"It's a mantle”
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- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
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Miles Morales Fans: “iT’s A mAnTlE!”
YoungRippa: “How many times do I have to teach this lesson man?!”
Stan Lee did say the Spiderman concept was made so anyone could be Spiderman.
@@mongooseunleashed …..did he, or did you?
@@mongooseunleashed Are you referring to this quote "What I like about the costume is that anybody reading Spider-Man in any part of the world can imagine that they themselves are under the costume. And that’s a good thing."
@@richards4556 Yeah. He also mentions Spiderman hides his identity so anyone could be under the mask.
@@mongooseunleashed Cause that's how masks work. It helps with the whole secret identity thing.
Batman Beyond has one of my favorite lines that does a near perfect job of capturing why Bruce Wayne is Batman. So there’s this villain that is trying to get Bruce Wayne to become psychotic. To become completely unhinged and go to an asylum. But Bruce figures it out and has Terry put a stop to it. Towards the end of the episode he tells us (and Terry) how he knew, “Because the voice kept calling me ‘Bruce’.” Terry: “Well what do you call yourself?” *Bruce just looks at Terry with a glare.* Terry: “Oh, right.”
The costume is Bruce wayne
I hated when they made it out to him being a clone of sorts ruin Terry being his own batman. On topic I always call him Batman beyond
@@unicornkaz1970 i liked it personally it tied everything up
*Terry smirks*: “But that’s my name now” I always loved Bruce and Terry’s dynamic
@@unicornkaz1970 they basically foreshadowed DC bender of "Batman is literally the most important human in the universe only slightly beat out by superman in terms of status in the multiverse" and to think, what they did to Terry would be considered "tame" by today's standards
I think Tony Stark and James Rhodes are the best example of "race swap doesn't work, let's just develop our own character." When Rhody took over for Tony as Iron Man during the "Demon in A Bottle" storyline there was a decent amount of backlash from the readers...because to them this wasn't the "genius millionaire playboy philanthropist" this was a military pilot who brought a whole different personality to the character. So they wrote that Rhody was "not connecting with the suit" and wrote Tony back into play. Rather than just keeping Rhody on the sidelines like a Pepper or something Rhody became War Machine who during my generation (late 80s and 90s) became WAY more interesting because he used those BIG ASS guns on his suit! He was his own man! He didn't need to be Iron Man 2.0. I feel as though Iron Heart fell into the same category. Marvel just never seems to learn their lessons.
It's a disservice to a character just making them "the next" something. All characters need their own identities.
Or think of steel and superman. John Henry irons became his own thing in the wake of supermans death to honor him, not try to replace him
@Iowa Nowhere There isn't a market for it. Mile Morales comics don't sell. Pay attention
I don't understand how they seems to be scared of creating a new superhero from another superheroes' surrounding. Like the OP said, Rhodey as a friend of Stark became War Machine, not Iron Man 2.0 but it's his own thing. Beta Ray Bill? He lifted Thor's hammer and gained his powers but he ain't no Thor despite many that continued to argue the "muh title" excuse.
WTF is with their spine? Why are they so afraid of actually developing a character into their own thing? X23 and Logan had a unique thing going on but instead of her inheriting a new name due to Logan's absence they just slapped on "Wolverine" on her. It's lazy.
Same as Spider-Man 2099 which is nothing like the original. He is literally an independent character and his own thing.
What ppl fail to understand is that in order for a role to a mantle it has to be assigned to someone by another person/entity. The Power Rangers would fit the example of being a mantle bc the rangers are usually selected by Zordon or whoever else is the commander figure so therefore anyone could potentially fill those roles. That can’t apply to the likes of Batman and Spider-Man bc it took specific circumstances for those characters to exist, that’s why Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker are specifically tied to their respective characters
Yeah, I feel with Batman in particular, there are a lot of “mantles” you could work with that don’t involve anyone actually being Batman.
Fictional characters can do whatever they want. Their are no rules because they are fictional characters... Read that again
@@jeremythomas2539 that’s called bad storytelling assuming you aren’t 5 years old. Heck, not even the people that argument would be defending actually think that.
@@hephsforge9236 subjective. Comic readers aren't a monolith and think in only one direction.
@@jeremythomas2539 I agree, however, the idea that a fictional character can do whatever they want goes beyond comics and into the concept of storytelling in general. I’d be glad to hear of a fictional character that truly existed beyond the limitations placed before them by the story being told and the storyteller though.
That is one of the things about One Piece, even when you have characters with similar abilities, they are entirely different in other ways. So much so, that One Piece characters rarely get confused with one another. A prime example in recent years was between Monkey D Luffy and Charlette Katakuri, they have near identical abilities but are so different in every other way.
Luffy got clapped in tht fight
Why isn’t Katakuri in Onigashima they wouldn’t contain him 😝
even characters in the same trope/cliche tend to be different enough. unless you're the protagonist. gotta respect people who nail protagonist nowadays
@@billybonregularjin The side characters are usually the most popular in every anime because the mains are always generic. For example people prefer Vegeta, Sasuke, Bakugo, Seto Kaiba, Kai, Kyoya, etc over the main characters of their series.
Or hell think if it this way. You have two people.who legit have the SAME DAMN POWERS in the mera mera no mi Ace and Sabo and the way they each use it is different even though its still pyrokenesis
Hearing Tom Holland's comments on Spider-Man needing to be more "diverse" really didn't ahock me because it's obvious that Marvel Studios/Entertainment doesn't respect the legacy of the late great Stan Lee. He literally wrote Peter Parker as a character with a one of a kind situation, making him different amongst all the other superheroes which is why he's such an iconic character to this day. If you like Miles Morales, that's totally fine but he didn't inherit the "mantle" of Spider-Man and is simply a tokenized version of an iconic character because it's easier to do that in mainstream comics today than it is to be ORIGINAL. Similar to how Calvin Ellis is a tokenized version of Clark Kent, and how America Chavez is a tokenized version of Captain Marvel, there is no passing down of a mantle and is straight ripping off of original characters.
Not sure if Chavez is a tokenization of Carol's Captain Marvel; but both of them are just badly written.
I say this, i am fine with mantles but only when the person getting truely earns it.
i think of the mantle thing, like someone appling for job, the most Skilled (or also in this case, one who respect the legacy characters ideals in full with no room for debate or question the OG ideals).
when they start of using the word Diverse, that all ready a failure, in my opinion.
P.S. Carol Danvers is also technically Tokenized too also stole name from DC character. XD
@@DarsiPadilla Chaves is the Hispanic captain America with CM powers
@@DgardsGaming Aye, Batman is technically a mantle. Bruce invented it and Bruce passed it on, only to take it back for various reasons for each time he passed it on. Bruce Wayne essentially created the equivalent of a ninja household that has the capacity to endure after Bruce is gone...
Spiderman is an everyman who just wants to have a life with his family, when he's allowed to have one these days. He's not looking to take on a sidekick to mold in his image and he doesn't push his children to take on the mantle unless they end up with powers so he can teach the power and responsibility lesson.
@@NormanReaddis added with convuluted retcons related to an "utopian parallel".
Spiderman isnt a mantle, hes petter parker, you cant have one with out the other, great power great responsibility, peter is the responsibility, spiderman is the power
the whole point of the character is that it could be anybody under the mask what the fuck are you talking about
@@xopokery no it isnt, people like spiderman because he is peter because peter goes through what most non wealthy americans go through, spiderman isnt a rich millionaire or any of that bullshit, peter is spiderman and you cant have one with out the other
@@xopokery ….get back to Twitter..
@@xopokery I love spiderverse, but that "Hey, everyone can be spiderman" line at the end of the movie is such a rotten thing to do. Now we got people like you going off based on that line alone.
Ben Riley
Whats funny is I recall in the 90s before Batman Beyond Bruce explicitely said once he was dead, Batman would go with him. He didn't want anyone to continue as Batman, he wanted to make Gotham safe enough that by the time he was gone Batman was no longer needed.
"A wise man once said that Peter Parker is Spiderman and Miles Morales is Miles Morales."
I think a good way to compare is with Manga’s own hero based story being My Hero Academia. Now put aside what you may feel about the series as a whole but in terms of the argument presented, it’s far more dynamic. The heroes and hero identities are wholly owned by that one hero, but their are positions and ideologies that other characters are inspired of and make their own identity. Deku is inspired by All Might, but All Might isn’t a mantle. His identity is his and his alone. Doesn’t mean his kind of ideas wouldn’t carry on and make other heroes. And that’s a problem with American comics. They treat the hero identities as loosely as a whore on Happy Hour. No respect and just gives it to the next person. Miles can never become his own character and that issue is solely on how they treat the spider man name.
MHA is the perfect example of how to actually have the "mantle" without it being a ripoff
One for All passed down, quirk genetics being passed etc while the characters are still unique
@@downnice95 The greater thing is that yes, in the beginning he tries so hard to mirror AllMight since he thought it's his power te begin with so Deku *needs* to be like him. As time goes, that's no longer the case since each time he explored his newfound powers he managed to turn AllMight's inherited quirk into something of his own, developing a new fighting style along the process.
Also kinda helps when AllMight slowly but constantly guiding Deku to be his own thing.
I think saint seiya handled it nicely, the original team got promoted to gold saints (except Ikki) so obviously they had to pass the mantle of the bronze saints to new fighters.
Amusingly enough, My Hero Academia was heavily inspired by American comics, was it not?
@@SirBlackReeds Well older comics it seems, cause no way this would be a thing with modern comics.
"Reimagining" = "I have no imagination of my own, what can I steal?"
Over the past 10 years I’ve just given up on comics, which is a shame because they played such a huge role in my life growing up. A few years ago I even went to a shop and tried to find something “new”. New ideas, new power, a comic with a new focus.
Everything was shit.
Vaginal Commiecs won't be missed by this disabled man
I remember going into a comic shop years ago to see what they had because I was out of it for so long and the price tags had me out of there before I really even looked around. I grew up when these things were so cheap that you could pick one up like it was a newspaper and have something to flip through or read for a few minutes in your spare time.
The Orange Man said everything woke turns into it...
This whole "it's a mantle" idea is so ridiculous, and it reaches new heights when a couple days ago I read an article talking about all the alternate versions of Peter within the Spider-Verse and putting them on a ranking list, and Miles Morales was the ONLY ONE where the author didn't write "assume the identity of Spider-Man" or "replace Spider-Man temporarily" or something to that effect, but instead "take over the mantle of Spider-Man". If it's not a mantle for 40+ other alternate versions, then it isn't for Miles either. Peter Parker is not *A* Spider-Man, he's *THE* Amazing Spider-Man.
Even stan Lee defends keeping Peter parker
Notice how they don't try to pull this with actually legacy characters like The Phantom? Granted The Phantom's whole deal is it's passed down from father to son but still they never use actual legacy characters. They always go for the staple character.
Good point.
Never heard of the phantom but a easy way to change it is to say parent to child
@@o.8.p149 That wouldn't be the change they're looking for, they want unrelated characters to be able to steal the mantle of established superheroes, like Riri Williams stealing Iron Man's tech and trying to claim that name.
They did. There was a discussion a couple of years before that the Phantom was a mantle, so he should be replaced by either a woman or a person of colour. Ignoring the whole myth of the Imortal Phantom, tied to his nature.
Nothing major. Just some forum discusion. But still there.
@@dancorneanu9144They're talking crazy. That would totally destroy the mythos behind the character. There's a reason why he's called the ghost who walks. That reason is the illusion that he is immortal since the mantle is passed down to the next phantom when the previous one dies and people are ment to think there's only one phantom. Add to that the fact that it's also a family legacy that has existed for hundred of years. Having the Phantom be anyone other than the current Kit Walker would be an insult to that.
As a Gundam fan, particularly of the Universal Century Gundams, I've been slowly converting some of my SW friends to the cause simply by showing them the respect the companies have for the property.
They're still telling Amuro Ray stories to this day. They haven't had to replace him to get with the times or w/e... Which is kinda funny considering Amuro's "death" back in 1988 is followed by the song "Beyond the Time." Amuro is eternal.
Careful. These creeps definitely have their sights on Gundam.
"The new live action Gundam movie in development promises to focus on women."
That was the first released statement.
@@matthewcoyle4131
>Netflix
Here we go again. People didn't believe when we say "keep expectations low" but they didn't listen.
@@RaveSault I think this might be AAA film not Netflix. They called it a movie.
Although Netflix has been awefully buddy buddy with Gundam and Bandai made some statements about accepting wole politics a while back.
@@matthewcoyle4131 gundam is so obscure that people mistake them for transformers. Main problem is that even if Bandai does make an original or side story involving the main character being female as people might jump to conclusions the wrong way because of current problems of western people trying to manipulate.
It's why the fate series is so beloved and obscure that even if they make the iconic male characters intl females they show interest to capture their personality and cuteness along with keeping uo with their sources on the character from mythology or from real life with research
@@alexk7880 Gundam ain't that obscure. It's about on par with Star Trek except it aired more consistently. Heck I even here a ton of people refer to any giant robot as Gundam.
The movie will be Hollywood made and the issue isn't that it will star a Female character, Gundam has always had strong female characters that have been integral to the plot. War in The Pocket and Season 1 of IBO especially come to mind. The problem is that was THE first statement that coincided with the announcement it was being made. Like that was special and important. Mark my words this is gonna be like them acting like Star Wars never had strong women when it literally opens on Princess Leia fighting the empire. (And 0079 has Sayla Mass as a main character!)
If you want to summarize American culture in one phrase: "more is better." Hence you have something good, you must make more of it. As to unique characters -- parallel universes have ruined so many stories and just rationalize a "more is better" approach to storytelling.
@Bill Bixby "what if it was my dream to write a spiderman story?"
Do you not have ideas of your own?
I still keep an old saying in mind, "All things in moderation." I still remember how they went everything-including-the-kitchen-sink with that first Crisis on Infinite Earths in the 80's. I'd be the first to argue that miniseries was totally unnecessary, and it was meant to make things simpler? Mission not accomplished! Parallel universes aren't a negative idea, but the *execution* of the idea often stinks. For instance, never ever have more than two parallel versions of a character in the same story, like "Loki". "Less is more" is another good saying to fall back on, too.
@@PhotriusPyrelus A story will only last as long as the creativity of whoever is writing it. In the hands of those who are uncreative in the Current Year? Marvel and DC just need better talent because there's no way they have it in them to write something new.
has no one thought about the spider that bit peter, did it gain anything, could it have morphed into a human? or some strange hybrid? there would be another spider-man in essence.
Instead of coming up with new characters and ideas they talk about passing on the mantle of a character who’s been around since the 60s, it’s almost like these people aren’t very creative and have no original ideas
Exactly.
Multiple people came at me (on Twitter, what a supreeze 🙄) when I came at somebody who was against Morgan Stark becoming Ironheart before Riri Williams (all cause of a ScreenRant article that was written before Riri was confirmed for 'Wakanda Forever'). I basically said, though it could happen after Riri, Morgan gaining the Ironheart mantle would be just as ok as Riri becoming, basically, Iron Man according to how people like mantle stuff.
People wouldn't leave me alone for saying that. They came at me cause they don't want a black superhero's identity to be shared, but are ok with white superheroes' identity being shared even though the idea of mantles are basically about a hero being so great that they can be spread out to even others who never met the source-hero when they adopted the mantle.
They even came at me like I said this whilst being Kevin Feige! "Let her be Rescue!", one said to me. I think that'd be fine but Morgan becoming a little sister figure to Riri and gaining her role via mantle shouldn't be rejected *JUST* because she's got too much Euro-ancestry! That's *literally* racist! They even disregarded the potential of Riri and Morgan forming a bond. As if Melina Vostokoff's and Natasha Romanoff's connection didn't do a 180° turn away from the comics.
This mantle stuff is such a mess that people's double standards and racism arises from non-Euro (white) folk!
Reminder that "IronHeart" was a name taken from a JAV parody of female Ironman.
The japanese porn industry was way ahead of them by 2 years.
@@RaveSault Yup... Major *yeesh* moment.
My man, you literally went full on Doom Slayer on all those dumbasses.
@@TrueSpider-Man Thank ya very much. Happy to do so. We gotta stay smart, not woke. 😁
"People wouldn't leave me alone for saying that. They came at me cause they don't want a black superhero's identity to be shared, but are ok with white superheroes' identity being shared "
That's because all of this is about anti-white racism and replacement. This is true whether it comes from racist blacks or their stupid white-liberal enablers who hate themselves.
It's a "mantle" until it's on the character they want it to be, then it that character's title alone. If Miles Milquetoast became the main spider-man, I doubt that "mantle" will be passed down to an Indonesian girl in a wheelchair with no less then three pride flags. It'll be his title from then on.
The worst thing was when they kept trying to retroactively make it make sense with the whole "Spider-Totem" bullshit.
Let's humor the argument for a moment (because that's all I need).
Why does this "mantle" have weight?
Yeah, exactly.
You can have a dozen spider-powered heroes or villains, but there's only one TRUE Spider-Man. He's Peter Parker, and he is defined by his personal circumstances and tragedies. Sticking another body in the costume and calling it good is a pathetic ploy on the part of non-creatives to garner more sales and brownie points from the left. But let's not forget this is Disney, who are busy cranking out jedi and mandalorians by the dozens -- explaining anything to them is the equivalent of doing card tricks for your dog -- it doesn't matter how slow you go, or how clear yout try to be, they simply lack the capacity to understand anything beyond the smell of other dog's anuses.
Not really only one true spiderman as many heroes from many series have similar powers. Speed is not owned by dc or marvel and I'd imagine spider powers are not either. If Hawkeye can be allowed to be a thing from Green Arrow then surely Dark Horse for example could have their own spider themed hero.
@@TheUnseenPath True copycats are a staple in comics. You could name a whole list of copycats that exist that aren't really original but I guess there are the benefits of being in a separate universe.
Until people start speaking with their wallets and views, this is just a moot point. Money is what drives these decisions, nothing else.
People have voted with their wallets where comics are concerned - but Disney has created a new, separate audience for the MCU that mostly knows nothing of the source material
That's where you're wrong. There are many, many ideologues and extremists nuts in charge of a great many things, and they don't give a shit about profit as much as brainwashing and spreading "The message," as well as demonizing and destroying any and all things that don't conform to "the message."
Of course, this is predicated on the idea that Spider-verse was a bad film that didn’t deserve financial success. If a movie’s good, it will probably do well, even if its central ideology clashes with the more traditional depictions of comic myth. Moviegoers aren’t going to withhold their shekels purely out of some sense of purist principle.
The one time I could have accepted this was “Mayday” Parker from the What If Spider-Girl run. You could legitimately say it was a mantle in this case because her father passed the powers directly on to her. Yeah, she was very close to her father power-wise, but at least it made sense where she was coming from in universe.
Same thing why I liked "Renew your Vows". Peter, Mj and their daughter just having fun adventures and furthering the established story of the original saga (Peter finally having his own family), none of this alternate universe bullshit.
@@batmanarkhamvengeancetm6358 Exactly! If a power is passed on, it should be done naturally, fit the character, and expand on what that character did prior. Children make sense if the power is part of their biology, while in someone like Batman’s case, one of the Robins make the most sense due to them being his direct heirs.
Same with the 2099 timeline.
@@neospiderman2165 2099 is like Batman Beyond. The future of the main story-line, and that I can accept.
@@ardanblade641 well in addition to Batman's case, Terry McGuiness is a perfectly decent example of a mantle because Terry only becomes the Batman when Bruce can no longer be it
If it was a mantle, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the characters.
The character Sheogorath in the shivering isles dlc in oblivion was an example of mantling.
Changing the race of a character is not mantling.
That dude could be an argonian for all we know!
Same goes for the Grey Fox.
Sheogorath was a more......sever version but you are right xD
The issue with Miles Morales and all of the other 'diversity hire' superheroes, is that the people who scream about wanting those things don't buy comic books. They don't have any real interest in the medium. The people that do buy comics are insulted by the rhetoric surrounding the tokenized characters.
The reason I wasn't much of a fan of Black Panther is that it's almost a parody on black culture. A wealthy, well educated prince ascending to the throne of Wakanda - is basically the "We waz kangz 'n' sheeeeit!" meme. And how an ethnocentric government with such wealth would exist in Africa, but leave the rest of the continent in abject poverty - to be exploited, is also pretty evil.
The characters in these tokenized books are just too one-dimensional. They bring nothing to the table that doesn't look even more racist than omitting them entirely. I'm surprised Miles Morales doesn't have Aunt Maya, a street hardened Puerto Rican aunt that threatens to cut people who piss her off. 🤣
Its an attack on men and an attack on the man's ideal woman. The strong female who partners up with the strong male to beat down the weak villains who have to use cheap tricks, manipulation tactics, hostages, and brainwash innocents to challenge the superheroes. Boys with weak father figures use these comic book heros to model their values into manhood. Remove the strong figure of masculinity and you breed a race of bitch ass soyboys.
he kinda did with his uncle which was a criminal. or that's what the movie showed. (i didn't care for miles so i didn't pick up his books. i'm hispanic but my spiderman is peter, no one else)
I mean, its pretty accurate in terms of the kings and qauns that sold the poor black slaves .. ya lol.. they were kings and quans alright.
What are you talking about miles doesn't have an puerto rican aunt
@@Someguy92377 if you read the actual thing I posted, you would know that I said, "I'm surprised that he DOESN'T." Meaning that I'm confident he didn't (even not being a follower of the content), but I assumed that going that stereotypical would be a bridge too far even for the leftists that make these changes.
I was on Twitter and said “Peter Parker is the real Spider-Man”. I’m being told there’s so many different Spider-Men out there. Just sounds like they want as many Spider-Men as pronouns.
Try to say ”the real and the only Spider-Man, that is and ever can be” then you’ll see the twittards rage.
@@christianbjorck816 I said it on a PlayStation post and people are telling me about “ Miguel the Spider-Man”.
@@RagingWolffe Typical. Rabid fanboys that don’t really care about the real character are the worst.
@@christianbjorck816 you must feel so woke spouting so much nonsense go create ya own comic
Not to mention the Heroes whose "Mantles" are being assumed by new guys are still around and using their own "Mantles".
I'm no expert but at the very least don't the original bearers need to step down or something before a new one can claim the position? 🤔
Exactly
I might be wrong but miles became spider man when Peter died in the comics right
@@SosaA11 His universe's Peter did die. Then his universe died. So he moved to the Main Marvel Universe where Peter was alive and still going by Spider-man.
This resulted in two Spider-men existing at the same time and place.
And instead of Marvel giving miles an original name to be tied to like the Scarlet-Spider (Ben Riley), They just left it as Spider-man.
So now there are Two people with the exact same superhero name, in the same universe, in the same city, at the same time.
This resulted in People calling Miles Morales well, Miles Morales or (less commonly) Black Spider-man as to avoid confusion.
Fun Fact: Peter Parker was called Black Spider-man in some countries when he first wore the black Symbiote suit.
@@kramfernow478 I honestly think its cool if you haven't played the Spiderman games by insomniac you should i think they incorporate two Spider-men perfectly
@@kramfernow478 I wonder do people feel the same about terry McGinnis. I think almost every character has a different version lol
I like that, comic book TOURISTS. Because thats what they are. They didn't grow up in that environment, it didn't become a part of their identity, and they have no historical and cultural connection to it. They simply arrive to enjoy the material culture and out the door the moment they see or hear something they don't agree with.
C'mon man, you can't expect people to pop an adderall every time they read a book. We gotta dumb them big words down and cheapen the story down to appeal to the widest possible audience so our sales figures go up. Who cares about the milk cow when we're making milk for us now, screw next winter
you said it... if someone liked miles morales, his books would sold out, as easy as that...
@Bill Bixby you're right, now thats not a question, manga or anime is more popular in the US, but tokenized charracters are NOT...
@Bill Bixby Nothing you said contradicts what he said. Manga is more popular precisely because of woke, tokenized shit like Miles Morales. Manga being more popular does not negate the fact that if Miles were more popular, then his books would sell better.
Carnage: its a mantle father
Venom: what?
Carnage: I am the Amazing Venom now
7:07 this is how I think they feel about most tokenized characters.
Pay attention to the reception to Sam Wilson when they made him CA....."Oh we finally have a black Captain America"...wait a minute where was all this praise when he was Falcon 🤔
I always hated the concept of the "spiderverse." I love Spider-Man, I think he's one of the most unique heroes out there. And all Marvel has done is ruin that by making more and more characters with his (nearly) exact same power set! The mantle idea is a farce.
Quote from Syndrome, "Once everyone's super no one will be".
well, i loved the movie,
@@imsmart799 And it’s ok. But I too agree that Peter Parker is Spider-Man because his circumstances and actions made him who he is. I was almost called a racist for not liking Miles. I didn’t have the right words back then to explain my dislike but young rippa understands it and put into the right words. These alter egos were never meant to be a mantle.
Let it all burn. Stopped caring a long time ago.
It's ok to like the movie, @im smart, but the fact that you didn't realize I was talking about the concept that originated in the comics is telling. The comics came out in 2014, where do you think they got the idea for the movie?
The only reason to change a character is when one dies and that is a major event in the timeline. This involves extremely good writing and storytelling.
I except death, transfer of power by the original or alternate timeline/what if's just for fun. Not forced swaps and you can tell which it is by what they write and why. if I wanted to write someone like Spiderman, it wouldn't be Spiderman though and his race would depend on where I base the story. Like Imagine making a story in Mexico and giving the 1 white guy in Mexico super powers because you want a white guy to be included in the hero stuff. Sound ridiculous. Now on top of that, what if that hero already existed as Mexican in medico and you made him white like why ROFL
Batman isn't a mantle, Robin is a mantle that leads characters down their own path, nightwing, red hood, ect.
Thank God for youngrippa speaking the truth about Spiderman and the whole mantle thing. Rippa killed the argument in less than 5 minutes. Kudos big bro! 🤝
I mean the most best idea for a mantle for Spider Man is him having a child who would most likely have powers too which makes more sense then oh this several other characters also got bit by spiders.
Japan does new properties better, but also does the whole "mantle" characters better. It's largely done in Tokusatsu series (as a necessity to keep a franchise going after they wrap up the story and the actors move on - and starting a new series each year also conveniently helps sell new toys) but is occasionally done in anime.
In Kamen Rider, the legacy of what Kamen Rider "is" is incredibly flexible. It's more about the themes, the visual design, the writing style, etc. than it is about keeping the characters the same. The only real thing that it needs to be distinctly Kamen Rider is "a bug-themed superhero whose power source is the same as the enemies but he fights for justice, also has multiple different forms that he uses with different strengths and weaknesses" (though that last one wasn't even a common thing until Kamen Rider Black RX, the last Showa-era series, featured form changes).
What they do from there is entirely free. You could have a noir detective themed Rider who gains powers from the memories of the Earth. You could have a magician Rider whose magic rings grant him elemental powers or various gimmicks like duplication, barriers, restricting chains, etc. You could have a time travelling Rider whose forms are based on old Japanese folk heroes, or a vampire Rider whose forms are based on classic movie monsters. You can have a Rider who mixes and matches the abilities of different animals, or one who adopt the powers of video game characters. And with these characters you can tell comedies, dramas, mysteries, fantasy, sci-fi - really, whatever you want.
The other big Toku series like Ultraman, Super Sentai, GARO, etc. are all similar to Kamen Rider, though they tend to not be as flexible in how far they are willing to bend from their signature styles. But they all still keep that idea of "the new series should be unique from the ones that came before."
But every version of kamen rider is a new version, story.. most don’t exist in the same universe and recognize the history.. doesn’t go to erase it
@@npcimknot958 They play very fast and loose with the continuity and they only exist in distinct universes to the extent that the Riders don't step on each other's toes. There are multiple instances of crossovers that are entirely canon within the home series of a Rider and can't be made non-canon (like Ex-Aid's Dr. Pac-Man movie which directly influences the show's plot and had a huge crossover with multiple Legend Riders).
The overall point is that they are able to have a franchise that DOES shift the main character to new ones on a regular basis and it is justified because each series is so unique from the other ones, which justifies making the title of "Kamen Rider" into a mantle. Kamen Rider and Toku isn't the only example, there's also things like Jojo's or Gundam that have their different entries actually designed to BE different. Western cape stuff - and Western franchises in general - I think are too obsessed with the iconic parts of their franchise to evolve in a similar way. They don't even switch up the power sets of the characters, which is part of why the tokenized ones are so unremarkable even IF they're given to a good writer - they're literally just the diet version of an existing character telling the same types of stories in the same types of ways.
Eh, Japan still has its issues, like how the state of Japanese anime seems to be predominantly, "what quirky thing can we come up with next?" Gems like One Punch Man and Mob Psycho 100 seem to be few and far between.
@@SirBlackReeds because they are burning out due to overwork culture that they pump so much
So then Kamen Rider doesn't need to be a bug themed hero as you gave examples of all the KR being different from eachother.
This is a topic that I'm kind of on the fence about. My very first exposure to the DC universe was via the two Justice League cartoons from the 2000's, so for a while I thought that Wally West is the Flash and John Stewart is Green Lantern. While I fully agree that nowadays it's used as an excuse for hack writers to create inferior versions of already existing heroes, if the character is well written, interesting, and actually honors the mantle of the original hero while doing something new, then I don't mind it.
The truth is a lot stuff is written A political but some people making a living telling us how other artiest are “sell outs”
That’s just your level of exposure to the characters, knowing Wally west isn’t the original flash did not make me hate him, but I only revered to the original as the standard for the character Jay Garrick, or Barry Allen.
same, it kinda shocked me when i found out that 2000s cartoon weren't the originals. I think John Stuart kinda shows you how mediocre writers are today by comparison. Like yea he and Hal were both in the army but their personalities and the constructs they make are hardly the same.
To be fair, Green lanterns are just space police so John being one isn't a problem whatsoever. Because a green lantern isn't a singular identity, its a whole galactic organization.
I know where you're coming from. The thing is, in both cases, it makes sense. There isn't just a single Green Lantern, but a whole Corps, so you can have John, Hal, and every other Lantern at the same time without it coming off as insulting or unoriginal. That's actually one of the things that makes the Lanterns interesting to me, the fact that they're these big space organizations.
As for Wally, his situation was also pretty specific at the time because he was Flash's sidekick and Barry had just died; so Wally then finds himself in a position where he must take up his mentor's mantle for the sake of the people they protected-because they need Flash, the _man,_ not _Kid_ Flash-and along the way, he had to learn to overcome his mental blocks and insecurities. Wally's arc was partly about stepping up to the plate and assuming responsibility because no one else is going to do it for you-at least the way I see it. It's about a child becoming an adult. Or I might just be biased because he's my favorite superhero.
With a character like Spider-Man, however, mantles don't make a whole lot of sense, because Peter's situation was wholly unique to him. The only way it makes sense for Spidey to pass down the legacy is if he's getting old in years and gives it to his offspring, who'd probably be genetically altered like him.
The Marvel we knew is dead and likely will never return.
Mantels are passed down, not stolen or held in tandem. You take over for a hero when they can no longer continue. This is why Dick as Batman with Damian Robin worked, while Tim Fox failed. While Bruce Wayne wears the cape no one else should.
It was Dick Grayson as Batman for that run.
Batman work cause it's just a cowl and the abilities are mostly training and money.
Although i saw Terry still as a Robin to Bruce, he's just too old to do the job so he make Terry his chaperone because nobody will take Robin beyond seriously lol
Spiderman on the other hand is an incident and his own struggle making him the web swinger that he is, when everyone had the same incident, nobody is unique anymore even if they twist it a bit with swaps.
Bitten by a radioactive spider and becoming a hero is Peter's persona alone, the rest are just products riding the coattails of the great one. It's like saying our fried chicken recipe is newly improved but at the end of the day fried chicken is still fried chicken.
@@NormanReaddis Terry is for all intents and purposes Bruce's blood son because of Cadmus wanting to create Batman 2. I feel like that elevates him a step above a robin. Although Bruce still refers to himself as Batman in his own head.
@@matthewcoyle4131
That's why Terry is still a Robin cause bruce still working on the background solving the cases. Once Terry can handle himself in the detective work without oracle Bruce, then he's a full fledged batman.
@@NormanReaddis not really just a cowl since it really goes for who is wearing it not just anyone. That is why it worked well for Dick, Terry and even Damien hell also Tim since they each was trained by Bruce. Hell put in Jason too.
The only justifiable Spider-Man “mantle” is Miguel O’Hara, because there was a very specific reason why he got his spider powers, plus Spider-Man had been dead for many years, meaning that there was no Peter Parker to replace.
Even playing Edge of Time where both characters work together, you can clearly see how different one is from the other. Sometimes it even results in them disagreeing and arguing mid-mission. It makes everything much more interesting.
I like that his means of becoming Spider-Man was waaaay different. This, I'd like to see with other legacy characters.
@@TrueSpider-Man i've always been curious about Spiderman 2099. Would love a full game set in his era like Spiderman PS4.
I gotta say, I wanna see more miguel o hara than miles morales. Much like Terry McGinnis as Futuristic Batman in Batman Beyond, Miguel O Hara is one of the coolest Spiderman in Future Sci-fi characters.
@@ArgentWolf95 Would’ve been awesome if we got a solo 2099 game that takes place before Shattered Dimensions or after Edge of Time. Well deserved for O’Hara for proving he ain’t just another version of Spider-Man.
JoJo does the whole passing the mantle the correct way. The main character simply shows they have to have such strong conviction in their actions to be able to move people. Even one of the villain's bastard child who was a vampire that wanted to rule the world and essentially took up the mantle of JoJo. Other characters even reference this by saying the main character has a certain spark about them.
He basically aimed to remove the boss of the Italian mafia so that he could change the organization for good. He did this because when he was young society was generally shit with government officials being utter corrupt. He saved a guy and turns out he was a gang leader and that guy turned his life around by being closer to a parental figure than his actual parents.
I'm not sure I would say there's a passing of the mantle in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, though I understand what you're trying to say: there's a lot of JoJos, most of them are blood-related by direct lineage, and tend to inherit a unique will and charisma that influences others.
@@jordanjenkins1671 Yeah you sort of see it in One Piece as well, with people having a D. to their name.
@@kosmosXcannon That is a great example
Don't worry rippa at this rate everyone in ny will become a spiderman with all these lab accidents LMFAO
A mantle of crime!
Didn’t one of the goonsquad commentary bros of all people side with the SJWs on the Miles Morales mantle thing lol
Wait really who would that be?
The "it's a mantle" bit, really just shows who those people are.
They think that a character or person can just be replaced by a any other one. Because for them, just like in real life, people are nothing more than blank shells to slap identities on. That's what makes up them as a person. They don't have individual personalities. They don't have unique gifts and attributes. They don't have a variety of ideas, beliefs, dreams and goals.
They're all just "black, queer, non-binary" or "poc, trans, fluffy" or whatever other combo you wanna throw together. They think that is their personalities.
That's as deep as they go. And that's why they can't connect with any characters that don't look and "identify" the exact same way they do. And just the same way they can't CREATE characters beyond that at all. They think they're being diverse and making a variety when they make up a little crew like Vitas X-men or something. Except it's just a list of people and what physically describes them, who they like to F. That's it.
MAYBE they'll throw in something about them having an attitude or being a "nerd" but that's as far as that goes. They just tell you, then it's on you to create the depth apparently.
That was a very insightful post.
FACTS!!! Thank you, Rippa.
That's why I appreciate the 2099 comics. Miguel has similar powers but they work differently. Ghost Rider is a robot. Punisher is a guy who hides his identity. And on and on.
Exactly. 2099 was created to introduce Spider-Man in a strange, different and futuristic reflection of the Marvel universe. Unlike Token-Man Morales who was solely created to race-swap Spider-Man. Yet idiots around say “mIlEs iS bEtTeR thAn 2099” HA, no he isn’t.
Thank you for emphasising that the journey and choice of a character becoming a hero or villain is unique to the individual's experience.
i'm wondering when are they gonna say Peter Parker is just a mantel after this multiverse thing gets going.
a mantle is the layer of the inside of a planet below the crust, but above the core!
not a name!
Rippa, my dude. It's so refreshing knowing that it wasn't just me. I've had to defend my chagrin for this garbage writing in western comics for YEARS. Hence why all the Japanese "nerd" culture I'm STILL invested into is still dominating the scene. They stay true to the fans expectations (if not surpassing them). Western comics and "nerd" properties have fallen into a cesspool of virtue signaling and auto-pilot satisfaction (or as a sane person says, stupidity).
@Bill Bixby dude learn your history Manga has been around since the 1950's and if you want to be more precise Astro Boy was created in 1953 as the first "Official" manga even though historians in Japan have stated could have existed since the 12th and 13th century on scrolls. The problem with western comics is they are boring, and uncreative and have been for a good 20 years because they keep writing about the same characters over and over and over.
If Batman is not a mantle how do you feel about Terry Mcginnis is that not a mantle then?
Even the toys of Miles Morales say MILES MORALES.
Why? Because even the toy companies know it isn't Spider-Man.
I think a good way to put this is it's a difference between superhero fans and comic book fans super hero fans don't see anything beyond the mask while comic book fans have spent the time to develop their own personal relationships and feelings about the complex character behind the mask's
I laughed out loud the other day when I saw a pile of Spider-woman books at the dollar store. No one wants to read about a tokenized- pregnant-crime-fighter.
It’s as you said about Thor, Eric.
That’s his ACTUAL name.
THOR.
It’s not a mantle.
It’s his f**king name.
That argument doesn’t work for spiderman
Thanks ForCannonSake for talking about this especially talking about what made the original SpiderMan special to begin with.
I really gotta see the new Spider-Man. My friends who can’t stand marcel these days said it’s good
The last hour is definitely a lot of fun, but it's just a popcorm flick at the end of the day.
It's kind of strange but at times watching Spider-verse it almost felt like an entire movie made to be a dig at Rippa lol
"Spider-man is a guy in a red and blue suit, swinging around, webslinging" this hits it dead on, I see people citing the existence of those superficial characteristics as being enough to ignore the deep and character altering changes I'm actually complaining about.
I especially feel like that's the exact attitude EFAP has toward Spider-man, which is frustrating because despite their claims to never care about the comics or other source materials, they constantly complain about Zach Snyder's Superman "not acting like Superman should", yet they love the amazing Iron Lad. Despite that Superman being more comics-accurate than MCU Spider-man.
To be fair, Snyder’s Superman is overly cynical dreck. If it’s going to be different, it had better be good. If Man of Steel wasn’t such brain-dead garbage, this might not even be an issue.
Santa Claus isn't some position people fill. Santa is who Santa is.
It's Spiderman right? That means there is only one Spiderman, not multiple. Even by saying its Spiderman multiverse means, there is only one, and other people who claim to be Spiderman, beaches whomever is in the original universe in the comic, is the only one, the others are outsiders.
These are 100% FACTS!
It's the main difference between manga/anime, and to be honest anything that isn't Western comic book culture. This includes let's say the French also. Generally other countries simply have static characters, tell stories, end stories, and moves onwards onto something else. Legacy characters is definitely a Western concept. And while it was done well for a long while prior, now it's just gotten overdone and boring. Passing on the mantle to someone new, that is unique, has worked out.
A few months back there was a Spider-Man comic that had Miles on the cover punching Ben Riley telling him " You are *NOT Spider-Man!!! ".
Correct. Someone less intelligent would have thought they were sick and gone to a hospital. Gotten taken away by the government or Oscorp and got experimented on. Would not have been aware of the implications and would never have thought to keep it a secret. Would have immediately told their parents or a friend. Would have started using their power to commit crimes.
The only thing Superman and Steel have in common is the S on their chests, which the latter only put on as an homage to the former.
It's not a mantle. It's a character.
@Bill Bixby It’s about continuity, my friend. It’s not about butchering a character into 50 trillion copies that cheapen the value, purpose and the illusion of the original.
@Bill Bixby I’ll say this, though: Spidey 2099 actually deserves to be called another Spider-Man given the fact that he is nothing like the original and is a character that can stand alone perfectly.
@Bill Bixby That’s not what cheapens it lmao. Even if they make all those titles you say, they are rarely even good nowadays.
@Bill Bixby If saying that helps you sleep at night, then more power to you. My point still stands anyway.
@Bill Bixby Awesome, have a great day.
Spiderman is Parker. How many years later we still call Miles, Miles.
Manga and comics have completely different business models. While the characters may not be mantles in American comics, the authorship is
The suit the heroes wore is an identity which has backstory exclusively related to why they tighten the fist and pull the punch
Oh yeah, another rant against tokenization. I love to hear it
MANTLE MANTLE MANTLE MANTLE, This shit is funny 🤣🤣🤣
I think the one of the best examples is Deku from My Hero Academia he makes his suit similar to All Might at first but over time he learns to do things his way.
Plus the basis of his powers is all about passing them down to someone else. From his origin it's clear how this is normal for one for all. Spider-Man for example is a singular coincidental incident. Spider powers aren't passed down another character just has to have the same thing happen to them by coincidence.
@@blues4509 didnt he have a daughter with spider powers too?
@@youtubestudiosucks978 not in mainline. However even then it makes more sense than the same exact accident happening to another kid.
@@blues4509 why limit it to a human? I want to see Spider-Cat and Spider-Hawk fighting crime or starting crime, just something else then a human gaining spider powers.
Imagine a Spider-Skrull or a Spider-Hulk, fuck it, give the mutants like the X-men spider powers too, Spider-Mystique and Spider-Collosus
@@youtubestudiosucks978 lol I know you're trolling but personally I think spider powers should begin and end with Spider-Man. It's Peter's iconography at the end of the day.
Thank You Brother
Mantle!
Different Universe!
Shut up and enjoy it!
It’s really sad how quickly my peers will just coonsume the product and demand you do the same. Even if the product is complete garbage. My Hero is flawed and pretty generic manga, but it sells like hot cakes. One Piece is fantastic and it sells like hot cakes. If you can take a single original idea or a unique twist of an idea and build on it, you can be successful. You can be successful nowadays with mid-tier ideas if you play your cards right. But I guess Marvel and DC would rather make race swapped versions of original characters rather than take a risk and make a new character. (A new character which could expand the universe and revitalize fan’s love for the comics)
its sells cause it has more heroes that aren't all knock offs then DC and Marvel combined XD
They can they just don't want the responsibility that comes with it and that they don't wanna pay their employees who created them in the first place.
DC tried and it flopped try again
When you brought up that they say no one will support a new character and you detracted by saying that they won't support them if they're dogshit I wanted to yell, THANK YOU! They're just making these excuses because they're too lazy to even make an attempt, so they sabotage themselves.
I think the only time I've liked the use of the mantle idea was in Batman Beyond, and I think it has everything to do with how they handled the story of Terry becoming Batman.
"It's a mental, mental, mental" - about the writers hired by the big two on America
*smh*
SPOT ON
Knightfall made this point, oddly enough, you can put Azrael in a bat suit, but he is still Azrael.
"MANTAL MY NIGGA MANTAL" just ignore these clowns bro and focus on your craft. I'm excited to see what you put out.
Nowadays you can be too close to another character's design, powers, persona, that you'll be charged with plagiarism, so why even 'chance' that. As a creator myself, I now embrace the philosophy of not only "thinking outside the box" but getting WAY, WAY out there. It's the ONLY way to set your work apart from others.
Like the old cliche goes, "Give them something they've never seen before."
I have a very old and easy method to tell the difference between two writers.
A hack will recycle characters and plots.
A creative will create original characters and original stories!
I kind of disagree about Green Lantern. The thousands of Green Lanterns were all extra terrestrials. Hal Jordan was the first and only human inducted into the Corps. That was what made him special. There was never meant to be more than one human in the Corps at first. As they’ve added more, it makes it less special to be a human chosen for the Corps.
True but since a small portion of the population is a GL then it is still special.
@@TheUnseenPath , it’s rather disproportionate to the rest of the species in the Corps though with humanity getting so many.
This video not only goes for comic books but every fandom out there
It is a Mantle, however when passing the touch to next successor it must never be done for diversity only based on the characters ideals and presonality.
Take All for One in My Hero Academia, it litually gets passed down. the thing is All Might (the most american hero these days over Captain America and Superman the way their being written), he chose Deku based on his pure heart and his ideals being like All Mights it was never done in terms of Diversity.
Kind of much the same thing with Jojo, but it's must has been a curse than a mantle.
@@OmegaSamurai64 Yes, either way western comics have lost their way in terms of be creative.
@@DgardsGaming From what I'm seeing and hearing, these so called "Writers" make these poor excuse of a comic to lecture their readers about their ideology and why they are right instead of actually writing an entertaining story.
Yes Anime/ Manga touch on some of these topics of politics and personal identities. But they only do it an organic way that adds to the world that makes it feel real and interesting; rather than it being the writers soapbox.
I.e One Piece, Zombieland Saga, Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, Astro boy, Full Metal Alchemist Brothers, Naruto, etc.
No, doesn't work like that. All For One is a "power/ability" that gets passed down. You don't see Deku now running around calling himself All Might after getting AFO passed to him.
Spider-Man is not a mantle. He is Peter Parker.
Woke ppl: "Its a mantle!"
Me: "So... You admit you are obsessed with the mantle of white males?"
Woke ppl: "REEEEEEEEEE!!!"
I think it has something to do with the fact that a manga comes to an end 99% of the time and if they release another series of books based on the original series manga it's either in the future where the old characters are either old, dead, or, just older. Marvel and DC have been recycling the same characters for over 60 years, so realistically how can anyone expect the standard quality to be great? It makes the most sense to me that the standard for DC and Marvel is mediocre to trash comics and the rare good books. The bold thing to do to me really would be to age up the classic characters and have them go through being older heroes then have a younger group come about and move those younger characters into the new standard that you can milk for a few decades either by having them carry the mantle of the older characters or being completely new characters without carrying the name of older characters. Long ass JoJo deals with a family of gifted folks where the hero goes through major challenges and eventually his/her story comes to an end and another arc deals with another member of the family in the future. Another reason shonen manga series are pretty good is that generally when a character dies they don't come back...again generally. Maybe DC and Marvel should start upping the stakes and kill off some characters and never bring em back...and I mean kill a few major characters also. Just my thoughts. I feel like when you're working with the same character for so long creativity runs out after a while and eventually all you'll be left with is trash. Because folks have been influenced by the same recycled characters for decades it's hard to shake em so I feel that you either do the bold thing or accept mediocrity because these classic characters have been around for way too long in print...it's time to accept that fact and bring their stories to mind-blowingly memorable ends and kick off a new generation of heroes and villains. I could say more but I've been gathering thoughts and typing this for a min so I'll end it here.
first time they did this mantle crap was with Robin
Lol yet literally since the 80's and 90's there were different types of Spidermen? Spiderman isn't the same as Batman.. Yes, if they did that to Batman that would be unoriginal. Literally the 90's animated Spiderman actually done the whole Spiderverse first.
They rather live off an IP they know that works then take the risk of starting something new and fresh
Another difference is in anime, most heroes are just everyday dudes with powers but don't go under some sort of secret identity. Goku, Ichigo, Yusuke, Luffy, Naruto, etc are just at them. So even if they die it would be someone else with their own name. Like Boruto isn't going around calling himself Naruto or Naruto 2.
You also forget, American comics have been around since WW2 and so and are still going now. The same Peter Parker we see today is supposed to be the same guy that we see during Lee and Ditko's era. Anime and manga eventually end their stories. No need for mantles, reboots or alternate universes. But Marvel and DC are meant to go for as long as they possibly can, so that's why you got all this shit.
But what can ya do? The only real alternative is to just end all of Marvel and DC's heroes. Finish their story. Permanently. I know One Piece has been around for a good while but it's not the same as something that's been around since the 40s.
I thought Spider-Man was a Everyman not a mantle
I don't think it's reaching to say that a near-earth alternate dimension could have a very similar person who also developed the Spiderman powers and identity. But you still have to ask the question, why write this character? And the answer is pretty obviously "Now we have a black one."
Someone remind Rob from Comics Explained.
One Piece is still relatively new to me. Manga like Case Closed is what has been around decades that is impressive. Shonen are more designed for longevity until they fall behind and cancelled or mangaka quits. There are franchise in Japan like Doraemon that still continue to be popular, Cryaon Shinchan that still continues to be popular, Fist of the North Star being relevant with the manga being finished long ago. Outside shonen you have Ghost in the Shell (though it's not done well with the last two additions) still around from the 80s. They are simply telling stories until they can't anymore or the creator passes it on to another. American comics simply pass it on within a company and expect it to stay the same. Worst idea ever and even as a teen, I thought of this as an issue.
What do you mean? One Piece started back in 1998. It's been around for decades as well.
They know it's not a mantle. Mantle is codeword for "brand".