 got it.
"It's just a mantle bro"
ok, so it *IS* okay to make Black Panther a Right-Wing Straight White Christian Man after all.
hey it's just a mantle right?
Also i dislike how they keep trying to make more Spider men, Spider-Man was one of the most self suficient heroes and really unique, they tried with the clone saga and since then just keep failing in making other characters because Peter Parker is Spider-Man, no one else.
Correctomundo. The only truly forgivable Spider clone is Superior. And only just so. And it still requires mercy, grace, and forgiveness, because it is an offense.
There's other spider ppl who r apart of the spider clan just have to be open to it which judging by young rippa n his audience yall r not open to other spider ppl
I felt the exact same way about Falcon; why can’t he just remain as Falcon? Are their writers just so horrible they can’t doing anything with the black characters they already have?
Those Mortal Kombat leg sweeps be serious 😅
When all else fails, leg sweep and uppercut your way to victory.
My issue with the "mantle" problem is calling the new character the SAME as the old one when the original still exists. Yes, there are temporary subs (like Dick Grayson as Batman), but it is, like you said, disingenuous to the original when both characters are suited up. Peter Parker is STILL Spider-Man and isn't retiring any time soon. Same with Kal-El and Bruce Wayne. The future timelines are one thing, as its a possible future where the original is no longer around. Then its about LEGACY. Batman Beyond is a great example. In Transformers, you have Rodimus Prime. Then there's Scott Lang as Ant Man. With She-Hulk, Batgirl, and Supergirl, they weren't REPLACING the originals but being ADDED to the mythos. However, Miles Morales (despite being a well liked character) really isn't Spider-Man. If he chose a new name, it wouldn't be so confusing, and would be more accepted since Peter Parker IS Spider-Man. Rhodey started as a new Iron Man, but thankfully took on his OWN identity as War Machine. I also think Sam Wilson should ALWAYS be the Falcon. They've upgraded his powers to the point where he is cool as he is and making him Cap, like you said, is a DEMOTION.
I love the way Eric says "crackhayds". Reminds me of Charles Barkley and his "knucklehayds".
They deserve more than a Mortal Kombat leg sweep. They deserve a Mortal Kombat uppercut as well.
She-Hulk was also turned into a She-Hulk in a good way. Bruce gave her his blood so she became She-Hulk.
God bless you for calling all these weirdos out on the HEIST they are attempting. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Basically, the comic industry has become a world were people write their fanfictions for the “new” superheros by putting in their own headcanons and self insert OCs. Thats why they try to defend their “mantle” because its hurts their feelings people dont love their fanfiction.
What always makes me facepalm is when people try to claim that a race/gender/sexuality-swapped character is somehow an improvement because "diversity". They don't seem to realize that all they're doing is given the people they claim to represent a cheap knock-off of an original character, and wanting us to be happy about it. I remember an interview some SJWish blog did with Stan Lee before his passing, and they asked him why Peter Parker couldn't be written as being black.
Stan replied: "It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that. Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to."
The response he got from the interviewer was "But that's HARD!"
Yes. Yes it is. It's hard to create something new, something memorable, something that will last the test of time. But that's what's so rewarding about it. And that's why a lot of us hate the idea of just race/gender/sexuality-swapping something that already exists and going "ta dah, look! Diversity!" No. It's lazy and it's stupid. Stop it.
"But Spider-Man is just an idea. Come on, man!" - Joe Biden, probably
I really dislike how the new tokenized characters are being handled now a days. Like eveything has to be filled with social justice politics, like these new mutants coming out you have exact mirror images of original X-men being portrayed by trans people, or race/sex change. This doesn't make me homophobic this doesn't make me racist or sexist. Cause I would 100% be on board with those types of people playing a character IF they were newly created characters. Not taking some of my favorite X-men and spinning a SJW narrative on them and butchering them into something new just to play into your SJW narrative. And they get so butthurt when real fans not google normies call them out for being trash, then the original fans who have been fans for me going on like 28+ years now are racist or any kind of ist for not liking it.
I’d understand the idea of a hero name being passed down if it’s like the hero’s son
It's not a mantle, but it IS mental to say it's a mantle.
The Forth Age had a great video about this "its a mantle" nonsense. It takes away from the special nature of the heros. Now Peter Parker is a Spiderman instead of the Spiderman.
Miles. He's like young Peter, but none of the nuance!
If that's the case then how come so many people like him?
@@derrickcrawford1081 because they’re young and don’t know when they’re being exploited.
I know I was in my younger years before I realized these expansions are money grabs
Derrick, well miles checks off some diversity boxes and that is the only reason people like him.
@@derrickcrawford1081 The ps4 game and that animated movie propelled him into the spotlight and made him more unique than he is in the comics personality wise . Well at least the ones I read
The MCU version of Falcon made me take a second look at a character I just ignored. The costume and talking to birds thing mostly. I want to see Sam be Falcon, not the cheaper than Chris Evans version of Cap. You have a good actor and character, work with those.
I mean...they haven’t called him captain America and kept the name falcon
The truth always makes idiots mad lmao. Keep it up brother.
Green Lantern Corp is a GREAT way to handle tokenized characters. There have been some great lantern characters, some not to much, but more better than bad.
love how every other spider character has a variation of spider-man's name, cept good ol' miles "the Spiderman of today" morales. Marvel knows that miles desperately needs the name Spiderman to matter at all, though lol since his comics don't sell at all and spiderverse was popular not due to miles, but the animation/music/many spiders carrying it
and ya, this whole "every hero name is a mantle" is just BS they have been pushing so they can try and justify tokenising characters. Can't dare create new characters or promote existing PoC ones, that would require effort and creativity.
Instead just tokenise an existing popular character and wank off to "oh look how diverse we are" while trying to force these tokenished characters on us, usually at the expense of existing characters that people actually like
I actually think Miles suffers from having the Spider-Man name instead of his own. It makes his stuff harder to follow if you actually want to see Miles stuff, because you have to read Ultimate Spider-Man, no, Ultimate comics: Spider-Man, no, Spider-Man, no, Spider-Man: Miles Morales (I think these were all actual titles of his comics). Meanwhile if you like Scarlet Spider there’s a Scarlet Spider comic (although there have been two different Scarlet Spiders…and at least three different unrelated Spider-women…I guess the spider verse just does a crap job of coming up with names)
You should've seen the latest episode of Falcon and the Winter Soldier. There was a cringy line where they're both walking through a neighborhood, and a young black kid goes up to Falcon and says "Hey! It's Black Falcon!" Falcon replies, "It's just Falcon." The kid says something like "it's what my dad calls you" and he says something like "Do they call you kid or black kid?" Obviously this is a shot at anyone saying that he's black Captain America.
It's actually a welcome joke
Lmao they did that for real?😂
That sounds fucking hilarious
@@kadrewilliams1513 Yeah...they did it. And the way it seems to me was that they weren't playing it for laughs, but for poignancy.
....that’s actually a good joke
my favorite comic book hero when i was little was mantle hero "The Phantom". i haven't read any new comic book for ages tho so have no idea how it surviving this clown era.
The Phantom is a great example. Sadly I don't think many people remember him.
@@CoolCATs2814 yes it is or was. You might be right, the 90s movie was bad so it didnt help either. He is or was on of the bigger comicbook heros in my country but here his suit is blue and not purple XD
The only hope I got for falcon and the winter soldier is that Sam realizes during the end of the series run that he doesn't need the name and suit of Captain America to be the superhero to step up. He should realize that he is a hero that stands for what's good and just and that should be enough the symbol of that shield is someone else's and he was right from jump. If they make him black cap I'm done with having any hope they will make anything even semi decent when it comes to the cinematic universe but it looks like that's the way it will be because I mean look at the comics and also the state of the market right now pandering to people who are such a small portion of there audience if these people buy anything which they probably don't.
Falcon will become Cap and realize that Bucky
Deserves redemption and give him the shield!
When I was young I saw the spider verse story from the animated series. Seeing different Peter Parkers was interesting. When Spider Woman came out I was fine with it. I expected it. But now it's getting stupid.
The fact that they treat peoples' hero names as a mantle it fails in many ways. It's why Thor isn't a mantle or title. It's his name. He's a God!
I never liked it and now its ruined what made people like me love Spiderman.
@@spndusk2362 the original spider verse was all Peter from what if ideas. That's what I liked about it honestly if that's what you're walking about.
@@djinsanity3575 I loved it too. But works much better if there's 1 Spiderman per universe and they only work together in special occasions like those two episodes
@@Yarblocosifilitico trust me I get it. And I don't hate that concept either. As a kid it wasn't bad seeing Spiderman, Spiderwoman, Venom and Carnage. Even enter the spider verse was great. But nowadays I hate what they've done. I can't keep up
@@djinsanity3575 yeah I agree, they just pop up out of nowhere and everyone is special but they're basically the same. They went too far for sure
"Mortal kombat leg sweep you" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 yessssssss
Speaking of Mortal Kombat, I feel like they are going to use the whole Mantle excuse in the new movie with Scorpion & Cole Young, even though the name Scorpion isn't a mantle but the Specter that Hanzo was reborn as.
I don't know anything about this... but let me guess: Scorpion is going to be black?
@@Icemario87 nah, he being played by a japanese actor
@@thesilentsociety3252 So who's taking the "mantle?"
A lot of bitterness up in here .
I want o here Rippa talk about future iterations of a "mantle" such as Terry Mcginnis and Spiderman 2099
Terry is Bruce's son though so him coming into the mantle of Batman doesn't bother me.
@@spndusk2362 only in DCAU, which was hated by most people (from what I've seen). the last run of Batman Beyond that was concluded few months ago was different continuity, with some things taken from DCAU. Which did not inlude this storyline
@Goddamn 47 Not DCAU, but that specific plot point, most people I've met claimed Terry being Bruce's son undermined his reasons for becoming Batman, because it seemed like it was pre-determined for him rather than being his choice
Miguel and Terry are all characters from 20-30 years ago, no one cried about "mantles" and "tokenization" back than so don't cry about it now
@@creamednut7199 Not crying about it.Bug fan of those two characters. I was just asking him his opinion on the mantle argument.
Maybe I'm wrong but watching this video reminded me of my dad. Specifically it reminded me of the time he was explaining "retired" numbers in sports to me when I was 5-7 years old and wondering about the numbers the people playing on tv. I'm reminded of this conversation because I was relating the superhero names/designs to the numbers on a team Jersey when listening to your explanation.
Dr. Who is an example of a mantle style character and to compare that to Batman is ludicrous.
They used the mantle argument to justify gender swap Doctor. With Doctor Who, it's all supposed to be the same character. It's not like Green Lantern where you have space police recruiting an army. You can have multiple Lantern characters.
Give me Bruce Wayne or give me death
Give me Clark Kent or give me death
Simple as that
if we're making the argument of "mantles" then Bruce Wayne is a mantle because that's the real mask of batman.
Silly joke.
I consider Tokenization to be giving out sloppy seconds.
How can it be a mantle if Peter is still around, he doesn't really have a deep story with Miles following his steps and last but not least, Miles has done nothing to earn the title of Spiderman.
Wally West becoming Flash after Barry died is a mantle, he was his partner and grew up to become his own thing (before DC fucked it up), Miles Morales is just black spiderman for the sake of it.
I only liked the Miles Character after Spider-Verse fixed most of the issues I had with him in the comics
"Cyborg Superman" needs an actual supervillain name.
They usually just call him Henshaw now dont they? Either way I dont think the fans will stop calling him cyborg superman
He can be a cyborg villain 😄
I loved Falcon back when it was Cap America and the Falcon back in Bronze age, such a cool concept, and a cool character.
As a fan of Miles Morales even I can catch how flawed and out of control tokenism has gotten. At this point it's nothing more but a shallow tool to bring in a demographic that's never cared about the lore/Canon at all.
They do it for flash in the pan success, then once the normies get bored they go back to the drawing board of identity political agendas. If you dare critique one of these characters then you're labeled. Tokenism is the strongest shield to abandon creativity and pander to those that dummy clap because a character is ( insert minority/pronouns), as apposed to genuine development around the person.
I actually like the idea you mentioned: A character whose hero identity was a mantle from the very beginning. That seems like it could be a really awesome idea to explore. I have seen it done really well in fantasy novels, I would love to see it in comic books.
(Obviously, in regards to everything else you said, I disavow all tokenization on principle alone.)
Look, I like Miles Morales. He’s a legit character. He earned my respect.
But, he wouldn’t be SpiderMan, if Peter Parker wasn’t there.
This Mantle BS? HELL NO.
Peter is SpiderMan.
Bruce is Batman.
Clark is Superman.
Diana is Wonderwoman.
People want to take things because they cannot create. People that back the mantle argument have never created anything in their life but pain for anyone that has to deal with them.
Hahaha did you make this video after that ridiculous discussion on twitter? I honestly felt like going on a rant myself after that conversation.
"Mortal Kombat leg sweep"?...your a legend😄
With great power comes great responsibility. What makes Spider-Man special, especially to me, isn't Spider-Man's abilities although I love the concept but Peter himself. To act like just anyone can put on this "mantle" and be and do what he's done discredits Peter.
I'm black. Grew up with Peter. Like Miles for what he is but he's no Peter and I wish they'd call Miles something else besides Spider-Man. Cuz he's not.
They made the same excuse for Thor. Thor is the character's *_NAME,_* not his title.