Open Emitter vs. Closed Emitter Optics
Вставка
- Опубліковано 31 гру 2022
- Oh yeah, oh yeah yuns, here we go! The second you get out any subject matter that pits one thing versus another in the firearms world, people lose their ever-loving minds. So, for today we're gonna talk about open emitter, versus closed emitter optics. What's the difference and what's the big deal? Well a closed emitter optic is one that has two sheets of glass on either end with the emitter protected in the middle within an atmosphere of shielding gas. An open emitter is one that has a single sheet of glass out front with the mirror to the rear without any protection. While I know this sounds less ideal it's actually my favorite type of optic. Why? Well, that's a loaded question and I guess it has to be answered like this. I had a brutal experience as a cop that taught me that open emitter optics are best for me. Simply put, I had an incident where a closed emitter optic, an Eotech 512 got cold soaked in the trunk of my patrol vehicle and when I made entry into a warm home the optic fogged over so thoroughly that I had zero visibility. Watch the video.
Who is Tier 1 Citizen: tier1citizen.com/about
T1C slings: tier1citizen.com/shop/ols/cat...
Training Standards Downloadables: tier1citizen.com/training-drills
Optics Used:
Trijicon ACOG 4x32 ACSS: www.trijicon.com/products/det...
Trijicon ACOG 4x32 LED: www.trijicon.com/products/det...
Trijicon ACOG 1.5x16S: www.trijicon.com/products/det...
Trijicon RMR06: www.trijicon.com/products/det...
Trijicon RMR08G: www.trijicon.com/products/det...
Aimpoint Micro T-1: www.aimpoint.com/products/red...
Aimpoint Micro T-2: www.aimpoint.com/products/red...
Lights Used:
INFORCE WML
INFORCE APL
INFORCE WILD2
INFORCE TFX
Surefire X300 U/B
Streamlight Protac 1-L
Shooting Chronograph:
Pact Club Timer III
Holsters:
Phillip McGuire: T1C Holster
Minuteman Defense: Gat Caddy
T.REX Arms: Sidecar
Bravo Concealment: Torsion
Cameras: SONY HDR-AS15
Targets:
www.challengetargets.com/SFNT...
Partial Human Silhouette - Handgun Rated: www.challengetargets.com/prod...
Partial Human Silhouette - Rifle Rated: www.challengetargets.com/prod...
Full Human Silhouette - Rifle Rated: www.challengetargets.com/prod...
IPSC A Zone - Rifle Rated: www.challengetargets.com/prod...
AR500 6" Diameter Pistol Target: www.challengetargets.com/prod...
Target Bases:
DIY Stands: • DIY: Reactive Steel Ta...
Static Stand - Heavy Duty: www.challengetargets.com/prod...
#everydaycarry #leadonsteel #fasttrigger #magpul #pewpew #tacticaltraining #rifles #sbr #shortbarreledrifle #airsoft #prepping #milsim #paintball #everygunlawisaninfringement
Abner Miranda, Not Airsoft, Firearms Training, T1C, Tier 1 Citizen, Tier 1 Citizen Training, Bravo Concealment DOS Torsion, GS17, Glock 19, Glock 17, CQC, CQB, CQC, Close Quarters Combat, Close Quarters Battle, Shooting Steel, Steel Targets
We had a two day red dot training course over the last couple days. In the decision process, many people highly suggested the closed emitters because of the possibility of the open emitters being obstructed by rain and/or dirt. We had a good, steady rain yesterday and it was about 45-50 degrees. No one with the open emitters had any problems, and every......single.....closed emitter optic was nearly completely obscured with condensation inside the optic (fog and water spots inside the lenses). We thought maybe it was a bad run of Acros, but they came from different stores and the Holosuns had the same problem. It was definitely eye opening to see that not only would it take quite a bit of junk to block an open emitter, but the closed emitters didn't perform in mildly adverse conditions.
Wow! Im struggling with the open/closed decision right now and leaning toward the closed because of the potentiality of an obstructed emitter. I guess the marketing guys left out the inside condensation effect. Thanks for sharing. And back to video, good sight and backup irons.
@@stevecox9874 We have a bunch of guys who have been running red dots for about a year now. No complaints or instances at all about obstructed open emitters. The only issue we've seen has been the condensation in the closed emitters. And it's a catastrophic one. It's tough to see your backup sights when you can't see through the optic at all. I'd never take a closed emitter on duty or into a fight after seeing that.
@@honkerh8r564 Great info! Much appreciated!
I don't understand this. If a simple 100 Dollar watch can be waterproofed and not fogging up. Why is it so complicated to make the red dot totally waterproof/dustproof etc?
People make a big deal about “rain on the emitter” or “mud on your emitter” or “snow in your emitter” and the bottom line is, they are just repeating something they heard online from some wannabe operator jerking off to soldier of fortune magazine. For your average, or even above average self defense shooter/trainer, you are going to have little or no issue with your emitter being packed with crap to the point it’s not working. I’ve been shooting my whole life and I have yet to drop my gun in the mud. If you are dropping your gun in the water, mud or snow then you have bigger problems than an open emitter. You have to learn how to freaking hold on to your damn gun.
This was the one video that truly solidified my decision making process to know that open emitter red dot is the correct choice for most shooters. Plain and simple! Thank you
Glad I could help
I've had an ACRO P1 for some time now, and I absolutely love it!
Yeah I’ve ran an RMR for years and never had an issue with “lint, dust, whatever” that people claim will fill up your rmr and it won’t work. One, If you pms your edc properly you won’t have any issues. I swap out all my optics batteries on my birthday and have never had one fail prematurely and I carry 24/7 in my house and out. I don’t get home and take my gun out and set it down or in the safe. If any lint happened to get into it than you can just blow/wipe it out, but I’ve never had the emitter blocked. Doesn’t mean it can’t be. I’ve shot in the rain and snow and never had my optic blocked or go down. I didn’t drop my gun in the snow or pack snow into it, like some channels have done in a vain attempt at making closed emitter red dots seem better than opened. For the average person just carrying concealed the decision of open or closed is just a preference thing and I wouldn’t say one’s better than the other. The decision can also be influenced by where you live and the weather there, but even then, an open emitter would run just fine. If a rain drop fell into the emitter than your next shot will remove it. To each their own. People will argue this just like they do .45 & 9mm lol
Hope y’all had a great holiday and have a better year than last!
God bless~
Great point at the end about owning the rounds you send out. Like the perspective and great shooting, too!
As I've been saying: More important than hitting your target is NOT hitting something you're NOT shooting at! : )
Good point.
Love your thought process on this topic, it's very helpful
I'm glad it's been beneficial to you. Thank you for your kind words.
LWR. I enjoy watching Abner, he's a wealth of knowledge and explains things so simple. I also watch your channel as well as chukes. I'm also from AK.
I have been searching so hard, reading and watching videos about open vs closed emitter. I feel so fortunate to have found this video. I did not know this info about closed emitters. This has helped me decide on which way to go. I have always shot iron sights, I am a good shot with irons. But I am new to red dots. This has helped me in my direction. Now to which brand lol. Thanks again.
I am glad that this video has helped you choose your optic. My advice on which brand is very simple, the list for open emitter optics worthy of your time is very short - Trijicon. That's the list, everything else is Chinesium garbage that will fail you. The price points are great but the optics quality is not. The warranty that the bargain optics offer is great but they will fail you. Watch this video please: ua-cam.com/users/videoMhma_c1nkS4/
@@Tier1Citizen Thank you Sir. I will stick to Trijicon. That was easy! Lol. Does this include the Trijicon SRO? I am liking the window size on this one. I am going to watch the video now as well as subscribe.
Yes, the SRO is good too.
@@Tier1Citizen Thank u Sir!!!!
After seeing reports of closed emitter rds, even Acro P2s, fogging inside so you can't even wipe it off, I decided I'd rather have an open emitter I can always clean off and use the irons through even if the emitter could get blocked vs a totally opaque optic with no way to clear it and see the irons through it. With no option to mount a rds on a pistol that allows for immediate removal, making sure you can keep it clear trumps maybe having to use the irons because a rain drop managed to hit it just right imo.
It's amazing how people always run to the latest and greatest without thinking things through. I too choose the old school RMR type optics. They just work.
I got the dual illuminator RMR 9 MOA over a year ago on a trade and l put it on my duty Glock 17 MOS, l have no issues and during the day l put electrical tape like l did my ACOG back in my military days, l just bought another RMR 1 MOA during a killer deal that Primary Arms was having, to be honest is all about shooter preference. I have a feeling this is going to be another argument between open emitter vs closed emitter, single point sling vs two point sling, 45 cal vs 9mm, high port vs low port, to be honest professionals don't care they get the job done with the tools they have, great video man.
There comes a point when we all take the step and embrace the tech. Some are faster some take longer. But we all do it. Striker fired guns were laughed at in the beginning. Look at it now.
Truth! Well said.
Still laughing at the striker-fired pistols, but I DID just manage to mount a Viridian RFX 35 on my 30 year-old S&W 5926, no thanks to the manufacturer of the dovetail mount (had to re-locate the set screw hole, and the one they had slightly off-center interfered with where mine NEEDED to be). PLUS, I modified a set of Hogue rubber grips for the 5906, etc., to fit with the decocking components on the 5926, which involved changes on BOTH halves of the grips : )
GAME-CHANGERS, after thirty years of same-old...
I just switched out my rmr for a Acro p2. Love my rmr, but not having to unmount the optic from the side to change battery is a big fit for me. My Acro is on my staccato which is also my duty gun
Excellent work brother, very good. World class instruction once again. I have many "discussions" with tactical ninjas who suffer from Tactical epilepsy, on how important it is to have back up iron sights. There are too many people claiming that they are instructors in red dot, but run a sporting set up and have never qualified as a red dot instructor.
Right on brother thanks for the content
Yeah man!
The range dancing super trooper stuff behind the barrel.....
Chefs kiss.
If the emmitter gets clogged up by rain or water, you probably wont be able to see your hard sights anyways? Good to practice framing the target between the cat ears for that situation. or doing the sage dynamics white paint line on top
Was wondering if you would share your build that you did for your daughters handgun? Would be interested in the parts your chose, and your experience/confidence in the performance of the gun for such an important role.
I run a open emitter on my 48MOS Holoson 407K. If I decide to add one to my 19 I am looking at the new SCS from Holoson.
My Agency friends run Trijicon RMRs on both duty and off duty guns.
I got my first RDS last May, a Trijicon RMR Tritium/Fiberopitc model just like yours. I'm writing because you are the only person on UA-cam to like the FiberOptic model and thus agree with my conclusion. I was looking for open emitter but considered the matching Closed Emitters available too. I only wanted strong metal housings and had some retical desires and required long battery life. I was mostly settled on Trijicon and Holosun units. After doing all I could to stomach the idea of a battery I thought worked a week a go, had suddenly gone too dead to emit the retical at all. Even a 50,000 hour battery life is based on a certain brightness and duty cycle of usage. If you move all day long, the beam stays on, even "Shake to Wake" units like Holosun. Keen smarty pants'es will note that the Tritium will "wear out". Yes but it's proven and chenically determinably still working at it's "half-life", meaning duller but still working when it gets to the point that you either get it repaired by Trijicon or buy another. I'll probably do both, to avoid the re-Tritum vialing delay. but NEVER will I pick up this unit and it NOT be lit. Not once. Ever. That I can believe in and trust. Batteries can be to old on shelf life or have contacts that vibrate loose. Tritium WILL glow X-long, periood. No doubts, no surprises, BTW, it is bright enough for me so I don't get the compalints but more importantly, it will never be turned down to dim by a mistake button press, or even be drawn and be too bright, or God forbid be Off by mistake. Everybody I could find in the fiew reviews of the Tritium unit, hated it and wanted a less reliable battery unit. Not that they're not good but I watched everything I could in 4 months that I could find. Never found a fan of the Tritium. I bought it anyway, as it fit what I believe and valued. Reliable function above all and not a fun tech toy to play with.
"...or ever be drawn and be too bright."
He literally has electrical tape over his fiber optic because the bloom is too intense 🤣
Hi Abner, would you consider doing a video on how well the fiber optic version of the RMR works in the dark or low light? I browsed youtube and there aren't very many good videos that talk about this aspect of the fiber optic RMR. Most people who run RMRs run the battery versions but the version you have definitely have the benefit of not needing battery replacement, etc.
Yes I will, I need to do this for you guys.
Thank you
You're welcome
Hey Abner,
1. Thank you for recommending BCM MCMR Rail covers... they are perfect!
2. I'm curious what your opinion of the Holosun SCS is? If you haven't tried it fine, but what do you think of the concept?
God bless
I only use optics from Aimpoint and Trijicon.
I have been running RMR's on Glocks for the last 12 years. The RMR is a great sight but, they do fog and rain can get in them causing issues. The rain is less of an issue if you carry concealed. Battery has not been an issue, all of mine have batteries, especially with the new models that have more connection points. I will be using a Holosun EPS carry on my SIG 365 X-Macro and im eager to see how it compares to the RMR.
Did you end up getting the EPS? Any update after 9 months?
@@samueldavidvisuals2595 I did get and EPS on on my Macro and have been carrying it as my edc. I have almost 1000 rounds through the pistol with the EPS and have zero complaints so far.
I found a Holosun 407CO which is the 8 moa ring at Cleve shooting sports back in the early spring for under $200, got it mostly because of the negative reviews about the dual illum rmr and I couldn’t find one to see for myself. I wanted a dual illum for the exact reason you mentioned, no batteries needed is huge and in hindsight the acog is still chugging along after all these years. What color & reticle size would you recommend for dual illum?
I like the amber one in 7 moa. It works really well. Look at the other video I release this morning. I talk a bit about my experience with the optic.
Question? I've heard "point-source emitter" from Sig Sauer regarding their Romeo1 Pro. I'm not sure wtf that means lol.
Not a clue man.
I currently run a 2moa dot and love it, but I really like this RMR with fiber optic for all the reasons that you’ve stated. With a 7moa dot what distance would you say is too far to be able to reliably make a low percentage shot?
Also, with the amber color of the dot do you find it harder to pick up then a red dot? Looking at the color of the grass at your range it seems like it might be easy to lose the dot.
Thank you
I say once you get out about 50 yards things start to get interesting. But think about that, 50 yards is a ridiculously long self defense shot, no matter what you're shooting. You won't have any difficulty picking up the amber color against much of anything. It stands out quite starkly.
@@Tier1Citizen Thank you! I would plan on carrying it mostly for work and 50 yards is the longest possible shot I would ever have to take due to the environment.
Many people think 7 yards and in is all you really need to train for, but the only shooting we have experienced here was a guy on a bicycle riding away and shooting at the guards at the gate from about 20-30 yards, and began reloading at about 40 yards(so still a threat)
Fortunately he couldn’t get his pistol reloaded and ride his bike, and chose to ride away.
I've wanted a Trijicon Dual Illuminated RMR for a long time, but their usability at night has always been my only hang up. Are there any ways to mitigate the dot wash-out in low light when using WML? Thanks!
Not really, that is probably the only hangup about them.
Following the situation you experienced , would it be a farfetched idea to run an open emitter red dot- leupold deltapoint pro , on my AR carbine as my main optic ?
I run an open emitter on my rifles so no.
I don't know if you're still replying, but does the open emitter still hold true for pistols carried outside the waistband, all year long? I'm eventually getting an optics ready M&P full-size for duty carry in security, and that is my main concern. I live in a place that does get snow every year, so that's a consideration.
I don't know how to answer that one for you since I always carry concealed.
Hi, quick question. Which mag well does your daughters SCT have? I recently build one as my EDC, been looking at mag well to plug the hole.
I don't recall the make of it, I think it might have been an Aim Surplus in house brand. I don't see it on their site anymore.
Is that a Brownells slide? If so g19 or g17 size?
For a "carry" gun,the optic should be relatively acclimated to one's body.Should mitigate the cold to hot fog,not sure about the hot to cold side though...
You only get condensation when you take a cold object into a warm environment, if that's what you're asking. PRO-TIP: When you bring a very cold laptop (for example) into a warm building, give it a couple of hours to acclimate before turning it on. In the interim, moisture can condense on the circuit boards, but will eventually re-evaporate.
Love red dots on carbines, rifles, and shotguns. But when I put on on a Pistol, I can't find the dot. And once I do, I loose it after the first shot.
I have tried all the techniques, all the advice from experienced shooters, all the sight alignment first the find the dot stuff..none of it works for me.
I prefer green on green illuminated front sight. Lots of options out there. And a blacked out rear sight.
I used to be a big fan of the XS sight system. I really liked the small dot more than the big dot.
But this green on green front sight on black rear sight is working great for me.
re: the "Red Dots"... are you using a large window or small window unit? I just ordered my first, a Viridian RFX 35, which looks like a poor-man's SRO. Hoping the larger window makes it easier to find the dot. I CANNOT efficiently align iron sights any more, so I really have no other choice than a "Red Dot" for quick, accurate shots at distance.
Something else that might help is a unit that features a combo-reticle, for example, a 3 MOA dot surrounded by a 60 MOA circle. Hard to believe that you wouldn't be able to spot the 60 MOA circle even when alignment is WAY off, which in turn would direct you to the 3 MOA dot.
@@lordofthewoods
When I was experimenting with possibly running a red dot. I used a Glock 19 MOS and installed a SigntMark Micro Shot. Which is about the same size as a Delta point from Leupold.
I tried my damnedest to get used to it. But I just couldn't. I practiced drawing from the holster and dry firing, which was fine. But once I would go to the range and live fire, I would draw, aquire the red dot, fire, and after recoil, I would have to swim the optic around to find the dot again.
I worked at it for over a year. Got very very frustrated. I even forced myself to take a training class which focused on sight picture and precision shooting but at speed. It was infuriating.
I just use irons.......
@@Just_Chuck_It But I CAN'T SEE irons any more (got welding burns over 20 years ago, which killed my eagle vision : )
If I try to use irons, I'm having the same difficulty you have with the Red Dot, except that I have to swim my HEAD around to try to get an average focus between the target and my irons with my progressive glasses... even then, "average" means that both the target AND my sights are "equally blurry" : )
Not a problem if I have a few seconds to get a bead on the target, but not good when speed is necessary.
And note that I've taken to practicing @ 25 feet or less without looking at the pistol AT ALL, so I only "need" (or at least working on only needing) the irons for longer distances.
I've looked through some pistol-mounted Red Dots at dealers, and it appears that I can look PAST the pistol to the target, just as I do at 25' or less now with the irons, yet still have a good visual on the dot... which doesn't even make sense, but I'm fixin' to put it to the test in about a week.
And on the same pistol I've been carrying for over thirty years, an S&W 5926 (nearly FORTY years, if you count the 459 and 5904 I had prior), for which I just managed to modify some Hogue rubber 5906 grips to fit TODAY (came out NICE-LOOKING, but test-firing after I finish here). Found out I can't even get the factory grip (one-piece wrap-around) from S&W any more... and everyone else is sold out...so I got worried. I was going to try stippling or sandblasting one (they're just hard plastic w/ checkering), but only if I had a spare in hand. Found the Hogue, but they don't make a 5926 version, so...
So, if the Red Dot works out, it'll be just like I bought a NEW PISTOL!
I'm using a standard sized RMR.
They make green dots, Holosun 508t, 509t, 507k, DPP are all great(prefer red tho). I’ve been running dots on rifles & pistols since I was a kid in the 90s shooting airsoft guns into adulthood for work… idk how y’all like trying to align those damn iron posts
What is the carry ammo you use? I'm not familiar with many 115gr HP self defense rounds.
PRV makes really good 115 Grain JHP. Velocity is the 9mm's greatest asset.
I love the 5 year old face analogy xD
Sad but true.
I know this is off the subject, but why were you making entry on a suicidal person who made statements about killing himself and the police? Unless he had a hostage or an innocent and they were in imminent danger, there is no reason to force a confrontation.
Open emitter optics are great until you get water, snow, sand etc on them and you have to shake them off.
Batteries are a non issue unless you for some reason can't maintain a decent service battery swap once a year.
So u disagree with his choice of open over closed?
You mention baby soap, is that shampoo? How does that compare with Catcrap or anti-fog to keep optic "clean" and lint free?
Yes baby shampoo. The cheap stuff works just fine. I've never used anything but that so I can't compare it to any of the professional products out there. It stays on for years. It causes a haze but you're not really looking through the optic so much as you are looking at the target and superimposing the dot there.
How cold we talking? Should I consider cold a factor living In west Texas?
Anything below about 40° can cause this problem.
So your telling me that if your open emmitter optic is ice cold that it won't fog up when you enter a warm environment like you say happens to a closed emmitter optic ?
Nope, it's less likely to happen because it's a single sheet of glass that's less prone to cold soaking like the inside environment of a closed emitter optic.
@Tier 1 Citizen oh ok, so it can still happen but not as likely.
I know the Acro P2 is designed to never fog
If using for concealed carry wouldn’t the weapon being concealed under clothing keep somewhat warm
Yes, however, not everyone wears their sidearm concealed. There are cops who now use optics on their handguns.
Does anyone know someone (directly) who has been in an actual gunfight with an optic sighted pistol, especially at close range? Or oneself been there? My only times were overseas with a M4 so I can’t speak directly; Even when I was LE, on SWAT etc.
My question (ok, questions, got long winded) for those is, how good really is the optic on a handgun when a near-peer is actively engaging you. Yeah you’re shooting and moving etc.
I’ve found during force-on-force using simunition with no other protection than a face mask, that in dynamic, full violence of action encounters, sights were not even used. This is when having a very natural pointing/ergonomic pistol comes in handy for near startled response type engagements, and possibly why 1911s had minuscule sights - on a fighting pistol, not bullseye pistol (until later, when better sights evolved).
Heck, even overseas, we saw too many blowing rounds with rifles at distant targets and not use those sights, lol… CQB was simply point and shoot or in my case, cant (M4 inwards ~45 degrees and point and shoot).
Having said all that, I tried a 509t on my 10mm XTEN and found that within 20-30 yds., I was faster with irons than the dot. It’s easier for me to track the front sight during the recoil cycle than trying to maintain the dot. Maybe I simply need to try it more, I don’t know. When I shoot w my local 2A advocates, I out shoot all but one or two, even those using a optic sighted 9mm. Now, when we step out a ways, I lag behind.
When I see folks mag dumping on to a steel target at 5-7 yds using an optic, do they really see the dot, or simply bracketing the optic window on the plate and going to town?
There have been several bodycams of LEOS using RDS.
Isn't that Trijicon actually tritium BOOSTED by fiber-optic?
EDIT: OK, I see you finally mentioned the tritium element : )
Fiber only optics are not great in low light scenarios. Your better off running high viz irons at that point if you just won't run a battery powered optic.
Sir, Miranda, Sir! :D
Your way of thinking seems to usually align with mine, surprisingly so.
Including your choice of open emitter. I run Holosun 510C, and LOVE IT.
Closed emitter sucks imo, I did have a cheaper optic fog up, and moisture never left the optic, so I returned it.
Also, the thing you did NOT talk about is the glare on closed emitter. All of those optics are reflective coated, and closed emitter will have reflection from 2 pieces of glass, and those reflective coatings are almost always....RED! And your red dot is ....*suspense music*....red.
Anyway, closed emitter sucks, but if you love it, do you. I hate them.