ATMOS doesn't make sense
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Dolby Atmos is getting pushed like something we haven't seen in the music industry in a long time. I have my doubts about its staying power and so I have a message I'd like to share with fellow audio engineers as to how I think we can responsibly proceed.
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0:00 Intro
1:48 My Atmos experience as a listener
4:10 How much will an Atmos studio cost?
5:25 The Atmos push feels contrived
7:29 The numbers don't add up
9:48 The Atmos Experience
15:27 Confusing Messaging
16:47 Where do we go from here?
#ATMOSmixing #dolbyatmos #spatialaudio #seawellstudios
You know what Atmos folded down to two speakers is? Stereo.... And that's how 99.9% of consumers will experience it. The fact that Apple has said that their curated playlists will be Atmos only tells me everything I need to know. This is an attempt at gatekeeping. The majors are mad that a kid can produce and easily distribute a hit record from their bedroom.
Well said bro.
yep!
Boomer
I hadn't thought about that but makes perfect sense... I'm not a whole lot into conspiracy theories, but the fact that nowadays you can have actual amazing records in a bedroom has shaken up the whole industry.
as an independent record label of 15 years now, I can agree with you. The tastemakers who change the music world, in fact, have made bedroom records ( ummm eilish, hip hop, etc) and as an early apple adopter, since steve left the company, the music dept of apple has been pathetic and an attempt to grab everything in the market share of streaming. def artists on our label asked us what it cost - lowest mix cost per track I have found is 1K if bundled for an LP. Mastering is another 500- 1K per track.
As someone who designs Atmos mixing rooms and private cinemas, I 100% agree with you. The experience of immersive music and soundtracks is honestly surreal when listenening in the right environment. However, you need to spend hundreds of thousands to get that experience and its only an option for the very wealthy or for production studios doing Film and TV. It's hard enough to get people to buy a nice set of stereo speakers, so its almost impossible to get consumers to go out and buy an atmos rig.
That sounds like a cool job! Thanks for sharing based on your expertise, it's much appreciated.
Sonos and Alexa speakers can do surround sound, several times as good as TV speakers, and it's not too crazy expensive.
@@stevenswall
There are orders of magnitude difference between what this person does versus the consumer level stuff you mentioned.
@@matthewgaines10 Sure is. I'm addressing the last part about consumers not buying in, as I think it's cheaper and more convenient than ever.
@@stevenswall Alexa is not an Atmos system, whatever they say. It just has a surround function like most audio towers from the 90's used to have. Pretty useless, but if you like it use it.
I am a 70 year-old, now retired, engineer and musician who starting working as a gigging and studio musician when I was 13 years old…some 57 years ago. One of the most important facts I came to understand during my career was something you stated when you related your experience at the John Mayer concert. We, musicians and engineers, believe that all the hard work we do to perform as perfectly as possible at all times will be appreciated by our listeners. The reality is that the vast majority of recorded and live music listeners do not listen with the same level of interest and criticality that we do…actually far from it.
I always love hearing from those that have been at it a lot longer than I have. Congrats on your career! I hope retirement is treating you well. Thank you for taking the time to watch and comment, I appreciate it.
so on point. i am and engeneer and sound designer. 75% of my work is just to please my own standarts….
@@NeilRaouf nothing wrong with that! It definitely makes the job more enjoyable.
If you do your job right, people don't notice it. That doesn't mean it's not important, though. Do it wrong and they WILL notice. Well, except for some concertgoers, I guess
So why should we cater to the “ majority”. The “ majority” of people drink crap beer, not Craft. The “ majority” of people don’t know what a Grenache takes like. The list goes on and on. If we catered only for the “ majority” the world would be a mind numbingly boring place. Whilst Atmos is not the holy grail of audio, once upon a time audiophiles protested that two speakers made no sense given instruments come from one source so this new fangled “ stereo” thing is just a fad. The world moves on, we need choices and for many what the “majority” puts up with means shit.
Like Benn Jordan said in his exposé on the subject, it boils down to economic gatekeeping in an industry where the creators are just getting the shaft and it’s basically designed for the hardware manufacturers and the record labels to make more money
Benn's video is great!!! The gatekeeping thing is really getting on my nerves. That's not something I think we need to return to.
@@SeawellStudios i agree. 3D mixing plugins have existed for more than a decade and they actually sound good on stereo devices that don’t cost a grand
After a whole pile of consideration this 40-year pro audio agrees with you on every point 100%. I think this is a bold cash grab by our industry.
Dolby Atmos do make some sense bro I mean virtualization
@@CraigScottFrost But that's cheating 😂
@@rekhashaw3948 I think it makes a lot of sense in film and gaming, just not so much in music.
You might have missed a bit of the message here if you reduce the argument displayed to "it's a bold cash grab by our industry" - which has been the most boring, reductionist breakdown of any of the more or less recent technologies. A bold cash grab looks very, very different from that. Try ölbach snake oil cables or something.
our is a strong word bro
ATMOS is great in a theatrical type setting. But for normal music, stereo still works better with most casual listeners.
Agreed 👍🏼
If the recording and mixing is done right and the stereo setup is correct then you get basicly an "Atmos" feel from stereo anyway😝 When you already feel like sitting in the studio you don't need more speakers and more advanced mixing. But the concept could be great if done right. But most sadly don't do it quite right even in stereo mixes so...🙈
But for home theatre.. Absolutely👍
@@SeawellStudios...Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, The Police, Snow Patrol, Elton John, Mike Oldfield, Norah Jones, Genesis...🤷♂️...🤔
Classics! No Atmos needed 👍🏼
@@SeawellStudios Dark side of the moon is actually great in atmos if you have the system for it!
In the home, most regular people don't even listen in stereo, let alone anything more.
Your laptop/tablet/bluetooth speaker/whatever may have stereo output... but when those speakers are that close together, it's basically mono.
I don´t share this experience. At least it's not the case with my Macbook Air M2 with boom 3D.
And they're tiny garbage multirange speakers .
Read in these very threads about actual engineers preaching that earbuds are fine and can play Atmos...it's hilarious.
Most people are being nearly fine with a medium qualitymono sound. Or worse
I absolutely had to subscribe to your channel because of your balanced and extremely sensible perspective. After watching a few pro-ATMOS videos, I decided to stay away from them completely. Anything new in the audio industry is an opportunity for people to make money (especially youtubers). Your balanced no-nonsense perspective is phenomenal, practical and helpful.
Man..thank you so much for your kind words! That means the world to me.
Who is making money from pro-atmos videos and how?
Definitely sensible but I’m really frustrated and saddened because there is an entire component to spatial audio that hasn’t been included and without it the picture of what Atmos is is complete skewed. No wonder this engineer is frustrated. Without the full view I’d probably feel the same. I have my own frustrations with Dolby but not with Atmos or immersive audio. Dolby isn’t completely at fault for their lack of communicating what spatial audio actually is and how their piece of the puzzle fits in to it all, but as one of the major players they have A LOT of work to do on the education side of things - based on the mass confusion and wildfire of lack of understanding I seeing in the comments. I’ve being involved in mixing surround sound for almost 15 years now for 3D/4D motion ride film and spatial audio finally frees me from the chains that surround imposes. I have a 7.1.4 Atmos system in a room I purpose built to accommodate immersive audio and the music I write but I still use stereo and surround for TV and film post production because I mix to what the project needs and not only to a format of that makes sense. But I do also mix film in Atmos. This post is probably more confusing than helpful because I can’t even start to get into the component that’s missing without causing mass confusion. Let me see what I can do to post a video or something in response to try to bring some additional information to the conversation. Without it, the wildfire of conjecture and misunderstanding is just going to perpetuate like it continues to here. None of my comments are directed in response to yours other than to say I appreciate also the manner in which the video was approached but unfortunately, there is information that is missing that is pretty significant to the overall piece of the puzzle - thus understandably the frustration and confusion of the author.
Let me see what I can do
@@ProAudioIQ Alexander, thanks a lot for sharing. I am primarily an academic who is a serious hobbyist musician. One thing I appreciate about audio recording technology is the gift of learning and unlearning. It never stops! As implied in my comment, one of the biggest frustrations for me has been on the marketing side of things (e.g., buy these monitors, this interface...etc, etc). Worse of all, this marketing crap often comes from folks who are new to atmos themselves. I feel more of that information exists compared to credible information on the 'why and how' of atmos. I just subscribed to your channel and will be delighted to see a video...especially considering your depth of experience.
@@esongsore thank you. Over the years I’ve wanted to start some type of communication on UA-cam, but just never have. This might be the time to start. I was up actually till after 2 AM trying to figure out the best way to approach this, so it has the greatest amount of information in the shortest amount of time. I appreciate your little push. I’ll keep going here with it.
I think a main problem with atmos is the combfiltering inherent to spacial audio, regular panning is unrealistic but that doesn't mean it's bad, chorus is unrealistic, flangers are, phasers are, huge reverbs and delays are, but we don't do it because it's realistic, but because it sounds good. Real immersion is about believability, not reallism, it's about creating something that is internally consistent, not a perfect recreation of reallive.
I never thought of these stereo effects being an issue in Atmos.. that's a huge issue .
The closer you get to realism the more uncanny valley starts to set in
@@Grant82gc Because they aren't an issue. You just have to learn some new rules when mixing Dolby Atmos, but you can pretty much use all the tools used for stereo mixing.
It isn't even a "perfect recreation" if audio sources are placed at absurd positions. What sene does it make to have stuff (other than reverb maybe) coming from all around you? That literally never happens in any real life situation, except maybe when a marching band moves through the audience as a one-off gimmick. It's distracting, and such a distributed ensemble wouldn't even play together very well.
@@dkpianist I think that the best mix in situations like a band's recording is one of two situations, either put the person listening Front Row Center, right in front of the singer and have the instruments pan "back" from there (moving forward from the singer through to the drummer behind the singer and then guitars off to one side, base on another, keyboards further left/right, etc...
or
Put the listener on the stage, singer in the listener's position so to speak and then the members of the band to either side and back of that to some degree... drums furthest back but center, mostly. Each instrument (including each instrument of the drum set) would have to be their own object. and thus mixing would be entirely on the PC as far as placement and such. (Panning etc.).
Any Reverb and Delay would have to be done more from a "venue sound" type of soundscape, unless doing very specific things for story telling.
Wild songs with wild panning like Voodoo Child (Slight Return) would, in this case, have to be done more from a perspective of the listener, and how the sound would branch out from the listener's perspective. Those wild pans they did with it in mixing, would have to be thought of more from how it expands from the listener's perspective, and where things move from that... for the studio version. For a live version, that would be more of going to one of the previously mentioned methods. I mean, take the studio panning, it's meant to be from the psychedelic perspective of the sound "branching out" from the mind's singular perspective into "something more" which is why it pans and "branches" out like it does in those wild ways. So it would have to be thought of similarly. You don't just pan to the back for no reason, having the object jump from it's position and then wildly jump like that... you think more of one object "becoming" two and briefly panning just beyond the listener in a branching method wildly to and fro in a vibration of sorts and then back into one... yea that's kind of stereo but then you can have say... An instrument is sitting in one position, but then starts to branch out and start to "appear" in multiple places, sort of like in a visual sense... one would be in one place, but feel that you've moved out in space-time in an out of body experience to another location on stage temporarily... that kinda thing. Psychedelic stuff is like that, and thus the mix has to be thought of in those sort of ways.
5.1 music failed as a consumer format and it sounded great when done well, how will Atmos do any better?
This certainly has a push that we didn't see with 5.1 but it still doesn't have the consumer interest which is ultimately why I'm not so sure it sticks no matter how hard those pushing it try.
SACD is an amazing 5.1 format. I would say the failure is on companies support for the format of 5.1 not people. Just try to find a 5.1 sacd player now. You can't and streamers all only support stereo. Atmos will only do as well as the hardware that is put out. The price has to be right and the industry has to back it for people to use it. From what I see it's expensive, not used properly and therefor might fail.
Sound engineers and music producers are cursed, because we cannot listen to the music as a whole final product. We dissect it, analyze it, thinking how it was done. So your story from the concert is something I can really relate to 😉
It definitely is a blessing/curse and is awfully hard to turn off.
@@SeawellStudios Last time I went to a festival, I kept earplugs on pretty much at all times and didn't bother analyzing anything. Probably the first time in my life when I didn't even check out the sound systems that much. With my overly sensitive, somewhat broken ears I couldn't have made it without. The plugs were some random batch of cheap silicone swimming plugs (from Lidl) that had way too flat of a response printed on the side of the box (except for anything over 8 kHz where the attenuation goes up quick). But the are actually pretty much on point and I was amazed how good they were, especially attenuating super loud bass.
@@HulluJanne That's awesome! We just got a Lidl here so I need to pick up a pair 👍🏼 I definitely am trying to avoid loud concerts at all cost to extend this mixing career as long as I can.
@@SeawellStudios I sure hope you can find some! It's years (around 2017 or so) since I bought mine. They were Sensiplast Aqua Earplugs, green with a red ball at the end. The red ball is a part of a plastic insert, which I've since removed and cut the body of the plug a bit shorter to make them less of an eye sore.
Mean values
Hz 125-250-500-1000-2000-4000-8000
dB 28.3-28.5-28.0-25.4-30.8-30.9-41.3
Standard deviation
dB 4.9-6.1-5.5-4.6-4.6-4.9-4.6
Assumed protection (APV)
dB 23.4-22.4-22.5-20.8-26.2-26.0-36.7
The slightly lesser amount of attenuation around 1k makes hearing other people speak really easy. In a bar it feels like cheating :D
Only gripe I have is that they may not be the most comfortable ones. But a super big plus side is that you can adjust the attenuation on the fly by how deep they are inserted to the ear canals. But for that I think one has to have pretty small/medium canals.
@schlawpyJ 🤣🤣🤣
I appreciate your measured and informed take on this as a whole. It’s not worth writing a small essay in this comment but you are not alone, as a fellow engineer, your sentiments are my thoughts exactly. Thanks for making this video.
Thank you so much for taking the time to watch and comment! I'm so glad to hear from a fellow engineer that it was a meaningful video.
Thank you for letting us be okay with great stereo mixing.
I still get fully immersed by great stereo mixes...goose bumps and all 👍🏼
There's not a contest between Stereo and this new format, in fact, stereo is the foundation of the format. If you are doing mixes from stems which is 99% of what people want, and can afford to do… There's no need to make it a contest, that's not real :)
@@SeawellStudios great stereo can do 180°, this format does triple that canvas size with double the dynamics and is superior to headphones. IF done properly, which again is almost never done ... we are in the early days of engineering skills.
No one said it was a contest. Some people prefer stereo, that's all.
I think the general tech of Atmos is great, I'm just not sure music is the best application for it. Some like it, many, if not more do not. I do enjoy it for movies though.
That truly is disgusting that labels not only expect but even demand an atmos mix and they’re not even willing to pay for it. I’m with you man. I think it has potential in many areas (gaming, cinema, even classical/orchestral) but everything else, I’m still yet to be convinced.
That could be because they may be cheapskates!
Track down a copy of Ambra's Prism of Life in Atmos, or Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. I guarantee it will convince you of the potential of DTS:X and Atmos. Of course there are many bad Atmos mixes and I still listen primarily in stereo, but nothing beats a good Atmos mix.
@@Andystuff800 yeah I’ve heard the DSotM one. It’s good. I don’t think it’s that there are bad atmos mixes as such. In fact I’m sure a lot of them are fantastic. I really do see the potential of it when you’re sitting in a listening environment that it was made for. It just does not yet translate well to binaural, which is what 99% of people listen on because they don’t have the space or $ for a good atmos room.
Believe or not the labels aren’t the ones pushing it, it’s Apple that’s doing it. Labels actually hate it because of extra production costs
@@joesmith4443 that doesn’t surprise me in the slightest
The entry point for most consumers is two speakers (cans or cones). Dolby, Apple, Sennheiser et al understand that consumers who care enough to spend money on either an array of speakers or a personalized HRTF are a significant minority. The hard sell (from all quarters) therefore is "you don't need 10 speakers because this 3d, immersive, 360˚ ambeosonified mix will literally make you dizzy with how amazing it sounds on two speakers"
The hard truth is that if you really want a sound to originate from a location, it's far and away a best practice to place an actual sound source (speaker) in that location. Ultimately therefore cost scales linearly with immersiveness.
You’re exactly where I am with this man. It’s the engineer who has to do more work and spend more money for something nobody knows exists except industry people who are pushing and selling it. Im about to build a new studio and I don’t know what else to do but get ready for it, it’s just a big expense for engineers and a big money grab for investors and people on top. Nobody wins. Personally I consider myself an audiophile and I haven’t heard a spatial audio mix or atoms mix that I cared for. I have it switched off on my phone. Mixes are already 3D. All you need is two speakers, reverb and panning to create depth and width. Our brains are already Atmos. It’s often complicated enough to get a mix to work in stereo. I get it for film and cinema, because sound design make sense in atmos. But it’s just really a bummer that everyone is ramming this down our throats.
It is a huge mess at this point 😞 I wish you the best with your new studio build, that's exciting!
“Our brains are already Atmos” - exactly, you nailed it in one line! I regard Atmos for the audio (=streaming!) market as a scalability format that should allow an “optimised” listening experience across all consumer levels. This puts the onus onto the studios/engineers to provide a maximum experience at the level they are currently capable of. Perhaps distribution should consider classifying Atmos streams as “mixed for x listening”, where x is anything from mono, stereo, binaural, immersive, surround 5.1, surround 7.1, etc.
It's true that it's mostly bad products but the format is amazing done well. For now don't get speakers, all you need is Air Pod Pro 2 and Logic and SKILLS. The skill is the hard part, I'm working on teaching things no one is teaching. As for good Spatial to stream, would you like a list?
@@paulwilliams9847 better engineering is key. Beating the stereo headphones is very doable with more skill than is normal today
@@brianlucey832 That's exactly what I recommended in the video Brian, for engineers to start learning now on headphones + Logic as the most affordable solution. I tried AirPods and Beats first, then settled on AirPods Max.
Apple Vision Pro is the main reason why apple is forcing Dolby Atmos. They want to have a lot of content for it.
I agree and understand Apple's desire to push it as it fits their product line. I don't think the Vision Pro is going to help much though with mass adoption for atmos music, particularly not at the $3499 price tag.
also, other speaker and audio companies push towards atmos (for obvious rise in sales). Apple seems to b a goood excuse to urge ppl towards atmos. 😂
Right but when did stereo not get the job done
Apple is not pushing Dolby Atmos. They have their own format, Spatial Audio, which is what the Vision Pro uses, not Atmos.
If you're going to criticize a certain technology, make sure you've done your due diligence in researching it first
@@pc_buildyb0i935 that’s like VR and AR same difference who’s running around with glasses? Who’s running around for spatial audio and atmos from what I’ve read atmos is the base of it?
Excellent story regarding the concert speaker issue. I think about this a lot and I would love to see a scientific study on the average person's threshold for good sound quality. I suspect that it's very low. Also, another thing to consider about how the average person listens to music...unless they're wearing headphones, they almost NEVER even listen in stereo. They're either in a car, in a club, bar or party, listening on a pill, or walking around the room. Only engineers and audiophiles sit perfectly between the speakers. So even if a legit Atmos speaker setup was affordable, how many people do they think are going to want to anchor themselves in one spot to listen to music? And how many listening environments can accommodate a proper speaker setup? Most people's couches are up against a wall. Surround sound is so impractical. And the binaural headphone experience is essentially added ambiance. There's nothing "surround" about it.
I don't like how you present headphones as an exception to when people listen to stereo, because this exception is probably THE biggest medium of how people consume music, most people have two headphones in, not everyone has cars, most people take public transport and have headphones. Typical gym goers have two headphones in , the list goes on. Give an average person a mono mix on headphones, they will know, especially if they've heard a stereo mix before. They wouldn't be able to describe it but they would probably say the sound is not big enough etc.
Since you bring that up, there's something else along these lines. What about the experience of people, friends, listening to music together? Let's say you'd like to show 3 or 4 friends the latest greatest mix in Atmos. Where are you going to sit them? There's only one spot where you'll enjoy the full experience, and that is right in the center of the setup, which only accommodates one person. So, either you have to take turns listening in that spot or somebody is going to miss out on something. This is just ludicrous.
Good points. However even though the Binaural "surround" is contrived, if the mix is right and especially if the music is good and suitable, my experience with Binaural is very rich and simply does not compare to stereo. So many engineers aren't getting it because, and I say this with respect, they still think in a rock and roll mind. Binaural can avoid that if you're smart and knowledgable about genres. Just my experience.
@@CraigScottFrost nah people know. Because the reality is that headphone-stereo has been intergrated into our everyday music consumption so switching back to back, generally people will know. Unless its a specific song
@@piscesman54 Have you ever listened to stereo while being closer to the left or right speaker? To hear stereo the same way intended by the producer and mixer you have to sit in the right spot and preferably listen on full range speakers. Dolby Atmos is exactly the same, you'll still hear the same music even if you are not dead centre or even if you are just walking around in the room, you just won't get the immersive nature of the format.
Thank you for being sensible! The amount of UA-camrs that have bought into this without a blink of an eye is astounding. Consumers will not care and will be mad when their $30 headphones or Bluetooth speaker sounds like crap with atmos mixes.
I'm so glad you enjoyed the video! The influencer push definitely felt contrived and synchronized with NAMM so I can only wonder what was going on behind the scenes.
If the engineering skill was there, the headphone product would be superior to stereo. That's what I do here.
@@brianlucey832 Hey Brian, great to see you here! Any idea why that's not the case with so many Atmos releases? Is it just poor mixing/mastering in your opinion? I've done a bunch of listening and 9 out of 10, I prefer stereo when critically A/Bing.
@@SeawellStudios yes the engineering is the issue. The product is being released at 30-80% of potential. Beating the stereo in headphones is the standard we all need to hit. I can do it here with any mix although there are better stem making and mixing approaches. I teach clients how. Might open it up. Do small groups here in LA in my room, or with a retailer.
Music sounds like crap on $30 headphones and Bluetooth speakers anyway….
This video is 100% in line with what I’ve been feeling. Thank you!
I'm so glad you enjoyed the video! Thank you for taking the time to watch and comment!
Same here.
this was a breath of fresh air amidst all the hyper inflated....well...hype to be honest. Such a level headed, clear and well thought out response to the Atmos shock most of us studios were facing. For me personally, I already have all the matching speakers I would need except one (we purchased extras of our main monitors for 5.1 in case any drivers failed during a session) and our room is already Dolby and THX compliant, but still...the shock of having to switch over and learn everything just to keep the doors open threw me for a loop for a bit...after some research I came to the same conclusion to just learn on headphones and build my chops at releasing atmos mixes that consistently get approved and then look at the speaker route when everything settles into some form of standard practice. Sure appreciate you clarifying what a lot of us were thinking and being real enough to say it.
I'm so glad you enjoyed the video Kelvin! I wish more UA-camrs would encourage people to experiment with headphones. I think it would actually increase the adoption rate on the engineering side of things. Making people feel like they HAVE to have speakers from the get go is just way over the top to me. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment!
You're bang on with this! Many of us sniffed out this scam from the beginning. Something that is so life changing or compelling will be demanded by consumers, not rammed down from the top.
Yeah to me when I started hearing talk of needing to educate the customers I figured this was in trouble.
I get what you're saying as Apple has crammed a bunch of stuff down our throats over the years like removing disc drives from computers a good while before anybody wanted that. The difference between the iPhone and Atmos to me is that the iPhone was like it was from another planet it was so far beyond regular phones at the time. It was very easy to demonstrate how it was superior and most people wanted the new functions it brought. Unfortunately I don't think people care enough or want Atmos to do the same. I'd say at least half of the people I've talked to(a lot of engineers included) genuinely like stereo better. It's going to be a tough sell.
@@SeawellStudios It really wasn't that far ahead of other smartphones at the time. People just started insisting that Apple invented everything, and suddenly it's a bad thing to have a keyboard or headphone jack.
@@0LoneTechit was, it's hard to remember now but the first iPhone compared to what was out there was a huge leap and it didn't take any convincing of the public that they needed one. People camped out/stood in line for hours just to get one. I don't see any lines forming to buy Atmos equipment 😁
@@SeawellStudios That may have been your experience, but simply wasn't so here or in Japan. See e.g. XKCD 2699. I had S60 phones back then, and the proposition of a phone where everything cost extra and programming on the device was actively prohibited had no appeal.
You spoke the truth brother! The anecdote with the concert: man… I fell you!!
I’m so glad you enjoyed it! I really appreciate you taking the time to watch.
I don't know about Atmos and I never listen via headphones, but when I first heard ''Rock In Rio live'' by Iron Maiden in DTS (I think it was the first ever DTS liveshow in the world in 2001), It just blew me away. Especially when you hear the crowd swelling from behind and how it mixes with the rest of the band. It was by far the best sounding goosebumps inducing liveshow at the time. However, Atmos has extra speakers on the (center) sides and on the ceiling. While the extra center sides might be useful despite being tricky to mix, the ceiling speakers don't add much since there is no sound from ''above'' in music.
Interesting! In that DTS version, was the band mixed primarily in the front and the crowd was making up the majority of the "surround?" I could see live concert mixes being the most applicable for music surround formats for sure.
I use my ears and realised the magic of stereo and the emotion of stereo mixing not only works well for the consumer audience but it’s all they want really. The phase trickery bothered me. I used my AirPods to place a kick drum in Logic in spacial audio and listened as it put reverb on my kick drum and that was it for me. No thanks it’s a gimmick for stereo.
Thanks for your practical and pragmatic considerations about this issue. Those seem to also to be the two factors driving development in audio through the modern era
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment John!
@@SeawellStudios When Taco Bell goes Atmos - I'll be all in 😂
@@johnlance3860 🤣🤣🤣
I was at a Chick Chorea concert sitting on the side and when the concert started our speakers banks were off for the first 12 minutes of the concert. I asked people around me if they noticed that something was wrong, not a single person understood what I was talking about. Then at the moment the speakers came on and it was a breath of fresh air. People have a standard that they know and it is called ear buds, they don't have real speakers in their home and if they do it is for watching tv and not listening to music !
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one! It's wild isn't it? When you're in that moment, you wonder if the whole world has gone crazy haha. Thanks for sharing!
I so appreciate keeping this conversation going! Great questions seeking a balanced perspective as we proceed forward.
I do agree that everyone hears differently, but also it is my experience that the masses reaction at the end of the day can be measured with more people gravitating toward acoustical accuracy.
I believe a persons audible experience is close to 70% room dependent. Once that speaker produces the energy it becomes property of the room. When a room has been properly built and the low end energy gets handled (doesn’t stick around). The textures and phantom center channel can be the undeniable spiritual experience we are all chasing. I have found more pleasure in a 2 channel mix listen to in a properly treated room then any Atmos mix. But maybe it could be that the rooms I have experience Atmos had some standing waves messing with the resolution. I absolutely love the journey of seeking all the little details that make people feel good and the why it is.
Great video.
Great points about the room! If everyone magically had an amazing Atmos room at home this would be a blast! The headphone bit is really depressing honestly but I don't know how we get around it as it seems to be the best we can do so people at least aren't just listening to the speaker on their phone.
This is very enlightening as someone who is more of a consumer level of listener then an audiophile. I have struggled with Dolby Atmos, most of the time even on my airpods max it doesn’t sound as good as the stereo mix, but then I hear a song or album and I am blown away. I will say my home theater does a better job of being more consistent with Dolby Atmos, but in the end I wind up going back to stereo again. This feels like the whole 3d tv fad of a decade ago.
Your experience sounds very similar to mine. I think that's pretty eye opening too considering we're using Apple's flagship headphones. It definitely doesn''t feel like it's being presented in an easy to understand way for the end user. Should Dobly Atmos be set to automatic? Always on? With Spatial Audio off or also on? Head tracking on or off? That's way too much effort already for most people. They are going to have to figure out how to simplify and improve the headphone experience or Atmos for music is going nowhere fast. I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment!
I was the same on headphones. Like, meh, not impressed, what is the big deal. Then I tried out a pair of the new Sonos Era 300 speakers designed specifically for Atmos, it blew me away so much I splurged AU$1500 to own them.
@@duprie37 if you don't mind sharing what size room do you have them in? My ceilings are quite high so I'm curious how well they may do there. Thanks.
I have a Sonos Arc with upward firing speakers and the sound never sounded like it is coming from the ceiling. Compared to my stereo, the Arc is terrible for music. Even my friend, an engineer at Dolby, told me that the bounce thing does not work. You have to have speakers on the ceiling. No way will I ever have a setup like that. I will probably not spend anymore money until I get more reviews of the ERA300s.
@@raymondyc Thanks for sharing your experience! I was interested in the Sonos Arc at one point but I watched a Podcast with a couple from the Sonos team and reading between the lines it seemed like they were encouraging people the get the ERA 300s over the Arc if you're using them primarily to listen to music.
Nice video! Atmos is mainly, if all only at the perfection for movies and video, but when trying to have atmos for music recording, it's simply a stereo sound that's highlighted, but you'll have to always adjust between the types of music.
Agreed and subscribed. Thanks for the great insights and video 🤙
I really appreciate the sub! I hope they'll be more content here that you enjoy.
Completely agree. A format forced on musicians from high up in order to sell more speakers.
Totally agree. Forced to studios and forced to consumers. We really don’t need it.
Great point! Things that are truly better don't need to be forced on people.
Well said! Dolby surround and the proLogic decoders are more than enough for the time being.
Yet virtually nobody has a proper 5.1 system, forget 7.1. Most of the surround music out there is just stereo with delay/reverb in the surround channels. Surround is great when done right but nobody wants to set up their rooms/systems properly. Quad in the 70s was a non-starter too. I wish the industry would learn.
Great points! The fact that it isn't bringing in new revenue is a huge hurdle that I don't see the industry getting over. Even taking Atmos completely out of the equation, we as an industry have got to figure out streaming royalties or there just aren't going to be any talented individuals left that would dedicate their life to this God forsaken industry any longer. Those of us that don't have time to get good at anything else don't have a choice haha.
Thanks for a very good video and analyzing the current situation. I've spent $6000 to get extend my stereo rig to Atmos 7.1.4 - 8 second hand Genelcs, one more JBL 306p to complete LCR front wall, a secondhand Antelope IFC for the 12 outs, a sub, a mac mini m1. SW: renderer, roomcorrection, monitor Ctrl, an upmix plugin. So far I'm happy with the results - it's not Capitol Studios but Im not breaking the bank. IMO this format lives or dies (quietly) with the quality the binaural can produce. Im totally with you in recommending people to get started on HPhones. Looking forward to the next video!
Nice! That sounds like a cool set up.
It seems like I am one of the few who does not bounce the sound off the ceiling, but placed speakers in the ceiling, measured out speaker placements from the seating area? Idk about music, but movies are incredibly immersive and sound amazing.
I believe something similar if not atmos will be the future.
Very cool! I certainly appreciate the care and effort it takes to put in a proper system. I agree, I enjoy it for movies 👍🏼
I think you are correct that in 5 years Atmos will just be a footnote in audio history. We have 2 ears and stereo is the perfect delivery format perfect for us all. Im a veteran producer and find myself incredibly underwhelmed by the mixes so far available. I really like the way you presented this so subbed.
As far as music goes, that is (possibly) correct. But Atmos use and application is gaining exponentially in the video game industry. Saying Atmos is going the way of the dodo because you can't find value in its application is a naive position to take, even if you're very experienced
@@pc_buildyb0i935 I was referring to its use in MUSIC.
@@pc_buildyb0i935 I have to agree. The "infancy project" with Dolby Atmos music is not doing it justice to any degree. Audio post in the TV/Movie world is a whole different story. It is NOT going away. It's the only immersive platform that has ever had a phase coherent collapsible down mix format, that translates to already existing formats... and if done well... is amazing.
@pc_buildyb0i This whole video and the comments are going to be in regards to its use in music so I wouldn't get too worked up about it. This is a channel for music producers and engineers. I do like and appreciate Atmos for where it excels in film, gaming, etc...
See "Nokia" and "Blackberry".
Well said. This is the second in depth discussion done by an actual pro sound engineer. I couldn't agree more.
I’m so glad you found it useful! Thank you for taking the time to watch.
I’ve witnessed an event with a two stage PA set up… one in front of the other… one band perform on one stage, and the other band perform at the other stage… they would take turns 30 min each… one time the other band wanted to play longer and suddenly both bands were playing at the same time… like different songs, people didn’t care, they were drunk and dancing. Some didn’t notice.
Wow..a live mashup! 🤣. That’s wild.
Hi, this is my first time watching your videos and I just wanted to thank you for having the best audio in your video on YT! 😅 It was a calm and an easy experience where I heard every word clearly without having to change the volume on my stereo speakers that came with my turntable.. 😊👏🎬
Thanks so much Ivan! To be honest, this video side of things has been a real challenge for me but I'm striving to continue to get better at it so I really appreciate your kind words.
The Atmos (or immersive) "music" mixes I've heard that I enjoyed most were classical recordings. In those cases the immersive aspect of the mix was subtle and focused on recreating the sense that you were listening live in a concert hall. I've also heard a few electronic music mixes I liked. I have not been impressed with any other popular/contemporary immersive music mixes. (Obviously atmos can sound great on movie soundtracks, etc.)
if the consumer can hear it yes.....but 70% of the people use the phone and those that have expensive stuff in their home dont even know how acoustic works.... in my carreer of making hifi systems , 98% of the people do shit withou sense... too much power in too small room ... with no sense gadget of strange metals and esoteric stuff aahha
That is exactly my experience too. Classical music and film scores benefit the most.
Just like your analogy of the John Mayer concert, I was happy to hear that someone else is aware of the problem. I started mixing in Atmos years ago when it was just released and only ProTools Ultimate supported it. Once Apple released their spatial audio, I was shocked to hear that they use the DD+JOC to re-render a 7.1.4 that they then feed into their spatial engine. Both Amazon and Tidal use the expected AC-4 IMS as Dolby intended, but have to decode it before streaming the audio to Apple devices. And now everyone is holding their breath to see if Spotify will embrace Atmos and if they do, they too will use the AC-4 IMS (assuming that Apple would never license their spatial). This will exacerbate these two ecosystems: AC-4 IMS and whatever Apple does with spatial. The horrible truth is that you can NOT create a single master that is immersive and expect it to fold down on stereo to be heard by consumers on stereo devices. I know that mixing and mastering gurus are jumping through ridiculous technical hoops to try and create a master for all bed widths and binaural, but it only destroys the whole point of what Atmos is - Immersive. It simply must be binaural or just use a separate stereo master because 99.99% of consumers listen on just two: speakers (2.0) or headphones (Binaural). No one is using a 7.1.4 or 9.1.4 setup to listen to streaming music. So just mix and master for Binaural. I have mixed and mastered multiple times with only headphones. And if you listen to my music with headphones on Atmos QC devices it sounds super close to my master. Apple spatial is defintely modified, but good. The stereo is, well you guessed it, not good. How could it be. In the end, the masses will stream with loyalty from their chosen provider without any awareness of what they are actually listening to from a spatial perspective.
I really appreciate you sharing your experiences! It is wild that we don't even have one settled immersive format to deal with. Great points you're raised and I appreciate you sharing them!
You're absolutely right. I'm and Audio Post Engineer, used to be Recording/Tracking Engineer... we still work in Stereo, and barely book enough time to complete sweetening and mixes In Stereo, let alone 5.1. There aren't too many people I know who even have complete 5.1 systems in their home, as well as most International countries still listen to TV in Mono... Noone listens to music in their car in 5.1, nor in headphones, nor on their bluetooth beach speaker ( mono )... I got out of the music industry because everyone started tracking at home, in their home studios, as the Major label money went away... and multi-platinum song writer friends were telling stories of MILLIIONS of plays on Sp*tify and getting $0.45 for the QUARTER for residuals... there is no money in the music industry to justify spending thousands of dollars on Atmos systems, when almost none of the general public will ever be listening in that format ( *maybe * in spatial audio in headphones, but still only a tiny percentage...)... it feels like a way for people to be able to make money on software and hardware again, because most people have already invested in all the equipment and software their studios will ever need... no thanks
Great points! I'm not a commercial recording engineer, but have certainly produced some quality stuff in various home studios and lots of live sound work. YES, we do hear things differently, which is a blessing and a curse. As long as people keep listening to, and are happy with, MP3 streaming and other compressed formats, we are largely just mixing for ourselves!! The effort in producing anything nice is wasted on 98% of the public! Convenience over quality is the whole Apple model. So if the gullible public are told Atmos is amazing, they'll happily follow along, listening to a slightly altered stereo mix on crappy wireless in ear devices, through phones that are in no way a quality audio player, or enduring some wierd reflections created by something that won't get close to a multi-speaker envirnoment. They'll think it's cool and want more. As engineers, we'll be forced in some way to accomodate their desires. :(
This ATMOS thing is mostly for reverb and cinema, so you have to buy more speakers just to get more spacious and atmospheric reverb when you're watching a movie.
Also the calibration of it is really complex, so many things could go wrong (phase, delay compensation, frequency response of the speakers, their placement) no end consumer would do this properly by their own.
Great points Elias! The other thing I've seen for a lot of these consumer systems is that the max recommended ceiling height is 10'. I know in older homes ceilings were usually 8' but a lot of newer homes are quite tall(12-15') or even vaulted.
For me, movies mixed with atmos tend to be clearer on my standard 5.1 box compared to classic surround. The sound positioning is more distinct even though the atmos is only interpreted on the tv and sent to the surround as Dolby digital
Speaker placement is also very tricky. Even Dolby’s home theatre guide is wrong, compared to its studio and cinema guides 🤦♂️
Me: end consumer, about to do 7.2.4 Atmos/DTS:X setup with Dirac pretty properly next year for under 10k total and extremely excited to proceed doing so
Remember, industry veterans cried the loudest about stereo, cried the loudest about 5.1, and now are crying the loudest about Atmos.
If history is anything to go by, this means Atmos will become quite common in the next decade or two
The consumer is who the market follows, not the industry veteran.
@@Gamez4eveR I'm not sure that's the best example though because 5.1 didn't stick for music at all. History has repeatedly shown that surround formats are A) Too difficult to deliver to the end user on a mass scale and B) Not interesting enough to consumers(for music) for them to invest in it. Also, every time the industry attempted those changes in the past, you at least had a new physical format to sell and really capitalize on the increased revenue by selling the back catalog to consumers that had already bought the previous format version of those albums. Atmos has no new format to sell, an atmos stream brings in the same as a stereo stream. So, no one is crying here, I think there are just some of us pointing out that even though Atmos may be interesting or fun, it financially doesn't make sense.
Josh, your observations here are spot on. Atmos is an attempt to funnel everyone back into the big music industry establishment. But, it sounds like they want a one-sided deal where they're putting too much of the cost burden on the consumers and the engineers. And like you said, they haven't given engineers enough time to learn it properly. Rushed Atmos mixes are going to damage that brand for good. I love 3D Blu-ray, but they shot themselves in the foot with high costs and a lot of shoddy releases. If they go down this one-sided path then Atmos is a house of cards. People who invest in it will get hosed. It also won't be long until something better than Atmos hits the market. Younger people nowadays are going and buying vinyl and physical 8 and 16-bit videos games. People still buy dvds. Perfect reproductions of the original 80's Star Wars and He-Man figures line the shelves at Target. There are a lot of people who want to take a time machine and experience pop culture like it's 1985 or 1990 or 1995 or even 2000. Planned obsolescence only worked before because there was no ebay or Amazon. If you wanted something from the 80's during the 90's, you'd have to go and hunt it down in some flea market or indie store. People will probably still want stereo up until technology delivers something that makes Atmos look primitive. But by then AI might be able to generate songs and we'll have computers capable of running plugins that are exact clones of hardware. We'll see some big changes over the next few years, that's for sure.
I've already seen some Atmos speaker rigs listed for sale, I hope they didn't take too much of a hit! Bob Clearmountain had a few videos on instagram that highlighted the trouble with a lot of the Atmos mixes of classics albums. Many are being done without the knowledge and/or input of the artist or original mix engineer. It's so messed up! Here you had the GOAT mixer making a public plea to labels to just contact him for some of his most classic work and he'd be glad to do the Atmos version. It's absolutely insane the way it's all being done. I agree with you, this haphazard approach of just getting an Atmos version out there is going to bite them in the butt in the end. Having said all that, even with more time and skill, I still don't think it's a good format for music in most all situations. I've done much more critical a/b listening to stereo vs Atmos versions since I made this video and my opinion of it has worsened by quite a bit.
@@SeawellStudios I’ve listened to a few more Atmos mixes on Tidal using headphones lately and I don’t hear any improvements. They’re still sapping the classics of much of their original dynamic range and the stereo field is maybe 5-10% wider. A classic album with a DR5-6 range is much worse than a lot of modern ones with that little range.
It would make sense for Atmos mixes and masters to have a totally unique approach. Instead it seems that too many are just using the same flawed methodology that they use for current remasters. It has to wow people who are using traditional stereo systems and phones along with those who have specialized Atmos rigs for listening. Why would I want to invest in new listening hardware just to hear a bunch of things mixed and mastered all wrong?
With what you’re reporting, it sounds like the labels are mainly interested in pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes and hoping nobody notices.
As a listener who went all in with quadraphonic back in the 1970s, both the SQ matrix and CD-4 vinyl (which required a special phono cartridge), discrete 4 channel reel to reel, discrete 8 track, the extra speakers and even quad headphones. Quad never made it to cassette and while FM stations only needed to play SQ records to have listeners hear it in quad, very few bothered. By 1977, quad recordings were vanishing and by 1980 it was gone. It should be no surprise that I haven't bothered with surround or video. With all the home theater installations, where are the surround sound audio recordings? Yes, a few have been released but not that many. As a Logic user I've listened to some Atmos demos over phones and it sounded cool but it just reminded me of my quad experience...wait and see.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I think it's important for those that haven't experienced a surround sound hype train before to hear from those that have seen it come and go many times over so that they don't fear they are going to miss out if they don't get into huge debt to get on board.
folk661 wrote “Our brains are already Atmos” - they nailed it in one line!
I regard Atmos for the audio (=streaming!) market as a scalability format that should allow an “optimised” listening experience across all consumer levels. This puts the onus onto the studios/engineers to provide a maximum experience at the level they are currently capable of. Perhaps distribution should consider classifying Atmos streams as “mixed for x listening”, where x is anything from mono, stereo, binaural, immersive, surround 5.1, surround 7.1, etc.
Working model: Artists -> Studio capability -> Atmos -> Distributor -> Consumer -> Strangler -> Consumer Environment -> Ears (currently two) -> Brain -> An experimental, individual interpretation of the artists’ performance!
I could not believe how good the music of Guardians of the Galaxy 3 sounded in an Atmos Theater: better than anything I’d ever experienced. Conversely, I like most people, I consume all my music on earphones or at home in 2.1, and this is where the argument of Atmos falls apart completely. It’s simply a format for audiophiles who are a very very very small part of the audience; albeit a vocal one. There’s a reason Steve Wilson primarily mixes prog: no one else gives a ****.
Man, I bet that was awesome! I watched it at home(I have a 5.1 system in my living room) but I can imagine the theater/atmos experience was amazing.
Atmos is masquerading as a retro nostalgic format war, that no-one really cares about. My view is Atmos has a place in specialist venues - movie theatres, theme parks and heaphone based gaming but I do not see consumers investing seriously in this.
We are at a consumer saturation point, once we may have understandably desired film to be in colour, sound to be in stereo, TVs to have better definition, for them to be larger. But there is not any actual appetite for what is at best described luxury on top of luxury.
The sales of 3D TVs should tell us something about consumer fatigue, we have become educated and wise to the short term thrill and long term misery of buying aspirational items in the hope it will enhance who we are. But after a certain point, these things become a tedious responsibility we are all familiar with. We know every new piece of tech requires maintenance, upgrades, updates, storage, downloads etc and its not what buyers want in 2023.
Today, we want items that get out of our way.
Moreover, Atmos represents to me an out of touch manufacturing base that believes that with enough pressure and propaganda, they can tell us what we have to own, and if they succeed, not only do they sell us an entirely new studio/home hifi, but once more all the same releases…Pink Floyd in Atmos! Hear it as it was ment to be heared! Likewise various Beatles albums et al.
I see Atmos as a watershed moment for consumers, that market forces is ultimately a healthy form of meritocracy and prevails against a cynical, obvious attempt to force a product upon us. It is a moment in which marketing departments learn that they don’t have as much control over us as they might currently believe.
Very well said Jon! Thank you so much for taking the time to contribute to the conversation, I think you're spot on.
Couldn’t agree more, 100%
UA-cam fed me your video because I also had concerns a few months back thinking it may be total TOTAL BS, you did a good job summarizing Howe stands to survive if people treat the standard with respect that is required to make this whole thing worth it.
Thanks man, i really appreciate it, enlight me a lot!!
I’m so glad you found it useful! I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment 👊🏼
My concern from a consumer point of view is that people will start to accept 'Atmos' as sounding normal, just like MP3s have become 'just great' with normal consumers - standards lower and quality is no longer a priority. I don't mix in Atmos for all the reasons you have given, just not worth it. Ha, reminds me of mixing in the 70s for Quadraphonic and we all know how well that went. Great vid man 👍
Thanks! I'm so glad you enjoyed the video. That is a scary thought. Way back when Napster hit the scene, the first song I heard downloaded from there was compressed(MP3) so horribly that I thought there's no way people would enjoy that....I was wrong. It sounded like the song was playing under water but it was "free." Thanks for taking the time to watch and for sharing your thoughts!
I agree. Here's the thing, if the top guys in the music industry adopt Atmos and it's lucrative for them everybody else will follow. But for that to happen I think the masses have to adopt listening to their entrainment in atmos speaker environments and that's not happening anytime soon. seems like this is a Apple thing they're trying to push to further differentiate themselves from other competition.
I'd be curious to see if this move has made a dent in the gap between Apple and Spotify at all. If that mass adoption doesn't happen, the labels will stop doing it pretty quickly because it just isn't brining in any new, appreciable revenue.
Thank you very much for this insight. The topic popped up recently in my workplace and what you say perfectly sums up my thoughts on it. Thank you!
You’re so welcome! I truly appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment 👊🏼
Great video. Eye-opening too. Thanks.
I'm so glad you found the video useful! Thank you for taking the time to watch and comment, I really appreciate it.
ATMOS for music is straight up dumb. Here’s why…
1. It’s Proprietary and not an open standard…
2. 99% of people listening to it will be listening on headphones or in a car.. both situations where the integrity of mix will be heavily compromised. (Headphone spatial emulation is nowhere near as good as sitting in a fully spec’d atmos studio and all but the most expensive cars will have meh at best atmos translation)
3. All of the financial reasons you list in your video for how it makes no real sense for creators to outfit their studios en masse.
4. Most people do not care, the song is king, the mix is whatever as long as it reaches a comparable bar of fidelity with most other music (fidelity not spatial immersion)… we’re living in a world where most people listen to music on their phone, laptop or mono speaker/voice assistant and suddenly the industry thinks everyone is going to want this amazing immersive audio experience that they’ll be outfitting their homes… not going to happen… people had better stereo equipment in the 90’s than they do now. Music, unfortunately is simply not as important as it used to be to most people.. it’s for dancing and partying at best and background for most others. In reality, music fidelity and immersion means the most to the people creating it… then it’s all downhill from there.
5. A good song is a good song is a good song. Mono, Stereo, Spatial, as said above the song is king.
So, you want to mix in atmos? excited about the latest tech innovation for music but don’t have tens of thousands of dollars to drop on hardware and room setup with no financial upside? No worries, mix on headphones and experience it the way 99% of the end users will experience it anyways.
Another comment mentioned that this is because apple wants to push the vision Pro… and if that’s the case, that reinforces the idea of only going as far as headphones with it even further because everyone using the vision pro will be listening on it’s headphones also… hell it might even just make sense to buy a vision pro for the high price that it is and start mixing on it. Still cheaper than outfitting your studio, you’ll be mixing on a reference standard for the majority of your user base AND you get a fun new toy to muck about on.
Thanks for the video!
Cheers
One economic "build out" approach I've seen a couple of small studios successfully take is this - the EQ and "finishing" of the mixes only happens in stereo on their primary (hi quality) monitors. Their atmos speakers are very low budget and they are only using those speakers as reference for immersive placement (one engineer calls this his re-channelling pass).
I have been wondering about this too.
You could probably pickup a dozen used KRK RP-5s for about $1k and build a small 7.1.4 set-up. Not sure how acceptable it would be, but could be interesting.
@@matthewharrison7868
Like an old TV surround setup?
You would need your ATMOS decoder, then probably could do a straight hookup to the power section. You’d probably need a second one for the ceiling, but that quite cheap.
The big question will be if it’s usable for mixing? 🤔
Conceptually, it should work.
@@matthewharrison7868
It would probably be a good, cheap, method when using passive speakers. Probably the best way to get a dozen power sections for little $$.
The ATMOS pre-amp/decoder is more problematic. 🤔
You still need something that is computer/DAW compatible, like a Atmos friendly I/O with ~16 output channels.
Great video, Josh. I've said from the get go, ATMOS is going nowhere for music, I watched QUAD and 5.1 and this is just the next time/money waster for music people. It's cool for going to the theatre, but MUSIC is meant to come from in front of you. I think that's what it boils down to. You go to a music performance and the players are in front of you. There is a perception kind of built into our experiences,
I'm so glad you enjoyed it Tony! That you for taking the time to watch it and share your thoughts. That experience of a live show and how the band is presented to us definitely seems to be a hurdle that is going to be awfully hard to overcome. A good bit of the performance is visual so naturally we wouldn't want to have to keep rotating in a circle to watch different band members during a show. It's a pretty odd thing to think about and I think that contributes to the disconnect our brain is having while listening to Atmos.
Excellent view of ATMOS. I like this channel and have subscribed. Looking forward to more of your perspective and guidance :)
Thanks so much for subscribing! I hope you'll find more here that you'll find useful and enjoyable. Glad to have you here!
I like 3D panning, but Atmos may be overkill when it comes to music. And Dolby Atmos seems very macOS-centric. If they make their 3D panner for Windows I might consider trying it.
Consumer here and tremendously excited to upgrade my current 4.0 system to 7(6).2.4 Atmos system with Dirac next year!
I just got 5.1 downmixed to 4.0 working and it's blown me away entirely, can't wait to hear an immersive sound setup.
My primary use is gaming, but I currently use Nugen Halo to upmix stereo music, and some of it really sounds more enjoyable to my ears. I enjoy envelopment, and stereo has none.
Very cool! What games are you playing on that set up? Do you listen to music on it at all or just primarily for gaming?
@@SeawellStudios Fallout 4 and Thief: Deadly Shadows (yes, a game from 2004! I was pleasantly surprised that even games from 1999 support native 7ch output!)
primarily for gaming but plenty of music!
I got into the music I listened to as a teen, as it seems almost all big 70s progrock albums have a 5.1 mix available 😅
Apart from that I listen to jazz, jazz fusion and drum n bass, most of which I upmix if it's in stereo (I know it's blasphemous, I just can't help myself, I've completely fallen victim to aural envelopment).
My setup currently consists of two Monolith 12 THX subwoofers, placed in 1/4 3/4 positions along front wall (courtesy of findings in Dr. Floyd Toole's book), my fronts are Neumann KH120 and my surrounds are Kali IN-8v2, all main speakers equidistant to listening position. I use manual correction with REW
@@Gamez4eveRthat's awesome! I'm so glad you've got a set up you're enjoying. That is surprising so many of the older games offer some sort of surround format, I wouldn't have expected that. Very cool.
Great video. Thanks for looking out for your fellow man.
Thank you! I am and always will be a self-taught home studio guy even though I've been blessed to do it full-time for so many years. I'll never forget what it's like just starting out and working your way up. Home studio and independent studio people are my kind of people 😁
I remember 10 years ago buying a new 55 inch lcd TV and decided to get a 3D Sony Bravia. Hey why not? It came with TWO sets of active goggles and was the "future" of home theatre! Look at what's available today and damned if anyone is even MAKING 3D televisions anymore? The first few movies I bought AND paid extra for BluRay 3D discs were "Wow this is cool!". Still have a dozen 3D discs gathering dust. I agree and think ATMOS may go the same way. It's expensive and you need a dedicated room to set it up correctly, so I think you have a very valid point!
Oh and I sold the Sony Bravia in favour of a Samsung UHD 2D TV and only on the ODD occasion feel like the 3D experrience. I mean when was the last time you could watch a latest release blockbuster in 3D at the Cinemas? Yeh sure James Cameron filmed Avatar: The Way of Water: in 3D but how many people have seen it in 3D? And is anybody streaming 3D to our smart TV's these days?
Great point! It's easy to forget the hype some of these things had. The barrier of entry has to be really low for mass adoption and an Atmos system that actually sounds worth a darn is fairly expensive and particularly as far as placing speakers on the ceiling, etc.. The fact that people didn't even want to deal with 3D glasses makes me think the Apple Vision Pro isn't going to make nearly the splash some think it is. I appreciate you taking the time to watch and contribute to the conversation!
I remember when quadraphonic records were launched (yes, I'm a quite old senior audio engineer, lol). It was an excitement for audiophiles but costly for regular Music consumer; they didn't feel enthusiastic enough to pay a (quite) high money to get 'so little benefit' for their ears. Maybe the same destiny can happen with Atmos. Maybe not. I wish success to those adventuring with this. In the meantime, there's a lot to learn and dedicate to my stereo mixes to sound spaced, airy and meaningful - and that's what I'll keep doing.
Oh yeah? I remember when i finally upgraded from my cassette walkman to a CD player walkman and it skipped like a mf and then I finally got one with anti skip protection. I was poor so I would always buy cassette tapes over CDs.
@@AFRoSHEENT3ARCMICHAEL69 Yeah, the Discman skipping made me stick to cassettes before the mp3 era. I wish I had known about MD at the time though
I have many thoughts about ATMOS, and as someone currently building a studio, I've been trying to wrap my head around how the costs will work for me and clients coming in. I'm sort of where you are at with it, I'm not sure they've solved the consumer side yet (although I'm sure they are working hard on it).
Little side note: My biggest takeaway from listening in 9.1.4 is that if ATMOS is going to be the new standard, we need to rethink tracking. Specifically, stereo microphone techniques. I found that mono sources and multi-axis (5+ mics) sources translated exponentially better than stereo mics.
I'm so glad you raised the point about tracking! I completely agree and if it ends up we need to starting tracking all with ambisonic mics I may just retire 🤣. Seriously though, great tip about stereo miced sources, I have found that to be the same and I really appreciate you bringing that tip to the discussion! Awesome, thanks Aidan.
@@SeawellStudios There's also the issue of mixbus compression... ATMOS (in speakers) has amazing headroom, it's really refreshing, but when it's folded into stereo.. how do we deal with these two completely different approaches to "glue" - ATMOS is essentially "unglued".
@@aidanknight Another great point! At first the headroom and space feels limitless but then sometimes you're reminded why we try and glue things together like we do with buss compressors 😁 It definitely concerns me that a fan could be hearing 2 very different representations of your music depending on Atmos or Stereo if there isn't a lot of care and attention put into both. I'm of the mindset to do the stereo first and do your usual best there and then try and create an Atmos mix that honors the stereo and isn't something wildly different. What a crazy time to be alive 🤣
@@aidanknight
I think we are at the mercy of Dolby to do the folds/unfolds correctly. It is something we can hope they will improve over time with software revisions … that said, we are giving-up some control there.
Great video! Absolutely nailed what I've been saying about atmos when it comes to the economics! When are you going to do a studio tour?
I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I do need to do a studio tour, I'll see if I can make that happen soon.
great input and insight, thanks! been wondering about the business side of it for a while but don’t really know anyone who works in Atmos (unsurprisingly)
fun fact: i listened to this whole video with upsampled spatial audio on Airpods Pro and it actually sounded fairly pleasant
I'm glad you enjoyed it, thank you for taking the time to watch! I'm glad the video translated well to spatial audio 😁
If it’s between optimizing for Atmos and optimizing for a Bluetooth speaker, which one are you choosing?
Bluetooth speakers are mono. Most people I know won’t even buy a proper 2.1 system.
Great point, I check all my stereo mixes in mono 👍🏼
Hi Josh, things are constantly changing, also at Dolby. We are talking directly to them about all this. If spatial audio, or Atmos in that regard, is ever to take off massively, production has to be done on headphones mainly, because most consumers can only listen to it on headphones and they even don't have a soundbar, what to speak of a proper room with sufficient speakers. Similarly also most producers and artists are having space and money issues with the traditional Atmos approach. It is not easy if you are not get paid extra. That is another reason for actually going the headphone way. You just don't need to invest that much. You are also right that many people don't hear extra quality or quality at all. Like many listen to the cellphone speakers or other torture devices. BUT then you could also opt for mixing in mono, instead of stereo. Well, you don't because you enjoy it and there are also other people who hear the difference.
Bad Atmos mixes, yes there are a lot of them. But think back to the beginnings of stereo and the first "stereo" Beatles album. Drums left, singer right. I think we are in the same situation for spatial audio and mixing engineers, even the experienced ones, have to figure out, how to REALLY mix in these new formats. I think you can do mixes that really are way better than stereo when listened to them on headphones using the binaural experience of Atmos. Traditional stereo mixes are done on speakers, so they should be listened to on speakers, not headphones. For headphone listening one should mix on/for headphones since the mixing decisions are sooo different there. And one should really think about it since most music is listened to on headphones statistically.
All that being said, a good starting point to get into Dolby Atmos mixing without spending too much is using your favourite headphones which you really know well. Of course we recommend our Dolby Atmos Composer plugin since it is working on any DAW and OS. So you don't need to switch away from your favourite system and you can easily adapt your existing mixes to Atmos. We will publish more tutorials with real life mixing tips and tricks to get you to actually mix in Atmos and get both Atmos and Stereo as the result without much extra effort. Bang for the buck, so to say. It is possible but like with all new things you have to learn how to get there.
It sounds like we are on the same page. I think pushing forward in headphones and figuring it out there could actually put you in a more advantageous spot than someone with a speaker Atmos rig. We'll see but that's my hope and plan for now.
I'd love to hear more about your plug ins. How would they differ from the Dolby Atmos Renderer I'm currently using with Pro Tools? Thanks.
Thanks for making!
You're so welcome and thank you for taking the time to watch!
Instant subscribe from me. Quite literally the most honest engineer review - love the bit on the Mayer concert.
Thank you Brendan! I really appreciate you sharing the video and helping spread the word.
Atmos is pushed so aggressively because of fees equipment manufacturers must pay to dolby
Yeah maybe Dolby is not making enough money anymore because b c and Hx pro are no longer needed.
Solo tengo dos orejas .
Great point!
Your beats are always cool. You recording the stuff to tape was also great. ✌️
I'm really just waiting for this to blow over. You are exactly right. There is no way the people I know will pay for a playback system. It's just not feasible. I believe it's a big push for selling speakers, and apple products. The biggest contributor to pushing ATMOS is Apple when they only hold 13.7% of the online streaming business. I guess they figure they need to come up with something to make more money. Oh! and by the way you aren't the only engineer that has said "Not one of their clients want an ATMOS mix". Great video!
Serbans atmos mix of the Thriller album is crazy though… it’s hard to go back to the stereo one if you’ve heard the atmos mixes. Especially on Sonos Arc etc.. But that’s the best, least distracting mix I’ve heard. And that’s also because I’m familiar with the album as well maybe. But it does sound wonderful.
Thanks for the recommendation I will check that one out!
We were treated to a transformative new way of listening to Thriller in 2022, and it wasn't the Atmos mix. Have you heard the MoFi SACD that came out at the same time? Because that one's not hard to go back to. The Atmos mix probably sounds 'best' by virtue of almost every other digital version sounding like ass.
@@ChrisStoneinator the SACD mix that has been out for about 20yrs now? Or is there another mix?
I think SACD is about resolution but ATMOS is really about the placement of instruments in a mix. I think the atmos mix brings out sounds you didn’t really know were there before and makes them more prominent.
Height brings more space and overall clarity / separation. But the mixer has to work hard for it to be worthwhile. I think serban did a great job because it’s MJ and it worth working hard on it.
@@SuperALBSURE I've listened to the Atmos and it definitely does what you're describing, but there's also far too much that it outright ruins IMO.
And there is a new SACD, done by Mobile Fidelity. Not always the biggest fan of their CD releases/layers but this DSD layer really shines. That being said, I haven't heard the original SACD which is said to be a very flat transfer; not necessarily my thing especially for an album like this, but some have said they're spellbound by it!
@@ChrisStoneinator i suppose it’s all subjective. All I did was compare the mix on my Apple TV / Sonos arc setup with I think the Amazon music one which I think was ultra HD.
I don’t have a proper SACD player anymore but I think they’re all playable on computers as they are just digital files right? Not sure.
I think the reality with ATMOS or any format (even original stereo) is that the musicians / producers need to make it music with the format in mind from the beginning to really get the best out of it. Converting stereo tracks will always be hit and miss.
As an audiophile (headphones), the most holographic music I have heard remains to be 2-channel, single mic recordings. You don't need ATMOS for height nor depth, just a good recording environment and engineers who know what the F they are doing. The best part is, you don't need any new equipment to mix nor enjoy! 🤟😎
I run a (normal) analog-based studio for recording individual artists and my label clients, which is (and likely always will be) a stereo recording studio, but I also work in another much bigger studio, writing and recording music for film and TV, which is always trying to be on the cutting edge.
The giant studio made the jump to Atmos about 18 months ago, after testing out multiple setups (I ultimately convinced them to go with a HEDD speaker setup for the Atmos, as I've been using their Type 30 Mk2's in my studio for a few years now and they're incredible).
I will say, sure, listening to the Atmos setup IN the Atmos studio is a pretty cool experience, but generally not for music. You can listen to the scores and soundtracks for most films and SO much of that music is still mixed in stereo. Also, arguably more important for film, would be the dialogue, which is fully centered 99% of the time.
Like, for films, if we're recording an orchestra, with the ways orchestras are generally recorded, it doesn't make a ton of sense to mix in Atmos. Orchestras are usually done with 5 mics or less, any more and it starts to upset the balance of the orchestra, especially if you start panning things via spatial-audio. It doesn't take long to utterly ruin an orchestra-mix if you're using crazy surround-style panning. After all, there is a reason orchestras stage themselves the way that they do, and it's rooted in theories established in the days before recording was done even in full Mono, so to translate that to Atmos, just doesn't quite work.
In film and TV, Atmos makes the most sense for sound effects and that type of stuff, because those are usually single-source sounds and can be panned and automated anywhere, but keeping the music in stereo is essentially what keeps a film's full audio-mix sounding balanced.
When too many elements of a film mix are spread out "spatially", it just sounds wrong.
Take a film like "Tenet" for example, the entire mix for that film is an utter mess, because of a massive over use of spatial audio junk. It's a really hard film to pay attention to, because not only is the film itself fairly convoluted and not-at-all straightforward to follow, but everything in the soundtrack is panned all over the place, so dialogue is often muffled and moving around, the music just sounds like a mess because both the orchestral and electronic elements of the score are also moving around constantly, and the effect all this has on the movie is that it becomes just a huge cacophony of noisy sound and visuals.
For doing records, you nailed the point when you talked about the clients you have who simply aren't interested in doing their albums in Atmos.
I'm in the same boat, where I haven't really had a single band or artist even request it yet. I've talked about it with some of my clients, and even some record label reps, and neither are particularly interested in Atmos, or "Spatial Audio".
The only "artists" I've seen really try and even use it are the top 1% pop-artists, like The Weeknd, when they partner up with Disney or something to make some kind of goofy music-video-movie, but I can say for sure I haven't had any interest from bands and even clients who *are* making slightly-poppy music.
I really see it as just another passing fad, especially because of Apple's push for it with their weird Apple Vision thing.
Also, the way Atmos folds down into stereo really does not have any advantage. It can *maybe* make certain reverb and delay effects sound a bit different, but it causes all kinds of phase issues, and I am slightly obsessive about phase in my recordings and mixes.
I've done a ton of Atmos experiments at this point, and I just can't find the use for it, outside of some sound FX in film.
Thanks for your honest thoughts. I agree 100%. I'm only a pure newbie, but please let me share with you some of my thoughts: first thing first... "they" want money, they want to sell, this is their business, and specifically they want we CONTINUE to buy. They want something new to sell, but "something new" is always the SAME thing we periodically re-buy. Said that (as a general principle), let's dive into the specs: Atmos is the commercial, rigid, illogical version of the free and easy Ambisonic. Obviously Apple preferred Dolby paid version of that (please, don't call it "format", it's merely a commercial version...) simply because money business is a self-sustaining market. I'm an indipendent artist and I'm producing a movie-thing, so I started to ask myself: Atmos or not Atmos, that translates into Logic/ProTools+400$dolbyPlugin+$$$for spatial plugins/reverbes/etc.... My answer is: Ambisonic (free) on Reaper (free and PERFECT for multitrack things) and IEM spatial plugins (free). With this (...free...) setup you can mix directly in Ambisonic (headphones monitoring via IEM plugin) and you obtain a sort of audio-sphere. Finally, you can take your sphere and convert that in any last/ultimative/fashion format you want (merely buying the Dolby plugin if you need). The point is: Atmos will die (soon or later), whilst your Ambisonic-sphere is future-proof. Said that, ALL this discussion about technology is a "subprime": "they" want we believe that all this stuff is SO important and we HAVE to buy it... But - see - I'm a former calssical pianist, and when I listen to an interpretation I'm interested into the interpretation ITSELF, to the CONTENT, not the technology that I use to hear. I don't care if the first Gould recording of the Goldberg Variations was only in mono, and I don't prefer the second studio version only because it's in stereo, and all my loved Rachmaninov in-person recordings are in mono. So what? Should I say they aren't good nowadays? Very last/ultimative/new technology doesn't make music/movies more interesting and enjoyable. I still prefer the first King Kong ;) Just to say: ideas (not technology) makes things great.
Cla calls it “phase *uck” no atmos for me.
🤣
I don't need Atmos I've only got 2 ears, a left and a right.
Subbed. Great video. It's a shame how much we see UA-cam personalities and other big mix engineers with endorsements, shilling this new format so hard when like you say, ultimately the consumer does not care.
I'm so glad you enjoyed it and thank you so much for the sub! There definitely seems to be some things going on behind the scenes which is why the push seems so contrived and unnatural. I hope some of these people staking their reputations on it think about the long term implications of that and their platform. If you don't have trust in this space, you have nothing.
Hello, my name is Xavier Soranells a musician from Barcelona, Spain. I just susbribed your channel because It made so much sense all you have explained, I have to say though It'd be nice to have a talk about the Atmos mixing. Anyway thank you for how well you explain things. Best regards, Xavier Soranells
Hello Xavier! Thank you so much for subscribing, I appreciate it so much! I do plan on making content on how I mix in Atmos in the future. I definitely want to help anyone interested in learning.
Re staying power - for movies/soundtracks atmos/immersive is great and is here to stay. I would agree with you that whether or not "immersive" music mixes have staying power is a huge question.
Great video. This puts the case perfectly.
I’m so glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for taking the time to watch.
I know well-known established mixers who have made the transition successfully but for everyone else I see it as a high risk gamble with a big chance of not paying off. You make some great points.
I completely agree, I think for some it makes total sense and if I were in their position I would absolutely do the same.
I personally agree with everything you said and really appreciate your honesty and well thought detail and advice. Great video!
Thanks so much Craig! I really appreciate you taking the time to watch.
Perfectly valid points across the board; good video!
Thanks so much!
amazing video from your perspective!
Thanks so much!
I agree. My history; 78-rpm classical, band/choir in live areas, “Decca Tree” stereo, Quad (discreet), live orchestra/theatre, 2.1/5.1/7.1, now adding “dome light” speakers? At what cost to the sound and wallet? My vote is still “Live Music is Best” (American Federation of Musicians motto).
I agree, I think the live music experience is still the pinnacle which is why I think Atmos is a strange experience for many because the sound placement doesn't match what our eyes are used to seeing in regards to how a band performs.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this topic with us. I feel like you do for the most part. Currently, for me it is to cost prohibitive. I need to keep my eyes on the industry and see how things play out, at least until we move and try to make a wise (hopefully) decision before designing a new studio space. I am grateful for your input on this topic it is just good common sense to learn via Logic (for me) using headphones and get some experience albeit minor, before investing in any major gear purchases. Great video!!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it and I appreciate you taking the time to watch! I've done some immersive mixing in Logic and found it to be more intuitive and easier than Pro Tools in a lot of ways so I think you'll enjoy it!
Very well said my friend and I agree with you totally
Thank you! 👊🏼
Thanks! Glad you get it!!!
Thank you so much!!!
You make your point brilliantly, it forces me to subscribe and to say thank you. I was in the industry back, then, and believe me, a lot of my friends bought ought quadraphonic systems and wow did those go bye-bye with a thud. Again, thank you and I look forward to listening to a lot more of your stuff.
That subscription means the world to me and I hope I'll have more content here that you'll find useful! Thank you.
Wow the most elaborate video I seen on ATMOS and it’s current state, thank you for this 🙏🏻
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Than you so much for taking the time to watch.
Josh, thank you for addressing this issue with such a great and well perspectived video. The economics of this are something that can't be ignored, regardless of how 'cool' the technology is, especially for us working guys who can't just drop thousands on something that's so experimental and untested commercially.
I recently took my students for a tour of Music Industry Arts - Fanshawe College where I studied, and Mike the guy giving us the tour showed them an Atmos mix he'd done in studio 2.
It sounded great, and it was certainly a cool experience, but I immediately felt the same way I felt back in 07 when I was in the same room doing my 7.1 surround mix for my final project. It's cool, but this isn't practical, no one is going to be walking around listening to Atmos tracks, will they? He even said he did it to learn, so he could teach, but ultimately it's the biggest guys with the biggest credits doing the atmos work anyway. So does that even require any of us except the biggest mixers to consider it? Is CLA doing Atmos?
This just seems like surround mixing 2.0 and it never caught on for the everyday consumer either.
Thanks Michael and I truly appreciate you taking the time to watch and contribute to the discussion. I'm starting to hear more people mention like you did that they had a similar experience to hearing great surround mixes before. I think that's very important to note as some people want to act like Atmos is this other worldly thing that has never even been approached before.
It will be interesting to see once this back catalog of Atmos re-mixes phase dries up to see how much new work is going to be out there. I guess we'll see how big the push is going to continue to be around the next NAMM 🤣
Very nice U Tube, from a consumer point of view (ME) I already had a 5.1 set up so all I needed was 2 more additional speakers and a Dolby Atmos AV unit, cost about £1,000 pounds, so my set up is two front two side two height one centre 2 subs, my av takes care of the surround but the great thing is that there is a analog output to my other stereo amp with takes care of the front left right speakers, now I agree that from scratch a proper set up will be expensive and you have to be careful what you buy.
But I have to say my experience of Atmos is a very good one although I only have 10 music DS titles, the first one was Abbey Road by the Beatles, and lord Almighty what a sonic treat, so if done right its worth it, my criticism is this many of the DA titles are buried within very expensive box sets, I wish bands would release stand alone albums.
Thanks for taking the time to watch and share your experience! I've thought about the physical distribution side and it seems like Blu-Ray would be the most effective way to deliver the highest quality. It's a shame cars don't have a disc drive of any type these days so we're sort of stuck with streaming in that environment. Unfortunately I just don't think there's enough revenue on the music side of Atmos to get artists to release any sort of high quality physical format unless it's like you mentioned, included in a box set or something along those lines. I'm glad you have found a handful that you're really enjoying though, I need to check out the Abbey Road one.
I agree
I wanted an atmos rig just for me, not solely because it’ll make me money but it hasn’t happened yet
Excellent Appreciation. I once saw a UA-cam video declaring Home Studios will disappear soon due to Atmos Technology.Particularly myself, and many of my Left and Right customers are not afraid of it. We are still working hard to get a Mud Free, Sparkling Stereo Mix.
I know there are those that want to push that narrative but I'd put my money on home studios surviving longer than Atmos studios. The financials of the industry overall are pushing more artists to record in home studio environments than it is pushing them towards spending more to make Atmos versions.
@@SeawellStudiosi definitely Agree
Your concert story reminded me about a section in a book I read semi recently called How Music Got Free - audio engineers and marketers were apparently confused at the early success of awful sounding MP3 encodes, because CD offered Perfect Sound. But most customers didn’t care so long as it sounded about as good as poor-signal FM radio. I’ve always been a very critical listener so I don’t personally understand, but it certainly seems to be true for most people I know.
Atmos seems like a naked attempt to sell more speakers and not much else. And indeed a lot of people will find the enhanced-surround stuff fun and won’t care if their speakers sound bad. Which is kind of depressing. I can only hope it remains niche like quadraphonic.
That brings me back to the first time I heard a song downloaded from Napster....it sounded like it was underwater! It was crazy but it was "free" so a lot of people were ok with it.
@@SeawellStudios I was a bit late for Napster but had an identical experience with “Bear Share” hahah. Which was mentioned exactly once in the book, with great derision, as being a terrible clone. Which sounds about right!
Mostly I just let my older brother download things for me at that time though. I don’t know if he was part of The Scene or just friends with one but he always refused to tell me where they came from, and they were always better quality than the public stuff!
@@kaitlyn__L Bear share LOL I don't remember that one. Catchy name though 😁