The Melee Community's Controller Crisis
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- Опубліковано 19 лип 2024
- With ongoing controller discussions persisting for quite some time, a shift in focus is the next step forward. By embracing a modernized game version, the Melee community can lay controller legality concerns to rest while also elevating the level of play.
Revised and edited according to community feedback.
b0xx.com
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seems to be a scripted and compressed version of the previous video, so a lot more approachable for people (especially since it's 40 mins shorter). thanks for making this revised version!
Ok... but where is the first version?!
@@xg.55555 privated or deleted
A lot of people were putting heat on Hax for "putting community members in a bad light" in order to get his ideas across better. This revised version seems to have catered to those complaints.
As someone who likes longform content I’m curious how the 40 min version was exactly
@@UnderfellSansTheEdgySkeleton honestly, a good bit of it was him fumbling with slides and whatnot since it was unscripted. hence why he released this revised version
As someone who doesn't play Melee (or Smash in general, really), it's crazy to me how puritanical and ideological the Melee community tends to be. You'd think that competitive Melee players would want to fix the game's bad/unfinished mechanics and even patch the illegal glitches out of the game on a software level to make the game more competitive, but I guess making the game more competitive and accessible is not within the community's interest.
As the common principle on the internet typically goes, "Change is good, except when I don't like the change." The Smash Melee community never ceases to amaze me with how terrible its optics are.
in Asumsaus's video where he said he spent 500 dollars on a controller my draw dropped. it was like, bro... Melee players live like this?! very glad someone involved in the community is both raising and answering the questions that need to be asked to make the scene actually sane to onlookers.
I spent close to 200 dollars on a mostly naked phob controller, I feel like it's worth it because it's the best joystick I have played with ever (including other consoles like xbox and playstation), but Its's absurd that some techniques and consistent gameplay can be more than twice as expensive than a console+game disc+vainilla controller. Hope everyone can enjoy a consistent an logical experience playing this game (I still remember in 2014 how much of a local meme was missed dashback 'yo he is looking for his wallet' when your carácter doesn't dash dance and keeps turning around).
I would keep being happy with my phob since it feels like a premium GCC, but would hate it of it was a advantage in any other way than just comfort over a GCC.
Ive total spent over 1.2k on controllers and 2 of them are basically almost dead in the water. Been almost 3 yrs
@@michaelxv203 are you top 100? i've been playing for competitively for 10+ years and only use oem gamecube controllers lol. Been thinking about making my own phob pretty soon
Did you pick your draw up
@@math8755 I feel that phob 2.0 should be driving the costs down, esp for naked phobs. It's much easier to build so less labor should be factored into the cost. I've built an earlier version and 200 is still quite a markup.
thanks for making this shortened, edited video. a very concise and straightforward video.
i’m glad you took out the story about the UCF creators. i felt it was a misstep that could cause needless drama, so good on you.
It's crazy how receptive you are to feedback and how quick the turnaround time is on the editing. Great stuff, Hax. I watched the full original video but I'm sure this one is more digestible to a wider audience!
I too am in favor of eliminating uncompetitive game mechanics.
We should ban peach bomboms, miss fires, and g&w 9s.
And who decides what is “uncompetitive”
@@Caleb-xw4tw do you not understand the differences between intended and unintended randomness?
@@autoteleology I certainly do, and I still hate all of the above.
@@autoteleology Intended doesn't align with competitiveness, and smash's history, its often the opposite. Bring back items if you want to introduce more intended randomness lol
Far more concise and useful than the other video!
Well-organized, with clear points.
this is so much better than the first one. its sad to see some people are harassing ptas and other or acting like dicks in general and think they speak in your name. these people dont see that they just do a disgrace to you. i really hope we as a community can find a compromise :)
It makes sense to fix anything that results from bad polling luck. I don’t know why we want games decided by luck.
All sports are decided by luck
Because that is the game. You start changing the game itself you are no longer playing the game you're playing a romhack.
Nice to see you in more of a dialogue with PTAS, hope that yall get a chance to put your heads together more.
Man your response to the community regarding editing: outstanding!!
Appreciate you adding in that the con of .9875 being logically inconsistent was with your (probably better) idea of maximizing shield drop ranges
This is a significantly better video than the last one, good shit
hax i would like to say you are the most rational person in the smash community, when i listen to others the bias and inconsistent logic hurts.
He has definitly improved, but calling him the most rational person is definitely a bit of stretch considering all the leffen is dark triad shit. To his credit recently he has been incredibly well spoken when presenting this form of arguement
@@Daniel-ej8ll he was right
@@kansiwiz its been 5 months man
convince crimson blur and HugS. they have the biggest voice for people who were NEVER able to get top ranking.
the fact they're voices in the community is beyond me
This is much much better, good shit.
Something I don't see discussed pretty much ever when it comes to the legal controllers debate is that the boxx and other fight pad controllers are far more accessible to people who have disabilities or otherwise have issues (medically not preference). Gate keeping a game based on what controller ppl use is absurd and tbh it really feeds into the negative view ppl have of the smash community
Not exclusive to melee, box-like controllers exist in many other fighting games and they’re all controversial.
@@Saltience there is literally no other community that debates this more I can promise you that lmao
In most other games fight pads are accepted and preferred
Ngl these are some solid points. Especially about the 1-frame delay on the new UCF shield drop coordinates. That just seems strange to me. Making the dash out of crouch more accessible and easy to perform seems like a no-brainer, since it lowkey should be a fundamental movement option. The only change that I'm still unsure about is the SDI remainder fix. It seems difficult to implement this change covertly at major events if the match is being analyzed frame by frame (and the visual fix would probably happen a lot).
Man i just wanna play Melee without tap jump
Too disruptive to how the game is traditionally played imo. I know there’s an argument to me made for it, but for me that crosses a line for some reason. I support all the changes listed in this video though
@@dylanjastle Same
As much as I want to turn off tap jump it crosses the line :(
I literally have never played this game yet this channel is so fascinating, thx Hax
thanks for making this instead of just leaving the other one
glad you took the criticisms and made the adjustments, your points are strong enough to stand all on their own. good shit hax
I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't consider port priority to be a game mechanic issue that needs to be fixed
Good call to rerelease the condensed version. I was worried more drama would be needlessly caused by the other one
1.03 is definitely the right way forward for the melee community!
So well presented. My opinion doesn't matter in this arena but fwiw I am convinced after watching this. I don't keep up with the melee community anymore after they ostracized you but I hope you and this topic are getting the respect you deserve.
I hope to the gods that 1.03 succeeds
Amazing video! I’m absolutely fascinated by this, and you can tell he’s extremely passionate and knowledgable about the subject.
While I love technical videos like this, I’m completely unfamiliar with the context surrounding the controversy and mechanics/proposed fixes, and with this being presented at an expert level, a lot of it went over my head. Is there a longer video that explains these concepts more in-depth, or somewhere I could go to learn more?
He has multiple previous videos on this. Also looking at pro reactions to these videos
This man has given the Melee community so so so much 🙏 Thank you so much, dude 🔥
Very well put together! This should definitely be the standard.
Let's go moky! He knew that Cody's controller had that fault and he capitalized
Great video Hax. We need 1.03. These mechanics should all be fixed
The ONLY issue I have with the B0xx is that it minimizes human error. You're not going to miss you're 1.0 dash cuz you're nervous. The level of accuracy needed to play on a controller is just higher in general. I also don't think the box or non OEM controller boards should be banned either though since we need to move away from our dependency on Nintendo. OEM controllers will become more scarce and it's more of a "pay to win" if you need to get a new OEM controller (which will go up in price as the game gets older) every few months VS getting something like a box or Phob where almost every part of those controller can be sourced outside of Nintendo and their "When/if we feel like it" re-stocks of Gamecube controllers & and are just downright built to last longer.
The fact that it's easier to dash from one direction to the other more quickly means it's also easier to rush your input and make mistakes that never happen on gcc due to natural travel time. Minimization of human error isn't correct here, there's tradeoffs.
@@Acryte I think getting perfect accuracy in trade for learning a new timing is a DAMN good trade off. Almost too good tbh.
I don't get why the community is taking so long to implement these changes, people are already spending $100+ for controllers that basically do the same as the fixes, Why add a paywall to melee?
It doesn't get implemented because community "leaders" would rather have no fix than have it come from someone like hax. The smash has far too many vacuous people
I keep hearing stories of people spending several hundred dollars on a single controller. I'd hope the proposed software fixes can prevent a pay-to-win situation like this
people play at a competitive level (even top players) use OEM a 40.00 option.
people are just bad.
much much much better version of the last video
Well presented and well researched.
I love your vids, but the long version was a bit too much. Really enjoyed this compressed version!
Grinding out this video like you would some new tech haha 20XX!
let's get real, even it's a game people play in tournament, the reason why melee is considered hard to get into is because it's a game riddled with bug and technical issue, so much so there is actually a "meta" regarding the gamecube port in wich you are inserting your pad.
I like pretty much everything you brought up, though all changes to the game should come in a trickle, so that we can monitor game feel, its been around so long, any changes to the game should be tested on independently of each other, you may be at 1.03 but everyone else will need this testing and trust built with each induvial change mimicking (likely) your own process with each... also my only real gripe with the box and the controllers emulating it, is shield, switching from hard to light shield on a dime breaks my mind, as you can do this before but it had more limitations, I made a lot of my game plan around this switch with z and L, but now everyone does it without any art to it at all. I don't even know if this can be changed on the box though. the switch is not just easier you could do the switch before with more limitations, this L Z switch with shield will have huge consequences on the game.
i havent seen the ban notches take but after hearing it im all for it
if there are some things in my favorite game that don't act as they should, then i am in favor of reviewing them and potentially standardizing fixes for them in the near future
I honestly haven't played Melee since roughly Brawl's launch, but I still watch tournament highlights for Melee and Ultimate. That being said, what you're trying to accomplish with the push for making inputs more fair and consistent is something truly valuable. It really makes me wish Nintendo had a more Sega-like approach when it comes to adopting the progress that's been made thanks to community efforts.
Much better video! Although the mention of slideoffs as an example for SDI polling issues seems more buzzword based because typically for slideoffs you anticipate the hit during the knockdown and are holding it for quite some time before the hit even connects... So I doubt that polling related issues are very common with them specifically.
I actually think that having a wider range of shield dropping with correspondingly increased delay is a great way to make Melee more accessible to beginners, and it doesn't practically matter for higher level players who will strive for the 0-frame delay shield drops regardless. :)
Edit: Also, the argument that "1.0 is better for those characters with magnitudinal up-Bs" is simply not logically sound. If a character which could use .9875 to benefit themselves no longer can, having access to maximum dash speed doesn't suddenly offset their loss, because every other character can access it as well.
It's nice to see the UA-cam community is much more intelligent than the Twitter community.
Whenever you say AT Shield, all I hear is an Evangelion AT Field lol. Melee is diving in the tang I guess
I think this video makes a ton of sense. Does anyone have any video or media that serves as a counterpoint to this? I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to fix uncompetitive design flaws in the code or why fixing that wouldn’t help solve the controller Spider-Man meme that is melee
damn this man really a smash professor
This is all above my level.
An issue I see brought up with 1.03 in discussion is the trouble it could cause for broadcasting tournaments online. The argument is that Nintendo has a history of cracking down on software modifications used in tournaments, and could issue a C&D to tournaments or have them taken off platforms like Twitch. Supposedly UCF gets around this by not being visibly detectable in game.
As someone who doesn't play or watch much of any competitive Smash, do these arguments have much merit? If so, is there a way to solve for these problens in 1.03?
Nintendo has a history of killing it's competitive scenes even when no software modification is involved either due to how defensive they are of their IP or by sheer incompetence.
Nintendo has dropped the ball multiple times at this point and I don't see it changing.
As purely a spectator and not a player, I am for software mods to fix some of these inconsistencies. It's not like you're playing Sailor Moon S on the SNES and having fun with friends clowning on how bad it can be. Significant sums of money are won and lost in front of an audience of hundreds of thousands (once online views are taken into account). These tournaments are bigger than many people realize. So having matches, sets, and even tournaments won or lost because some arbitrary bug happened just doesn't feel right.
We enjoy Melee because some of it's original jank led to complex mechanics and fast paced action that required an awe inspiring amount of technical mastery and game knowledge. But now a point has been reached that mechanics usable in a tournament setting have been exhausted. Now matches are lost because this 22 year old software just splits at the seems where it's being tested. Like a missed input pull of the controller. If Melee wants to continue growing it's audience in the future, it needs to have changes made to the tournament setting itself. Things that encourage new players to pick up the game and grind out matches to get better. Without the needs to buy hyper specific hardware to compensate for some of the software flaws.
Well said. I 100% agree.
everyone that cares about compedative melee should watch this video. i agree 100% to create a healthier scene. good video, i appreciate te you Hax$.
I'm one of the rare ppl who thinks we should fix faulty mechanics, as well as fix everything broken with melee. Including unviable characters, missing hitboxes, and even adding new legal stages. I wish there was a melee committee to vote on patches and keep the game fresh and have less garbage tier characters.
Project M was that game for me. It kept all the good Melee characters true to how they played before, improved the low tiers, added a few missing from Brawl with massive buffs, and infinity legal stages since it's already a mod. Obviously the Melee oldheads were not fully convinced (some did enjoy it while it lasted) since it's far different from just being patched Melee. I find it better in the way combines the best of both Melee and Brawl but I wish the community hadn't let it die. They didn't want to stay underground by supporting mods that Nintendo doesn't like, look where that got them with this year's Smash World Tour shitstorm.
The only problem I see with this is how Nintendo would react to people modding melee indiscreetly. I would like these changes, but seeing how Nintendo reacts to mods, they probably won't happen.
These are solid points, but it still ignores core issues. Even if you don't oppose the stated changes, you shouldn't have advantageous hardware while the authority is debating this standardization. If the Boxx purely exists just to 'force the question' of the benefit of these mechanics, it should be outright banned until the mechanics are standard, like how they stated in the Joshman Leffen video. I would also call for more transparency for the UCF team to showcase their decision-making when it comes to whether or not these mechanics and the pace of changing is an overall 'good thing' for the community. Personally I'm against rapid change, but I'm not against letting it evolve to what Hax has stated over time.
He didnt say the boxx exists purely to force the question, he said that by happenstance the boxx forces the question, but that the question should be asked anyway.
this is 100% incomprehensible to me but im watching anyway. i literally have no idea what you’re talking about
I haven't played competitive melee in many years now, but I'm absolutely in favor of all these fixes being standardized. Good move to take feedback and remove the criticism of the UCF team's questionable decision-making, even though it was absolutely warranted.
We already have to deal with hacked wiis, emulation and controller fixes in many instances. There's no reason we shouldn't continue to improve the game like this
What does 3 frame dbooc fix that isn't fixed by the extra coordinates?
There's an inconsistency here in being upset that dashback only fix benefits some characters, but not caring about nerfing some character with full 1.0 cardinal.
IMO no fixes should nerf characters, as thats not a fix at that point.
One thing you're missing with the "Game designer" stance is that its not a hard science, its fuzzy and you need to go with what feels good, rather than what can technically be correct. which is why the ucf.84 fix is preferred.
The purpose is for mechanics to be consistent, not necessarily "perfected"
My controller crisis is getting a decent controller, and then it lasting through intense melee play
"I wrote chapters..." he says nonchalantly. THE MELEE SCHOLARS.
could not agree more!
I think we need melee two. The more competitively viable the game is, the less strong the Boxx becomes
only thing im worried about as a low level player/spectator is do i reeeeeeally want to see sdi and tech chasing buffed? I know it makes it more consistent and is essentially a fix, but do we really want those things to be consistent? not in terms of just who benefits and if it's fair, but im worried buffing defensive and minimally interactive mechanics might make the game 10% lamer
am i wrong to worry?
SDI is the exact opposite of a minimally interactive mechanic. It allows for the player getting hit to introduce mixups and many layers of counterplay that wouldn't exist otherwise.
@@felixronkainen8880 i agree, sdi is interactive i was talking about tech chasing
I can only hope you eventually convince the scared purists to accept this change.
good shit man
Much better dude.
Short, precise information is better.
Short papers and not manifestos too.
When i figured out that the new gc controller didnt have analog triggers it was a no go, even if you dont need them for smash, id have been playing way more than just smash with it
dude i clicked with it being 2 seconds online jeez
wow, something that my attention span can tolerate!!
first of all great work putting all this effort into figuring everything out for us
second, i think we should fix this stuff but some of your changes like the 1.0 cardinal thing seem to be a bit of an overreach. maybe take it small steps at a time instead of adding giant areas? i bet you don't need that many extra for it to make a huge difference.
One thing that worries me is I've had a number of bad experiences with box/keyboard players getting out of screw attack with a consistency that feels tas like gonna need to solve that problem before i feel comfortable with an sdi fix especially since my two characters really don't care about fox's up air.
Screw attack sucks are gccs consistently get out. Watch pipsqueaks video on samus
@@NintenJoe screw attack is pretty good dude I've been playing the game long enough to know the difference between when it's normally possible to escape and when my opponent has some extra help
Seems to be the best solution.
thanks hax
i propose we make toggling z jump on and off be a stealth mod. like hold down l and r and press z and a at the same time or something
how will this affect yeat's legacy?
As a relatively noncompetitive melee player, I do get the perspective of "these 'fixes' are just buffing people that miss inputs." The polling solutions feel especially reasonable because of the luck factor that is associated with them. For shield drops, I wish Nintendo had just increased the range of the entire band instead of making it so ridiculously narrow. I don't see why spot dodge needs such a large window when 1.0 is an acceptable and reasonably easy-to-hit value. Unfortunately that change is basically impossible to make in a non-arbitrary way
Very clearly argued.
Its only a crisis because of things like the CheatBox and wanting to destroy the game by "fixing" it
But what’s a dashback :(
Cool vid, I'm a really casual player so I don't know much about the topic. How this would play out legally with Nintendo? They have a history of getting in the way of any sort of mods to their IP. Would they have any power to shut this down from being used at tournaments or is it something they can't prove? Would tournaments have to run on PC versions rather than gamecubes, or would it beike 20XX where it can be loaded on a cartridge?
Thanks to anyone who can answer
They already have a problem with UCF .8 and earlier so I think that this will ultimately cause Nintendo to be the same level if not more upset about that. Unless we can get them to "sponsor" 1.03 (or an equivalent), we'll be in the same boat as we were in before.
@@pjaz6800 Pretty sure all versions of UCF are hidden right? A stealth mode, sort of speak. Can't take down what you can't see.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, almost all tournaments are run on homebrewed Wiis that have melee on an sd. Gamecube are rarely used
thanks
You say those are bugs to be fixed I'd say those are features.
People forgot that this is not a game designed to be competitive but a party game.
At this point might as well balance the whole game includes buffing and nerfing characters.
well items are also a feature of the game, do you also agree we should play the game like the creators intended it or play it the way YOU prefer to play it?
Hey, while I appreciate the fact that you went out of your way to make your explanation shorter, I also really enjoy your longform content. So I think it would be a good idea to keep both versions uploaded, since I'm sure I'm not the only one who enjoys a thorough explanation of the mechanics of the game. This way the previous video doesn't become essentially Lost Media.
The other video was just unlisted, you can see the ID for it in another comment and just edit your URL to get to it (or find it in your browser history if you watched it before). I've also downloaded it with yt-dlp for preservation.
@@SoundToxin Thanks a lot for the info! I actually didn't know about these methods :D
I should have bought 10 controllers when Ultimate came out. Now they are 70 or more for a new official Nintendo controller
Aziz my brother wallah 😌 has done it again
you ever think of providing a leverless for non-smash fgc?
Saying the B0XX needs nerfed because of how bad gamecube controllers are is the equivalent of salty old people getting mad that kids don't have it as bad as they did growing up.
no, the reason why most people complain is because a boxx is $250 and a GameCube controller is $40, Boxx is capable of preforming techniques that would be humanly impossible to do constsinatly with a controller, the boxx is supposed to be an alternative to regular controllers not a controller that is better in every way.
btw hax is the one selling the box and 1.03 so of course he is gonna say their fine
@@Daniel-ej8llthen don’t use the box? You don’t HAVE to get a box to win. I swear the smash community is a bunch of babies, it’s why the FGC pushes back against them.
@@xRuinedFaithx The box is fundamentally better than a controller, The game is intended to be played with a controller, so the box should be nerfed
unfortunately, while i do agree with the points given, the biggest obstacle to a movement like this is and has always been nintendo. if we make sweeping changes to the game and standardize even more modifications, that could potentially lead to more negative action coming from the company
i think the main important thing the community needs to address is a port to the pstriple. consider: super smash brothers would be ballin as shit on that triple. you'd be gettin dre, tupac, biggie, nas, Lil Jon. Def jam brothas.
Hey, do you play kingdom of loathing ?
Would love it if slippi included the fixes states here m
What about a controller to GameCube adapter?
That solves the problem with the controls setup (Xbox to GameCube with RB for wavedashing)
people have tried that and its kinda shit since newer controllers don't have notches and don't feel the same, Personally I have played using both a PS4 and Xbox controller and its simply worse than a GameCube controller
Tbh banning all controllers would be a universal fix
Personally I think what would be nice is to make a new version of the game with a few fixes maybe updates or whatever. And make it digitally available
I definitely think things have gone off the rails if the main barrier for the competitive scene is money. Paying to boost a character is greatly looked down upon. Why is paying a sizeable premium for a controller that gives the player a competitive advantage not?
Is there another videogame with such a harcore fanbase that they don't even bother to name the game that they are talking about before they start the video... I stumbled on this video like, wtf is going on
I think accessibility (including financial accessibility) is the higher goal, therefore controller equality is the higher goal. Fundamentally, competitive integrity is a way to maintain the pleasure of the sport, but it is not the end goal in itself. It's kind of a tired truism at this point, but you can have the most rigidly balanced, skill-based game that no-one plays because it has no freshness or excitement.
Fortunately, both of these values tend to align. Z-jump has nothing to do with the controller lottery and from what I've seen is a fairly uncontroversial modification to the game. This should be the paradigm for all modifications to the game. Do people like it? Is it easy to implement for organized play? Does it make the game more consistent and less taxing to play, without sacrificing meaningful competitive advantages? Then there is no reason why it shouldn't be standardized.
edit: I guess z-jump could be part of the "modernizing the game", but I think "modernizing" is a pretty vague term in general. Modern fighting games have an input buffer, I doubt melee ever will, for example.