Men and women after
Вставка
- Опубліковано 1 чер 2018
- Louise Mazanti and David Fuller's previous conversation on the excesses of the #metoo movement - featured in the 'Glitch in the Matrix' documentary - went viral, with over 250,000 people watching (various edits). Four months later, the sense that #metoo has gone too far is widespread, but no-one seems to know what to do next. What does a genuinely evolutionary conversation look like, where both women and men's experiences of the world are heard and valued? And what is Jordan Peterson's role in reviving the spirit of the masculine in the world? David and Louise try to sketch out the terrain.
Rebel Wisdom is hosting a real world event around these issues in London on Tuesday June 5th. Details and tickets here: buytickets.at/rebelwisdom/166218
We are also running men's weekend workshops to develop masculine presence: www.rebelwisdom.co.uk/events/
And will be running our first women's workshop in September: • Women's Weekend Intens...
To help us make more of this great content - please consider supporting Rebel Wisdom on Patreon: / rebelwisdom
Wow, not expecting a Richard Tarnas reference. Passion is on of the best books on philosophy ever
Love Louise Mazanti. So warm and honest
Just listening to her delivery make me believe in myself more. Such kindness, such grace, such genteness, tho you can see she is a tough cookie. Is she magical?
RubberKidney - Nice comment :-)
No, that's a mother AND a woman. Not all women are screaming nutbag SJW's.
It's part joke and part not. Her manner of speaking and delivery really is soothing.
Beware of these types of women. She's saying she's against post modernism but at the same time starts off by saying that her experience as woman is so important. It's probably the most evil comment you can make in these sorts of debates: my experience, not your facts, matter. Oh the narcissism to pull off stuff like that. She will kindly listen and will comment but we first need to agree that her viewpoint, her "lived experience as a woman" is always going to be more important, and after that she can state her "devine feminine facts" in a gentle but slightly condescending way.
Nothing that a woman says can be believed. Ever.
Well done guys, great chat. Nice to see Louise again! Neil.
This is wonderful, Thank you
A very interesting conversation. Thank you
Refreshing, timely and so important: we need to be able to have conversations like this that move beyond reactivity and take us to somewhere both truthful and productive. Exciting to see where this discussion goes with Rebel Wisdom: see you Tuesday in London!
Thank you so much for this video. This is medicine. Hope I can catch the next event.
Until then, have some cheese.
Love her.
There are a lot of great points that both Mazanti and Fuller make in this lofty conversation. Yet I remain very skeptical of how these legitimate points actually will translate into the workplace ethic under the present miasma of misandry around #MeToo. Mazanti states how she felt her voice was less import than men's voices under the old system that I prefer to call the Social Contract (not "the patriarchy") between men and women. I really get what she's saying and it's a very legitimate point. The Social Contract really needed to be changed. Yet the women in my family were strong professional women who did rise to the top under the old system. My aunt, for instance was superintendent of public schools for a large city. She really didn't understand why feminism, particularly the anger, was necessary.
Not discussed in this video is how the #MeToo movement has actually influenced gender relations in a competitive workplace. There is a deep and largely unspoken mistrust of women shared by many men who do work in such a competitive environment; especially when the laws, that feminists demanded were created by the same patriarchy Mazanti disparages, are so stacked against men. The assault on Habias Corpus (bring forth the body) by feminists denies the ability of those men so accused to confront their accusers in court. So too is the removal of the Statute of Limitations meaning there is no time limit for women to accuse men of gender crimes and bring them to court. This is egregious, especially since the feminist movement has been a prevailing force in law and society since the 1980s. And today, it's trial and conviction by accusation alone. So how is the power of a woman to destroy a man's life, even gratuitously, going to be moderated? I think the #MeToo movement is destined to become $MeToo.
Dennis .K that's a very pertinent point you raise in relation to the injustices that men and children face in the the family court arena and the resultant catastrophic effects it creates in society. We can now with certainty attribute every pathological problem many children and adults face as a direct consequence of the decisions judges have made in family court's decisions that have been fuelled by a malevolent disdain for the family born of Marxist ideology that believes a father is irrelevant in a child's life that marriage is a religious construct that facilitates the oppression of women and has no utility in the upbringing of children.
Women do with proclivity arbiter a man's entire life away by the use of draconian powers that have been bestowed on them by a society that has become corrupted with Marxist feminism. Women walk into court obtain occupation orders, molestation orders, restrictive child access orders( which actually degenerate into complete child alienation) on allegations that contain zero evidence to support them allegations that a man has no hope of absolving himself from, reality dictates it will be her word against his and as the benevolent woman and the privilege she has been attributed through a false sense of victim hood the judge will rule in her favour every time.
How has society reduced itself to such depths that it will inflict on men pain of such magnitude that it results in many of them taking their own lives, that with just flick of a pen and impossible to prove pernicious allegations a man, a father can have his entire being be completely destroyed. Society acts this out with glee, by cementing a malevolent narrative encapsulated and framed in the vast majority of our left wing main stream media, a narrative that perpetuates the myth that women are overwhelmingly the majority of victims of domestic violence, that men have a biological predisposition to exert their patriarchal power over women whether that be consciously or subconsciously and this innate excess of power embodies itself in the form of coercive or violent behavior. This myth is in contradiction of the empirical evidence that proves women inflict violence on men with proclivity more than men inflict on women
I believe this aberration is where rebel wisdom ought to focus their energies in why treat an illness of male masculinity when you could cure it by destroying the malevolent culture that exists in today's family court's....
"A slow motion dictatorship of the mind". Yep, that's where we are!
There was a book that came out in the early 90s, King Warrior Magician Lover, that touched on some of these things. Extremely prophetic. It was mostly about the male shadow and psyche but briefly touched on the female shadow and was very insightful.
Intelligent women like this stimulate my brain, makes me wanna listen to her speak all day.
A great conversation
I don't see women being very grounded. I've had conversations with men and women at work about the differences between the sexes. I've been taken to HR because I've said something a woman didn't like. She (an assumption to be forthright) made a false claim that I said 'women can't be engineers'. I can't stop talking about things that I think are false and I may get terminated for it.
I don't see the feminine as positive force on macro scale (society). It is absolutely required on the micro scale (family). However, even on the scale of the family the feminine should only be paramount from 0-1 years, reduce to a balance with masculinity at 4-6 years and then end at 14 years.
I came across a beautiful illustration of how to acknowledge the differences between the sexes, teach boys and girls and maximize the output for each. Have the class read the book 'Lord of the Flies'. Have the girls write an essay on how one of the characters feels. Have the boys create a map of the island. I hope to live in that world. This option will not be tolerated in our current system (which is highly feminized). How can we change this?
The feminine must be tamped down on a societal level to be have a fair, effective and successful society/culture. I'm open to discuss on this topic. Do you think women would allow me to speak? (See 1st paragraph).
Isa No, what is pathological is that HR had to be involved in the first place.
This is exactly what was being said in this video about women and their shadows. This women did not speaking out or taking a stand, but embracing victimhood. Making up claims, due to hurt feeling, in order to get some kind of sick revenge. That is not the actions of a healthy person, but someone who need to see a therapist.
Isa I agree with you. It not professional, but lying to a HR department is not professional either! If you dont want to hear what someone has to say creating vicious rumours and allegations is not the professional thing to do and you know it. Could you image how you would feel if someone did that to you or a male coworker you know or even a male member of your family?
These kinds of lies have far more lasting effects then trying to talk to a co-worker about non job related issues. This man could have a wife and kids to support, but lets ruin his life because he talked about a non work related topic, really come on.
If your father told you he hated is job because of a female co-worker lying to HR would you really blame him?
The fact that some women would stoop to such vengeful actions is why many men stick to youtube and the internet. You may not care, but this is a problem for women because their are a small groups of women that are giving ALL women a bad name.
This is why you have political minded mens rights, mgtow, anti- feminist and guys like Jordan Peterson become so popular by speaking out.
+Isa I have a difficult time standing by idling when false statements are made. I am also truly interested in how and what people think. I am aware that this can put me in jeopardy. However, to let false statements go unchallenged is to accept them as true. We all loose in that world.
Yes, I am interested. I find Peterson very challenging. I think allowing women to participate to the best of their abilities is a plus for society. But it's obvious our society has been feminized and this has negative effects. Competition is bad. All aggression is bad. Boys are treated as defected girls. This is my concern.
So you want to teach girls highly useful and widely applicable skills while teaching boys highly specialized skills that 99 out of 100 people will replace with smartphones? That that sound like a conservative.
I have a question - in myth, what tends to happen when the chaotic feminine constellates? Some kind of Apollonian brick wall? Or something much worse - war?
I have always wanted to know the feelings of the men in front of that huge amount of accusations thrown at all them, being guilty or not. David's reaction on min 11:33 has been the complete answer I have been looking for
Who cares, damage is done
The patriarch has been dead for some time now. Lazy people call it that and pretend it is still operative because men had always already been there in society, so it is assumed that it is a patriarch. In the 50's there were groups that did justify paying women less because the men were expected to support the household, while women stayed home for the family. When that paradigm died, and America became the two income households of the 60's, the patriarch died. Society had become the competence hierarchy. It has taken time for women to become competent and to have time to gain the experience to demonstrate the competence. Just like men, women have to gain the experience now to be acknowledged as having competence. People are not instantly experienced and that is the source of the backlash. The generation ahead of current generations are by definition, more experienced, and now come under fire for being a patriarch. It is far too easy and lazy a claim. It is also why Peterson says it takes generations for the new normal to be assimilated. It takes several generations for a person to work through their career to retirement. Until the first generation passes out of the career path, the feminine will be behind the experiential curve. People like to forget that it was the very last patriarchal generation that has opened the opportunity for them in the first place. It has been the instant gratification generation, that expects everything to be handed over immediately, and without the effort that previous generations had to expend to gain their positions to date. It is by far much more complex a task than to just jump into without catastrophic results, than people perceive. For women it is, and has to be much harder, because there have not been any, and now many models for them, to follow as a competence hierarchy, pattern or example for them. They have to blaze that trail as unknown territory, because by definition, men cannot define it for them. Trying to feminize men is by far a huge mistake, as it only detracts from the male human pattern, just as trying to pattern women as to becoming more male in society, detracts from their abilities. This isn't saying one or the other is a derogation. It is that they are just different. Red and Green are both colors, of equal value, but they are intrinsically different. An artist that has only used one color over the other, has to take the time to learn to apply the new color, and integrate it into the paradigm properly to gain the best effect. It takes time and careful experimentation to learn to blend the colors and find the processes that actually work.
the patriachy basically ended when women were given a right to vote.
An interesting conversation. It focused almost entirely on what the problem is and how men and women feel about the problem. There was almost no time spent on how the problem was to be solved. That's the conversation I want to see, the where do we go from here discussion.
I don't think either party had any answer to that question.
Is inter-gender communication even possible in the post MeToo world, and if so, on what basis should it be conducted?
14:41 Include & Trascend
Too much essentializing here. It’s not helpful to think of masculine and feminine in those terms. Humans are a combination of traits, and men and women actually share the same characteristics; women are not all feminine; men are not all masculine; every human has both masculine and feminine characteristics. Thinking in terms of masculine and feminine categories is another form of identitarian thought. Peterson is smart and thoughtful as a person, and I don’t see him as exclusively masculine, in fact, his teaching ‘clean your room’ is in terms of myth, a feminine type trait. In myth and fairytales, the heroine usually has the impossible task of sorting or organizing a big mess (for example dividing a huge pile of seeds into the different varieties, etc). So if anything, Peterson is asking all of us to engage with the kind of organization or sorting activities that are traditionally associated with feminine characteristics. He is also very nurturing and encouraging; he weeps in public; he shows feminine characteristics and models them. My point is we are all a combination of masculine and feminine characteristics. The synthesis takes place inside each of us on the individual level, but we are not essentially one or the other polarity. It is a mistake to think men are masculine and women are feminine exclusively. we should aim to incorporate all admirable human characteristics into our personalities and our way of life.
U R sharp. and not wrong!)
I don’t care if we are to be the last generation. I have one life and I will do the most of it
I am in love.... wow! What a woman.
I don’t discriminate against anyone. I offer power to all. Keep following me and you will always the have the power of identity and possession with reward....unconditionally! I am that I am. Mr. Condemnation
20:58 not just women, some men like me are outliers too. All of us are capable of understanding spiritual importance that can not be easily defined with our logical structures, but are still equally valid.
The thing I love about what Louise is doing is she's trying to take the rise of the feminine out of the post-modern deconstructionist phase and move it into a constructive value-building phase. That's what we really need to get done IMHO, rebuild both the masculine and feminine virtues in the 21st century and also recalibrate how we value human effort and engagement, how we value things in the economy, it's part of what's also really bothered me about the equity movement pushing for 50/50 male/female CEO's, maybe a better approach would be women pushing to recalibrate the economy of value and recondition what constitutes value to better include their work rather than pushing the button that they're not thriving at the peaks of a game built for males by males.
Given how the sexes evolved (the hunter/protector/provider and the bearer/nurturer of children), history plays out exactly how you would expect it. It isn't a conspiracy that the hunter/protector/providers had the characteristics in which they would predominate history, and we should reserve the term "patriarchy" for when there had been genuine cultural attitudes of male chauvinism/supremacism
Yes. Thank you so much for making this video!
We’ve empowered women and the feminine, but we’ve failed to acknowledge and constrain the negative feminine, at a social level. This failure to see and act has led to the castration of the positive masculine as we replace a male dominant system with a female dominant one, under the pretense that the result is neutral, balanced and fair.
Waylon Flinn Exactly so.
Get back under your bridge, troll!
always that cheese logo in the background ;)
Down voted.
Women won't, haven't changed. Biologically, women want only one thing, and without apology.:
M O R E
That's why this lady is telling we should stand to ourselves and say stop when it's enough...
On some level, that's pretty much what all humans want.
Actually if we take the evolutionary perspective we could describe this journey thus - we have come from depending on hunter gatherer, industrialised age & its freedoms development - the vote for men & then woman, contraception, woman entering the work place, we are on the learning journey of yes woman have freedoms same as men now so lets work out the responsibility which comes like with learning to drive, woman are working on their driving skills and men are having to experience all those lessons. I agree woman need to grow into their freedoms and men need the respect of being the ones who have been handling these responsabilties longer than woman.
Backlash to thousand of years of male "dominations" problem is that we can`t blame the Men of to day for there forefathers "Sins" and even more important, we can`t go backwards in to the future, what done is done and we don`t inherit sin, and not even sin, often a necessity to survive at the time, beside that, it is always the worst examples we put in the spot light, which make the dialogue of to day totally out of balance.
whenever i hear women speak about responsibilities its never a sole admittance its always neutral or group responsibility. say what you need to say directly. stop waffling around >_>
”We (women) don’t want all the power” - really?! Hahaha, ok that is not what I see in today’s society
The politics that springs from or allies with this feminist unconsciousness has been disastrous. The glaring contradictions and absurdity of some of today's issues such as the conflation of illegal with legal immigration, the rise of anti-white racism, the courting of dubious allies (radical islam) are there for all to see. It is the chaotic feminine.
Ohhhh. Look, a Unicorn!!!
Edit: but srysly, she was honest AF. The Synthesis is a phase shift. We won't recognize it at first glance, we won't see it coming, or its form may appear monstrous to one or the other of us. The current zeitgeist is the feminine in both her guises (the green mother/Kali, destroyer of worlds) and Kali is ascendant, who sees clearly the masculine shadow. There was a felt need for the all-father, but who saw what form it would take? JBP ascended the stage and showed it would take integration of all the forms of the all-father throughout our development as a species. The synthesizer, the one who shifts the phase will also be unknown, unseen, coming as a thief in the night. To blow to bits all paradigms and s/he may come too late to save this incarnation of civilization. Maybe one day far in the future some scholars of a better world may ask of us, as we ask of the Maya, why? Why did the mother refuse the father, castrate her sons, devour her daughters? I hope not to witness the death of the West, but it is what it is, and if wishes were kisses...
I was honestly going to downvote this: Why? Because you guys waffled for how long you never got to the point you never talked about solutions you talk about JBP needs to watch himself, yeah because his doing something. You guys aren't you said yeah their is a toxic female shadow, you didn't identify what it was, how to identify it, what to do when your in the presence of it. You said the culture has become feminised, but you never said what should men do? For someone who runs men workshops it seems like your dealing with fairly exclusively feminised men. Men need direction, they need clear commands, they don't need waffle about emotions and a changing of the age. Yes the age has changed blind freddy can see that. This was honestly useless, and I am not saying this to be mean, I am saying this because everyone always licks peoples feet in these comment sections and don't tell hard truths. If your going to talk about the problem talk about solutions even if it is simply here is how you ID the toxic female, don't just waffle. Jesus.
Well said. These people are too late to the party to be leaders.
Agree - it's tough to just come right out with it. JBP said in his interview with Camille Paglia something like - the women need to tell their sisters to quit acting like that (crazy). The man's best defense when confronted with a hostile women is to avoid that at all costs (just ask my husband!). A role of dedicated wife and mother has got to be elevated in our society. You really can't have it all - at least not at the same time. Women are lied to - we're told college and career come first and it's a trap - a financial one in many cases (never ending student loan debt). And when many young women finally do want kids they're desperate because they've waited so long.
How about you take what you saw and come up with solutions yourself? The world is not here just for people giving you solutions. You can think for yourself man!
For solutions you also first need to understand the problem! Finding solutions and conclusions too quickly has got us into this mess!
I have a solution for you. Be less angry.
Why does nobody even try to answer the question "Why should I?". Why should men do a damned thing for a society, and frankly sex, that has spent half a century viciously attacking them on every level? Seriously, its tiresome how many "journalists" explore these ideas without ever, once, ask the person why men should give shit one. Never. Its almost like you already know the answer, and dont like it.
If your in London be careful as a man of their new hate speech laws against men . Maximum of 15 years in jail
Women don't "test" men to see how grounded they are. If a man feels "tested" by a woman, it is likely that the woman is trying to communicate that her needs are not getting met, that she feels dis-empowered to speak that truth as it is, and thus may be communicating indirectly because history of sexism has taught women that she must use subversive means to manipulate a situation to get her needs met because she doesn't outright have the power to facilitate that on her own in a culture where she is seen as a second class citizen. There is a large body of literature from the last seventy plus years which could really add much to this conversation. Please read some of it.
17:20 Here she goes off the rails. Way off.
Abstract thinking dominates Western culture and "somehow" the world culture. That "somehow" is intelligence.
And then to claim that the "Patriarchy" and "masculine thinking" is disconnected from life. No arrogance there, right? On what grounds it that assertion made? What BS! Talk about "disconnected"!
Mate, if you don't think our (Western) culture is disconnected from life, then you're even more disconnected than the society is.
What did women want? Would it bee that kings don't exist in the beehive at renne le chatue
Hi, Folks.
I quit at 5.45 cos there was nothing truly helpful coming out of it to that point.
What TRULY needs to be said is that misnomers like 'toxic masculinity' and 'rape culture' are constructs of the rabid feminist movement and are SEVERE distortions of the current reality. I would suggest that both came from a desire by wannabe powerful feminists to drag men down 'cos they couldn't - or WOULDN'T - take the time to figure out how to raise themselves up to be able to stand alongside men. Instead, they have chosen to try to drag men down to their own level, belittle and shame them for being men - or at least those who 'ackshully' ARE men - and try to make them feel that they are the ones who need to change.
The women of the pioneering days managed to stand alongside their men WITHOUT any of this feminist KRAPPP, without TV, without radio, without books, without marches and without the internet.
The women of the Suffragettes - you don't know who they were, look it up - achieved their goals, not by trying to reduce the standing of men in society but by showing that they, the women of the world, deserved a voice as well.
Now can ANY of you seriously imagine anything LESS feminine than most of screaming, hate-spewing harridans who regularly appear as the 'leaders of the feminist movement? How many of you would want to have to admit that that angry, vitriol-spouting, hate-filled excuse for a woman was your mother - or the mother of your children?
Yes, there are most likely still faults in the 'system', but they won't be fixed any quicker by all this man-bashing and hate and anger towards men. All that achieves is to make men walk away.
Look back over the history of humankind and compare what our earliest ancestors started out with against what most of us in the Western world at least have now. How many of you, male of female, would want to back to live life with those earliest humans?
And now ask yourselves which gender was responsible for ALMOST ALL of the advances that have led to us having the lives that we have today.
YES, women from bygone days DID do their bit to help with those advances. BUTTTT, it was NOT by shouting and screaming abuse and hate at the men of the times but rather by supporting them by caring for them and their mutual children and helping them to heal and get back out into the world when they came home wounded.
And to all you 'manginas' and 'mansplainers' out there, TAKE YOUR TESTICLES OUT OF RETIREMENT and start BEING men again.
Just my 0.02.
You all have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.
She needs to do ASMR
Male experience has been the dominant story paradigm for centuries. What would it be like for men to stay silent so that women's voice could be the dominant paradigm (for, at this point, less than a decade)? This conversation appears to be under the impression that the only inequality is interpersonal, with no reflection on the systemic and institutional power dynamics at play. You don't need to be a sexual predator or rapist to be contributing to misogyny; and, I'm sorry, but metaphorical castration is not the same as actual rape. If David Fuller is cat-called on a daily basis, if he has been rubbed up at a club on a regular basis by individuals he is not interested in, if he has been overpowered by multiple men and gang raped, then I think he might have something to contribute to the conversation. But if he is comparing metaphorical castration with the experience of daily mental and physical assault, this discussion is too reductive to be a valuable contribution to any larger conversation within the context of the #metoo movement and centuries of patriarchy. The #metoo movement hasn't even gotten to the point of complaining about metaphorical ovariectomy because women have been too busy fighting for their physical safety on a regular basis.