The Successes and Failures of Fighting Game New Generations
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
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0:00:00 - Introduction
0:00:22 - Tekken 3
0:03:51 - Street Fighter III
0:07:06 - Garou: Mark of the Wolves
0:09:30 - SoulCalibur V
0:13:57 - Mortal Kombat X
0:18:53 - Conclusion
#StreetFighter6 #Tekken3 #SoulCalibur6 - Ігри
A lot of people are bringing up KOF. That's like MK switching out protagonists in the Midway era. There's no substantial gap in time or change in the roster.
And why do people think I said KOF and Fatal Fury are in the same timeline? I didn't. Stop making things up and correcting them.
still, at the very least, kof has laid the groundwork for what i believe will be a successful new generation story down the line, between having a new protagonist every few games and having various mainstays start to take on new roles in the story, like how benimaru is a retainer/trainer for shun'ei and meitenkun. if kof wanted to do a new generation jump, i'd say it could be good.
But there's still a generation-like transition. K' is basically Kyo's son because he's created with Kyo's DNA, and Ash rips his powers from the protagonists, eliminating one from the game while deeply altering another's whole fighting style. Moreover, the type of game KoF is changes each time, going from a conventional 2D fighter to an assist fighter with the introduction of K', and then to a tag fighter with the introduction of Ash. The roster has some reliable standbys that never change, but only 8 characters have been in every KoF out of over 100 characters total. It doesn't have huge time jumps, but that's because they found ways to create successor characters without aging up a previously non-existent child 18 years.
@@maninredhelm K' dash is nowhere near like Kyo's son. He was kidnapped as a child and had Kyo's DNA spliced into him. Saying he's like Kyo's son is crazy
The closest thing we get is Shingo but he doesn’t really fit the bill here
KOF changes its protagonist every 3 canon games, but not alot of time has passed since KOF 94 in-universe.
The Joker being more of an MK character than Takeda line Legitimately made me laugh out loud
I screamed too😂
Massive spoilers for mk1 but takeda got leaked to be in it
@Cheesy Kebs There is absolutely no reason to believe any of the leaks until about half of the characters from a certain one get confirmed. Netherrealm has a pretty bad history of its rosters getting leaked but for every accurate one there are 100 fakes.
@@cheesykebs708 As playable or NPC?
@@lekhaclam87playable
An important thing to note about Jin Kazama is that he has a unique moveset since Tekken 4 that separates him from Kazuya and Heihachi. In the lore, he dropped the Mishima karate because he hates his family so much.
In a gameplay perspective, this also gives back Kazuya's moveset to him upon his revival in the story.
The failure that was Street Fighter vs Tekken still hurts me to this day. How can that have failed?! Ryu's Demon Ryu was similar to Jin's Devil Gene and they could have been a great team up against Akuma and Heihachi.
That by itself sounds like a great sell...it hurts being a fan of both 😢
Gems, useless pandora mechanic, time out, game breaking glitch, dlc in cd, what did you expect?
If you ever feel sad about this, just remember that MK vs DC also exists.
@@xristaka8199 At least they made MK vs DC backward compatible on Xbox. They didn't even bother with SFvTK.
SF V Tekken's biggest issues were the gem system and the fact that it's a tag-fighter where the match ends after one of four fighters gets KO'd. It alienated both fanbases by introducing a million new mechanics which don't feel super close to either.
The best team-up opportunity was Akuma with a kuma.
Takeda was actually my favorite of the four in MkX. The whips and connection to both Kenshi and Scorpion (the chars I played most in 9)was just amazing
He was the favorite of the MK new gen for a LOT of people, which makes it all the more baffling why he wasn't included even as DLC for MK11 and instead they (NRS) opted to bring back the least popular of the four. I won't say anything more on that matter, lest I bait some weird people into replying.
@@Ramk0core I think you can say it here, basically everyone agrees Jacqui Briggs is boring and only worked as a character with Takeda, making it reaaly weird why Takeda wasn’t put in MK11
@@Ramk0core Cassie AND Jacqui though, two from MKX. I miss Kung Jin...
Pretty sure he's most people's favorite, I only appreciate Cassie, feel bad for Jacqui (her introduction character design was a fatal blow pretty much) and like jin cus we're both gay 😂
yes he's was the best, then Cassie and Jaqui Kung was a recycle of Green arrow so bad
Tekken 3 is the most successful "next generation" ever. No one else comes close. Eddy and Hwoarang alone featured flashy and button-mash-friendly movesets that pulled attention from across the arcade. I heard lots of "woahs" and "wows" back in the day for that title. As much as I personally love SF3's new generation, it definitely did not elicit that reaction.
I think something that really benefited Tekken 3 was that the developers made sure the game could be ported to the original PlayStation without making too much sacrifices and also adding extra content. Street Fighter III and its updated versions couldn't have run on the PSOne due to the amount of sprite graphics the game had, the PSOne even had trouble running ports of Neo-Geo and CPS-2 games
@@pablocasas5906 Good point! The only home console releases for SF3 were on the Dreamcast, which was never a blockbuster console.
@AaronRoberto Interesting point, but 7's success was based on its gradual iteration and refining of gameplay systems, not its selection of new characters.
Honestly, I haven't met many people who like T7's new characters. And I say that as someone who mained Gigas for the first few years. Several T7 newcomers were meant to be "function replacements" for legacy characters and failed to do so.
That said, I won't be upset if any T7 characters make it into 8. (I doubt that either of my favorites, Gigas or Kazumi, will make the cut though)
Explains a lot “button mash friendly” y’all need to learn games takes skill and precision learn to link combos and special
I'm talking about how a game from the 90's appealed to kids. Nobody is saying that mashing is the way to go then or now, just that Eddy and Hwoarang's designs made it easy for anyone to do cool moves even if they didn't know the commands.@@Abusaccoh2004
I never actually thought of it but yeah...Joker has shown up more in MK games than Kenshi's son, Scorpion's protege, Jacqui's fiance, Jax's son in law and one of the main Special Forces group. How does a guest character get more love than an integral and important one...Nether Realm just fucks up on all angles.
Because half of the hype of MK games now comes from guest characters. The other half nostalgia bait.
NRS care more about making money with guest character DLC than making (and keeping) new characters to progress the storyline.
NRS has always had a problem with these pointless guest characters.
Takeda was by far the coolest and most relevant successor character they announced for X. I thought that game just had shitty writing in general but I hated that he (along w/ basically everyone else) took a back seat to the Cage family and their out-of-nowhere ultra prophecy god powers.
Then he just gets dropped from 11. I liked Cassie and Jacqui more in 11 but it sucks that Takeda didn't get the same treatment.
none of the things you mentioned make Takeda integral, that's why. None of the Kombat Kids have their goals and motivations explored in the story, if they even had any, and that's why they mostly flopped
The best way to do a next generation story, is by giving a balance between the old and new characters, keeping the focus on the new characters and showing they stepping up and becoming the main heroes, but also giving moments for the old character to shine and help them in their journey, like Tobey and Andrew Spider Men in Spider Man NHW or the MMPR in Power Rangers special Once and Always.
MGS2 did this well too
The best example of this is infact Tekken. Although I got into Tekken 4 which is how i discovered Jin when I unlocked him and became my favorite character, I later realized he is a "next generation" kind of character after Kazuya. Kazuya is badass to me but his evil persona stopped him from being a favorite of mine, which is where Jin came in.
But even if he was good, regardless his presence is HEAVILY relevant in the story with every game. Not set aside, not forgotten, or made to be a shadow of his former self. Kazuya and Jin both grow in different ways and interact head to head. Which i prefer to any of the "new generation" where they try so hard to make the new characters look great and the legacy just immediately near unimportant and weak.
@@UnifiedEntity True, plus fits the whole point of franchise being about a family, with the legacy being pass on to the next generation. Just like we can't have Kazuya without Heihachi we can't have Jin without Kazuya. One generation is important to the other.
American Power Rangers is crap overall. Super Sentai does it much better. Every new season, there is a new cast with new faces. They don't continue off the old season because they like to end it and start new. Only Kamen Rider Black had a sequel to its first season because of how popular it got back in the 80s.
Today, you can't really have anymore new generation characters to take over. Like i said, its been 22 years since Jin's debut in Tekken 3 that no one else has replaced him. Because its pointless to have anyone else replace him since he is an established character. And today, people care more about a character's move sets rather than their storylines.
@@dangermanv6133 If you think a new season with different cast is some only Sentai does, I guess you haven't watched any PR season post- In Space.
Also even Super Sentai have special that bring original characters back for new adventure to celebrate their anniversary. Power Rangers can do the same
I kinda feel like SFIII's bold choice made more sense in the arcade era: when sfii and Alpha cabinets were everywhere and SFIII was going to sit side by side with them, I think the creators didn't want for the game to feel like just another SFII iteration and yes, kinda like a whole different series.
It originally was supposed to be a different series. It was going to a new game not related to Street Fighter, but somewhere during development the higher-ups decided to make it SFIII. That's why the very early test versions of the game had no returning characters.
That was a general mindset around the mid 90s for all big fgs: the struggle to make a good sequel roster that doesn't depend too much on the whole veteran team.
If you pay attention: SF Alpha 1 (95) removed some SF2 chars to bring SF1 and Final Fight chars. MK3 (95) removed some veterans (notably Scorpion, that was very controversial). Fatal Fury 3 (95) removed some veterans to give room for a newcomer cast. Samurai Shodown 3 (95) removed some veterans to give room for a newcomer cast. And though this is a little different case but I'll include it: KOF 94, that is a SNK crossover, didn't include many veterans from FF and AOF to give room for many newcomers. I'm including because it shows the same sudden intent of bringing new faces, even if it's a new series debut. Strange coincidence of time isn't it?
And now another coincidence but that isn't strange or unexpected: SFA1 was criticized and brought back more veterans like Zangief in SFA2. MK3 was heavily criticized and brought back Scorpion and more veterans in UMK3. Fatal Fury 3 was criticized and brought back veterans like Kim in the next game RBFF1. Samurai Shodown 3 was criticized and brought back veterans like Charlotte in SS4.
Now KOF wasn't so criticized for not adding more SNK veterans but in that case It's because it's a new series. And it was such a big success that people became used to the "SNK crossover that is starting to add more original chars than actual old SNK chars". Probably because the geniuses at SNK at the time were creating great new chars every sequel: Rugal, Iori, Leona, Mature, Vice, Shermie, Yashiro, etc...
I think they forgot that for a lot of casual fans, the updates to Street Fighter 2 and Alpha were basically padding until they get to Street Fighter 3. "Enough updates and spin-offs. Where's Street Fighter 3?" Was a sentiment that was more common than you'd think. The power of a simple number is huge for more casual fans.
but all people wanted was the old cast with new characters, not that bunch of weirdos , which is what ssf4 did, and sf 5 didn't
@@Zontar82 Well guess what, they got exactly that with each new release of SFII and Alpha and they complained about it being the same thing over and over
Can't believe you forgot to mention Darth Vader from Soul Calibur's replacement Rey Skywalker XD
We don’t talk about that one
Rey is, indeed, the villain of new Star Wars.
@@The4thSnake yes
Ah yes, the Mar-Rey Sue 🤣
You mean rei Palatine
21:02 Really felt this with Marshall Law. He's literally having that same goal for 4 games at this point, nearly 15 years in our real world
This! I really think they missed the boat in introducing Marshall again for 8. Just give us Forest, heck Marshall doesn't even look the same as he did in 7.
@@benbelap Yeah, I feel Forest should come back in the long run too! He can still use a lot of Marshall's moves, *_BUT_* he can also have some of his own techniques from his own training as well as influences from Paul, since Paul's like an uncle to him.
It seems that's the main problem in a lot of fighting game characters. Since fighting games aren't your usual story driven games, you can't necessarily remove a character from the story after they complete an arc, meaning a lot of companies will simply NOT wrote an arc for them. The character are there because they always have been there.
It reminded me of pre-reboot Sonya Blade and Jax. For 8 straight games the only thing they did in the story was enter the tournament to find/rescue the other. It got so obnoxious even in MK9 Shang Tsung jokes about it.
Rock Howard is definitely my favorite fighting game character ever, since his debut in Garou. What can be better than a mix of Terry and Geese? Amazing moveset, crazy cool design, cool story, animations are out of this world. Then CVS2 came and he was there, and I waited for years and years for his debut on a mainline KOF and it finally happened in XIV, and I was so freaking happy. Then XV came and I had to main him again, and still do to this day, and it was crazy to see him actually be crazy good this time. And now I'm eagerly waiting for Garou 2 to see how his story goes!
I don't usually get super hyped for fighting game stories, but I can't wait to see where Rock's story goes in City of the Wolves. I hope they don't disappoint on that front.
Ok Max!
Tekken 3 is not just a good reboot, it is a landmark achievement in gaming history. It was the first super popular 3D fighter to actually have 3D mechanics and movement, it was big in arcades and on Playstation, it appealed to casual and hardcore players, and it was the first fighting game to have a sleek modern aesthetic that didn't just rip off classic martial arts movies. Those 8 million copies are worth their weight in gold
Man It swallowed many of my coins.And It was worth it.
Uhh that's not true. VF3 came out in 1996 and had 3-D movement. And VF was super popular at the time.
Several games had 3D movement before Tekken 3. (Soul Edge, Toshinden, specific characters in VF2 & even Tekken 2, and as mentioned, VF3). Not arguing that it isn’t a classic, it is, but that point is incorrect
@@orlanzo2621 ...super popular in Japan, like all the old VFs. VF3 bombed in much of the rest of the world because of the extreme delay of the console release.
@@skunkface_ In arcades it was a huge hit tho man, and that's worldwide. VF3 was a marvel when it came out. People were wowed by the graphics and animations that were ahead of anything else out at the time. Yea the Dreamcast release wasn't as successful, but that's only because it came out years later.
Patroklos has got to be one of the most hated "successor" characters in all of fighting games. I've seen very few people who admit to being fans of him.
Tbf, he was poorly written and overall the game's story was rushed. The little bit we've seen from his screen time did show he is selfish and evil but blinded into thinking what he's doing is good. Maybe the SC5 roster will have better writing like SC6 characters did, especially the DLC
to be fair except the new new characters every replacement was embarassing
I feel sorry for Pyrrha, I would like to see her back and given a second chance. She deserves a story where she is struggling to follow her mother footsteps.
The fact that pat and pyrrha get 2nd fighting styles revolving around them... was a hell of an investment... I rather would like Bangoo to be a character too...
@@Ninjaswithipods Bangoo would be so hype and a long awaited payoff for Rock
@@sladevalen2120 Maaan i would love to see Bangoo as well also its Rock (Not Howard) considering the thumbnail shows Rock Howard
No please dont, that twins story is totally shit, SCV is the cause of this series downfall
And i agree Poor Pyrrha!
Even though Street Fighter 6 isn’t trying to be a complete new generation, it’s doing a lot of things right when it comes to introducing its new characters. Jamie has clear links to Yun and Yang, Kimberly with Guy, Lily with T.Hawk, and JP may have ties to M.Bison if he uses psycho power (I don’t think that is confirmed yet though). They even made the bold move of introducing Luke as the last dlc character of SF5, making the new games protagonist recognisable by being in the old one.
Plus Luke shares alot of similarities to ryu and ken. Dude just wants to have fun and fight.
Lore-wise, JP was once a member of Shadaloo (M.Bison organization) as a financier.
For Luke, I think one of the reasons on why he has a smoother transition as the new protagonist is because Capcom introduced him in SFV through DLCs. Many people had eyes on him due to how Capcom made his appearance a big deal, such as being the last DLC character, an entirely new character, and essentially a "demo" of SFVI. So when SFVI was teased, people already knew who Luke is, and weren't surprised that he is now the protagonist. People were eased into acknowledging him rather than Luke appearing out of nowhere to steal the spotlight. It also helps that he has a pleasing design compared to his default SFV appearance, which is a plus for people.
Yes, I remember how he was officially the segue to 6.
I don't know. Still wondering how he got the mantle of protagonist considering he's a newbie
Granted he has probably the biggest shoes in Capcom to fill so 99.9% there would be on the same spot as him right now
@@GarkKahn Well welcome to the feeling of watching the newer Mortal Kombat trailer for the first time
if luke fails they can just go back to Ryu. As it is now, Luke is just a guide for world tour mode in sf6. No real importance as that role could have been any of the heroes.
Don't know. I personally prefer calm & collected protagonist than loud attitude.
Surprised how little mention there is of KOF, where basically every new story arc is a mini-new generation. Though I guess measuring a sense of success and failure is always weird in KOF.
Because KOF does not feature the same concept of new generation. It's different arcs with different protagonists. Different thing. If you know the anime Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, that's what KOF does but without the long time skips between each story of JJBA.
It's weird with KoF because:
a) The company went bankrupt TWICE during each arc after the Orochi Saga, thus making it hard to say how much putting a "new gen" played into that.
b) The older generations always get to stick around. (If not in the first game, then definitely in the second game of each saga.)
c) The story being fairly underwhelming in every KoF entry after the Orochi Saga. (NESTS Saga was cut and scrapped together after bankruptcy, and the Ash Saga had Ash, which people REALLY HATED. lol)
If I had to give my personal opinion on each "successor" to Kyo, I'd say:
• K' is great and the best of the "successors".
• Ash is very unique and has very interesting gameplay, but his personality is insufferable.
• Shun'ei looks awful, has a fairly uninteresting personality, but his gameplay is surprisingly fun and his storyline is genuinely interesting. Depending on what KoF XVI does, I could see him reach a similar spot to K'.
@@BknMoonStudios KOFs take on "new gen" I feel are characters that seemlessly blend in the cast for the most part. They vary in age and purpose in different pieces of established and new story. For the most part, its not "younger newer face" that tries to upstage the older cast kind of move (thank god).
@@BknMoonStudios Shun'ei feels like a JRPG character with no JRPG to express the details of his personality. He's like what Squall and Cloud would come across if you only ever knew them through Dissidia.
I think people are more welcoming to the idea of new main characters in the KoF series because the series itself began as a crossover fighter of SNK characters, in '94 you had characters from Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, Psycho Soldier, Ikari Warriors, plus original characters created for the game like Kyo, Benimaru, Daimon and the Sports Team. But then the game became kinda like an anime, with separate story arcs, when Kyo and Iori's story ended then it was K''s turn and then Ash
I think if Frost & Kai was added to the new gen in MKX would have been an awesome fit & much needed dynamic to the team. Frost learning to be a patient leader in the clan & Kai looking to redeem his master name & legacy
In regards to your comment about Bison and Shadaloo's absence in SF3;
They're absent because for all intents and purposes, Bison and Shadaloo were both DONE after SF2. Yes, 2 was indeed the game where Bison lost and everyone moved on with their lives, that's what the endings in 2 are all about. 3 was just continuing on from that while establishing a new peaceful world free from Bison's grip and introducing a new era of fighters to go with it.
The blaming of 3 for 'skipping over' Bison's death and Shadaloo's dissolution is a retroactive one that I really don't get the reason for. 3 was operating under the basis that Bison died at the end of 2, which he did. The game you should be blaming is SF4, which brought back Bison and ended up forcing SF5 to get us to the Bison-free world we had in 3. The whole thing was utterly pointless and led us to get two boringly safe games that tip-toed around a subject matter that had already been solved decades ago and fix a problem that didn't exist prior to 4.
Thankfully 6 is trying something new
Speaking facts
Yeah I'm surprised he didn't realize that. Bision and Shadaloo weren't coming back in 3. Kind of hard to make that a complaint when it's something that couldn't happen. If they did shoehorn bison into 3 people would have just complained how he just magically came back despite him being dead for good lol
Hell, we SAW Bison getting killed by Akuma.
@@bluebirdsigma I mean he got better. but then he died again
Garou Mark of the Wolves is by far my favorite new generation style story. Rock Howard is the character Jin Kazama wishes he was.
8:41 glad you see it my way Snake
GMOW was just an Awesome Game. Everyone was awesome to play.
Yeah I just wish Jin was less bland. He feels so uninteresting compared to literally every other mishima
@joedatius He's very edgy and tries to hard to give off a mysterious vibe I guess he appealed to young teen boys at the time who thought that was cool lol
@@Black_Aces rock on the other hand is genuinely cool and he’s not trying very hard to be imo
I'm here to see everyone out themselves
Some things about Rock and the KOF timeline:
- KOF is its own timeline, with sorta mixed events from the early Art of Fighting and Fatal Fury games in the backstory (those 2 series normally would be around a decade apart otherwise, and Garou a decade more).
- Young Rock was around during 2001 as a cameo. He fits in, albeit with a MASSIVE growth spurt.
- Time works weird in this franchise in general. Kyo would be in his mid 30s if the tournament was annual, like it says, but he's still in his early-mid 20s.
- Rock has dialogue in 15 that states that Geese abandoned his mother in this timeline instead of just dying.
- Finally, Rock has a purple aura (Terry has red, Geese has blue)
Yeah but recent Kof games have retconed all of their universes into Kof continuity.
Also on the subject of new generations, KoF did this 4 times already with K', Ash, and Shun'ei, as well as Kula/Krohnen, Elisabeth, and Isla, deriving away from the duo Kyo/Iori in the process. It wasn't bad per se, but it has the same goods and bads as generational stereotypes:
Kyo, K', Ash and a bit of Shun's power depicts fire in some way, giving senses of familiarity, aswell as the KoF standard's "I will introduce the protag then the rival next game" with Iori, Kula, Elisabeth, and Isla, having some gimmick depending on the generation (e.g. stained mythical flame vs pure flame, fire vs ice, candlewax fire vs light, and different types of amped specters)
And the bad being, why bother introducing the new gen when there's literally the old familiar generation to work with (especially Shun/Isla)
@@milosmisic89 not really, they only followed the Verse's thing that revived some of the dead characters like Orochi team or Ash
The story in Soul Calibur V was so confusing to me. I knew Patroklos and Pyrra were Sophitia's children, as they had been established in previous games, but every time they introduced another character, the same question kept popping into my mind: "Who's that?"
SCV was rushed out the door. Apparently Story Mode was just 20% completed!
I lost track of SC after 3. The only thing that keeps me interested in is how cool some characters look.
it's fine story was shit and no one really got it. series should have stopped at 3
@@binyot5505 3 was where it should have ended
@@Zontar82 No.
KOF is maybe weirdest case. Kyo was first protagonist (or in some extend Terry was in first game) in Rugal and Orochi saga then they pulled SFIII and K' became new protagonist but they didn't ditched Kyo and Iori, after NEST saga Ash became new protagonist but the keep Kyo, Iori and K', now Shun'ei is new protagonist and game still has all previous protagonists. Maybe that's the best way keeping all and using new ideas.
Samurai Shodown also changes its protagonist every 2 games or so (including President Andrew Jackson)
It's not the same thing. Those are just different story arcs that have different protagonist, not the new generation concept.
Do you know the anime Jojo's Bizarre Adventure? If you know it, then things will make sense easier. That's what KOF does, to put it simply.
Eventually KOF isn't going to have room for anything but the Hero and Ex-Hero teams...
@@carlosaugusto9821 It's correct and incorrect. Correct, they are new story arcs. Incorrect every new protagonist younger than previous one, in a way they pass the torch to new protagonist. Of course, age is not exist in KOF series but every tournament should take place in certain year. It's similar aproch of SF III, I think K' is better successor of Kyo compared Ryu's Alex.
Shunei is boooring
And Ash was annoying af
Man, it sucks they axed Takeda in 11. He was actually my favorite from the next gen cast in terms of aesthetic and playstyle.
Great video! You did a very in depth look into how to write next generation stories that didn't lean into just hating or loving games blindly.
Takeda can be seen in the characters trailers hes back😁
It is fascinating that Tekken 3, despite being the most revered entry has no retro-gamer base, while SF3 (as the pinnacle of SF's 2D era) has had a complete revision of its reception.
Behold, I am Yoshimitsu the Second.
Man I remember playing Mark of the Wolves many times. The details on this game are still insane to this day.
Oh I just LOVE how you gave praise to DOA's story with Elliot. I honestly don't hear enough praise for the Dead or Alive story as I would like, with DOA5 doing such a great job with the overall story of the series. Great video!
dead or alive dimensions has pretty decent story too,doa 5 has some great twists in fighting games as well, and opening of doa 2 is still among the best of fighting games, so yeah doa is so underrated
And then 6 came around and crashed and burned on so many levels 😂
I remember picking DOA 5 for the VF guest characters but falling in love with Helena, Elliot, the drunk guy and Hitomi. Decided to give DoA6 a chance but damn that game felt barebones. I think it's no longer being supported even with DLC costumes
I've never cared for _Dead or Alive_ in the sense of being at best indifferent to it, but every time that 4thSnake has brought up Gen-fu's story, it's been surprisingly heartwarming. His storyline is also surprising in that it would definitely be the type of things all other fighting games would screw up story-wise.
@@MusicoftheDamned and it honestly isn't that complex of a story compared to say an RPG.
Simple goal, excuted cleanly and leaves space for a new character to take his place in an organic manner. Yet somehow it seems every fighting game tries to pull the generational shift/jump with half its roster with lukewarm results most of the time rather than the more methodical and gradual approach. As you say it's baffling how they manage to screw character arcs most of the time 😂
@@mafiousbj Yeah, it should be simple in a lot of cases, but it feels like in most cases fighting games screw it up, often to momunetal degrees and even with non-generational character. Sometimes it's due to having their hands tied to character popularity, with the most grating example of this easily being how Yoshimitsu will *never* be able to get revenge against that unrepentant asshole Bryan Fury just because Bryan Fury is a rather popular character too. This even though that's basically the only would-be goal of Yoshimitsu for like five games, especially now that Kunimitsu I has been replaced by Kunimitsu II due to Namco hating women over 40.
There's some completely baffling about basic screw-ups in (fighting game) stories sometimes for character both new and old even when the story is passable...-ish. _SFV_ has two prime examples of this with veteran characters Chun-li and Guile somehow getting usurped by Ryu when it comes to defeating Bison (through borderline deus ex machina) while also having supposedly incredibly dangerous new threat Necalli being reduced to an overhyped loser who never wins an important fight to point that he feels like an NRS jobber.
Sigh. I know writing isn't easy, but I still don't understand what's so damn hard about letting at least half of the roster in a fighting game with a story have some type of satisfactory arc or significant involvement at this point. It just feels most fighting games maybe favor like at most half a dozen characters (repeatedly) story-wise with the other characters ever _maybe_ getting crumbs, if that.
This is actually really helpful since I wanted to make a mock up next generation Blazblue roster that takes place after Central Fiction, so thanks. I also think there is one other example but not really a full on next generation roster but a next generaton character, Sin from Guilty Gear, being the son of Ky and Dizzy but is taken care of by Sol for the majority of his life (I guess in a way, Sol is his real father though Dizzy is his daughter so… grandpa…). His character does make consistent appearances after his debut game, Guilty Gear 2 Overture but is mostly relegated to DLC in Xrd SIGN and Strive, pretty much serving as a side character rather then a main character. I think even Ramlethal is much more important in terms of "New Generation" fighters in Guilty Gear then the character with clear connetions to the two main rivals of the series. But I will give points to Sin when it comes to move set as he seem to adopt some of both Ky and Sol's moves in his repertoire. Do I think he is a success? Well, that's complicated. Yes, I know I have been mostly saying some seemingly negative things about Sin but really, I think he is a pretty cool character with a lot of potental in the future, and considering that Sol's story ended in Strive, and the extra story seems to be some test pilot for the more "next Generation characters" being a main focus, I feel like if they make a new Guilty Gear years from now, I think they should fully pull the trigger on the "New Generation" with the roster and commit on Sin and Ramlethal being the new main characters.
Next generations of Blazblue roster?
You're wrong about Sin and Sol... Sol is grandpa, because he is literally he is. The guy never pay child support during his life since his daughter (others kinda-daughters) born in this world
@@theboihilbirt1277 true.
@@sayki3002 after the events of Central Fiction, we had Ragna isekied out of the canon and in the ending of the game, we see a “where are they now” kind of endings where we see Carl potentially being built up on being a new villain or antagonist, Platinum being in the care of Litchi, the NOL with Homura as the imperator instead of Izanami, and much more stuff, and in Alternate Dark War, it does propose some ideas like Iinhua as a successor to Litchi and Nu-13 adopting a new identity, Juusan. Not sure if Naoto, Juusan, or Ciel should be the new main character for this new fighting game (I personally would say Juusan) but I think all of these can make for a good set up for a fresh roster.
Also, the existence of Sin forces Sol and Ky to come to the realization that they're family now, which led to one of the most hilarious scenes in Guilty Gear History (aka the shouting match aboard the ship)
I mean as far as the release of SF3 goes, I'm pretty sure that the lore was essentially that Bison was defeated in SF2 and Shadaloo crumbled.
SF4 kinda """retconned"" it into the organization lasting longer up until we see what happens in SF5
*FUN FACT:* The US port of Garou lists it as _Fatal Fury: Mark of the Wolves_ on the spine.
This was real fun. Will you do a video on Street Fighter EX on how it failed/succeeded?
Inside Garou's files some dataminers found graphics for an alternative English title that simply read "Fatal Fury: Mark of the Wolves". Don't know why SNK went with the Japanese name for all regions, we'll see if the next game will have Garou or Fatal Fury branding.
And just for trivia, the original FF was supposed to be called Real Bout internationally, in fact the words Real Bout are featured in the background of many stages, SNK later used the name Real Bout for the game that came after Fatal Fury 3
The EX series is underrated and overlooked.
The US Dreamcast port was retitled: Fatal Fury: Mark of the Wolves. That means if you just finished playing Fatal Fury 3 and ignore the non-canon reboot spinoffs entry, the Real Bout series, then Mark of the Wolves is indeed the 4th canonical main entry in the FF series.
@@VOAN isn't the first Real Bout game canon? I mean, the intro movie in Mark of the Wolves shows Geese falling from his office building from that game, with Terry trying to save him but Geese rejects Terry's help. In the end credits from Real Bout for Terry's story his is shown taking care of Rock
Garou MOTW actually had a sequel well into development when the studio closed. It was a sad time to have two of the best 2D fighters ever come out and land with a thud.
I've seen the sprite-sheet that featured many of the new characters that would've appeared and there's also a supposed screenshot of the game featuring Marco Rodrigues fighting Ryo Sakazaki, who would've been appearing as Mr. Karate II. I can imagine MotW 2 was too complex due to its character animations compared to other Neo-Geo games that came during the early 2000s like SvC: Chaos, KoF '03 and Samurai Shodown V so that'd why SNK scrapped it and sadly deleted all of the files. Hope that the new Fatal Fury that is in developing can bring back all of the ideas they had for the Neo-Geo game
Quick mention on Rock. While he is visually very similar to Terry, his moveset is either directly ripped from Geese, heavily inspired by Geese, or is Terry's Rising Tackle. He uses Geese's single and double projectile, has a variant of Geese's shoulder tackle, has counters similar to Geese, has Geese's Raging Storm and Deadly Rave supers, and has a charging super (Shine Knuckle) that is more like a super version of his Geese tackle than any of Terry's moves or supers. Even many of his normals and grounded throw are ripped from Geese, though he has a few Terry-inspired normal attacks.
Which never made sense to me, because Rock was never trained or met Geese. So lore-wise he shouldn't possess techniques like raging storm, deadly rave neo, repukken, etc. Geese nor his mother had red eyes either, so where did that come from? Its also implied that he inherited some evil bloodline power ala Naruto from Geese that he struggles to control. Which again was never bought up with Geese. GW was just an evil man that trained under the same master as Terry, but there was nothing magical about his genetics. Rock Howard just feels like fanfiction ironically enough when you think about it. Given all this random shit so he can feel 'angst'.
@@Ergeniz Basically everything from Fatal Fury and KoF that are praised heavily, end up actually being fanfiction level shit.
Three random ass teenagers(?) beat a legendary snake that, for some reason, is a god/divine entity.
Super rich/resourceful and strong guy who absolutely shredded one of the teenager's dad is somehow beaten by the less experienced son.
Although one correction, Rock's mom DOES seem to have red eyed in her portrait in Garou. She was never seen or visually depicted anywhere else.
If you're going to do new characters as a function, with identical movesets, there's very little reason not to just include the original character as a costume option.
Except that it points way too much attention to the fact the new character is just a carbon copy of the old one that we had more of an attachment to.
I like watching videos by people which are well informed and have a calm voice and type. Great video and very interesting!
Very interesting video! I haven't been into fighting games as much as I used to be. But with so many new comers and videos like this, I might have to make a change.
I was today years old when i discovered that Jin is Kazuya's son
What? Bro they look the same
@@schemar17 Well you see, i have the perception skills of a koala so there's that
The entire Tekken storyline revolves around them being Father and Son how did you miss that 😅
Wait what for real?
When I was younger I thought Kazuya was Jin's younger brother 😅
I really liked Takeda and Kung Jin, I hope they aren't gone forever
Wow this video made great numbers snake. Rightfully so it’s fantastic work!
This video will be a classic for sure.
Thanks 4th Snake.
I haven't played Tekken, but I appreciate that Jin has gloves simmiliar to Star Platinum
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure's inflences can be seen in many other fighting games, Benimaru from The King of Fighters it's just Jean Pierre Polnareff, Paul Phoenix's hairstyle also looks like Polnareff's , Terry's win pose in Mark of the Wolves is similar to Jotaro's winning pose from Heritage from the Future, one of Leona's attack is called Heart Attack like Kira Yoshikage's Sheer Heart Attack. Rose from Street Fighter Alpha is identical to Lisa Lisa,
Aside from Jojo, I find that there's plenty of fighting games reference Baki the Grappler a lot, Capcom said that Akuma was partially based on Yujiro Hanma and SNK said some aspects of Iori's personality are based on Yujiro's as well
This video made me want to play Tekken 3 again so badly.
Some commenters asked about KOF but they are mistaking the way the series work. KOF isn't an example of next generation concept, it simply refreshes the roster (including a change of protagonist) after a set of games that conclude a story arc. But without any implication on generations or even a relevant time skip (after all most of the games were set in an yearly time basis). So it doesn't count as next generation.
Only Garou MOTW is a case of next generation in all major SNK games.
Garou was the perfect recipe to a next do a new generation perfectly
New charismatic characters many of them with huge connections to the old ones
KOF still using more of the old Fatal Fury roster so you never really mis any of them
An story that follows the old one but in diferent setting
Still have the most representative thing of the series (Terry) still active in the plot of the series
I like how in MotW you have characters like Hokutomaru who, due to him being a student of the Shiranui style, has a mix of Andy and Mai's abilities; Marco/Kushnood plays just like his teacher Ryo Sakazaki, Dong Hwan and Jae Hoon have some of their father's moves and for reason Freeman looks like a fusion between Iori Yagami and Benimaru Nikaido physically but he has some movements similar to those of Mature and Vice.
SNK basically confirmed that Billy Kane, Andy Bogard and Joe Higashi will appear in the new Fatal Fury alongside Terry, but I hope they can create new characters for the game as well
I always felt that Soul Caliber was a new generation to Soul Edge/Blade. Much of the iconic SC characters were new, it had a new protagonist in Kilik, and many of the classic characters were time releases.
Yeah, I guess it wasn't worthy to bring up as his thesis was about V. Still I think he should have mentioned it as an introduction to Soul series and the follow up with his thesis with V.
Yeah, same. You could say there were two evoltuions and time-skips for that series, but the in-game time-skip from SE to SC was a couple of years, so maybe didn't suit this video.
Gosh, wish they'd do SC again over Tekken 8, but with a budget...
Most of the characters from SoulEdge returned in SoulCalibur, so it doesn't rally count.
It's funny, the return of Siegfried being the protagonist is really what made me like the series a la SC3. Still my favorite Soul Caliber till this day.
I like Kilik as a character, but they just didn't really do him right like how they did it with Jin from Tekken I feel. Ironically, Jin is actually my favorite character in the Tekken series.
@@clonosfreid6658 A lot of SC characters outside of Ziegfried and Sophitia feel very static.
Love this thorough analysis. I would also add that it would be good to hint to new characters as early as possible. It's good to push background characters to the forefront but it is even better to build them up before their debut. Scenes of a current character training a student or meeting a new opponent for a future installment should be a staple in every fighting game.
What a great idea for a video, really enjoyed this - subscribed 👍🏻
Most of the SF3 characters are fan favorites now, especially Dudley, Makoto, Ibuki, Urien, Alex and Sean.
Tekken 3 was actually controversial among Tekken fans back in 1997-98 because of the lack of Kazuya. Which is why Kazuya was heavily advertised for Tag1 and Tekken 4.
But it's obviously not an outrage like the other cases. Also it helped that Jin is actually a great character, unlike some protagonists replacements in other games.
@@carlosaugusto9821 It's okay you can say Alex AND Abel
@@falconeshield Alex is cool, Abel sucks lol.
yea now but that doesn't stop that capcom still screwed up with SF3 and its roster. I mean this is why developers inside capcom had to fight for SF4 to happen. It took years for some of the SF3 cast to warm up to people. Maybe if they added some of these new faces little by little people would've been more accepting back then instead of basically throwing the entire cast in the garbage. SF6 is definitely doing a better job than SF3.
@@saloz9483 "The SF3 killed the series" myth has been debunked numerous times. Capcom Fighting Evolution was what killed SF.
SF3 would have never gotten 2 updates (the last one coming 2 years after the original) if it had no audience.
Great video!
About Jin Kazama being mostly based on Kazuya that's true but you forget one very important detail he carries from his mother: the name. He's just one letter off of "Jun Kazama" and you hear that every time you select him!
Which they completely botched that connection in T4. Honestly _that_ moveset should have been another character completely.
@@pious83 Eeeehh... It made sense in the context of Tekken 4; it's okay to prefer something else but I wouldn't say it was a mistake, it was consistent with the choices made for that game.
T4 tried to bring the series in a different direction but they then backtracked on it with T5.
After TTT had such a huge roster, with T4 they tried to give us fewer but deeper characters, with no clones so they got rid for example of Anna but added her moveset to Nina, they got rid of Armor King but added his moveset to King... Given that Jin was a substitute of Jun+Kazuya, when they brought back Kazuya it would have made it redundant to keep half of Kazuya also in Jin, so they instead replaced that part of his moveset with classic Karate, while keeping the Kazama moves he had.
However I guess people missed the larger roster so in T5 they brought back everybody, including characters that were incorporated into others, and eventually went as far as separate characters that were just alternate outfits like Kuma/Panda and Eddie/Christie... now THAT made no sense to me.
@@KombatGod No it didn't make sense within the context of the game. No one would comment on it, unless they knew what the game stated lore-wise. The pretence was flimsy, at best. The Karate move set would have been better served via a brand new character. With Jin leaning heavier into Jun's move set. Rejecting his father's heritage and fully investing in his mothers. That would have made more sense than "unlearning" a fighting style.
Bottom line, the precedent was set on what they typically do with Baek/Hwoarang, Xiaoyu/Wang, Michelle/Julia and more aptly, Asuka/Jun. Adapting a move set down two divergent paths. Jin's shared move pool wasn't anything new or original to him. That's why they botched it.
I think the greatest successes of Mortal Kombat's new generation were the Outworld characters: Kotal Kahn, Erron Black, and to a lesser extent D'vorrah. While Cassie, Kung Jin, Takeda, and Jacqui get most of the narrative focus, the actual fan reception of Kotal, Erron, and D'vorrah seemed WAY more positive then the mixed reception the Kombat Kids got: What little criticism I've seen Kotal and Erron get is just people wishing they did more cool stuff/weren't jobbers. I really think those 2 should be in the "eternally in almost every game" category that the MK1-3 cast are in: A Mesoamerican warlord and immortal cowboy are character concepts that fit the MK brand perfectly. And as somebody into Mesoamerican history, Kotal is actually somewhat well handled.
Firstly, even though the games and comics call Kotal Kahn "Buluc", a Maya war god, he's actually based on Huitzilopochtli, which is the patron deity of the Mexica. The Mexica are one of a few Nahuatl speaking ethnic groups which migrated from Northern Mexico (where they/most cultures were nomadic tribes) into Mesoamerica (which already had urban civilizations), between 1200-1300AD. The Mexica were one of the latest Nahua groups to do so, founding the city-state of Tenochtitlan in 1325. The term "Aztec" is often used to refer to the Mexica specifically, but can also refer to the Nahuas in general, or to the "Aztec Empire" as a political network. Confusingly, that included some non-Nahua states(such as some Maya, Zapotec, Mixtec, Otomi, Totonac, Huastec, etc ones) and there were also some Nahua states (such as Tlaxcala) which were outside of that Empire.
As I said, Huitzilopochtli was the Mexica patron god, mostly or entirely unique to the Mexica (at least before their military and political success spread their influence), unlike many other "Aztec" gods which were more widely worshipped in Mesoamerica before the Nahua migrations. Huitzilopochtli is often depicted with blue-green body paint, a striped face, an anahuatl pectoral ornament, a Hummingbird back or head ornament, and wielding the serpent Xiuhcoatl as a weapon. He's primarily a war deity, and in myths was born fully armed and armored and specifically asks the Mexica to do things to breed war and conflict (such as in the mythologized-historical account of the founding of Tenochtitlan, where he has them request a princess from Colhuacan as a political marriage, then has the Mexica sacrifice her instead to bring conflict with Colhuacan and to push the Mexica to be displaced to then find the island he prophesied they should found Tenochtitlan on), as well as being associated with Hummingbirds and Eagles, which the Nahuas tied to warriors.
He also has solar and fire associations: In the myth of his birth at Coatepec mountain, he slays his sister Coyolxauhqui and his brothers the Centzon Huitznauhtin, which is largerly seen as an allegory for the sun's rise over the Moon and Stars (though some dispute that association). In that myth, one of his weapons was Xiuhcoatl, ("Turquoise Serpent", though the "Xiuh" can also refer to comets, meteors, years, or reeds rather then turquoise) a snake often seen in Mesoamerican art around solar discs and heavily associated with fire (as the color turquoise was in general) and lightning. Finally Huitzilopochtli is also often tied to sacrifice more then most Mesoamerican gods... frankly, I think this may be more a modern association more then something actually historically true, but certainly the Mexica did sacrifice more people then other Mesoamerican groups (though not as much as pop culture or Spanish accounts present: Think 100s - 1000s a year, not tens/hundreds of thousands) and certainly that was in part as a result of Mexica militarism (most sacrifices were captured enemy soldiers from wars) and Huitzilopochtli was, as mentioned, a part of that.
So, Kotal actually covers quite a lot this: He has the blue-green body paint, and his snake-sickles are meant to represent Xiuhcoatl (Some MKX concept art even shows the sickles transforming into flaming snakes!), and his variations in MKX and by extension his MK11 moveset to a lesser extent revolve around War, Sun, and Blood as themes. His moveset in MKX is also written in a sort of faux-Nahuatl, while in MK11, actual Nahuatl words are mixed into his moveset and gear options like Like "Tochtli" in "Tochtli blood sickles" being rabbit, or the "Tonaltzintli" sword, which means Sun.
To dive into some of his gear options in more depth: His swords are labeled as "macanas", which is a term used to describe a variety of wooden clubs and batons used by Mesoamerican, Central American, and Caribbean people by the Spanish (As such, the term encompasses a lot of unrelated weapons). The famous Macuahuitl, which was Kotal's sword in MKX, is one such example of a Macana. Meanwhile, his sickles are generally named after Mexica rulers/Aztec emperors: "Acamapichtli's sickles", "Huitzilihuitl's blades", "Chimalpopoca's blood sickles" are 3 examples. Some others are named after military ranks: "Tlamani" in "Blades of the Tlamani" is the term for a soldier who had captured 1 enemy soldier in combat, "Cueztecatl's Slash hooks" seem to be named after the Cuextecatl, the war-suit design worn by soldiers who had taken two captives, and so on. One of the sickles includes "Cuauhocelotl", a term used as an epithet for warriors in general but mainly refers to the Eagle and Jaguar orders soldiers could enter after capturing 4 enemies (though there were even more elite orders and ranks beyond that as well). His totems are generally named after deities: "Huitzilopotchli's fire", "Devious Mictlantecuhtli" (God of Death), "Tears of Chalchiuhtlicue" (a river and water goddess), etc. These actually do a decent job keeping a theme with each gods's attributes.
Finally, some of his skins delve back into military ranks or other knightly orders like "Otontin", "Shorn Ones" (listed as such in english rather then in the Nahuatl name), Tlacateccatl, etc, but mostly seem to be named after a combination of both Nahuatl place names ("Ayotlan", for example, is an area in the Mexican state of Jalisco; or "Uaxacac", which seems to be a mispelling of Oaxaca, a region in southern mexico (Ironically, while both of these are Nahuatl words, the people in these places weren't Nahuas) etc; along with random words and phrases such as "Ixtimal" (apparently somebody who has a good appearance, with a connotation of it covering up incompetence) or "Tencuicuitzca" (apparently means "swallow's beak", or somebody who is a good talker), "Mocicinoa" (somebody who brags a lot). A notable one is "Tenquahuitl" which means "Wooden lips", meaning a promise or commitment made with no backing (I think, maybe it means the opposite?). This is particularly cool because there's a intro dialog with Kotal and Raiden where asks if Kotal's support of Kitana as Kahn still stands, and Kotal replies that it was a promise made with wooden lips.
On that last note, I also think it's pretty refreshing that Kotal is largerly characterized as a honorable person that treats his underlings and subjects far better then Shao Kahn did, even if he's not above violence and subterfuge to protect his people and realm: Mesoamerican characters and factions are often presented as villainous or savage, even though in actual history these were large city-states, kingdoms, and empires with aqueducts, palaces, gardens, poets, diplomats, scribes, etc. Tenochtitlan for example was as large as Paris and Constantinople and was built on a lake with venice-like canals running through the city, royal gardens, zoos, aviaries, and aquariums, etc. It's a bit of a stretch, but I could also tie his role as a honorable political leader and things like his MK11 ending (where he takes the Sands of Times but does not use it, so history plays out as it does regardless of who it benefits) tying into Aztec diplomatic norms and views on the inherent transience of life and mortality.
However, it is not all compliments: A LOT of this NRS clearly just googled and implemented without a deeper understanding of some of the symbolism and terminology: Xiuhcoatl as wielded by Huitzilopochtli in Aztec art/myth was probably an Atlatl dart thrower, maybe a ceremonial staf or a Maucahuitl (or maybe just the serpent itself): They misinterpreted the curved shape as a sickle. Some of the Nahuatl in even his MK11 moveset and gear is made up words, and there's often not a correlation between the design or overall name of the gear piece or the move and the Nahuatl word in them, or sometimes NRS didn't understand the context: For example, "Butterfly blades of the Papalotl" is one of his sickles, and NRS INTENDED it to represent the 3-captive rank, but "Papalotl" is just the Nahuatl name for butterfly: it's not a rank, it's just in the Codex Mendoza page showing sample Mexica ranks, the 3-captive-rank soldier happens to be shown with a butterfly banner (Technically, the Cuextecatl warsuit wasn't exclusively worn by 2-captive rank soldiers either). What Macanas are called "Swords", "Macanas", or "Macuahuit" also isn't actually related to their design at all and is random, etc... of course, him turning into a Jaguar instead of a Hummingbird or an Eagle is also off (Jaguar's were Tezcatlipoca's thing!). My biggest criticism would be his design: While kotal larger avoids the primitive "Tribal" sterotyping Mesoamerican things get, his design is very much in line with those sorts of media sterotypes of Mesoamerican kings and soldiers.
If Kotal comes back in MK12, or 13, etc, I hope they work with an actual Mesoamerican consultant or artists, like David Bowles or Daniel Parada, to help with the visual design and other theming. He's already one of the better Mesoamerican video game characters, but that bar is pretty low.
I don't know anyone who likes D'vorah.
@@Vulgarth1Same
@@Vulgarth1 She was liked in X, 11 is where her hate train began
Erron Black ftw even if he really is useless in the story mode. I guess I shouldn't complain though, KK fans clearly have it even worst.
No one is reading all that
Oh yes I LOVE this topic, so beautifully fascinating, glad you're talking about it.
Two of the points I agree with most:
1. Have a balance of similarities and differences between introduced characters. It is very important that we feel like the old character style will still be usable yet at the same time engage us with a fresh new take on the fighting style and storylines.
2. It needs to happen early on. This way it feels like it's a part of the greater story and not just some random way to make a game feel "fresh" or "hip" for new generations. Unfortunately, when you wait too long, people grow too attached to the old characters making it challenging to get into newer ones. The only way it could work is if the main character is literally a carbon copy of their predecessor and are somehow being passed the torch in story play. Even still, it can be hard to get used to new names and designs. It's best to add newer characters to replace less significant players from the past than trying to replace the more significant and popular characters from past entries.
SF6 is fully out now and I can say that the story mode, as goofy as it can be, helps make getting to know the newcomers easier, and for the most part all of them are fun and enjoyable. Luke is a dork, Kimberly is fresh, and Marisa is so big and jovial.
They slot in nicely without feeling like they took anything away from another character.
Very cool retrospective.
Lmfao seriously. The Joker might as well be on the base roster at this point. He ain't no guest anymore, when he shows up the MK characters are like "You AGAIN?!"
It seems like we are due a Soul Calibur 5 remake with the entire story finally giving us the game it should have been
I especially thought that atleast 2 of the newcomers had fun movesets, like Patrokolis and ZWEI. 5 did have a lot wrong with it though, sadly. Kilik being an echo fighter of sorts kinds sucks
@@iiequinox8044 kilik being echo fighter is bad gameplay wise but I love it lore wise. he became just like is master
@@theflashgordon193 Though if he wants to 'save' Kilik it might be a nice opportunity for characterization if Edge Master wants to prevent his student from ending up like him (immortal but forced to watch friends and loved ones die as time marches on).
The funny thing about remakes is that they should be doing it to games that flopped like SC5. But "Remakes" are more like "We know this game was good so we are just gonna sell it to you again full price with more bugs and better graphics".
@@Xenozillex *Points to RE4*
Late but sadly SF6 kinda waffled on the new generation thing as well. The three set up as the new trio (Luke, Jamie and Kimberly) don't really do anything in the World Tour story and just sit around as masters for your avatar to talk to (Luke gets a bit in the prequel comic but that's more centered around Ken than him). I also generally find it odd that they didn't bring back Sakura and Sean to coincide with this new generation, since they already brought back Li-Fen (though she also is relegated to sitting on the sidelines). At least JP is a cool new villain, so we got that at least.
But even then JP is just classy m bison it’s not exactly new
Thanks for remembering Soul Cal 6 :(
Somebody's gotta do it 😢😭
I actually hope that, when they get to the point in the story, the SCV new generation come back, hopefully with better stories.
I'd like to also mention Bloody Roar 2.
Bloody roar 2 has been set 5 years after the first game and expects 3 characters, all of the old ones have been replaced by new ones. Some of the new characters are completely new. Others have some ties to older characters.
As i know, Bloody Roar 2 has become the best-selling game in the whole series, and to me it has been a successful new generation.
Really good topic. I really enjoyed the video!
The fact Forest was only in Tekken 3, TT1, and TT2 still pisses me off to this day
The part that makes it worse is that almost anything involving Marshal or Paul is now relegated to joke character stuff now
Indeed, T3 remains the gold standard in how to successfully create a new generation. Even if it was only a third overall entry, the way the game incorporated the likes of Jin in place of mainly Kazuya was well executed. And then, of course, the rest of the new cast was just great. Xiaoyu, Hwoarang, Bryan, Eddie, King 2, Julia, even Forest, all of them fit in well with the OGs. No other game has come close, IMHO.
As for SF6, it is a much better attempt than SF3 ever was. Both in aesthetics and gameplay, all of the newcomers look great, and work well with the old cast. I just don't find Luke to be good enough as the face of SF6, even though he is a shoto in an MMA skin.
Gotta give credit to SNK for this. While they have their misses, K' and Rock are great as main protags in either a new arc or a new generation.
17:42 well to be fair, Johnny Cage would’ve likely told Cassie of his time with Liu Kang and what he meant to him, Sonya, and Raiden since he was a beacon of hope for defeating Goro, Shang Tsung, and Shao Kahn. Not to mention that Sonya could’ve explained to Cassie that the revenants were corrupted as shown with Jax and Johnny nearly became one.
True, there are hints that Cassie is aware of that, but honestly, just having it all be off-screen conversations is just so narratively underwhelming. Plus, the way the Revenants were treated by the story was horrible.
"Maybe we could talk this out. Liu Kang and Kitana were allies once."
"The time for negotiations is over, Cassandra Cage."
"Raiden is right, Johnny."
"Kabal? Wasn't he one of Kano's goons?"
"Watch out, he is good on his feet."
"I like the other you better."
No no no, we cannot have the characters actually have some sort of sympathy for Revenants and actually want to save them, no no no, having them act and ve treated as MWHA HA HA HA baddies is so more engaging. And in Kabal's case we really needed to build up to the retcon of his retcon in the final installment of the trilogy. Consistency? What's that?
The MK section really highlights how much of a bad idea it was to do the whole "swap characters in story mode" thing. I never even considered Cassie to be the new "main character" to replace Liu Kang until this video. That may be one of the real failures of modern MK games, they don't really have a proper main character that you focus on from start to finish. It seems like they're trying to focus too much on casuals to force everyone to learn how to use every character in order to progress the plot. They're trying to have their Conquest cake and eat it too. But in order to do this effectively, they should've just combined the Krypt and Konquest modes instead of trying to turn the Story mode into a linear Ladder mode. Another alternative is to have smaller self contained stories that directly relate to each character like DOA3 does. In order to fill in the full picture of the plot, you need to play as every character.
Great topic, Garou Mark of the Wolves has to be my favourite example. I hope that the sequel doesn't rely too much on returning characters and keeps pushing the "new generation" with more new characters
Some developers at SNK hinted that City of the Wolves perhaps will be the final game in the Fatal Fury series, since they want to finish the story that ended in Mark of the Wolves. If that's the case, I hope they can make a sort of celebration of previous characters that haven't appeared in KoF. I think the first teaser trailer at least confirms that all of the previous characters from MotW will come back, but I wish that characters from previous Fatal Fury/Real Bout games can make a return, like Blue Mary, Bob Wilson, Li Xiangfei, Rick Strowd, among others. And I also hope that SNK includes some of the new characters thar were meant to appear in the cancelled MotW sequel for the Neo-Geo
Excited for Garou 2
Samsho did a weird thing of a introducing a new protag almost every game without a massive new supporting cast, 3 introducing Shizumaru as the protag, 4 with the Kazama brothers, 64 with Shiki, 5 with Yoshitora and Mina, 6 with Andrew and Iroha and 7 with Yashamaru and Darli sort of. Instead of new distinct generations it's more of a gradual passage of time. None of them really became definitive new faces, Haohmaru and Nakoruru are still "Samurai Shodown", but most are well received and come back.
SamSho 6 isn't even canon so Iroha and Andrew never really existed canonically.
@@VOAN I mean, they COULD exist in the universe without contradicting anything but yeah 6 is a dream match title like KOF2002.
@@VOAN Iroha is in 7, idk if they've said all these weirdos and crossover character are or aren't explicitly canon
Good video but u missed the opportunity to talk about how in DOA team ninja treats Honoka and Marie Rose as the new mascot every where (spin off, cross overs, ect). But in the story they never seemed to commit to a straight pass the torch moment. 6 is the biggest offender with the story following Honoka just for Kasumi and the ninjas to arrive last minute.
Honoka and Marie Rose aren't good examples because they were only pushed to the forefront in DOA6 because their fans are perverts (but this is DOA we're talking about)
Honoka might be one of the worst FGC characters I know (character-/personality-wise)
Dude that's probably the best thumbnail I've ever seen on UA-cam 😮
I personally find the goofiest thing about SCV is that the narrative beat to justify Alpha Pat is "You don't need to replicate another person's fighting style and can do better with the one that is more uniquely your own" and then he literally switches from having a unique moveset to just copy + paste Setsuka.
Absolutely maddening.
Astaroth JR was that moment for me. Being a golem, did he really need a _younger_ replacement????
@@jm4050 "Junior" being a derogatory term for SCV Astaroth. The point is he was a construct. The clone thing the wikis go into is equally nonsensical. A golem is a magic based creature. Clones involve science. Science which is more improbable than magic within the setting and era of the Soul Calibur series.
Simple answer: Astaroth is rebuilt each time. There was no need for him to be legacy character at all.
Its just too bad Adelheid failed at being a next generation Rugal compared to how well Rock was as a next generation Geese.
SNK not even using Adelheid half the time doesn't help.
I think Adelheid was supposed to appear in KoF XII and XIII but SNK wasn't able to do it. Still, kind of weird that they didn't try to make him a playable character in XIV or XV
Great video!
00:50 haha, loved it snake XD
Interesting watching this after MK1 was announced. To me it seems the rebooted because they didn't want to commit to switching out the OGs for the Kombat Kids fully and that's why MK11 was so open ended. I think a lot of Sonya fans would boycott MK1 if Cassie would have outright replaced her on the roster (though we still don't know if Sonya is even in the game), but still. I can picture the meltdown. Personally I wouldn't care as I love Cassie more than I ever liked Sonya and I have been playing since MK2. Really great analysis, was fun to watch!
Soul Calibur 3 needs a remaster or remake. Chronicles Of The Sword is still my favourate side mode in a 1 v 1 fighting game.
Great video, I have subscribed to your channel!
Both Jin and rock carries mixed move sets from the two people they inherited from
On your point about SF3 having a new protagonist completely unfamiliar to the audience, I'm surprised SF6 didn't go with Sean, and decided to essentially do this again with Luke. He's the last DLC in SFV, so he receives more of an early introduction, but he isn't refined until 6.
The real new protagonist is your created character I feel. Even Luke still takes the part as a mentor like the others
@@joedatiusI always thought that Luke was so basic and boring as a character. But as I played the SF6 demo, not only has he warmed up to me as the goofy bro coach but it dawned upon me why Luke's moves are so basic: it's because Luke's toolset is the base for YOUR Toolset as your create a character starts out.
Luke had to be Lame for YOU to be the Star of the Game!
I'm surprised that Sean isn't even in the game as part of the base roster.
@Dzzy123 gotta space out those shotos, man lol. But yeah I really hope Sean and Sakura get into SF6 at some point.
@@Dzzy123 i kinda understand you but Sean is just pointless right now with how the game is set up. also i just don't think the japan side of things really care about Sean. its important to remember that Sean was basically supposed to be the Dan of SF3. the only time he was even any good was an accident and they nerfed him so hard he became literal garbage tier
SF3 I love because is tried to be as new as possible as a new generation would actually be in the real world, but I understand that's not popular marketing for an IP. SF6 seems to do the new generation thing with a better balance while retaining that new kids on the street flavor that SF3 had. I like it
To me that's not an example of balance. They are clinging desperately to SF2 veterans, which is well displayed by the fact that a game set in the SF3 future timeline doesn't have any SF3 chars in the base roster or the first dlc wave.
It's clear that the devs are extremely traumatized and insecure about the actual SF3 timeline, and that is a behavior that i personally find miserable given how long it's been since SF3. Also SF3 went over a kind of redemption thanks to the fgc promotion or Third Strike over the 2000s. None of that seems to have been considered by the devs, that just cautiously avoided all SF3 newcomers.
What killed SF3 wasn't the newcomers literally but the badly balanced roster that was dominated by newcomers. So let's say if SF6 had some SF3 and some SF2 chars, that is already a totally new situation, it's not doing the same as SF3. So that makes the exclusion of SF3 chars totally unreasonable and indefensible. It's absurd to me, and one of the worst part of SF6 (which I'm still liking anyways just to be clear).
SF6 imo has too many old guards still on the roster, like was anyone really asking for for Dee Jay???
@@ToyotaKudoFan I'm fine with Deejay returning. He deserves it after being left out of 5.
But honestly I would throw the entire rest of the World Warriors in the trash for even a single SF3 character to appear. They're hogging up the space.
At least they won't be hogging up DLC slots...
@@carlosaugusto9821 Developers so traumatized by SF3, they have included a lot of its characters in SF4 and SF5...
Most likely scenario, they gonna sell SF3 characters later as DLC and for now just want to ensure people that all their classic favorites will be there as well as brand new characters they are trying to promote.
SF3 failed, because, it was a 2D game released on a faulty hardware right when 2D games were getting out of fashion. New gameplay and roster didn't help, of course.
@@ToyotaKudoFan Ironic enough, alot of mfs were excited to see deejay come back.
good video Snek
SC5 was so bad it actually hurt. I loved the previous titles as my favorite fighting games. Thousands of hours into SC4. Most likely my cultural difference but those siblings were UNBEARABLE! The way they spoke and interacted was so cringe it hurt.
Great video, 👏🏼 I only knew about the newcomers in SCV because I bought the collector's edition - came with an artbook full of bios. Made it worse when I played it and none of the story I read was fleshed out.💔
Long live Soul Calibur VI!🗡
I really hope that SF6 does bring back more of the SF3 gang as DLC. Those characters are pretty cool in their own right, and with the World Warriors already in SF6, I doubt anyone would be upset with their inclusion.
just bring back Twelve im begging you capcom
Need to get round to watching this properly!
9:10 SEE ALSO:
Thorgi Arcade's King of Fighters Retrospective.
Highlights include:
-SNK Building a Theme Park for some Reason which wound up being a money pit.
-What could have been in SNK Handhelds and the path never treaded
and the Story of SNK being told alongside the King of Fighters Saga.
I'm curious, are you going to cover more snk games? I think you could do some interesting videos with some plotlines like the Ash saga
I feel like Tobias's Idea for MK5 would have worked
Great video 👍🏽
Kazuya is such a dope ass character but I don't think we even knew how dope he was until he came back in 4.
T4 Kazuya felt like a reinvention of the character.
@The Hill I guess I didn't realize how off he was in 1 and 2 until i saw him in the newer games. U would think him tossing heihachi off a cliff then smiling would tell u all u need lol.
I adore him and hope that Tekken 8 has him be redeemed by the family he has left, but I hate how Tekken has tried to paint Kazuya as the big evil bastard when he was the victim that was put in the position in life by his father Heihachi, who was entirely responsible for how Kazuya turned out by making his life a living hell, even before throwing him off a cliff as he'd abuse the child since he was born to beat the weakness out of him, and take away the two people he loved in his grandfather that adored Kazuya by murdering him via locking him away under the Mishima Dojo, and murdering his mother. He'd then nearly kill Kazuya by throwing him off a cliff, and outright abandoning him while in the process of ruining another life in Lee Chalon just to spite Kazuya. All because Heihachi is Harada's favorite, which is ridiculous and would be the equivalent of Mortal Kombat trying to make Shao Khan the sympathetic anti-hero, and Katana the villain.
@@NhBleker it's all about saving Kazuya from the devil at this point....I think lol.
"woman over 40 getting replaced regardless of popularity, with only Sonya being around at 60"
*Not counting the already canonically undead 1000 year old Sindel, or centuries old daughter, immortal gods and goddesses, and vampire like creatures like Morrigan and that vampire lady from BlazBlue
Nitpicky I know, but technically if your not a human, you can be any age and make it work. So just don't be human if you don't wanna be replaced out.
I believe in my boy Takeda returning in Mortal Kombat 1
Really enjoyed the video, Something to clarify about KOF, for the sake of simplicity it's better to think of KOF as a fanafic of Fatal Fury the idea of which is to have as many SNK properties be coherently a part of a same universe, with KOF Maximum Impact beeing a fanfic of a fanfic.
Garou: Mark of The Wolves was going to be called Fatal Fury: Mark of The Worlves, in game hidden graphics confirm this as well as the Dreamcast version that was indeed named Fatal Fury Mark of The Wolves
The most poorly handled that I experienced was Soul Calibur V. A good story mode would have changed this
Garou MOTW's case is a little tricky at first glance. The question proposed by the video is whether or not the game's next generation project was done right or not.
So Garou MOTW wasn't a commercial success itself and the sequel even was cancelled, but that has a lot to do with SNK on the verge of death (MOTW is from 99 and SNK stopped making games in 00 and officially closed in 01)... So at that critical time SNK planned their last arcade games to be their two biggest franchises: KOF 00 and Metal Slug 3.
Secondly KOF just overshadowed all other SNK games by the late 90s, even MOTW and Last Blade 2 despite their higher quality. It's a similar case to Darkstalkers, that in many ways is a superior project than the SF games made around the same time, but it remained a niche that had a tragic early death.
But what matters is that MOTW did the next generation thing extremely well, surpassing SF3 at what it tried to do. And the roster is much more charismatic and it was well received by the public even, unlike SF3. Sure there were few controversies like Mai's absence (expectedly) but it was nothing like to the outrage about SF3's roster.
All this is just to make it clear that if MOTW wasn't a commercial hit on release, it wasnt because of the next generation idea - it wasn't for the same reasons of SF3's failure. But it was because of KOF's dominance in the SNK world and SNK's own collapse.
Garou was a success just not enough to save a SNK that just was already in bad shape, went SNK Playmore took the torch years later much of the old talent was out and they just dedicated themself to play extremelly safe
I think MotW was a success for SNK, not as big as KoF, but the Fatal Fury series was pretty popular, in fact SNK claimed Real Bout 2 was one of their most successful games in the late 90s. The fact the sequel was canceled was due to it being more complex to develop since it had more animations compared to other of their games and the financial difficulties they were having, but MotW 2 was at least 60% completed according to some developers. I think it could have been released between 2002 and 2003
Garou felt more like a spin-off rather than a sequel.
@@ShadowSumac well, in the end the Garou sequel will be titled Fatal Fury: City of the Wolves
@@pablocasas5906 Yeah, I know.
Garou intro showing fatal fury's ending to showing rock and terry is why it worked while sf3 intro was like "this is alex and ur gonna like it" with no context
Patroklos trying to becone the successor to not one, but TWO characters and failed miserably
My first Tekken game was Tekken 3. So when I eventually played a later Tekken and saw Kazuya I thought to myself "who the hell is this guy". Jin will always be the face of Tekken to me.
Kazuya made it into smash. Guess jin isn't the face of tekken