September 2023 SSBM Tier List
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- Опубліковано 10 вер 2023
- My latest tier list entertains the possibility of an endgame triangle between 3 top tier characters! A certain dual-main strategy may prove to be the best in the game.
Edit: Messed up the audio settings on this one, sorry about that. :(
b0xx.com
/ ssbmhax
/ ssbmhax
/ discord - Ігри
slippi giving fox all the resources he needs is fitting
Of course Slippi is biased...
Thats good because Fox definitely needed a buff.
Rich get richer smh
I get it :)
ok but why you recording underwater tho
New here?
New York rent was too high.
Cause his movement is so fluid 👌😩
There's always something. Last time he put Zelda instead of Sheik on the top tier (and Sheik in the irrelevant bunch).
fox players pick up sheik for marth. marth players pick up icies for sheik. the arms race ends when everyone realizes this is stupid and just goes solo fox
but Fox is too haaaard!
-20XX 2023
Reminds me of a Match YL vs Ness
player1: Fox
player2: Marth
Player1: Sheik
Player2: Icies
Player1: Samus/Peach
Player2: Puff
Player1: Marth
Player2: C.Falcon
Player1: Falco
Player2: Marth
Player1: Pikachu
Player2: Sheik
Player1: Puff
Player2: Fox
repeat forever
@@tuPHwUnI was referring to this: ua-cam.com/video/0osuNxURlzE/v-deo.html
Still believe if there was an aMSa for Luigi he would be able to get similar results. Maybe I am crazy but I just see so much potential in the character
I feel this way about a handful of characters
@burstyourbubble3500 I am not afraid to admit I do not have the focus or determination to become the best Luigi in Australia let alone the world, plus my hands hurt if I play too long... :( Still believe it is possible though!
madtyro just needs to play for 8 more years without breaking his hands
I’m kinda doomer on luigi tbh his recovery is just so terrible. Cyclone can help but most players don’t have the mashing ability to do it. Plus marth is pretty close to a roadblock matchup imo
@@realw1ll 100% get this. Even so I think Luigi has a theoretical insane combo game on Fox that rivals top tiers. His wavedash alone makes me believe he can engage on his own terms so long as he wins the mental. I see a bad recovery simply as meaning the opponent needs less neutral wins to take a stock, which is not a deal breaker.
Marth is rough, but I don't think it is unwinnable thanks only to his insane wavedash. He does also has an arguable bonus of being able to edgegaurd Marth pretty well himself due to his medium weight, although it can be risky. Maybe secondary pikachu for Marth :D
Probably should start ranking Ganon and DK
I would like to hear some description of Donkey Kong, His 20XX Tech skill and punish game as well as tools against the top tiers makes him look alive.
I'm waiting for the day DK makes into this tier list.
Oh he will
He is so much better than samus it isnt funny. His up b is all of samus’ ground moves and her up b put together, but less committal because you dont leave the ground.
@@ln8496smoking crack
@@ln8496Samus kinda sucks imo the only reason she's still here is bc of legacy bias
Like DK ain't bad into fox (at least compared to Samus) so I don't get his take.
Did mew2king predict the future meta?
Yes
I agree with the order 100% but I'd put puff and falcon in a-tier and climbers and pika in b-tier.
Yeah pretty much wanted to say exactly this. Doesn't feel right to have Jiggs and Falcon in S tier
Bobby died for this
You have a great voice dude, combined with melee it makes great content lol. And I couldn't agree more with your reasoning for the top 3 and how you see the endgame developing.
a year ago people called me crazy for putting Yoshi above Peach and Sheik above Puff
Sick teirlist I enjoy that you explain every character with a good argument
omg this tier list is insane and i love it. sending to all my falco homies rn
As a falco main I do agree with this new placement lol
babe wake up new objectively correct opinion dropped
Fairly agreeable list I think you'll see bigger things coming from Samus in the future enough to bump her up into the next tier atleast
Agreed. Samus is dope.
Ps are you the player from East Coast Canada? Noticed your username
@@j0rd0 yes i am
@fancey3870 Sick! I'm east coast Canada as well, I think we played each other in a tournament many years back. (You whooped me) hope you're well!
interesting, i figured since top 8s can have up to 5 foxes in them and usually max out at 2 marths, falco would still get the nod over sheik for being better vs fox. ICs and Puff still are quite bad for Sheik where Falco doesnt have match ups that bad.
Fox at 1, Falcon at 6, Samus at 11, and Luigi 12 is very solidified for me.
Peach being better vs Fox, Sheik, Falcon (she loses those mus, but they're playbale), Pika, ICs and Samus than Yoshi is in those mus keep her ahead of Yoshi. Also Peach beating Yoshi. The Puff mu and to a lesser extent Marth are really tough for Peach so I can see how people would put Yoshi over Peach, but Yoshi's Fox, Sheik, Falcon, and Peach match ups are brutal as evidenced by aMSa's recent records vs the best players of those characters. So I feel Peach has less VERY tough matchups to dodge than Yoshi. And luckily for Peach, her worst mu in Puff is not a common one and it's easier to dodge hbox these days. Dodging top Foxes has never really been feasible though; you have to beat at least 1-3 to win a major. Kind of a tradeoff where Peach has a must-dodge match up in Puff and Yoshi has four very bad match ups that arent quite MUST-dodge, but aMSa will never be favoured vs the best of those 4 characters.
Yoshi and Pika have very similar mu spreads except Yoshi does far better vs Puff and better vs ICs and Pika does somewhat better vs Falcon so I always have them 8 and 9.
ICs I have at 10 bc they only beat Sheik and Pika and they are horrendous vs Peach, Puff, and to a lesser extent Falcon. But ICs still have the huge grab damage potential which can mitigate the terrible match ups a bit and give them a chance vs the other top tiers. But also doesn't help ICs that Ganon and Luigi can also be a pretty big threat to them. ICs stay relevant cause top players that aren't a Puff, Peach, or Wizzrobe are still not clean enough to avoid grab consistently.
I'm still good with Ganon at 13 since he's good into Samus and ICs and although he's very bad vs the S tier characters, at least he can get a lot off grab. Mekk doing work with Ganon and being ranked higher than the best Doc and DK supports this placement too.
Yea not sure I agree with sheik being above Falco lol
TLDR my list would be this, but I do like Hax's reasoning in his lists cause weighing match ups by their importance in the meta makes sense. Like if you lose hard to Fox it's tough.
S: Fox, Marth, Falco, Sheik
A: Puff, Falcon, Peach
B: Yoshi, Pika, ICs, Samus
C: Luigi, Ganon, Doc, DK
D: YL, Link, Mario
E: Roy, G&W, Mewtwo
F: Pichu, Zelda, Ness, Kirby, Bowser
Ganons not that bad for ics at least according to nintendude and some other ics
I think dk lowkey could be better than luigi honestly. Luigi is just more exploitable and dk up b is so versatile
mekk has shown ganon is much better in modern meta than expected
You should do a tier list that goes down to the worst character that beat you in tournament
As a Falco main I agree with this. I feel like I get absolutely destroyed by Sheik. One of my worst matchups and turns my shield pressure around on me every time.
Idk if it’s the sheiks I’m facing or what but I have no problem against sheik as a Falco
We need full tier list I want to hear his opinions on all characters in the game
A few years from now, fox players will realize Pikachu is actually the best counterpick they could do versus Marth.
Same jumpsquat argument, but on top of that the gameplan is closer to fox than sheik is; you just get punished way less hard and survive much more as pikachu vs marth than as fox, and have better edgeguard, with similar up-throw confirm but a slightly weaker neutral game (which doesn't matter THAT much considering how much more attempts you get due to the increased survivability)
Putting aside which of Pika and Sheik has a better match, Pika as a secondary can put you into some awkward counterpick wars. You're a lot more vulnerable to counterpicks (Fox and Sheik) using Pika.
if axe picks up fox again it's joever
Full tierlist next for sure, thanks🙏
I don't think Hax cares for low tiers, unfortunately
I don't like consolidating down to 3 tiers for this. I think with the characters you're looking at, there are some clear tiers that you captured well in your previous list:
- Wins regularly
- Wins occasionally
- Rarely or never wins, but it is or should be possible
- Never wins, and should never be expected to win, but is a threat to upset/make top 8
(and then everything not tiered isn't even a threat to upset, although I might add a few more characters to that final group).
There's a results-based argument that only Fox and Marth should be in "wins regularly", given the limited pool of players that have ever won majors with any other character, but it's hard to disentangle that from how few players actually win majors at all, so I could see ending this top tier anywhere from after Marth to after Puff. But I just can't see Falcon belonging up there when Wizzrobe is the only Falcon to ever do it, and has only done it a handful of times (depending on which events you count, arguably only once). By results Yoshi is arguably better than Falcon in terms of threat to win, though I'm not saying I'd put Yoshi above Falcon on a tier list.
Similarly, I have a hard time seeing ICs or Pikachu in the same tier as Yoshi or Falcon given their lack of results - while winning Summit is extremely impressive, it's a different sort of thing than winning a "normal" major, and Axe generally looks like less of a threat than Wizzy or aMSa. At the same time, I think your list correctly identifies a big gap between those two and Samus/Luigi, where the latter two don't seem close to having a shot to win an event, as it's rare for them to even make top 8.
All that having been said, if you're going to have just 3 tiers, then I think bumping at least Falcon down to A tier would make sense, given what I said above.
I think this tier list is a consequence of recency bias and will change within the next year. Sheik is not as good as people say she is and when people really start to dissect the MU and play style of top sheik players, she will swap with Falco again.
I also think the yoshi stuff will fade over time. A top ten character? Sure. But above peach? I can’t see it.
Love the in depth look at this list though. Keep up the good work Hax!
I mean, sheik has her struggles, but I think Hax's points regarding Sheik's marth advantage are really insightful.
Ive yet to see a top player tier list that doesnt have massive recency bias lol
I think Yoshi does better against top tier characters than Peach.
NOOOOO WE HAVE TO HAVE BE MERCURIAL!!!
Where would you put Donkey Kong now that he has more solid placings and representation at the top level?
This seems about right but instinctually I'd split it a little different
recently I counted the mains of the top 100 didn't account for dual mains here so there'd only be 100 entries which means it is a little inaccurate but
27 fox
12 shiek
11 marth
11 falco
9 falcon
9 peach
7 puff
4 icies
10 "weirdos" to quote zain's tier list characters so Doc/Yoshi/Samus/Yink/pika that sorta deal
Where characters weigh in the top 100 could bring room for discussion it's kinda clear there's a slight division between falco and falcon/peach/puff
personally I'd just shift everything down by 1 and have puff falcon in A then yoshi peach icies pika in B, samus luigi C
I personally think Falcon should go into A-Tier... Especially since he does not have any winning matchups in S-Tier. Yoshi at least has favorable matchups in S-Tier.
The line in the sand seems pretty definitive for Falcon, he absolutely does not beat S-tier characters.
I fully agree. Falcon's almost complete lack of major wins supports this. IMO Yoshi would go over Falcon if it wasn't for Yoshi's evidently terrible Fox matchup
Great video but bummer about the mic quality
A better mic would really bring his videos to the next level
Interesting that Falco has jumped all the way up to 4th, from 7 years ago in your Daily Dot AMA when you put him at 8th
Fox/sheik worked well for me for quite a while!
I think if the criteria is specifically looking at solo main you gotta still give it to falco over sheik and possibly even bump falcon above for having less full stop match ups at the top but if you are factoring in dual main, especially given relatively speaking how little upkeep sheik takes comparitively, sheik easily outplaces falco.
I wish some balance changes can be made for the rest of the characters that are never viable for tournament play.
there are mods like beyond melee and sd remix
pretty much flawless. looks exactly like mine besides maybe one or two placements
Thanks for commenting here, MetiCu; it's been too long since I've seen your stuff.
How many more games will Hax have to lose to coolio and TPN before he bumps Link above DK and doc?
fwiw, I dunno about fox sheik dual maining, because I think that in practice dual main fox loses to solo main fox, and honestly I think we've kinda seen this play out with leffen and plup. in theory the matchup spread is probably the best in the game, but I think that dual maining fox with a character that loses to fox (ie, not falco or marth) is kinda sus for that reason.
I think Leffen has it down to a tee. Fox with a pocket Shiek for Marth. Plup leans more towards Shiek which helps in most match ups but hurts him in the fox ditto. Leffen has a super specialized Shiek that probably doesn't need more maintenance than the Fox Marth matchup.
0:03 Intro
1:45 Fox
2:43 Marth
4:03 Sheik
5:30 Falco
11:10 Puff / Falcon
13:44 Yoshi
15:01 Peach
16:44 ICs / Pikachu
18:24 Samus
19:01 Luigi
20:12 Outro
Ily
I'm a scrubby ultimate player but i love these melee meta discussions
The one i'll predict will change is pika, given that quick attack is still a bit underdeveloped and swift with his 2001 a Space Odyssey ass controller might be the one to advance the metagame
No expert however. I think the one thing that keeps Sheik from being rated that high is her horrible ICs matchup.
Other than marth and fox, every other character has at least one bad mu
marth has pikachu, fox has marth@@SRM13
Marth / Falcon dual main is lowkey crazy, maybe not at a top level because it doesn't cover Sheik as well, but at lower levels it can help cover certain playstyle that a Marth main might struggle against. They have the same jumpsquat and long dashes so they're not terribly different on that front. The biggest advantage is that Falcon just go in and fucking kill quick. Even if you can beat annoying floaties with Marth, just getting two knees instead is way easier.
- A Marth main who salivates at the idea of getting a raw knee on Samus.
Full tier list sensei
there will never be a 14th faulty mechanic (hax confirmed it in a stream yesterday)
The better and more technical the players become, the further down the tier list Puff will slide.
He has spoken.
W video, as always
how falcon has risen
Hell yeah brother
S and A are all the characters that have won majors!
People underrating Samus is criminal. She goes 45-55 with Fox and 50-50 with Marth and Falco. Any character that can contest with those 3 are better then DK who can get lamed out. even if DKs punish game is probably on par with Captain Falcon. If you can't win neutral it doesn't matter.
I think DK has a superior punish game to Falcon, and he gets excellent combos and kill confirms against floaty characters too. with uncle punch dk doesnt have to get lamed out. people also dont consider how much UCF has impacted DK. he needs to have back facing, and in the past he couldnt consistently dashback, but now he can. it's a huge change.
Hax$ my guy you need an audio doctor immediately
Falcon in S is something
i love rock paper scissors
Its basically a rock paper scissors with shiek fox marth. Marth beats fox beats shiek beats marth.
You were 8 months clean but here we are
Mew2king tier list
I don't think Sheik being 3rd place is that crazy tbh, makes sense to me.
Jmook makes the character look ridiculous. 👌
I really dont understand the luigi argument because his recovery is horrible. But I don't have the most experience
weak recovery but has a decent punish game, as well as a chain grab on fox and falco
I guess I dont get it because doc for example has a way better punish game, more chain grabs, and a pretty long wavedash, all with a way better recovery. I would really like to hear hax's thoughts on doc
i get hax’s point abt sheik but he doesn’t really talk about mu’s against ICs and puff. also not too sure about falco puff being even??? imo it’s falco favoured (even tho my opinion is not very well informed)
Hard agree. I don't think sheik should be above Falco
puff beats falco 100% lmfao. If why else would mang0, even in his era of solo falco, only use fox for hbox, bro was doing falco dittos in 2018 and using falco for marth, but used fox for Jigglypuff
@@SRM13 mb u rite
@@SRM13Because Fox is even better against puff
Let’s gooooo
My friend, you need a new mic, but good list.
What about DK ?!?!?
pikachu has a better matchup against marth than fox right?
Mew2King was right all along
who is stronger vs Marth, Fox or Falco?
Fox
YES! Completely agree with Sheik as number 3. Sheik is similar to Marth in a lot of ways. Everything else is spot on. Optimal tier-list.
My only comment is you buggin putting Shiek above Falco.
where's the full tier list though? where's the roy?
God damn he is back with a tierlist 😂
FINAL
where's mr game and watch
where is DK?
Falcon will always be A
i have always loved your videos and contributions to the community, and i always will. stay strong, you will make it through this era of melee man, please don’t give up, ur too cracked at all of it 🫡
people will seriously look back and ask why we didn’t adopt 1.03 sooner
wheres donkey kong?
x1.75 activated. Let's hear it.
God bless everyone her ✝🙏❤🥰😊☺, Cool and chill vid 😎❤👍
wheres doc
hax i love you but please get a better mic
Game & Watch = S tier
UPDATE CHROME
WHERES MONKE
Damn peach is weak now
As people learn to play the game better and not just hold down she gets less and less viable IMO. She's ONLY High Tier cuz of D-Smash and that move stops being as good once you learn to Amsa tech and not CC it.
You can catch turnips and camp her our, she's too slow to even tech chase in most situations yet alone actually run in on anyone and it's not like she actually has good options for approaching.
I might be wrong but it just doesn’t seem right to me considering dual mains in this. I just wanna know what the character itself is capable of. Sure sheik’s marth matchup gives more incentive to play, but for consistency I’ll take the 50/50s from falco.
Falco is trash imo puff should be above him.
Fix mic
Sheik 3rd is so correct
I tuink there should be more levels to this
Fox, Marth
Sheik, Falco, Puff
Yoshi, Peach, Falcon
Icies, Pikachu, Samus, Luigi
Falco s is wild.... hes too far aheadd of the currve. Fr the elon musk of melee.
Ninth
game has been out for 22 years, the tier list does not change!!!!!!
4th
First
Like fox.
do you thinkl puff beats sheik
Where is hitler ?
SS tier
@@piskooooogood one, i did nazi that one coming