Cata heroic tanking was awesome early. It was so difficult and required a lot of mechanics. Eventually it turned into a faceroll after they were nerfed
Looked for an Tank Comparison this afternoon and couldnt find a good one. So I cooked dinner, came back to the PC, went on UA-cam and there I see this baller delivering! You, good Sir, are the real MVP!
Man, back in the day tanking wasn't about damage, it was about aggro. Managing threat, picking it up, positioning, protecting your allies... You sacrificed all your offensive power and 'play making' potential to become the thing that allows others to succeed. The front line, the vanguard... You were supposed to be extremely hard to kill because you had 3 or 4 other things to worry about... Timers, aggro swaps, positioning, phases, etc. I'm not saying that tanks do literally the work, I was saying that in the same way the DPS doesn't have to worry about aggro, they are allowed to focus on similar things... Now forcing tanks to worry about getting 100-0'd in 3 seconds is a terrible choice. I liked tanking since BC (even though I tanked in vanilla) and almost every expac was a new challenge, if not an improvement. If what you say is true, this is a massive step-back in terms of tank gameplay.
+the Void My comment wasn't in regard to that, it was in regard to the tank's role in the group. That was the trade off... Becoming an 'unkillable' badass in exchange for being useless almost anywhere else. It was what it was, and for me at least (after vanilla) it was really fun.
New sub here, thanks for taking the time to try out all of the classes in much detail. I main a prot warrior and you basically told me, obviously not what i wanted to hear but the actualy reality of everything
The top comment is such a troll. Preach Gaming said the skill sealing in tanking was much lower in Legion which made tanking boring and unrewarding... people these days with their conclusions ffs
But blizz say that the number one reason people leave WoW is due to their class being changed too much... yet they seem to have completely done it again this expansion.
+1lichfield I hope they don't waste too much dev time on all these class changes that piss off just as many people as they please. Example like reworking DK runes, I hope that change didn't take more than 10 mins of dev time
+1lichfield Yup, and i would have thought blizzard would have learned by now how bad an idea it is to have tanks generate resources based almost exclusively on how much damage they take, but they seem to be doing that again :(.
+1lichfield I think that when they were saying that, it was in the context of a class being changed often during the course of an expansion itself, but most classes are always changed before the beginning of each expansion. I think the most untouched ones were the rogues for a couple of them, but otherwise I'd be hard pressed to come up with any where time really stood still. Preach's Legacy videos have some interesting looks into that process, where they focus on a specific classes journey through time.
+Cornbread unfortunately Arms Warrior in WoD disagrees. Constant player feedback was ignored for the entirety of WoD testing. They only abandon ship when it suits them.
Warrior tanking in a nutshell Full armor = less rage for mitigation , naked = lots of rage for mitigation So upgrading your armor is not an upgrade but a downgrade for you :) Anyone ready for some pantless dungeon runs as a warrior??
Back in the day, as protection warrior, you had to avoid parry and dodge like the plague, as it absolutely butchered your rage generation. Looks like we're back to it, I suppose Blizzard thought they should go back to Burning Crusade, except they took the wrong parts.
+Preach Gaming once they remove the whole low health element of the brewmaster, which they said they are working on doing. Where would you put the brewmaster in this list?
Preacher... I (Gryphandor) am not sure if you look at the Alpha class forums much but I am trying my hardest to post my issues with the Protection Paladin build after build. I have been a Protection Paladin since Burning Crusade. Most of us want Holy Power back. We want a resource to manage. We feel our rotation is clucky because it doesn't matter what we hit as long as it is off cool down. All that has done is made the Protection Paladin very boring to play. Now in the next build they want to move some talents around and give us Seraphim. All of our feedback and concern got us Seraphim....... Not happy even in the slightest. It isn't going to do anything to improve gameplay other then cost 2 charges of Shield of the Righteous for us to worry about. Oh if they release official Legacy realms nothing will keep me here playing Legion in any progression capacity. I am really trying to understand how any of the developers find this fun or if it is all about just keeping it simple and easy for anyone to play. That then goes against giving us a rewarding complex choice of gameplay. It just doesn't exist for the Protection Paladin. Really hope they wake up and fix this before it is released.
I would be fine with that. My problem is that it is absolutely no fun to play and that we have no meaningful choices to make. That just isn't fair. It is like being overly punished for doing something wrong. I don't even know what level of skill they are trying to design this stuff around.
to be fair, its not like other tanking classes are antal better imo. Even now, warriors, druids, and Dk's are all quite easy to play i lost all interest in talking in SoO. paladins were the only talking class left that felt like Blizzard wanted talking to be hard. (yet they were severely punished in early HM) now all you need to do in most raids as a tank is to stand and prevent your own death, while the deeps make all of the fun stuff =\
I have played Protection Paladin since BC. Not sure who these changes are geared toward. Not any player that wants meaningful gameplay or choices that matter. So this Legion version of the Protection Paladin isn't for me. I really hope Blizzard sees the error of their ways before it is too late to do anything about it. I really do.
Not in the alpha, but the removal of holy power (finally!) is the only thing bringing me back to the class I mained from TBC and Wrath and into Cata. Adding a resource is fine, but please...no combo points. Just wanted to share another perspective.
I hate to be that guy but I just liked when Dks healed, warriors and pallies blocked, and druids took less damage to make up for not having block or parry. If they change how tanks work every single xpac they are going to have scaling issues just like they have for the last 7ish years. My major reasoning for switching to fury when I played was because tanking in MoP just had me feeling like a dps with a fuckload of health. I could just be a salty vet but I thought it was cool when tanks had double the health of dps, didn't take shit for damage unless they were intended to and had to make due with basic small cooldowns to take as little as possible and big ones to not get crushed by high damage attacks. There was a definite art to being stalwart in times passed and tanks that were shitty were easy to spot.
Nope you are spot on with how tanking feels in Legion :(. Please get on the alpha forums and make your voice heard Preach. We need some help getting them to stop this train wreck. I am a Prot warrior main but I dont know for how much longer.
+dewcodered88 Preach is a EU player. Blizz only responds on the NA forums. Which you can only access if you have a NA account that's flagged for alpha.
+dewcodered88 Never thought I'd say this, but rolling a bear seems like it might be appealing. The changes for all the classes are really disappointing.
it seems that Stephen Frost has been able to toss his opinions into the game design more frequently than i thought. the overall changes to the tanking:healing synergy has been ripped directly out of wildstar's book. you'll find that, hopefully if blizzard stays true, the skill requirement for the playerbase will rise. the dps will have to not stand in anything, if they do they won't get healed. the healers will have to use their tools properly to keep the tank alive. the tanks will need to use their actives to reduce the mana consumption of their healer. i can understand why someone from a world first position looking into the future can see this as a bad change for the playerbase as a whole. i however disagree. the further away from wrath of the litchking heroics the gameplay gets the better.
Soo tanks' survival being dependent on their own skill was a problem? And now their survival is just dependent on largely the healers' skill instead, meaning if your healer is shit you literally can't do anything but die? Sounds like some quality changes to me
My mane concern is there are hardly enough tanks around as it is. If they make tanks boring than LFR and dungeon finder is going to be twice as long as it should be.
@Preachgaming are you going to do a follow up to tanking? I really wana main tank for competitive 5 mans in the xpac. Loved tanking 5 mans for many years and sad to hear this about tanks...
This reminds me a bit of how tanking was in BC's Magister's Terrace, where you had to have a CC class among your DPS to get past even the thrash mobs, let alone the bosses, and I think this is what Blizz is pushing towards (and the BC nostalgia dungeon event seems like a hint at this). If you think about it, this is a compromise between having meaningful aggro and not forcing people to get threat meters if they want to play so much as a dungeon. I remember when I was fear-leashing in BC (and occasionally banishing) I felt a rank above the "muh deeps" crowd who just rolled their faces on the keyboard to get the most damage out, which is admittedly valuable but I'd rather have 10-15% less dps and have something else to do than focusing on my rotation like a mantra and staying away from flashy things. So as a tank, sure, it sucks donkeyballs, and I absolutely agree with that because the control you had over your health bar was spread out among the others, which is suicidal in pugs. On the other hand, this will force the healers and especially the dps players to step up their game or fail at the game.
KAREN DESU If you think about it, Preacher isn't whining because of the changes but because what it will cause. See, every time a game increases the minimum skill level for it to remain enjoyable, some people will drop out and proceed to bitch and whine in the forums, as well as into the ears of Preacher in search of justification. So in a sense, Preacher is already having a headache from the wailing he will have to listen to, and I feel sorry for him for that. He's doing a lot of work to educate and inform people, which is really all the help he can give to all those who need to get better at an already forgiving game.
I agree. I played mainly in BC and early Wotlk then took a break for a few years, on coming back I was surprised that dungeons had become mass aoe fests. It used to be that the party leader would mark targets for kill order and cc, which I was pleased preach was doing in this video. I can understand where preach is coming from though as that style which it looks like they are moving back towards, while fun, isn't really as viable with random pugs. I would expect to see normal and heroics becoming more facerolls again as people get some gear but mythic and mythic+ requiring more cc and focused killing as the difficulty ramps up. This coming at the expense of tanks fun though does suck.
If tanking is how it was in BC, then hell yes. The real tanks will shine through the filth. Tanking isnt as easy any more. Now you have to be aware of your surroundings and make sure your OT (In raids) is ready to flick taunt if you get smacked really hard and need a sec to get topped off. Or make sure your Group members are CCing what they need to CC to prevent a wipe. This is how tanking should be.
Ilysanth Amaranthine Well Duh! lol. He's one of those "Baddies".He probably just sits in BGs "Commanding" the team to do things while he hides all game.
Thank-you. I really appreciate you going and compiling all of the information on tanks currently in the alpha and shows us where they stand and how they are playing so far. The biggest thing that is preventing me from looking forward to and buying Legion is the current state of the tanks from what i have read on the alpha forums and from what i have seen here. Hope Blizzard fixes the current problems they have made for the tanks on the alpha.
Thank you for the video. Do you think you could make an updated video about the best old world raid/dungeon solo classes too? I'm keeping my DK, but I would like to see how Paladin, DH, Hunter, and Druid have fared in Legion.
Why not make bosses hit harder on the tanks instead of gutting it to unfun-ness. Why do Blizzard think that casual players want a brainless button spam? It's. Not. Fun. Stop it.
Hey, wondering if you will do another video now that the pre-patch is out and Legion is soon upon us? Because there are some changes to warrior that makes it (slightly) more playable, namely the Vengeance talent (gives you some kind of rotation to Ignore pain and doing some dmg, still pretty shit compared to how fun it was in WoD and I'm saying this as a fellow mainer of prot warrior).
What's worrying to me is that if this is how tanking "works" atm, all the encounters will be designed around this method. Therefore, if they want to change how tanking works at this point they seemingly would have to change every encounter that has been designed thus far. This leads me to believe that they'd be tentative to change tanking at this point. I hope I'm wrong, someone correct me if I am.
While I'm trying to keep an open mind and not cast my final judgement until I try it for myself, this news makes me dread playing one of my favorite classes: Protection Warrior. Does the "rage generated by damage taken" thing mean that disc priests can no longer cast Power Word: Shield on the warrior?
+MyViolador Apparently most people here, like MyViolador, think fun == difficulty. Not to mention that having five lame 30% flat reduction buttons means skill
Will you be covering the brewmaster after you try out the changes before the expansion drops?Warrior and Monk tanking are currently my bread and butter to making WoW fun for me. I am currently leveling a druid before the expansion drops but i would really love to play brew in raids and be almost on par. I love to mid/max my classes i play and if brew doesn't compair and druid is hands down the better tanking spec then im most likely to play that.
I think you missed the memo 8 years ago. Threat isn't the thing for tanks anymore, AM is. If they take away AM but dont add threat back in, thats just lowering the skill ceiling
I am finally done. I have abandoned my Protection Paladin main of 11 years for a Fury / Protection Warrior. As of the current BETA build I am still not tanking.
MagePowa A boring meat shield with absolutely no meaningful gameplay. That is what Protection Paladin is. I do want to add that the Protection Warrior isn't much better but Fury is a ton of FUN! That is why we play games.
is prot warrior fun atleast? i main prot war right now and i do think switching to fury in elgion but it would be shame to leave him if hes utter boring shit
I could literally copy and paste this, and it would match my tragically upsetting feels. I've been playing this since '06. I honestly don't know what to do, I'm thinking I might have to go play monk which i don't hate, but I really don't want to main it. I might end up playing my DK, but I'd really liek to have a healing spec as I don't care to DPS. I'm sorry for my Protadin brothers
lmao "Pain" is the Demon Hunter resource? Who the fuck is approving these names? I would think Fel Energy would make the most sense for the resource name. Maybe somebody better versed in the the lore can correct me on that.
I could see their resource being "hatred" or "malevolence" but fucking pain? Thats so lame lol like a dh feels pain and is all of the sudden empowered to do cool things. What a lame concept.
I'm already level 68 on my bear. (I have two druids, shame they're in different realms, but all four specs will me mines, muahahahaha, hahaha, haha, wait druids shouldn't be evil what am I doing...)
Does healing feel better at lower level because of these changes to active mitigation? In 5 mans at early WoD and especially later on, if you had a good tank, and your dps weren't idiots, you were nearly completely unnecessary, and I would often find myself going balance on my druid or shadow on my priest, and just spot healing if necessary. Perhaps they've taken it too far, but it would nice for healers to actually have something to do in a decent group other than /dance and browse through atlas loot.
Howbout a state of the DPS in Legion, Preach? Would love to know what you think the line up would be involving My favorites, Frost mage, Demon Lock and Shadow Priest.
less good tanks had huge problems. Sounds good to me. If you cant even play LEGION WoW, a fuckin expansion, which has 3 buttons like it is almost a MOBA and still fail, then you derserve to get punished.
less good tanks = about 90% of all tanks in the game aka majority will have hard time in dungs/raids becuse the tanks cant play properly and therfor have less fun and the need for good tanks will get crazy high and loads of guilds will get destroyed etc...sure maby dont matter to u becuz u prob got a good tank in your community but srsly..your not the only palyer in the game
***** well the problem is a big part of wows playerbase cant play properly and then making the role unplayable if u cant play properly is a bad idea...like if u can do dps rotation properly u will do 100k but if u fail a little u will only do 10k...seems unbalanced
+Timmy Agerberg He's in the background in the beginning of the Mage Legacy video, and then hilariously missing replaced with the shield at the end of it xD So homeboy has been on the road for awhile now lol
Can you do a ranged dps comparison? I'm trying to really decide what to play in legion and typically I have rotated around a lot between the 3 clothies. I'm just wondering from how legion looks if shadow priests will not be second class citizen dps this time around and can be competitive with mages and locks. From your experience do you think that the casters have been competitive with each other / melee dps choices? Also following with that how much do you think racials will play into these classes/specs? [especially the demo rework complimenting with orcs pet bonus.]
after reviewing video, I believe Shadow Priests are looking to be one of the better options. Though I dont believe any are currently broken/un-viable. It all dpeends on your playstyle and what aspects of the game you enjoy most. If you're in it for levelling, I'd suggest the lock. If you're in it for the community I'd recommend the priest, since maybe you can still offheal (no idea how they're going to do that yet, if they will) if you want to aim for ease of transit, Be a mage. Your satisfaction relies on how you can identify your own desires, and pick based on that.
Ill admit I really enjoyed mage for teleports and such, also it seemed pretty straightforward and its never been super useless in pvp which I dabble in. I just love worgen and feel I am always lacking because the racials werent as strong as human.
+kalibos this is such a lame video, how are you even agreeing to this? Maybe you should stay in WoD while the rest of us go out and actually have a challenging dungeon, nub!
+airbornerecon11 Did you even listen to the video? Re-watch starting at :39. GAMEPLAY. GAMEPLAY. Having the dungeons be CHALLENGING is completely different than having an INTERESTING play-style. God damn.
My 2 cents on prot warriors, keep in mind I don't have alpha access, so this is just thoughts on what I read on build notes and my interpretation of Preach's feedback. Would protection warriors be somewhat better if we'd use blocks and critical blocks as the main rage generator alongside shield slam and revenge? We already have 10 rage from critical blocks on live, so plus an extra 5 per normal block may be beneficial. But that might put us at a disadvantage when it comes to single target fights? Perhaps up the rage generated by revenge when it only hits one target, other option is to hope for devaste procs and you shield slam more. I really despise that last one though. I don't know how I feel about this Ignore Pain, to me it looks like they want us to see it as a 'larger' cooldown. Perhaps like brewmasters used their Guard ability? If someone would offer some insight on it, that would be very much appreciated. I agree with Preach on the fact they should have left more than one offensive talent tier in there.
Currently a 13/13M Protection paladin.. This video makes me want to cry. Removing Holy Power gives us nothing to manage, its just pressing the buttons that are available carelessly, where is the skill required? Why the hell would anyone want to tank anymore? How can I optimize myself? I really hope some changes come about because I've tanked the entire time I've played this game and I feel crushed. Might as well stop calling it the skill ceiling and call it the floor because it seems that no matter how much you research or prepare, it'll barely make a difference in what you can bring to the table in this model.
+Baws Life I never stop managing it. I play Seraphim on every fight so you need to be pooling at the right times to keep a high uptime as well as ensuring it's available for active mitigation at key points on fights like Kilrogg, Mannoroth, and Zakuun. Holy power pooling can be extremely useful on fights like Archimonde where he doesn't actually attack while casting Wrought Chaos, Allures, or other spells so you can load up on it, and then drop it out with back to back SotRs for 6 seconds of strong physical mitigation while dragging him to a new position. Managing this resource is what (should) dictate a lot of your play style currently. The more holy power you can generate, the more you can mitigate, deal out damage, and keep yourself alive with healing. That management is what governs a lot of my quick decisions in combat and I love how it took me a while to get to where I am tanking now. If anything, Legion tanking seems much more like playing whack-a-mole with whatever abilities are available rather than having a reactionary rotation that can be tuned for different encounters.
Charles Ayres I feel like your taking holy power a lot bit to seriously if you know what im saying. Building holy power is really easy and doesn't have to be pooled, There can be 5-3 secs left till a shred armor or any of those other mechanics like it and you can gain full holy power before it goes off, and taking Seraphim is just to make it harder on yourself, Seraphim is prob the only thing that makes tanking harder other than that its no big problem. My point is holy power did not make anything harder or easier unless you wanted it to (Seraphim if you did want it to). Now if it were a monk where you might actually run out of a resource like energy or chi then it would be a problem, but with a pally you just always gonna have something up to generate holy power.
Hey Preach. Love all the vids! Just wanted to ask if u feel this list/ranking is still representable as of right now or whether it has changed over the past 1½ month?
+Wilhelm Peters not realy, other buttons generate holy power and you push them when they shine in WoD there is no other interaction. If Shield procs you press it. What is now in Legion is simply WoD Paladin minus Holy Power and SotR on a CD thats it. This class had least amount of changes. Also Preacher is a noobcake for not saying a simple thing "this is not final" and even if this is final it is just a WoD Paladin. Paladin has and had 1 fucking active mitigation skill in SotR because Word of Glory/Flame is a joke. So nothing changes here. Lets be realistic and not "legion is bad because reasons" fucking realistic. If we are realistic: Monk changed shitloads, Warrior changed a lot, Druid changed shitloads and DK changed shitloads. One would assume a) Paladin is not changing a lot because it is good, simply good. About active mitigation. Paladin has flat %DMG reduction, this class can be simple to play but this is the best fucking and most reliable AM in the whole game. You take less damage, nothing can beat this why ? Mechanics that make you dodge hits like "dodge" or makes you exposed to spikey damage like parry are shit. Because you have % chance it will happen and your healer doesn't know it will happen so every dodge is just overhealing on the healers. Yes nothing more or less. So Flat % reduction and you taking hits but in smaller chunks is actually much better for healers and their mana than stuff like 100% or 60% dodge. What about absorbs ? Well aborbs are also good but this is gear dependant / mechanic dependant either tanks absorb all damage and healers do nothing either they absorb nothing. So it is a mechanic that is hard to balance to make good. %DMG reduction is the best way to handle AM in game and if you want to have progression raids happen smooth probably you will have to have a Paladin or Two as tanks.
what about using cc, is that still a thing? it used to be required for older content before it was turned in to tank trains railing through dungeons eating the dps alive on the charts.
WotLK tanking, with the exception of blood DKs, was all about your gear. Most tanks had very low impact active mitigation outside of things like shield wall. So I would definitely have to disagree. Active Mitigation was one of the things that the last three expansions have done right.
Best thing about Wrath tanking was that you could pull all the fucking mobs and still live trough it. At same time it was exciting but boring. To me tanking was best at start of Cataclysm.
As someone who plays prot paladin, I can't really relate to anything Preach is saying. I can't imagine the protadin that came out from this is the same one, there's so much cool stuff to it. I may be fairly biased though, still, saying that Divine Steed is the peak of the spec is just completely ignoring how you actually play it to its full potential. So I can only assume it's out of date, which might mean protadin has indeed gotten fairly better.
Unpopular opinion: I am thankful Paladin's are losing Holy Power. I tanked through wrath and was known as one of the best tank on my (admittedly small) server. When they added Holy Power, I hated it. I still hate it. And I'm glad it's gone. Fuck that mechanics. I am not a rogue and I don't need combo points.
So you would be reluctant tanking randoms as a Prot Warrior or with any of these? Is Prot pally just boring to play or is it weak as well? Sounded like it was very powerful, just a bit of a yawn. When you were on Blood it looked like you were really living on the edge (very low HP) very often; is that part of the spec or was that particular fight just hard/healer weak? I was trying to decide between Frost DK and prot pally to main... I'm discouraged about pally now but if it's just a matter of being boring I might reconsider - I'll trade boredom for survivability if group content is as hard as you make it out to be
+SSJ4Nappa Eh, its only one dungeon and all the other ones are new. They kinda Had to, since the original was in Dalaran and they were gonna use the city again.
Preach, ty for the video. I play a prot warrior in Warlords and am loving it (13/13m). Your video made really sad :/ about warriors, I have been playing Warrior since Vanilla and couldn't fathom switching mains at this point. Do you think what is live in the Legion Alpha is a finished product? In your opinion, does the current state of the class warrant Blizzard do something to remedy the bleak position were in? I was really excited to play Prot in Legion, and I am willing to wait and try it out for myself before I change my mind. Thanks for your answers in advance.
+Vladimir Mujakovic Blizzard wrote two days ago: "General - Tuning has started! [...] At this point, class mechanics are firm, but not necessarily set in stone yet." I wouldn't expect a lot of further mechanic changes at this point, at least nothing major.
How the fuck are you supossed to tank if you cant mitigate. I main a prot pally all the way since the end of cata and i cant see myself not being able to use active mitigation as effectively anymore if the keep this up. The mitigation is what saved me so many times from a guaranteed wipe. In blackhands crucible it was litteraly me 2 healers and a few dps and he had like 5% left and the mitigation is what saved the healers from running out of mana and me from diying. Mitigation plays a core role in tanking and if you arent able to even do that, you are litteraly just a shitty dps that has to add taunting into their rotation. I hope they realize their mistake sooner than later so tanks can be actual tanks. It doesnt matter that tanks should rely on a healer much more often. In fact if they need to rely on healers more, dps would all die and its just gonna make litteraly every add wipe the run. Using mitigation right is the key aspect of tanking. I should know ..every alt of mine that can
Every alt of mine that can tank does so just for insta ques :p. So i have like 3-4 diff tanks that i play and i use mitigation on all of them all the time. When i raid i NEED the mitigation so healers dont need to focus on me more. I don't understand blizz thinking when they want tanks to rely more on healers it's absolutely absurd. They are just asking for even the top guilds to not even want to do the raids because they litteraly are unable to complete them. This is litteraly game breaking and defeats the purpose of even havig a tank
But then again the artifacts prolly have a role in the mitigation and since he didnt really cover it well...take what he says with some salt cause first he was sick and second hes prolly pissed at wod as are every single person. (I was actually looking forward to wod with the garrisons when we were still in mop. I dont like how everything is right there but its the easiest way to make gold so why complain :p)
do you think having mitigation give you more rage would fix the prot warrior? basically incentivising you to use mitigation at high damage points correctly?
So you want to run in and have an easy mode tank experience but then you'd complain it's to easy. Harder is better and having a decent group is how it should have always stayed. People like you confuse Blizzard as you want hard then when it's hard you want it easy, I think it's time for you to stop playing mmo's.
I'm upvoting this because this is the same vibe I'm getting. When he reviews the faceroll classes, "They feel great, I really love them". Reviews the technical classes, "I just get smashed and die". Yet he claims that the mobs should be hitting harder. Honestly, WoTLK is when I played 3 tanks at a time. WoTLK tank was loads of fun. I tanked all TBC too but not as hardcore as WoTLK. This, essentially, is looking like it's going back to WoTLK era tanking. Which, considering so many people quit post LK and are coming back, I'd assume it was a good idea to go back to something they're familiar with.
That's not what he's complaining about. At least I don't see him complaining about easy being too easy nor does he find the "faceroll" classes interesting. I mean most of the bad things about tanks in Legion are about their kit. They no longer have any way to be significantly better than your average tank. The skill ceiling is so low, there's no advanced mechanics (like breath of sindragosa) on any of the tanks. And in Legion they need to rely on the healers so much that it gets very very troublesome when you happen to have a below average healer. Because now you actually need a lot of external healing as a tank especially in a raid environment where it actually matters.
I agree with you. He wants tanks to feel indestructible but playing the game like that is just not fun and sets a meta for elitist behavior like Preachers.
Chris A Well, it's kind of fun. I rather enjoy getting all the adds and mowing them down with aoe. That's why I loved leveling as prot pally. But yeah... in raids or whatnot, it loses it's fun factor quickly. You want to be known as the good tank. The one that doesn't let random adds get away or can position properly for max dps. Shit, most the tank I've ran into nowadays don't even face the back of the boss towards DPS. That's like tank 101. However, most the DPS don't know to get behind the boss either.
But that's the point and the reason why WoD is garbage. You have to depend on your group it isn't a single player game. What ever happen with needing to have good healers, good dps, and good tanks? This is why the random queue system is broken.
Have you tried having people use active CC like back in vanilla? It's not been clear to me whether that was partially the intent with a bunch of the healing and tanking changes.
This sounds amazing to me. Sounds like tanks will rely on their team as a whole. Everybody will. Rough start at first? Sure. Better than alot those tanks out there not needing anybody, creates a terrible mindset in my opinion.
+STAKz X It means that no matter how skilled you are, you will suck. Does that make sense? Do you like feeling you make no progress and let others have that satisfaction?
I understand that, it's more of a team based skill now. It's not about me me me me. I see alot less pugging going on here. You Will Want To Make Lasting Friends So You Can Play together. Sounds like a really good plan to bring back "multiplayer". It's not about individual skill, it's about team skill. Something that was lost years ago in this game. Remember when: if the tank beat dps, that meant dps was doing awful. I'm not saying go back to where the tank had no power at all, but it's gotten ridiculous over the years. There is balance.
STAKz X I absolutely remember that, Stak. It may sound impossible to newer players, but there was a time when leveling as a prot pally took a really long time. I leveled one as an alt in BC, and it kind of felt like I was a turtle with how I was taking little damage but those mobs took forever to die xD
You make quite a few interesting points. The one thing that comes to mind for me is my recent experience with WoD. As a preamble I'll admit that I have been away from the game for a good long time (Last time I really played was in WotLK - with a brief stint towards the end of Cata). So I have missed a lot of the content and changes in between. I had got 100 and got some gear (Mostly LFR and some crafted stuff) when an old friend begged me to come tank a HFC normal alt run for them. I was very clear that I had nothing more than a basic knowledge of the encounters (not much more than don't stand in X) and not much WoD experience with my class - Prot Paladin. Long story made short we cleared the raid without too much fuss (a few wipes, but nothing serious). This was with me being an (within the context) inexperienced and probably undergeared tank. Honestly it didn't feel to me like I had accomplished anything. I had simply gone along for a few hours and collected some loot. The MT had done most of the work, probably a fair share of what I was supposed to do as well. I would like to compare this to my first Kara clear back in TBC. As a tank back then (and this applied to just about all the roles), I had to make sure that not only did I reach certain points in gearing, but that I had enough knowledge of each encounter as well as my class's abilities and limitations. I needed to know what I was capable of and how to deal with the various mechanics of the fights to even have a chance of clearing the raid. BUT... I wasn't alone in that. It wasn't a case of if I as the tank was ready the raid was a guaranteed success. Assuming the dps were doing what they were supposed to, the healers still had to be prepared in a similar way as well. The tank wasn't an island with the rest just a supporting cast. Basically, there was a large chance to fail if everyone wasn't on the ball, which I feel is missing from the current game's design. The point I'm trying to make is that I feel as if tanking lacks a sense of accomplishment (which is what I gather from your view on Legion as well). In older expansions (as in Vanilla to WotLK - my personal experience, I can't say for other expansions) you would feel like you did something well when you managed to keep aggro on the extra mobs or managed to survive (with the help of your healer) a burst of damage. Now it all feels too scripted and predictable. This, I think, has to do with both class and encounter design. The homogenisation of tank classes, while necessary to some extent, has also made it rather unrewarding to actually play a certain class. I believe there are better ways to approach this. PS: I'm not saying Blizzard should return to the TBC model or somesuch, but having some clear definition in what different tanks can do would, to my mind, bring some excitement and challenge back to tanking. The TBC model was flawed, but it had some great features (think of tanking Maiden as a paladin, or Leotheras as a warrior, for instance). These features added a level of depth and challenge that surpassed the basic job of keeping the boss pissed off and having enough defensive stats to survive a few hits.
What do you think of prot pally NOW with basically your "SoR" as your "resource"? Holy Power was always a terrible gimmick. It came out a terrible gimmick. With the way things are working now with how the skills have to work together, it's a much better dynamic than Holy Power. Consecration mechanic and judgement mechanic (2 key skills since release) are now required to enhance your TPS and Mitigation. Sounds like a much much better mechanic than Holy Crapower. We aren't rogues or DKs, we're Paladins. If I wanted someone with that terrible mechanic (just like if I wanted a pet), I would have rolled a char with the mechanic I wanted. And you're not just pushing for the sake of pushing. Your hammer or righteousness (your spam) reduces enemy attacks by 15%. Your AS is TPS until you get your artifact up and then it's mitigation and TPS. Your SoR is your resource as it provides 44% mitigation for a few seconds with like a 30 sec recharge. You have 3 charges of it and Seraphim can possibly use two of those charges. Leaving you figuring out how to keep active mitigation up. Your consecration increases many of your skills. I'm assuming what you did was just pick up the weakest talents (i.e. the talents that require least effort to work) and then claim pallies suck. And they might, but they are definitely not boring and thank god they got rid of that old mechanic. And now I got to your review of the DK and am even more confused. It's more simplistic than the Paladin and the crazy dynamics you have to pay attention to with a Paladin, yet you're giving it props. Did you really like Holy Power that much and are just really upset it's gone or what? Finally got all the way to the end as well. You think the DKs and Druid are cool because their abilities reflect damage back. Pallies have the same EXACT shit, but its called Holy magic. And you literally pressed 3 buttons on ur drood.
I would agree with you there, Damage and threat generation ARE important with tanks. The extra abilities that do not serve a mitigation purpose are there for just that, extra dps and threat generation which without would be incredibly horrid. Having spells that are useless in terms of mitigation allows you to continue damage while choosing to use mitigation cooldowns whenever you want rather than having to use them to keep threat and damage up.
Mordicus To add to that. I think the new SoR change is even more reactive. Because you have to think about when to use them. I do and don't like the old Holy Shield days. You used to have to hit it on every CD. I have a vid where I missed once and someone railed me in the comments. I think it's cool that we should have to keep some mitigation skill up at all times and then use others for extra mitigation. Making Holy Shield a talent just made the class less skill-based. However, for me, it helps with one thing. I live in Japan and on 180+ms, not having to ALWAYS push a button on CD is great. Usually, I have my muscle memory with ping, but still, the game doesn't always register right away and that can cause problems.
I've been playing Prot paladin for around ten years, and many of my prot pally friends don't care for the new system in any way. I've been playing with the new class updates and I find this to be a horrible replacement for holy power. Holy power was quite rewarding IMHO especially when I was able to chain SotR. What exactly was so terribly gimmicky about it?
+Makis Equinox I have been playing pally as well since vanilla. I never liked the addition holy power because it gave you a set rotation and boring play since you would have the mind set solely focused on gaining holy power fast simply to use defensives if you couldn't gain it fast enough your healers were punished. I like the idea of using the CDs at decisive times rather than having to gain holy power in "oh shit moments" before even being able to use a defensive. Basically, it was fun at first but quickly became a hassle.
Mordicus I can understand that, but I don't know if that might have been a diffence in play style or talent selection. I always ran divine purpose which let me have a lot of control over my holy power. I would always chain together some word of glories and such in with my SotR not on just myself, but I would toss some heals out on someone I would see getting low and I saved other raiders a few times. The way it's setup now just seems to not allow for those awesome moments where you can do something awesome with enough focus and skill.
Hope things have changed in recent builds. I've planned on rolling tank in legion, and can't wait for your next video. Any idea about when you're making an updated video?
Literally everything u said in the first 15 minutes is about number tuning. "my mitigations dont matter" buff it and it will. Atleast thats what i got out of what you said.
Hey Preach, nice video! I main a blood dk in WoD, and I've had a little time to test around on the alpha. Simply put I am thrilled at MOST of the the changes they've made so far to the spec! I'm so glad your opinion was in line with mine for the most part. The main positive thing being a way more fleshed out talent tree which actually has legitimate choices! However I'm very unhappy about Gorefiend's Grasp though. That skill is basically what makes Blood viable/amazing in some situations (thogar like you mentioned and I personally loved having it as an extra pull or a way to place adds wherever you like). The 1 minute CD in WoD sometimes seemed too long! I hope they reconsider that change! Thanks for the videos! Looking forward to the More detailed Blood vid!
Some of your complaints struck me more as whining than legitimate concerns. tanking and healing are always rougher at an xpac start. play what you want to play guys, this video was just a waste in my opinion.
In that regard I'd agree, all of the tanks have been set to a similar system, though healers were aggressively homogenized during Cata so this isn't surprising.
Really insightful video, specially for us who don't have much time to review all the alpha videos out there. Any chance you'll do this for the other roles?
Wait wait wait, granted I haven't played for a while but what you're describing in the beginning of the video doesn't sound bad at all. It almost sounds like the difficulty of dungeons are back to what they were in vanilla. Has anyone tried CCing? Does this mean we will finally need to use strategy in dungeons? This might get me to come back to the game if that's true.
There is a very vocal minority that complain when it's too hard. Blizzard have begun to cater for them. They want things like less buttons, raid finder, less social aspects, more solo content. The vast majority doesn't mind a challenge, they want the old school difficulties back. For some reason blizzard has begun to ignore these pleas for wows return to glory in place of these newer players who "don't have time to learn" or "I want epics but don't want to work for it". It's sad :(
there are still difficult aspects to the game. nothing like the vanilla version, where it took 6 months to a year to meet requirements for a raid - which i think they should revisit in some form - but again, there are still challenging aspects. that they've added easier elements should be none of your concern as a person that games for the hard content.
scprepper 50 They won't suck, they are actually quite good, the argument is they are dull with the removal of holy power and similar abilities that essentially do the same thing.
hey preach I first want to say ty for all the work and effort you do for the wow community. you are awesome. I wanted to know what do you think will be the best mythic plus tank would be. my guild wanted me to pick up tanking as off tank in raids but wanted me to mythic plus tank. do you think druid is best tank for this based on your video or do you think dk or monk would be better
Dont look at "new players" ! "new players will not understand, bla bla bla" wtf man ! Noobs will learn someday. We need to see the difference between good and bad tanks, and the bigger it is the better. Learn how to tank or be sh*t, if tanking will be easy - it wont be interesting
+Honeuma Tsubasa I mean tanks shouldnt just be able to faceroll everything. If you get a shit healer that isnt competent then you should be running into problems. The whole point of group gameplay is for the group to work together to accomplish the task. Not one player carries the group while everyone else smashes buttons and eats snacks.
If you have a shit healer, your whole dps army will die -- this is how it should be. If you have a shit healer, your tank (assumed skilled) will most likely die but probably takes a longer time -- this is how it should be. Combined -- if you have a shit healer, your tank will live longer, your dps will die -- you will hit enrage timer (hence why u have enrage in the first place). What happened seems to be -- no matter how good your tank is -- it's purely based on your healer. That doesn't sound like group or teamwork -- that's pinning the job on one fucking type of class and your success is whether or not this class does good. Playing as a group means -- (1) Your tank does well (2) Your healer does well (3) Your DPS does well -- NOT and DEFINITELY NOT (1) Your tank does shit (2) Your healer does well (3) Your dps does meh.
+victor ng Im guessing if you have shit dps you will wipe too. Watching healer vids it sounds like mana costs of heals are pretty high and healers arent just going to be able to heal and heal all day and carry a shit group through content.
I'm keen to hear what your thoughts are on tanking (in general) in legion. I've been lucky enough to have beta access in the last week or so and have enjoyed blood dk quite a lot. So, has it got better, worse, or stayed the same? Go...
Really? Then were is your video explaining the current state of the tanking meta and how the specific classes are handling it? Oh you don't have one? Oh you didn't even get into the Beta? Oh you have nothing to back up your claim and are literally just bitching because your salty your special snowflake class didn't get Preachers Stamp of Approval? Right, got it.
12:35 - Prot Paladin
17:33 - Prot Warrior
24:17 - Vengeance DH
30:28 - Blood DK
36:20 - Guardian Druid
accurate but skipping the beginning is pointless
+iceee420 Absolutely, it's mostly for OCD reasons.
+Splintrax The Cupcakeman fair enough
+Venne Derp Calm the hell down please.
deer the amount of ppl using medical conditions to be funny or justify their stupidity triggers me mb
12:35 - Paladin
17:33 - Warrior
24:18 - Demon Hunter
30:35 - Death Knight
36:22 - Druid
Cata heroic tanking was awesome early. It was so difficult and required a lot of mechanics. Eventually it turned into a faceroll after they were nerfed
Looked for an Tank Comparison this afternoon and couldnt find a good one. So I cooked dinner, came back to the PC, went on UA-cam and there I see this baller delivering! You, good Sir, are the real MVP!
Man, back in the day tanking wasn't about damage, it was about aggro. Managing threat, picking it up, positioning, protecting your allies... You sacrificed all your offensive power and 'play making' potential to become the thing that allows others to succeed. The front line, the vanguard... You were supposed to be extremely hard to kill because you had 3 or 4 other things to worry about... Timers, aggro swaps, positioning, phases, etc. I'm not saying that tanks do literally the work, I was saying that in the same way the DPS doesn't have to worry about aggro, they are allowed to focus on similar things... Now forcing tanks to worry about getting 100-0'd in 3 seconds is a terrible choice.
I liked tanking since BC (even though I tanked in vanilla) and almost every expac was a new challenge, if not an improvement. If what you say is true, this is a massive step-back in terms of tank gameplay.
lol no tanks still had to use cooldowns on certain abilities... and sometimes we're still 1 shot
+Gaius Maecanus and you farmed 5 days consumables so you could raid 2 days while focking dps did this in one evening.
+greenyoshi100 Ok. Never said they didn't, but read what you will.
+the Void My comment wasn't in regard to that, it was in regard to the tank's role in the group. That was the trade off... Becoming an 'unkillable' badass in exchange for being useless almost anywhere else. It was what it was, and for me at least (after vanilla) it was really fun.
+Gaius Maecanus They want to go back to the meme days of "Every wipe is the Priest's Fault" clearly.
New sub here, thanks for taking the time to try out all of the classes in much detail. I main a prot warrior and you basically told me, obviously not what i wanted to hear but the actualy reality of everything
The top comment is such a troll. Preach Gaming said the skill sealing in tanking was much lower in Legion which made tanking boring and unrewarding... people these days with their conclusions ffs
But blizz say that the number one reason people leave WoW is due to their class being changed too much... yet they seem to have completely done it again this expansion.
+1lichfield I hope they don't waste too much dev time on all these class changes that piss off just as many people as they please. Example like reworking DK runes, I hope that change didn't take more than 10 mins of dev time
+1lichfield Yup, and i would have thought blizzard would have learned by now how bad an idea it is to have tanks generate resources based almost exclusively on how much damage they take, but they seem to be doing that again :(.
+IIArchonII same, and the gorefiends grasp change is annoying.
+Volrag I remember the day when overgeared warriors had to take armor off just so they could take damage to create rage.
+1lichfield I think that when they were saying that, it was in the context of a class being changed often during the course of an expansion itself, but most classes are always changed before the beginning of each expansion.
I think the most untouched ones were the rogues for a couple of them, but otherwise I'd be hard pressed to come up with any where time really stood still.
Preach's Legacy videos have some interesting looks into that process, where they focus on a specific classes journey through time.
is it too late for the excuse that it's alpha... and tunning still needs work
+Cornbread ya
+Cornbread This isn't about tuning, it's about the fundamental design.
+Bull true but seeing how they were quick to fix subtlety rogue back when it was first release there's hope for tanks... at least I hope!
+Cornbread unfortunately Arms Warrior in WoD disagrees. Constant player feedback was ignored for the entirety of WoD testing. They only abandon ship when it suits them.
What they did to Arms is why I stopped playing for like a year in WoD. 5.4 arms warrior was perfect.
Watched a few tanking comparison vids lately and yours is, by far, the best, hands down.
Warrior tanking in a nutshell
Full armor = less rage for mitigation , naked = lots of rage for mitigation
So upgrading your armor is not an upgrade but a downgrade for you :)
Anyone ready for some pantless dungeon runs as a warrior??
my huge dong will make them attack out of jealousy. or, you know, confuse them, since warriors shouldn't have pet snakes.
Ok?
Back in the day, as protection warrior, you had to avoid parry and dodge like the plague, as it absolutely butchered your rage generation. Looks like we're back to it, I suppose Blizzard thought they should go back to Burning Crusade, except they took the wrong parts.
@@heartfang21 stop compensating idiot
+Preach Gaming once they remove the whole low health element of the brewmaster, which they said they are working on doing. Where would you put the brewmaster in this list?
can we get a healing one plz
Preacher... I (Gryphandor) am not sure if you look at the Alpha class forums much but I am trying my hardest to post my issues with the Protection Paladin build after build. I have been a Protection Paladin since Burning Crusade. Most of us want Holy Power back. We want a resource to manage. We feel our rotation is clucky because it doesn't matter what we hit as long as it is off cool down. All that has done is made the Protection Paladin very boring to play. Now in the next build they want to move some talents around and give us Seraphim. All of our feedback and concern got us Seraphim....... Not happy even in the slightest. It isn't going to do anything to improve gameplay other then cost 2 charges of Shield of the Righteous for us to worry about. Oh if they release official Legacy realms nothing will keep me here playing Legion in any progression capacity. I am really trying to understand how any of the developers find this fun or if it is all about just keeping it simple and easy for anyone to play. That then goes against giving us a rewarding complex choice of gameplay. It just doesn't exist for the Protection Paladin. Really hope they wake up and fix this before it is released.
I would be fine with that. My problem is that it is absolutely no fun to play and that we have no meaningful choices to make. That just isn't fair. It is like being overly punished for doing something wrong. I don't even know what level of skill they are trying to design this stuff around.
to be fair, its not like other tanking classes are antal better imo.
Even now, warriors, druids, and Dk's are all quite easy to play i lost all interest in talking in SoO. paladins were the only talking class left that felt like Blizzard wanted talking to be hard. (yet they were severely punished in early HM)
now all you need to do in most raids as a tank is to stand and prevent your own death, while the deeps make all of the fun stuff =\
+WoWznaggels if i understand Preach right prot pala is still prob top tier on the paper..question is if anyone want to play it now
I have played Protection Paladin since BC. Not sure who these changes are geared toward. Not any player that wants meaningful gameplay or choices that matter. So this Legion version of the Protection Paladin isn't for me. I really hope Blizzard sees the error of their ways before it is too late to do anything about it. I really do.
Not in the alpha, but the removal of holy power (finally!) is the only thing bringing me back to the class I mained from TBC and Wrath and into Cata.
Adding a resource is fine, but please...no combo points.
Just wanted to share another perspective.
I hate to be that guy but I just liked when Dks healed, warriors and pallies blocked, and druids took less damage to make up for not having block or parry. If they change how tanks work every single xpac they are going to have scaling issues just like they have for the last 7ish years. My major reasoning for switching to fury when I played was because tanking in MoP just had me feeling like a dps with a fuckload of health.
I could just be a salty vet but I thought it was cool when tanks had double the health of dps, didn't take shit for damage unless they were intended to and had to make due with basic small cooldowns to take as little as possible and big ones to not get crushed by high damage attacks. There was a definite art to being stalwart in times passed and tanks that were shitty were easy to spot.
+Strongside Agree, I've gone back to tbc servers and the difference is even more dramatic than your comment suggests.
Any overall update on the tanking scene in Legion now that we're that much closer to launch?
Nope you are spot on with how tanking feels in Legion :(. Please get on the alpha forums and make your voice heard Preach. We need some help getting them to stop this train wreck. I am a Prot warrior main but I dont know for how much longer.
+dewcodered88 Preach is a EU player. Blizz only responds on the NA forums. Which you can only access if you have a NA account that's flagged for alpha.
Satan Ugh that is such a bummer :(
+dewcodered88 this is how he voice his opinion (also it's confirmed there are devs who watch his videos)
+dewcodered88 Never thought I'd say this, but rolling a bear seems like it might be appealing. The changes for all the classes are really disappointing.
Lightup I sure hope they listen :( and I hear ya Michael Greer, Bear or Vengeance will prolly be my main if I decide to even bother.
it seems that Stephen Frost has been able to toss his opinions into the game design more frequently than i thought. the overall changes to the tanking:healing synergy has been ripped directly out of wildstar's book.
you'll find that, hopefully if blizzard stays true, the skill requirement for the playerbase will rise. the dps will have to not stand in anything, if they do they won't get healed. the healers will have to use their tools properly to keep the tank alive. the tanks will need to use their actives to reduce the mana consumption of their healer.
i can understand why someone from a world first position looking into the future can see this as a bad change for the playerbase as a whole. i however disagree. the further away from wrath of the litchking heroics the gameplay gets the better.
then melees are kinda fucked aren't they legion encounters are not melee friendly :D
+Loquendero Amv yet they added more melee specs to the game:/
Raybeze because fuck logic :D
ahh, so that's where frost went! I was wondering that. lol
***** you didn't read what i commented. well done. you twisted someone's statement to fit your own opinion.
Soo tanks' survival being dependent on their own skill was a problem? And now their survival is just dependent on largely the healers' skill instead, meaning if your healer is shit you literally can't do anything but die? Sounds like some quality changes to me
Are we having Healer and DPS vids too preach?
hope youll feel better in the coming days preach
I'd love to hear a more up-to-date tanking video from you Preach! As I understand, the specs has changed a fair bit since alpha and been improved.
My mane concern is there are hardly enough tanks around as it is. If they make tanks boring than LFR and dungeon finder is going to be twice as long as it should be.
@Preachgaming are you going to do a follow up to tanking? I really wana main tank for competitive 5 mans in the xpac. Loved tanking 5 mans for many years and sad to hear this about tanks...
This reminds me a bit of how tanking was in BC's Magister's Terrace, where you had to have a CC class among your DPS to get past even the thrash mobs, let alone the bosses, and I think this is what Blizz is pushing towards (and the BC nostalgia dungeon event seems like a hint at this). If you think about it, this is a compromise between having meaningful aggro and not forcing people to get threat meters if they want to play so much as a dungeon. I remember when I was fear-leashing in BC (and occasionally banishing) I felt a rank above the "muh deeps" crowd who just rolled their faces on the keyboard to get the most damage out, which is admittedly valuable but I'd rather have 10-15% less dps and have something else to do than focusing on my rotation like a mantra and staying away from flashy things.
So as a tank, sure, it sucks donkeyballs, and I absolutely agree with that because the control you had over your health bar was spread out among the others, which is suicidal in pugs. On the other hand, this will force the healers and especially the dps players to step up their game or fail at the game.
KAREN DESU
If you think about it, Preacher isn't whining because of the changes but because what it will cause. See, every time a game increases the minimum skill level for it to remain enjoyable, some people will drop out and proceed to bitch and whine in the forums, as well as into the ears of Preacher in search of justification. So in a sense, Preacher is already having a headache from the wailing he will have to listen to, and I feel sorry for him for that. He's doing a lot of work to educate and inform people, which is really all the help he can give to all those who need to get better at an already forgiving game.
I agree. I played mainly in BC and early Wotlk then took a break for a few years, on coming back I was surprised that dungeons had become mass aoe fests. It used to be that the party leader would mark targets for kill order and cc, which I was pleased preach was doing in this video. I can understand where preach is coming from though as that style which it looks like they are moving back towards, while fun, isn't really as viable with random pugs. I would expect to see normal and heroics becoming more facerolls again as people get some gear but mythic and mythic+ requiring more cc and focused killing as the difficulty ramps up.
This coming at the expense of tanks fun though does suck.
If tanking is how it was in BC, then hell yes. The real tanks will shine through the filth. Tanking isnt as easy any more. Now you have to be aware of your surroundings and make sure your OT (In raids) is ready to flick taunt if you get smacked really hard and need a sec to get topped off. Or make sure your Group members are CCing what they need to CC to prevent a wipe. This is how tanking should be.
because errybody who plays world of warcraft is all under one unified hivemind
Ilysanth Amaranthine Well Duh! lol. He's one of those "Baddies".He probably just sits in BGs "Commanding" the team to do things while he hides all game.
Thank-you. I really appreciate you going and compiling all of the information on tanks currently in the alpha and shows us where they stand and how they are playing so far. The biggest thing that is preventing me from looking forward to and buying Legion is the current state of the tanks from what i have read on the alpha forums and from what i have seen here. Hope Blizzard fixes the current problems they have made for the tanks on the alpha.
where does brewmaster fit in?
Thank you for the video. Do you think you could make an updated video about the best old world raid/dungeon solo classes too? I'm keeping my DK, but I would like to see how Paladin, DH, Hunter, and Druid have fared in Legion.
Why not make bosses hit harder on the tanks instead of gutting it to unfun-ness.
Why do Blizzard think that casual players want a brainless button spam? It's. Not. Fun. Stop it.
+Skroot go tank a mythic boss. They hurt. Heroic boss? less. Normal boss? Even less. Same thing in legion.
Hey, wondering if you will do another video now that the pre-patch is out and Legion is soon upon us? Because there are some changes to warrior that makes it (slightly) more playable, namely the Vengeance talent (gives you some kind of rotation to Ignore pain and doing some dmg, still pretty shit compared to how fun it was in WoD and I'm saying this as a fellow mainer of prot warrior).
What's worrying to me is that if this is how tanking "works" atm, all the encounters will be designed around this method. Therefore, if they want to change how tanking works at this point they seemingly would have to change every encounter that has been designed thus far. This leads me to believe that they'd be tentative to change tanking at this point. I hope I'm wrong, someone correct me if I am.
While I'm trying to keep an open mind and not cast my final judgement until I try it for myself, this news makes me dread playing one of my favorite classes: Protection Warrior. Does the "rage generated by damage taken" thing mean that disc priests can no longer cast Power Word: Shield on the warrior?
so , dungeons are actually hard now?
+MyViolador Umm what?
+MyViolador They might be nerfed pending release.
+MyViolador Apparently most people here, like MyViolador, think fun == difficulty. Not to mention that having five lame 30% flat reduction buttons means skill
+Preachgaming will you be doing a healer comparison? thanks!
Spot on, I hope Bliz watches this vid....
Will you be covering the brewmaster after you try out the changes before the expansion drops?Warrior and Monk tanking are currently my bread and butter to making WoW fun for me. I am currently leveling a druid before the expansion drops but i would really love to play brew in raids and be almost on par. I love to mid/max my classes i play and if brew doesn't compair and druid is hands down the better tanking spec then im most likely to play that.
"i dont feel like a tank, i feel like i have aggro, i feel like i am doing very poor dps". Isn't that what a tank is supposed to do? Yes it is!
I think you missed the memo 8 years ago. Threat isn't the thing for tanks anymore, AM is. If they take away AM but dont add threat back in, thats just lowering the skill ceiling
Hey preach, have things gotten better in the last two months? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
I am finally done. I have abandoned my Protection Paladin main of 11 years for a Fury / Protection Warrior. As of the current BETA build I am still not tanking.
likewise...wtf is prot pally now
MagePowa A boring meat shield with absolutely no meaningful gameplay. That is what Protection Paladin is. I do want to add that the Protection Warrior isn't much better but Fury is a ton of FUN! That is why we play games.
i am considering going bear or dps all together for legion I have played pally since wolk and now I'm just like wtf have you done to my pally blizzard
is prot warrior fun atleast? i main prot war right now and i do think switching to fury in elgion but it would be shame to leave him if hes utter boring shit
I could literally copy and paste this, and it would match my tragically upsetting feels. I've been playing this since '06. I honestly don't know what to do, I'm thinking I might have to go play monk which i don't hate, but I really don't want to main it. I might end up playing my DK, but I'd really liek to have a healing spec as I don't care to DPS. I'm sorry for my Protadin brothers
will you be doing a Legion Healer Comparison ranked video??
I just signed up for Patreon just for Preach!
just wondering about the paladin. from what I seen, is it like the wrath model where you just follow the 696 rotation and nothing else really matters?
lmao "Pain" is the Demon Hunter resource? Who the fuck is approving these names? I would think Fel Energy would make the most sense for the resource name. Maybe somebody better versed in the the lore can correct me on that.
craaawling in my skiiin.
PRIEST! HEY, PRIEST! THESE WOUNDS, THEY WILL NOT HEAL!
+Boss Galka yo...warlock fucking FEAR IS HOW I FALL
CON-FLA-GRATE IS REALLLLLL
I could see their resource being "hatred" or "malevolence" but fucking pain? Thats so lame lol like a dh feels pain and is all of the sudden empowered to do cool things. What a lame concept.
preacher any new thoughts on tanking as beta has worn on?
I like that bear tanks looks good so far. I've considered leveling a druid before Legion hits.
I'm already level 68 on my bear. (I have two druids, shame they're in different realms, but all four specs will me mines, muahahahaha, hahaha, haha, wait druids shouldn't be evil what am I doing...)
Is the new bear model bigger than the old one or does the video just make it seem that way? Not really seen it in action for legion.
: -) Guardian Druid on top. Looks like I will have fun in Legion.
grizzly and gruesome muahahaha
I don't need transmog. I like my big bear butt. Claws and mouth for attacking. Grrrr
Does healing feel better at lower level because of these changes to active mitigation? In 5 mans at early WoD and especially later on, if you had a good tank, and your dps weren't idiots, you were nearly completely unnecessary, and I would often find myself going balance on my druid or shadow on my priest, and just spot healing if necessary.
Perhaps they've taken it too far, but it would nice for healers to actually have something to do in a decent group other than /dance and browse through atlas loot.
remember when Felblade was baseline for Demon Hunters? I do.
Howbout a state of the DPS in Legion, Preach? Would love to know what you think the line up would be involving My favorites, Frost mage, Demon Lock and Shadow Priest.
+Richard Jeski Oh, and Fury Warrior...lol
less good tanks had huge problems.
Sounds good to me.
If you cant even play LEGION WoW, a fuckin expansion, which has 3 buttons like it is almost a MOBA and still fail, then you derserve to get punished.
less good tanks = about 90% of all tanks in the game aka majority will have hard time in dungs/raids becuse the tanks cant play properly and therfor have less fun and the need for good tanks will get crazy high and loads of guilds will get destroyed etc...sure maby dont matter to u becuz u prob got a good tank in your community but srsly..your not the only palyer in the game
***** well the problem is a big part of wows playerbase cant play properly and then making the role unplayable if u cant play properly is a bad idea...like if u can do dps rotation properly u will do 100k but if u fail a little u will only do 10k...seems unbalanced
Will you do a video of the new Brewmaster Monk and your opinion on it?
Where's Iggle Piggle?
+Timmy Agerberg In your wardrobe...
Please no D:
he said that bulwark will return soon when putting him there
+Timmy Agerberg Hannable Peggle is coming for you! Run bro!
+Timmy Agerberg He's in the background in the beginning of the Mage Legacy video, and then hilariously missing replaced with the shield at the end of it xD So homeboy has been on the road for awhile now lol
Can you do a ranged dps comparison? I'm trying to really decide what to play in legion and typically I have rotated around a lot between the 3 clothies. I'm just wondering from how legion looks if shadow priests will not be second class citizen dps this time around and can be competitive with mages and locks. From your experience do you think that the casters have been competitive with each other / melee dps choices? Also following with that how much do you think racials will play into these classes/specs? [especially the demo rework complimenting with orcs pet bonus.]
after reviewing video, I believe Shadow Priests are looking to be one of the better options. Though I dont believe any are currently broken/un-viable. It all dpeends on your playstyle and what aspects of the game you enjoy most. If you're in it for levelling, I'd suggest the lock. If you're in it for the community I'd recommend the priest, since maybe you can still offheal (no idea how they're going to do that yet, if they will) if you want to aim for ease of transit, Be a mage. Your satisfaction relies on how you can identify your own desires, and pick based on that.
Ill admit I really enjoyed mage for teleports and such, also it seemed pretty straightforward and its never been super useless in pvp which I dabble in. I just love worgen and feel I am always lacking because the racials werent as strong as human.
Blizzard please listen to Preacher right here
+kalibos this is such a lame video, how are you even agreeing to this? Maybe you should stay in WoD while the rest of us go out and actually have a challenging dungeon, nub!
+airbornerecon11 yup lets just all play classes that are incredibly dull to play.
+airbornerecon11 Did you even listen to the video? Re-watch starting at :39. GAMEPLAY. GAMEPLAY. Having the dungeons be CHALLENGING is completely different than having an INTERESTING play-style. God damn.
***** k
My 2 cents on prot warriors, keep in mind I don't have alpha access, so this is just thoughts on what I read on build notes and my interpretation of Preach's feedback.
Would protection warriors be somewhat better if we'd use blocks and critical blocks as the main rage generator alongside shield slam and revenge?
We already have 10 rage from critical blocks on live, so plus an extra 5 per normal block may be beneficial. But that might put us at a disadvantage when it comes to single target fights? Perhaps up the rage generated by revenge when it only hits one target, other option is to hope for devaste procs and you shield slam more. I really despise that last one though.
I don't know how I feel about this Ignore Pain, to me it looks like they want us to see it as a 'larger' cooldown. Perhaps like brewmasters used their Guard ability? If someone would offer some insight on it, that would be very much appreciated.
I agree with Preach on the fact they should have left more than one offensive talent tier in there.
Currently a 13/13M Protection paladin.. This video makes me want to cry. Removing Holy Power gives us nothing to manage, its just pressing the buttons that are available carelessly, where is the skill required? Why the hell would anyone want to tank anymore? How can I optimize myself? I really hope some changes come about because I've tanked the entire time I've played this game and I feel crushed. Might as well stop calling it the skill ceiling and call it the floor because it seems that no matter how much you research or prepare, it'll barely make a difference in what you can bring to the table in this model.
+Charles Ayres Do you ever actually manage you holy power?.... be serious do you ever actually manage it.
+Baws Life I never stop managing it. I play Seraphim on every fight so you need to be pooling at the right times to keep a high uptime as well as ensuring it's available for active mitigation at key points on fights like Kilrogg, Mannoroth, and Zakuun. Holy power pooling can be extremely useful on fights like Archimonde where he doesn't actually attack while casting Wrought Chaos, Allures, or other spells so you can load up on it, and then drop it out with back to back SotRs for 6 seconds of strong physical mitigation while dragging him to a new position. Managing this resource is what (should) dictate a lot of your play style currently. The more holy power you can generate, the more you can mitigate, deal out damage, and keep yourself alive with healing. That management is what governs a lot of my quick decisions in combat and I love how it took me a while to get to where I am tanking now. If anything, Legion tanking seems much more like playing whack-a-mole with whatever abilities are available rather than having a reactionary rotation that can be tuned for different encounters.
Charles Ayres I feel like your taking holy power a lot bit to seriously if you know what im saying. Building holy power is really easy and doesn't have to be pooled, There can be 5-3 secs left till a shred armor or any of those other mechanics like it and you can gain full holy power before it goes off, and taking Seraphim is just to make it harder on yourself, Seraphim is prob the only thing that makes tanking harder other than that its no big problem. My point is holy power did not make anything harder or easier unless you wanted it to (Seraphim if you did want it to). Now if it were a monk where you might actually run out of a resource like energy or chi then it would be a problem, but with a pally you just always gonna have something up to generate holy power.
+Baws Life ^PvE People take most stuff as far too hard in the first place.
Holy Power was never hard to manage if it can get generated by spells.
Hey Preach. Love all the vids! Just wanted to ask if u feel this list/ranking is still representable as of right now or whether it has changed over the past 1½ month?
Rip Pala.. guess it's time to reroll before turning into a mindles baboon hammering the keyboard for no reason at all
+WoWznaggels Yep. I hopped on for a few hours after being away for months now and can still do the rotation. It's pretty bad, now it looks worse.
+Wilhelm Peters paladin was since vanilla by design a "simple class to play" you can look for blue posts stating this.
I'm not saying that it's hard in WoD, just that your other buttons apart from SotR do something meaningful, not like in this iteration of legion
+Wilhelm Peters not realy, other buttons generate holy power and you push them when they shine in WoD there is no other interaction. If Shield procs you press it. What is now in Legion is simply WoD Paladin minus Holy Power and SotR on a CD thats it. This class had least amount of changes.
Also Preacher is a noobcake for not saying a simple thing "this is not final" and even if this is final it is just a WoD Paladin. Paladin has and had 1 fucking active mitigation skill in SotR because Word of Glory/Flame is a joke. So nothing changes here. Lets be realistic and not "legion is bad because reasons" fucking realistic.
If we are realistic:
Monk changed shitloads, Warrior changed a lot, Druid changed shitloads and DK changed shitloads. One would assume a) Paladin is not changing a lot because it is good, simply good.
About active mitigation. Paladin has flat %DMG reduction, this class can be simple to play but this is the best fucking and most reliable AM in the whole game. You take less damage, nothing can beat this why ?
Mechanics that make you dodge hits like "dodge" or makes you exposed to spikey damage like parry are shit. Because you have % chance it will happen and your healer doesn't know it will happen so every dodge is just overhealing on the healers. Yes nothing more or less. So Flat % reduction and you taking hits but in smaller chunks is actually much better for healers and their mana than stuff like 100% or 60% dodge.
What about absorbs ? Well aborbs are also good but this is gear dependant / mechanic dependant either tanks absorb all damage and healers do nothing either they absorb nothing. So it is a mechanic that is hard to balance to make good. %DMG reduction is the best way to handle AM in game and if you want to have progression raids happen smooth probably you will have to have a Paladin or Two as tanks.
what about using cc, is that still a thing? it used to be required for older content before it was turned in to tank trains railing through dungeons eating the dps alive on the charts.
Wrath tanking was the best imo
WotLK tanking, with the exception of blood DKs, was all about your gear. Most tanks had very low impact active mitigation outside of things like shield wall. So I would definitely have to disagree. Active Mitigation was one of the things that the last three expansions have done right.
Best thing about Wrath tanking was that you could pull all the fucking mobs and still live trough it. At same time it was exciting but boring. To me tanking was best at start of Cataclysm.
I agree with you and wrath tanking, pally was the most entertaining of all.
As you have recently released the Healers so close to the release of legion, have you changed any conclusion's since making this detailed vid?
Thanks Preach, depressing as fuck, but thanks.
So this is a few months old now, have things gotten any better?
As someone who plays prot paladin, I can't really relate to anything Preach is saying. I can't imagine the protadin that came out from this is the same one, there's so much cool stuff to it.
I may be fairly biased though, still, saying that Divine Steed is the peak of the spec is just completely ignoring how you actually play it to its full potential. So I can only assume it's out of date, which might mean protadin has indeed gotten fairly better.
tbh i enjoyed prot paladin in the last patch more than in this patch, the only word i can use to describe it is boring.
Unpopular opinion:
I am thankful Paladin's are losing Holy Power. I tanked through wrath and was known as one of the best tank on my (admittedly small) server.
When they added Holy Power, I hated it. I still hate it.
And I'm glad it's gone. Fuck that mechanics. I am not a rogue and I don't need combo points.
Is that an add on, showing you your health / resources / debuffs?
If so, what is it called?
It looks nice and light.
HAVE YOU GIVEN ALL THIS FEEDBACK TO BLIZZ ABOUT TANKING?
So you would be reluctant tanking randoms as a Prot Warrior or with any of these?
Is Prot pally just boring to play or is it weak as well? Sounded like it was very powerful, just a bit of a yawn.
When you were on Blood it looked like you were really living on the edge (very low HP) very often; is that part of the spec or was that particular fight just hard/healer weak?
I was trying to decide between Frost DK and prot pally to main... I'm discouraged about pally now but if it's just a matter of being boring I might reconsider - I'll trade boredom for survivability if group content is as hard as you make it out to be
They are bringing back violet hold?
Please god no.
+SSJ4Nappa lol it's totally different... like the bosses look slightly different...
+xxJOHNLIKESPIExx and the portals are green now and unleash demons not draconians
shit man, I didn't think of that.
reskinned old content majority people didnt like? fuck yea im in. Kappa
+SSJ4Nappa Eh, its only one dungeon and all the other ones are new. They kinda Had to, since the original was in Dalaran and they were gonna use the city again.
Well, this is disappointing...
Yep, that's WoW.
+luciano wendling ;^(
So tanks cannot just faceroll through a dungeon while the healer watches netflix?
Good!
Preach, ty for the video. I play a prot warrior in Warlords and am loving it (13/13m). Your video made really sad :/ about warriors, I have been playing Warrior since Vanilla and couldn't fathom switching mains at this point. Do you think what is live in the Legion Alpha is a finished product? In your opinion, does the current state of the class warrant Blizzard do something to remedy the bleak position were in? I was really excited to play Prot in Legion, and I am willing to wait and try it out for myself before I change my mind. Thanks for your answers in advance.
+Vladimir Mujakovic Blizzard wrote two days ago: "General - Tuning has started! [...] At this point, class mechanics are firm, but not necessarily set in stone yet."
I wouldn't expect a lot of further mechanic changes at this point, at least nothing major.
How the fuck are you supossed to tank if you cant mitigate. I main a prot pally all the way since the end of cata and i cant see myself not being able to use active mitigation as effectively anymore if the keep this up. The mitigation is what saved me so many times from a guaranteed wipe. In blackhands crucible it was litteraly me 2 healers and a few dps and he had like 5% left and the mitigation is what saved the healers from running out of mana and me from diying. Mitigation plays a core role in tanking and if you arent able to even do that, you are litteraly just a shitty dps that has to add taunting into their rotation. I hope they realize their mistake sooner than later so tanks can be actual tanks. It doesnt matter that tanks should rely on a healer much more often. In fact if they need to rely on healers more, dps would all die and its just gonna make litteraly every add wipe the run. Using mitigation right is the key aspect of tanking. I should know ..every alt of mine that can
Every alt of mine that can tank does so just for insta ques :p. So i have like 3-4 diff tanks that i play and i use mitigation on all of them all the time. When i raid i NEED the mitigation so healers dont need to focus on me more. I don't understand blizz thinking when they want tanks to rely more on healers it's absolutely absurd. They are just asking for even the top guilds to not even want to do the raids because they litteraly are unable to complete them. This is litteraly game breaking and defeats the purpose of even havig a tank
But then again the artifacts prolly have a role in the mitigation and since he didnt really cover it well...take what he says with some salt cause first he was sick and second hes prolly pissed at wod as are every single person. (I was actually looking forward to wod with the garrisons when we were still in mop. I dont like how everything is right there but its the easiest way to make gold so why complain :p)
Name is Leeroy Jenkins, auto-troll. tl;dr
do you think having mitigation give you more rage would fix the prot warrior? basically incentivising you to use mitigation at high damage points correctly?
So you want to run in and have an easy mode tank experience but then you'd complain it's to easy. Harder is better and having a decent group is how it should have always stayed. People like you confuse Blizzard as you want hard then when it's hard you want it easy, I think it's time for you to stop playing mmo's.
I'm upvoting this because this is the same vibe I'm getting. When he reviews the faceroll classes, "They feel great, I really love them". Reviews the technical classes, "I just get smashed and die". Yet he claims that the mobs should be hitting harder. Honestly, WoTLK is when I played 3 tanks at a time. WoTLK tank was loads of fun. I tanked all TBC too but not as hardcore as WoTLK. This, essentially, is looking like it's going back to WoTLK era tanking. Which, considering so many people quit post LK and are coming back, I'd assume it was a good idea to go back to something they're familiar with.
That's not what he's complaining about. At least I don't see him complaining about easy being too easy nor does he find the "faceroll" classes interesting. I mean most of the bad things about tanks in Legion are about their kit. They no longer have any way to be significantly better than your average tank. The skill ceiling is so low, there's no advanced mechanics (like breath of sindragosa) on any of the tanks. And in Legion they need to rely on the healers so much that it gets very very troublesome when you happen to have a below average healer. Because now you actually need a lot of external healing as a tank especially in a raid environment where it actually matters.
I agree with you. He wants tanks to feel indestructible but playing the game like that is just not fun and sets a meta for elitist behavior like Preachers.
Chris A Well, it's kind of fun. I rather enjoy getting all the adds and mowing them down with aoe. That's why I loved leveling as prot pally. But yeah... in raids or whatnot, it loses it's fun factor quickly. You want to be known as the good tank. The one that doesn't let random adds get away or can position properly for max dps. Shit, most the tank I've ran into nowadays don't even face the back of the boss towards DPS. That's like tank 101. However, most the DPS don't know to get behind the boss either.
But that's the point and the reason why WoD is garbage. You have to depend on your group it isn't a single player game.
What ever happen with needing to have good healers, good dps, and good tanks? This is why the random queue system is broken.
Have you tried having people use active CC like back in vanilla? It's not been clear to me whether that was partially the intent with a bunch of the healing and tanking changes.
Further into the video now and seeing people using more active CC and it pleases me.
This sounds amazing to me. Sounds like tanks will rely on their team as a whole. Everybody will. Rough start at first? Sure. Better than alot those tanks out there not needing anybody, creates a terrible mindset in my opinion.
no
+STAKz X I'm weirdly looking forward to being in the first wave of people doing dungeons at launch--in the trenches again!
+STAKz X It means that no matter how skilled you are, you will suck. Does that make sense? Do you like feeling you make no progress and let others have that satisfaction?
I understand that, it's more of a team based skill now. It's not about me me me me. I see alot less pugging going on here. You Will Want To Make Lasting Friends So You Can Play together. Sounds like a really good plan to bring back "multiplayer". It's not about individual skill, it's about team skill. Something that was lost years ago in this game. Remember when: if the tank beat dps, that meant dps was doing awful. I'm not saying go back to where the tank had no power at all, but it's gotten ridiculous over the years. There is balance.
STAKz X I absolutely remember that, Stak. It may sound impossible to newer players, but there was a time when leveling as a prot pally took a really long time. I leveled one as an alt in BC, and it kind of felt like I was a turtle with how I was taking little damage but those mobs took forever to die xD
You make quite a few interesting points. The one thing that comes to
mind for me is my recent experience with WoD. As a preamble I'll admit
that I have been away from the game for a good long time (Last time I
really played was in WotLK - with a brief stint towards the end of
Cata). So I have missed a lot of the content and changes in between.
I had got 100 and got some gear (Mostly LFR and some crafted stuff) when an old friend begged me to come tank a HFC normal alt run for them. I was very clear that I had nothing more than a basic knowledge of the encounters (not much more than don't stand in X) and not much WoD experience with my class - Prot Paladin. Long story made short we cleared the raid without too much fuss (a few wipes, but nothing serious).
This was with me being an (within the context) inexperienced and probably undergeared tank. Honestly it didn't feel to me like I had accomplished anything. I had simply gone along for a few hours and collected some loot. The MT had done most of the work, probably a fair share of what I was supposed to do as well.
I would like to compare this to my first Kara clear back in TBC. As a tank back then (and this applied to just about all the roles), I had to make sure that not only did I reach certain points in gearing, but that I had enough knowledge of each encounter as well as my class's abilities and limitations. I needed to know what I was capable of and how to deal with the various mechanics of the fights to even have a chance of clearing the raid. BUT... I wasn't alone in that. It wasn't a case of if I as the tank was ready the raid was a guaranteed success.
Assuming the dps were doing what they were supposed to, the healers still had to be prepared in a similar way as well. The tank wasn't an island with the rest just a supporting cast. Basically, there was a large chance to fail if everyone wasn't on the ball, which I feel is missing from the current game's design.
The point I'm trying to make is that I feel as if tanking lacks a sense of accomplishment (which is what I gather from your view on Legion as well). In older expansions (as in Vanilla to WotLK - my personal experience, I can't say for other expansions) you would feel like you did something well when you managed to keep aggro on the extra mobs or managed to survive (with the help of your healer) a burst of damage. Now it all feels too scripted and predictable. This, I think, has to do with both class and encounter design.
The homogenisation of tank classes, while necessary to some extent, has also made it rather unrewarding to actually play a certain class. I believe there are better ways to approach this.
PS: I'm not saying Blizzard should return to the TBC model or somesuch, but having some clear definition in what different tanks can do would, to my mind, bring some excitement and challenge back to tanking. The TBC model was flawed, but it had some great features (think of tanking Maiden as a paladin, or Leotheras as a warrior, for instance). These features added a level of depth and challenge that surpassed the basic job of keeping the boss pissed off and having enough defensive stats to survive a few hits.
What do you think of prot pally NOW with basically your "SoR" as your "resource"? Holy Power was always a terrible gimmick. It came out a terrible gimmick. With the way things are working now with how the skills have to work together, it's a much better dynamic than Holy Power. Consecration mechanic and judgement mechanic (2 key skills since release) are now required to enhance your TPS and Mitigation. Sounds like a much much better mechanic than Holy Crapower. We aren't rogues or DKs, we're Paladins. If I wanted someone with that terrible mechanic (just like if I wanted a pet), I would have rolled a char with the mechanic I wanted.
And you're not just pushing for the sake of pushing. Your hammer or righteousness (your spam) reduces enemy attacks by 15%. Your AS is TPS until you get your artifact up and then it's mitigation and TPS. Your SoR is your resource as it provides 44% mitigation for a few seconds with like a 30 sec recharge. You have 3 charges of it and Seraphim can possibly use two of those charges. Leaving you figuring out how to keep active mitigation up. Your consecration increases many of your skills. I'm assuming what you did was just pick up the weakest talents (i.e. the talents that require least effort to work) and then claim pallies suck. And they might, but they are definitely not boring and thank god they got rid of that old mechanic.
And now I got to your review of the DK and am even more confused. It's more simplistic than the Paladin and the crazy dynamics you have to pay attention to with a Paladin, yet you're giving it props. Did you really like Holy Power that much and are just really upset it's gone or what? Finally got all the way to the end as well. You think the DKs and Druid are cool because their abilities reflect damage back. Pallies have the same EXACT shit, but its called Holy magic. And you literally pressed 3 buttons on ur drood.
I would agree with you there, Damage and threat generation ARE important with tanks. The extra abilities that do not serve a mitigation purpose are there for just that, extra dps and threat generation which without would be incredibly horrid. Having spells that are useless in terms of mitigation allows you to continue damage while choosing to use mitigation cooldowns whenever you want rather than having to use them to keep threat and damage up.
Mordicus To add to that. I think the new SoR change is even more reactive. Because you have to think about when to use them. I do and don't like the old Holy Shield days. You used to have to hit it on every CD. I have a vid where I missed once and someone railed me in the comments. I think it's cool that we should have to keep some mitigation skill up at all times and then use others for extra mitigation. Making Holy Shield a talent just made the class less skill-based.
However, for me, it helps with one thing. I live in Japan and on 180+ms, not having to ALWAYS push a button on CD is great. Usually, I have my muscle memory with ping, but still, the game doesn't always register right away and that can cause problems.
I've been playing Prot paladin for around ten years, and many of my prot pally friends don't care for the new system in any way. I've been playing with the new class updates and I find this to be a horrible replacement for holy power. Holy power was quite rewarding IMHO especially when I was able to chain SotR.
What exactly was so terribly gimmicky about it?
+Makis Equinox I have been playing pally as well since vanilla. I never liked the addition holy power because it gave you a set rotation and boring play since you would have the mind set solely focused on gaining holy power fast simply to use defensives if you couldn't gain it fast enough your healers were punished. I like the idea of using the CDs at decisive times rather than having to gain holy power in "oh shit moments" before even being able to use a defensive. Basically, it was fun at first but quickly became a hassle.
Mordicus I can understand that, but I don't know if that might have been a diffence in play style or talent selection. I always ran divine purpose which let me have a lot of control over my holy power. I would always chain together some word of glories and such in with my SotR not on just myself, but I would toss some heals out on someone I would see getting low and I saved other raiders a few times.
The way it's setup now just seems to not allow for those awesome moments where you can do something awesome with enough focus and skill.
Hope things have changed in recent builds. I've planned on rolling tank in legion, and can't wait for your next video. Any idea about when you're making an updated video?
Literally everything u said in the first 15 minutes is about number tuning. "my mitigations dont matter" buff it and it will. Atleast thats what i got out of what you said.
Hey Preach, nice video! I main a blood dk in WoD, and I've had a little time to test around on the alpha. Simply put I am thrilled at MOST of the the changes they've made so far to the spec! I'm so glad your opinion was in line with mine for the most part. The main positive thing being a way more fleshed out talent tree which actually has legitimate choices! However I'm very unhappy about Gorefiend's Grasp though. That skill is basically what makes Blood viable/amazing in some situations (thogar like you mentioned and I personally loved having it as an extra pull or a way to place adds wherever you like). The 1 minute CD in WoD sometimes seemed too long! I hope they reconsider that change! Thanks for the videos! Looking forward to the More detailed Blood vid!
Some of your complaints struck me more as whining than legitimate concerns. tanking and healing are always rougher at an xpac start. play what you want to play guys, this video was just a waste in my opinion.
In that regard I'd agree, all of the tanks have been set to a similar system, though healers were aggressively homogenized during Cata so this isn't surprising.
Really insightful video, specially for us who don't have much time to review all the alpha videos out there. Any chance you'll do this for the other roles?
Blizz is making the game more suitable for 12 and 13 year olds
+Nico strawburry Well, looking at the average comment on the forums or any legion video here on youtube, that seems about right.
+human260 hahaha well put. So many complainers lol
TargetSniper365
lol its true tho they want to make the game easier they said it themselves and its sad lol. but w/e
Does the DK feel weird without Blood Tap? I really liked having control over my rune generation and apparently that's now gone.
where is hunter tenacity tanking?
Wait wait wait, granted I haven't played for a while but what you're describing in the beginning of the video doesn't sound bad at all. It almost sounds like the difficulty of dungeons are back to what they were in vanilla. Has anyone tried CCing? Does this mean we will finally need to use strategy in dungeons? This might get me to come back to the game if that's true.
The game is to easy - people vine. The game is too hard - people vine. I say: hard is better than easy.
There is a very vocal minority that complain when it's too hard. Blizzard have begun to cater for them. They want things like less buttons, raid finder, less social aspects, more solo content.
The vast majority doesn't mind a challenge, they want the old school difficulties back. For some reason blizzard has begun to ignore these pleas for wows return to glory in place of these newer players who "don't have time to learn" or "I want epics but don't want to work for it". It's sad :(
+Zag I think you guys didnt get it about WOW. Blizzard created easy contents to drag more people. No one ever asked for easy contents.
there are still difficult aspects to the game. nothing like the vanilla version, where it took 6 months to a year to meet requirements for a raid - which i think they should revisit in some form - but again, there are still challenging aspects. that they've added easier elements should be none of your concern as a person that games for the hard content.
Damn Preacher, you dumped a salt shaker on this video. I appreciate the breakdown, and always look forward to your take on the game.
ok well that sucks i play a prot paly as a main
+scprepper 50 having a 'main' in current year LUL
+Hazel Hawthorne what is that suppose to mean? A majority of wow players have a main.
dafuq does this mean
it means that prot paly's are gunna suc in legion as tanks as far as this test
scprepper 50 They won't suck, they are actually quite good, the argument is they are dull with the removal of holy power and similar abilities that essentially do the same thing.
I love this since it's CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and not just useless hate on legion, keep up the great videos preach!
Is it just me, or are these videos always negative?
Gets more views when you make controversy.
You not seen him gush sticky glory over the shadow preist / fury warrior?
I have seen it. Don't worry. But only two specs out of how many?
Wolgore Wolf
He likes the bear, the ret paladin, the affliction / demonology warlock etc.
I see.
hey preach I first want to say ty for all the work and effort you do for the wow community. you are awesome. I wanted to know what do you think will be the best mythic plus tank would be. my guild wanted me to pick up tanking as off tank in raids but wanted me to mythic plus tank. do you think druid is best tank for this based on your video or do you think dk or monk would be better
Dont look at "new players" ! "new players will not understand, bla bla bla" wtf man ! Noobs will learn someday. We need to see the difference between good and bad tanks, and the bigger it is the better. Learn how to tank or be sh*t, if tanking will be easy - it wont be interesting
+Karifax Game lacks tanks let alone good tanks as it is though.
do see your point.
+Karifax NO man! DUMB DOWN THE GAME! I CANT FINISH THIS DUNGEON BUT I DESERVE THE SAME GEAR!
well if your tank died, and you did everything right than the healer failed... thats good gameplay, and how it should be.
No, no its not.
+Honeuma Tsubasa I mean tanks shouldnt just be able to faceroll everything. If you get a shit healer that isnt competent then you should be running into problems. The whole point of group gameplay is for the group to work together to accomplish the task. Not one player carries the group while everyone else smashes buttons and eats snacks.
couldnt agree more.. these changes seem fine..
If you have a shit healer, your whole dps army will die -- this is how it should be. If you have a shit healer, your tank (assumed skilled) will most likely die but probably takes a longer time -- this is how it should be. Combined -- if you have a shit healer, your tank will live longer, your dps will die -- you will hit enrage timer (hence why u have enrage in the first place).
What happened seems to be -- no matter how good your tank is -- it's purely based on your healer. That doesn't sound like group or teamwork -- that's pinning the job on one fucking type of class and your success is whether or not this class does good. Playing as a group means -- (1) Your tank does well (2) Your healer does well (3) Your DPS does well -- NOT and DEFINITELY NOT (1) Your tank does shit (2) Your healer does well (3) Your dps does meh.
+victor ng Im guessing if you have shit dps you will wipe too. Watching healer vids it sounds like mana costs of heals are pretty high and healers arent just going to be able to heal and heal all day and carry a shit group through content.
I'm keen to hear what your thoughts are on tanking (in general) in legion. I've been lucky enough to have beta access in the last week or so and have enjoyed blood dk quite a lot. So, has it got better, worse, or stayed the same? Go...
I mean since this video was posted
Has Blizzard made any changes since this was posted? Are tanks still broken?
Tanks are not broken. This video is full of shit and preach whining. Tanking is fucking fine.
Oh I see, is that why preach is playing with empty action bars?
Really? Then were is your video explaining the current state of the tanking meta and how the specific classes are handling it?
Oh you don't have one? Oh you didn't even get into the Beta? Oh you have nothing to back up your claim and are literally just bitching because your salty your special snowflake class didn't get Preachers Stamp of Approval? Right, got it.
Preach!! When will you do another run of the Brewmaster?
Nice video! Good to see my Blood DK is in a good spot.
Will there be a Legion Healer Comparison, and maybe a Damage Dealer comparison?