Dolby was wrong! Place your Atmos speakers here instead, Performance over Aesthetics
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- Опубліковано 1 кві 2024
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I have cut out 12 holes in my ceiling. I went from 2 speakers at 0°. Then 4 at +55° and -55°. Then 6 at +55°, 0°, -55° . (Based on recommendations from respected people on UA-cam, Audioholics, Anthony Gremani , Home Theatre gurus etc.) Then I watched Techno Dad's atmos renderer videos. Which threw a spanner in the works.
So, I decided to make six extra holes that are in line with the bed layer. Lots of moving speakers, and crawling around the loft, and recalibration, and listening, and moving speakers, and crawling around the loft, and listening, and recalibration... on and on it went.
But..... I think Channa is right. So thanks, Techno Dad, many more man hours later, it sounds right. Guess it's time to start filling in those original holes.🙄
Wow! That's a lot of work...I applaud you for taking the time and energy to experiment and go with a setup based on what you have found to be the best setup. I'm glad I could help...I can't help you fill those holes though...
@@TechnoDad you probably could. But I don't want to find out what your day rate is!
@@Britishbandogge overhead drywall patching and skim coating is a young man’s game; I’m now at 72, so anything under 50 qualifies. 🤭
@@fonkenful I'm 37, so I have no excuse! But it's done now. (I'm glad I had the foresight to keep and label the drywall cutouts). There is now no evidence of the carnage that had taken place previously in that room. I guess it's a bit like a serial killer selling an apartment...
@@Britishbandogge Dexter Gordon and the art of home theatre install. 😵💫
The come closer "I don’t care" was personal 😂😂
HAHAHA!
@@TechnoDadcould even have some salty slang in there - it took me a long time to realize that “…at a rolling donut” was just a euphemism.
lol channeling your inner fresh hater jay there
@@angelajudetv Yup!
I settled for a soundbar sub, and rear speakers 5.1.(2) set up for my lounge, because I only use Blu-ray, and have noticed most of them carry dts X as their only audio source. I'm not going to go with 4k discs, so this fits my audio needs while being aesthetically smaller than a full system. The dts sound fills the room better than the few Atmos discs I have. And as usual, I am the only one in the house that pores over these decisions. The .2 is in brackets because the q600b upfiring are half the power of the mains, and bring some atmosphere, but not height.
I completely understand your reasoning here. You have to do what's right for your room.
Hi, love your content! Does your opinion aboht height speaker placement change depending on the ceiling height of the room? For example, 6' vs 10' vs 15'? Looking at the Atmos box, can you guesstimate the room dimensions based on the screen size?
I haven't really thought about 15 foot ceilings. Obviously, a 6 foot ceiling would be pretty rough. I think 8 feet hight is a great place to put the speakers. My new Atmos mixing room has 10 foot ceilings, but I am placing the heights at 8 feet high.
That’s the reason why Dolby spec specifies angle not height above the main speakers. If angle is preserved it doesn’t matter how high is your ceiling - it will come from the specific point.
I think showing a room/box shape is misleading. It should show the way auro3d shows a bubble. Then people can visualize why angles make sense - it’s not about corners in your space! Sound traveling to your front Atmos speaker is ok - it doesn’t mean it travels closer into your room if your ceiling is lower - it means it comes from that direction. So if it’s mixed to go up above the front soundstage it either will be mixed with front channels or spl will be lower than when coming from front speakers - mimicking greater distance of the object to you. If your room was square and your main listening position was in the middle it’s possible at certain ceiling height to have Atmos speakers directly over front and rear speakers whilst maintaining 45 degree to them.
With Auro3d they say to put over main speakers - front and side surrounds but at the same time they say to have them at 30 degrees. This is not possible with all rooms at variable ceiling heights.
Very interesting and makes total sense. I have a 7.1.4 system in my living room, so full of compromises. I had to go for in ceiling speakers for my hight channels so need to bring them in closer to be able to get the best out of them. I’m assuming that if you are advocating putting speakers in the corners, it would be better to use bookshelf sized speakers angled to the listener?
would only seem sensible so ..what a waste of money i did ...is it time for some bigger speakers ?
Yes, Curtis, I would use a bookshelf speaker mounted high up on the front and rear wall.
Should you place them directly above front rear speakers - ceiling mount if necessary?
A reminder has been set ☺- You can do both by integrating design features so that they aid the sound and video, items in the room remain functional and also look nice and not like you are in a black coffin. I am glad you brought this subject up. Using common can get you results that deliver both, but of course if common sense was a currency we would all be rich. Love this video 👌
Its important to go through this thought process and fully understand what it is you are trying to accomplish before starting any kind of construction.
I think the issue here is that people started building home theaters to include Atmos before we had all the information at hand. The first few years of Atmos installation was all basically beta-testing and experimemtation. The price of being an early adopter.
The main thing I got from this video is that I was right to stop engaging with HT groups on Facebook.
100%!!
They are fun to engage with. You just have to take it for what it is. Simply a fun diversion. Some people take those groups way too seriously.
Same with hi-fi (2 channel) groups. Full of "experts" who will always advise you to buy something more expensive. The very same people will push their speakers up against the walls, advise you to buy a very expensive speaker cable for your $250 pair of speakers because it will do some kind of magic to your system... etc. So tired of these fb experts I haven't read anything in those groups for more than 6 months now. Many of them claim to know everything yet are probably deaf and/or delusional.
So I have a 7.3.4... where do I put the front height channel speakers? in the front or in the middle.. currently they are in the middle..
The idea of the .4 setup is to have height speakers in front and behind your seating position, while sitting between them all. That way sounds can pan from front to back above you. And ideally, if they are wide dispersion speakers angled toward you, all 4 would sum together above your head, essentially creating a virtual phantom set of Top Middle speakers.
It all depends on how large your room is. I have had both setups and I like the heights to mimic the front and rear speakers. Selfishly, as I want my Atmos mixes to translate better to my Atmos home theater. I would say try it first before you mount anything. I use the speaker on a stick method - ua-cam.com/video/h7NWteMPO5A/v-deo.html
Note position of speakers at 12:33 and 12:46 in the pro mixing room. Would it not be best to recreate that layout used in the studio to monitor the mix? Those speakers appear to fall within dolby instruction rather than following your suggestions here.
Any chance you can comment on the speaker layout in the mixing room?
Thank you this was very informative. Is. Logical extension to this line of thought that we should have a center rear speaker as well?
In a 5.1.4 system when the seating is against the wall. For my .4 I clearly want front height, but does it make sense to put the 2nd set above the surrounds or behind the seating position in the corner of the wall to be rear height? (Spacing maybe 6" behind seat).
I would say behind the seating location
Hi,
just for the right understanding. My MLP is about a third of my room. Where should I put my side surrounds? 80°, 110° or exactly at 90°. In your layout the 6 atmos speaker are front/rear heights and top middles? So you have compatibility to Auro3d with VOC. Although the position for the top middles are side heights???
thx ☺
95-100 degrees
@@HT_addictok thx
And the Atmos speaker heights and TM or all speaker tops ?
For a 7.1.6 setup as you describe, I"m assuming you'll need a pretty specialized/advanced amp, what do you recommend? or are there tricks to making existing systems that support fewer ceiling speakers support more?
do you recommend the rear heights be directly above the rear surrounds or in the corner? I currently have two in wall rear surrounds that are at ear level hieght and 5 ft between them.. should the rears heights also be directly above the, and 5 ft apart or should they pushed more into the corners?
Hmmmm...can you send me pictures? I can't seem to picture that - TechnoDad55 at gmail dot com
Thank you for your insights and the info. Now, my Denon is a 7.4.4 capable unit. My 4 height speakers are in ceiling coaxials put into acoustic tiles and are located closer to my seating position so I'm located between the square below them. Should I move the front heights to the top of the front mains and the other pair of rear heights on top of the rear surrounds, since I do not have provisions for a 3rd pair of height speakers? Thanks for your attention... My room is 23' x 13.5' x 9' all concrete with drop acoustic ceiling, one window and one door, just to give an idea and i am sitting around the center of the room...
This man is number one disgrace
@@RanjakarPatel care to explain?
Honestly, Channa is 💯 correct on this...he is basically describing an Auro3D setup. It's better than the Dolby recommendation and still works fine for Atmos.
Yep, pretty much!
I had a friend telling me about this concept while I was upgrading from a .2 overhead to a .4 and I thought it was very interesting. I then found your channel and downloaded your test video that had sounds going straight up and down from the base speakers and it clicked for me. I know have all four overhead speakers directly above the front and surround speakers and it sounds fantastic. Thanks for pushing this topic, it makes perfect sense. Now I have to redo my living room....half the fun right? Right guys?
Finally!! I've been waiting for a video like this forever. Amazingly simple and logical topic. Thanks, Channa! 🍻
Thank you! I've been "trying" to make this for a year now...I guess it was the right time...
@@TechnoDad - Absolutely! Thank you, sir! 🍻
I agree. This is the best video you've made, period 😊. Great summary!
@@isak6626 Thank you so much!
Great video! Your focus was more on the height speakers, but what do you think about the main bed layer? Shouldn't our 5/7 bed layer speakers be setup in a box format as well than instead of what dolby recommends? I've never understood why our rear or surround speakers should be so close to us in atmos.
I think the ideal is a square box room, you sit in the middle. Speakers in every corner, both at ear level and height level. Then a main center channel.
If you only have 5, the surrounds are intended (by Dolby) to be more beside you and only a little bit behind you. Maybe 110° to 120°. When you have 7.1, the side surrounds move go 90° and the rear surrounds move to around 150° in general, the front mains should be the front wall, the rear surrounds should be the rear boundry and the side-surrounds should be exactly halfway between them.
You could set up a 5.1 like a Quadrophonic setup with the addition of a center channel, but the rear surrounds being that far back has some weird psychoacoustic effects. Thats one of the reasons the rear surrounds are not used often for sustained playback.
Also acoustically you REALLY don’t want a square room with all equal sides.
Yes! I think it would be great to have the front L & R and Rear L & R in the corners.
@@clintstuckey There is a rather square room of 8,1 x 7,2 meter x 2,55m height (or ratios of 3.18 x 2.82 x 1) in which there are no axial resonance modi below 182Hz, nor retromodi and also no other than axial modi below 165Hz
@@FURognar the general laws of acoustics regarding boundary reflectios and interference at listenig level always apply, meaning in 2.0 or surround the spakers need to be away from the walls quite a bit (min 5ms of 90cm/3ft; preferably 10-20ms or ven further into the room - law of ellipses). This was proven by Jeremy Kipnis in his Beta studio, together with having a subwoofer per speaker , distanced no further apart than half the distance of the cut-off wavelength (ie. never in the corners of the room)
Hello sir, can you guide me little bit, I have one Yamaha home theater system rx v4a which comes with speakers and subwoofer also, I want to change my speakers to bookshelf one I don’t want the tall speakers, what will you recommend me !
Did you have a price range in mind?
@@TechnoDad not more then 1 k $
I am building a dedicated room in my custom home build. The room will be 18' wide and 23'-6" deep with 10' ceiling. I will have second row seating which will be 15" above the first row. I plan on a 11.4.6 setup using JBL Synthesis in-wall speakers and a Trinnov Altitude processor. How would you recommend placing the 6 ceiling mounted Atmos speakers in this type of configuration?
13.2 does me , it took a while but base level are all at ear level once seated, my height speakers are all same level and the top speaker is above my seat and it blows me away.. 😊
Nice!!!
Hey techno dad, so does this mean I should stick my rears in the corners of the room? Or do I just line up my rears with my front stage and basically put them across from wherever my left and right front speakers are?
I would put them above the mains.
@@TechnoDad sounds good, so where ever my rear bed-layer speakers are, the rear heights go right above that. Thanks! 🙏
@@TechnoDad so do the rear bedlayer speakers just sit across from the front left and right channel bedlayer speakers?
Dude, I had this same conversation talking to a buddy of mine when listening to demos. He wants me to set up his system and I was telling him why I recommend having the atmos speakers match the positions of the bed layer. He kept going back to the dolby charts and I kept explaining why the bed layer is so good at placing sound in the room and why having the top layer match that exactly would be best. Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this. Awesome video and keep up the good work man!
Ayyy! This is what I've known for the past year and I have been waiting to make this video. I'm so glad I did. Thank you for sharing!
@@TechnoDad I wish you would have made this last year as now I have already drilled the holes and installed the speakers! What is your take on position of front left and right speakers? How far from the front wall should they be? Some people recommend 4 feet from the front wall, but that looks pretty funky, but it would be directly under my atmos speakers at that point. Should I move the fronts out 4 feet or cut new holes and move the atmos speakers?
Great information Techno Dad.I'm still using The Yamaha Rx 583 for 5.2.2. I went 4 channel in 1973/4 with 8 track tapes, anyone remember the 4 channel FM broadcast You needed 2 FM tuners.
Toby!!! Keep rocking that Yamaha…until the wheels fall off.
Techno Dad I have a question, I’m using a 9.2.4 system now. Should I ditch the extra wide channels and use the extra heights instead for Movies and Games?
If my atmos receiver Only has 4 atmos channels Where do I place the speakers in the Ceiling
above your ear level speakers
So where do you position the middle height speakers when the side surrounds are adjacent to the seating position. The seating position is 1/3 from the back wall. Do you colocated them with the side surrounds or in the middle of the room?
Great question!
yeah you would if you are trying to follow this advice. but if you havd 6 heights, thats where they should be anyway. for either method.
I would put the middle heights above the MLP, or just in front of the MLP and above. That way, you will get separation of the overhead effects and the rear effects.
Great effort making the video, but after trying both options with front and rear heights, and in ceiling I prefer the home theater gurus option with in ceiling speakers. To me it was a big difference. 8’ wasn’t tall enough to noticed a good separation between base layer and front and rear height
First, I'm glad you found something that works well for you.
You will hear more sound when a speaker is physically closer to you, no doubt. The tradeoff is less accurate positioning of height objects based on the Atmos renderer and coherence between the ear-level speakers and heights. Just like stereo imaging breaks when placed too close or too far, the same thing happens with height speakers.
Moved speakers but moved them practically back where i had them..unless I am not fully understanding but I felt that the atmos speakers sound terrible in line with the surrounds. Having too close to the line of the surrounds you are hearing almost zero channel separation this way. Having the back atmos speakers literally above where you sit sounds absolutely incredible.
Performance. Just 1 question. What about the angels everybody is talking about. Or just put the speakers on the richt spot and angle them to main listingposition?
If I wanted to roll with angles, I would do 30 degrees up for front heights and the same on the other end, 30 degrees up from the rear surrounds.
Have you played much with the top / front height settings of speakers in the AVR?
What you’re describing about 11mins in seems like a processor mapping thing? (With the helicopter going up)
At the end of the day, the speaker can try to “fake” the location of the object, but it won’t give you a better experience as placing the speaker in the correct location.
I would love to have a 7.1.6 system. Unfortunately my receiver can only handle 7.1.4 with an extra amp. Will be a while before I can get all the speakers but will see how it turns out at some point.
Yeah, they are pricey...but the Denon X6700H has dropped in price. That's the one I use for 7.1.6 - amzn.to/3VOLZsG
@@TechnoDad Thanks very much
Performance all day every day. Attractive theater style seating combined with awesome lighting definitely grasps my attention. But beautiful video on a large screen combined with immersive sound is what blows me away.
Awesome!
performance.
but just to say - i followed the prime elevation manual where it said to "place ypur height speakers as close as possible to the ceiling" and this is where your atmos tester revealed the defects. due to them being close to the ceiling AND the sidewalls (like in the DAR) they caused a lot of echo and completely messed up the directionality of the sound. so i moved it down and closer together - i had my wife hold the speaker up while listening to your tester and then decided on the position.
so i'd say yes on this proposal as a general guide but always.. test first!
you always want to be away from sidewalls, even with the front ear leval. I think the main princinble is keep them at the same palce as your ears just higher, which typically are as close to the screen edge as possible.
100%!! Test and listen. I hope she didn't have to hold them up for too long! LOL!
@@TechnoDad she appreciated the difference in sound as well.. worth all the blabbering during that time 😂😂
i'll be considering speaker on a stick next time (those parts doesnt seem to be easily available here)
I remember the old days like circuit city and the wiz Bose came out with those metal stands with sorround backs way up high
With multiple rows, the speakers at home should be just above ear level so it's not blocked. My surrounds are actually just below ear level and some sounds still sound like they're over my head from the side surrounds (HRTF in the recorded sounds affects placement too). Most of these mixes are designed for the movie theater and their surrounds tend to be considerably above ear level anyway. So this notion that Atmos needs speakers at or below ear level is erroneous. You want separation between layers, but the layers don't have to be exactly at ear level. You do generally want to keep front/rear lower layer speakers relatively consistent with each other. If possible, LCR mains should be behind an audibly transparent screen. If not, you can employ a "dialog lift" mixer (Yamaha builds the feature into its AVRs) to simulate it with TVs and the like as well.
You is da man TD. I will remember this stuff when I get my room.
Thank you Timothy!!
@@TechnoDad you're welcome
The official atmos layout gives me original Dolby Surround vibes, like just put some speakers there to give you a vague sensation of height, and sound coming from above, and your suggestion is more of the placing sound accurately exactly where it's encoded to live.
I completely agree. I am in the process of building my home theater, but currently I only have a 6.1 receiver and separate amps. Often I even turn off my center because I have such an amazing phantom center. This absolute proof that the same can happen with the height speakers. Heck even with just my two front towers playing some of the 8D tracks on UA-cam, I can even hear height. Whenever I am ready to buy a new receiver, I will have pre-wires for ceiling speakers, but i will probably experiment with speaker placement and settings. Will you have any more info for settings/adjustments for the height channels? Or is it as intuitive as I'm thinking...? Thanks!
If you are going to experiment with height speakers, I would look at my Speaker on a Stick design to test out height speaker locations - ua-cam.com/video/h7NWteMPO5A/v-deo.htmlsi=WD4m1phNIxrerZT9
Hey Techno Dad, so should I do 45 degrees to the left and right speakers each based on your previous findings working with the atmos renderer?
I would do that!
@@TechnoDad sounds good, thanks!! 🙏
That's great if you have 7.1.6 but many systems are 7.1.4 so how do you set that where you can't go one for one straight up and down?
Hey T.D. What crossover point is recommended for atmos? Is there much bass, or even mid bass? Would having an 8” compared to a 6.5” make a huge difference? Maybe you could make a video discussing these.
Great video - thanks for the thought provoking content. I have a question. Does the Dolby renderer send different signals to your speakers based on whether you tell your AVR you are using height speakers or top speakers? In other words will a top front right speaker get different signals sent to it by the renderer than a front height right speaker? 🤔
The renderer won’t know that distinction, it just sends sounds to that speaker when the object is placed in that location. Changing that designation in the AVR will make the AVR change its delay I would imagine, but not change the signal itself.
Love the real talk. Sometimes rooms are what they are, but in all cases, if you can do it right you should shhh the interior designer and do it correctly.
7.1.6 is the best, but when the space is limited you go with 5.1.4... in the case of limited funds and the 5.1.2 is the only option is bette ti have the 2 atmos channels as front high or on top of the main sitting position?
Dumb question… Just to confirm, if you are doing a 5.1.4 setup you should do surround heights above your surround left and right speakers? Also, would a 5.1.6 work? There is no available back wall, but the ceiling does continue.
I'm in the same position.
Well...that does make sense. However...when using surround height position, the way sounds are matrixed between the front height and rear height are not going to sound correct 100%. Maybe setting the rear height to top middle? That might work a bit better.
@@TechnoDad Thanks for the info, I appreciate it!... Maybe I can pick up some Monoprice THX satellites and try out some different positions (and position settings in AVR) before turning my ceiling/walls into Swiss cheese lol. Also, I could always repurpose the Monoprice THX satellites to garage speakers with a little sub.
Respect. Definitely something to try and see if the difference is big. To be clear, just for the bed layer, you'd move surround to the middle of room and surround back to the back corners?
I put the side surrounds on the sides of the MLP and surround back to the back corners. Keep the speakers in line though…
Maybe I missed it or misunderstood. Do the atmos speakers laid out like this fire down or do they get aimed into the seating position?
The top middles would be aimed down but the front and rear heights should be aimed to above the mlp.
Do you think placing the front and rear height speakers in the corners is more important than keeping them equidistant to the MLP? Also, if they are down firing in ceiling speakers and not aiming at the MLP, does that affect your findings or not?
Depends on where they are placed. Maybe equidistant is good if that’s what the space will allow.
@@TechnoDad Lol, ok. Let me be a bit more specific. MLP is at 2/3 room length. Would you recommend putting the front heights equidistant from MLP or back to the front wall?
Hey Daddyman ...Does this make a difference when I use Auro 3D also ?
This is essentially an Auro-3D layout except for the VOG will be matrix’d between the two middle heights. The middle heights would be best to be in ceilings pointing down at the MLP.
Think it would be worth returning the refurb X3800H for a refurb X6700H to have the extra channels available as I build out my theater? I've got 5.1 with 4 speakers ready to go up for heights, using them as heights instead of tops would actually help maximize PJ screen size since they would be out of the way. Would you put a great base layer over any Atmos? Thanks!
I suppose. Depends on the price difference…
Does the atmos mix transition as object moves front to back with multiple speakers or do all get the same signal all the time. Do the front speakers phase out as object gets to middle and the middle phase out as object transitions to rear overhead atmos speakers to create an accurate sound of linear movement up just in fronts then just to mids and finally to overheads/rears only? This would be true reference atmos and support multiple (6) speaker layout. Just a thought perhaps this already occurs. If not, Techno Dad is the phase transition viable? Do you and think you could engineer this effect? Perhaps I’m a doofus! Anyway thanks for doing what you do!
I'd one day like to do 7.1.2 but currently I'm just rocking 5.1.2. I have my atmos speakers a little in front of me (maybe 50 to 45 degrees?). I couldn't do 90 degrees sadly due to a ceiling fan but I can say your calibration tool kit helped a ton.
Watch the fireballs scene of Dungeons and Dragons near the end and tell me if it sounds right when the fireball hits the building up on the top left there.
My 4K Copy of that is at my old house...maybe I can stream it? I'll have to see.
good movie
What's the benefit of the calibration disc compared to using Dirac or Audyessy MultiEQ-X?
I use the disk to check to see if the "auto cal" got it right and to use the disk to make corrections. It's nice to use the disk to listen to Channa's objects move smoothly from speaker to speaker once all of the speaker placements and distances are correctly set. It can be done without the disk by setting the AVR to output all speakers stereo and listen for echos. Then the task is to figure out which speaker is set wrong. I'm surely losing hair trying to get my system just right. But, is there a "just right"?
Makes a lot of sense.. my room is too small for surround back so I have 2 klipsche atmos on the ceiling but very slightly forward of my surrounds. (After watching your video I am honestly wondering what I was thinking not having them in line with the surrounds) I don't have any on the front but can hook up another 2. I am now going to move my 2 atmos speakers to directly above my surrounds and hooking up another 2 above my front left and right. Today I will move my surrounds but need to get more speaker wire before I hook up my front left and right atmos. I got the speakers on another system upstairs which I am not using atm so I just need to get more speaker wire. Makes a lot of sense. I honestly feel I learned something from this video. True hard to take in new information when I always think I know best. I been making music since mid 80's and into home cinema since late 90's...yes when you needed nicam stereo to get a dolby suround signal. :)
My system is a 5.1 at ear level, but I think you're correct. Multi channel music is also making similar advances as they are moving the sound stage around the room for some arrangements.
Thanks!
Hello! Is it worth buying jamo s809, over the s807 or s805 if I will be using them 95% of the time for movies and they will be set to small in my receiver? I have two Klipsch subs.
I’ve never heard those speakers, so I really can’t say…
@@TechnoDad whaaat? You have them in your thumbnail of this video. The towers next to the big screen. I thought it was your home theater
@@valenriquez8882 I didn’t make the thumbnail…
I've read that in an acoustically well treated room with multiple seats, dipole speakers are good as right and left surrounds. How true is this? Please guide.
Oh man!!! I did exactly what you said not to do. Although I’m extremely limited with my living room space and vaulted ceilings, and open concept. I did a 7.2.4 and my 4 heights are midway towards front/rear to seating position
Hey, Techno Dad, great video! I have no experience with Atmos at all and this episode brought me a lot closer to understanding, and almost answering my own questions.
In this video you said you were discussing dedicated theater rooms and not living rooms because the latter had too many compromises. Amen! But before I turn off the lights and go home on this idea, I thought I’d ask your thoughts on my specific scenario and if decoding Atmos is “worth the squeeze” as they say.
I have a 11x15x8 foot living room/ theater room with a ceiling mounted projector on the long end with the drop down screen 2ft from the front with an OLED tv about a foot from the wall, and a well calibrated 5.1 system using Paradigm reference LCR and paradigm in-wall surrounds in the back. The seating positions are on two couches along both sides of the 15’ wall, with the “MLP” about 40” from the rear wall. There is a row of three connected folding theater chairs from an old cinema along the back wall but that position is what it is. I just upgraded to a Yamaha A4A that can support 7.x.2 and decode Dolby Atmos. Right now I have it set up as bi-amped Left and Right 5.1. I could ceiling mount two paradigm CI Pro P80-A v2 or similar as the .2 Atmos heights… if it was worth it.
In your experience, would it be worth all the drywall dust, fiberglass rash, and money, or do you think it’s a do it right or not at all situation? Do you think I’d gain anything resembling Atmos, or would I be better off sticking with an articulate 5.1 setup?
Any thoughts would be deeply appreciated!
Thanks!!
Hi.. When will the next update be released for the avr-x3800h device.. to support 360 reality audio??. Please respond to me 🙏🙏
The Sony thing? Not sure. I’ll have to look it up….
@@TechnoDad Thanks 🙏🤩
I agree with your assertion. I was also following Dolby Atmos specifications and wasn’t thrilled with the results. I’m missing the speakers I once had mounted top of my TV. But my receiver isn’t capable of producing the .6, only .4
Right on! Yeah, the AVRs that support 13 channels are not cheap, but the Denon X6700H should be going down in price - amzn.to/4cL0DqY
I enjoyed this video. What are your thoughts on ceiling height? I totally get your thinking regarding setting up a theater like the dolby renderer. However, my ceiling is only 7.5ft heigh.
You may only need four height speakers with that low of a ceiling. Are your tweeters on the ear level at about 3 - 4 feet off the ground?
@@TechnoDadWould/can those 4 height speakers be on the front/back walls like in the 7.1.6 pdf? Or more “traditionally” placed 30-45 degrees around the MLP? Thinking about that helicopter example ands keeping it in the front of the room.
so for your overhead speakers would you have them all facing the viewers? so the speakers on would be front facing... side facing and then rears? or would you literally place 3 on each wall facing in towards the viewers exactly like the diagram.? if this is the argument then in ceiling speakers arent as good as wall mounted overheads which is fine just makes me curious.
Hmm, so yes, my back surround and sidesurrounds are not placed on ear level, why? Because it's my living room. Just not gonna happen. So it's not exactly how the artists intended it to be placed, but hey, it sounds 500x better than those goofy soundbars, and it's not the end of the world that your soundstage is some what lifted
Ow I totally agree with TD about height channels. I have just 2 height speakers, but they,re NOT in my ceiling but right above my front speakers. If I going to place back height surrounds they will be right above my back surrounds
Living rooms are pretty rough. I know mine in the last home was a tough place to put an Atmos setup, but I was able to get 5.1.4.
the whole intendtion here is for you to do whatever means necessary to do it correctly. what is wrong with you?
@@TechnoDadso in a 5.1.4 were your height above your base speakers?
I believe thats what hes saying, mirroring the speakers!@@randolphsettgast12
So if I understood correctly. I dont have to worry about the 30 degree or 45 degree angles, just place the height speakers exactly above the bed layer and I should have a wonderful Atmos, Auro experience?
You have to keep it within that 30°-45° range because if you go too high, you lose the coherence between your ear-level speaker and the height speaker.
@@joentellhi Joe, so should I put my left channel and right channel 45 degrees off the MLP each? Just wondering if you and TD changed your setups to reflect 45 degree angles after making the spatial calibration toolkit given your findings about when something appears in the left or right channel.
Just want to make sure my bedlayer is setup correctly before mirroring it with the heights.
@@joentellmy ceiling is 7.5 feet tall should I still worried about the angles. I am still not sure about how to implement technodad's suggestion. Because it appears I just have to copy my bed layer up above.
Fantastic insite MR. T. D.
Thanknyou!
😊
Q: what if the Atmos track in the movie is Not created to spec meaning objects poorly
Placed? Though your Setup is calibrated correctly? 😮
Well, that's always a thing. If the mix isn't that dynamic, then it's not that dynamic.
Hey Techno Dad, what's up with Atmos on UA-cam? A week or two ago, Atmos demo videos were playing in Atmos, but now none of them get the Atmos indicator to light up. Today, all I can get is 5.1 or 7.1 to work. Any idea what's going on?
OMG that story about the object changing in height just made me realize...thanks!
Now I got to rearrange my speakers. Sure some difference in height will work since we are not too sensitive to height differences in our hearing. But will for sure make the speakers more aligned to the same height. Right or wrong but I try to come as close to Dolby's recommendations as possible. And I try to mix both aesthetics and performance but aesthetics come slightly before performance since it's my living room also but if I were to have a dedicated theater performance would go first.
I go for performance. I don't mind seeing the speakers in my Living/Media Room. I just don't want a big screen & a projector. I think any Living Room could benefit from Acoustic Treatments. I will eventually get a Micro LED Display to put into my room with JTR Speakers system throughout.
Wow! Those are some big speakers!
Actually adding 2 more height speakers this weekend to go to 7.1.6. Hope they arrive on time.
I can't watch your YT videos more without hearing "Through the room....moving around your room"
Hah! Yeah, I've been told that it's stuck in everyone's head.
So what Blu-Ray or source material you can play at home has 7.1.6 sound on it? Most I see are 7.1 Atmos or DTS MA.
It doesn't really matter channel wise. It's just about coverage. So if the mixer puts objects in a front height, middle height, or rear height location, your speakers will be able to cover that sound with 6 heights. Does that make sense?
@@TechnoDad What AVR or audio system supports individual outputs to all those channels. The only one I have seen is the Denon AVR-X8500H but then you need some kind of Atmos decoder that has RCA outputs of just the 4 height signals as well as all the other channels. What gear does that for home use?
The world is a sphere and Atmos is a cuboid. Got it. And hot damn, that extreme close-up STILL looked 4K crispy. Gotta love that FX3, baby! 😄
Ayyy! Yeah, that with the 35mm GM lens is pretty sharp…but even if it wasn’t…”I wouldn’t care…”
I have a 7.2.6 system. The 6 height speakers are connected to a separate 6 channel emotiva basx amp. When I turn off the bed layer speakers and listen to just the height speakers, there really isn't much coming from the heights. I watched the bombing scene from Midway just before this reply and there are plenty of bullets whizzing by and another plane passing overhead but for the majority of the scene the heights are silent. Knowing what I know now, I think I can get the same results with a 7.2.4 system using in ceiling speakers that are located slightly in front and behind of my primary listening position. Don't skimp on side surround speakers, there is plenty of sound coming from these bed level speakers.
Have you heard any of my Atmos mixes, Mike? I think you may enjoy them. Here's the newest one - bit.ly/OMKNEWSGDARAtmos
Do you have the volume of the heights cranked up high enough? Try the "Riddles in the Dark" scene from the Hobbit..
Great talk I agree with you and for me performance first then aesthetics second.
Woot Woot!
Wonderful explanation with complete logic! Great Work TechnoDad . I am a Great Fan of yours. I live in India wish I could get a hand at your created work.
Thank you! Do you have one of my Atmos mixes? Here's one - bit.ly/OMKNEWSGDARAtmos
I'm probably wrong, but I think for rear speakers I don't like direct radiating speakers but I like Dipole/Bipole speakers. Atmos speakers can be mounted at ceiling on upper wall with a slant speaker.
I had bipolar as surrounds for quite some time.
Room shape and size will always take president in my opinion. I have a very small room but still manage a fully functional 7.2.6 setup. I have typical 7ch base layer setup, but heights are in between what you and Dolby advise. My FH's are above L&R, my MH's are roughly between LR & SLR, and finally RH's between SLR & SBLR, for me, this covers every angle and very enveloping, all.this in a 2.5m wide room by 5m long 😁👍
Nice video! Question would this also be applicable to DTS X content?
I don't know as I don't make DTS:X, but I think it would be pretty similar. I don't think DTS:X can go higher than 7.1.6. DTS:X Pro, however, can go way beyond that speaker layout.
Very good points. Another thing that supports your argument, look at the speakers that come with upfiring atmos speakers like the Klipsch. Those speakers are built right over the bed layer speaker.
Well of course they are, where else would they be? That doesn't mean it's an optimal placement. Truth is, upfiring speakers aimed at the ceiling are a bad idea and a major compromise at best. It took me over a year of rearranging my ceiling mounted Atmos speakers and the most accurate sound I achieved was when all 4 speakers were in the main listening position area, 55° in front and 55° behind my listening position. When the main left and right speakers are spread too far apart it destroys the soundstage. The same principle applies to ceiling mounted Atmos speakers.
@D.L.W. I didn't say they were expected to be anywhere else. I said it supports his theory of where they should be placed. Everyone knows upfiring speakers are a compromise, but that doesn't change the idea of them being right over the bed layer, which is what this video was about. If you are happy with where you placed yours than great but the point of this video was about why they shouldn't be where you put them and I tend to agree with the video. By the way I have in ceiling speakers, I was making a point about his concept.
Hey Channa!
Your video makes sense. I'm thinking the screen size compared to the room size is a factor, not so much the bed layer but the Atmos layer. I have a 100" screen, but my atmos speakers are out 2 to 3 feet past left/right of my screen.
I may need to move my atmos speakers.
For example, the atmos track for A Quiet Place when the moster moves down the basement stair case. The footsteps do not sound like they are coming from the top left of the screen, more like 2 feet out where i placed the speaker.
So what I'm thinking is I'm going to have to move my atmos speakers in line with my screen because to me it just makes more sense.
If I could fit a 150" to cover the wall then i think I would not have a problem. lol
Great video
Thanks man!
Yes, I can totally imagine what you are saying here. It's one of those things.
So I brought my copy of SACT to my friend's house. He's got 7.2.4. Mid and rear heights. He hates me now, confirmed he needs to go to .6 and get those front heights, which also means an upgrade to his AV receiver. BTW SACT is a great upgrade tool. The panning test of the bed layer, makes me want side surrounds.
No he doesn't "need" to go 6 heights because he currently has his 4 in a sub-optimal position. I have my 4 heights at -35 degrees and +35 degrees (or 55 and 125 using the Dolby diagram) and my Atmos sounds amazing. Going to 6 height might be a very marginal improvement but not worth the much extra cost and hassle of re-situating height speakers etc. Your friend just needs to position his 4 correctly and he should notice a huge improvement.
Yeah, 6 height channels is hard to do and the AVR is pricey.
What about for 5.1.2 ? Should i place my atmos as front heights?
That depends. If you plan on upgrading to 4 height channels, then yes. If you are sticking with 2 height channels, I would place them above your MLP.
I've got a Dolby Atmos 7.1.4/Auro-3D 13.1 setup running on my Denon X6700H and certainly know there is room for improvement in my living room. Though I can't easily make the speaker location change proposed here, I like the concept discussed!
Thank you for sharing! Have you tried my Speaker on a Stick to test it out - ua-cam.com/video/h7NWteMPO5A/v-deo.html
Agreed, but I would also include the center channel for a 7.x.7 configuration.
That's a tough one for Atmos, but I get it...seems like a good idea!
I think this concept works great but only if you have 10 to 12-ft ceilings. Someone like me with Atmos at 8 and 1/2 ft. It's hard to get enough separation between the side surrounds and if I were to have Atmos channels directly above on the walls.
I’m about trial and error. I won’t just assume one is better than the other, I would try them out. I’ve done that. So I would say, try it out and see what’s up.
Perfect explanation!
Thank you!
Home Theater ‘Come to Jesus’ moment. Finally… after so many years of studying the Dolby atmos placement knowing it’s just off. Watching hundreds of hours of UA-cam HT enthusiasts explaining their new and best positions for 2-4 height speakers. You slammed me in the face with the final answer. Coverage equals coverage. I feel like I can rest now lol.. seriously I am finally ready to add my actual atmos speakers. I’ve been moving my atmos speakers around about every 4 months for a few years knowing they never sounded ‘’’right’’. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
I came to the same conclusion. In my dedicated theater, i have recently gotten a processor that can handle it, and have a 7.4.6 with zero desire to add anything whatsoever.
After watching gurus for years and playing around enough to feel confident in what i know to be true, i put my 6 heights exactly in line with my bed layer.
To be clear, i have ceiling mounted brackets with 5" bookshelves hanging from the ceiling and pointed down and toward the same direction of whatever speaker is underneath
The height channels are an extension of the bed layer. Its not a math problem we need to solve.
I used the same logic with the helicopter when placing my speakers. Its not suppose to sound like you have different speakers. When you have something coming directly from a speaker that goes straight up, you dont want a more centrally located speaker trying to maintain the sound 45° off axis.
TLDR: When you have speakers directly above the bed layer, you dont lose volume in those transitions. It should sound like you have one very tall speaker, essentially, with the sound moving upward
LOVE this! Thank you so much for sharing. It really is simple.
Yeah, I noticed the same thing you mentioned about the helicopter when watching Mission Impossible Fallout with the chopper scene. It sounded more realistic on my Auro 3D bedroom setup that has the front atmos speakers right above the front left and right versus my living room setup which has them in the front center.
I totally agree with you. This is why I feel that in any given day Auro 3D is better than Dolby Atmos. The addition of an extra layer exponentially increases the intensity of immersion. I do reallt feel bad that Auro 3D doesn't get the credit it deserves. Dolby clearly has the edge through their aggressive marketing. Thank you for making this video, you have meticulously put together your careful observations.
Techno Dad can you please confirm the metadata being sent to heights the frequency range. Have seen it said nothing below 80 Hz and you only need small speakers due to this. I would assume that a larger frequency range is sent which is why i agree with bookshelves being ideal purpose for heights.
Ok, so the front and rear beds + heights should ideally be horizontally spread 45° from the MLP, and you commented that IF you were doing angles you’d put them at 30° above MLP, directly above the bed level speakers. Is that right?
But WOULD you do the 30° angles or would you just have downfiring height speakers? I’m always getting hung up on the type of heights to use.
I went with my room limitations. I finally was able to put my surround sound speakers and hide the wires through my attic. I put them on my mantle fireplace. Yes they are a bit high but would be blocked by 2 lazyboy chairs in my rectangle shaped small living room. My new klipsch book shelve speakers sound great. I haven’t even run Dirac live on my new pioneer elite lsx 305 yet.
Run that Dirac and get that system sounding it's best!
You are absolutely spot on! Loved the video. Very experienced. It’s very true everything you have just said. I concur because I have the exact same experience as you . There is way too many videos out there, a lot of it doesn’t make sense.. lol
Thank you so much!
Performance Period!
Woot woot!
This helps quite a bit. My dedicated room is 13x12. I have 2 Emotiva in ceiling about 3' in front of my seating and was trying to avoid cutting more holes and running wires. Now I think I will add 2 above the TV up front and 2 behind my seating position.
Oh, wait...13 channels, damn. Well, maybe I add 2 up front until I can up my channel count😅
Yeah, it requires a larger AVR, but the X6700H has dropped in price - amzn.to/3VOLZsG
I appreciate you Channa! Excellent information, thanks SO MUCH! I'm doing a 7.8.6 setup with Trinnov as per your spec
Nice! Let me know how it goes!