Don’t Make This Mistake With Your Atmos Speakers!
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- There are 4 different styles of speakers that can be used for Atmos, or Height speakers. I break down the different types of speakers along with their advantages and disadvantages. In the end, a lot depends on your home theater and the constraints, limitations and personal preferences for how you want your room to look and sound.
Bookshelf Speaker Mount
amzn.to/3J7MrKP
my home theater
Processor
Anthem AVM70
Speakers
Center Channel: GoldenEar Invisa SPS
Left and Right Mains: GoldenEar Invisa SPS
Wides and Rears: GoldenEar Invisa MPX
Sides: GoldenEar Invisa 650
Rear Heights: GoldenEar Invisa 650
Front Heights: Kef Q150
Amplifiers
Yamaha MX-A5200
Crown XLS 202
Crown XLS 1502
Projector
Epson 6050UB
Screen
Dragonfly 145" 16:9
Subwoofers
Episode 15"
4K Blu-Ray player
Panasonic UB420
AppleTV 4k
Room treatments panels
GIK Acoustics - Розваги
Yeah, I have 4 in ceiling Atmos speakers that are adjustable to allow the sound field to be directed at the 4 main listening positions and they are amazing. Not just according to me, but everyone who’s come over to watch movies. It took a few try’s to get them aimed correctly, but once I did and ran some sound tests, I find they are spectacular. I have a 7.4.4 system set up with two 10s and two 12s crossed over to cover specific lower end. It is extremely clean. I had three friends come over last weekend after I installed the two new amps, and one commented that he would never go out to see a movie again if he had my home movie theater in his house. Which prompted another friend to say he simply would never leave his house again if he had it. I am very pleased with my final set up.
That is awesome! A home theater is something everyone can enjoy. Sounds like you did it right. Thanks for watching!
Cool, what Atmos speakers do you use?
I have the Klipsch in-ceiling speakers that allows me to direct the woofer and the tweeter towards the listener. I can pivot them independently of each other.
Me too! And I like what I'm hearing. I also have Klipsch Atmos speakers which has an on/off switch on the back of each speaker (for either wall mount or as tower toppers); I have them mounted on the wall above my TV. Frankly, I like what I'm hearing from my Klipsch in-ceiling speakers.
Totally makes sense to use bookshelf speakers. Now how to I hide the wires so my wife is happy? Hmm...
Hide the wires? I just happened to have made a video about that very thing.
ua-cam.com/video/CuzfVKhPrIw/v-deo.html
I had 4 in ceiling Atmos for about a year. I could hear the potential, but they didn't offer the dynamics I demand to run with my bed layer. A few months ago, I changed my 4 overhead, side surrounds and rear surrounds all for JBL 8330a (pro cinema surrounds). These are most comparable to the bookshelf option in your video. It was a tremendous difference. I would recommend everyone use a more capable overhead speaker, which in most cases is a mounted, box speaker.
Very interesting! Happy to hear your upgrade improved the sound. Thanks for watching!
I have Sonance 6” in-ceilings for atmos. They sound really good, but I will be getting bookshelves. Also, bookshelf speakers have a calculated box that provides the best sound for that speakers while in-ceilings have an infinite baffle and may lack in sound quality becuse of that.
Using good outdoor speakers that have a bracket and can be oriented directly where you want is a great advantage!
I agree elevation & bookshelf are best. You can also mount elevation speakers on a mount and direct it to listening position that works equally good.
Here at my home 2 front upfirering and back flat at top of ceiling. Ajust all at ĥeight speakers. Surround i have 7 speakers. Front centre left right on the side 2 and back 2. All keff. SVS sub 1
Marantz SR8015 amp are 11. I like my setup LG G 3 on the wall 65 inch blueray uhd reavon 110. Tv i look by ziggo i live in holland. I have for me the best sound.
That sounds like a great setup! Glad to have you here!
Bookshelf or nothing!! I ended up making custom brackets for mine.
Agreed! Thanks for watching!
sine wave frequencies with keeping some certain frequencies a bit more upward or located to front or sides by subtracting and looking at angles and listening and would take days to do it
firstly they are not atmos speakers , just a speaker a speaker with a crossover which is what makes the speaker ( or passive crossover speaker ) DSP loudspeaker management crossover has way more flexible user customise control over passive
secondly when projectionist at CIC/UCI tower park 1989 , ten plex , that used experiential surround , via EV speakers , Dolby CP55 with SRA5 spectral recording , vic 5 35mm ,
two of main larger screens 5 and 6 used x8 overheads
smaller screens 1 - 4 , 7 - 10 used x overhead surround
when listening to matrix expanded surround via pro-logic or extended version of Dolby EX ( um my 1989 idea ) consumer EX only used watered down version of the four-channel matrix , 3 channels , where pro version used the typical 4 channels , which is pro-logic
i had overhead surround since 1999/2000 , first EX or centre back matrix surround , 1998 , i could have had up running as early as 1997 , EX early around 1999 ? well that's me on the phone , 30 mins , 9pm uk to new york 1998 , and he was very interested in the idea in fact too interested in my idea
when hearing dolby atmos at Empire Leicester Square , THX , captain kirk voice into darkness overhead while announcing to the ship enterprise , it reminded me of UCI tower park , no difference at all expect its discrete sound , same idea only done discretely now
atmos flawed its not a 3d immersive , it has no discrete below floor in floor surround , so a lot of what you see , star wars with x-wings flying around on-screen to off-screen or off-screen to on-screen coming in at lower screen angles and the sound is typically in the wrong position location , atmos simply doesn't support enough , mixing to encoding decoding channels , it used it all up for overheads and few more on the sidewalls ,
simple if it traded off most of those channels for below surround then it might start sounding a bit realistic , 11 years and oh , what waste of immersive sound
If you have low ceilings like me, "bookshelf" speakers can actually be on-wall speakers on an articulating mount for a lower profile (like Polk OWM 3, or OWM 5 if you can mount them safely.) Remember: ceiling mounts need to be screwed into studs. Don't mount to just drywall nor even drywall with anchors!!
I use my elevation speakers mounted slightly in front and behind my listening positions on the ceiling angled at me to achieve atmos.
I agree, thanks for pointing this out. I am building a 9.2.4 with atmos bookshelves at the moment.
Good luck with your project! Hope it turns out great. Thanks for watching!
You should do 9.4.6 if you can!
I came for speaker placement advice. I stayed for the highly detailed diagram.😅 Great video.
😆 thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Gene would be proud of you for acknowledging the "Bouncy House Speakers"...Lol!
Does he get royalty payments on that use?
@@fonkenful I don't know, but he should! There's probably a bouncy house section in the Audioholics Archives...Lol!
@@michaelslocumbsr.2286 Family BBQs and kids’ / nieces nephews BD parties for sure. 👍
I am wanting to expand into atmos. Just relocated to Germany and am a renter who has cement 8 1/2 foot tall ceilings. I was thinking about mounting like attitude speakers but I see what he is saying about bookshelf units. I am looking for prime bang for buck to get my system to 7.1.4 but haven't gotten any atmos speakers yet. Still on the fence 😅
Nice article. My ceiling is acoustic tile, so I just see the up firing, bouncing style working very well. Plus they are costly for what they are. So I wall mounted some Polk T15 they are front ported and are working well. As you said, because of the adjustable brackets, I was able to aim them directly at my listening position. Plus, they sit a little off the wall, so it should help with bass response. All in all, it was the best solution for me. I bet the q150 that you showed would be better than the T15, but the little Polks are working great for me. Thanks for validating my install. Subscribed.
Up firing speakers that are built in the towers work very well on 8ft ceilings like the klipsch rp 280fa and the rp 8060fa but i do agree the up firing modules don't work. The reason they don't work is line of sight. If you can see the drivers then your going to hear the off axis before the ceiling bounce. Unlike the ones in the towers gets the off axis blocked by the cabinet there for the first reflection is off the ceiling.
The main thing to achieve is having the speakers aimed at the listeners. That is why straight down-firing in-ceiling speakers are the 2nd worse option behind the up-firing bouncy speakers. So bookshelf or 45deg angled in-ceilings are the next best option, but 45deg in-ceilings are way too expensive with most starting around $500UUSD EACH !! So does that leave bookshelf as the best option ? No there is an other better option - Outdoor or PA speakers. These usually have a shaped enclosure allowing them to be mounted closer to the ceiling and usually come with brackets that allow them to be aimed exactly where you want them. For me it is a no brainer especially after my experience of going from 4" bookshelf to 8" Wharfedale Pro PA's and back to cheap Kicker KB6 outdoor speakers. I could hardly tell any difference between any of them and since the Kickers were the cheapest and easiest to mount and aim I have stuck with them. On a side note I also found mounting them in Time Intensity Trading setup to work best (and this applies to all speakers, not just the Atmos). This is where you aim the Left speakers at the Right most seat and vice versa. This means the closest speaker to each listener is the most off-axis which reduces the SPL in relation to the opposite side speaker which gives a more balanced stereo effect between the pairs.
My first attempt at surround was too us infinity indoor outdoor for ceiling speakers and in was Great. This was 30 or so years back!
I've got JBL SCS 8 speakers on the ceiling. Hard to beat these. Some movie theaters use them. In ceilings, no matter how good, sound like a joke next to these.
Just have in-ceiling speakers directly above your head.
I have my elevation speakers mounted on simple articulating mounts so even with their slanted fronts, I can still adjust and point them toward the listening position. I don't use the mounts that come with the speakers, although I did use them when I first got the speakers. I didn't like the fact that when using the mounts that come with the speakers, that even with that slanted front, they always point forward to the back of the room. I wanted them pointed at the listening position. In ceiling speakers are out of the question at my place as are the bouncy bounce type. The ceiling is sloped and much to high anyway.
Sounds like you’ve got the Height speakers dialed in. Very nice. Thanks for watching!!
I went the high on wall route with polk owm3s always thinking inceiling was superior but not wanting to commit to holes! Years later it seems a lot are shifting back to on wall or on ceiling rather than in ceiling.
My experience has been fantastic although sounds have seemed elevated above tv but not above listeners. Recently added 2 more heights right above MLP and it has connected everything, the atmos sounds incredible, the difference is astonishing. How i expected Atmos to sound!
7.2.6. i dont think people realize how important top middles are, reality is top rear has the lowest volume of sound/content in any atmos mix.
Also the degree difference between fronts and rears can be a massive gap in your sound stage throwing everything off. Similar to having your front left and right waaaaaaay too wide or far apart.
Great video!
Thanks for sharing! I have considered going to 6 height channels but so far have not pulled the trigger. Maybe I should just do it. I even have an exceptional pair of Paradigm bookshelf speakers in my closet that are collecting dust. Glad you enjoyed the video, thanks for watching!
Yep. In order to do in-ceiling speakers right, you really have to plan it out and choose the in-ceiling speakers that have the right kind of baffle-angle built in. And even then usually only the main row gets good sound. If you have multiple rows, they will likely be off-axis. With bookshelf speakers, its easier to aim to cover multiple rows.
And I agree wholeheartedly. The Top-Middles are absolutely essential. Especially if you have multiple rows or are in a long room where there is a lot of distance between the front stage and the rear stage. The Top-Middles bridge the gap between them and really add a lot of presence and dimensionality to objects passing through the room.
People have no frame of reference for what this adds to a soundtrack till they experience it.
How did you install thr Polks? Do you have a particular mount for them that works best?
this is why M AND K had the s300 and k4 dipole back speakers, cause they did not need ot be hughe, as the sounds they get are, low and less. they threre to close in the gaps, front to back.
Great video. I have a 5.2.4 and I use four bookshelves for the two fronts and the two backs. They are on brackets and angled straight to the listening positions. I never liked hiding my speakers but I do keep the covers on the speakers all the time. My side surrounds are elevated a little since I'm sitting so close to him. But the sound I get from the ceiling is amazing. I just watched The Twister movie that was remade in 4k and holy crap.
have you ever heard of pre elevated inceiling speakers with a extra pivotable tweeter? An inceiling speaker also utilizes the ceiling as a endless baffle wich has further advantages in the frequency response! so your ideas are not complete. bookshelves also do not create a cone... in the lows it is more like a full circle... what brings you to the biggest disadvantage of them! unwanted reflextions! just to name some
The advantage of up firing is it means that renters can dip their toes into the world of Atmos. The other three types are what I call "homeowner speakers". Can't really mount anything to walls or in ceiling unless you're creating a home cinema in your own place. This is the big change from 5.1/6.1. Anyone could easily jump into home cinema when it first came out as you could go receiver and decent speakers or one of those all in one options, sometimes with a DVD player or sub running the show. True Atmos is very much more exclusive than 5.1 and that's a shame.
All up firing speakers trash don’t work no matter what you use or how much you pay same with soundbars trash
As you said and going back years 2 at front and 2 at back and maybe soundbar facing you
Shoutouts to all Prime Elevation owners!
You can have in-ceiling speakers that are angled to the listening position like these Polk Audio 80 F/X-LS. I run 4 of them and sound amazing. They are super over kill for Atoms but I like them.
Wow those look great! Do you find you get good frequency response at the MLP?
This was exactly my question. I just could not justify buying atmos speakers. Using bookshelf is way better bang for buck
Many people in Europe use Elevation speakers because of the concrete ceilings here in Europe, or bookshelf speakers. I have elevation speakers, because you can attach them to the wall without any mount. And they are often more compact than bookshelf speakers. I use elevation speakers ( I got rid of my bookshelf topspeakers) and they sound great !!! If you have the right elevation speakers they have the exact angle as is advised for Dolby Atmos without a the need of a mount.
Two disadvantages of the bookshelf is that you lose height. It’s better suited for very tall ceilings where that isn’t as big of an issue. The second factor is comb filtering. It’s not a major issue for ON AXIS but this means only your MLP gets the best sound and the other seats are less optimized. This is why a lot of atmos ceiling designs are co centric.
My in ceilings have movable tweeters which help
I use KEF!
Okay, home theater guy coming from a traditional Polk setup to a Samsung Q990C. Wife and simplifying my life are the reason for the switch. Room is 18x18x10. The rear upfiring are great at reproducing height.The front are okay, but you really have to be fairly close to get the full effect. I am sure larger one like the Klipsch are much better at it especially with a steeper angle. Do I have bullets, planes whizzing overhead, yes. Does rain fall from my ceiling surrounding me, yes. Is it as good as an ideal setup, no. Don't be scared off by videos like this if you have to use upfiring due to your home design or budget.
I have satellite speakers set up as front height and angled towards me as part of a 5.1.2 system and while they definitely provide a much fuller sound and solid height in front of me they rarely produce the sensation of sound right above me but I guess that is to be expected.
The wife factor would kill bookshelf speakers as atmos
Depends on the wife 😉
Well explain video. I always wanted to install in ceiling I even installed a new ceiling so I can pre wire.
I had the elevation the day they came to the market but I didn’t like them. I this point I been using a Polk on ceiling they are flat I put a bracket that are flash to the ceiling and I can angle the speakers to my seating position I’m so happy with the sound just to point out all my bed layer are B&W and I don’t hear the different on the sound having a different brand on my tops.
That sounds like a great solution. Happy to hear you’re enjoying them. Thanks for watching!
I'm using two Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 for my front heights, and two Pro Monitor 800 for the ceiling facing downward to my listening position, but I plan on upgrading them to the 1000 for a bigger sound. My system is a 7.1.4.
I mounted four tubular speakers a foot or so below the ceiling, aimed at my seating position. The two in front are taped to a pipe that was mandated by the City to feed the sprinkler system. The two in back are hung in black rubber tie-down straps from a hardware store. Each strap (two per cylinder) is hung from the ceiling with a pair of two heavy-duty eyelet bolts attached to the ceiling with spreader type nuts over the drywall to distribute the weight. Why rubber straps? To soak up the vibrations, protecting the ceiling tiles they're hung from.
I fully agree with aiming the overhead speakers at the main listening position. I also advocate that after running the automated room EQ pass to match the channels' tonality and arrival times, you manually tweak the volume levels of all channels to make your system's test tone sound equal to you while you're facing the screen.
This is to compensate for the tendency of the typical upward-facing EQ mike to hear the surround and overhead speakers as louder than our forward-facing ears do, causing the automation to set those channels too quiet. which is why I finish up by matching the levels of all channels by ear while facing the screen.
Good vid. I'm almost at bookshelves running 4 kef egg uni q satellite speakers as my heights. They have their own little mounts to which I attached some mecanno style brackets from the local hardware store to attach them more easily to some plasterboard screws in the ceiling, 88db efficient, 80hz cutoff, 100w max, 4" drivers.. I moved them a couple of days ago so they fit within the 55 degree front and back, side to side of the listening position per ht gurus recommendations. They sound fantastic. I bought them for $200 aud second hand.
The thing you've rightly highlighted is for some reason Atmos made people forget about speaker dispersion characteristics. Your listening position just has to be on axis to the speaker. I swallowed the cool aid too having them in line with the mains for more than a year following the stupid diagram from Dolby. I'm a firm believer small angleable bookshelves or satellites IN THE RIGHT POSITION (extremely important) will out perform all other solutions. For the record I've tried Dolby enabled speakers on mains and surrounds and book shelves at the the front and rear high on wall positions as well. These solutions just don't really work.
Nice! Sounds like those Kef speakers are working well for you. You’re right, correct positioning and angles makes such a difference. Thanks for watching!
I am currently observing and educating myself on the home theater experience. I am a novice in this field but I found your video to be very helpful and informative.
Thank you! Glad to have you here!
Can you share the type of mount you use for your bookshelves? I have Klispch elevation Atmos heights and they work great but I don’t have them “perfectly aimed” at my “sweet spot.” I’d like to get them on mounts and aim them directly to my sweet spot to really enhance the quality.
Yes they are “aimed down” but one still needs to “position” them for the best effect.
Btw - nothing wrong with bookshelf. Like you said…just need aimed on mounts. I think people assume you would just hang them and they’d be shooting sound outward in the air - obviously if mounted correctly like yours they’d work fine.
These are the mounts I used. Thanks for watching!
a.co/d/bglbgXr
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Thank you! I know you would think it’s not hard to find mounts, but my speakers are mounted on some framing that was done around the ductwork when the basement was finished. So I was looking for a set that would work being mounted without needing to suspend them through the ceiling on poles yet could still stick out enough and rotate. Those look like they’ll work perfectly!
Thank you!
I have some old Onkyo little bookshelf speakers that i angled down to try atmos while I upgraded my bed speakers (Klipsch Rp M2 series). Now I intend to upgrade em and was wondering what to buy between the angled atmos speaker (rp 500sa 2) or the bookshelf with same dimensions but with rear ported (rp 500 m2). They cost the same and can mount em.
If it were me, I would go with the rp 500 m2.
the speaker placement have to reproduce the sound how the movie director record the sound, of the helicopter moves in front of the screen, the speaker have procure same, is the helicopter sound behind of scene, have to reproduce onde the back speakers, I'm sorry about my english
Yes, I agree. Your English is very good! Thanks for watching!
Bookshelf all the way...I'm restricted to 4 small satelitte speakers for Atmos in a 7.2.4 system. 4x Dali elegance 01. Not sure is they need to be bigger as these have only a 3"woofer and 1" soft dome tweeter.
A fellow bookshelf fan! Thanks for being here and thanks for watching!
I would think you'd have to have an extremely high-end in-ceiling speaker to match the quality of sound from a well-designed bookshelf speaker. I've always been skeptical of in-wall/ceiling speakers over bookshelf/towers until I heard GoldenEar's high end theater speakers, which are absolutely stunning...like most everything GoldenEar does.
A very knowledgeable home theater enthusiast recommended GoldenEar. I silently thank them every day.
I have golden ear in ceiling 7 inch angled for med atmos and rear atmos. Considering at front height for 6 atmos. Room is 14x18 so trying to decide. I am also trying to work out rear speaker placement as I have a closet in the way lol
I chose RP-500SA II speakers, 6 pieces, and installed them on projector mounts on the ceiling, so you can perfectly point them towards the audience, the whole set works with Arcam AVR31 and PA410 power amplifiers, they sound really good like the other Klipsch set - and currently in the 7.1.6 setup, ultimately 9.4.6, however, I am waiting for the delivery of acoustic panels, unfortunately acoustics are very important, which we often do not pay attention to, it is worth investing in acoustic panels
Nice! Sounds like a great setup! Acoustic treatment is so underrated. It’s a shame more people don’t treat their rooms because it is a massive upgrade in sound quality. Thanks for watching!
Have you got any advice for a slanted ceiling. Goes from 10ft on one side to 8 ft. Planning on using some cheap Boston acoustic bookshelf speakers. Mainly to see if I can get any value from Atmos in my room. Thanks for the video!
You could the mount the speakers directly to the ceiling and one set of speakers would be a further distance from the main listening position. This wouldn’t be a huge deal as long as your AVR has good room correction software (Audyssey, Dirac, Ypao etc) to correct for the difference in distance. The other option would be to use a 2 ft extension for the speakers on the 10 ft high section to get them down to the same level as the other 2 speakers. Good luck with your project!
A major positive for using bookshelf is they tend to be higher quality closer to full range and can usually sound better than the angled and in ceiling. The quality of bookshelf speaker that can have a better range and sound quality is a major point in using them as the better speakers choosen will sound better. That's if if passes the wife asthetic factor. I often use auro3D and the auromatic upmixer can make use and actually prefers as close to full range as possible. That way when sounds with lower frequencies are overhead, they can be appreaciated and all of the low sounds don't have to be sent to the sub.
All excellent points. Thanks for adding those to the discussion and thanks for watching!
Some in ceilings are angled to provide aiming to the MLP, so that could provide the best of all the options if they match the base layer drivers. The other reason is for aesthetics. That would be one answer to your question "why not?" Many people put a lot of effort and money into the "looks" of their theater and mounted bookshelves on the ceiling would be a huge eyesore.
Yeah, the “invisible” nature of in-ceiling speakers is a major advantage. I looked into the angled in-ceiling speakers but the price was significant. Lots of factors to consider. Thanks for watching!
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Absolutely a lot of variables to consider indeed. I think aiming speakers to the MLP is optimal for a MLP, single row seating or low ceilings. Perhaps not as much for multi row seating configurations. Regarding price, there are some reasonable priced angled in ceilings from manufacturers such as RSL and OSD, for example, which may fit the bill. It all depends on the approach, matching brands/drivers vs. mix and match I suppose.
I feel like most in ceiling speakers are amiable including the ones in your video. I’m confused
@@dxsloparr I don’t think most in ceiling speakers are aimable really. Typically they are down firing with at most a tweeter that can be angled to some extent. They do exist certainly, but are typically angled baffles which aren’t what he discusses in the video. A ceiling mounted bookshelf speaker, on the other hand, can be simply mounted and nearly infinitely adjusted.
@@gjhunter9326 Sonance makes aimable speakers for $150 a pair at Best Buy. That’s what I bought for my in ceiling. Every major speaker manufacturer makes aimable in ceiling speakers. Where are you finding these non-aimable speakers?
Bookshelf speakers here. Love it.
Just letting you know upfiring speakers work fine however there are a lot of variables to worry about such as angle of the speakers, ceiling height, ceiling material, listening position. If your listening position is too far away you end up running into the problem you were having with your in ceiling speakers the sound doesn't reach you. In my experience they work well for small spaces or if your significant other doesn't want speakers mounted everywhere in the living room. I do think wall mounted sounds better but is it night and day better well no not really if you you've optimized the positioning of the upfiring speakers. I watched an interview with Andrew Jones, he's a speaker designer talking about upfiring speakers and why he likes them. Basically he said instead of hearing exactly where the sound is coming from with a speaker firing straight at you the sound is dispersed above you and you know it came from somewhere above you and to the left so it may seem more immersive. I don't know if that's just what he was telling people to sell speakers but it kind of makes sense.
I really think they get a bad rap from Gene at Audioholics.
I agree with the localisation issue with in ceiling speakers if the ceiling is too low which is why the overall effect could be better with carefully positioned and angled up-firing speakers. The shape of your room will dictate what the best solution is.
What about in ceilings that pivot woofer and tweeter
Those are a decent option but tend to be more expensive.
Looking at your ceiling speakers - why didn't you mount the bookshelf speakers vertically? And would that generally be recommended?
Vertical would be better. But my ceiling is low and I wanted to minimize the chance of someone cracking their head on them.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Copy that
I have the same ceiling mounts as you... I'm using the Polk ES10s for my Dolby Atmos speakers...they are angled down and toed in
I love those mounts
Same.same. 4 ES10s up top😊
Hi I'm looking at mounting Polk ES10s for my Dolby Atmos like you, could you please share a pic of how you mounted them using that ceiling Mount bracket.
@@gab7344 I made a video how I mounted the speakers
How to Install Dolby Atmos Speakers
ua-cam.com/video/Dsd1iiMGVBo/v-deo.html
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Thanks for reply, My reply was meant for @frankkniseley9951also noticed @bretonsmith1939 has the same speakers I have and I would love to see a pichow they mounted their Polk ES10's
You said the bounce atmos doesn’t work but you didn’t even try it.
I’ve read and heard many reports of people who have tried them and they didn’t work. I’ve seen only a couple reports of people who have had success with them. So many factors have to line up, (ceiling height, ceiling material, distance and angle to the MLP, position of speaker etc) that it is rare for them to function correctly. It’s fine if people want to try them, but don’t be surprised when they don’t produce the expected effect.
Does it affect the sound of your bookshelf speakers when they are horizontal and not vertical?
I can’t hear any difference
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome okay I’m about to set up all my sorronds and atmos and the Dali 1001 is pretty big horizontal thanks for the answer
The main problem I have with in-ceiling speakers is that they can end up too close to the listening position and the sound can become localised to them, i.e. you can hear the sound coming directly from each speaker, not as an Atmos positioned object. Having upfiring speakers allows the distance to the listener to effectively be doubled and perhaps pointing the speaker so that the reflected sound is directed at the listener can work well. I’ve never had an Atmos system but I’m moving house so will experiment with speaker placement by playing a stereo source just through the Atmos speakers. Sure, the sound will not be as clear as directly pointing the speakers from the ceiling, but I think the overall effect can be better if the same principles of pointing the speaker through the reflecting surface are followed. In the case of this video, front, up firing speakers probably reflect the sound off the first 1/4 of the ceiling down into the middle of the room, instead of at the listener. If the speakers were angled more at the listener through the reflection you might end up with another issue where sound can be heard directly from the speaker as well as through the reflection unless something (probably acoustically dampening) is placed in front of the speaker to block the direct sound. To me, it seems correctly angled and positioned up firing speakers that are above the listener to stop direct sound, could be a good way to do it. Last thing to note is that the reflecting surface would need to be as non-dampening as possible.
I Have 4 prime elevation speakers pointed at the listening position. It's weird when listening to atmos. It's better when the speakers are not directly pointed at you with in ceiling to give you more of a special effect. You lose the effect when speakers are pointed straight at you
That is very interesting. I wonder why that is?
Hi @GeorgeTheaterAtHome thx for this video. I recommend that you turn your hight bookshelfs 90 degrees. I know it does not look as good as its does right now but to me it looks like you are wasting 50% of your hight frequencies and even worse you are adding ceiling reflections. Bookshelfs are designed to stand and that is especially true for the tweeter. Use them like an elevation speaker and you should have even better sound exoerience.
I have been thinking about the ATMOS a lot. I bought B&W in ceiling speakers when I started my theater and now... I am going with an exposed ceiling and there is heat duct right in the ideal space for the in ceiling ATMOS. I thing the best solution for me is to build boxes for the in ceiling speakers and mount them as if they are book shelf. I would return the in ceilings I have but it's been too long and I don't really want to take a hit on selling them. Any thoughts?
Would the seller you purchased the in-ceiling speakers from be willing to exchange them for bookshelf speakers?
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome I got them from Crutchfield so probably not. I do have a set of B&W 606 s2 book shelfs but they seem kinda large.
My Kef Q150 speakers are 12” x 11” x 7” which is pretty close the size of the 606’s. I have them mounted to my ceiling and they work great. I will say, if you have a low ceiling (my ceiling is 7’ 9” high) try to mount them where people won’t be walking under them. They can be a head buster!
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome wow, this sounds encouraging. My ceilings are a bit over 9 feet. I have a Yamaha RX-a4a so I can only do front or rear height speakers. Of course I would do front and they would be above the front floor speakers, so no head busting.
I mounted 4 outdoor speakers lol. Guess that’s considered book shelf. Same 90x90 tratrix horn as bed layer. Angled them towards listening position. Sounds pretty good. It’s just helicopters and sand and rain noises
I built my 9.2.4 home theater myself so my thoughts are influenced by my specific build.
1. I also have a Samsung 990 up-firing Atmos soundbar system and the effect can be quite spectacular. Not as great as in the dedicated theater but the first time I watched All of Us are Dead the perception of overhead sound was remarkable. And it may have been synthed and not true Atmos. I have no issues with its height/overhead effect.
2. I'm not sure about the effectiveness of height corner speakers but they seem so much easier to install than in-ceiling speakers. Crawling around inside attic insulation is hideous work. I refuse to ever go in the attic again.
3. Why use a non-aimable ceiling speaker? Mine aim/swivel both the mid/woofer and the tweeter.
4. Bookshelf speakers hanging from the ceiling are probably the best not for the reason you mention but because a well designed mating of driver and bookshelf enclosure is obviously going to provide better sound than installing any ol' driver in an 'infinite baffle' ceiling cavity. Now, a really well designed in-ceiling/enclosure might be almost as good but those generally still seem to have more compromises than a great sounding bookshelf speaker. Of course, a bunch of boxes hanging from the ceiling is not ideal esthetically.
bouncy house speakers absolutely do not work for atmos. I've moved them to a shelf above my screen and use them as "front height".
Techno Dad posted a video about why using height speakers angled down at the MLP gave the best atmos sound and was able to travel around the room above not just above. I have 4 height speakers angled down at the MLP all Klipsch atmos bookshelf speakers and it’s night and day difference.
If I had it to do over again or decided to redo my ATMOS/surround speakers, I would use book shelf speakers on gimbled mounts. I do have a limitation with a door close the one speaker mounting location which makes a book shelf speaker selection limited due to the depth of most book shelf speakers. I'm currently using Polk OHM5 speakers for ATMOS and Surround. I like them for my room because its small-ish and there is a door near the corner where a rear speaker is mounted. The speaker design/mount is so close to the wall it has no impact on the door's swing. The ceiling speakers mount at a 45 degree angle pointing directly at the listening location and are unobtrusive. ATMOS ceiling mounts would also work well, but I would need some very solid mounts that can support the weight of good heavy bookshelf speakers. The OHM's have built-in mounting keys that work at multiple angles and even come with a corner mounting bracket if needed. All rooms are different so each room has its own limitations.
Unfortunately, my ONLY option is to try to use the (so called) bouncy house speakers. I’m still experimenting with them.
ceiling speakers are not needed to be directed, thats the point of atmos. regardless of position, you will hear the environment of the scene. atmos effect isnt continous like dialogue.
I use round anthony gallo speakers. Baseball size for the 4 ceiling and softball size for the front,middle sides and back. All of them aimed at me. Nice!
You should test techno dad's atmos demo - talks about this on his newest video also. The old youtube video / demo is called "Dolby Atmos: In-Ceiling vs Height Speaker! Which is better for your setup? Let's test it out!"
the angled ones are easy to use, most consumers what that. and you could add 9 of then to the system .
9 Atmos speakers?
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome no, but iv head if you keep all the same it sound better.
The source material holds the atmos experience back. There's not enough information being sent to atmos speakers to begin with. To really enjoy great atmos mixes, you need bigger drivers that's full range speakers that can provide enough bass to make a real difference in sound.
Call me crazy, but I went from 7 chan atmos system to just a LCR, 3 chan setup. I put my L/R directly to the sides of my seating position where surrounds would traditionally go. I actually enjoy more how it sounds lol
If you design a dipole to use as up firing such that the dipole null is pointed at the listening area, it would probably work a little better but it still wouldn't be ideal. I don't think there is really any substitute for actually having something mounted in the ceiling.
I don't see any reason a bookshelf speaker wouldn't work perfectly fine.
People rely on calibration too much for up firing speakers. That’s their issue. There is no calibration process that is going to get it correct. They work just fine if you are good enough to calibrate them manually. This is also an issue though. However, I’ve done blind test with in ceiling, on wall, and up firing. Only a person with a stellar ear can notice the difference it’s minimal though.
With that said in ceilings placed correctly wins in my opinion. Not because it sounds better per say. However because it was easier than messing with and setting up the up firing. If you are obsessive compulsive you can make bounce speakers work perfectly. At least in my last home theater. I have a dedicated theater in my new house and went with in ceiling placed perfectly.
I used two Bose in ceiling speakers on the left and right side of the couch and they work perfectly fine as rear surrounds or Atmos heights I switch between 5.1 and 3.1.2 Atmos whenever it works. Anybody got any recommendations for a wireless connection for a sub?
I bought some bookshelf speakers for the height (eBay specials, very cheap, yet in good condition) by the same manufacturer, and same vintage as my mains and surrounds.
a) they have roughly the same tonal balance as the rest.
b) much easier for me to install than ceiling speakers - less risk of electrocution or bursting a pipe!
c) can angle them how I want due to the brackets I'm using.
d) cosmetically a match for the rest of the speakers.
Seems to work pretty well so far. I never even considered the upward firing speakers as I imagine setting them up to bounce sound off the ceiling how you want is virtually impossible in all but the most 'ideal' room. I also dismissed the angled speakers for the same 'why would you not use bookshelf speakers for this' reasons you did!
I like using 6 in ceiling speakers for the Atmos speakers, now I don’t think their was many constraints, but I could be mistaken… but over all I like using the in ceiling, since the height effects should come from above you, so having the speakers up their, works out, I am still trying to find a great movie, or audio that uses 6 height speakers above me, which I am still trying to find, if anyone has any good suggestions for movies that will have good/accurate height effects
There is a 5th option ( which i am using ) : Elipson Planet M speakers ( a french brand) , which is a perfect sphere shape ( sealed design), and you can buy their original in-ceiling mount . So in the end once installed , u can see it’s half a sphere that is protruding from your ceiling . It’s very aesthetically pleasing , minimalist , and i am happy with the sound with my of those 4 height speakers.
I think their marketing is not as strong in USA, hence the low exposure . but the sound quality is great.
Find a dealer in your area to try it. i think it’s a perfect solution as the design is sphere shape .
Why not install the ceiling speakers directly over the seating position then?
Because then you would have multiple speakers all producing sound from the same location. The speakers need to be spread out so you hear the sounds coming from different locations.
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome I see, thanks
I have my elevation speakers on the actual ceiliing, as they are slanted, the front top ones as directing sound towards me and mostly to middle of room. Then the same with the back top ones, towards me from above directed from behiond my head. So although I am using elevation speakers they are not attached to the wall. I drilled a hole for each speaker on the ceiling where I wanted. Then put in raw plugs, then screw, and used the keyhole mount on the back of each speaker.
Coaxial in ceiling speakers , like KEF, work much better than the aim-able tweeter type especially when sitting off axis
The Height style speakers can have an advantage over bookshelfs. Many bookshelf style speakers do not offer a way to attach a mount without drilling into the cabinet. Height style speakers normally have provisions to attach a mount properly. They can be installed on the ceiling and properly aimed at the MLP by using a proper mount. As with any speakers in the system, be sure whatever speaker is used for Atmos can be crossed over correctly at 80Hz.
I use up firming super-ball speaker’s, so the sound will effectively bounce off the ceiling! 😂
I am running a 7.2.4 set up with big vaulted ceilings and an open concept house. I went the route of bookshelf speakers.. … in hindsight, not sure the positioning is the best, but I worked with what I had. my front heights with the brackets I purchased are just over 8 feet high at 45° angle, slightly wider and closer than my main towers. my rear height speakers are only about 7 feet high at the bottom of the slope. And since they’re closer to the main listening position and lower, I’ve got them closer together. To position my front heights, I measured 5 feet forward and then 5 feet to either side of the main listening position.
Am I rear heights were 4 feet behind and then 4 feet to either side …. If that makes sense. The speaker positioning may not be the most optimal, but I had to work with the restraints of my living space. I’m very happy with the set up and I think it sounds pretty damn good.
The only thing you didn't really mention is some in ceiling speakers are aimable as well, with angled and tunable drivers, so best of both, hidden and direct. I went with the SVS elevations because they came with the mount and I put them on the ceiling. It's in an unfinished basement, so I didn't think in ceilings were my best option.
Do you have any front hight speakers in youre setup ? If not do you experience that the sound comes from that direction with help from the atmos speaker with out having any front higth and same with rear higth ?
I have 4 Height speakers. Two front and two middle. They sound amazing and create a very immersive experience. Thanks for watching!
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome thanks 🙂 another question for u 🙂, my tv does only support 5.1 but if I use natural x In my marantz do u think the Marantz fix this for me ?
Don’t run audio thru your tv at all. Do all audio processing and amplification thru the Marantz AVR
@@GeorgeTheaterAtHome Iam thinking of getting a nvidia shield to go around the problem with the tv .
On my 7.4.4 system 8 of my surronds are Klipsch RP600m and 4 hung to the ceiling with some hangers I welder up.
I think one solution for the in-ceiling speakers is what Sonance did with the Sonance VX62R. These speakers can be installed in ceiling and can be angled towards the listening position instead of pointed downwards. I have these speakers as my top fronts.
I'm using 4x klipsch aw400 exterior bookshelf speakers as ceiling speakers as they have mounting bracket integrated.
I have had Atmos since about 2017. I started with All-weather speakers. Really cheap ones ($50 a pair) just as a "proof of concept" to see if Atmos worked. Long story short, it worked like a charm.
A couple of years later, I upgraded from the cheap all-weather speakers to a much more expensive pair of Def Tech all-weather speakers that matched my center channel. These were much better than the original pair and enhanced my Atmos a bit more. Noticeably better.
Then when I bought a home, I started setting up a dedicated room and switched to a pair of bookshelf speakers that matched my front mains. The bookshelf speakers have been, by far, the best option.
Now I am getting ready to upgrade from 5.2.2 to 7.4.6. Really excited to get started.
Nice!! I like your approach of dipping your toe in with a low cost option to prove out if it actually works. Good luck with your project. It sounds like it will great! Thanks for sharing and thanks for watching!!
Enjoy your time. What about theater dimensions
@@mediaconnect4135 the dimensions of my theater is 12 x 20. Because of the length I feel it will benefit from 6 height channels. Especially because I am setting up 2 rows
I’m a 25yr long veteran of the DIY “cult”😂 ( now retired at 72), and member of the system wide timbre matching school of thought - i e the same make if not model on all channels - but that can be hard to achieve if you’re not able to build from the room from scratch around the system - or commit to major renovations with each moving of the target of “best design”. What I have been able to achieve in an already fully finished basement room is commonality on the bed layer - a combination of DIY towers and small bookshelf enclosures for the 3 front row & front /rear surrounds, with 4 channels of budget priced in wall & ceiling types for the Atmos effects channels.
It’s taken well over 10years to get this system to its current status- I’m currently on my 4th AVR and at least third upgrade of external amps - and hopefully have finally been vaccinated against further resurgences of the FOMO virus that plagued my first 30 years addicted to this hobby.
@@mediaconnect4135 my theater dimensions are pretty good though not perfect: 20 x 12 x 7.5. Plenty of space for the 7.4.6 setup I am planning (currently up to 7.2.4)
The room has a lot of limitations. Some of which were recently fixed, but still have some work to do. The big one I cant fix are the fact that the rear wall is half glass because its a sliding glass door that accesses the back yard and pool. And the other major issue is that the ceiling is slanted. 8 feet on the right side, 7 feet on the left side. Right in the middle its 7.5 feet high. My height channels are about 10" difference in height from the floor and seating area.
Makes perfect sense. I have a 7.2.2 setup, plan to do front bookshelves after I install a 120" ALR screen for short throw projection. Speaker dispersion is critical for the MLP. One type of ceiling speaker you forgot to mention is LCR Ceiling speakers. They have the ability to direct the tweeter in a 2 way speaker. Most don't allow the directional woofer to be pointed at your MLP. Therefore angled ceiling heights or ceiling mounted bookshelves remain the best option for the most decible gain, clarity and lower distortion.
I went with an even more uncommon atmos speaker: a center channel. I was looking to find a very shallow but lightweight speaker that had mounting holes. Certain speakers have limited orientation placement because of their horizontal and vertical dispersion patterns.
So I was able to procure 4 Martin Logan Motion 8i speakers that would allow me to have very steep and flexible placement angles while keeping the tweeter vertical to maximize their excellent horizontal dispersion while minimizing their lack of vertical dispersion. I was also able to get them quite flush with my ceilings too.
The most flexible type of bookshelf speaker you can use are ones with concentric drivers, so you mount them horizontally or vertically. You were wise to choose the kefs exactly for that reason.
Started out with reflective went to wall mount bookshelves then to ceiling mount bookshelves. Ceiling mount bookshelves is definitely the way to go.
Thank you.
Ordering either Micca RB 42's or NHT .Zeros.
I'm doing a home theater in a new house. I plan to slant part of the ceiling, not just to serve the interior decorative, but also to house the in-ceiling speakers at the best angle.
Never do bounce speakers in ceiling or on wall only
I use 4 x Klipsch RP-400M bookshelves for my heigh channels. Sounds awesome
6.2.6 Sony pure. Atmos is four SS-CSE all angled at seated position. Finally for rear surround SA-RS5s which has full ear level and upfireing speakers. Reasoning is my room is 9 x 9 x 9 rental apartment so I can mount but not drill holes. Bookshelf is a no as I have a wife, who gave temper tantrum on the SS-CSEs, and bookshelves would be bigger and uglier.
The tricky thing about home theater is every room is different and we all have unique constraints we have to work around. But we do the best we can with what we have. Sounds like you have a great setup. Thanks for watching!
agree with using bookshelf or smaller satellite speakers mounted on the ceiling and pointed at the listening position.