January 2023 SSBM Tier List
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- Опубліковано 12 січ 2023
- My up-to-date tier list for the new year! The recent success of a newly-viable solo main calls for slight changes to my previous tier list.
1.03 is the game version for this tier list, which most notably means that dash out of crouch and SDI are fixed.
b0xx.com
/ ssbmhax
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/ discord - Ігри
bold decision to put all the characters in D tier, claiming that all players are "bad"
It's crazy how far Peach has fallen without Armada as a rep. That man made Peach-Fox match-up look unwinnable for Fox.
Keep in mind that Armada's dominance was basically pre, or during the beginning of the UCF implementation.
She is significantly worse once you give everyone good shield drops and dashbacks, which were totally controller dependent. If you watch the old Armada sets, you'll notice how helpless his opponent were on platforms and how often they got caught by tech chase because dashback was basically a high risk/reward choice.
The metagame at that time favored Peach a lot. Keep in mind that post ucf, Armada was more of a Fox main with a Peach secondary.
Trif is without a doubt as good as Aramda back then, but the meta has advanced a lot and the current top players (Mango, Zain, Ibdw, Hbox and Amsa) all have a character that excels at playing around shield and trade heavy characters.
Turns out Yoshi definitely has a better defensive game than Peach when played as efficiently as Amsa.
Peach was a noob killer.
@@MrFlejon Armada was still a Peach main even at the end of his career, mostly using Fox for HungryBox and only sparingly for other match-ups. That said, you could still argue that people weren't all accustomed to UCF at that point in time, being about a year old when Armada retired. I wouldn't say Trif is as good as him, not at all, but the meta has evolved thanks to UCF, I agree.
@@lloydaran I remember back in 2014, players that could shield drop were thought to be some kind of wizards. It was not meta to shield drop, it was seen as an oddity! I don't exactly know if peach is worse with ucf or if other top tiers are better with ucf but still, she has fallen back in the ranks a lot because of it. It is not because of under-representation of the character but how much the meta has changed!
@@MrFlejon Armada was THE Peach player, as much as HungryBox was THE Jigglypuff player (aside from early Mang0). You could say that they elevated the characters to heights no one would've placed them. I think that Peach's fall is a mix of both factors: the most proficient specialist has retired, while the meta changed unfavourably for her. Yes, there are Trif and Llod (I can't name other top Peach players), but let's be honest, Armada was on a different level, not in terms of just technical prowess, but mentality, neutral, adaptation, gameplans, that is, the other half of what makes a player sit among the best.
@@MrFlejon Armada was never a fox main with a peach secondary. Even during the time when he played fox more often than he did before, he still played peach at least 70% of the time.
I agree with these twelve characters being the only ones on the tier list, that said, Franz makes me want to dream. I think Doc is a natural 13th if there were ever going to be one. If someone as dedicated as Amsa pushes for a character, I think there are still many possibilities.
Link, Doc, and DK would probably be the "natural" D tier on this list. With a dedicated maniac, they could maybe pull an Amsa.
Hax once believed the 13th best character "definitively is Game and Watch". He sent that as a facebook gift to Scar, apparently.
@@Qril yeah, Franz, Aklo, and Ringler are cool.
@@jeffpalaganas7404 I don't think he would agree still
I mean "objectively" I could go with that; Nair is busted lol
Mekk wants to make it happen with ganon now. I think he's crazy but I would love to be proven wrong
Ganon is just fat sheik. I think he has this weird thing of all his matchups are easy if you’re better but crushing if you’re worse - if a God played a major where no other gods attended I think he could probably do really well as Ganon
@@exigency2231 you're right but the whole logic of tier lists is that the players are supposed to be "equally skilled"
@@DoctorSoctopus i suppose, but then again the people who win majors are usually better than their opponents. i think ganon by nature exacerbates skill gaps, right, so if the best player in the world picked up ganon and solomained, they would be able to win a major. the tiering here was based on how well a character can let the player succeed, and I think Ganon has the tools to do that.
the problem comes when you're up against players of comparable skill, of course, and suddenly ganon is fat sheik. nowadays in 2022 i don't think it could happen, but if 2007 m2k picked ganon, practiced for a bit, he would have won a tournament completely legit with ganon. I don't think characters that are " better" than ganon have that factor of broadening the severity of skillgap.
im not a top player, just a ganon secondary enjoyer though so i'm probably wrong
@@exigency2231 I think the "If a player really committed to the character it would have better results" is kinda wrong. It happened with Amsa's yoshi because we all were aware that Yoshi had hidden potential with his unique techniques. No other mid tier has "hidden potential". Ganon just doesn't have the tool to win. The frame data isn't in his favor. The problem with the mid tiers is they quite literally are limited compared to the characters above in the tier list.
Without his double jump armor, and his unique shield, Yoshi would be pretty crap. Comparable to Ness in fact.
Pikachu is a good example of a mid tier character that has surprisingly good frame data, and turned out to kinda work. He has good hurtboxes, good speed, amazing out of shield (uair), good chaingrabs and amazing recovery and ledge game.
Ganon has none of this. Doc has the upb out of shield thing, but that's about it.
The game is almost "solved"
As a Ganon main of 15 years, he's actually crazy for thinking that is possible.
"Fox at Number 1 is a lock, for the rest of eternity." Never has such a close-minded statement been so completely correct and incontestable.
Far into the distant future:
The year is 20eggseggs. Yoshi has finally reached the S-Tier in a Hax tier list video beside Fox and Falco (the only other two viable characters).
Everyone grinds 30 hours a day. Far gone are the years of gaining an advantage via superior controller motherboards like Goomwaves. The new meta is who has gotten the best reconstructive hand surgery. Closer and closer are we getting to the idea that sets are essentially only won by games of rock paper scissors.
Leffen still complains to this day, however, the content of his ramblings has changed. His main gripe is about the RPS meta being rock, claiming that "I would've won of it weren't for unbalanced mechanics!"
Melee isn't even played on Slippi or in-person anymore. President Elon Musk 3000 has successfully installed Melee into every person's brain on the planet and we are now able to play through the nation-wide free wireless internet. Every time we play melee, our dopamine receptors are forcibly fired. This was Elon 3000's secret plan to advance the Melee meta to what it is today. 9/10 people are addicted to Melee. We don't need to eat or sleep anymore with contemporary scientific breakthroughs & there's nothing else to do besides play Melee.
One's status in society is solely based on rank in Melee. The dark, decrepit alleyways are filled with bronze Falcon, Marth, and Sheik players, sickly and pale. Silver through high diamond is filled with Jigglypuffs. The reason for this is because many Fox and Falco players just quit the match because they don't want to waste their time playing against that low-tier. The decadent and ornate homes across the way are assigned to each of the top 200 players.
199 of those 200 players are spacies. Foxes and Falcos playing to speedy TAS levels of perfection. The one and only character that isn't an intergalatic animal is aMSa's iconic red Yoshi. For this reason alone, Hax had no choice but to include aMSa and his crimson dino in the upper echelon; alongside the Corneria Boys.
Good ol rock. Nothing beats that!
That sounds wonderful
Beware of the year 20NineNine, when Game&Watch players will begin to master melee's RNG
Last time solo Yoshi won a major was 2022.
Last time solo Sheik won a major was 2004.
Plup would have won a major by now if he had really wanted to commit to it, such a lazy narrative. You're off your rocker if you think yoshi has a better matchup spread than sheik at top level. Sheik's limit is even higher if you want to take into account Hax's dbooc fix, as she prolly can go close to even with fox. Cmon now.
I think sheik has had excellent secondary results all throughout melees lifespan and now we're finally seeing a proper sheik main make it to grands on multiple occasions. We will see soon in genesis if Jmook can break his curses with hbox
@@TheAmazingMrSloop I don’t think they were serious lol
@@TheAmazingMrSloop Plup isn't solo Sheik.
@@dahuterschuter Hey man, thanks for the comment! If you read what I said, I was implying that he was and is certainly good enough to have won a solo sheik major since he picked up fox. But he doesn't want to play sheik puff so he doesn't play it. My statement was that if he had played solo sheik since 2017, he would have one by now. I'm sure most agree.
it's crazy how far Yoshi has come, thank you based aMSa
Always love seeing the updates as your thoughts change, keep em coming!
I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.
My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland.
Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.
If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B).
Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then.
Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.
The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.
I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk.
Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf.
Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!
I can't tell if this is a copy pasta or not.
The issue is that he's too slow. Most characters just outrun him and can whiff punish almost everything he does pretty easily, or they can just outright camp him or rush him down.
He's definitely not a bad character he's just a worse Captain Falcon in every way besides a few. There have been successful Ganon players in the past but if you watch even the best of his players against any of the top 5 characters you'll start to see why he's not that great at the top level.
@@Himadpeoples its from the old roy copy pasta where the dudes were talkin bout flame blade
I think the issue with Ganondorf is that there aren't enough full masters of Ganondorf going to tournaments.
"The Punch"
Though this was the first tier list, SmashBoards was rife with discussion about tiers long before the Melee Back Room released its "MBR Tier Averages". The term "F/F/S" (short for "Falco, Fox and Sheik") was popular as a quick reference to Melee's top tier. Members on Smashboards, perhaps in backlash against novice sentiment towards Roy and Link, generally disdained those characters, and generally favored the game's fastest characters.
Members on Smashboards largely contested this tier list's placement of Mewtwo, which they felt to be too low. Many Smashboarders considered Mewtwo a low- or even middle-tier character and were bothered that it, despite its great recovery and powerful throws, was placed at the bottom of the tier list, where most people believed Bowser or Pichu belonged.
Fox For Sex
mario was fucking top 5 wtf
Feel like doc could squeeze in but only time will tell
I predict that Doc will crack the C tier on Hax's next tier list, possibly also DK depending on how Ringler and the other top DKs do in 2023
idk what DK's MU spread is like but to me guys like ringler just showcase the small chance of winning that those characters have and it doesnt necessarily mean that the character being used is underrated. i see it more like Ringler is the "20" in an 80-20 MU
@@-_-shakezula DK actually has an amazing punish game, he can zero to death spacies, falcon, marth and sheik. All he needs are a few grabs to win a game
Can't wait to see Mekk bust out the Ganon in tournament.
@@mitchschrader1647 if you think dk vs fox is anywhere near even you’re out of your mind.
@@Johndavidson4 Did I say it was near even? I just said DK can kill fox off a grab
Me: (nowhere near even mid level competitive play) "hmmm yes, I agree with the melee man. mmmhmm. I concur."
Feel very similar, and loved the explanation for why. I think you hit the nail on the head, especially for those characters that are borderline. I am holding out for Doc though. I have a soft spot for him but also I just can't look at Luigi and say he's a better character or has more potential than Doc.
i'd be curious to hear your reasoning as to why doc specifically is in a distinctly lower tier than luigi
For 3 of Hax's tier lists now, I've been thinking "This seems close, but Yoshi > Puff for sure.", and for 3 tier lists, I've been watching Yoshi go up. I guess aMSa hasn't pulled off enough sick parries and stored power shields yet, then Hax will agree with my sick theory.
For proof, go watch aMSa stall out Hbox on Dream Land at BH10. The only winning stage Puff has is FD, and Yoshi clearly has better S tier match ups. Also, I don't think Yoshi > Peach is controversial, llod has been saying it for a long time.
Yoshi should be in S tier.
so hype seeing this in recommended i checked my sound settings BEFORE starting it
Fantastic video as always. I did want to ask if you ever plan on making a theoretical TAS-tier list? I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on all the characters at theoretical level and if Yoshi winds up being top 2 or top 1 in the game. Plus it would be a very fun video for content, I don't think anyone has ever discussed it on UA-cam at all.
TAS tier list is difficult to discuss, it gets very messy and slippery slopey.
Because in an ideal setting, they would never interact and all matches would lead to time out.
There's not really any room for *any* character to expose themselves to risk in a TAS setting. It sounds interesting, but doesn't pass scrutiny :(
We could just solve this with a computer, but my money is on Fox/Falco tied for first and then everybody else tied (with the possible exception of Puff at 3).
If we assume perfect knowledge of the game state and perfect control of the character and NO predictions, the existence of frame 1 shields mean that having any startup on any attack means the opponent can just powershield on reaction. And then you probably get hit for that. Therefore, the only options capable of landing a hit are those that cannot be reacted to: frame 1 moves. So it's conceivable that these characters could land the free hit. The problem is with TAS DI making any hit, let alone a low percent one, likely unsafe. Shine avoids this thanks to jump canceling. I'm really not sure how well TAS DI works against Rest, but if all TAS characters can deal more damage to Puff after a Rest then she doesn't have an edge (I'm not going to discuss the other frame 1 options because they aren't better). After a percent lead is established the optimal strategy is to run away with your least committal options, which may include perfect ledge stalls (note: I think TAS response to perfect ledge stalls would be very interesting and needs development as it is relevant).
Bottom line: perfect Fox/Falco play would be them walking forwards and shining you, then running away. They may or may not attempt to shine you again. I'm not sure there is any reaction-based counterplay to this, and even if we allow shield as a defensive mixup against frame 1 options I'm not sure it spares anyone.
Great tier list thanks hax
Yoshi is also the only character who can timeout puff
That's an interesting thing to think about.
Dont let franz see this comment
I agree with this overall, except I think Peach could rise higher, and I think that the meta for certain relatively unexplored characters has potential to change in a way similar to that of Amsa's Yoshi.
What do you think about characters like Dr. Mario and DK? Franz has decent success with the character, so I don't know if I'd call him borderline unplayable at top level. Same with Ringler.
Yeah I'm not sure how much sense it makes to put Luigi and Samus in a tier above certain characters like Dr Mario.
Dr. Mario is almost entirely reliant on finding random grabs in neutral, which when your opponent is expecting it, can be very hard to do. The rest of his neutral is very meh. A lot of his moves don't actually combo or string together as well as Luigi's or even normal Mario's. Luigi is better because he can escape combos like waveshine up smash and up throw up air way better. Not to mention Luigi's D-air is just a faster and better version of Doc's fair with way less landing lag. As far as DK goes, just like Link he's more of a counter pick character, he doesn't have a solid enough match up spread against the entire cast to be viable. Although he can beat fast fallers every once in a while.
@@MetiCu I definitely agree that Luigi is better than Doc/DK/Ganon/Links, but I don't know if I'd call those characters borderline unplayable. IMO when I used to play Doc's biggest issue was just getting camped and that being very hard to deal with, as well as making the games boring and frustrating. I don't think that makes the character completely unviable, though.
@@MetiCu His weaknesses show so bad against spacies and more generally, the top 6. Bad zoning, stubby normals. It seriously feels like he only gets openings from SUPPER reading approaches.
@@MetiCu big fan
The fact that a few years back, we had yoshi down there with gannon, is… look I’m just saying… c’monnn mannn Kirby ain’t that bad!
I like the differentiation for the splits
I still find it incredibly funny that Hax$ didn't even bother to put ganon on the tier list, and then proceeded to lose to Mekk in bracket
Hax$=🐐
Real ones remember when Hax was saying Yoshi has room to go up the teir list in the future.
I wanna see an evolution of your tier lists as a video
i sure hope ganon makes it on the next list! hax knows a lot about ganon
Hax your list looks great and love your reasoning, except perhaps ICs and Pikachu. Pikachu has only 3 really rough matchups whereas ICs have Peach, Puff, basically all the top tiers and even Samus/Ganon are problems... Is a character with a host of 70/30 matchups really better than a character with three 80/20s?
So because I'm at a point where I hate serious Melee tier lists -- I think the placements are very settled by now -- I skipped to the end. Then I saw Puff's placement being where I once put her, so my first thought was, "Which of us is smoking weed?"
pretty fair list tbh
I totally disagree with the list being settled. Amsa proved that well enough last year, and I have a feeling that he won't be the last underdog success story.
Yoshi isn't #1 so it isn't settled.
The only problem 1.3 has is it's not stealthy for streams. If commentators are in fear of mentioning UCF, I don't see them putting a whole mod on stream.
I think it has a stealth mode
it does
great list
I've always thought that Fox, Falco, and Marth should be considered to have no losing match-up. They go roughly even against each other, and at least on a theoretical level, all three have all the tools required to dominate all other characters.
I think it's more accurate to say that your tier list lines up with results as opposed to the other way around as you were saying at the end of the video. That's a fine way to do a tier list, but I felt like the distinction needed to be stated. This is a tier list based off of results more than theory. You included some theory, but it wasn't the backbone to the list.
2:25 Not sure if you'd ever be up to discussing more in-depth what the "super theoretical end-game" for Falco would be. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on it and maybe what you think current pros could be implementing to close that gap 👍🏼
Tier list are always how good the players are with a character rather then how good is an actual character.
"What if yoshi was the 7th?" -You in twitter dms in June of 2020
You literally predicted this lol
would you be able to make one for doubles or is that too difficult?
Curious what you think about amsa believing that yoshi beats falco and marth (the two characters you argue have no losing matchups), Is that just over-optimistic? If he's right does that put fox in a tier of his own?
he might be being a bit too optimistic, but i still think Fox should be in his own tier. Played optimally I dont think he has an excuse to lose lol.
Iirc he only said that Fox, Falco, Marth could be argued to have no losing matchups, not his true opinion on them. So for all we know Hax might agree with Amsa. It’s probably optimistic though, I’d imagine you have to be in order to push a character that far.
@@cise3895 marth absolutely has at least one losing MU
We need an Abate comeback. His Luigi made headlines. I think Luigi is a fun choice but he’s understandably not great, I used to think that of Yoshi too so anything is possible.
Pretty much fully agree except dk and doc are in the same tier as samus and luigi
and surprisingly, just watch some Leffen with Mewtwo on EU ranked ladder. obviously hes not playing the best players in the world, and Leffen is just really good at melee, but Mewtwo could very well be D rank with potential to get to top 16 at an american major. Either with Leffen or someone who really labs it out. However I do realize that he may be getting really good results because people dont care to learn the matchup until its a real threat.
@@helchin93 leffen is so much better than everyone else in eu, like only trif and pipsqueak come close and he's still way ahead, not surprised he's farming them on slippi with mewtwo
keep em comin
I'm just some scrub on the internet but in my opinion the recency bias is pretty strong here. I would say Peach and Yoshi belong in B. It's too early to say for sure with Yoshi if he should be in A or not, if amsa can keep posting results for another year then maybe we should discuss Yoshi being in A. Climbers, Pika, and maybe Samus belong in C. Peach is so clearly a stronger pick than them that they shouldn't make B. And Luigi doesn't really matter.
Obligatory Luigi Comment:
I would have liked to have seen you expound upon Luigi's match-ups against higher characters in this video. I don't disagree with you assertion that a solo Luigi can't win a Major, but I am curious why you think that. The only matchup I feel that Luigi SIGNIFICANTLY loses is into Marth. Shiek and Falcon also feel disadvantageous, but not unwinnable. Luigi feels about even into the rest (+- 10%). Peach, ICs, and Puff feel sided toward Luigi, Yoshi, Fox, and Pikachu feel about even, and Falco/Samus feel like a loss. I'm by no means a good player (I'm a Luigi main), but I think there is a lot of nuance to the character that has yet to be explored. It's not like he doesn't have the stats: he has 13-15 galint LDs, is only slower than Falcon's Dash while wavedashing, has a 3-frame nair that kills strong and confirms weak, NILs and PlatCancels on almost all of his aerials (INCLUDING nair), and chaingrabs/DI-mixups on 2 of the 3 best characters in the game. I am glad he's on this list (RIP Doc stans), I just hate that his perceived weaknesses discourage serious discussion about his specific matchup viability I guess.
I'd add Doc to C, but the order is correct imo.
Mid-tier Peach is hilarious. Armada is our one true mid-tier hero.
Was* 😭
tbh c tier may as well have doc and stuff in it, i don't think samus and luigi are much better than them
Samus is way better than doc
Overall a nice list besides the Yoshi placement.
I do think Yoshi should be in the top of B tier. My argument is that Amsa's success is giving a recency bias. People are forgetting how good Armada was with peach and putting Yoshi an entire tier above Peach is kinda sus. Armada had a ton of solo Peach success until some top players properly learned the MU and I do believe yoshi is in the same situation right now. I do understand your point that Yoshi goes into A tier because he is "solo winning tournaments," but I truly believe if people learnt the mu Yoshi will have a VERY hard time. Getting past a 6-4 losing matchup against Fox, Falcon, and Sheik is rough. There is also the 55-45 losing Mu's of puff, pikachu, and peach to boot. No other A tier character has 6 bad (55-45 or worse) matchups.
I don't think the GOAT doing well with her shows that much, especially when you consider he had to concede and pick up a fox secondary later in his career. Could be that Yoshi counter play is around the corner, but you have to guess with what you have.
amsa getting yoshi ranked high isnt showing recency bias, hes showing a leveled up version of yoshi, who has now shown he can compete. its completely clear that yoshi has more than we though.
@@drc77777 mango doesn't play peach?
@@drc77777 Dunno that 25-2 against plup looked pretty damning to me (sheik vs yoshi). I would recon Armada Peach versus Hbox puff would have seen a fairly similar result.
@@kevinhirschowitz8550 Yes in the same way Armada showed a "Leveled up version of peach" when he first jumped into the scene in America as all Peaches before him were not that good in relation. After many years though here we are all in agreement of where Peach stands. The situation is very similar to that of Armada so I believe we are on the same trend. 25-2 against plup's sheik :P
Hot take:
Plup is to aMSa what Hungrybox is to lloD, a bracket demon in a borderline unwinnable matchup.
The only reason that Yoshi is above Peach right now is because of Plup’s low attendance, lloD’s low attendance, and other Sheik’s (namely Jmook’s) poor performance vs aMSa when compared against Plup.
Peach (at least theoretically) is still better than Yoshi. I do agree that Yoshi is still in the same tier though.
What is the "theory" that would make Peach better than Yoshi? Because in theory, Yoshi is borderline the best character
I actually almost completely agree with this list. The only thing I would change is putting Falco above Marth and putting Pikachu above the Ice Climbers. I think Falco is better than Marth because I believe Falco being dominant into Captain Falcon is more valuable than Marth being dominant into Jigglypuff. I think Pikachu is better than the Ice Climbers because Pikachu's matchup spread is far more balanced (his worst matchup is maybe 35:65 whereas the Ice Climbers have multiple matchups that are worse)
We should ask an AI algorithm to order the next tier list
Hope you reconsider Link eventually
With the amount of tournies that jiggs has won it just doesn’t make sense for her to be at 6th.
Well according to the past 5 months or so, Yoshi is S tier. Results doesnt determine the tier list.
This is very silly logic
If you want to move jiggs up to 5th, no problem, just say "I refuse to update my game version to 1.3" and Hax agrees with you: Jiggs is above Captain Falcon without the 1.3 update.
If you want to move jiggs higher than 5th...so like above Shiek? Eh, that's a tough sell.
There are so many top level shiek players, and so few top level puff players.
It's literally just Hbox that finds actual success with the character.
Will 1.03 ever fix port priority?
Lets go theSwooper!!
bless
yep this tier list looks a lot more like mine now
appreciate you hax, keep it up, would want to see you at a tournament
love it
I would like to see what happens with link after aklo wins Redemption Rumble
nothing
@@Squidmoto3 kinda like your love life. Absolutely nothing 😂
@@rayzamarripajr.7571 i hope you don't wake up tomorrow
Link will be unchanged by redemption rumble.
Links being used as a counterpick for one character is not new. Armada used to counterpick Young Link into Hungrybox's Jigglypuff. Didn't change Young Link's position on the tier list.
A counterpick for one character is very different from being a solo-mainable character. Aklo still played most of his matches at redemption rumble with Fox (not Link).
@@Squidmoto3 damn sorry you keep losing to links. Maybe gain some skill with practice
Yoshi has been a theoretical S tier masquerading as a mid tier for years. But I think optimizing him is the most difficult out of the tournament viable characters which is why from a human standpoint, he's top tier though not quite S tier. If there were more Yoshi mains in the top 100, you could maybe argue him for even higher on your list but the learning curve is currently too steep. Perhaps as new players join the scene, some of them will outright choose to main Yoshi and they'll be starting from a better place of knowledge because of Amsa. It also helps that Yoshi has no truly terrible match up. He can hang with any of the other characters.
However, I think you have Puff rated too low and despite your criteria, solo Sheik hasn't won a major in almost 20 years. Puff should be the highest in A tier.
I think saying pikachu has near unwinnable matchups vs icies/peach is slightly misplaced. 2-1 vs llod, 1-0 vs slug. Small sample, but when all three of them are equal in player skill level, saying they’re horrible matchups just isnt really backed up by much of anything
Fact
Liquidstats has axe as 0-12 vs armada. I think this is more indicative of the matchup than a mostly unpracticed lloD.
@connorfitzpatrick6571 I don't think using armada is a good example cuz... it's armada, his record vs everyone that wasn't the 5 gods, plup and leffen was insane. Like armada had a near perfect record vs all the falcons and yet its universally agreed falcon beats peach. I feel like trying to use h2hs to decide matchups has a lot of issues
@@connorfitzpatrick6571 Armada's peach also bodied fox, falco, marth, sheik, and falcon so based on your logic, she's an s tier character.
@@connorfitzpatrick6571 terrible braindead logic
This is one of the more sane things I've seen from hax
Why do we base tier lists off of being able to win a super major and not just overall character matchups in the last 30 days? I feel like there are enough variables in super major competition that we wouldn't get the whole picture. I would imagine kill-confirm percentages would become the "He gets on base!" of generic matchups.
Leffen about to bring up Mewtwo as well what I time to play melee
Peach is held back due to a bad wave-dash and run/dash speed
Great points , but you’re sleeping on Doc, DK and Link
Doc, Gannon and DK (YL if you're be really generous) have a chance of eventually making C tier in the future.
Link is better than young link, Id also throw Mewtwo on there as well.
@@billwoods7578 Mobility is literally the most Important thing in melee. Younglink takes that from link any day of the week
@Ray Zamarripa Jr. Link has more range which makes him better at walling out characters, and having stronger moves help deal with couch cancel better than Young Link
Roy, link and YL are c- tier
@@EA_SP0RTCENTER There's no way Roy is in the same tier as the links.
Doc is better than Luigi but yall ain't ready for that yet
Samus is god tier in 30XX
The year is 20EggEgg
please make an optimized falco video
hey hax can I pay you to coach me at dr mario? I promise to spend countless hours fully dedicated to the craft of advancing my mans as long as you will also help me focus them in such a way that doc can reach his right place of #1 over foxmcfraud on the communities sham tierlist
Im sorry but jigglypuff is above falcon the game relased on that version thats the intended version not 1.03 thats like saying pichu is top tier in ultimate because people play on a prior version of 3.1 instead of the new version. The intended version and what the game is relased on is not 1.03 i dont agree with that.
We need DK
The reason you’re putting Yoshi above Peach is because of aMSa, and that’s it. aMSa took Yoshi to another level, but I guarantee you if Armada still dominated with Peach, you would’ve kept Peach in the A tier above Yoshi. Just because one player took a character to new levels, doesn’t necessarily mean it should pass other specific characters, simply because there isn’t solid representation @ the moment (such as with Peach).
Nah it's not because of Amsa results; Yoshi has always been top 8 in theory, we just didn't think it was humanly possible to execute parries in a real game. Turns out, it is possible and it is really strong. Peach has almost the same toolkit, with the double jump cancels, but is worse if you take into account that she is one of the worst character from the ledge, and doesn't have double jump armor or parries like Yoshi. If you can execute it, a parry double jump cancel Nair is better than a powershield double jump cancel Nair form Peach. His toolkit is just better, it was just overlooked as TAS only
What is a super optimal Falco explain that in detail. I'm curious.
In a video it would be best honestly. what is the most optimal Falco strategy.
The reason Hax can't really explain an "optimal" Falco strategy is that Falco's metagame resists true linear optimization. Hax calls it "playing like Mang0" in the video because Mang0's gameplay with Falco revolves heavily around mix-ups and catching his opponents off-guard with approaches and combo routes that they weren't expecting. If you watch an analysis of Mang0's Falco by Ginger, you'll see that Ginger will often point out sub-optimal choices that Mang0 makes but gets away with anyway because his opponent was expecting something totally different.
I believe it was Phil who at Summit 11 called Falco "the last mix-up character" -- and what he says holds true in gameplay. The better an idea the opponent has of what a Falco player is going to do, the worse Falco's options are. So when Hax talks about optimizing some things but still playing like Mang0, he mainly means improving execution and incorporating a few newer, more technical options into the pool of mix-ups Falco already has. This is also why people talk about characters like Sheik being the most "solved" while also saying Falco is the least "solved". The beauty of the bird is that there may never be one true "optimal" way to play him, because the character itself demands imperfection.
@@RafsterMC great write-up
@@RafsterMC very well said
Its honestly sad to see peach be put in B tier. I'm still holding out hope that triff and lloD can win a major with solo peach
My prediction for year 2025:
S- Fox, Falco, Marth
A- Yoshi, Sheik, Puff, Falcon
B- IC’s, Peach, Pika, Luigi
C- Samus, Doc, Link
Disagreed as first but you make good points, great video and list
I love Yoshi he is my favorite all time character he and Knuckles but let's be real.... he isnt that high Amsa is just cracked
mostly theoretical, this isnt about results
He kinda is tho. He combos the whole cast, has great weight, mixup on offense and defense at high level, ect
It makes me so happy that you are yoshi pulled u don’t understand
Incredibly based.
marth doesnt lose to pikachu or yoshi anymore?
Time to put Ganon in C tier
given the improvement on characters like doc, dk and leffens mewtwo, I think its a disservice to leave them completely out of the tier list. Sure they may rank all the lowest, but they are by no means less viable than some of the other mid tiers like luigi and yoshi. Yoshi is only big cuz of amsa, minor successes from some others but no one else is even close.
If someone actually put in the experience they could utilize their strengths much more. Ringler is doing amazing things with DK, Leffen with Mewtwo, and Mang0/franz with doc. The ranking is close, but I think its nuts that after aMSa is finally putting up major wins that we are counting out other roster rejects. There is definitely potential.
I mean I wouldn't call AMSAs success with Yoshi minor. He's up to like 5 TOURNAMENT wins since he broke through. I do think you're onto something with giving credit to other characters.
Yeah that's why these tier lists are yearly, opinions can change due to new developments.
@@porknbeanz think I may have phrased it wrong, I meant that there is very little success on other Yoshis besides aMSa. I think Yoshi is a great character in terms of having strengths no other character has like super armor, 14% damage eggs, unpokable shield. But aMSa worked 10 years to get here and I think it’s more his determination than it is that Yoshi is a cracked character. So yes, yoshi is awesome, but I think soooo many other characters could be crazy in similar ways if they went the aMSa route, the question is if anyone will put that amount of dedication into this 20year old game with prize pools that are not really career worthy unless you’re winning lots of majors
People need to stfu about mango doc and leffen Mewtwo already. They are trash characters. Luigi and samus only barely make the list, and they will never win a super major. People should try playing the game and partaking in deep research instead of just watching their favorite streamer. Twitch is bad for you, kids.
@@EA_SP0RTCENTER I mean maybe just dont listen to what random people on the internet care about if it upsets you so much. I personally want to support people who try to make the game more diverse. I have a lot more fun watching Leffen destroy people with sick mewtwo combos than watch the 1000000th fox ditto. I'm just saying, if these characters are so absolute dogshit, how could they ever even take games/climb ladder? The player is obviously good, but if a character is that bad, they should be losing 90% of their games. I'm not spouting some bullshit that they are taking a major any time soon, I just enjoy seeing people push the game.
YOSHI!!!
Fairly confident that sheik is gonna keep falling on the tier lists. Tech chasing 0-100% gets worse as other characters punishes improves.
We haven't even come to seeing reaction tech chase on spacies reach its highest form. Idk which "other characters" you are talking about, but sheik RTC into fox is one of the biggest potential matchup changes that is currently developing as far as punish goes. Falcon for sure gets buffed by dbooc fix too, but already has a better mu into fox imo.
@@TheAmazingMrSloop I think Yoshi-Sheik illustrates my point fairly well. It used to be seen as unwinnable for yoshi because of sheiks chaingrab but as yoshis (read amsa) punish got better that stopped being such a big deal. If every top tier takes stocks in 2-4 openings RTC isn’t as big of a deal. I think sheik needs other improvements other than RTC to keep her place in the tier list.
@@Laxhax123 You're clueless. You claimed Sheik would fall on the tier list, who is going to pass her? You're a prisoner of the moment. Amsa just lost 25-2 to Plup, Sheik-Yoshi is still very much Sheik-sided even if Amsa is insanely talented. RTC is the biggest punish development throughout the cast (not just with sheik... i.e. falcon, puff, even yoshi), and sheik is probably the biggest abuser/beneficiary of this. No character has a single bigger development that wasn't considered when making this tier list or even the last official tier list. You're just saying things based on results of players, not based on development of the meta.
@@TheAmazingMrSloop I might be clueless but I’d appreciate if you’d keep it civil. I think falcon and puff might have a higher potential than sheik. Anyway, sheik dropping in the tier list was just a thought, I’m not gonna fight you over it. You’re probably more knowledgeable than me. Thanks for the rude reply tho!
Falcon over Jiggly? No way
Other than that good list.
Doc is not bad
stating the top 3 have no losing mus is crack insane.
care to elaborate?
💯
the next one you'll be ranking is Link.
Yoshi is definitely better than peach and almsa's hands at this current state. I'm not sure if he's better than Falcon though.
Interesting list, and Yoshi having no bad matchups is a good point. However, it's pretty wild saying that there's "no chance of samus or luigi ever winning a major in melee's lifespan" at the same time as even Leffen's mewtwo is wrecking top players in Europe and definitely looks viable for getting a major win in the future.
I personally don't think Mewtwo is even half as close to winning a major as even Dr. Mario.
yoshi still gets destroyed by sheik fox and falcon
If one character specialist can take Yoshi this far, it just seems Samus has the tech to be able to compete when optimized. I don't think anyone truthfully measures how good players can get if specializing. The majors are also biased because only an extremely small number of smashers are good enough to actually win them each year.
@@knowk5737 bad matchups but doable for Yoshi. But still bad.
Cheesing the weakest region in the world on netplay with Mewtwo doesn't count.
frankly i think luigi is cheeks and would drop him off the list
Pog
You're saying Falco doesn't lose to Jiggs lol?
Could Peach be worse than Ice Climbers? Ice Climbers don't have nearly as rough of a time versus the top 7 as peach does and the character is very underrepresented currently. Slug made them look like an A tier character last year. I think Peach's slowness is catching up to her in the meta.
Can you explain why you think ICs do better against the top 7 than Peach? Because Slug makes ICs look broken cause Slug is built different. Cause unless wobbling is legal no way Peach is worse than ICs.
I'm a peach main..never lost a 1v1 vs ICs just throwing it out there
@@RIStar-ds7wr ics beat sheik for starters, arguably better combos on fastfallers is what I'm assuming, also ics have a better Marth matchup.
@@EA_SP0RTCENTER Peach isnt actually that bad against Marth. Watch Armada play against marth. He makes marth look near impossible to get in on peach.